Psst - the people who think this is a religious ji-er, crusade, aren't the Christians.
Nicely done.
I hear it's the officer corp where this stuff gets really bad.
The baby Jesus will cry if you take away the coins.
Psst - the people who think this is a religious ji-er, crusade, aren't the Christians.
Vernunft
Yes, which is precisely why we shouldn't be feeding that misconception by allowing our soldiers in uniform to evangelize in a war zone like Anbar province.
Duh.
So if the Army is open to people of all faith, then why can't these people practice their faith while in the Army? Do you have to stop practicing your faith to join the Army? If a Muslim were to join the Army, would they be allowed to pray at the appropriate time each day? Maybe that is how it should be. The Army is a volunteer force, and nobody has to join, so maybe there should be a rule that no religious practices at all will be allowed. That would mean no religious symbols be worn by the troops, no prayer groups, no chaplains, and no carrying American money with the slogan "In God We Trust" printed on it.
then why can't these people practice their faith while in the Army? Do you have to stop practicing your faith to join the Army?
They can practice their faith all they want. They just shouldn't foist it on others.
and no carrying American money with the slogan "In God We Trust" printed on it.
Which wasn't adopted as our National motto until 1956. I'm fine with ditching it. It's blasphemous to add the name of God to our currency, anyway.
SB - if their faith calls them to preach to others, then telling them not to preach is telling them to not practice their faith. Now, I don't really care what the Army sets as rules for the soldiers because it is a volunteer position anyway. Just so long as they are clear and equal. No religion will need to mean no religion.
The in God we Trust thing was just me being snarky. Although, I am sure the Iraqi would have taken the coin if it was a dollar coin even though it had a "religious" message on it. And he probably would not have felt threatened by it.
SB - if their faith calls them to preach to others, then telling them not to preach is telling them to not practice their faith. Now, I don't really care what the Army sets as rules for the soldiers because it is a volunteer position anyway. Just so long as they are clear and equal. No religion will need to mean no religion.
So you are saying that if you are not allowed to preach to everyone, that I can not pray in private?
SB - if their faith calls them to preach to others, then telling them not to preach is telling them to not practice their faith.
Only an idiot would say the only way one can live their faith is to hand out coins with Bible verses on them to Muslims in a war zone.
Go to church, Jim. You need to learn a few things about the Christian faith.
I cannot recall.
Seems to me that in a greedy/capitalist society that the US has become, having "in God we trust" on our money is fitting...
Maybe the only beautiful thing about the Bush presidency might be its freedom from religious and racial prejudice. I commend Bush for speaking out on behalf of Muslims around the world. But let us not forget that it was W who first called it a crusade. It's pretty much Muslims vs. Christians near as I can tell in the minds of most Bush supporters. I know, a lot of Bush supporters still believe it was a matter of national security, but these aren't the true believers. I guess you can be a good Muslim if you accept American domination. It's only natural that a narrow-minded form of Christianity should suppose that anyone who opposes us is evil and therefore of Satan. Who can blame the novice evangelicals for reaching out to the lost? You can bet your bottom dollar that Muslims inside Iraq and elsewhere see our occupation as the clash of two civilizations. It's kind of hard to miss. This is, after all, a very ancient mindset. Not much has changed about these ideas over the centuries. Remembering that Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11/01, let us never suppose for even one fraction of a second that the war and subsequent occupation were just or necessary.
I don't think anyone can logically explain why Cheney and company invaded Iraq. It's not like we couldn't have bought oil from Iraq without invading their country. But there is a Muslim component in the enmity. Bin Laden is Muslim. Therefore ... Probably the main reason we invaded was a personal animosity nurtured by George W. Bush coupled with the Dr. No style world domination politics of madmen.
As far as the motto on our currency, I always thought that meant that we trusted God would provide some more money for the next few days or weeks.
Alright. This is what I saw that tweaked my mind. It was a show on PBS that featured an Iraq war veteran, a petty officer, in an interview interspersed with photographs from his experiences in Iraq. One shot was a group of American soldiers posing around a 3' by 6' sign that read, "911 PAYBACK. " The soldier who was being interviewed acknowledged the fallaciousness of this claim, but exhibited a familiar type of defensiveness surrounding this attitude.
This affected me profoundly, confirming my worst fears about the American public and particularly the mental state of our American troops.
Flying Junior:
You are correct. As Atrios points out in today's post, the war is about "suck on this."
Which is a really, really stupid reason to send our nation's sons and daughters to war, spend our grandchildren's inheritance, not to mention all the innocent civillians that were killed.
I really boggles the mind.
"Only an idiot would say the only way one can live their faith is to hand out coins with Bible verses on them to Muslims in a war zone."
So you get to decide which religions are acceptable to practice? That is a bit haughty of you don't you think?
If jim does not blow my dog, then my religious rights will have been impugned.
shrimplate - it is pretty easy to understand. People have the right to preach to others in a public forum. It is freedom of speech and freedom of religion. People do not have the right to force people to join their religion or participate in their religion. See the difference?
So your analogy should read that you have the right to blow your dog (assuming he is a willing participant) as a part of your religious practice and no one should be able to stop you from doing it. You do not have the right to make me join you.
People have the right to preach to others in a public forum.
Not when we're in a foreign country we don't! You forget we're talking about U.S. soldiers in IRAQ here, not some church group in the U.S.
The church I attended here in good ole Athens, AL, was thrilled when the U.S. invaded Iraq because now Iraqis could be exposed to Chrisianity. We tried to explain that Christianity was already there - for the few that wanted it. How did Americans ever get this idea?? Just something to think about.
Jim,
Mrs. Beale said it correctly: they are soldiers in a combat zone and have been ordered to not preach to locals. Giving an Iraqi a coin asking them where they will spend eternity does nothing to change their mind. It pisses them off further and validates their fear that we want to remake their country. It has been Muslim since around 700 AD. A few Marines with simplistic religious props aren't helping save people they are prolonging the conflict.
And, no, soldiers do not have the freedom to spread their faith while in uniform at an official Army checkpoint. They aren't being stopped from practicing their faith, they are being asked to not upset MUSLIMS in a MUSLIM nation that we claim to be LEAVING at some point and not REMAKING in our image.
And I don't want my tax dollars thrown away on a mission campaign. If you want to do that then take your Church men's prayer breakfast and get your happy asses over there and change the world. Let our soldiers focus on the job at hand and bring them home soon.
well said, Casey!
Overall I do agree that the Army should stop its members from practicing faith. My point was that it has to be either stop all of it or allow all of it. If the choice is stop all of it - which I do support since the Army is voluntary - then that would mean no public displays of religious items, no chaplains in the Army, no congregating for prayer services, etc. I am fine with that. I was more arguing that you cannot tell these people to not practice their faith and then let others continue to do their faith based activities.
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