Smithers MINNEAPOLIS - Old HALOSCAN comments, please discontinue the use of these comments.
Looks like SuperRookie heading to Blaine on Thursday nights...
I couldn't do much better.
holdin my breath the whole time.. vietnam my ass.. this is worse.. bring back some bike vids.. cripes
That's fucked up. They almost hit that car head-on going the wrong way. On the other hand, it's a no-win situation set up by people fat and safe in Washington to win mid-term elections. What an incredible price to pay.
Freedom is on the march.
Makes me proud to be an American.
+1 for tuffy!
I'll comment.
They actually taught us to always keep moving NO MATTER WHAT. Trust me if your in this same situation which happens every day you'll dive the same way. There is a standard that ALL of Baghdad and other Iraq civilians know and that is to get out of the way of a US convoy (like a cop car in the US.) You notice that most people got out of the way with out the love taps. Besides most of the cars there are junk, it’s the nice ones you have to worry about because the family probably just got tons of money to blow you up in a brand new Ford Mustang…
I wish it was different but its not. And if you have a problem with what’s going on do something about it…
Free Iraq!
It's totally understandable what the troops are doing to keep themselves safe.
But this situation is a total disaster none the less.
I completely agree.
Free Iraq? O.K. let's end our occupation.
Rolling around at 10MPH and bumping cars to make them move seems more effective at illustrating the futility of "the cause" over there, rather than an effective way of avoiding IEDs.
How about you go and talk to a few Iraqi citizens, I’ve been there and done that and they want us there…
My free Iraq statement also included the end of the US “occupation” of Iraq...
But first things first. War, police state (which were in now and US forces suck at this because were trained to fight. Would NATO better?) democracy (I’m saying its better then a dictatorship.) A way to police the democracy and unfortunately the Iraqi “national guard” is not up to the task. And that’s why were in this situation. What would you rather do? Pull out and let a civil war occur? How about letting genocide run thought there country? At what point do you think we should step in? 200,000 murdered? A million?
The best part being an American citizen is that you can have your own opinion and speak it freely with out the fear you’ll get your head cut off. Do you think they have that freedom in Iraq?
I’ll make this clear. Bush is not doing his job. I see no other solutions from the “other side.” The troops are doing what troops do, there not baby sitters there trained to kill. People hate America and Americans and they WILL try to kill you.
Please give me a brighter solution and I’ll be with yeah.
Please give me a brighter solution and I’ll be with yeah.
I'm sorry to say that I don't believe their is a brighter solution. Civil war? Genocide? This is already occurring. The question is, do you want US soldiers in the middle of a civil war?
I don’t.
Sure, it's bad Smithers, but could it get worse?
Death squads and suicide bombings are pretty awful, but certainly Bosnia (for example) was worse? At least no faction has artillery or heavy weapons right now.
It's hard to make choices when it's going to be bad no matter what. All we can do now is choose the least of all available evils.
'All we can do now is choose the least of all available evils.'
Sad, but pretty accurate. These are our options... the most powerful country in the world... lose-lose.
JB
The "other side" has no solution because there isn't a solution.
The pro-war idiots ignored us before the war, and are only now seeing an egg for an egg. All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put Iraq together again.
How about you go and talk to a few Iraqi citizens, I’ve been there and done that and they want us there…
I don't claim to have anywhere near the experience you have with regard to the topic at hand.
But using anecdotal evidence from a handful of conversations with Iraqis is certainly flawed and should not be used in making any sort of large-scale assessments or presumptions.
For instance, if I walked down a street in the heart of Dixie this morning, I'm sure that the majority of folks I'd talk to would support the U.S. occupation of Iraq. But, that wouldn't mean anything, as we know that current data shows that less than half of Americans share their opinion.
As well, I'm guessing that if I'm an anti-American Iraqi, just about the last thing I'm going to do with my time is to talk to U.S. soldiers, AKA The Occupying Force.
And I don't write this as an attack on you, Lalla, but instead to attack flawed evidence such as this being used by those in power to support our presence in Iraq.
And I hope we get out. Soon.
using anecdotal evidence from a handful of conversations with Iraqis is certainly flawed and should not be used in making any sort of large-scale assessments or presumptions.
So... using evidence gleaned from print media, C-SPAN and CNN is a more wholistic approach to evaluating the US' policy in Iraq?
Fucking spare me, dude. You're an armchair cable tv politician arguing with someone who has actually been there.
America doesn't have the stomach to fight or to do nothing.
We are stuck in the middle, trying to implement half-assed solutions so consumed with pointing fingers at eachother in this endless navel gazing / self loathing tizzy that we are simply paralyzed to deal with any global issue effectively.
