Read the commenting rules carefully because they will be enforced!
Now maybe these children will have an opportunity to grow up healthy and well adjusted and not warped by this sick cult.
I hope so Katie.
This is plainly religious persecution. Leave them alone! How about this: if I don't like someone, I can report that they are abusing their children, and those children will instantly be taken away with no questions whatsoever! Stop persecuting religion in the name of "protecting children". Any church will contend that children of another church are not being raised right.
I think I see your point. How about this: Suppose I have a friend who lives in the same community as me and believes and practices the same religion. And suppose that someone filed an accusation against him of child abuse. Should merely my association with this person and sharing of religious beliefs be sufficient grounds for the government to come in and kidnap my children? If we let them get away with this, where will it stop? What freedom? Guilty by association and assumption? Kidnap now, ask questions later... And this is America???
This is not religious persecution, it is rescuing the children from an unhealthy environment. Warren Jeffs called the prosecution of him religious persecution, it wasn't.
These women and children have been treated with contempt and abuse all their lives. Whether it is done in the name of religion or not, it is still the same thing. And abused children need to be removed by the authorities for the good of the child.
In today's world if your neighbor has a beef with you all he or she has to do is call the authorities and claim that you abuse your child. They don't even have to give a name.
Susan, it just came through on CNN the count is up to 137 children.
I hope the state keeps them, they would have a better chance of living without being sexually abused that way.
right on Katie.
No matter some call it religious persecution--nowhere in the Bible does it say it's okay to sexually abuse children and enslave your women. That's a twisting of scripture and is in no way religious.
Child abuse is child abuse, period--and those screaming religious persecution can KMA.
Susan, another update, and not a good one:
http://apnews.myway.com//article.../
D8VS1V380.html
No child should be subjected to having sex with 50 year old men. This is not about religion.
This is not religious persecution, it is rescuing the children from an unhealthy environment. Warren Jeffs called the prosecution of him religious persecution, it wasn't.
These women and children have been treated with contempt and abuse all their lives. Whether it is done in the name of religion or not, it is still the same thing. And abused children need to be removed by the authorities for the good of the child.
No matter some call it religious persecution--nowhere in the Bible does it say it's okay to sexually abuse children and enslave your women. That's a twisting of scripture and is in no way religious.
Child abuse is child abuse, period--and those screaming religious persecution can KMA.
Miss Beth | Homepage | 04.05.08 - 6:14
me are no understand so many sorry but be see it is so rigth and no badly. cours jung person wont know the body and if he get in a way a rigth information are beter as he get it know as in a sex dust shop.
Way from the op person say the dusty sex shop stil ok and so by the tray a way for beter free have live to see it normal--was is the badly.
Her are be duing a doubel toking and it is rong.
how dusty in church mission still duing sex. and he duing in famely frind and women man give tray a differend free beter understand. how the body ask for food and drink.
thing it brgin dusty if it be make dusty ronger.
in the bibel be red how many women the king david have. God say no rong.
But if he tray to sand from the lady his man in the wor and he be kill god no like it. and David king see and say sorry.
Hallo and sorry me no understand her so well.
but one me see rigth.
wos you in amerika like?? If be see the strong syex Vidio and duing by eny out border in sex clubs. dung sexgame free how pain and strong no one are thar say it is bad.
Her are tray sam one free differend for man -wife and jung person to explane beter self the body to understand.So many are start for enjoy and like.That it is no be see dusty as be in 1200 to 1800 in church mission duin g and no ask if it ok. eny mean thar are rigth. and in the bildings are duing strong stil sex. Still the papst no agree for married -now one are still married. and how be it lie to say no duing sex.
her are duing to understand in group man-- women and jung person for in understanding for no see it is rong.
me understand that no all are perfekt but beter as sex bars
Jeff got what he deserved and Barlow should head on to prison, and these women and children need to be exposed to true civilization. they have been cacooned in a world of terror and abused and they do not know any better. The state is doing this community a favor, and this practice of religious freedom is not civilized, religious or even humane. our world and communities needed to be cleansed a lot more now a days.
