Dr. Baucham makes the following comment:
"Let me be clear; I applaud men and women whom God has called to teach in government schools. These people are front-line warriors and many of them need to be right where they are. However, there is a big difference between sending “fully trained” disciples into enemy territory and sending our recruits to our enemy’s training camp."
I too applaud "fully trained" front-line warriors. But my limited experience in public schools did not find very many "fully trained" front-line warriors.
I make the following comments at Ask The Principal:
"Overall, my concern with any Christian actively "assisting" another Christian to send their children to public schools is causing fellow Christians to be deceived."
and
"From my experience as a school board member (I resigned at the end of June 2006), Christian parents repeatedly told me about their child's Christian teacher and Christian principal and therefore, "my school is not that bad" AND their Christian teacher or principal would never teach the "bad stuff"."
If you read The Principal's Good Morning! Good Morning! post, you will see that even The Principal as a "fully-trained" front-line warrior was forced to teach the teachings of Satan.
Again, I applaud Christian public school teachers who are promoting the Gospel, but with the current condition within the public education system, their presence COULD BE causing more harm (deception) than good.
As I stated, my experience is limited and could be wrong. I would like to hear from Christian public educators who are being effective, who are encouraging Christian parents to keep their children at home, and who are proclaiming the dangers of the public education system.
Thanks for the link to this article Spunky. It was exactly what I needed to hear this morning.
The more I hear Mr. Baucham speak (he was at NCHE this past year) and read his writings, the more I like the guy!
This article was a boost for me to read too. I've written or said to others many of the things he says in this article. It was heartening to read his convictions come through loud and clear in this post.
Spunky,
I love you girl! However, I am afraid you just don't get why so many of us send our children to public school. Do you think you understand why Christians send their children to public school? This article is no defense for why you should NOT send your child to public school. To me, sadly, it just shows incredible misunderstanding.
I still love you and pray blessings for you and your family!
Thanks for posting this!
Pie
If you like Voddie Baucham, the go listen to his presentation at the 2006 Desiring God Conference held last month in Minneapolis. His topic is "The Supremacy of Christ in a Post-Modern World." You can listen online for free.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Resou...stmodern_World/
Enjoy!
Charley
http://
www.homedisciplingdad.blo...ad.blogspot.com
http://
www.riseupandgetserious.b...us.blogspot.com
Pastor Baucham also has a phenominal sermon on youth evangelism and the family. I have listened to it countless times already. You can find a link to it on my blog at:
http://homedisciplingdad.blogspo...tional-
gap.html
Charley
I am afraid you just don't get why so many of us send our children to public school. Do you think you understand why Christians send their children to public school?
Why do you?
Do you really want to hear? I have shared here before, but will be glad to again. If I share my response in Christian love, could I expect coomments in repsonse to also be in Christian love? I am all for having strong opinions (I have a few myself 
)! Attacking and judging another Christian because they don't have the exact view does not help anyone. My purpose would be to further understanding between Christians and bring glory to the Father.
The article quoted in this post makes severaL assumptions about why I should not send my children to public schools. I would like to talk about those in explaining why I do believe that God wants many Christians to send their children to public school.
Many blessings today to all!
I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want to hear it. And it has been my experience that the commenters on this blog are fair and fairly nonjudgmental.
I agree Amy. If this debate is to occur, let the assumption of all of us be that no one is attacking another, that all points of view are resepected. That's my general rule when reading all comments here.
But that doesn't mean that all points of view will be accepted or left unchallenged by someone else. If you choose to put your thoughts here, others are free and able to counter them with their own thoughts and reasons why they disagree. That is what civil debate is all about.
There is a huge difference between clearly stating why I choose to homeschool and telling other people that they must homeschool too. In fact one of the very first things Dr. Baucham writes is, “First, I would never suggest that everyone should educate his or her children the same way we educate ours.”
As a mom raising a daughter with a developmental disability, one of things that I must embrace is that the Bible is not a set of stereo instructions. With all my human heart, I would love to open my Bible to the section on disabilities and read chapter 5, verse 12 and get a clear, black-and-white “word from God” concerning the decisions I have to make. To youth group or not to youth group, to government school or public school, to use a mood stabilizer or not to medicate… all those tough questions. I lack the wisdom needed to answer any of them.
If the Bible were written to give such clear directions, I would never approach God in prayer. I would never look to mature Godly men and women to uphold me, come along side of me and mentor me. I would just follow the directions. Instead, I must use prayer, Bible study and fellowship to negotiate life.
I am called to be a good steward. I must look at our financial resources, the needs, gifts and resources of my child, and my personal gifts and desires. After prayerfully considering all these things, I make my decision. God sovereignly placed my daughter in my home. He gave me a unique mix of gifts and passions that strongly influenced my decision to homeschool. My child has flourished at home. We have enjoyed and needed the freedom in our schedule this year.
I do understand that there exist many Christian parents who, having read the Great Commission and evaluating their child(ren), found them passionate about God, willing to stand against the crowd and feel Spirit-led to send their children to a government school. I know that there are people that don’t feel that they are gifted or called to educate their children in their own home. And… I have spoken to moms that want to bring their kids home with all their heart and have not done so because their husband doesn’t agree with homeschooling. I also know that there are many, many more Christians parents who have never spent a moment of time thinking about whether or not a government school is the right place for their child. The only parents I would ever take issue with is this last group. Our children are simply too precious and their education is too important not to carefully and prayerfully make this decision.
“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.” James 1:5
Spunky,
First let me say I have noticed that your responses to those who might not agree with you have become much more gracious. I very much appreciate that!
And Julie,
Wow! You have taken circumstances that could be hard and have let God use them. I believe just by sharing your story in the comment above you are giving God glory! I am so thrilled and thankful God is blessing you as you homeschool your child!
You also say something I very much agree with--Christian parents should think about how they educate their children--not just assume they are going to use public school/private school or homeschool. I would take issue with this group of parents, also. It seems you know more than I do, I don't know that many, but in most cases for those who never seek God's plan for their children, I would have huge issues.
To Amy,
Yes, Mr. Baucham does seem gracious about homeschooling at the start of his post--but then--this is the first assumption he seems to pursue as he continues:
The scriptures he quotes are "proof" that God wants us to homeschool.
I do hope I am wrong on that assumption--and he's NOT saying that.
I can read these scriptures and hear very clearly TO send my children to public school. Do you think that is possible?
I have a couple other assumptions it seems to me he's pursuing and I will try to get to those also.
Many blessings!
I am very curious. Which scripture says to send your children to public school where they are not taught about God. As far as I am aware most schooling in those days(Jesus on earth) took place in temples etc. Would it have been OK for a Jewish child to go to the temple of other gods? Is that not what caused so much grumbling when they left Egypt, they kept wanting to go back to the gods they knew. Granted Moses did great things but even he was first trained by his mother and was not bought up Jewish but as an Egyptian prince and probably went to their temples. God had his plans and retrained him for many years before he could go back and "do his job".
Anyway I am not saying you are wrong sending your child to public school. I am just curious on what in the bible you are basing it.
Jenn,
I so appreciate your saying I am not wrong to send my children to public school!
The Bible doesn't say to homeschool any more than it says to send your children to public school. It's a matter of interpretation. The way I read Mr. Baucham's post was that the only way to read those scriptures was to homeschool. That's an assumption I cannot agree with.
However, I appreciate your asking about how I can send my child to public school where they are not taught about God. I consider this another faulty assumption of Mr. Baucham and many others. How do you know children don't learn about God in public school? My children learned much more about God than if I had homeschooled them. Teachers are limited somewhat as to what they can say, but students are parents are not! Also, some of the most Godly lessons my kids learned from teachers were ones were no words from used--the most powerful way to show Jesus is most often by how you live. Powerful!
I am not saying you are wrong to homeschool--I just truly believe there are some wrong assumptions--and we can better support and encourage each other if we understand what's going on.
BTW, from reading this blog, I have learned that many homeschoolers don't feel validated by other Christians--it's my desire that those that public school understand homeschoolers desire to follow God, too. I am so sorry if you've felt judged in any way. Bad assumptions on either side--are damaging.
Also, I am saddened when Dr. Phil or anyone tries to make homeschoolers look wierd--some of my favorite people in the world have homeschooled their children--and they are not wierd but very wonderful--and I am upset with them when they feel so misunderstood and misrepresented.
Blessings to you!!!
jettybetty, was your post of 3:59 your answer to my question?
The Bible is not silent about education or how to educate our children. That is the point of Voddie Baucham's blog. Just because we are not specifically told WHERE or HOW to educate our children does not mean that all options are open to believers or profitable for our children. Like Mr. Baucham said, I am not saying that all children are to be educated by homeshcooling. But the biblical case for Christians parents placing their undiscipled children into the secular/ungodly state schools isn't clear to me.
To quote Mr. Baucham,
We can no longer coast along and ignore biblical truth when deciding where and how to educate our children. The Bible is not silent on this issue. We will be held accountable for our obedience or disobedience to the Bible’s teaching in this regard. We must do everything in our power to place our child in an educational environment that facilitates their discipleship. We must do everything in our power to avoid the influence of government schools, which are incapable of bringing our children up in “the nurture and admonition of the Lord (Eph. 6:4).”
May I mention an assumption you have made here Spunky?
"But the case for Christians parents placing their undiscipled children into the secular state schools isn't clear to me."
The Christian parents I am speaking of here--that put their children in public school--DEFINITELY DO disciple their children. Do believe otherwise is a false assumption.
Yes, we will be held accountable. The *government* I am accountable to is the kingdom of God.
Blessings!
I think you may have misread my statement. I made no assumption. I do believe Christian parents who put their children in the schools do disciple their children. All parents disciple their children, Christian or not. So do the teachers in the school. A disciple is a follower of an idealogy or teacher. All children, are by their very nature undiscipled. That's the whole purpose of education- to create disciples and why Voddie Baucham titled his blog, Education the key to discipleship. The state knows this as well, that is why they make getting an ungodly education available. They have no desire or interest in creating disciples of Christ. In fact, they hope for the exact opposite and that's why they work so hard to undermine all parents, especially Christian parents. People without a belief in Christ and detached from their family will naturally look to the secualr state as their protector and provider.
But I said that placing UNdiscipled children in the secular/ungodly schools is something that is biblically unclear to me and something I don't see as an option. A young child even one who at an early age professes a belief is Christ is still undiscipled. He has yet to be trained and learn the things of God. To put Him in the counsel of the ungodly at an early age is not something that I see in scripture as an option.
jettybetty,
Since I started homeschooling, I have had many questions about my decision; almost everyone I talk to enrolls their children in government school in kindergarten because that is the cultural norm. They don’t pray about the decision. They don’t study the Bible. They don’t evaluate the textbooks. I’ve even met some that didn’t meet their child’s teacher until near the end of the first semester when parent-teacher meetings were scheduled.
My daughter is 14-years-old and this is only my second year homeschooling her. I adopted her as a single woman and I could not homeschool. I had to work to put a roof over our head and food on the table. Then as her developmental problems became apparent, I felt that the special ed teachers were better able to meet her needs. She came home to school because she could not handle the increased responsibilities, freedoms, social stress and chaos in Jr. High.
[Teachers are limited somewhat as to what they can say, but students are parents are not! Also, some of the most Godly lessons my kids learned from teachers were ones were no words from used--the most powerful way to show Jesus is most often by how you live. Powerful!]
I believe that you and I would define disciple very differently. Even when my daughter was in school, I wouldn’t have seen what you have described as teaching her about God. She was taught about God at home during family worship. Many times during family worship, I had to clarify what she had learned about God from her peers. Because, although 65 – 90% of kids claim Christianity, research done on this age group consistently shows that these kids do not believe in the deity of Christ, often have rejected creation. What she learned from her peers was simply wrong biblically.
Watching a person’s behavior can teach morals. But morality is not Christianity. In fact, I would say that when a person embraces a religion in which man is required to earn his or her salvation by good works, that person’s behavior is often better than the behavior of Christians who believe in salvation by grace. Fear is a great way to motivate good behavior.
No matter where a child learns to reading, writing, history, math and science… the child should be taught to think and act like a Christian in their home. Who am I? I am God’s crowning glory, an image bearer and a special part of creation. This image of human’s should be acted out in how they treat other people. Why am I here? I am here to glorify God and pour my life out for Him. What is wrong? Men are inherently sinful. How can it be fixed? Yet, Christ…
I apologize if I missed something you were trying to say.
You have said a couple things here I think are wrong assumptions.
"In fact, they hope for the exact opposite and that's why they work so hard to undermine all parents, especially Christian parents."
This may be your opinion, but from my experience of being public schools, it's just not true. You have every right to your opinion--but it's not scripture--and it's a false assumption about public schools.
"A young child even one who at an early age professes a belief is Christ is still undiscipled." You have quoted this before and I really don't understand it. It seems to go against scripture to me. I respect your right to your opinion, but where in the Bible does it say parents must protect our children until they are 18? I maintain this is another false assumption.
Do you believe I have any false assumptions about homeschooling? I am trying to listen.
Amy,
I tried to START answering your question in the 1:51 pm comment. I've tried to state what I believe are false assumptions in further comments also.
We sent our children to public school because we believed that's what God called us to do. It worked for us (our children are young adults now)--and it's hard for me to see public schools so totally misunderstood in any forum. I passionately believe God is at work in public schools--it's hard work for Christians to put their children there--and I think they should be encouraged--not torn down.
I hope I can encourage any parent that believes God wants them to homeschool.
I just believe Satan so wants to tear Christians apart--and dividing over debatable issues is heart breaking to me.
I pray I have spoken truth in love.
Many Blessings!
As far as the schools working to undermine the parents, this is not just Spunky's opinion but well noted in court cases beginning with Also the supreme court decision in 1985, New Jersey v. T.L.O. which ruled that while the schools operate in place of the parent (in loco parentis) they still operate as agents of the state.
And more recently, the Ninth Circuit court of appeals Palmdale decision which stated
"parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students. Finally, we hold that the defendants' actions were rationally related to a legitimate state purpose."