In the meantime, people starve, genocide is ignored, dictators come to power, nuts have nukes, etc, etc, as we sit back and pat ourselves on the back for having such a lively debate...with no solutions or hope in sight.
In short, we're doomed.
We are stuck in the middle, trying to implement half-assed solutions so consumed with pointing fingers at eachother in this endless navel gazing / self loathing tizzy that we are simply paralyzed to deal with any global issue effectively.
Sounds like having dinner with my family.
Fucking spare me, dude. You're an armchair cable tv politician arguing with someone who has actually been there.
Can't wait to see the response on this one, because no where did I see Tuffy ARGUING with Lalla. If anything he was respectfully disagreeing with him.
Tuffy even pointed out that Lalla WAS there. But, on this topic I agree with Tuffy on the fact that Lalla was talking to a smaller number of people than broadly seen in the print media etc...
I think the Dixie example was pertanent and well thought out.
Andy you are once again creating an issue that others are going to see as being "dooshbag-esque" there was no reason for you to go after Tuffy under those circumstances and sadly he is probably going to rip you a new one in front of cyberspace once again.
Lalla is a veteran. I respect him and his brother more than most people I know because they were willing to do somehting I would never have done.
Respectfully disagreeing with someone is what suppossedly makes this country a good place to live. People instantly going all "pundit" on someone and calling it Arguing is just out of their element ala Donny.
I think some of the points Tuffy brought up are valid ones… although I think even in the heart of Dixie you’re going to hear some differing points of view on Iraq. What the troops hear over there certainly carries some weight with me… much more than what I heard from Joe Blow politician that will say anything to get the most votes come election time. I’ve also heard from enough troops myself to hear some consistency with what they are reporting, and that is there is a ‘group’ in Iraq that feels US troops are needed and wanted. Is that group the majority? The minority? Does it matter?
JB
Both Tuffy and Andy are making great points.
Its true what bring most of you to your opinions is the mass marketed media in the US, which we all know is political driven and can at times be just plain wrong. There’s nothing better then being in Iraq and having the American media showing the insurgents how weak our armor is on our trucks. Thanks CNN.
And Tuffy I want us to get out as soon as possible too. But as a world leading country we have a responsibility to help our neighbors out when needed. We can all agree it’s a mess.
I dislike this slogan and its SO American but, freedom doesn’t come free.
There’s nothing better then being in Iraq and having the American media showing the insurgents how weak our armor is on our trucks. Thanks CNN.
I don't think CNN is to blame for broadcasting the lack of sufficient troop armor. I am certain the insurgents see the results for themselves following an attack. Without CNN reporting on this the American people would be left in the dark regarding the true lack of support this administration has provided to our soldiers.
freedom doesn’t come free.
Freedom can also not be "provided." It has to be wanted and fought for. If the Iraqis are unwilling to fight their own fight for freedom then I doubt there is anything that we can do for them.
But as a world leading country we have a responsibility to help our neighbors out when needed.
There's nothing neighborly about what we've done to the citizens or the nation of Iraq.
How is one to interpret a statement which (when paraphrased) essentially says:
"Don't take this the wrong way, and I don't have the experiences you do, but your personal experiences are flawed and shouldn't be allowed to influence direction in the region. This isn't a personal attack on you, just your experiences. You were there, but I'm not buying what you have to say."
I'd say that's a legitimate statement.
But I don't think Tuffy takes it to its logical conclusion. If Lalla's source of knowledge is flawed, how is Tuffy's source of knowledge any less flawed?
Or, what would be the ideal way to learn about Iraq and form legitimate opinions about it?
Doosh, your mind must be made from Jello. High grade Jello for sure, but still Jello.
Let's break down your astute paraphrasing:
"Don't take this the wrong way, and I don't have the experiences you do, but your personal experiences are flawed..."
Not so fast, Doosh. In no way shape or form did I write that his personal experiences are flawed. I pointed out that Lalla's *interpretation* of his experiences could be flawed.
Let's go on:
"...and shouldn't be allowed to influence direction in the region. This isn't a personal attack on you, just your experiences..."
Again, no. Lalla's *interpretation*, not his experience, Doosh.
And now for the big finish:
"You were there, but I'm not buying what you have to say."
Wrong again, SickDoosh. I buy everything Lalla has to say. They are his experiences and they are valid. However, drawing large scale assessments or presumptions isn't at all rational nor logical.
Conversely, polling of a large population produces scientifically valid results -- this is what I was arguing and had nothing to do with the news media.
Pull your head out of your Kruse, Doosh.
In no way shape or form did I write that his personal experiences are flawed. I pointed out that Lalla's *interpretation* of his experiences could be flawed.
Your exact (not paraphrased) phrasing was "certainly flawed". Not "could be flawed".