Katie et al, you sound pretty sure of yourself in regard to the alleged sexual crimes committed by this FLDS group. Were you there? Common sense and reason prompts this question for you: They estimate between 300 - 400 people at the compound. Of that number, about 200 children have been removed. That leaves 100-200 adults? Now if each man is said to have multiple wives, how many of that remaining 100 or 200 people could be men? Maybe 50 or so? So now how is it that 50 men could build an entire city, complete with a utilities infrastructure, not to mention a temple as well, and still have any time left for low and filthy habits of sexual abuse against young girls?
This is not about religion. Its about rescuing children from a bunch of pedophiles. These guys are abusing children in the name of some lying freak non prophet,who is also a pedophile.They choose to believe in a god of their understanding, my god has nothing to do with what they are doing.
Thanks Sam.
Well, G, let's see--you're numbers aren't matching the news reports so either you're behind the news or you're being purposely disingenuous.
The last report I heard was over 400 children and CPS is now formally taking custody of children after interviews, examinations, and evaluations.
I'd say that speaks for itself. Not to mention we're talking teens being forcibly married to men old enough to be their grandfathers, without their choice or consent.
Guess that shows your apologist attitude is full of hot air, eh?
I'm not sure which bible they follow. I am not aware of any bible on Earth that suggests this practice. I believe the religion was started by a group of immoral, ignorant men whose sole motivation was to find a way to "legalize" having sex with multiple women of all ages and being able controlling them. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with sex! They were just lucky enough to find a few women they could brain wash. Now, girls are born into the ignorance of men and don't know of any other way of life. Since these men just made up a religion to satifsfy there sick sexual desires I wonder why no woman ever made up her own religion. How about one woman marrying multiple men for the sole purpose of becoming wealthy? Each husband must work however many jobs is necessary to meet the income quota set by his wife. The men are also responsilbe for all household chores, cooking,and child raising (if the woman decides to have children). Oh, and the woman decides whether or not she wants to have sex with any of her husbands, or anyone that's not her husband for that matter. The men must be completely faithful and can not even speak to another women without his wife's permission regarless of whether or not his wife choses to have sex with him. The men can not even leave the home, except to work, without the wife's permission. The man's sole purpose in life is to make money, obey his wife's every command, and hope that someday he may be good enough to be chosen to raise his own children, or atleast have sex with his wife. Throughout nature the female is the one who choses with whom to mate, therefore, this must be god's intention.
A question to polygamists: does my new religion sound absolutely ridiculous? It's not all that different from yours, just a simple role reversal.
I'm not sure which bible they follow. I am not aware of any bible on Earth that suggests this practice. I believe the religion was started by a group of immoral, ignorant men whose sole motivation was to find a way to "legalize" having sex with multiple women of all ages and being able controlling them. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with sex! They were just lucky enough to find a few women they could brain wash. Now, girls are born into the ignorance of men and don't know of any other way of life. Since these men just made up a religion to satifsfy there sick sexual desires I wonder why no woman ever made up her own religion. How about one woman marrying multiple men for the sole purpose of becoming wealthy? Each husband must work however many jobs is necessary to meet the income quota set by his wife. The men are also responsilbe for all household chores, cooking,and child raising (if the woman decides to have children). Oh, and the woman decides whether or not she wants to have sex with any of her husbands, or anyone that's not her husband for that matter. The men must be completely faithful and can not even speak to another women without his wife's permission regarless of whether or not his wife choses to have sex with him. The men can not even leave the home, except to work, without the wife's permission. The man's sole purpose in life is to make money, obey his wife's every command, and hope that someday he may be good enough to be chosen to raise his own children, or atleast have sex with his wife. Throughout nature the female is the one who choses with whom to mate, therefore, this must be god's intention.
A question to polygamists: does my new religion sound absolutely ridiculous? It's not all that different from yours, just a simple role reversal.
Right on Jan! Where do I sign up? lol. I watched a show on Discovery last night about how females in many species dominate mating. They pick their mates and many of them! You might just have something there. The reason women have not used this theory as a basis for "religion" to satisfy their own desires is because women are smart enough to realize that it is not moral or even rational to control and abuse another human being, not to mention children.