And in more anecodate ways, the recent riot drill without parental involvement or consent, Teen Screen mental health screening without parental consent or notificaiton, a recent schools decision to allow the FBI to interrogate a girl without any parental and legal representation and this schools blatant undermining of the mother's wishes all speak to a state which views it's authority in education higher than the parent. This isn't my opinion this is documented court case decisions and proven over the course of many educational incidents.
You also asked,
"But where in the Bible does it say parents must protect our children until they are 18? I maintain this is another false assumption."
This is not an assertion I have made, so I feel no need defend.
I stated,
"A young child even one who at an early age professes a belief is Christ is still undiscipled."
What is a disciple? Someone who knows, adheres to, and promotes the ideas of another.
A young child who professes a belief in Christ has yet to learn all that a folower of Christ needs to know. He needs to be taught.
This is born out in the life of Jesus himself. His early years were spent under the direction of his parents in obedience to them. He didn't begin his "ministry' until much later. It is also born out in the lives of almost all the new testament disciples. They walked with Jesus and were taught by Him. After their conversions they turned away from the things of the world and walked in solid devotion to Christ learning from Him not the secular scribes who were much better "educated". And they were all adult men when they were converted. No children among them. That's because they were still undiscipled and needed to learn the Truth before confronting the lie. How much more for our young children, who the scripture declares are "bound with foolishness."
Before we can ever expect our children to confront the lies of this age, they must be grounded in the Truth. That isn't an instant process that happens at conversion. If it were, there would be no need for pastors and teachers according to Ephesians 5. Nor would there be a need for fathers. But clearly, God places a priority on the father's influence and teaching of his children.
Deuteronomy 6 Father's when you rise up and walk along the path teach these things to your children. This is just one of many scriptures that demonstrate that WHO and WHAT we teach our children is of the utmost importance.
That isn't to say a young child can't be a witness for Christ. Don't make that assumption. Clearly, they can. But like any apprentice "in training" they do so under the watchful eye of the Master Craftsman. They are not left to do it alone until they have demonstrated their abilities under the counsel of one wiser than they are.
That is exactly what I meant when I said that the young are still undscipled. Our children are not to be left to the unskilled secualr "craftsman" of the schools to undermine their teaching at home and promote the lies of another who seeks to kill and destroy.
Spunky,
Just because you can quote some court cases here--doesn't mean every student in public school deals with this--yet you seem to be emotional like they do. These are isolated cases. I can honestly tell you this never happened to us.
What if the courts make rulings against homeschooling--what are you going to do? I hope you continue to do what you believe God has called you to do--and homeschool no matter what.
If I am called to put my children in public schools--court rulings won't make a difference. I have seen God repeatedly protect--truly there is no reason to fear here. God is sovereign.
And, you said:
"A young child even one who at an early age professes a belief is Christ is still undiscipled." This is the quote I was asking for a scripture for--not what you have in your last comment.
Blessings to you!!!
Julie,
You sound like a sweet and wonderful momma.
We prayed so much about putting our children in public school. My definition of discipling is teaching someone to follow Jesus--to be like Jesus. We used what they experienced, and heard at school to teach them about how God is working--and how as a disciple they should respond. Being a part of the schools was such a tremendous blessing for us.
If you think I was a bad parent for what I did--I don't know what to say--except I love that you are following God--teaching your daughter--and I encourage to keep doing what God calls you to do!
JB, you said Just because you can quote some court cases here--doesn't mean every student in public school deals with this--yet you seem to be emotional like they do. These are isolated cases. I can honestly tell you this never happened to us.
I never said every student deals with this. And I admitted that the cases wree anecdotal.
My original statement was that the state has
no desire or interest in creating disciples of Christ. In fact, they hope for the exact opposite and that's why they work so hard to undermine all parents, especially Christian parents.
You asserted that this was just opinion. It's not. The court cases establish the truth in THEIR opinions in these cases and the state's intentions and goals. This is not about what you experienced or "my emotions." The fact that you never encountered this doesn't make it untrue and only my opinion. I have never experienced a hurricane. Should I doubt their destructive intent simply by own experience. No. The state's intentions are quite clearly stated. I believe the opinon of the court when it says that they are allowed to disregard the parents if it is the best interest of the state. Their destructive intent to the parents authority is obvious.
The public schools do not have the goal of discipleship in Christ. The Bible states that he who is not for me is against me. The schools are by Biblical definition working against the cause of Christ because the are NOT for the cause of Christ. Thus they actively undermine the Christian parent's biblical exhortation to "create discples" in their own children by false teaching and ignoring the teachings and Truth of Jesus Christ.
The decision to place our children under the discipleship of those who are against Christ is not, in my opinion, permissiable for the Christian parent.
If I led a new believer to Christ, I would not send them into a church teaching false doctrine for discipleship and expect them to be unaffected by the teaching. (And that's just a couple hours a week!) How much more for my young (believing or unbelieving) children do not belong under the false teaching of the state which works agains the cause of Christ for six hours a day. I cannot expect that they will come out unaffected by the teaching. Bad company corrupts good morals. He walks with the wise becomes wiser still but the companion of fools suffers harm.
They may survive the experience, but like an untrained soldier sent into battle the wounds can last a lifetime.
I can read these scriptures and hear very clearly TO send my children to public school. Do you think that is possible?
Yes, but you still haven't told me how you reasoned on those scriptures to get that point.
My children learned much more about God than if I had homeschooled them. Teachers are limited somewhat as to what they can say, but students are parents are not!
I don't get your point here. It sounds like you're arguing against your position. Or are you saying that your children "learned much more" about God from fellow students than from you? Or that since they had fellow students to learn from in addition to you, they therefore learned more?
Also, some of the most Godly lessons my kids learned from teachers were ones were no words from used--the most powerful way to show Jesus is most often by how you live. Powerful!
For example?
We sent our children to public school because we believed that's what God called us to do.
Because of your aforementioned belief that they will learn more about Him by going to school? Or was there some other reasoning as well?
I passionately believe God is at work in public schools
What is your evidence for this?
So far, your only reasoning appears that they will learn more about God away from you. I was just wondering how you came to that position from those scriptures referenced in the article.
My own personal public school anecdote:
I have 3 children ages 12,9 and 5. My children attended public school until January 06. The initial reason I took them out was because my 12 y/o brought home his report card and he had 99% in every class. This kid never cracked open a book or studied for a test. Even before that, my staunch (some might say extreme) conservative voice in my head kept asking "if you really believe that government screws up almost everything, why are you letting the government educate your children?". My DH is the one who brought up homeschooling, and the kids were thrilled when they heard we were considering this. Now that we have been doing it for almost a year, I have to say, I wish I would have homeschooled from day one. As a kid, I really loved public school, and I still have great memories of it, but that was only 20 years ago, and it is not even close to being the same. I am learning more about the Lord right along with my kids every day. One thing I am really excited about this year is that we get to celebrate Christmas in school for what it really is, the birth of Christ! Imagine that. The kids don't have to learn about every other winter "holiday" and only get to learn about "Santa" not Christ. My 2 cents!
BTW- my kids attended public school in 3 different states, and they are ALL the same. Not only Godless, but hostile to God. I feel guilty that I let it go on that long. 
Amy,
My kids are young adults--all of them went to 13 years of public school--and I wish you could meet them--it seems you have such a negative picture of what a public school graduate is.
What I reason in scripture is not important--it's what the Holy Spirit guides me to believe. You see, my husband and I were not smart enough to know every circumstance they would deal with as adults--but so many things came up as they were in public school--and we were able to teach them through it. My husband and I are smart to enough to teach them academics. We believed God wanted us to teach them about everything else. That's why drills and such didn't bother me. I truly was thankful for teaching opportunties.
We had our children in 3 different school districts also. NONE of them were hostile to God.
We obviously have different political views also. I think that filters through all this. I believe God is sovereign and nothing happens that doesn't go through His hands--even in government and thus public schools.
I know I haven't answered all your questions, but it seems we come from such a totally different points of view--it seems we are not communicating.
Here's just some invalid assumptions I believe many homeschoolers operate from along with a short comment from me:
1. Christians that use public schools don't disciple our children. We do it differently from you perhaps--but this is of utmost importance to us.
2. Children under 18 are untrained and can't be put into *battle*. The Bible says a believer is a believer--I can't find any age mentioned.
3. Scripture supports (or at least strongly encourages) homeschooling. Scripture doesn't mention how to educate. The Holy Spirit should guide us to our decisions on how to educate our children.
4. Christians that put their children in public school don't even think about it--they just take the easy way out and eat bon-bons all day and let the government teach their children all kinds of anti-God garbage. If you think this--you don't know the Christians I know. If you know anyone that does this--I would most likely have issues with them, too. I just don't know any at all.
I wish the best for you--can you do the same for all your Christian family that uses public school--or do you choose to believe false assumptions?
Once again, blessings to you!
Jetty Betty, it is unncessary to defend any of these assumptions you state homeschoolers make.
You set up a false assumption, say we believe it and then expect us to refute it. (Your first two points were already answered in previous comments.) I said I believe Christian parents with children in the PS DO discple. All parents do. I never put an age on anything. I have talked about young and undsicipled children which by very defintion all children are. Please go back and reread the comments.
If there is a specific statement someone has made here, feel free to quote it and refute it.
Please stick to the topic at hand. Introducing possible assumptions homeschoolers make based without documentation isn't helpful to the discussion. The topic is not what homeschoolers believe about Christian parents who put their children in public school or vice versa.
It is about what the Bible says is in regard to education and discipleship of the children He has given us.. If you would like to contribute please contribute by offering your own biblical defense of Christians in the public schools not making statements about what you think homeschoolers believe or the assumptions they make.
This goes for all who choose to participate in this discussion.
Homeschoolers seem to be sensitive to someone (in a park or a grocery store) saying something or even a facial expression that makes them think they are not supportive of homeschooling. Homeschoolers get upset if Dr. Phil or anyone in the media makes homeschoolers look foolish or wierd.
While I am certain I don't understand homeschoolers--I have tried to never judge--make you feel like you are doing something wrong--or feel wierd. I don't support anyone else doing that--not media, anyone.
However, are you doing the same thing to public schoolers? Are you deciding for whatever reasons (even your interpretation of scripture) that they are wrong and must be told? How do you think that makes them feel?
I pray that God will allow me to love each of you so powerfully you can feel it over the internet. I know each of you are so worth it. I pray each of you feels supported. I believe God is love and if any of us are saved--it will be by His grace.
Blessings to you all!
JB. Please stick to the topic of the post. I don't want to get sidetracked by other issues such as the sensitivity of homeschoolers to criticism, Dr. Phil or false portrayals of who we are.
The goal of this post is to examine the biblical reasons for what we do. If you would like to participate please stay on topic.
I went to government school. When I was in the ninth grade (1979), my English teacher read a portion of scripture at the opening of each day. In high school, I was on student council and helped organize a special event. A local businessman had offered to provide pizza and a movie during an extended lunch period. The movie? The Jesus film. On Friday mornings during football season, all the football players went to mass at 6 AM on the morning of a game. We had fish sticks on Friday during lent. And… at Christmas, right in front of the school, was a large Nativity set.
My daughter’s experience in a government school is very different from mine. While I have never felt that the schools my daughter attended were openly hostile toward Christianity, God simply is not there. I don't want my child to learn that God is a God of Sundays and we don't need Him the other days. That is why I started to do family worship everyday.
When I was hired to teach at a state community college, I was required to be part of our state educator’s union. I got their literature. I knew some of the people who were leaders in the organization. While, I wouldn’t characterize the people I knew as openly hostile toward Christianity, their agenda is most definitely humanistic and cannot be reconciled with a biblical worldview. They see the world as a closed system. One that exists without a creator. Man, as the most evolved animal, is the center of all things and is responsible for fixing all of societies woes. They see the problems of society and sincerely believe that the problems can be fixed with more education and more government oversight.
[If you think I was a bad parent for what I did--] I don’t think you were a bad parent. In fact, if you raised three children to adulthood, and they are all living for Christ, I think you must be an awesome parent. The main point of my comment (that I obviously did a poor job communicating) is that while a child can be taught to act morally in a government school, a child cannot be taught to think like a Christian there. Instead of being taught that man is the crowning glory of God's creation, an image bearer, he or she will be taught that they are an evolved animal that has no divine purpose. Instead of being taught that their life purpose is to pour themselves out for Christ, he or she will see in the "teen scene" that humans are put on earth to have fun and be consumers. These false assumptions simply have to be addressed at home.
If you tell me that you were Holy Spirit led to put your children in a government school, I am not going to tell you, “No you weren't.” If you were obedient to that call, I applaud you. Just last week, Marissa and I started an inductive Bible study in Acts. You know, the word witness in Acts 1:8 comes from the Greek word martus. The concept being related is not just a legal term and doesn’t just describe someone who can accurately relate what he or she saw. What is being communica
To finish my last post: What is being communicated is that, “You will be my martyr.”
To start my next thought on this topic:
[Children under 18 are untrained and can't be put into *battle*.] Research studies done on youth and religion have consistently shown that 75 - 88% of teens who are raised in a Christian home will leave the church and deny its teaching by the end of their freshman year in college. We are, on the whole, doing a poor job of preparing our children to stand firm in a pagan culture.
You are right; the Bible doesn’t mention an age. However, that does not mean that the Bible is necessarily silent either. When Paul called Timothy into ministry he stated, “For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well.” (2 Timothy 1:5) We don’t see an age, but we do see a heart condition. In 2 Timothy 3:10-11, we learn that Paul and Timothy had a close, personal relationship. Paul had directly observed Timothy and had come to the conclusion that his faith was sincere.
In Luke 9 and 10, we read the story of Jesus sending out the 12 apostles and 70 disciples. Again, wouldn’t it be nice if the Bible were stereo instructions? I would love to be able to open that section and see a job description and qualifications for a messenger. But, we still can glean some truths from this section. First, all the disciples that were sent out had sat under the teachings of Jesus for a period of time. We don’t know how long this was, but we do know that it was long enough that they were able to accurately relate the message of the gospel. We know that they were given power to do the work that they were called to do. Finally, we know that they were sent to preach and not to learn. Again in this section we are reminded that the messengers were being sent as “lambs among the wolves.”
