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Read the commenting rules carefully because they will be enforced!

$\"Gravatar\"$ These women have lost the right to see the children. The mothers job is to protect her children and these mothers have not. It makes me furious that the children were not taken earlier. The mothers should be prosecuted.
Carol Palmer | 04.15.08 - 12:41 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Carol, I agree with that assessment 100%. I know we are dealing with a different set of beliefs than we have, but the bottom line is these children were being abused and these mothers allowed it to happen and even encouraged it.

The children must come first.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 12:47 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ The eyes of Texas are upon you,
All the live long day.
The eyes of Texas are upon you,
You cannot get away.
Do not think you can escape them,
At night, or early in the morn'.
The eyes of Texas are upon you,
'Till Gabriel blows his horn!
angel | 04.15.08 - 12:49 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ So, someone *anonymously* tips off the police that they were *allegedly* abused and the solution is to strip over 400 children from their mother's arms?

There is no proof of anything other than a different religion here. No proof of abuse in one single case and *certainly* no evidence that *all* 400+ children were abused!

The time is coming, indeed it is now upon us, Carol, where if I know your address I can have child protective services break down your door, take your children from you, and you can't see them again unless a court decides it should be so. Does this INSANE power seem to be abused here? Absolutely.
Joker1337 | 04.15.08 - 12:57 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ CPS \"protective\" custody is anything but protective. Google \"children protected to death by CPS\" and weep as you see all those dead little kids thanks to CPS protection. Remember as you look at their pictured that they are only picturing the children killed while in CPS's \"protective\" arms. The pictures of the children abused, tortured, molested in the loving arms of CPS would take all day to watch.
Lilathe | 04.15.08 - 1:00 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ It is better that these take their chances in protective custody than to be subjected to the abuse that they already have been. Girls being forcefully raped at 13 and if there are too many boys, they are thrown out of the sect. These poor boys are known as The Lost Boys http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/...sa.julianborger

Maybe now these children can grow up emotionally healthy.
Katie Norcross | 04.15.08 - 1:26 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Joker, your name is appropriate because it is a joke to think that knee jerk reactionaries would bother to read the links provided.

The call was a tip, it was eyewitness accounts from a ranger and other police authorities while looking for the girl that proved enough evidence for authorities to take the children.

Try actually reading up on the story before commenting, you won't sound so uninformed next time.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 1:40 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Lilathe, no system is perfect but at the Ranch, they are guaranteed to be sexually abused.

Call it the lesser of two evils because there are some very decent, loving, foster parents out there that would not appreciate people like you lumping them in with the bad apples.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 1:41 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Katie, exactly. Now they stand a chance at least of growing up without daily suffering at the hands of pedophiles.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 1:42 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ CPS has done a good job of protecting both the women and the children, as well as conducting an investigation.

Taking the women with the children made the children's transition easier. It also gave the women a chance to get away from the compound with their children. When the women got the chance to return to the cult or go to a women's shelter, those who wanted to were able to go to the shelter without deserting their children to the cult.

We can't know all the reasons most of the women returned to the cult. Some of them may have children elsewhere in the FLDS community. Besides, the FLDS has an incredible amount of money and has exercised a great deal of control over these women's lives. They may well imagine the cult is their best hope of regaining their children. It's hard to say.

These \"spiritual\" marriages are a way of side-stepping laws against bigamy. Only one, or sometimes none of the marriages are legal marriages. When consulting adults engage in this behavior, it's a matter of personal freedom. If the FLDS would just stop forcing minor children to marry old perverts, they'd be free and clear.

Maybe TX CPS can convince them to clean up their act.
Elizabeth Conley | 04.15.08 - 1:46 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Katie, there is no due process here. There is no legal proof. There is no detention of these older men. There is nothing but unwarranted separation of the women and children who are the \"victims,\" while the men who were involved have nothing happen to them.

It was a fear of this sort of scenario that caused the Branch Davidians to be unwilling to work more closely with the government.

I don't really doubt that something illegal happened on a systematic basis at that site. I doubt, however, that taking the children away from their mothers (not their fathers, their mothers) is going to make things any better. I cannot see CPS making this right, because this is not a case of 400+ black and white child abuses. This is a case of some (I guess 10 or 20) black and white child abuses which have not yet been disclosed.

We place too much emphasis on \"emotional health\" and too little on \"personal liberty\" when we stand aside as 400 children are taken from their mothers because some of them might have been abused. The precedent that this case will establish unless it is intervened upon is drastic.

If you live near someone who goes to the same church as you, and they get a CPS call on them, lock your doors.
Joker1337 | 04.15.08 - 1:47 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan,

Links? Don't see any in your post. I'm not knee-jerk by any measure, I've been following this case since it broke.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/c...gamy/ci_8927977

The police have tried to find this tipster. They haven't yet.

They don't have a recording of the tip. They can't locate the tipster. They knew something was up and they finally got a call from someone they can't find now. How... well-timed.

