Thank you, Spunky, for addressing this issue. It has been on my mind a lot since I am nearing college age and praying about what I am supposed to do.
There's a lot to be said for the European policy of (generally) taking a 'gap year' after finishing school. That means there's a break from full-time education, a dhance to explore possible career choices, or to do voluntary work (at home or abroad), and to think seriously about the future, and whether to go to college or not.
Some decide that university isn't for them; others are more firm in their decision to continue their formal education. But it gives a new perspective, allows them to grow up and be a bit independent without the need to think about academics or the assumption that college 'should' follow high school.
I don't think there's anything wrong with girls (or boys) going to university, but it should never be tne default. Surely it's best to do a degree only if planning a career that needs a degree. I went to university, despite doing a gap year, because my parents and teachers wanted me to, but it was really a waste of time. I'm no academic and wish I hadn't bothered. A friend of mine did a year's secretarial training instead and found it far more useful and fulfilling, and it enabled her to work part-time from home when she had children, to bring in a little extra income.
In the end we need to look at how God leads each individual, and remember that some don't marry, or don't marry until they're in their late 20s or 30s, or even later. Girls may well need a means of support if the right man doesn't turn up, or they may need to supplent their income at some point. And academically inclined girls shouldn't be discouraged from using the brains God gave them.
I only have sons but neither of them is particularly interested in college at present. They're both keeping it open as a possibility for the future, but will go if and when they feel it right, NOT at age 18.
I posted these comments on another blog, but I think it's appropriate to the topic...
I preface these comments with the assumption that a university and university program is chosen wisely, not blindly.
A good education for our daughters has many benefits. First, it can help train their minds. I firmly believe one of the best preparations for a ministry as a Bible teacher is several years of university level math. It helps train the mind. This education can help train their minds and give them confidence about teaching their own children.
Second, it opens up a number of interesting possibilities for them. Tentmaking missionary work, nursing at summer camps, teaching in Christian schools, etc. None of these would be available to them without an education.
Third, there is a strong possibility that they will need to support themselves some day (before marriage, during marriage or regretably after marriage).
Lastly, from personal experience, I would say and education can help a girl have confidence. I'm a very academically minded person, and it would be easy for my wife to become intimidated by my approach. But the fact that she has a degree from the same university as me (and took some of the same courses as me) is a source of confidence to her. This doesn't mean that she too is going to have an academic approach or all the same interests as me, but deep in her heart she knows she doesn't have to be intimidated by me.
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I think we should rethink the idea that anyone should automatically go to college. It's an expensive way to spend a couple years deciding what you really want to do and what your life priorities really should be. I ended up doing 8 years of university, completing two 4 year degrees. It was a long haul, but I finished without any debt and have had some decent jobs since then that would not have been available to me without my education.
I've sometimes thought it would be a good idea for a young person to take a year "off" after high school, get a job, earn some money, and come to grips with the kind of jobs they are limited to without further education (college or technical or apprenticeships, or whatever). However some kids who could benefit from additional education might never go back to school if they stop, so it's a tough choice.
All this being said, I think the right program at the right school can be a significant blessing for all of our children. Learning how to think, communicate and interact with technical specialties is NOT the exclusive domain of men.
As an FYI, can I point people to Augustine College in Ottawa? It was founded by some experienced professors from the local universities for the purpose of providing a one year program to help young people learn to think and interact with their culture. Many of the students are homeschoolers and many of the professors have been active in supporting homeschooling in the Ottawa area. The web site is at http://www.augustinecollege.org/
I think there may be a whole lot of single Christian women out there who may take exception to the idea that their only destiny is getting married. I know a few wonderful, godly, single Christian women. Nancy Leigh de Moss is not married and serves the Lord mightily. I am not a big advocate of sitting around waiting for Mr. Right, either. There are a myriad of ways for young women to serve the Lord until such time as they marry (or not marry, as the case may be),post secondary education being one of them.
Society is very complex, and to get a good job may take more training than the first twelve years. I don't think university is very everyone, either, but in my case, we have very academically minded children, especially my daughter. I believe that is something God gave her and we are responsible to nurture that in her. I have told her often that even if she never has a "career," training her mind will only make her a more interesting person to talk to and a more effective Christian, provided of course that all post-secondary training is accompanied by continual, regular doctrinal training.