Which brings me to the assertion that I made yesterday. We need to be Spirit driven and not culture driven.
Jetty Betty,
May I ask you a question? I don't want to seem rude, but this has nagged at me for awhile.
Why do you come here to this blog?
You seem to think we are all overly sensitive to criticism regarding our views, yet at the same time you seem very sensitive to perceived slights from homeschoolers. You almost seem to be seeking affirmation or confirmation that what you believe is right.
I think it has been established time and time again through many different discussions that you feel there is no compelling Biblical reason to homeschool. Your exchanges seems to go in circles that repeat themselves endlessly.
But in the end, this is a homeschooling blog. You don't homeschool. Why would you spend so much time posting your decidely different views on this board? What goal are you attempting to accomplish through these discourses?
I would find it equally odd if Spunky or myself latched onto the blog of a public school teacher only to constantly try to make them understand how wonderful homeschooling is.
I'm glad you had a positive experience with public schools and that your children turned out wonderful. Is that the main point - that some public school kids do? I think we all know that, just as we know that not all homeschoolers will turn out that way.
I'm having a difficult time wording this right because I don't want to offend, I'm just genuinely bewildered by you. From your blog, you seem a very nice Christian woman. That's why your public school crusade here has me so confused.
This is my final thought on this topic, I think. I wanted to address one other thing that I had read, but I needed to take time to find the scripture reference.
[I believe God is sovereign and nothing happens that doesn't go through His hands--even in government and thus public schools.]
I believe God is sovereign too. But, that does not mean that I think that God will always wield his power in a way that is going to make life. If I did, I could not believe or trust a God who would allow a child to be born with a disability. If I make God answerable to me, I begin to think like a humanist. I would be using prayer and God’s power to make the world a place where I was free to consume and enjoy life. Humanist thought in Christian verbiage.
Habakkuk 1:5. “Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.” I saw this a promise that God was doing something good for me. Well…
Habakkuk 1:6, “For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans…”
The promise of Habakkuk is a promise all right, but not to do something wonderful among the Israelites. God was promising the Israelites he was raising up a government that would take over their land. The defeated Israelites were going into captivity. Yes, God had a plan and, yes, ultimately, God intended to bring Israel a hope and a future. Prior to their captivity in Babylon, the Israelites consistently and continually defied the direct command of God and worshipped idols. There is no evidence in the Bible or in secular writings that even hints that, after being slaves in a culture immersed in idolatry, the Nation of Israel ever returned to idol worship.
God was in control when our government was formed. God remains in control when our public officials are elected. I do not believe that God was sleeping when the government schools embraced and began to teach a humanistic worldview. But that does not mean I think that what is going on in the schools is something wonderful in my generation or that God is using the government schools as a vehicle for social change. What I do believe is that our culture is about to see just how bad a Godless society can get. And… yes, I do believe it will drive many, many people into a saving knowledge of Jesus.
Lara, I appreciate the question about why others visit here. But let's not get distracted from the topic of the post. I'm grateful to all who decide to read and comment here for whatever reason they decide to come. My husband at one point asked me to find out what is the attraction to my blog. I honestly don't know. It's not something I ponder all that much. I spend my time writing about the things that I think about. If others find it challenging and enjoyable great. Maybe I'll do a post on it some time. But for now let's stick to the topic of this post.
Well, I'm glad I stopped back, Spunky, because I do want to weigh in on this discussion.
Julie wrote: "While a child can be taught to act morally in a government school, a child cannot be taught to think like a Christian there."
As a public school mother and committed Christian, I would submit that I do NOT wish my children to be taught to think like Christians at school. Does this sound blasphemous? I hope not. I am just completely convicted, as so many of you are, that it is MY God-given responsibility to teach my children in His way. Indeed, one has only to read these posts, with their varying interpretations--even to the point of animosity--among sisters and brothers in Christ to realize that our views on matters of faith differ, sometimes greatly. I can truly say, without judgment, that there are some denominations of Christians which I would not wish to instruct my children, if only because I do not share in my heart their INTERPRETATIONS of scripture. And that is, I suspect, why God gave it to parents to raise their children up in matters of faith. In this I couldn't agree more with you, Spunky.
But while I take very seriously my responsibility to teach my children the faith, I do not believe the Bible requires me to teach them algebra, gymnastics, softball, physics or every other possible subject, pastime or skill under the sun. Nor, from what I read, do even the most passionate homeschoolers. After all, don't some of you send your children to baseball camp or community college? I believe we can all do this while remaining true to God's commandment to raise our children up in His way.
I do have a scriptural basis for my belief. There are frequent and specific instructions in the Bible to submit to government. For example: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to the governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing right you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor." 1Peter 2:13-17.
I read these verses as an eloquent statement that Christians can submit to the government and yet, with the help of God, maintain their integrity and even stand as examples to others. Similar instructions are found in Titus 3:1-8 and Romans 13:1-10, among others.
I also take as my instruction the words of scripture which charge me to love my neighbor, to be in the world but not of it, and to be merciful. In Matthew 25, Jesus says on Judgment Day He will ask whether we fed the hungry, clothed the naked and visited the prisoners because "As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." While I strongly support homeschooling and am happy to acknowledge that I would be willing to do it if I felt ca
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While I strongly support homeschooling and am happy to acknowledge that I would be willing to do it if I felt called to do so, I am deeply concerned with that segment of the homeschooling community that would like nothing more than to see the public schools vanish. I wonder--where would they have the children go who do not have Godly parents or any parent, whose parents are too sick or ignorant to give them even the most basic education? These verses seem to REQUIRE us to model Christ in prisons, food lines and, yes, even public schools, where so many children through no fault of their own lack the sort of caring, committed and convicted parents that all of you seem to be.
And yes, I, too, have seen such Christian love in public schools and FIRMLY believe it is MORE THAN POSSIBLE for God's love to shine there. How could it not be? We are told in Mark 10:27 that "with men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." To categorically state that God can't be found in ANY public school is not just false--it fails to recognize that Jesus is the light of the world and is present WHEREVER two are gathered together in His name.
Finally, throughout my Bible, I am told that we must not live in fear; that perfect love casts out fear; that he will never fail or forsake us; and that the testing of faith produces steadfastness. In none of these passages is the promise meant only for men or women, but for all God's children. Paul tells us in Ephesians 6:10 to "be strong in the Lord and to put on the whole armor of God."
If I teach these things diligently to my children when we sit in our house, when we talk by the way, when we lie down and when we rise, I believe I am as capable as any homeschooler to raise children for the Lord.
I say this in all humility, because I am grateful to this blog for challenging me to be ever more diligent in fulfilling this responsibility. I agree that not all Christian parents give necessary weight to this commandment (including some homeschooling parents; there are HS blogs for non-Christians, after all.)
Just to be clear, I will again state that I completely support homeschooling--that I believe homeschoolers do a good job of educating their children. But I cannot agree that Christian parents are wrong, as Rev. Baucham (whose teaching I generally respect) seems to indicate, particularly in light of the scriptures I have quoted. Only God knows what is in the hearts of men!
I can only ask in all humility that we as Christians show each other respect and prayerfully accept that God sometimes works in mysterious ways. For while the Bible is certainly open to interpretation, it seems quite clear about the pitfalls of judging the Christian brethren: "Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God." Romans 14:10.
Sorry Spunky.
I really didn't want to derail. It's just kind of been a question that keeps popping up in my mind as I've been reading lately.
I find all the posts about Biblical education very interesting. But in all honesty, it wasn't the Bible that first compelled me to homeschool. I most definately believe God led me to homeschool, but with me it was more the people he sent to me that compelled me.
As you know, the public schools are horrendous in Florida. As I began to contemplate sending my son to them, I suddenly started meeting homeschoolers. My son would make a new friend at gymnastics - and he would turn out to be homeschooled. A co-worker of my husbands homeschooled and my husband was fascinated. Things like that.
Being a baby Christian at the time, I simply didn't know the Bible well enough to know if it spoke to education. I just knew God was nugding me quite distinctly in that direction.
Since it was never actually my plan to homeschool, I tend to have enormous insecurities about it, no matter how much people point out to me how silly that is given how well my son is doing. Reading posts from those who are more mature as homeschoolers and as Christians is such a source of comfort to me. Thank you.
jetty betty, this is Amy. I say this at the beginning because your entire post seemed to be directed to someone else, so perhaps you were getting me confused with other posters.
My kids are young adults--all of them went to 13 years of public school--and I wish you could meet them--it seems you have such a negative picture of what a public school graduate is.
Please point to where I gave a negative view of a public school graduate.
What I reason in scripture is not important--it's what the Holy Spirit guides me to believe.
I see.
We had our children in 3 different school districts also. NONE of them were hostile to God.
Completely unrelated to what I asked you.
We obviously have different political views also.
Do we. Please point to anything I said that would give you an idea of my political views.
I believe God is sovereign and nothing happens that doesn't go through His hands--even in government and thus public schools.
I know I haven't answered all your questions, but it seems we come from such a totally different points of view--it seems we are not communicating.
I'm communicating fine. You're not reading what I'm writing. I simply asked very concrete questions that you keep avoiding. However, I do believe you answered my question above in that you don't reason on the Scriptures, you let the holy spirit guide you.
If that is your answer, then what did you mean by this: "I can read these scriptures and hear very clearly TO send my children to public school. Do you think that is possible?"
Here's just some invalid assumptions I believe many homeschoolers operate from along with a short comment from me:
1. Christians that use public schools don't disciple our children. We do it differently from you perhaps--but this is of utmost importance to us.
I never said nor implied such a thing in my post.
2. Children under 18 are untrained and can't be put into *battle*. The Bible says a believer is a believer--I can't find any age mentioned.
I never mentioned nor implied such a thing.
3. Scripture supports (or at least strongly encourages) homeschooling.
Again, where did I say this?
4. Christians that put their children in public school don't even think about it--they just take the easy way out and eat bon-bons all day and let the government teach their children all kinds of anti-God garbage.
Again, you seem to be fighting a phantom here.
I wish the best for you--can you do the same for all your Christian family that uses public school--or do you choose to believe false assumptions?
You are the one making false assumptions about me. I never once made one about you. I simply asked you how you came to your position on schooling.
This thread has gotten long and it may be tough to follow, so I just wanted to clarify one thing.
[As a public school mother and committed Christian, I would submit that I do NOT wish my children to be taught to think like Christians at school. Does this sound blasphemous? I hope not.]
I agree. The Bible is clear that children should be discipled, taught to think and act like a Christian, at home. My assertion was made in response to the comment by jettybetty that her children were taught more about God in public school than if she had homeschooled them. I have only been homeschooling for two years. When my daughter was in government school, we had a family worship time every evening. Now we do Bible study in the morning before our academic day starts.
I have a question, if they are not taught to think like a Christian at school, what are they taught to think like? I'm not contentious just curious. Is a Christian child expected to separate out his Christian thought outside of school from his Christian thought inside the school building?
"Is a Christian child expected to separate out his Christian thought outside of school from his Christian thought inside the school building?"
Not in my experience, Spunky. How would a Christian separate out his Christian thought? It informs everything we learn, think and do. At school, algebra is just algebra. Just like, for some homeschool families, softball practice is probably just be softball practice. Yet, as Christians we also realize that events/experiences/etc reflect the beliefs and values we bring to them. My child is at school for some of the day, not all of it. It isn't brain-washing or indoctrination, it's math and writing. Then they come home and we talk about what they learned, the viewpoints that may have been put forth, and measure them against our family's values, etc. To my mind, that is how they will learn to discern--not alone in the world, thrown to the wolves, but with a mother and father who are there to help and guide them as they weigh the other viewpoints that are inevitably encountered and will always be encountered whenever they venture outside our door. I believe with all my heart that "the testing of faith produces steadfastness" and that "by doing right you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men."
I would hope that as much as you in the HS community believe and are convicted in what you are doing--and I completely support you and believe in the validity of it--you might also allow that there is room for a Christian family to send their children to public school and still remain Godly--and perhaps even to emerge strong in the knowledge of the Lord.
Great question Spunky! One of the main reasons we believed God wanted us to put our children in public school is so that they could have a variety of experiences while they were with us--so that we could teach and train them the way we believed God would want them to act/react! We definitely did not want them to check their Christianity at the door of the school--consistency is a huge issue. We are called to be Christians 24/7!
Elaine's answer is excellent--so I will quit!
Thanks for asking this question!
Gee...where do I start?
Point 1...and this might be a bit off topic, so forgive me. JB said, "What I reason in scripture is not important--it's what the Holy Spirit guides me to believe." BIG RED FLAG! The Holy Spirit will NOT ever contradict Scripture, so everything one believes MUST be taken to Scripture for validation before acting upon it.
Point 2... Elaine seems to be boiling down the ps experience to only algebra and writing. Somehow all the reading, social studies, etc got left out. And that doesn't begin to cover the multi-cultural agenda that is propagandized each and every day to the children, along with "tolerance" as the highest virtue. Then there are the other children, who are certainly the sweetest, kindest, most thoughtful children on the planet! NOT! The cliques and horrible children are not good for my children, anyway. Dealing with them does not set one up for adulthood, but rather tears them down more and more each and every day.
Sorry folks...but discipleship is a 24/7 proposition, and as they mature in their faith, it should be exercised as part of the family ministering to those in the family's circle of influence. They will learn to give, to have identity as part of a family, to love their neighbors as themselves. No one can possibly tell me with a straight face that the ps and the culture within it will bring out those qualities in a child.
Sorry if this sounds harsh...it's not meant to be; just straight-forward. Go visit my blog for more thoughts on child-rearing and what our end-goals are.
Charley
Elaine, thanks for your reply. However, you didn't answer the question. If a child is not taught during the day to think like a Chrisitian and from a biblical worldview, what are they teaching him to think think like? From what worldview do they teach? All education is based on a worldview. It is either man centered or Christ centered.
Scripture admonishes Colossians 2:8, See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
and we also read in 1 Timothy
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”— which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.