In addition, it's hardly like the children were abused. They were already in CPS custody, but they at least had access to their mothers. Yes, get the kids out. No, do not break the mothers off from their children without so much as a trial.
Joker1337 | 04.15.08 - 1:53 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ OK- so the Texas welfare system (excuse me \"Social Services\") has another 416 children placed in jeopardy of the Texas foster care system. My question is \"WHO IS GOING TO POLICE THE FOSTER CARE SYSTEM?\" Almost every day there's another headline about child abuse in foster care. Aren't these children better off in the care of their mothers - regardless of where they reside? Wouldn't a more equitable solution have been to examine each child for signs of abuse and give the younger children back to their respective mothers? If there is evidence of marriage of girls over age 12, then take these girls away from the Ranch and keep them until they are of a legal age to marry.

The Texas authorities have again overstepped their constitutional authority and trampled on the civil and religous liberties of a people living a lifestyle of their own choice. Once again the women and children are suffering - not the men....nowhere have I been able to find even one picture of a male in the news depicting the \"rescue of 416 children.\" I realize that Texas advertises itself as a \"whole 'nother country\" but this is going too far...
what this amounts to is open warfare against organized polygamy. Maybe it's time for the Texas authorities to start checking up on all the virile he-males out there who are in essence practicing polygamy by marrying one woman, keeping a \"mistress\" on the side, and fathering children by numerous females.
FAITH HARRELL ROCHESTER | 04.15.08 - 2:38 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Joker, where have you been living? First off, take the numbers out, ANY home that shows a child has been abused has that child removed from the parents until they can determine which parent and if both were culpable.

The links are on the bottom under previous:

The affidavits are there from the rnager that SAW abuse, the complaints are linked to, the findings from the search and if you had bothered to read them all, you would see that a tip might have started this whole thing, but abuses were real

Unless of course you do not think that men over 30 screwing children under 15 with the mothers approval, is abuse.

If you do not consider that abuse, then YOU need the mental health professionals.

There was enough evidence presented to the judge (see the affidavits I mentioned before) for the judge to sign off on removing all the children.

You think you are more of an expert? Have you read the affidavits? Have you read the complaints? Have YOU seen the evidence that was present?

Doubtful. But Child services did, the authorities did and the court did.

Sorry, but I will side with the experts instead of someone that couldn't even be bothered to read the full story from beginning to end before making such an uninformed comment as your last two.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 2:49 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Faith they are only better off with their mothers in the minds of people that think allowing your child to be RAPED at the age of 13 and 14 is just hunky dory!@!!!!

100 mothers went back to the compound after being separated from their children and I hope the state never lets those mothers near those children again for allowing any man to rape and beat their kids without protecting their own babies.

Sickening.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 2:51 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I've been living in the United States.

This \"any home\" has turned into an \"any neighborhood.\" I do not believe that Texas has 400+ viable cases, they simply don't have the evidence for it.

The reason that they were able to move was because they got a tip that has not yet been traced to the source. The affidavits this whole thing is based on are traceable to an unidentified and not-yet-located female. Furthermore, the case was that the FLDS church was brainwashing the children and women into believing that their situation was acceptable.

So, the Texas CPS solution to this is to remove the children, good.

To remove the women, good.

To take the children away from their mothers and then allow the women to return to the location that they were being brainwashed at? Excuse me?!

Bear in mind Susan, you're approaching this from conventional Western cultural views. Per the affidavits that the Texas CPS and sheriffs went in on, the women in the compound had been seeped in a counter-conventional Western culture. So how are we to jump and say: \"How could you?!\" when to them it was the norm (if the affidavits are indeed correct.) We do not freak out at every story of an Arab beating his wife, nor do we flinch overly much at the tale of a girl who is 12 being married in Africa. It's all the reference frame.
Joker1337 | 04.15.08 - 3:35 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ So you have seen the evidence? I highly doubt that. They had evidence that abuse was rampant at the compound and they provided the evidence to the judge who signed the search order and ordered the children removed.

PERIOD.

If you have any factual evidence instead of just an uninformed opinion, feel free to share otherwise all you are offering is an opinion based on NOTHING.

I have provided links to the complaints, to the affidavits and you cannot get around the basic fact that 13 and 14 yrs olds were being consistently RAPED.

Now, do you or do you not think that screwing a 13 or 14 yrs child with the mothers basic permission and allowing it, is abuse?

It is a simple question, so answer it.

The laws in OUR country are clear, please leave your distraction techniques of bring up countries that have nothing to do with OUR laws.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 3:51 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Oh, one last thing... ALLOW the mothers to return? In case you don't already know it, unless the mothers file a complaint or are proven mentally unstable, it is THEIR choice where they go. They were given the option and over 30 of them chose to go to a shelter. Those mothers will probably end up with their kids back, the others, do not deserve them and probably will not.

We are in America here, the only frame of reference needed is OUR LAWS.