"For all our children, we don't have the idea that they MUST go to college right from high school. They MAY go. But I would be just as happy if they took a missions trip for a time or did something else. There are many options available to our young adults. I'm not limiting God with just what our culture says is the norm."
Exactly how we feel.
"If we want to train to do something well, we train for what we expect we will actually be doing... Women who train to be breadwinners can expect to be very good breadwinners, but not necessarily very good breadmakers...or homemakers."
I am a bit baffled by the notion that a college education is simply training to be a breadwinner or is in any way incompatible with being a good homemaker. Training the mind can certainly be part and parcel of being an excellent homemaker, parent, homeschooling mother, family budget manager, etc. Critical thinking and writing skills, exposure to different subject areas, even (depending on the college setting) exposure to those who have different ideas and values (which may also result in an opportunity to be a Christian witness)...all are positives, to my way of thinking.
I recently came across an interesting website, Got Me a College Girl:
http://gotmeacollegegirl.blogspot.com/
in which Christian women discuss the issue of college at greater length.
Best wishes,
Laura
Sue,
I am curious you said " There's a lot to be said for the European policy of (generally) taking a 'gap year' after finishing school." What did you mean European policy? Is this stated somewhere in policy or just a cultural norm?
Laura,
thanks for the link. I'm going to have to take a look.
I appreciate everyone's comments. I was a little unsure when I posted what kind of a response I would get. This has been very encouraging to me. Thanks.
Everyone has said some really great things which I agree with and could have posted myself. I am so glad I have a BA in biology. It has freed me up from having to learn math and science to being able to focus on my weak areas: English, literature, and history. After homeschooling for 19 years, I no longer think that those are weak areas for me. Many times self-education is justifiably touted in homeschooling circles. However, I have found that my children are able to go farther than they would have (as experienced through homeschooling six children) when I, as their teacher, am better educated myself. Many homeschoolers will make judgements on what is important to learn and what is not based on their own personal experience not realizing what they don't know. I am a big proponent of homeschooling my children to the glory of God and integrating mental work as well as physical work as the means by which my children grow in "wisdom and stature." We mature as Christians through the things we do in our every day lives. I do believe that girls can greatly benefit from being under the tutelage of more knowledgable professors in a college environment. They will be better helpmeets, friends, and companions to their husbands; and they will be better mothers as they homeschool their own children. My new daughter-in-law is a junior majoring in history. Her husband, my son, is graduting this spring with a degree in electrical engineering. My son is very happy to have a wife who "uses what she has" maybe a crude way of saying a wife who uses the gifts and abilities God has given her. Having no desire to work outside the home for fulfillment, she wants to be a wife and a mother.
One can learn outside of a school environment, but quite often that learning of the more academic sort is difficult to know "what you don't know" unless there is a guide. Then also sometimes it's hard to make ourselves do hard things like study without some outside accountability.
Another thing about waiting, and which I disagree with previous posters, is that I think exposure to various subject matter in a college environment might well help the young adult figure out what he is interested in. Also it can be very difficult to go back to school after doing other things especially when demands of family become increasingly pressing.
After all I said, I do want to emphasize that I don't believe that everyone should go to college. I agree with those who have posted about the Lord's leading and direction in this matter. I also would not consider a collge education ill spent if a child of mine went to collge, got a degree, and embarked on a career which didn't require that degree. As someone said, college isn't always about the job one can get.
Quick, think of ten women you know well enough that you know: 1. what degree if any they have and 2. whether they are using their degree.
1. My mom/some college/never used it.
2. My sister/some college/not using it.
3. My other sister/some college/not using it.
4. Me/some college/not using it.
5. My sister in law/nursing degree (obtained after age 50)/using it.
6. My other sister in law/some college/not using it.
7. My last sister in law/no college/not in need of degree
8. Pastor's wife/college degree/not using it.
9. Pastor's daughter/college degree/not using it.
10. Pastor's other daughter/some college/not using it.
OK, I did that quickly without thinking ahead of the outcomes. Most of those women are not Christian homemaking types. Most are or were full time in the work force. I see a pattern here, and it doesn't indicate much need for a college education for women. If they want it, ok, go for it. But it doesn't impress me as a great need.
But what does it mean to "use" the degree? If you're talking about the degree itself as a finite product and whether or not one has a career related to the major field of study, that's one thing.