Clearly, we are told to avoid the elmentary principles of the world and that which is falsely called "knowledge" and not be taken captive by them. What are the elementary principles of this world that we are taught to avoid? What is falsely called knowledge that we are told to avoid.
I believe that elementary principles of this world are the man centered truths that are created in order to deny the existence and Truth of Christ and His Word. The idea that a subject is "neutral" is an elementary pirnciple of the world. By saying that a subject is "neutral" denies the existence of the one who created that very information. By only giving our children "facts" without the context of a Creator of those facts we are not teaching Truth but man centered knowledge.
For example, a flower begins from a seed. That is what the schools would teach. But that is not true. A flower began because a Creator spoke a word and created plant life. That is a simple example of the difference. But as a child matures so does the complexity of the question and the answer. In teaching, we must always look to the foundational Biblical Truth and build on that Truth. That is why worldview is pivotal in educating a child in ALL subjects including writing, math, or softball.
We are told in scripture that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Education in the tradition of man is denies the existence of the Lord Jesus Christ, has no foundation in wisdom, and promotes deception.
The scripture tells us that he who is not for Christ, is against Christ. The public schools are not for creating diciples or furthering the cause of Christ.. They are by bibilical definition against Christ teaching the philosophy and traditions of men not God or His Truth. I can accept that you don't want to do all the teaching. But we are also told in Psalm 1 not to sit in the counsel of the ungodly. Clearly, our children who sit for six hours a day, weekly, for 12 years are sitting under the counsel of the ungodly (those who are not for the cause of Christ) and being taught the deceptive traditions of men and false knowledge. How do you reconcile this?
As you said in your comment, we are told to honor the government. As a parent there are options available to us that honor the government but do not allow us to violate these other biblcial truths.
I completely agree with Charley and Spunky on several points, including, the Holy Spirit would never contradict scripture. For some reason many believe that revelation is being added to God's Word every moment and every day (through their relationship with the Holy Spirit). God's Word is complete and closed (Rev 22:18,19.) The Holy Spirit was given so we can understand God's Word, not to add to it. God’s Word is unchanging. The only thing that changes is our understanding of it.
As Spunky points out, believing that algebra is "just algebra" is denying the glory and honor that is due our Lord (Exd 20:3).
As far as the sovereignty of God is concerned, history is full of examples of God working IN SPITE of man messing things up. Pointing to one or 2 or 200 children who emerge from the ps system only proves that God is still active in spite of man's desire to defy God and reject His name. It does NOT prove that the system is an approved method of instruction by God.
For those who defend the ps system can I ask a few questions?
1. How many teachers do you know who open the day with prayer with all of the children dedicating and committing the day to the Lord?
2. How many teachers give glory to the Lord when a child discovers something new that day?
3. When the study of Creation of the world is discussed...oops, my mistake, when evolution is discussed, how many teachers plainly and clearly tell every student from the age of 6 on up to 18 that evolutionary scientists do NOT believe evolution to be THE truth, but rather it is their best APPROXIMATION of the truth? “And oh by the way class, THE truth is that God created the earth and the entire universe in 6 days.”
As to the claim that hs families want the ps system to vanish; I would like to clarify that I for one do NOT want to see it vanish, I would be satisfied that the system went from a PUBLIC school system to a PRIVATE school system. The only part I want to see disappear is the coercion that exists under a system of involuntary contributions by citizens. I have no problem with those who support the system with their actions and words do so also with their pocketbooks.
As a former school board member, I can unequivocally say that Christians should not be involved in any way with public education system as it exists today.
IMHO,
Does that mean you are saying that the Bible is so clear about homeschooling being the only God-honored education option for our children that using public school would be sin?
Not trying to be contentious either, just trying to understand this statement: ""What I reason in scripture is not important--it's what the Holy Spirit guides me to believe." BIG RED FLAG! The Holy Spirit will NOT ever contradict Scripture, so everything one believes MUST be taken to Scripture for validation before acting upon it."
BTW, I agree the Holy Spirit will never lead us somewhere contradictory to scripture. I just would appreciate some clarification on how that was applied.
I was challenged to offer a scriptural basis for my CHRISTIAN decision to send my CHRISTIAN children to public school. I did so. I also offered my support and sincere respect to homeschoolers who choose differently. I asked for the same respect in return. You have every right to make the decisions you feel led to make, as do I. But you have no right to suggest that what I am doing is wrong in the eyes of God.
The fact is, Spunky, you don't know that my children are sitting in the counsel of the unGodly for six hours a day. I will say it again: YOU DON'T KNOW THAT, but you and many of your readers are clearly comfortable with making that very harsh judgment. Please reread my earlier posts, because I answered ALL of your questions there. If you choose for some reason to ignore or discount or disagree with my answers and my scriptural basis for them, that's up to you. But your desire to quote chapter and verse in response to my quoting of chapter and verse seems to miss the point entirely that various interpretations are possible, but that GOD IS GREAT and honors His promises to His people if they give their hearts and souls to Him.
If Peter could tell the early church to be subject to the unsaved Roman emperor, can we perhaps consider that God's hand can, indeed, be found anywhere--even in the offices, institutions and places we believe to be so completely bereft of His presence? How can you even SUGGEST that the saving grace of Jesus Christ, and His people, cannot be found inside public schools?
And, on the flip side, how can you be so sure that EVERY minister, community college instructor, softball coach, neighbor, fellow homeschooler, or other human being with which your children come in close and prolonged contact is truly Godly? You can only TRUST GOD to keep your child safe and to always lead in the right direction with the constant, loving and prayerful help of two convicted parents, as Deuteronomy requires us to be.
I fulfilled your challenge, Spunky, and I dare to stand as a fellow Christian--A FELLOW CHRISTIAN--before this very judgmental forum. I can completely understand that people feel so strongly about their decision to homeschool--WHICH I WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT AND HONOR and which interest led me to this blog in the first place. I can NOT, however, understand why they must show so much contempt for fellow Christians who feel LED BY GOD to make a different choice.
You don't know me; you don't know my children; you don't know my school, you don't know my heart. But you do know my God, my Lord, my Savior. Why isn't that sufficient?
Again to quote Romans: "Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God."
Again with my 2 cents....
I'm a homeschooler for many reasons, but the number one reason is that God has called me to homeschool the children He gave to me. (And judging from the other homeschoolers that post on this site, God has called them to that as well).
I'm here at Spunky's blog b/c she is able to articulate a lot/most of the things I think about homeschooling, the government's role in homeschooling,the Lord's role in homeschooling a whole lot better than I can. I also enjoy her "spunkiness".
My thought about Spunky's blog/this post is this... it's a homeschool blog! No surprise that there's going to be people who defend (gasp) homeschooling fiercely!
Blessings (no exclamation point needed)
Defending the decision to homeschool fiercely is fine. Treating those who are are differently led with respect is also appropriate.
In response to the question about teachers teaching the truth on evolution at any public school...I can tell you from experience that it is extremely rare, even in a "good" school in the "Bible Belt." Until very recently, my husband was an elementary school teacher who told the children the difference between believing in evolution and believing the Bible. Please believe me when I tell you that even if there were 5 of him in every school, it would not be enough to counteract the atheists, evolutionists, and weak Christian teachers that are found in every school. Just before he moved on to bigger and better things, the person in charge of making copies at the school showed him one class's assignments on evolution that completely denied the existence of God...it is in every school. Have your children ever been through the DARE program? When I taught 5th grade in a public school, we had the program, and it was complete indoctrination in values clarification. At no point did the officer teaching the class tell the children emphatically that taking drugs was wrong...the children were supposed to choose what was right and what was wrong. I could go on and on with examples that are everywhere in every school system in every state, but I can tell you that even with a small handfull of Christian teachers (God bless them, it is a mission field) it is not a place where a Biblical worldview can be nourished. It is not just in our area. We had experiences in three different states in vastly different areas of the country, and they are all the same. I am glad that those of you using public schools feel like it is working out for you, but there isn't enough time in my day to re-train my children (besides, as a former teacher, I would be their teacher's worst nightmare, and I just don't want to go there
I just began reading Bruce Shortt's "The Harsh Truth About Public Schools" and would recommend it to everyone...I am in the second chapter, and what he has written has definitely been right on as far as what my family has seen from the trenches.
Many Christian homeschoolers oppose the teaching of evolution in schools. Some of us don't want theology taught in place of science in schools we pay taxes to support. Others of us fear that teaching one particular faith's creation beliefs would create the requirement that other religions be taught in school. After all, they are government schools, supported by tax payers, so the government would need to give "equal time" to all the religions. My opinion is that kids should get science in schools and their theology in home and church or at their private faith based school. Many of the most devout Christians I know are ardent opponents of things like sanctioned or public prayer in public school, scripture study in public school, including Biblical creation.
I don't want government schools taking a role in imparting faith. If it doesn't reflect our family's faith, it is just giving the government more power to undermine my family and my beliefs.
Melisa,
You are so right. I posted a similar version of my own story quite a few posts up. (not as articulately as you)
I'm surprised more Christians don't pull their kids out of public school right after Christmas. (oops, in public school, it's christmas with a small "c"). To make sure there's "balance", public schools bend over backwards to make sure kids know all about Ramadan (they don't shy away from the muslim religion), Kwanzaa (a holiday made up by a communist),and Hannukah (admittedly a true religious holiday), and then there's Christmas. Christmas is only talked about in the context of materialism i.e. what the kids are going to get for Christmas, Santa, snowflakes, etc. One year, my son's 2nd grade teacher had the kids draw an angel, and she told me as an aside that she didn't know how much longer she would be able to even let them color an angel in school. It's sad.
I cannot emphasize enough that Christmas gets short shrift compared to Ramadan and Kwanzaa. And I'm in the Bible Belt! Balance and all that.
Every year at Christmas time, we hear about kids not being able to sing Christmas songs at school, or Nativity scenes being outlawed in municipalities, that is all being done at our schools and then some. My kids were in the public schools as recently as December '05. I know all you pro homeschoolers on this blog don't need me to say this, but you have all made the right decision.
It might surprise some to know that believing in evolution takes more faith than believing in a 6 day creation...but that is a different topic for a different day. I understand the idea of not wanting someone else's religious beliefs taught on the taxpayer dole, but I think it it wrong to take my tax money to teach the religion of secular humanism and evolution. What about my rights to not have my tax dollars used to undermine my faith? These are great topics that need to be hashed out...only through debate can we all learn what we truly believe.
Elaine,
Once again, your words seem clear, gracious and loving. There's not much I can add.
I will say the reason I come here is I do not consider this a homeschool blog. Many days it is a *bash public schools without really knowing what is going on for those with students in public schools* blog. I am passionate that God is working in public school--so I come here to discuss how God is working in public school.
I rejoice on the posts that Spunky speaks of homeschooling and the joys she receives from it! On those days, this is a homeschooling blog!
No one answered my question from my last comment. I hope you all will not think I am too demanding--but I really would like some responses.
"Does that mean you are saying that the Bible is so clear about homeschooling being the only God-honored education option for our children that using public school would be sin?
Not trying to be contentious either, just trying to understand this statement: "What I reason in scripture is not important--it's what the Holy Spirit guides me to believe." BIG RED FLAG! The Holy Spirit will NOT ever contradict Scripture, so everything one believes MUST be taken to Scripture for validation before acting upon it."
Beneath His Mercy,
Okay, JB,I'll take the bait. Well, part of it, the part that pertains to me. My husband and I homeschool our children. Hearing the news every day about school shootings, immorality in schools (teachers having affairs with their students), anti-christian bias, outright hostility to creationism, children not being able to pray before they eat, children being taught that homosexuality is an acceptable, even admirable lifestyle,Yes, I think it is a sin for me not to pull my children out of public school. I would never let my children even drink a little bit of poison, so why would I allow their Christian innocence be poisoned 5 days a week?
Like I said, I had children in public school as recently as December '05, and I'm sorry I did allow that to go on. If something happened to my husband or me, maybe we wouldn't be able to homeschool, but since we are able to now,we do. I thank God every day that he opened MY eyes and is blessing us on our journey.
If you are trying to get me to give you a proof-text for homeschooling, it's not going to happen. There isn't one...just like there isn't one that says you should put your children in the hands of the godless government to be discipled. But there ARE precepts and patterns that lead to the conclusion that hsing is the preferred option for discipling our children. I'm not going to go into them here; as a place to start, Dr. Baucham did a pretty good job. Do you have any Biblical precepts and patterns that can lead to a conclusion that the government school is God's desire for Christian children?
JB said..."Not trying to be contentious either, just trying to understand this statement: ""What I reason in scripture is not important--it's what the Holy Spirit guides me to believe." BIG RED FLAG! The Holy Spirit will NOT ever contradict Scripture, so everything one believes MUST be taken to Scripture for validation before acting upon it."
BTW, I agree the Holy Spirit will never lead us somewhere contradictory to scripture. I just would appreciate some clarification on how that was applied."
The original question did not contend that sending your child to ps is a sin; it only brought up a huge question about how you worded your statement about how you make your decisions. You specifically said that your reasoning from Scripture was not important...only what your were guided to believe by the Holy Spirit. THAT was my question. How can you be guided apart from Scripture? If you are justifying anything...hs or ps...based on feelings or "the guidance of the Holy Spirit" without squaring them with the standards of Scripture, then you are treading on dangerous ground.
If we are to have a standard, it must be the principles, commands, precepts, and patterns of Holy Scripture; not the standards of our culture or of our own feelings. I have a rather long discussion of this very issue as quoted by A.W. Tozer at http://riseupandgetserious.blogs...a-or-
power.html
You also stated that you agreed "...that the Holy Spirit would never lead us somewhere contradictory to scripture." But how would you know that if you don't reason from Scripture and check your decisions and intuitions against what Scripture has to say?
Charley
What I reason in scripture is not important--it's what the Holy Spirit guides me to believe."
jettybetty, you stated that you had read certain scriptures and these pointed you toward public schooling. This led me to believe you had a reasoned argument for it which I was interested in reading. I have no desire to challenge your decision. I was simply curious as to your viewpoint.
When you answered with the above quote, I was willing to accept your answer without further question. However, as you seem to want to expound on it, I am curious as to what you mean by it.
