I'm going to toss this out there and try and be as civil and forensic as possible.
From what I've observed and read it seems to me that there is very little if any good at all in Lebanon. I feel a supreme amount of angst towards the country in its entirety.
My inconvenience however is that I realize painting an entire group of people one way may be a dangerous thing as has been demonstrated in many cases. My question without wishing to be inflammatory goes to those of you who have more first hand and in depth knowledge of the subject materials. It's easy for me to come to various conclusions from my armchair in America, but what do you think of the citizens of Lebanon?
"As an ex-soldier, I can safely say in the name of most of us that our unshakable belief that IDF and, indeed, the nation, will get us back from captivity, alive or dead, makes the service bearable."
I'm assuming though that most would prefer the "alive" option over the "dead" one? And hasn't this deal increased the liklihood that Shalit will be killed?
Man - Lebanon is hardly a homogeneous community. It is rather a loose confederation of several religious and secular tribes, and it's impossible to describe it as a single entity. There are perfectly normal (in the Western sense of the normalcy) enclaves of Christian and secular Lebanese, Druze and other moderate communities. There is a large "Hezbollaland" from the south border to, and partly including, Beirut. There is Sunni North, etc. There is significant Syrian military and intelligence presence, there are some France sympathies. There is a lot of mutual enmity, and even every single religious community is split according to some mysterious (or, maybe, tribal) principle.
With time, though, the influence of radical Islam is getting stronger, with the relevant population growing faster and many moderate Lebanese leaving for greener pastures. The future of Lebanon is no looking good at the moment, and being their neighbor is quite a problem.
Shmuel, of course any soldier would prefer to be back alive, it goes without saying.
And no, I do not believe that Hamas are that stupid. Forensic science could easily tell when a person had been killed and whether he was killed. And Hamas knows perfectly well that a dear price will be extracted if it appears that Shalit is killed.
Honestly, it's hard to come up with words that accurately capture what I'm thinking at this point.
Thank you for the response Snoopy.
Overall, during my time as a U.S. soldier I honestly would have chosen death to capture so long as it was an option.
I didn't see that there was much of a difference in choosing death or being captured anyway.
Man:
this is not about chosing death over capture. It is very possible that they were killed while being captured or very shortly thereafter. It's about the pressure put on the Israeli government to bring them back, dead or alive, in exchange for the "prisonoers", which was what inspired the soldiers' kidnapping in the first place. I also suspect that morale in the IDF has suffered terribly because, particularly since the non-death of Mohammend Al-Dura, the IDF has been painted as a bunch of monsters and the Palestinians as poor victims who are only using the limited resources they have. How effectively can any soldier fight when they have been made to feel that they are fighting on the side of wrong?
I agree Lynne. My point was not about offering advice over death or capture, but to point out that in the service I came to the conclusion that death and capture were synonymous due to the nature of the enemy.
It's an interesting contrast you see... Israel returns a man who is in all senses a monster in good health. While the opposing forces return two men who were serving their country in caskets.
I must also apologize for not being as articulate as I might otherwise be... I'm quite irritated today and having difficulty thinking clearly.
Man -- Israel's Prime Minister Olmert answers your Lebanon question this way:
"Woe is the nation that celebrates at this hour the release of a man that crushed the skull of an infant."
A couple of things. One an admission so perhaps you can understand why I ask some of the following questions. I am not an Israeli, I am not a Jew, and I very recently turned 26.
My first question is about Kuntar -- from what I've read he killed a four year old when he was 16 by striking her with a rifle. Is there another incident I am missing? (I read infant to mean something younger than four although I'm obviously not considering him to be any less of an animal.)
Another burning question on my mind is about the Palestinians. Who are they ? As a people what makes a person a Palestinian and what is the "Palestinian Authority" really ?
I don't get the conflict at all -- there is so much land already available. Why do the squabble and fight over Israel? It just seems like their excuse to eliminate the Jews (or as many as they can).
Also, from what I've read any time Israel offers land to the Palestinians they respond with rocket fire. I just don't get it, perhaps all that I've read is incorrect. I should think someone that lives with this situation will be able to shed better light on it for me. I appreciate any information you might provide.
No probs, man, you really don't have to explain yourself. I shall try to answer or, rather, to tell you what to read on Kuntar:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terror...14-Jul-
2008.htm
You shall see that the infant in question is the two years old girl smothered by her mom who was hiding with her in the attic. So that vermin, besides bashing the 4 year old's head with his gun against a stone is also indirectly responsible for another death.
Re Palestinians: that's a tall order. I guess what makes them Palestinians is location of their birth. And for the current generation, still considered refugees - it's a unique case in the history, no other displaced persons are considered refugees for so long.
As for the availability of other land - of course, the Arab countries in question could have easily accommodated all the refugees, but this is clearly against their interest - which is having Israel as the clear and present enemy forever. Which keeps their people distracted from their real problems.
And re Israel offering Palestinians land - you probably mean Gaza strip. This experiment indeed was a total failure. Instead of trying to show the world how to build a peaceful and productive society, under Hamas rule they quickly became productive in rockets and other assorted weaponry.
But of course, we are also not blameless. And here it becomes hairy, boring and too long for a short comment. I shall try to find a good reference for you.
Cheers.
The need for explanation comes from the fact that as a potential convert there are some things I believe to be a good Jew I should know. Admittedly, I do not know these things yet.
While I have some understanding of military history and I have read the papers, it is quite another thing to live next door to a major political issue than to just read about it and apply theory.
Perhaps the touchy feely portion of me is just coming out today in light of the minor sleep deprivation.