Jan, I'll sign up for that "religion"--lol. After all, it DOES follow what God has decreed in nature, after all--where else would we get the term "Queen Bee"?
On a more somber note, your role reversal is a perfect illustration of what these women and children go through, and not knowing any better, believe it to be true. Nice take on that, and why didn't more of us think of the role reversal illustration you used? Good job!
Before you breathe a sigh of relief, you need to check into the facts of how many kids are sexually molested or abused while in state care. The little children are more likely to be molested or abused once in state care than they were before it.
Look up the statistics and see for yourself.
Helpful it would be to explore
http://geocities.com/cybornography
http://angelfire.com/realm3/cybrotica
You know what? The fact that my kids can't find a Bible on the shelves of their school library is religeous persecution! Being told that marrying 13 year old girls to 50 year old men is wrong is not! It is SICK and God is NOWHERE in that place! Rest assured! As a child that survived years of physical & sexual abuse before at the age of 14 I got out of the situation, I applaud the great state of Texas (my home by the way) for having the BACKBONE to do the right thing!
Sure they can claim religious persecution. The abuse of women has been a practice in all religions, some in lees degree others to the extreme as we see in the case of this group. The following is an excerpt from my book, Africans and Their Descendants Do Not need Moses, Jesus or Mohammed".
"The abuse of women is in the Old Testament as well as the New. 1Kings 11:1-3 indicates that King Solomon had 700 hundred wives and 300 hundred concubines (girl friends). Is this not a lesson in greed? Did this idiot think the women were his personal property? How could they enjoy connubial relationship with a man who could not be with them for more than three years while he is making his rounds, one woman a night? Even if he had Viagra, he couldn
’t possibly be with a different woman every night of the year. You can believe he had his favorites with whom he spent more time. The others were simply ‘wasted’, denied the opportunity of having a marital relationship with ‘real’ men who could love, cherish and raise a family with. I hope they cheated on this greedy fool. This man could not be a prophet or one to admire and respect. Yet, he was blessed as king of Israel and considered a prophet. Another example of immorality of the Bible! In the New Testament, paul tells women to shut up in the congregation. He forbids them from speaking about religious matters.
The abuse of girls in these religions stem from horrible lessons from the Bible such as what we see about David and his son Solomon. Do you think the 300 wives and 700 concubines, 1,000 women, all were courted to be his mistresses? I believe he followed his father
’s example, used his power of the kingship to seize and force young women, and more than likely, underage girls to have sex with him. He kept them in the compound of the palace, isolated in their quarters. Of course they could not see any other men. The young girls were denied opportunities to be with their lovers and sweethearts and were forced into a relationship with this greedy old man. They were abused by the King but they had no choice.
Warren Jeff and his folks take their cue from Solomon and his father. Were they condemned for their abuse of women Not at all!? These women were the king
’s property and could do with them as he wished. David was blessed to have Jesus as his descendant. God’s throne was established with David to time indefinite. Dan 7:44 says that the Messiah would inherit David’s throne.
Child molesters, rapists are found in all religions, especially with their leaders, Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah.s Witnesses. They do it without fear of the law. They have inhouse judges who adjudicate issues. More often than not they slap each other on the hand. Abuse of women is not considered seriously because women are considered as meat to be used. This is not an Old Testament issue. It is an issue of religion whether Christian or not. Moslems abuse women even more. They have no power and no standing in Islamic societies."
Why do women tolerate this abuse. They do because they have been brainwashed into accepting it as the will of God, whoever he/she/it might be.