You also said, "Not trying to be contentious either, just trying to understand this statement: "BIG RED FLAG! The Holy Spirit will NOT ever contradict Scripture, so everything one believes MUST be taken to Scripture for validation before acting upon it."
I agree with the above statement which seems self-explanatory. Do you understand the holy spirit differently? Again, just curious, not trying to challenge you.
Elaine, I have not judged you. I asked a question. What worldview are your children's teachers teaching from? That is a legitimate question in any "debate" on education. A civil debate involves examining the statements made by someone who hold a differing position. We are both Christians. We agreed to debate this issue from a biblical framework. You made a statement that you don't want your children's teachers to teach your children to think like a Christian. I merely asked what are they then teaching them to think like? What is the worldview of the public schools? That is not a judgement on you, but a legitimate question every parent should ask before we put our undiscipled children in a situation for any length of time. If that is considered judgemental, I don't know what to say.
s far as not knowing if your children are sitting under the counsel of the ungodly. The schools operate from the premise that there is NO GOD. They denial of Christ means they are working against the cause of Christ. They are ungodly. It is simply a logical flow from premise to conclusion. The premise of the public schools is to glorify man and NOT the Lord Jesus Christ. They are NOT seeking to make disciples in Christ. They don not teach that Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the Life. They do not teach that many is created by God in His image. They teach the a philosphy in the traditions of men not of God. That by definition is an ungodly situation we are told to avoid in the scriptures I quoted earlier.
Do I believe that homeshcooling is the only way to educate a child. No. There are other options available to parents that allow them to obey the Lords command to train up our children without subjecting them to philopsphies in the traditions of men whose goal is not to make discples of Christ but disciples of the state.
Wow! Thanks to 3kidmom, Charley, and Amy K! I consider all your answers quite gracious.
3kidsmom--I would agree with you--if you believe God wants you to teach your children at home--then it would be sin for you to send them to school--I encourage you to do what God leads you to do. I believe you had a bad experience with ps--but can you believe I have not? Since I believe God led us to send our children to ps, would you say it was a sin for us to NOT send our children to ps?
Charley--my bad--big communication problem I think. I thought you were saying RED FLAG--if you don't follow the Holy Spirit as I do and homeschool then you are wrong. I don't think that's what you said? Unless we are not communicating again (eeekkk--I hope not!) I agree with you totally--I can only follow the Holy Spirit if it lines up with Scripture. BTW that original comment was made in response to someone who asked how I *reasoned* sending my children to ps. I don't reason--through the scripture--and the leading of the Holy Spirit--we sent our children to public school. Is that as clear as mud?
Amy K, you have been so patient--and we've had a hard time communicating. I apologize heartily for my part in that. The Holy Spirit uses the same scriptures Mr. Baucham quoted in the original post material to tell us to send our children to public school. There's no reasoning that's just what they say to me. Does that make sense? Do you think that is possible--you can read them and believe God wants you to homeschool and I can read them and believe God wants us to use public schools?
Thanks again for your graciousness!
Blessings to all!
Spunky,
Do you assume homeschoolers have no bad influences? Do homeschoolers get everything all the time correct? Are homeschoolers ever foolish? Do homeschoolers need any grace at all? If they do, then would you need to allow God's grace to cover who He chooses for whatever reasons?
What you don't seem to understand that Elaine has eloquently said is, you assume negative things about ALL public schools and that just can't be proved. In fact, quite the contrary. You keep saying public schools are God-less--but God lives in hearts--any school with one Christian in it would not be God-less. Spreading our faith requires no words either. I believe that some of the loudest sermons come with no words.
You assume I give authority to someone when I send my child to school. Not so. Everyone at school is responsible to me. It is my responsibility to teach my child before they go into the classroom--as to how to handle things in the classroom. Then, they take God with them to class. I want them day by day to become more dependent on God and less on me. God will be with them all of their lives--I will not.
And from this quote:
"Do I believe that homeshcooling is the only way to educate a child. No. There are other options available to parents that allow them to obey the Lords command to train up our children without subjecting them to philopsphies in the traditions of men whose goal is not to make discples of Christ but disciples of the state."--I will take a YES--public school is a sin!
JB
Do you assume homeschoolers have no bad influences? No. We live in a fallen world. Our own siblings can be a bad influence. But we recognize a bad influence and call it what it is. We don't pretend that they are Godly or a neutral influence when they are not and we seek to correct the situaiton and seek biblical restoration.
Do homeschoolers get everything all the time correct? No. But making a mistake doesn't equate with being ungodly. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We go to the only one who can cleanse us from our sin, the Lord Jesus Christ. But we don't deny the existence of God.
Are homeschoolers ever foolish? Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. Homeschool children are no exception. A Christian parent who fears the Lord has taken the first step to walking in wisdom. The public schools refuse to acknowledge the Lordship of Jesus Christ. The Bible calls that a "fool". He who walks with the wise becomes wiser still but the companion of fools suffers harm.
God's grace is there for all believers. God's wrath is upon those who deny His existence. The public schools deny the existence and Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You also said, "you assume negative things about ALL public schools and that just can't be proved."
I make no assumption about an particular school, but the fundamental philophy of the schools is clear. They are teaching in the traditions of man, deny the existence and Lordship of Jesus Christ, they are man centered not Christ centered. They seek to glorify and elevate man not God. Please show me a public school that seeks to glorfiy and exalt the name of Jesus and proclaims HIS Truth as the highest authority and all other philosphies a lie.
Because schools like that no longer exist thanks to court precedent, the schools are declared "neutral" on the things of God. Scripture declares that he is not for the cause of Christ is against the cause of Christ. That is undeniable Truth. False teaching declares that we can be neutral on the things of God. But God's word declarers there is no neutral territory. The lukewarm, are spewed from his mouth. We are either for Christ or we are against Christ. There is not middle ground on that.
I have one final comment, then I'll bow out. I can't speak for all public schools and neither can you. I can, however, speak for the public schools my children attend, which are attended by so many God-fearing and active Christian families. These schools do not in any way DENY the existence of Christ. Our elementary school Christmas program, for example, includes many traditional Christmas carols which include references to the birth of Jesus. On the other hand, neither do our schools TEACH religion or teach from a religious perspective because, as some have already observed, what would that include? Catholic doctrine? Baptist doctrine? Presbyterian doctrine? ALL of these differ in their particulars as well as in their interpretation of scripture.
That said, if the public schools don't DENY Christ or force Christians there to recant or disavow their beliefs or limit the practice of those beliefs (which I have never seen), what reason is there to withdraw? Especially if parents actively fulfill their God-given obligation to teach their children in His ways.
And while we're at it, what is the Biblical basis for Christians to be so uncharitable and intolerant to OTHER CHRISTIANS simply because we differ in how we would have our children taught academically? Some of the comments on this site seem anything but "Christian" to me, AS I UNDERSTAND AND AM LED BY SCRIPTURE. I would not have my children taught that way, either--by professed Christians whose hearts are so hard and who show such little apparent Christian love, acceptance and TRUST in God's plan as it applies to individuals.
But that's okay, because the Lord God requires ME and MY HUSBAND to teach our children according to His laws and commandments--just like you. You might not believe anyone can do that and still allow their children to attend public school. God bless you. But I believe it IS POSSIBLE because I've seen it. You needn't agree with me, but it would be very appropriate if you could find it in your hearts to be respectful and accepting as I have been to you.
One final thought: if we as a nation insist on seeing our government and its institutions--which were founded and remain "under God"--as so unredeemably evil and ugly, perhaps it is because we are failing miserably to fulfill our Christian duty to live Christian lives, to truly love our neighbor, to work for the coming of His kingdom, to be salt and bring light into every dark corner. In my humble opinion.
God's blessings on us all.
Elaine, thank you for your comments. I have been challenged to seek the Word of God as I read your answers. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. I thank you for that. I respect your position even though we obvious disagree. We are both sisters in Christ, I approached this as a debate on a serious issue that confronts all Christian parents, not as a personal issue between you and I.
I have been very willing to hear your thoughts and listen to your position. But disagreement is not the same as intolerant. If I were intolerant, I would have simply disregarded any exhcnage, posted by thoughts and refuse any challenge to my thinking. But I blog to put my thoughts out there to be challenged. I assumed that is why you entered this debate as well. So when I disagree it isn't out of a heart of disrespect or intolerance, but a desire to know and understand Truth. It is with that heart that I allowed this debate to begin again. Not to be right, or to persuade you or anyone else, but to know Truth.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and helping me understand how others appraoch the challenging decision of how to disciple our children in the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
I have something to say here, and I'm going to say right up front that I've never said, nor am I sure I believe, that sending one's children to public schools is sinful.
Having said that, I'd like to point out that the idea that all paths can be equally valid is a postmodern ideal, NOT a Christian ideal. We should not have to agree that public school is an equally valid way to disciple our children in order to be considered gracious or respectful enough.
Y'all keep saying that we simply don't understand about the public schools. But I DID attend public schools myself. I understand completely. But for those who have never homeschooled, perhaps you should accept that maybe you don't understand the difference between talking about what the children learned from a Christian POV after the fact and actually teaching it from a Christian POV to begin with.
JB, you said, "I believe you had a bad experience with ps--but can you believe I have not?"
I absolutely believe that you have not. I also absolutely believe that my standards for a bad experience are quite a bit different than yours since you said you would have been thankful if your children had been taken from the classroom by officers and patted down.
I'm also a tad confused. You keep saying that you support homeschooling. However, last month in the comments of a previous post, you stated that the Scriptures compel you to urge parents to use public school. I was wondering if you've changed your mind. I was also wondering how that is different from people who believe that the Scriptures compel them to urge parents to homeschool.
Kathy Jo,
Good question--I believe parents should seek God on how to educate our children. Some will be led to homeschool and many will be led to use public school. I would compel a parent to public school only if they believe God led them to that decision. Many I have worked with of late, have a mistaken idea that good Christian parents can only homeschool. I disagree with that. Good Christian parents homeschool and public school.
All paths are not valid--IMHO education is a *disputable matter*--so I need to respect where God leads my brothers and sisters even when it's quite different from me. Jesus is THE only way!
I believe you had a bad experience. Really. However, you still can't know what is going on at all public schools everywhere.
We obviously have different perspectives--but will you still let me love you and encourage you as you homeschool your children? I would love to do that. You sound like such a caring mother!
Spunky,
What is all comes down to again, is your opinions and interpretations of scripture, legal cases, whatever verses my opinions and interpretations of the same.
I will repeat I love you! You are a most caring mother--I encourage you to homeschool! I respect your opinions. I do not think you are sinning because of your beliefs.
Can you tell me the same? Or are your opinions so strong that you are right--that I must be wrong?
I think we have different definintions of God-less. Our children are out of school--but we have one that teaches at a middle school not far away from us. We get weekly reports (sometimes more often) of how God is working in that school--students so in love with Jesus they witness to every living thing in school--they meet to pray--parent--teachers coming together to pray and work together for good for all students there. The most powerful thing that happens because of Christians being there IMHO is that those that would have no hope are encouraged, those that have no love are loved, needs are met that would otherwise be missed. You might call that God-less--but I would call that what God's all about.
Beneath His Mercy,
I'm sorry, but this has been one of the most confusing line of comments I've seen yet. I am not saying this to be unkind, but JB... you haven't backed up any of your arguements with scripture or directly answered the question of what scripture the Holy Spirit gave you to make you feel that public school is the best option. Your opinion is valid. I for one really, really want to know what you believe... I don't. Can you just be totally direct and say nothing of yourself but quote the scriptures that are dear to your heart?? I am so trying to understand you!!!
I see others that are backing up their positions with scripture. What I believe isn't worth a hill of beans if my belief doesn't line up with God's word. Neither does Spunky's, Amy's, Julie's or yours. It would be a shame to type out so many word's to people who do not get the point.
I'm sorry if I'm just stupid!
Thanks so much!
The Holy Spirit uses the same scriptures Mr. Baucham quoted in the original post material to tell us to send our children to public school. There's no reasoning that's just what they say to me. Does that make sense?
Not really. I accept that's what you do, but I don't understand it. Perhaps it's the right way to do things for you, but you'll never make a convincing argument to me with that philosophy. From your posts, you appear to make decisions based on feelings. I make decisions based on logic. One may not be better than the other, but neither of us is likely to convince the other.
Do you think that is possible--you can read them and believe God wants you to homeschool and I can read them and believe God wants us to use public schools?
I don't homeschool. I'm a public school graduate with no children. I do believe it is possible for two people to come to different conclusions, witness this thread. However, I was more interested in hearing your reasoned argument from scripture for public schooling. You don't have one, so this particular topic of conversation is probably exhausted between the two of us. However, I very much appreciate your taking the time to show me where you are coming from. I hope we can have further conversations in the future.
Martha,
Sorry for the confusion. Please understand that I am confused when you present scriptures--because they don't mean that me--and I leave going huh?
I will try in just a few minutes give you a part of scripture that calls me to be in the world. I cannot cover it all--I apologize--I just don't have time.
John 17--last prayer of Jesus
:15 "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one."
The only way an unbelieving world will know Jesus is if we are out in it. God has promised to protect us from Satan.
:11 "I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one."
God wants us "in the world" and He has promised to protect us.
:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth"
Sanctify means set apart--Jesus is saying here his followers are protected not by isolation, but by identity. We are called to be holy--and that will distinguish us from the world.
Last one for now from Philipians 1:10:
"so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ."
We believed God wanted our children dependent on Him not us--by the time they were adults. We attempted to release them to God a bit more each day, so they would be accountable to Him and not us. We wanted to teach them discernment in all kinds of situations. It was our desire for them to know how to react in Godly ways to whatever God allowed in their paths.
I am truly out of time tonight--I have more scripture--do you need more?
Blessings to all,
Amy,
You are correct--my comments have been scattered--I had no idea comments for this post would be this involved. I apologize. I don't make decisions make based on feelings--and I appreciate your patience since it seemed that way to you. I would love further conversations--and hopefully next time, I will do a more adequate job of explaining my position from a scriptural POV.
Blessings!
