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$\"Gravatar\"$ Amazing what happens to the dog that bites the hand that feeds it; it gets cut off and abandoned, left to it's own devices...
Hawk | Homepage | 11.18.07 - 1:31 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Yup. They got what they wanted and have discovered they don't want it at all.
Spree | Homepage | 11.18.07 - 1:37 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ But, in essence, the U.S. wanted the Palestinians to have a democratically elected government, and we, also, got what we asked for.

In Pakistan, we supported Musharraf, and this \"pseudo-democracy\" nuclear power is teeter-tottering on the edge, after making concessions to the Taliban.

In Afghanistan, we displaced the Taliban and watched as Karzai took the helm of what is still a teetering \"pseudo-democracy\" in which a new report shows how the revitalized poppy business is supporting the resurging Taliban on that side of the imaginary dividing line.

In Iraq, we pushed for, and got, an elected \"baby democracy\" that is still not showing full viability...and it probably won't reach that stability for quite some time...if it does and avoids partitioning.

All of the above are what we wanted, and also show the \"rule of unintended consequences.\" Among the many things that this proves is that while achieving a democratic Middle East is a laudable and desirable ideal, the road getting there will be pitted with potholes. Mostly, it shows, IMO, that superimposing Western style democracies on what are substantially tribal and Bedoiun cultures is not easy.
Stormwarning | Homepage | 11.18.07 - 4:18 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ First off anyone who thinks that changing centuries of chaos in the middle east would be \"easy\" is and was either foolish and/or ignorant.

I would also point out by the massive numbers in those young democracies that chose to vote in Democratic elections that nothing was \"imposed\" as you suggest but they were ready for a change to altar the self destructive cultures they had been suffering under for said centuries, and willingly were intent on becoming a democracy themselves.

We have done what we always have done and that is help them achieve their goals.

History is full of how we have helped others in what was never an easy battle, but always a worthwhile and noble cause.

We have chosen wrong ourselves here in a Democracy with much more experience in it and they will choose wrongly again as we undoubtedly will, tis the nature of being human.
Spree | Homepage | 11.18.07 - 4:46 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ As I said, its not \"easy.\"

In any event, what you write is true...and for the purpose of self-determination, the Palestinians were given a choice. It is that same self-determination that should be encouraged in Iran, so that the younger, Western influenced, Iranians might one day exert themselves.
Stormwarning | Homepage | 11.18.07 - 6:51 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I apologize, but to be honest, I missed something in my previous comment/response. I had written \"superimposing Western style democracies on what are substantially tribal and Bedoiun cultures,\" not \"imposed.\"

Anyway, thanks. I understand your point of view.
Stormwarning | Homepage | 11.18.07 - 8:37 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Giving Muslims what they want is suicidal. They want us dead or enslaved. They want total world conquest: \"religion will be for Allah alone in the whole of the world\". See Yusuf Ali's translation of 8:39.

Israel did not give them what they want, it gave them a sample. Islam demands the extinction of Jews & total domination of the Levant. They will never be satisfied by anything less. No compromise is possible.

How do you compromise with \"convert or die\"? They can't get to the celestial bordello until they kill the last Jew; see Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177.

Allah promised them that they would prevail: 58:21. Allāh has decreed: \"Verily! It is I and My Messengers who shall be the victorious.\" Verily, Allāh is All-Powerful, All-Mighty. O Prophet (Muhammad)! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundred, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are people who do not understand.

Israel, by existing, proves Allah's promises to be void. She is living proof that Allah is an impotent idol. No Muslim can tolerate that. For this reason alone, Israel will never have peace while Islam exists.

If Israel wants peace, she must move the Muslims out of rocket range. There is no other possibility unless she is willing to usher them into Hell.
Ben | Homepage | 11.20.07 - 3:38 am | #

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