Clear?
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 3:53 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I am saddened and concerned that an entire community of children were taken away based on one household complaint.
What is more, the authorities have known for years what was going on at the YFZ and did nothing to stop it.
This is essentially Group Punishment by Assosication. Each home should have been evaluted on a case-by-case basis.
The scariest thing in the world to me is when we willing give up our rights for \"The Greater Good.\"
It now appears that even the complainant was fraudlent. I hope that person and her conspirators are found and persacuted and prosecuted as much as those poor children.
I do not condone the polygamy, underage marriage, or even their closed society. However, individual rights are being discarded for the Greater Evil.
LawnBott | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 4:03 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Lawn, you are another one that obviously didn't read the RANGER'S affidavit. He stated what he witnessed.

These children were not taken on the world of one girl and yet that is all you seem to have heard about?

Try reading the complint, the multiple officers statements, the person they had within the community giving them information on the abuse happening daily, THEN TRY TO AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACTS INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MISREPRESENT THEM AND PRETENDING IT WAS ALL DONE ON THE WORD OF ONE GIRL.

Lying doesn't cut it here. Deal with the facts instead of the hype.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 4:07 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Documents:

http://www.azfamily.com/images/0...040808_flds.pdf

Search Warrant:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/arc...1polygamy1.html

Other information contained in that warrant included:

� Investigators found several women in their early teens who were married or pregnant or already had babies. In an affidavit, Texas Ranger Leslie Brooks Long said authorities were told that one girl was under 16 years old and already had four children.

� Frederick Merril Jessop, the leader of the compound, first told authorities there were only 250 people living there.

� The compound includes a surveillance and guard tower near the front gate.

Time for you people to start using your brains instead of your emotions and understand that the children and their well being is the paramount concern here, NOT the parents that allowed their children to be RAPED.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 4:12 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ WHOSE children are they? Apparently babies are taken away from the real mothers and given to other mothers to raise. There are no birth certificates (as required by state law). These \"mothers\" may not even be the real mothers of the children. They don't get the kids back until they can prove, first of all, that the kids belong to them!
AuK | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 4:12 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$

Investigators found several women in their early teens who were married or pregnant or already had babies. In an affidavit, Texas Ranger Leslie Brooks Long said authorities were told that one girl was under 16 years old and already had four children.

Now lets see, under 16, 4 children...unless they were twins, that means she was pregnant at the ripe old age of 12.

Anyone who thinks that is not abuse, needs their heads examined.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 4:14 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ AuK, Excellent point and one we haven't even approached yet!!! Thanks.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 4:14 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan, it seems that a lot of people are getting caught up in minor details and/or not bothering to read information that has already been made public with regard to the case(s). Maybe the perpetrator is not Dale Barlow of Arizona. Maybe it's another Barlow - I see in one of the affidavits that a Richard Barlow is mentioned. MAYBE THERE ARE TWO DALE BARLOWS! *gasp* That doesn't mean abuse is not happening; that doesn't mean that the state has not already established (preliminarily) a pattern of abuse that led to the removal of these children. Just because one fact may be wrong, or mis-reported, doesn't mean all of the facts are wrong, or mis-reported.
AuK | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 4:28 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ You noticed how people try to avoid the data already released and try the tired old argument of \"it was one girls word\", totally ignoring the mountain of evidence that was presented to the authorities?

I notice it which is why I present the documents, the long history of details presented about this group and the sheriff has actually had to explain why he didn't move in sooner.

Some people will always stay wilfully blind Auk but it doesn't matter because now these children will all have the men tal help they need, their own lawyers to represent just them (not the state, not the parents) and perhaps, these kids will be given a chance to know life without being beaten and raped consistently.

Welcome to Wake up America AuK, good to have you here.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 5:32 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Once DNA testing is completed (however long that may take given the number of people involved and their uncooperative nature) it should be pretty easy to demonstrate that if a child was born to a girl and an old man, the old man committed rape. So, for all the fussing, its only a matter of time before some of these people face up to what they've done. And the entire community bears some responsibility, since they obviously allowed and even assisted in this abuse. Once upon a time women and children were seen as mere property, with the \"man\" in charge. Those days are, thankfully, over, and these people can't hide behind their religion as an excuse for their crimes.
Molly | 04.15.08 - 5:56 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan said \"Long said authorities were told that one girl was under 16 years old and already had four children.\"
That allegation was made by an eight year old boy. Not sure how reliable it is since the state keeps saying the children don't know their own ages, how can an 8 year old be the most credible witness n the entire place?
Lilathe | 04.15.08 - 6:19 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I think that what is being missed here is that the children were not removed because of suspicion that they had already been abused, although that is possible, it is with the idea that they are in harm's way, that abuse is likely. This is a much harder case to make, but the state is within its right to remove children from homes that can be conclusively shown to be hazardous.

Now the state will have to make the case for taking the kids away from the mothers. I find this part the state's action to be less persuasive. My understanding is that all of the evidence of abuse had to do with teenage girls marrying older men. I didn't read in the documents any evidence of these mom's abusing these kids. Does the state have a case that the compound is a dangerous place where these kids are at risk? I think that's obvious. But what is the rationale for taking them completely away from their mothers? I could see doing it for interviews with psychologists, but this just seems to be going overboard.