Thank you, JB. I appreciate your honesty and the scripture you shared. I don't happen to agree with your interpretation, but that's ok. I am glad your children are growing in the Lord and that is what is most important... we have a close relationship with our creator through faith in His Son. May God bless you as you raise your children to love our precious Lord!
JB...I am confused, though, with why you are spending so much time on this thread trying to justify your viewpoint. You stated that your children are already grown and gone. It's a "done deal" for you. Why do you feel the need to be affirmed by the homeschooling folks who read this blog?
And as far as the Scripture you used, it does justify not isolating one's self as a monk, but rather engaging the world with the Gospel. I'm sorry...we could do that as a family, but children alone as a rule cannot. They lack the maturity and the authority. When they are put in a school, they are put in a place where they are in a position of submission to the authority of another. From that authority come ideas that are distinctly against Jesus. There is no way a child can stand up to that. It's hard enough to expect a college-level student to stand up to a professor; it certainly won't happen on any regular basis in an elementary or secondary classroom.
Charley
Martha,
Your comment humbles me--we do agree on what's truly important--raising children to love the Lord!
Charley,
I did not plan to spend that much time justifying anything here--it rather spiraled out of control--so we are both surprised.
I've seen students in early elementary school stand up for their beliefs. I believe they can be taught to stand up for what they believe at a very early age. I suppose we will have to disagree on that--but I truly do respect what you believe!
I do not wish to be affirmed by homeschooling folk--even though you are an impressive bunch. For some reason God just gives me this passion for spreading the news of how He is working in public school. I honestly wish I didn't have it--but I believe it's in part because there is so much mis-understanding between homeschoolers and public schoolers--I keep believing that we all have some work to do--so that we can come together and honor God as one!
I believe educting my children in my home and having the choice of which programs to enroll them in is far better than any public school. My friend gets very fed up with the local school, taking her kids on all kinds of fieldtrips that she does anyway and does not concentrate on basic skills. A few years ago I did not think I would homeschool but now I can not imagine not doing it.
I do however think their are cases when it is not the best for the child or family. One of the nicest, most sincere Christian woman that I know homeschools 3 of her children and has sent the other one to public school for the past 2 years. The other thing getting public schools to teach Christ is not impossible. If it can happen in Canada why not in the States.
http://districtsite.epsb.ca/root...m?
Program_ID=25
They also provide the type of homeschooling you don't like Spunky but they do give choice all over the board for people to choose how they want to educate or have their children educated. Well all school age kids in Alberta have to be registered and under a board. People may dislike public school for many different reasons but they can be changed IF parents ask/demand it. One of my biggest beefs when my daughter was in public school Kindergarten was that parents would complain but not show up at parent council meetings and DO something about it.
Just my 5c.
JB,
I wonder from the scriptures you quote - do you believe that homeschoolers are isolated from world? I thought you'd stated differently in another thread.
Lara,
Thanks for asking--BTW--you sound like sweet and wonderful Christian momma!
I suppose isolation is in degrees--would you think most homeschoolers are more isolated than public schoolers?
And for the John 17 scripture--however God leads us to implement--which could be different for you than me (you state FL schools are terrible--and I trust you on that since I don't live there)--I don't believe we are to isolate ourselves from the world. I believe we are to be out in it so God can use us to reach out to others. I have a personal faith in Jesus--but it is in no way to be private. I just love that He's promised to protect us, too!
I pray I can only encourage you as you seek to follow God in homeschooling. I hope you can understand my purpose here is never to discourage those that already have been led in that direction. I am also against discouraging those that have been led to use public schools.
Does that make any sense to you??
It's all because of His grace!
JB you've spent over a year and a half at my blog making similar comments. These discussions and our disagreement are nothing new. Just read this post, from April of 2005 and you'll see we differed then.
http://spunkyhomeschool.blogspot...n-
illinois.html
Shortly thereafter, you have sent me an email stating,
"I have told you I am a light/salt person. I am a go ye into all the world. For me homeschooling is WRONG. That is my opinion. There are many, many Christians that will share that view. I beg you, please use your blog to encourage and inform what you know about it and quit pounding Christians that make another choice into the ground."
I wasn't offended then nor am I today by anthing you've said.
This current thread was a debate to discuss the scriptural basis of education. You have made your case, I have made mine. I'll let other readers determine what it all means for them. That is exactly what a debate is to be used for. A debate like this is very encouraging. We are told in scripture as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another. And to study and rightly divide the word of Truth. As I present my thoughts, and others present theirs we are all learning and hopefully seeking His Truth, above our own "rightness."
Our love for one another was never in question. As I shared at the top of this comment thread, let the assumption of all of us be that no one is attacking another, that all points of view are resepected.
I have been reading all these comments with curiosity and I just wanted to say to all that it's been refreshing to see the kind and understanding manner with which everyone has been communicating. It's really hard to hold to your convictions (especially about disputable matters) and communicate with other believers who hold opposite views with love, grace and respect. It's so important that the world sees us love one another, not chew each other up. I have a strong conviction to homeschool, but I believe it's more important to love my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ than to convince them to agree with me. JB - I really appreciate your willingness to stay in this conversation and your kind tone throughout. I truly believe you and your husband have been sincere in your desire to raise godly children and praise God for your success. It sounds like you're a great mom.
Blessings to all.
Thanks for your kindness Spunky!
I said homeschooling for ME was wrong. I have never said it was wrong for you. That's where God led us. That's where God leads thousands of Christians to educate their children.
You continue to blog about some things that you do not *know* about--when you making sweeping statements including ALL public schools--ALL parents that use public schools. I continue to beg you to use your blog for things you know about (and you know so much!) and quit pounding Christians that make a choice different from you. They make different choices--not wrong ones.
I do appreciate the discussion. I do think our discussions are all about love--God's love--and I love you Spunky!
Many Blessings!
I appreciate the comments JB. But I'm a bit baffled by how you can claim I write about things I don't "know" about. You have little to no knowledge about me except for what is written on my blog. This is but a sliver of who I am and what I may know. To say I write about things that I don't know about is presumptuous. For the sake of discussions here in the comments I assume that people write about what they know about. I can't know everyone's background, so I assume that if they choose to write it is because they feel that "know" something worth telling. That's an assumption that keeps me looking at what is said rather than read anything into their statements that may not be there.
As a citizen of this great republic I feel fully comfortable in using my blog to examine the things that the government is doing. That is something we should all be doing. We are a government of the people. The pubic schools as all parts of government are not above scrutiny by the electorate. I hope that all citizens keep abreast of what is going on within the realm of federal, state, and local government and seek to making their voices known in all the ways that God allows them to do so.
Spunky,
I am speaking your applying what is happening in one isolated public school and applying or assuming that happens in all public schools. There is no way you can *know* what happens in every individual school. Some very good things are happening in public schools. That is my point.
While there are bad things happening in some homeschools--it would be wrong of me to apply that to all homeschools. I don't know what is happening in all homeschools.
While I appreciate and encourage you to blog about government--I would also encourage you, as a Christian, to build Christians up and not needlessly discourage any on their Christian walk. I believe you can do both.
Blessings on your walk Spunky!
jettybetty,
You commented: Some very good things are happening in public schools. That is my point.
You have also made other comments that would lead me to believe that the public school environment is an intended environment by God and He is actively equiping children with the ability to discern right from wrong through various experiences in the world.
Could you provide greater detail on the "good things" that occur in public schools in relation to training our children in the ways of the Lord?
Also, could you clarify for me your understanding of how experimentation in the world for our children is biblical and an intended method of training our children?
In conjunction with these 2 questions, maybe you could give us practical applications and examples of the principles you believe from God's word (salt/light, in the world, training in the ways of the Lord, etc) that are directly and specifically used in public education to fulfill these requirements by God.
I am not being rhetorical or confrontational with these questions. You bring a perspective to this discussion that I have not heard before. Most...strike that, EVERY Christian parent that I have met who uses the public education system recognizes the evils of the system but they strongly believe they can overcome it, that their presence in the system is what keeps it from failing (which they view as a bad thing), and that they have no other choice. Conversely, you seem to voice more of an opinion that there is not that much evil intent (if any) within the system and it is a possibly a preferred method of instruction by God.
Could you help us out with these questions and understandings?
Brian,
Thanks for your questions. I appreciate the opportunity to answer them.
I do not believe public school is the intended educational environment for our children--I also do not believe homeschooling is. I don't think God gives us an *intended* educational choice. If He did, most Christians parents I know would use it.
I do not believe public schools are without evil--any more than I believe homeschools are without evil. We live in a fallen world. There is no perfect place. Therefore, I need to use what God leads me to use. I believe we do have a choice.
As far as specific good things, I will (because of time concerns) re-use something I commented above.
"I think we have different definintions of God-less. Our children are out of school--but we have one that teaches at a middle school not far away from us. We get weekly reports (sometimes more often) of how God is working in that school--students so in love with Jesus they witness to every living thing in school--they meet to pray--parent--teachers coming together to pray and work together for good for all students there. The most powerful thing that happens because of Christians being there IMHO is that those that would have no hope are encouraged, those that have no love are loved, needs are met that would otherwise be missed. You might call that God-less--but I would call that what God's all about."
Is that something like you wanted there?
Also, as far as salt and light--I explained how I interpret John 17 in this light above--did you read that?
Did I miss any of your questions?
Thanks again for listening!
God most certainly does give us extemely clear instruction on who He intends should be teaching children. Here it is...
Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates
I put in the extra verses so you can see this is not taken out of context. We are not only told who should be doing the teaching, but what we should be teaching. It is a very clear mandate as parents that we are to teach our kids... He even put them in our homes to make it easy for us.
This is not a way out there arguement. I can see that you made a different choice.. and God can bring good from all circumstances... but the fact that you cannot see what the Bible so clearly lays out is disturbing to me.
You said..
I don't think God gives us an *intended* educational choice. If He did, most Christians parents I know would use it.
The first sentence I have dealt with. As far as the 2nd... you are bang on correct!!! 1000 points for you! Some of us understand God's intended educational choice and we are doing our very best against all odds to educate our children where God placed them, in our homes. We are fulfilling the mandate of Deut 6.
It is not easy. It is expensive. Our houses do not always meet the standards of cleanliness we have in our minds.. but we are obeying our Lord. We can never change the mistakes of the past but we can learn from them. Its ok to recognize you may have missed out on a tremendous blessing, but its time to put this to rest now. Its time to stop promoting what you KNOW it a failed system of "education". You have been reading this blog and perhaps even reading all the links to news reports from all over the USA. You must by this time realize that you are clinging to a futile arguement... and I am so sorry. None of this is to make you feel bad. I hate to do that. But please see the truth!!! Homeschooling is obedience to the Lord... end of story.
Its waaaay to much work to take on just to say we do it!!! Yet, the burden is light because it is the burden that God has given us.
I pray that your eyes will be opened to truth and you can finally rest from this debate.
In love.. and I mean it as I hate to be this confrontational...
It is illogical in the extreme to say that Spunky writes about things she doesn't know about just because you disagree with her conclusions. She often writes about current events, primarily current events concerning education, and she always provides a link to her source(s). You keep arguing that these things are not happening in EVERY public school. But they are definitely happening.
I can accept that you believe what you're saying about these Utopia-like public schools. But that doesn't mean I actually believe that they exist. I hope you can appreciate the distinction. And I certainly do not believe they exist in such numbers that they make a valid argument for sending children into public schools.
I also absolutely disagree that it's somehow tearing down Christians who public school when other Christians make a case against public schooling. They are free to study the Scriptures that Spunky and others have quoted and either agree or disagree. I have occasionally disagreed with Spunky, but I've never been bothered by that. I can consider what she has to say, study the issue myself, and form my own conclusion. Thankfully, there is no place in the Bible that tells me I must either agree with Spunky or convince her that she's wrong in order to be a good Christian. This goes back to something I've already said, that we should NOT have to agree that homeschooling and public schooling are equally valid options for Christian education in order to avoid being accused of being ungracious, being disrepectful, and tearing down other Christians.
No one has managed to refute, to my satisfaction at least, the Scriptural arguments presented against public schooling. In short, you are asking people to give up their convictions because you disagree with them.
Speaking the truth in love is part of what I consider building up one another in Christ. Shying away speaking Truth can actually be one of the most unloving things we can do as a Christian.
I am thankfully for those who scripturally have shown me errors in my thinking or behavior based on Scriptural Truth. After a person presents a compelling case for why they do or don't do something, I always go back to the scripture to look at what they have said and study it for myself. If they make a compelling case based on sound reasoning, I hope that I am humble enough to admit that I have erred and change my behavior accordingly. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. I am thankfully to those who share hard truths with me. It is often painful to hear in the moment, but in the long run I have learned I am better off.
I know I promised to bow out, but instead, I keep coming back to see what is going on with this conversation. In regards to using John 17 as a justification for sending our kids to public school, I believe the context of this section of scripture is an inadequate defense for sending children to the public schools.
First, in order to fully understand this text, we have to look at the chapter as a whole. Jesus is ready to die and he is praying for his followers. I think, given the whole of this chapter, we err in applying this chapter to all Christians for all times. The context of this is that Jesus is praying prior to his death. In the prayer He speaks about His earthly ministry and about what He has done with a specific group of individuals. For example, in v. 6 “I have manifested your name…” To manifest means to make the hidden or unknown visible. This is reminiscent of the though expressed in John 14:9. In v. 8, we are told that Jesus gave words (rema) to his disciples. The word used here for ‘words’ means specifically the “spoken word” and is used to communicate the idea that Jesus gave the disciples new revelation from the Spirit of God. Finally, in v. 14 Jesus states He gave his disciples words again. This is one of those times that the original meaning of Scripture is lost in translation. Jesus did not forget that he had already asserted that this, nor is Jesus repeating himself for clarity. The original word used here is logos and refers to the written word. Jesus studied scriptures with his disciples. Given these specific acts that were done with a specific group of people, I don’t think we can extrapolate this scripture and apply it to all Christians.