It is very hard for me to believe that our society allows the practice of polygamy to be so rampant, where old men are openly having sexual relationships with under age children without much regard and respect for the law of our land. Do you know how many young men and women, in our wider society are behind bars serving long-term sentences for committing maybe least crimes, while these so call religious polygamists and self-righteous people are getting away with it? Why is it that our authority finds it so difficult to prosecute these culprits? If this was happening in another country, chances are we would be the first set of people to condemn these acts against children. However, right in our backyard we ignore the problem. What about our other Christian churches? Why are they so silent on this issue? Perhaps many of them cannot speak out because under cover, they are committing similar acts of immorality against their own people by twisting the Bible in the name of God to generate large sum of money for them. This reminds me of a well-known preacher from a church in Orlando where the preacher preaches on many occasions that he would never drop his pants for any other woman but his wife. However, a few weeks ago he was caught cheating on his wife with their baby sitter. He took a few weeks break from his parishioners but soon gone back in the pulpit preaching as if nothing happened. His billboards are still up all over the city displaying his picture and his motto of a family church meeting family needs. I listen to his telecast a few times since his return. Many of his sermons seem to direct at people who may want to criticize him for his behavior. I think many religious leaders in our society like Warren Jeff, are driving fear into people that if their members do not comply with them, God is going to severely punish them. I applaud churches that are not caught up into these false claims.
What gets me is this quote from Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran, "We are aware that this group is capable of (sexually abusing young girls)," Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry. I've said that from day one." (taken from http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04...ref=newssearch)
How on earth could law enforcement officials ignore what was happening??? Even without the disgusting incidents of child rape, you've got polygamy openly being practiced, and that is illegal!
It was a powerful image, of the children from the FLDS Church campus being removed in baptist church vans!!! This is without a doubt religious persecution!!! Makes me sick. So much for tolerance in the good ole usa. So much for separation of church and state. It is wrong for people in power who have authority to abuse it like this.
Think for a moment about all of the young girls who are abused in a truly criminal manner in our great society. The runaways, drugs, prostitution, pornography etc. Lets not attack a fundamentalist religion that is doing good.
Get your proverbial heads out of your asses and realize the world is larger than just your own little comfort zone. How would you like being persecuted for your own stupid religious beliefs???
Sorry Bob, but I've lived in San Angelo, TX. They have very few school buses, no mass transit and the only other buses available are from local churches. I'm sure that school buses and prison buses were also used.
You said: Think for a moment about all of the young girls who are abused in a truly criminal manner in our great society. The runaways, drugs, prostitution, pornography etc. Lets not attack a fundamentalist religion that is doing good.
You're wrong about that. Any child subjected to brainwashing, propaganda from a religious zealot (whether it is Baptist, or FLDS), forced to marry an older man at the age of 13, 14, or 15 (could you imagine what it would be like for a 13 year old to face a 50 year old man?) and not given an education is child abuse!
So, Bob, I guess you agree with pedophilia masquerading as religion, and 13 yo pregnant girls, huh? Sure you're not a muslim because that's what islam preaches too.
Welcome to insanity Beth where people think that there is nothing to be considered abuse when 17 yr olds have 4 kids already and 13 year olds are being raped after having been "spiritually" married to 50 yr old men or where women hold a girls baby and sit and watch while the girl is beaten and choked by that older man.
Just another day in the life of a "normal" kid huh?
What happened on that compound is pure and simple evil. Justifying it as 'religion' is just like Osama bin Laden claming 9/11 as a victory to Allah!
It's warped, it's evil and it's wrong!
G Haskins, Bob;
Are you polygamists? Or plain dirty and unattractive men fantasizing having sex with young girls? I thought so.
What about the American government aiding and abetting a known fugitive?
http://markinchicago.typepad.com...merican-
go.html
"Yes, Christianity is the one true religion. That may sound awfully dogmatic and narrow-minded, but the simple truth is that Christianity is the only true religion. Jesus said that He alone was the way to the Father (John 14:6), that He alone revealed the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22). Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, narrow-minded, stupid, and judgmental. They do so because they believe what Jesus said." Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry (CARM). That being quoted, I would also like to ask, if this compound had been an Islamic one, everything else remaining the same, would the reactions of the government been the same?
i think that these peopl need to get with rality and it wasnt right for them to taky their children away
Guess you approve of child abuse and knocking up teenage girls by dirty old men, huh Rachel?
Odd that seminaries in which Catholic Priests are thought to have molested boys are not raided, children are not rescued and carried away in Baptist buses, and Catholic mothers are not deprived of their rights to raise their own children due merely to their affiliation with that sect.