But I am willing to keep an open mind and see what justification the state gives. I don't think this is religious bigotry, I have faith that the state is trying to do what's in the best interest of the kids. Let's just hope that if some of these moms are fit to be with their kids that they can be returned. It seems to me that these moms would have been the victims of this kind of abuse earlier in their lives and as such may be in as much need of help as the kids. The anger directed at the moms seems misplaced.
Bryce Clark | 04.15.08 - 6:28 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan -sorry not trying to spam. Yes I know there are some wonderful loving perfect foster parents out there. But I also know there are abusive, molesting, torturing, child starving horrible animals out there that parade as foster parents. Who gets to toss a coin to see which one of these precious angels ends up in which foster home?
Who will cry for them when they are beaten to death as many have been in foster care? Who will remember them? You? Me?
THEIR PARENTS WILL, that is who.
Look up the videos in memorial of children killed in foster care. Not one is done by me. Not a single one carries your name. Every one was made by a parent that lost their child to CPS.
Lilathe | 04.15.08 - 6:31 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Bryce, letting the children be abused sometimes with the mothers witnessing it and not stopping it IS abuse, look it up in the laws of Texas.

Just because the mothers didn't touch them doesn't mean they cannot have their children taken NOR be charged with child endangerment and abuse as well as neglect.

Sorry Lilathe, although there is abuse in any system, it is guaranteed that less of these children will suffer abuse, especially the young females in the foster system than the guaranteed rape and molestation from the compound. That dog doesn't fly.

It is also not the word of one 16 yrs old, nor just one eight year old, it is a preponderance of evidence gathered during the full investigation which no one even knew about until the raid of the facility.

The facts are simple if people would look at them and think instead of using emotion to replace their brains.

The young girls were raped, molested AND beaten, that is abuse. The women, the mothers, allowed it to happen, even encouraged the \"spiritual\" marriages with the older men to which then led to what the mothers knew was sexual relations with CHILDREN, that is also abuse, and endangerment.

You really should read Texas' abuse laws before making comments like that.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 6:55 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$

Once DNA testing is completed (however long that may take given the number of people involved and their uncooperative nature) it should be pretty easy to demonstrate that if a child was born to a girl and an old man, the old man committed rape. So, for all the fussing, its only a matter of time before some of these people face up to what they've done. And the entire community bears some responsibility, since they obviously allowed and even assisted in this abuse. Once upon a time women and children were seen as mere property, with the \"man\" in charge. Those days are, thankfully, over, and these people can't hide behind their religion as an excuse for their crimes.
Molly

Well said Molly and lets not forget the instances of incest, when those DNA test come back, there very well may a whole slew of charges listed as well as plenty of arrests.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 6:56 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$

But I am willing to keep an open mind and see what justification the state gives. I don't think this is religious bigotry, I have faith that the state is trying to do what's in the best interest of the kids. Let's just hope that if some of these moms are fit to be with their kids that they can be returned. It seems to me that these moms would have been the victims of this kind of abuse earlier in their lives and as such may be in as much need of help as the kids. The anger directed at the moms seems misplaced.
Bryce Clark

I would hope that the mothers that chose to go to shelters instead of back to the compound would also be offered state paid for mental health counseling and would be allowed visitation, even supervised at first and the chance to reunite with their kids.

The other mothers, the 100 that went back to the compound and refused other options, have shown they have no intention of putting their kids before their own comforts.

By going back to a place that has abuse running rampant, they are saying clearly that the believe that abuse is not wrong.

They cannot be trusted with children.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 7:00 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan - I may be missing something, but in the documents I read I didn't see evidence that the kids that were taken were being abused. If I'm mistaken, then the kids should absolutely be taken away from the mothers. I don't need to look anything up, I know that allowing abuse to happen IS abuse. I just thought that the kids were being taken out of the compound because of the risk that they face. If there are charges that these kids have already been abused, then I am totally on board with what is going on.
Bryce Clark | 04.15.08 - 7:07 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan - I think that's a reasonable approach concerning the mothers that have chosen to go to shelters. I still have some sympathy for the other mothers as when they were young girls they were likely victims of rape and sexual abuse. Perhaps even those who returned to the compound deserve some sort of counseling?
Bryce Clark | 04.15.08 - 7:12 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Bryce, I think they do, I would even donate to get it for them. The problem is you cannot force grown women to get help, they have to admit there is a problem and volunteer.

I feel for the women that grew up there and have been taught all their lives that it was appropriate to have children raped and beaten and molested, but, short of kidnapping them and forcing them to get help, the only thing that Texas State can do, is help the kids and hope more of the mothers choose as the 30+ did, to take safe shelter elsewhere and agree to counseling with the kids.

I truly think the mothers that choose to learn the difference between being religious and letting abuse be perpetrated on their children in the name of religion, should have the opportunity to show they can raise their children without letting them be abused.

The others....well, who knows, maybe they will communicate with the mothers that chose shelters over the compound and some more will chose to practice their religion in a manner than won't put their children at risk.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 7:33 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan - makes sense. Well put.
Bryce Clark | 04.15.08 - 7:42 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Bryce, the documents that were taken from the compound are still being gone through, but early reports are that they kept records and indications that young girls of 13 and 14 yrs old bore children.