Additionally, a close look at v. 12 in this section of Scripture should surely show us that Jesus did not intend to communicate that we should send our undiscipled unprotected children into the world. In that verse, Jesus states that he carefully attended to his disciples and that He guarded them. The concept being communicated by the Greek word that is translated guarded is that we should have our eye upon; lest he (or she) suffer violence, be despoiled; to protect one from a person or thing, to keep from being snatched away, preserve safe and unimpaired. Jesus points out that, “not one of them has perished but…” Given that Jesus points to Judas, it seems that Jesus is pleading that God sovereignly protect his disciples so that they remain in the faith.
Not until v. 18, does Jesus clearly communicate that He sent his disciples into the world. The world throughout scripture can be used to mean the earth, all of humanity or a world system that is deceived, defiled and dangerous. We tend to think that the dangerous world as obviously and openly dangerous. But, this is not the case. When Jesus sent out His disciples, he did not send them into pagan Rome. The gospel was given to the Jews first. The people the disciples were to go out and share the gospel with recognized God but were
I promised I'd bow out, but the posts here just seem to go round and round in circles. I will allow myself one final comment:
No one is asking anyone to change their deeply held opinions, only to ACCEPT that there are other Godly choices, scriptural support for those choices and, most importantly, clear-cut scriptural directives to Christians to raise each other up rather than tearing each other down.
Here is what's wrong with generalizing unfairly:
“On the other hand, there are increasing reports of homeschool child abuse in the media. It all started in October 2003 when CBS news aired a two-part series about the “dark side” of homeschooling. The Oct. 13 episode discussed a case in AZ in which an abused 14-year-old homeschooler killed himself and his two siblings while the Oct. 14 show discussed homeschool child abuse cases and murders in TX, KS, and NC. Then three local Akron area incidents involving child abuse of homeschooled children (including starving homeschooled children found wandering in Akron after they escaped from a closet where they were made to eat from a cat litter box) led two writers for the Akron Beacon Journal to conduct a systematic search of newspaper articles to see if such incidents were isolated. Since child abuse cases are seldom reported in the media, they instead examined murders and found that a relatively high proportion of homeschooled children had been murdered by their parents in recent years. In November 2004, they published their findings.”
-- Pennsylvania Homeschoolers ® newsletter
It would be extremely wrong-headed, unfair and mean-spirited of me to take this information and apply it to every homeschooler with a single broad brush. And even worse to then tell you that I don't believe your protestations that this isn't what your homeschool is like, nor the homeschool of anyone you know.
Please, fellow Christians: While you are certainly able, based upon Holy scripture, to make an excellent argument for homeschooling, it is clear that terrible, sinful things can happen in that venue as well as any other. It has been interesting to me to see that, with the exception of a single post by Spunky, none have commented on the repeated scriptural command to "be subject for the Lord's sake to EVERY human institution..."
Understand: I am not attempting to change anyone's conviction about homeschooling, which I, too, think is a most valid choice--only to encourage you to ACCEPT that there is scriptural basis for sending children to public school AS LONG AS parents ALSO fulfill the command in Deuteronomy to "love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might" and to teach those words diligently to our children. Indeed, the verse describes not only sitting at home, but also walking by the way. This says to me that children are to be allowed outside the home at some point. In fact, I get a very clear picture when I read this of taking my children to schoo
The gospel was given to the Jews first. The people the disciples were to go out and share the gospel with recognized God but were wrong on the nature of God, wrong on the intent of the law and wrong about how to gain salvation.
One may argue, but surely we should follow Jesus’ example and do for our children what Jesus, in His earthly ministry, did for His disciples. And… I would agree that we must lay the groundwork of personal fellowship with our children, speak into their life, study the scripture and provide protection for our kids. These things serve as a foundation for sending them out into the world to preach the word and win others to Christ.
As I evaluated these truths from scripture and what was going on in our family and after much prayer, I have already written that there were times that I have enrolled our daughter in public school. But, I was aware that as I was sending my daughter to public school, I was sending her into the world. This does not mean that I think that the public schools are openly evil. I can read about teachers having sex with students, school shootings, drugs and gang violence and know that just because these things happen, they aren’t necessarily normative in every public school. But, I am also aware that the schools are teaching moral relativism over absolute truth. In trying to respect all beliefs, they send the message that all beliefs are equally valid. In teaching science in the absence of mentioning God, they are denying the truth of a Creator-creation distinction. By teaching history without mentioning God, they are falsifying history. Our kids have trouble seeing God’s hand working in the flow of history.
So, when a parent decides to enroll their child in public school, the mandates of this section of scripture become harder. I know that there are people that have entered into this conversation that believe that they don’t just become hard: they become impossible. Obviously, I do not share their views (that is okay, I always allow other people the right to be wrong). The decision to enroll my child in public school was accompanied by plans on how I was going to disciple her and how I was going to evaluate her to see if she was “in the faith.” I also had clear outcomes that I was looking for that would cause me to bring her home to school.
I also want to make it clear that my writing this does not mean that I am assuming that jettybetty and elaine did not manifest God, speak into their child’s life, teach their children scripture or protect and guard their children. I have already stated that I think that you can do both. I will continue to assert that it is easier to do these things when the child is home all day with you. I am writing this because I believe that there are far more people reading this blog that are praying through their decision about educating their children and wanted to clearly state, what I believe is biblically true about John 17. Blessings ~
...with a prayer on my lips. Okay. I have said all that I intend to say on the subject. Will it touch the hearts of anyone reading it? I leave that to God. And I thank Him profoundly for the infinite variety of His creation!
jettybetty,
I guess we will just have to disagree; God does clearly have an intended method of instruction as he states in Deut 6:7; Psa 1:1-2; Pro 13:20; Pro 22:6; Col 2:8; James 1:5; 1 Cor 2:5; 1 Cor 2:14; 1 Cor 3:19.
Our disagreement comes in that you believe public school fulfills these requirements, whereas, I do not believe public school fulfills them.
I was also looking for more specific applications rather than just general comments of some anecdotal things that happen (prayer, loving and caring for one another etc). From the sounds of it, your son/daughter who is currently a teacher is praying in school (in defiance of the law) and demonstrating Christian love whenever possible. These expressions are the outpouring of the Christian life, but what I am looking for is the intentional instruction that occurs within public schools that complies with and fulfills the scriptures I provided above.
I will have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of John 17. Your understanding of "in the world" seems to imply that this means we can only be "in the world" IF we are in public school and not at home. If you look at v.11 & 12 you will see that Jesus talks about how he himself was "in the world." John 17 is talking about our physical place in the world and Jesus has left the physical world. As long as we physically live we are "in the world", whether we attend public school or are home educated. The verses I use above clearly indicate that as we are "physically in the world" we are to be very careful of where we get our wisdom and instruction.
Again, I disagree with the argument that public school is somehow "in the world" and at home is not.
Going back to the expressions of love and compassion within public schools by Christians may be a "good thing"; however, non-Christians express the same things and often a whole lot better than Christians do.
Jesus tells us to love God first (Mat 22:37). How do we do this? According to Deut 6:6-9, by FIRST placing these words on our hearts and impressing them on our children. Expressions of compassion and love for others is the second commandment AFTER we love God. Why is it necessary to love God first? Because love and compassion WITHOUT God is the same thing non-Christians can do...and they can very often do it very well. But what is different? The saving grace of Jesus Christ. Many "mature" Christians I know do not understand the difference between Christ's compassion and human compassion...let alone 6, 10, 12 and 18 year olds. They have no idea what the difference is nor do I believe they are learning it at public school.
I wish you had more time to express your convictions because it is a perspective I have not heard or agree with and I want to understand it better.
Elaine,
You said: none have commented on the repeated scriptural command to "be subject for the Lord's sake to EVERY human institution..."
If you are using 1 Peter 2:13-17 to imply that we are some how REQUIRED by the state to send our children to public school, I pray that day never comes. The fact that you would quote this scripture to justify sending children to public school scares me. As Christians we should be standing for the hearts our children to be turned toward God and home and not to a state mandated program.
Other countries are trying to eliminate homeschooling through the power of the state, but thankfully in the US will still have the right (by the government) and the responsibility (by God's Word) to educate our children in the manner we see fit. When Christians begin to believe that they are somehow complying with state laws to send their kids to public school, will be a scary day. This mentality is not biblical nor is it historical. Responsibility and requirement for education MUST remain with the parents.
It scares you? What scares me is good Christians who seem to view the government of this country--founded UNDER GOD--as something they can wash their hands of in spite of scriptural commands to the contrary. What does "submit" mean to you? Does it mean one thing in regards to marriage and another thing in regards to our responsibility as citizens?
I agree that our government is as fallen as any human institution, but that doesn't absolve us from doing our Christian duty to make it better, to work at it in the same way we work at our marriages to make them more Godly. We the people ARE the government, after all. We have only ourselves to blame if it isn't the government we believe it should be.
I am pleased for you that you are so certain that your interpretation of the Bible is the only valid one. I ask God's blessings for all of us as we continue to discern His will.
PS to Brian: I NEVER said Christians should be REQUIRED to enroll their children in public school. Have you read my posts? I REPEATEDLY in each and every one of them support homeschooling for those who choose it. Why do you choose to misinterpret my words and my heart?
It is true that this land was originally settled by Christians.
However, while there were Christians involved in the formation of the Constitution, there were also some involved who were quite adamantly opposed to our country being a Christian nation.
Thomas Jefferson once said, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." (1787)
This is why you see very little mention of religion in the Constitution.
In addition, in regards to the Pledge of Allegiance, the words "under God" were not a part of the pledge until 1954.
I wanted to clarify what I mean by my home not being “in the world.” I believe that my home is set apart for the holy purpose of raising Godly children. In John 17:14, Jesus made the assertion that his disciples were not of the world. I strive to ensure that even though my home is physically in the world, the ideas and values that are being taught and acted out here are in-line with scriptural truth. Perhaps a better way to communicate my thought is to say that my home is not “of the world.”
Jesus “sent” his disciples into the world (v. 1
. I don’t believe this means that he sent his disciples into the physical world because they were already in the physical earth. Instead, it seems to imply that He sent them out from under his teaching and protection (described in the first half of the chapter) and into a world that didn’t believe in order to spread the gospel. I get my understanding of the use of the word ‘world’ to describe the world system that is deceived, defiled and dangerous from my reading of the following scripture: 1 John 2:15-17, 1 John 3:13 and Romans 12:2. I don’t believe in any of these verses, ‘world’ can be understood to mean the physical earth.
I have always had trouble stating the bottom line up front, so I want to put it down here. I believe that in the public school, a child will be exposed to ideas and thoughts that do not line up with Biblical truth. In most cases, the child is not emotional or spiritually prepared to defend their faith in this environment. The first half of John 17 describes what Jesus did to prepare His disciples. However, I am careful not to slam the door on a Christian parent’s right to decide to use the public school system. I have been in a position where I had to work. I had to work to pay for basic food and shelter, not because I wanted a bigger house, fancier car or more toys. I have also been in a position to opt for public school because my daughter needed services related to fetal alcohol syndrome that were not covered by my insurance. She was able to get these services through the schools special education department. I don’t know anyone else’s situation and I do believe that parents can sometimes genuinely feel that utilizing the public school is the right thing to do for their family. I just don’t think the argument for sending a child to public school should be to allow that child to be salt and light. I also don’t believe that the decision to use a public school should be made lightly and must be accompanied by intense, planned and, most importantly, carried out discipling at home.
Elaine,
Maybe I misunderstood. You stated: I do have a scriptural basis for my belief. There are frequent and specific instructions in the Bible to submit to government. For example: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to the governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing right you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor." 1Peter 2:13-17.
I read these verses as an eloquent statement that Christians can submit to the government and yet, with the help of God, maintain their integrity and even stand as examples to others.
I thought you were talking about your belief to send your kids to public school. I thought you were using 1 Peter as your scriptural basis for doing so. Again, maybe I misunderstood. Why are you bringing up the topic of "submitting to the government"? What does it have to do with chosing education methods?
You also stated: Christians who seem to view the government of this country--founded UNDER GOD--as something they can wash their hands of .
What exactly does this mean? What are examples that you have encountered of "Christians washing their hands" of the government? Are you implying that Christians who homeschool are somehow doing this?
I apologize if I misinterpreted your words. I had no intent of doing so. I guess I just don't understand your comments.
The reference above is verse 18. Apparently an eight) is a cool smily with sunglasses.
Elaine, thanks for bringing up those cases. I have talked about similar situations on my blog involving homeschoolers and abuse. The idea that there are homeschoolers who may abuse their children isn't in question. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Homeschoolers are part of that ALL. So seeing these cases should cause all of us to understand that there are consequences for wrong actions. Making a generalization about ALL homeschoolers based on this would be inaccurate.
However, what I talk about is using examples from the public school to make a case for the worldview of the public schools. As the schools are currently, the worldview is not FOR Christ. The school's purpose in education is NOT for making disciples in Christ. There isn't one government school whose mission is to promote the teaching of Christ as the Truth. And in the words of Christ, if you are not FOR Christ you are against Christ. Yes, they may celebrate Christmas at a given school or even quote scripture in a textbook. But that doesn't make for a Biblical worldview. Even Satan knew and quoted Scripture. (No I'm not equating the PS with Satan.) But does that promote Christ as THE TRUTH to the exclusion of all others? No. They can't. In a secular school the worldview is that all religions are equally true. To a Christian that is a lie. This is exactly the type of elemtary principle we are taught to avoid. Especially with our young children. Better to hang a millstone around one's neck than cause one of these little one's to stumble.
The schools declare that they are "neutral" on the religion. They have to be. As you rightly pointed out, which religion would they teach? Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant. That's the dilemma with universal government funded education of the masses. If they mention them at all, they are forced to teach them all as true. But as Christians we believe in ONE true God. His name is Jesus Christ.
Julie,
I see what you mean and maybe I spoke to quickly with regards to: I get my understanding of the use of the word ‘world’ to describe the world system that is deceived, defiled and dangerous from my reading of the following scripture: 1 John 2:15-17, 1 John 3:13 and Romans 12:2. I don’t believe in any of these verses, ‘world’ can be understood to mean the physical earth.