But what about the actual process of education? Can it actually be said that these women didn't benefit and "use" their education in the sense of having their mind stretched, skills sharpened, etc.? I may not "use" my history degree in the sense of being employed in that field, but I use my college education daily -- it became part of who I am.
This is not to say there are not other equally valuable life paths or that there are not other means to become "educated." But, in my view, a degree is not simply a commodity that one works for -- it's an educational process through which we learn and grow. Further, the specific content learned in my college education has been helpful in many areas of my life, whether it's teaching my children, writing my blog, and so on.
Best wishes,
Laura
Education is a good in and of itself, and for someone who hopes to homeschool, a good with very obvious benefits for a stay at home wife and mom.
Plus, studies indicate that a woman's education is of benefit to her entire family. Men who have better educated wives earn more and/or are able to work less hours than men of a comparable educational level with less educated wives.
It is just silly, IMO, to try to pretend that higher education is just a career ticket, and not a set of skills that can be used wherever one ends up.
I have a degree in math and computer science. I like to joke that I have balanced far more meals than Algebraic equations. That said, I would agree with the last few that my education has been very valuable in our home even though I am not "using it" in the career sense. I also agree with Shawn Abigail that the higher math training is so helpful to critical thinking.
I like to joke that I gave up programming computers to program my children's minds. I'm not sure which is harder.
In all my work as a computer programmer and as a software development manager, I've probably only "used" a weeks worth of the math I studied from high school through university (yes, it was a ticket I needed to punch, but I didn't "use it"). If pure utilitarianism is the goal, as homeschoolers let's stop teaching math beyond grade 8. But if our goal is to train minds, let's do whatever it takes to get our children an education (possibly including university).
On a related note, can anyone suggest a good curriculum in Euclidean Geometry for my Grade 4 child. I can't think of any reason why she couldn't start learning it this summer, and it is useful in developing logical thinking.
I went to a secular state college and have found it to be very useful in my life as a mother.
I extensively studied human anatomy/physiolgy and biology, including working in a cadaver. I have used this knowledge in sharing with others about pro-life issues.
I was also heavily involved in music and this has been a great gift for my family.
Some of my homeschooling friends who don't have college degrees have had to homeschool under the supervision of a public school teacher, but since I have a college degree, that state restriction does not apply to me.
But by far the best thing about college? It's where I met my wonderful God-given husband! 
Everyone keeps talking about how there are things to be gained at college even if you don't use your degree. I'm curious about the things that can be lost. Even in evangelical colleges, major Biblical doctrines are being challenged. I am training my kids to know why they believe what they believe so that if they do go to college, they will be prepared to make a defense of their faith and to stand firm. But I know that for me, personally, my college years were my lowest point spiritually. It seems to be the period of life that most kids challenge what they've been taught by their parents and the rules they've been governed by.
If any of my kids want to pursue a profession that requires a college degree, I will whole-heartedly support their decision. But college just for the sake of an learning? Not so much. I know many people who started out their adult and married life in major financial debt for a college degree that they will never use.
I went to college, and yet the majority of knowledge I have gained has been from my own pursuit of it, not from assigned topics.
The folks over at Atypical Homeschool have an interesting thread on their forum about how much of what we know actually comes from our public school/college education. The majority of people have learned more on their own than was taught to them in school or college.
atypicalhomeschool.net
"But I know that for me, personally, my college years were my lowest point spiritually."
Just to present a flip side, I think it was during my college years that my faith was truly cemented. Living away from home for the first time, I found myself relying more than ever on my relationship with God. And being challenged, whether by liberal professors, the decisions of other students, etc., led me to a greater understanding and confidence in my own beliefs, rather than the opposite. I "owned" my long-held beliefs in a new way, as an adult. Obviously, having a strong grounding at home to begin with, and knowing why one believes what one believes, is critical before entering into this kind of experience.
This won't be true of everyone, of course, but I think that, for me, college and living away from home for the first time was a time of spiritual growth and maturing.
I am really enjoying reading everyone's point of view, I find it a very interesting topic. Best wishes --
And what's with the idea that critical thinking skills come from college attendance? I don't have anything against someone who wants to go to college, but I find it to be highly overrated.
I've known too many graduates of "higher education" to think that is what creates a critical thinker. I have no doubt that it's the best way for some people to accrue knowledge. If so, then I say go for it. Also, there's no substitute for it in order to get into many professions. But to think it's going to mold you into a better person (wife, husband, minister, etc.) then I think you're fooling yourself.