That is abuse in the eyes of the law. Then we have the alleged beatings, which still need to be confirmed.

What amazes me is the young girls that escaped who reported this type of thing for years, and Texas didn't see fit to fully investigate those allegations and waited this long.

In one report, the sheriff actually defended his waiting:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story....nt/5690632.html

SAN ANGELO � The local sheriff today defended his decision not to intervene sooner at a West Texas polygamist compound, despite having a confidential informant who provided him with information over four years.

The confidential informant told authorities days ago that beds in the group's sacred temple at the Yearning for Zion Ranch were used by adult men to have sex with underage girls, according to court documents.

\"It's just like anything. If you have a meth lab on your property and you feel it's there, you're not going to (trample) their civil rights or treat them any differently until you get probable cause or information or an outcry,\" said Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran.

Four Years... they had information being gathered for four years and they just raided them?

Unreal.

Everyone wants to assume this was because of one phone call or one incident, but they obviously haven't read the reports. All these links are in the previous section of this post, at the bottom.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 7:42 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ The children should not be seperated from the mothers. Period. This is unconsitutional. Let's at least allow the mothers to remain with their children. One day a neighbor who doesn't like you for whatever reason could decide to call in an anonymous call to have your kids taken away. Let the kids STAY with their mothers until the rest is sorted out. Also, does anyone know where we can see a copy of the Affidavit online or a recording of the phone calls?
David | 04.15.08 - 7:55 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Well, we can at least hope that the younger kids haven't been abused, makes me sick to think about. I didn't realize the situation with the Sheriff. I'm all for the Government being careful not to overstep their Constitutional limits, but it seems to me with allegations of child abuse that he would have at least sought a search warrant.

On the kids being separated from their mothers, and the documents, I see your point. I guess it just takes some stomaching - this level of government intervention. Sometimes it is necessary.

On another note, this was my first visit to your blog. I've been looking it over and like what I see.
Bryce Clark | 04.15.08 - 7:58 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ David, when allegations of abuse upon a child are made, the children are taken away from the parents until those allegations can be confirmed or disproven. PERIOD.

Thats the law, get over it.

David, follow the links at the bottom of the post. The complaint is there as is the affidavit. Try clicking before speaking next time.

All links are provided in the articles from the beginning of this until the end and OBVIOUSLY you didn't read the sheriff's remarks. He has been getting information from an informant for FOUR YEARS, so it isn't one call or one anonymous source as you like to pretend it is.

The links are ALSO posted here in this comment section. Do you people even bother to read before spewing nonsense?
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 8:20 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$

Well, we can at least hope that the younger kids haven't been abused, makes me sick to think about. I didn't realize the situation with the Sheriff. I'm all for the Government being careful not to overstep their Constitutional limits, but it seems to me with allegations of child abuse that he would have at least sought a search warrant.

On the kids being separated from their mothers, and the documents, I see your point. I guess it just takes some stomaching - this level of government intervention. Sometimes it is necessary.

On another note, this was my first visit to your blog. I've been looking it over and like what I see.
Bryce Clark

First, thanks and I hope to see you visiting more often :o)

Second, yes, the sheriff should have but as you can see, even waiting, gathering evidence and taking all this time, they are still being criticized.

A little hint to stomach the government intervention which I find useful is to stop looking at the numbers and ask myself if ONE kid in a family of three had alleged abuse, mental, emotional and physical, and the state stepped in and took them all until they could confirm or prove that allegation wrong, would it seem more palatable?

To me, yes it would, then I look at this case and understand that since kids get passed around from parent to parent because they all are the mothers, it is easier to understand that the difference is in numbers, not the Governments reaction.

Last but not least, I am not privy to the internal documents or the information about the interviews with the children, but from previous cases and other kids that escaped and spoke about life in the compound, they do say that children under 10 are usually not sexually abused.

I might be proven wrong in that when details emerge, but I think I have read that before from other witnesses.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 8:27 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Great point about the 1 in 3 kids hypothetical.
Bryce Clark | 04.15.08 - 8:32 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ LOL, Thanks. It was the only way I could wrap my head around the what is called the largest Child protective services issue ever in Texas.

Imagine how the judge feels? She needs to see to it that all 416 kids each have representation (lawyers are volunteering from all across the country to help), she has to see to it each kids has access to mental health, all of them have to be interviewed, and imagine the DNA lab with this many cases.

My heavens, what a mess.

One thing the spokeswoman from the CPS said was that is these types of cases children are more prone to speak freely when their parents aren't with them and watching over their shoulders and CPS did do something which is considered bending the rules, but I understand why they did so...they let the mothers of kids under 4-5 (different reports give a different age of 4 or 5) stay with their kids.