Child abuse is never okay, but it is my sense that this huge reactionary movement stems more from religious differences than from fear of abuse. If you're afraid for the children, remove the men who have offended them, but do not deny mothers the right to raise their own children simply due to their religious affiliation.
Again, if this were a Catholic community with several offending priests in it or a Baptist community with several offending pastors, CPS would not go in and remove hundreds of children. They would (hopefully) remove the offenders as legal entities should and leave non-offending parties (aka mothers) alone. The same articles that talk about the abuses to the children involved here also talk about the abuse of the women within the compound. What about the women? They are victims as well, and we are punishing them for being victims.
The men ran--or didn't you catch that? The mothers stood by and let it happen..or didn't you catch that either? Seminaries weren't molesting young boys--seminaries are schools like universities. And, FYI, there were significantly fewer children molested by priests over a 50 year time span than are molested by public school teachers in a year. Further, the Church has taken a hard look at what it covered up an taken appropriate measures in reparations--as well as the prosecutions. Or did you miss that as well and just want to keep bringing up crimes that have been addressed?
My post was much less focused on attacking Catholics and much more interested in equity, or "didn't you catch that?" When the defensive reptilian brain kicks in, reason seems to stop.
The men ran ... okay. So, since they cannot be punished we need to find someone to dig our claws into. I know, the women who were abused by the men! That makes sense.
The analogy would be just as applicable if we were looking at public schools. Your child is abused by a teacher. It's a tragedy, right? So, now CPS sees you as an unfit parent due to your affiliation with the school. Makes sense; you should no longer have custody of your child.
I thought that we lived in a country in which you are innocent until proven guilty and that does not discriminate based upon religious affiliation. We can sit back and criticize the mothers for not standing up to their allegedly abusive husband, just as we can criticize mothers of any religious (or non-religious) affiliation for their indiscretions in raising their children. However, is the inability to stand up to an abusive husband (which, by the way, does not necessarily go for all of these women ... not all were married to men accused of the crimes reported, so it's just having religious affiliation with women who did not stand up to their husbands ... stretching it far now) sufficient reason to remove children from their mothers?
'Seminaries weren't molesting young boys,' duh. Neither were 'temples' or 'ranches' or whatever; that is typically an impossibility for inanimate objects. In every case, individual men were the offenders, not organizations. Deal with the men, but do not go on a crusade to 'save the heathen children' behind a thin shroud of secular reasoning.
My post was much less focused on attacking Catholics and much more interested in equity, or "didn't you catch that?" When the defensive reptilian brain kicks in, reason seems to stop.
The men ran ... okay. So, since they cannot be punished we need to find someone to dig our claws into. I know, the women who were abused by the men! That makes sense.
The analogy would be just as applicable if we were looking at public schools. Your child is abused by a teacher. It's a tragedy, right? So, now CPS sees you as an unfit parent due to your affiliation with the school. Makes sense; you should no longer have custody of your child.
I thought that we lived in a country in which you are innocent until proven guilty and that does not discriminate based upon religious affiliation. We can sit back and criticize the mothers for not standing up to their allegedly abusive husband, just as we can criticize mothers of any religious (or non-religious) affiliation for their indiscretions in raising their children. However, is the inability to stand up to an abusive husband (which, by the way, does not necessarily go for all of these women ... not all were married to men accused of the crimes reported, so it's just having religious affiliation with women who did not stand up to their husbands ... stretching it far now) sufficient reason to remove children from their mothers?