And when I say "you're fooling yourself," I was not speaking to anyone in particular, just the general "you."
Sorry, I wasn't very clear! It's not a stated policy at all, indeed some countries in Europe (such as Cyprus!) only allow college for those who go straight from highschool or military service.
Cultural norm is a much better phrase. I don't know statistics, but certainly in the UK most of the teenagers and young adults we know *expect* to do a gap year or two before going to college or full-time work. When I was that age, 25 years ago, it was less common though it still happened, but these days it's considered by many to be a much better idea. I gather that many other European countries encourage teens to do the same kind of thing.
The comment after mine referred to the same idea, and said that a possible disadvantage is that some young people might decide after all not to go to college with a year outside formal education. To me, that's an advantage! Unless someone is committed to the idea of further education, then what benefit is there at all? IT's always possible to continue study at home, or by correspondence, or through the Open University, as many people do. But actually going to a university for three or four years simply doesn't suit everbody. If a gap year helps someone to make a decision not to go, then surely that's all to the good. they can always go later on (if necessary outside their own country) if they change their minds.
Amy K. When I referred to helping with critical thinking I was specifically referrring to higher math and logic. Those classes have been very helpful to develop my critical thinking skills.
Carrie K. I agree that much can also be lost in college. That is why I said there are other considerations if college is chosen. And with proper guidance before hand. I came to know Christ my frehsman year and my whole attitude toward college and what I was learning began to shift. College was in many ways a high point of my spirtiual life. I had excellent discipleship that set me on the path that I live today. Homeschooling was introduced to me as an idea (1981) and the idea of courtship not dating. I was spared a lot of hardship because of what I learned through these believers. I am thankful.
I think that Jennie Chancey's experience should serve as a red flag. Here is a short summary of her CD at Vision Forum: "Jennie B. and the Pilot"
"But four years in a Christian college undermined a lifetime of father and daughter unity by cultivating a feministic spirit of rebellion and ingratitude....This is the amazing story of one daughter’s heart journey from faithful daughter to feminist, and then back home again." http://www.visionforum.com/
searc...productid=87660
I received this CD as a Christmas gift, and I would highly recommend it!
I am curious, what about training as a teacher in case the state ever makes some kind of requirement that only "qualified" people can teach? My wife and I both have education degrees and that seems to relax people that worry about the quality of our children's education. I don't believe a degree is necessary, but someone, someday might.
Does anyone have any recommendations for a young Christian girl who feels that the Lord may be leading her to not go to college whose mother is not supportive of anything but further education?
I was raised with the idea that the highest ideal for a woman is wife and motherhood and college is not necessary.
I never attended college and married a week before my 20th birthday. I spent a long time feeling embarrassed at my lack of education. After awhile I realized that "education" and "college degree" are not mutually exclusive, and I am more comfortable with myself.
I don't think there is a right or worng here. Surely God has a unique plan for each person. I definitely think we can be quality people without a degree - but I don't think we should say no for every girl. God alone knows the future and the needs for that young woman.
I agree with your family's approach, Spunky.
As I mentioned in my post, my mother was married at 19. She had her fifth child by the time she was 23. I guess I'm thankful that she didn't wait and go to college. I probably wouldn't be here! So in a very practical sense I have to be very thankful for my mom's decisions.
Amy K. When I referred to helping with critical thinking I was specifically referrring to higher math and logic. Those classes have been very helpful to develop my critical thinking skills.
That could be helpful. However, you can get that information without going to college, and not everyone who goes to college gets that information.
Absolutely Amy. I wasn't saying that higher education contributed to my critical thinking but higher math and logic. I also don't think that college is the ONLY way to get this. I was merely saying that my higher level math and logic class have helped me greatly. And true enough that not everyone who goes to college gets that information. Clearly they don't.
Robert that was the motivation for some of my friends. However, in practicality they have said that most of their courses were designed for teaching in a classroom. So I wouldn't waste my children's time with a degree for that reason alone. I would rather they study something they are interested in. Getting a teachers certificate just for the event of a requirement would not be my first choice.
Mrs. S. I would point you to things from the Vision Forum that Jessica recommended. Also there is a link on my sidebar to Courtship Connection that may offer some materials.
The Fourth Carnival of Homeschooling is up at The Common Room--
http://heartkeepercommonroom.blo...g-
carnival.html
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