Usually they separate them all until the investigation is complete.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 8:41 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Susan, your argument doesn't fly either. Going into CPS custody could be a death sentence. As far as I know, no charge has been made that any child on this ranch life was in danger.
Yes, 100% if a 13 y/o on that compound had a baby and DNA shows it to be from a 50 y/o man then lets file charges and put HIM in jail. Let's put HIS life at risk. Let's let HIM become the \"wife\" that is passed around in prison.
We don't have to punish these children to lock up child molestors. We don't have to re-assign children to more deserving homes. Locking up any molestors will pretty much take care of any danger to any of these children because registered sex offenders can't be back around them in Texas.
I don't know that any 13 y/o was married, the interviews all showed over aged 18 girls with children in the legal affidavit. I didn't see a single interview that stated under age 16.
Lilathe | 04.15.08 - 10:04 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Lilathe, get over your absurd obsession with CPS is being a killing machine. The children were taken after 4 years...understand FOUR YEARS, of the sheriff getting information. There was enough evidence for the judge to sign off, despite your ridiculous assertions.

The documents taken from the ranch in conjuction with the rest of the investigation will prove who needs to be locked up and who doesn't

The children are finally safe from those monsters at the compound and hopefully only the mothers that went to the shelters will ever get near those children again.

You sound like your personally invested, perhaps you agree with mothers letting their babies be raped and molested but normal, caring human beings do not.
Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 11:08 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Some ex members speak out:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1...5270674,00.html

This paragraph specifically:

Jessop, who chronicled her flight from the FLDS Church in her book \"Escape,\" took her eight children with her. One has gone back to the FLDS Church.

Jessop has relatives who are on the ranch, but insists that the case is about abuse.

\"Everybody totally accepts that a little girl born into a monogamous family, that she has the right to help if she's being abused. But once you touch a little girl that's been born into a polygamous family, everybody goes through the roof and it's 'religious persecution,'\" she said. \"That is not the case. That little girl has as much right to protection by the United States government as a little girl that's born into a monogamous family. We just need to cut through the crap.

Susan | Homepage | 04.15.08 - 11:30 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I still don't see how some people blame the mothers in this situation. They were raised in a different world than we. They probably have never been to a shopping mall and don't understand \"the outside world\" ... also they've been led to believe that everything is governored by \"a prophet\" , someone speaking on behalf of God. This is a very controlling envrinoment, but i doubt many of the women saw it that way .. What did they have to compare it to? Nothing, because they did not know what living outside that place was like. I have now read the affidavits written by CPS on behalf of a minor.
If adult outsiders previously living there attest to this abuse, then I am all for stopping the abuse and I am all for allowing mothers and non-abisuve fathers to be reunited to their children at some point. Again, the women here I feel are victims as much as the children. Being brained washed is akin to not understanding reality and not being able to judge right from wrong. Susan we'll just have to agree to disagree about the mothers part ... that's all.
Also, does anyone watch the Lifetime channel on cable?
Less than a week before this raid by CPS, Lifetime aired a movie about a polygamist compound, where the girls were forced to marry as teenagers, some to their own step-fathers ... also in the movie a teenaged girl's arm was broken during an attempted rape by a guy in his 20s. The mother of that girl was threatened and told to tell the hospital that the girl fell down. CPS arrived at the home and the father and other males in the family ignored then and told CPS to leave the property. Finally, the mother of the girl with the borken arm, took her kids and left, when she found out her teen daughter was to be married to her own (former) step-dad. The movie ended with the girl running away back to the polygamist community to be with a boy she was in love with ... and eventually there was a raid by law enforcement who took only those who had signs of abuse and who wanted to leave.

So less than a week after this movie was aired, my wife and I were shocked to see the news on TV ... well it was interesting timing in the very least.
Any abusive men in this community should be punished and perhaps the \"prophet\" whoever he ius should be put away until his very old age.
David | 04.16.08 - 10:25 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I think that you people are forgetting that most of these people were raised in seclusion and indoctrinated with a different belief system than you or I have. Therefore, to blatantly and maliciously attack the mothers in this case is wrong. One should instead be angry with the leaders of such compounds, because they after all are the ones who indoctrinated most of the compound. What is sad is that to the young women who are married off to older men more than likely do not view it as being \"forced\" but rather as their duty as a woman and a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

And in response to Susan's post \"Lilathe, get over your absurd obsession with CPS is being a killing machine.\" Whatever happened to an open discussion? It doesn't seem fair to criticize one's opinion unless it is done constructively. Perhaps the number of children that die in care of the CPS is significant perhaps not, but the point is she has a right to view the issue they way she sees fit.
Natalie | Homepage | 04.17.08 - 8:21 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Warren Jeffs Gives Marriage Instructions to children below.