I think RK is INSANE and SICK in the head!!!! The priets and pastors get put in jail. The people in church do not practice molesting children. The priest and pastors who do this our just as sick as Jeff Warren!!! His people practice this and do this!!! And the women letting this happen to their children should be thrown in jail too!!!! You must not have kids!!! You are just as sick as Jeff!! ALL OF YOU SAYING THIS IS OKAY YOU NEED TO READ YOUR NEW KING JAMES VERISON BIBLE AND GET RIGHT WITH GOD BECAUSE YOU ALL ARE SICK IN THE HEAD!!! THIS IS SO SAD TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE THINKING THIS IS OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have just finished reading the book, Stolen Inocence, written by the young woman who brought the charges against Warren Jeff, after which I read some of the news articles and came across this site, This whole situation is much more complex than religious percecusion or sexual abuse, each of us determines what is right and wrong based on our knowlege, our experiences, our laws and our "societal norms". a hundred years ago, woman were considered a mans property, there was no such thing as a husband raping his wife, domination of woman and children was a mans right, girls married (in our society) at young ages, (teens, yes) and had children (quite often they were married to much older men) So we all might stop judging for a moment and consider this, in many ways as our society changed and evolved and woman stood up together and said stop, this society isolated themselves, whether in the name of religion or not, they choose to remove themselves from the changing world....do not misunderstand me...I find what was happening to these people horrible and unjust....just as I do whenever I read or watch a program on the past lives of woman in this country and most other countries. Before we persecute and judge to harshly maybe consider that the men in this society are raised to beleive that they are meant to control, that it is their duty....just as the woman are raised to believe what their role is....after reading the book "Stolen inocence" you cannot help but feel deep sadness for the whole situation...men, woman and children..In our society we have choices and options, children are taught that they have rights and taught where to go if they need help...the sadest part of this situation is that they are all taught to fear the outside world and that they are not even aware that there is a place to go for help.
Emily, I'm going to try very hard not to mock you for how utterly ridiculous you are being, but it appears that you are merely angry with me for offering a reasonable argument, and since you cannot offer rational rebuttals, you resort to name calling and even saying such idiocies as "You are just as sick as Jeff!!" If anything, this merely proves my point on mindless bigotry in the name of religion. 'Someone disagrees with me ... what they say actually makes rational sense ... they must be sick in the head and godless.' (Note: If you don't even know the name of the person that you are attacking, then that too does not bode well for your aura of intelligence. His name is Warren Jeffs, not Jeff Warren.)
First of all, I do have a daughter, and I would protect her virtue with my life.
Secondly, I do read the King James Version and pray constantly that I might be 'right with God.'
And now that we are past the ad hominems, let's get to the point.
I never said that 'this was okay.' I never attempted to justify the child molestation that occurred here behind a veil of religious practice. I never said that child abuse was okay. (If you will actually go back and read what I wrote, I stated the exact opposite in very clear terms.) And I certainly never defended the practice of polygamy.
So, what DID I say? I merely said that the offenders should be punished (a.k.a. the child molesters) and that the rest (namely the wives) should not be dubbed 'guilty by association' merely because of their religious affiliation. That is it.
Sue (and almost all news stories on the topic) points out very clearly that the children are not the only victims here; the fully-grown women are victims as well. So, why in the world are we coming in and punishing these women for the crimes of their husbands or spiritual leaders? Going back to my original post, that would be like punishing the mother of a Catholic boy if a priest were to molest him. The primary difference between the situations is religious affiliation, and the fact that these women were not able to, as Sue states, 'stand up together and say stop' to their abusive husbands.
As far as I can see, the women involved HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY CRIME. Is it 'INSANE' and 'SICK IN THE HEAD' to insist that the government should not take children away from parents who HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY CRIMES? Indeed, I am arguing this point precisely because I have a daughter, and I do not like the precedent of the government, being lead by bigotous fanatics, coming into my home and taking my child away from me without charging me of a crime merely because I might be connected to a religious organization that is not adored by the Protestant status quo. That is all.
I repeat: Punish the offenders, not the victims, and stop being a bigot yourself.
I daresay that if the mothers fighting for custody of their children were to denounce their religion and rush out and become 'Born-Again Christians' that most nay-sayers would be happy to return them. Sounds like we have decided in this country that certain religious groups enjoy the right to raise children and others do not. I'm sure that our Founding Fathers would be happy with our blatant disregard for the First Amendment.
RK, the child custody issues come first and are completely separate from legal action and criminal charges. The state of Texas must protect the children WHILE the cases are being investigated about criminal charges, if you knew anything about law you wouldn't even have uttered that comment.
The state AG has been put in charge of prosecuting any criminal charges that stem from the investigation, against the men for sexualy abusing underage children AND the mothers of neglect, conspiracy to rape and a few others not even mentioned but family ties, bloodlines and DNA is not even IN yet and the special master JUST finished deciding what documents could be used to investigate and which ones were protected by confidentiality.