But using anecdotal evidence from a handful of conversations with Iraqis is certainly flawed and should not be used in making any sort of large-scale assessments or presumptions.
(fast forward a few comments)
Again, no. Lalla's *interpretation*, not his experience,
Precisely where in that former statement did you make **ANY** sort of distinction between 'experience' and 'interpretation'?
You didn't.
Fact of the matter is that, despite prefacing your attack with "Don't take this the wrong way" or "Not bustin' your balls here, but" or anything similar, you are indeed questioning the value of what someone sees with their own two eyes over what some schoolteacher from St. Paul has based his opinions on. America is full of pundits who think they know all there is to know about foreign policy and military strategy and whatnot and they don't have a shred of credibility to their name. I certainly don't, and I don't go shooting my mouth off and telling veterans that their experiences and conclusions drawn from them are bunk. America was filled with a bunch of those flower-wearing, potsmoking armchair Secretaries of State in the 70's and those idjits are a big reason why I have friends and relatives who are, to this day, having mental breakdowns because of the societal repercussions of their conscription to serve their country. I can't stand for and will do everything in my power not to let that happen again.
But I don't think Tuffy takes it to its logical conclusion. If Lalla's source of knowledge is flawed, how is Tuffy's source of knowledge any less flawed?
I don't think anyone who lacks personal experience in the region or a security clearance can have an unbiased opinion of the true state of affairs Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else in the world. List of people I know who fall into that criteria:
-A lot of people from work
-Not me
-Lalla
-and Skibby
I'm not saying Lalla is wrong, because I don't have the experience and facts to back it up, but I am sure as hell willing to bet that Tuffy isn't getting briefed by the Pentagon...
(gasp.)
"You can't handle the truth!"
(Jack Nicholas quote)
Tuffy, please hurry up and respond...I want to leave work but this is kind of juicy banter...
I can't stand for and will do everything in my power not to let that happen again.
Cue up dramatic music here...
I don't see any flowers in this photo: http://www.laweekly.com/art+book...kissinger/4865/
Nice try Jim, but if you want a real laugh outta me, get me a picture of McNamara prancing through grass fields while holding burning incense sticks...
I’m interpreting knowledge through my experience just like Tuffy is interpreting his knowledge through his experiences. While each of our experiences and knowledge differ there certainly not flawed. Its better to learn through experience then reading about it in a book or watching it on TV, in my experience. Of course if you like learning from books there’s a lot out there that have been written by grunts on the ground who have greater knowledge then me.
Tuffy- “Conversely, polling of a large population produces scientifically valid results.”- Remember scientific results can be manipulated and flawed. (haha like global warming)
Tuffy- “There's nothing neighborly about what we've done to the citizens or the nation of Iraq.”- Sorry but removing a dictator and trying to replace it with a democracy is an honorable deed.
And Tuffy you might be surprised to know that I agree with most of your views. But on the other hand, as Andy so gently points out you might not acknowledge all the information presented to you.
Doosh, you ignorant slut.
I can't believe that I continue to waste my time responding to your continual butchering of my words and intent, but I feel it is necessary in this instance because you have likened me to "flower-wearing, potsmoking armchair Secretaries of State in the 70's", and, damn it, I feel the need to defend the freedom of those flower-wearing, potsmoking armchair Sectretaries of States -- from the 1970s or any other decade for that matter!
See, here's the deal, Doosh: you continue to try to make it sound as if I wrote something disparaging about the troops, our country, et cetera.
You've been doing your very best O'Reilly or Hannity impersonation in your constant attempts to spin my words into a realm completely out of the context in which they were written.
However, if you go back and read my comments, I never get into the political blather at all (aside from the "hope we get out soon" line, which, I might add, the only known veteran commenting here has agreed with).
There was no punditry in my comments.
There were no grandiose statements for or against the troops in my comments.
And there sure as shit wasn't any soapbox standing in my comments. (Have you sent in the trademark papers on that yet, Doosh?)
Instead, any person with half a wit (read: not you, Doosh) who read my comments understood that I was writing about what constitutes a valid opinion poll and what does not.
When Lalla spoke of "talking to a few Iraqi citizens", he was talking about conducting an "opinion poll" which contained the following potentials for inaccuracy:
1) The poll was informally conducted
2) The poll did not consist of a large enough sample
3) The poll consisted of a sample that was not random in nature
4) The poll was conducted in such a fashion that lent itself to non-response bias (those who didn't want to talk to Lalla) and response bias (those who felt compelled to say supportive things to Lalla because he represented a figure of authority)
5) The poll was conducted in such a way that lent itself to coverage bias (meaning that Lalla was only able to get responses from a sample close to one city or location due to his base location).