Warren Jeffs Explaining POLYGAMY http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fb...h?v=fbudqrmFSDs

Warren Jeffs #2 Cont. on Polygamy http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk...h?v=RkXA2JxGrJw

Warren Jeffs #3 Continued on Polygamy http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JW...h?v=JWzXCdehMI4
Jay | 04.17.08 - 9:57 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Warren Jeffs Explains the NEGRO Race curse of god (his god)

Warren Jeffs Negro Race Part 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nS...h?v=nSgZzTkYiz4

Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eV...h?v=eVzQZm75Nco

part 3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nX...h?v=nXo8qNxUlCU

part 4 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=L6...h?v=L6TNp63ZCZ0

part 5 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BS...h?v=BSKHLbxkkec

part 6 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x7...h?v=x7YI3Q6U4Bw

part 7 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8G...h?v=8GUEpNbPxx4
Jay | 04.17.08 - 9:59 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Warren Jeffs, now jailed FLDS Polygamist prophet of Eldorado TX enclave explains how the EVIL will be SWEPT from the earth (we as gentiles are that evil)

The Evil Swept From The Earth Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=v9...h?v=v9dvjyOymIU

The Evil Swept part 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD...h?v=ZDsNzzCyCS4
Jay | 04.17.08 - 10:02 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Because Utah & Arizona did not address this, the migration to flee prosecution in the other states, caused Texas to inheret the group and the social service cost to correct it.

While traditional family values are touted, there doctrine allows for women and children to be reassigned to new husband more worthy.

Red Jessop former second councilor to Warrens father Rulon Jeffs had 100 children, but non were his. Mumps as a boy rendered Fred Sterile. Approx. a dozen families were reassigned, giving Fred a larger progency, to be a greater GOD in his next life, or so the FLDS doctrine or theology goes.
Jay Beswick | 04.17.08 - 10:09 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ As the former child abuse prevention rep. of FOR KIDS SAKE in Utah, just 26 miles from the FLDS community, the statistics of abuse within Foster Homes outside of Utah may be higher. Since reunification with parents are the standard, reunification within 2 weeks by 90% of child victims, the chance to be reabbused is nearly that same percentage. Foster home studies pre 2000 put forms of abuse at 15% plus and while less than perfect, considerably lower than the home environment that caused the child to be removed.

Parents are more often angered by the public exposure with child parent relationships strained.

In America you do not have a right to abuse your child simply because you created him or her.

The attorney now in Texas long time FLDS lawyer Rodney Parker, threatened me in March of 2001 when as a child abuse rep. I merely reported abuses to state and county agencies. The man is a compulsive is it LIAR or LAWYER, but for money his firm took 6 million alone from the FLDS Stubbs vs Jeffs case. Its a good read a history of the true FLDS;

http://www.childbrides.org/Jeffs...transcript.html
Beswick | 04.17.08 - 10:22 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Thanks Beswick for the link. Looking.
Susan | Homepage | 04.17.08 - 10:32 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Your welcome, I have over 500 of Warren Jeffs audios, 10,000 pages of church text. I know this group well and have spent days and nights with friends in Colorado City AZ where they originated from.
Beswick | 04.17.08 - 11:05 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Then you might be interested in my latest piece about the Lost Boys

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree....polygamist.html
Susan | Homepage | 04.17.08 - 11:07 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Jay, thanks for all those links. Checking them out.
Susan | Homepage | 04.17.08 - 11:17 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ You don't see why the mothers are at fault? They turned their blind eye numerous times if this was one parent that had several children being abused by their husband you guys would be all over this! I am tired of people NOT blaming the mothers!
MeL | 04.18.08 - 2:52 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ MeL of course we see the mothers at fault. How could they not be charged with child endangerment, and neglect as well as a few other things as per the statutes.
Susan | Homepage | 04.18.08 - 3:51 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Can someone tell me where is all the money coming from that is building, buying and sustaining this place???
Robin | 04.19.08 - 3:05 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Since the mothers are yesterday's victims, and the children are today's victims, why are they the ones suffering here? I say take the men off the ranch and let the women have their children back in a safe environment. It seems injust that the women and children are still the ones suffering..if the men were arrested, everyone would be safe.
Marmee | 04.19.08 - 9:29 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Marmee, the men cannot be arrested until the DNA is in proving who is the father of who and who raped the young girls. The mothers certainly aren't going to turn them in, which makes THEM just as responsible.

Secondly, the documents cannot even be gone through until a special master goes through them to separate what can and cannot be used by the state to bring charges.

Thirdly, what were they supposed to do, leave the kids, leave the fathers and let the rape continue while they built a case against the fathers?

They took it by priority and and the law. They protected the kids and NOW they are doing their investigations to prosecute who needs to be prosecuted.

They couldn't just take the men.. they had to do it legally.
Susan | Homepage | 04.19.08 - 9:41 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ If there is no proof, how did they take the children?
Marmee | 04.19.08 - 9:58 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ You say they can't take the men without proof...then how can they take the children without the proof. NO....don't leave the kids to be raped...if they are, but don't we need that proof before tearing families apart? Some of those children must be absolutely terrified and the mothers in sheer panic. That is a woman's worst nightmare...losing her child.