Do you always put the cart before the horse?
Fact: CPS witnessed abuse while there which gave them sufficient cause to remove the children to dtermine if the environment was safe for any child.
FACT: After the initial interviews there was sufficient evidence, via multiple underage girls being pregnant, for the judge to give temporary custody to the state.
FACT: The special master went through the documents taken from the compound to determine what could be used in determining family ties AND in a criminal investigation.
FACT: When CPS goes into a home and determines abuse is present they remove ALL children WHILE the investigation proceeds.
That is how the system works whether YOU like it or not.
FACT: This is a community, not a household. This would be like CPS removing all children from a small, rural community if abuse had been suspected within a few families.
FACT: Most of the affected families had children removed not because there was suspected abuse within the family itself, but because they had religious ties to families in which abuse was suspected. Thus, they did not lose their children because there were doubts about their parenting; they lost them because of religious affiliation.
And yes, I understand how the system tends to work, and no, I do not like it. But, that is my right to say as a citizen. Just because a system works a certain way does not mean that it is constitutionally or even rationally sound. You're right, Susan, I do not like how the system works, but that does not make the situation any less appalling.
For more information on how CPS has 'worked' in this case to safeguard constitutional rights, here's an article of note:
http://deseretnews.com/article/
c...0225591,00.html
Hopefully I'm not posting this twice...
FACT: This was not a home which CPS removed children from; it was a community. So, I repeat, many women had their children taken from them not because they were suspect to inquiry regarding abuse, but because they were affiliated religiously to those who did. Thus, many women had children taken from them NOT because there was sufficient evidence to suspect them of abuse or neglect, but because they were FLDS. How many small communities in the US have underage pregnant girls living in them? How many, then, of these communities are raided? If this had been a community of virtually any other religious group (be it Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, or Muslim [which, by the way, is definitely pro-polygamy]), this would not have happened. Period. But since this is a relatively small sect which few outsiders seem to care about, it seems that CPS and other state agencies can get away with just about anything in dealing with them.
FACT: Just because a governmental system works a certain way does not make it either rationally or constitutionally sound. It is, therefore, the right of citizens to question the constitutionality of governmental systems.
Check out this article on how CPS went about raiding this community:
http://deseretnews.com/article/
c...0225591,00.html
"This is how the system works," Susan, "whether YOU like it or not." It is a system that is out of control, and no one seems to care now, because they're only sharpening their claws on little fringe groups like the FLDS.
Hopefully I'm not posting this twice...
FACT: This was not a home which CPS removed children from; it was a community. So, I repeat, many women had their children taken from them not because they were suspect to inquiry regarding abuse, but because they were affiliated religiously to those who did. Thus, many women had children taken from them NOT because there was sufficient evidence to suspect them of abuse or neglect, but because they were FLDS. How many small communities in the US have underage pregnant girls living in them? How many, then, of these communities are raided? If this had been a community of virtually any other religious group (be it Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, or Muslim [which, by the way, is definitely pro-polygamy]), this would not have happened. Period. But since this is a relatively small sect which few outsiders seem to care about, it seems that CPS and other state agencies can get away with just about anything in dealing with them.
FACT: Just because a governmental system works a certain way does not make it either rationally or constitutionally sound. It is, therefore, the right of citizens to question the constitutionality of governmental systems.
Check out this article on how CPS went about raiding this community:
http://deseretnews.com/article/
c...0225591,00.html
"This is how the system works," Susan, "whether YOU like it or not." It is a system that is out of control, and no one seems to care now, because they're only sharpening their claws on little fringe groups like the FLDS.
Check out these pictures of Jeffs kissing two of his obviously barely pubescent "wives" http://www.thesmokinggun.com/
arc...27081flds1.html. Enough to make your skin crawl. This isn't about "religious freedom," it's about a CHILD MOLESTER posing as a priest. He needs to be in jail or worse. He needs to be relieved of his manhood.
Jeffs IS in prison KW--how far behind the times are you?
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