See where I'm going with this, Doosh?
My comments did not, and continue not to, have anything to do with a particular political point of view, amateur punditry, or a need for special security clearance.
My comments, instead, had to do with the way polls are conducted in a valid manner.
I stand by my original statement that Lalla can't extrapolate any sort of broad and sweeping generalizations based on his "poll".
Further, Doosh, I stand by my conviction that it is people like you who espouse this vile "love it or leave it" mentality are doing more to harm the very fiber of this nation than you are doing to help our nation.
Finally, I apologize to Lalla (who I do not know, have never met, and do not correspond with) for being forced to have anything to do with Doosh's inane diatribe. Sorry, dood.
err...McNamera was the 60s...and he was Secretary of Defense not State...very similar charector to Rumsfeld if you ask me.
jim r.-
why do you hate america?
Anyone who bases their opinions solely on contributions from the media (that being most of us)should expect their conclusions to be somewhat flawed. This goes for the polls too. Besides,who owns a majority of said media? Ok,
ok, I digress.
Furthermore,however small a sample Lalla draws from, it most certainly carries more weight than some reporter on TV or in print.
Won't we be a friendly peloton this year...
Furthermore,however small a sample Lalla draws from, it most certainly carries more weight than some reporter on TV or in print.
Totally wrong.
Lalla has his perspective and it's based in his reality and experience. Do reporters on the ground in Iraq have a less valuable reality and experience?
Don't give me that liberal media crap. The media was 100% complicit in creating the conditions for the start of the war to be swallowed by the American public hook, line and sinker.
Won't we be a friendly peloton this year...
I have no problem with anyone when I am on the bike so long as I don't get knocked off the bike...
I don't see one place in Wiki's comment where he tries to assign the media to any political bias. If there's any bias at work, it's a sensationalist bias. Shock sells.
I don't see one place in Wiki's comment where he tries to assign the media to any political bias.
So maybe it was a preemptive strike. I agree with the rest of your comment.
Smithers-“Lalla has his perspective and it's based in his reality and experience. Do reporters on the ground in Iraq have a less valuable reality and experience?”-
They have there own experience and opinions. But who is paying there bills… Just to let you know when the Army was paying my bills I almost lost my condo and bankruptcy was on the horizon…(there’s thousands of us like this out there) I just thought about it, I almost make the same on unemployment… There’s a lot that doesn’t make it to the media... Good and bad… You are getting a bias opinion one way or the other if you like it or not.
People have to listen to all of us that were there. We have many opinions and views but its far better information then your receiving on your boob tube. Just look up blogs with educated soldiers that don’t glorify war and you’ll be more informed then our leaders.
No joke, I cry every time I hear the national anthem, especially at Wild games. I want nothing more then our troops to be home and safe. But most of us signed up to not only defend our freedom but that of others. Do I have an answer to this situation? No, but I’m open to hear what others have to say. And unfortunately I think most of our leaders (Who are publicly elected) Don’t feel the same. And that is why were in this situation. I imagine if Andy and Tuffy got together they could work out a solution that would be better then what we have now. If they couldn’t then there no better then the bums we have in office today…
Maybe we need to have an official Andy, Tuffy debate? Maybe over beers at Grumpy’s? Lets make a Pod cast out of it… SR, Smithers?
Wow...you guys went to town on this one....all I can say is...we're in, it's our war, and this war is now our lives. Like it or not.
Keep spinning, because it makes the bodies dance, but we are small and they are big and if you think this war is bad or you think this war is good, you're probably right.
Maybe we need to have an official Andy, Tuffy debate? Maybe over beers at Grumpy’s? Lets make a Pod cast out of it… SR, Smithers?
I am in. Let me know when.
Grumpy's...what an appropriate name for such an event.
Can I be the announcer?...I think sr should do the color commentary.
This could be a real great event!
I would even wear my Dandy Don Merideth sports coat.
Wow, I almost missed that this thread was still going!
I’ll make this clear. Bush is not doing his job. I see no other solutions from the “other side.”
There is a well thought out solution from the 'other side' by experts who've been there and also have the big picture. It's the solution presented by the Iraq Study Commission.
“There's nothing neighborly about what we've done to the citizens or the nation of Iraq.”- Sorry but removing a dictator and trying to replace it with a democracy is an honorable deed.
The statement about what we've (actually) done still stands. Which is, removed a brutal dictator and replaced him with a much more brutal civil war. Clearly much more thought was put into the removal than trying to replace it with a democracy, in spite of many warnings (even from Bush's own father), which isn't honorable. The democracy part was an afterthought.
It takes two to tango, or debate, as it may be. Seems the other party has thrown in the towel. Oh well.
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