The women appear to love their children..they may be brainwashed, sure, but that could be remedied with the right influences. Give the women a chance to leave with their kids and I bet you they all will.
Marmee | 04.19.08 - 10:10 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I think it is disgraceful that the American authorities \"kidnapped\" those poor children at the \"Yearning for Zion\" Ranch. Once again the Imperialistic USA imposes its' twisted values on simple people (even in its own country this time). Those children need their mothers !!!
Shame on you America - roll on President Obama !!
A concerned South African citizen.
Clive Matthews | 04.21.08 - 5:35 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ For all those who believe this is so \"normal\" why do you think the men are fleeing?? If you have done any research on these types of incidents of abuse you'd understand this is not right..why on earth are there pregnant kids?? keyword KIDS!! how on earth do you think this is normal.. I don't mean to come off so rude..but WAKE UP AMERICA..these women and children are brainwashed!! DO you know how many children die of incest within these communities they have baby grave sites for them it's SAD and disgusting I hope all these abusers rot in hell
Keri Matthews | 04.25.08 - 10:11 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I don't feel sorry for these women of the YFZ CULT at all. There are many types of ABUSE. Turning a blind eye is ABUSE. Failure to protect your children is ABUSE. Turning over your daughters and turning out your sons is ABUSE. We are not interested in the welfare of the mothers in this case, just the children. It's sad to say that it is probably too late to help most of these mothers; but hopefully the children can be \"reprogrammed\" to live a happy, healthy, and prosperous life. Oh, yea...and I am sick and tired of \"PICKING UP THE TAB\" for their child support in the form of welfare. GET A JOB LADIES!
Kelly | 05.01.08 - 10:55 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Did anyone bother to ask what the children wanted before taking away their loving mothers and tossing them into the gulag of foster care ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9...h?v=9VEhdOOOzZg
karen | 05.06.08 - 12:25 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I have been reading alot about flds lately and apparently the situation started awhile back when Warren Jeffs basically declared himself King and all the people had to give up all their property to the church. This gave him alot of control over them if a teenager refused to get married her whole family could be tossed out of the community.
They gave Jeffs complete power over their lives by giving up control. Now many stupid People are just as ready to give up every constitutional right there is to \"catch the evil mormon pedophiles\". Do you actually think people will be treated any better without their Constitutional rights than the FLDS people ?
Who is more foolish here ?
How is what Warren Jeffs did any worse than people from poor families being forced from sheer economics to join the military which leads to them being injured, maimed and killed ???

Im sooo tired of hearing people whine about evil mormon pedophiles when the whole country is full of suffering unemployed people in distress. There IS no way to stop child abuse short of everyone living in glass houses and watching eachother constantly 24 hours a day.
If the the right to religious freedom had not been violated to begin with by making polygamy illegal, people wouldn't end up having to do it in closed religious sects where they are taken advantage by their leaders.

Rape and teenage marriage never seemed to be a big problem until the FLDS were targeted. Every big city has plenty of rape victims, teenage mothers and prostitutes working the streets.
This is all about religious persecution and corrupt profiteering by selling others peoples children for adoption and foster parents who do it for the govt money. Yea thats right nobody but real parents like cleaning shitty diapers for free.

Even if all these rumors about FLDS abuses are true, these women and children are victims they don't deserve to be arrested without warrants and tortured and possibly \"accidently\" killed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9...h?v=9VEhdOOOzZg
karen | 05.06.08 - 5:39 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ What i am tired of is people referring to these mothers as \"loving\"... any mother that allows her underage child to be raped, isn't loving at all and is just as responsible as the man that rapes the CHILD.

Get a clue why don't you. These children have been suffering sexual abuse and anyone that thinks the mothers are innocent is dreaming.

No we cannot stop all abuse but it is the authorities JOB and obligation to stop it once they know about it..PERIOD.

loving mothers ...jeez, that is like calling Hitler a jew lover.

You really need to start thinking about the children and how horrible it is for child rapist to be allowed to continue and how any so called mother could allow her child to be raped.
Susan | Homepage | 05.06.08 - 6:01 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Do you have proof that these women were raping their children ? Didn't think so.

Don't leave the kids with those evil Mormon witches send them here...

http://www.hope4kidz.org/news/te...X_08182004.html
karen | 05.06.08 - 6:46 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Well actually I do agree with Susan on one thing the kids are \"freer\" to talk without their mothers around to interfere with their being tortured.
cheers
karen | 05.06.08 - 7:09 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Back up with FACTS these kids are being tortured by the state (as you imply above) and possibly \"killed\"..in fact, back up all your stupid, fruit loop assertions, bitch.

We're tired of the shit coming out of ignorant, liberal assholes like you.

Start backing it up or back the hell off and leave.

Got it?
Miss Beth | Homepage | 05.06.08 - 9:04 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I'm with Susan. Ive' read everything everyone has written, and she has the most compelling and interesting facts/argument. Thanks Susan.
Jesse | 06.21.08 - 8:06 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Are we fucking serious, all thesse bastard fucking 30+ men who fucking cant get a girl their own age litterally neeed to diieeeee for doing young girlsss. R U SERIOUSS i want to torture all these fuckkssssssss who r using religion as an excuse to bang 14 years old girllSSsS. Im not religous cause its all fake these guys need to dieEe.Seriously this is one of the most disgusting things Ive everrr hearrd. Texas needs to step the fuck up and put all these predators in jail. Holy shit im soo pissed right now i would probably murder all of these guys if I had the chance this is so fucked up. I am seriously about to recruit like 10 people and go kill all these fucks
Ron Jice | 10.29.09 - 2:47 am | #

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