Out of curiosity is there any common sentiment in Israel about converts?
What a sad discovery. Up until this moment we had at least some reason to hope they were still alive. RIP, indeed.
Man - converts (gers) are generally received as Jews for all purposes, and if you want a formal reference, it says "As a citizen among you shall be the ger who lives among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were gers in the land of Egypt—I am the Lord your God."
I only wish the conversion process were simplified a bit to make it like in olden times - you want to join, declare yourself a Jew and be done with it.
But I'm a secular grunt and what do I know?
Dick - during the last few months, almost everyone believed that they are already dead, there were many indications, but no real uncontroversial proof. But yes, it's definitely a sad day.
Thanks for your eloquent and moving post, Snoopy. It is the best explanation of why Israel has done this exchange. It is a sad day, but at least the two families have the bodies of loved ones back to properly mourn and grieve over and not be left in some twilight zone of not knowing the way Ron Arad's family was all these years.
For a change the Media has given quite a bit of space to Kuntar's barbaric deed so that the joyful welcome home of that monster Kuntar is something people around the world will not forget.
David - thanks for the praise. But "eloquent"? Come on, some people are laughing at this same moment 
Man - I have sent you these two links over in e-mail. Let me know if they reached you.
http://mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
http://mideastweb.org/zionism.htm
Snoopy, here are couple of interesting posts about this day's sad swap. One is "Swap Shop" at http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008...-shop/
#comments .
The other is "Lebanese to celebrate release of murderer" at http://www.iraqimojo.blogspot.com
Thank you Snoopy,
your post was eloquent for me.
I did not receive the email. I actually gave this email as a pseudo bogus email.
I'll swap it out for this particular post to my legitimate email.
(I was taking precautions when I posted on the Bernake article so all anti-Semite email responses to me could be appropriately filed.)
Thanks, David - and thanks for that link in the comments too. Interesting discussion on Iraqi Mojo.
"And no, I do not believe that Hamas are that stupid. Forensic science could easily tell when a person had been killed and whether he was killed."
I hope you are right, but its too early to tell. We'll only know when Gilad Shalit is freed and disqualifies himself as the "next Ron Arad".
You're Welcome, Snoopy. Iraqi Mojo is one of the more interesting websites around. He is a Shia Iraqi who came to the US as a child with his family and is now a naturalized American citizen.
He talks about his background and how his family came to America in his first post at http://iraqimojo.blogspot.com/20...i-
american.html .
In this post, Mojo links to a recent Washington Post article about an Iraqi bookseller who has stayed in business despite losing his only son and a brother in the 2007 terroris bombing of Baghdad's main book market in Mutanabi Street. It is entittled "Survivors of the Mutanabi Bombing" and is the third post of this Tues. July 15th at http://www.iraqimojo.blogspot.com
"Ehud Goldwasser's father, Shlomo Goldwasser, said he was mystified by the Lebanese celebrations, coming after the recent war with Israel.
'I cannot understand what the Lebanese are so glad and happy about,' he said.
'They sacrificed over 700 of their best warriors and all their economy and what they get for what they did is a murderer, a bloody murderer of a three-and-a-half-year-old girl and her father - and for this they are making all this glory, for this they sacrificed so much. So I feel only pity for them.'" -
Modernity's comment 16 July at 10:21 PM from http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008...-shop/
#comments
Best remark have read about this sad day.
He should pity them, for all they have is hatred. The Lebanon of the 60's and 70's is gone, never to be back. Destroyed by Arafat and the PLO. Hizbollah is only the latest manifestation of the disease known as "Palestinians".
Surely the Christian Lebanese aren't celebrating.
Thanks for directing me to mojo's post. This is what I just sent to that sewer of a paper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
worldl...7651197,00.html
Sir, Bassem Mroue reports (“Lebanon to celebrate prisoners’ return from Israel” July 14, 200
that signs in Lebanon read “Samir Kantar is the conscience of Lebanon, Palestine and the Arab nation.” He does not say what it feels like to have a man who bludgeoned four-year old’s Einat to death with his rifle as your conscience. What does it feel like to wake up in the morning, look at yourself in the mirror and say to yourself, “I want to be the most gruesome child murderer imaginable”?
There are an equal number of us Israelis who see this deal as endangering us - encouraging our enemies to capture Israeli soldiers.
It also teaches our enemies that keeping a captured Israeli soldier alive is not worth the effort - the same concessions can be wrung out of the Zionists for dead bodies.
Many, many of the people who serve in the IDF do not view this deal as a confirmation of the unwritten pact between Israel and its citizen army. Instead, they see it as the craven act of a weak government, egged on by a sensationalist Israeli press corps that let the families of the missing set the terms of the public discourse.
Ben-David: this reasoning has not escaped me, as you can find in this post. Not that I find it compelling in this specific case.
But when you say "There is an equal number of us Israelis..." - are you sure you are right?
In other words, are you sure that you are not using this sad exchange story as an additional reason to throw more mud at Olmert and his pathetic government? Are you sure that at this stage this is what has to be done, no matter what the reason is?
Ask yourself what any other Israeli government would do in this situation.
Katie - it is a bit more complex that this, with Lebanon's precarious religious and tribal structure.
Dick - unfortunately, this is not so. I shall post something on the subject.
Inna - good stuff!
Jewish people are often accused of thinking themselves apart or better than others - but look at the price that the Gentiles have demanded - as in this case, hundreds of Gentiles per 1 Jew, dead or alive.
Well, Kelly - if this is a consolation
Well, I know Christian Lebanese who live in Austin who are not celebrating. But that could be why they left Lebanon to begin with.
Very well said. Thank you.
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