But, when Jesus says that he is "no more in the world" (v.11), could Jesus have stayed on earth physically and still no longer been "in the world"? Can we as Christians live on earth and not be "in the world"? Is it even possible?
I guess I have trouble sometimes with the understanding that we have to go to some foreign country, or go to the inner city, or go to where the unbelievers are in order to be "in the world". Conversely to this, some people believe that homeschooling is an act of "removing" our children from the world.
I believe we can agree that "in the world" means BOTH physically and culturally (or systemically as you describe). I do not believe that we (or even Jesus) could exist on earth physically and somehow NOT be "in the world". The physical earth is fallen as is also the minds, philosophies, systems and structures of man. Even monks have not escaped the world. Home educators try to limit the influence of the world, but we still are sinners, we still have to go to the store, we still have friends, we still visit senior centers, we still participate in politics, and on and on.
I believe we agree that "removing our children from the world" should NOT be the sole reason for educating our children at home. And conversely we agree that sending our children to be salt and light "in the world" is not a good reason to send our kids to public school.
As far as working to make government better. I'm all for it. I actively meet with legislators and their aides on a variety of issues. But that doesn't mean I must submit my children to their false worldview in order to make changes.
Christians homeschoolers have not abandoned the government by choosing not to place our children there. Not at all. Have you abandoned you church by not placing your children in Sunday school? Not at all. You work in the best interest of your children. That's what being a good parent is all about. The idea that you have "abandoned" anything is ridiculous. You take your role as a parent seriously. You have wisely chosen in the best interest of your child to keep them with you on Sunday, after seeing that what was presented in the class wasn't for you. If asked, hopefully you would present your reaons for withdrawing your children based in sound biblical reasoning.
This is exactly what many Christian parents are doing with the education of their children Monday through Friday. And when asked I present the best case using sound biblical reasoning to make my case. Do I believe I'm right. Of course I do. Do you believe your right? Of course you do. That's why you have made your choice and I have made mine. Neither of us would make a choice that we would admit was based on flawed reasoning. But I blog to challenge my reasoning. If there is an error in any of my use of Scriptures please show me.
I am a writer and usually don't have this much trouble bringing clarity to the written word.
Brian: Yes, I do use 1Peter as the scriptural basis for sending my children to PS. I do not believe it REQUIRES me to do so. Nor do I believe Deuteronomy and the other verses REQUIRE me to homeschool, "only" to raise up my children in God's righteousness--a huge responsibility that I take very, very seriously. You don't have to agree with ANYTHING I've written, Brian. But I will ask you for acceptance and respect, which my Bible also requires me to accord to you as a good Christian (which I have every reason to believe you are).
Spunky: I do not dispute what you have written, I just don't see it as an insurmountable stumbling block to the fulfillment of God's work and will for my family. What more can I say than what I have already said--at great and repetitive length?
I am resolved not be contentious about this. How can we ever hope to convince the Godless world of His righteousness if we can't even ACCEPT and RESPECT the honest differences of fellow Christians on matters that are open to interpretation?
I am lead by my faith in an almighty and all-powerful God whose son, Jesus Christ, ate with sinners and tax collectors and disdained Pharisees. I believe all things are possible with God and strive to teach my children of that truth.
I will have no more to say on this subject, but will let my earlier words speak for me and for what is in my heart.
I pray for God's blessings on us all.
Sorry--the previous comment wasn't meant to be anonymous. Pardon me.
Brian,
I believe we are arguing semantics rather than doctrine. I hope you don’t find my questions annoying. It is certainly not my intent. I have had fun with this discussion and wish I could have you all over to my home for Bible study. I enjoy fleshing out spiritual truths with other Christians.
John 17:18 “As you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.”
The word send here is, interesting, apostello (from apo meaning separate and stellos meaning to set place, set in order or arrange.) and according to Strong’s Concordance means to order to depart. So I read this to mean that Jesus ordered his apostles, those he had separated out, to depart into the world. How do you interpret “into the world” in this verse? Because I can’t think of anyway to interpret it accept that they were sent out into a different culture: A culture that did not accept Christ’s deity or His teachings. Luke 9 and 10 paints this picture further. These men were prepared, empowered and, at least in Luke 10 paired and sent to preach the gospel.
Again, my argument is against using this portion of scripture to support sending children into a public school because I do not feel that the act of sending a child to a public school fits the context or conditions of what is described in this text. The apostles were adults that had sat under Jesus' teaching daily for portion of His three year ministry. Children are not prepared as described in the first half of John 17. And... the goal while they are in the school is to learn from the culture and not to teach the gospel.
But, I will grant you; I am still a fallen human. While I strive to follow the teachings of Christ, sometimes when I examine my beliefs, attitudes and actions (and sometime when my daughter points them out), I find my fallen self shamefully strutting her stuff. My home by no means perfectly reflects heaven. So, yes… even in my home my daughter is “in the world.”
Blessings ~
Thank you for the discussion Elaine.
I respect you as a fellow sister in Christ. My intention was never to be contentious as I said in the beginning and a little later in the comments. I thank you for being "iron" to me and challenging me to think about this issue from your perspective. Please don't assume that our disagreement means I disrespect you or your position. Neither would be true.
You said that you do not dispute anything I have written, just that it isn't insurmountable to you. Just so I don't make a wrong assumption about what you meant, my premise all along has been that we are told to avoid "false knowledge" and elementary principles of the world which are against Christ. I'm just curious, do I take that to mean that the schools do teach from a worldview that is against the the teachings of Christ but you don't see that as a stumbling block to your children's discipleship? I don't ask this to debate it with you just to make sure I understand what you are saying when you say "I do not dispute what you have written, I just don't see it as an insurmountable stumbling block to the fulfillment of God's work and will for my family. "
Up until your last comment, I was under a different impression, but I think I can understand what your saying a little bit more if you are agreeing that it is not for Christ but you still feel that this does not negate putting your children there.
God Bless You,
Since "Christian Worldview" is not in the Bible--would you please give me the scriptural definition?
If someone homeschools and their politics are those of passionate Democrats--do they have a Christian Worldview?
If a family homeschools both their children, but believe in birth control and won't be having any more children, do they have a Christian Worldview?
If a family homeschools, but sees no problems with letting their children watch hours of television every day, do they have a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools yet the wife is not in biblical submission to her husband, is that a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools, but allow their children to wear immodest clothing, do they have a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools--the parents demand outward obedience, but the children have no heart understanding of God, is that a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools, but their children are extremely involved in children's church, Sunday school, and youth group--do they have a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools, but celebrates Halloween, do they have a Christian Worldview?
I am not trying to be contentious--just trying to understand what Christian Worldview is.
Beneath His Mercy,
Since "Christian Worldview" is not in the Bible--would you please give me the scriptural definition?
A Christian worldview begins with the fear of the Lord.
They acknowledge and affirm the existence of a loving of a loving Creator who established the world through His spoken Word. (Genesis 1:1) In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1:1) They affirm the existence of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of that Creator. Acknowledge and affirm His life, death, burial and resurrection on the Cross. And because of the resurrection on the Cross, they have confessed the Lordship of Jeuss Christ and seek to make disciples for Christ. And as they continue to promote the Gospel and the Truth they are continually renewing their own mind through the washing of the Word of God. Meditating on His law, renewing their mind, so that they will not be conformed to to the world. (Romans 12:2) but instead they will expose the deception and deeds of darkness.
The public schools do not operate from that premise nor do they actively seek to promote the Truth and expose the lies of false knowledge and deception of having other beliefs or gods besides Jesus Christ. Scripture says that you are either for Christ or against Him. There is no netural worldview.
All of the other things I cannot answer because you have not told me if they are BELIEVERS or not. Being married, Republican, homeschooling, or church attendance does not give one a Christian Worldview.
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that He is risen from the dead you shall be saved. That is fthe first step to a Christian Worldview.
In order to begin to "think like a Chrisitan" one must first "BE" a Christian.
In general I agree with:
"They acknowledge and affirm the existence of a loving of a loving Creator who established the world through His spoken Word. (Genesis 1:1) In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1:1) They affirm the existence of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of that Creator. Acknowledge and affirm His life, death, burial and resurrection on the Cross. And because of the resurrection on the Cross, they have confessed the Lordship of Jeuss Christ and seek to make disciples for Christ. And as they continue to promote the Gospel and the Truth they are continually renewing their own mind through the washing of the Word of God. Meditating on His law, renewing their mind, so that they will not be conformed to to the world. (Romans 12:2) but instead they will expose the deception and deeds of darkness. (I could pick at it a bit here and there, but that's NOT what I want to do right now.) At least in broad strokes, we agree with what a Chritian Worldview is--so we might (I hope) be making progress. ((Like someone said up the comments a bit--I would LOVE for us all to get together in the same place and have a loving and respectful discussion of this because it's so hard on blogs.))
The homeschoolers from all the different situations in my last comment have all confessed with their mouths that Jesus is Lord. In good conscience before the Lord, consider their thinking to be Christian. They would agree on the statement of Faith as you have written it.
Do they all have a Christian Worldview in your opinion?
Thanks again Spunky!
A Christian Worldview is woven throughout scripture. I believe that the Bible is God's revelation to man. It is absolute truth. Having a Christian Worldview simply means that I attempt to line up my thinking with what is presented as biblical truth.
First, An infinite, personal, loving God created the universe. (Secular humanism denies the existence of God.)
Man is the crowning glory of God’s creation, an image-bearer of God. (Secular humanism believes man is an evolved animal and only valuable if he or she is useful to society. If you don’t believe this, read the writings of Peter Singer or BF Skinner.)
Man is here to worship and glorify God. (Without an understanding of eternity, secular humanists don’t know why we are here. Most people have made their life’s goal to produce and consume.)
The world is filled with pain, war, poverty and death. Every person, of every political bent knows that something is terribly wrong. A Christian Worldview asserts that the world is cursed because of sin: it is ruined and despoiled. (Secular humanists believe that these problems are due to a lack of education and not enough governmental control.)
Finally, how do we fix it? Man, born with a bent toward sin, cannot fix the problems of this world. We must repent, turn toward God, and be filled with the Spirit. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that creates a change in the individual. (Secular humanists believe that all of the world’s problems can be fixed by man’s efforts. Their solution is more education and more government control.)
While I will grant you that there are many Christians who are staunchly Republican a worldview is not a political issue. Two of the basic worldview questions are what is wrong and how can we fix it. Christians who want to fix the world by fixing man’s government are thinking like a secular humanists. We will simply never, by man’s efforts, create heaven on earth. It’s not going to be heaven, until it’s heaven.
I agree with almost everything you have said about a Christian Worldview in these statements:
A Christian Worldview is woven throughout scripture. I believe that the Bible is God's revelation to man. It is absolute truth. Having a Christian Worldview simply means that I attempt to line up my thinking with what is presented as biblical truth.
First, An infinite, personal, loving God created the universe.
Man is the crowning glory of God’s creation, an image-bearer of God.
Man is here to worship and glorify God.
The world is filled with pain, war, poverty and death. Every person, of every political bent knows that something is terribly wrong. A Christian Worldview asserts that the world is cursed because of sin: it is ruined and despoiled.
Finally, how do we fix it? Man, born with a bent toward sin, cannot fix the problems of this world. We must repent, turn toward God, and be filled with the Spirit. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that creates a change in the individual.
Those are GREAT and I appreciate your taking the time to write them here.
We will have some different beliefs about secular humanism and politics--both of which have a huge bearing on this discussion--and perhaps we can return to later?
But for now, would you be interested in apply your definition of Christian Worldview to these Christian families?
If someone homeschools and their politics are those of passionate Democrats--do they have a Christian Worldview?
If a family homeschools both their children, but believe in birth control and won't be having any more children, do they have a Christian Worldview?
If a family homeschools, but sees no problems with letting their children watch hours of television every day, do they have a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools yet the wife is not in biblical submission to her husband, is that a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools, but allow their children to wear immodest clothing, do they have a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools--the parents demand outward obedience, but the children have no heart understanding of God, is that a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools, but their children are extremely involved in children's church, Sunday school, and youth group--do they have a Christian Worldview?
What if a family homeschools, but celebrates Halloween, do they have a Christian Worldview?
I truly appreciate your conversation!
That last comment was in response to Julie--I apologize for leaving her name out.
=-)
I cannot make an assumption about the homeschoolers in this comment box. They have made "Christian statements." But as I have said, even Satan can quote scripture. So trying to discern their worldview from a comment box is difficult and not something I feel able to determine.
Thank you Spunky, we agree on that, also. (*huge grin*) Only God knows hearts? Do you agree with that?
However, I am a bit confused as to how you take external factors (such as public school) and make assumptions on Christians that would agree with your definition of Christian Worldview?
So, you are drawing lines somewhere--between what is and is not acceptable to God. Using your Christian Worldview, I am just trying to decide where those are.
You seem be able to fairly quickly reject a Christian family that agrees with your definition of Christian worldview, just because they use public school. Somehow you do discern that from a comment box. Can you tell me what the difference is?
Blessings for all!
I have not reject anyone. All are welcome to comment here.
Yes, Spunky, I appreciate that you are very careful not to use the word reject--and that you allow everyone to post here.
Do you think Christians that use public schools would feel rejection (I understand the word is not directly used) from this comment of yours?
"However, what I talk about is using examples from the public school to make a case for the worldview of the public schools. As the schools are currently, the worldview is not FOR Christ. The school's purpose in education is NOT for making disciples in Christ. There isn't one government school whose mission is to promote the teaching of Christ as the Truth. And in the words of Christ, if you are not FOR Christ you are against Christ. Yes, they may celebrate Christmas at a given school or even quote scripture in a textbook. But that doesn't make for a Biblical worldview. Even Satan knew and quoted Scripture. (No I'm not equating the PS with Satan.) But does that promote Christ as THE TRUTH to the exclusion of all others? No. They can't. In a secular school the worldview is that all religions are equally true. To a Christian that is a lie. This is exactly the type of elemtary principle we are taught to avoid. Especially with our young children. Better to hang a millstone around one's neck than cause one of these little one's to stumble."
Whether or not you will accept you use the word--you are rejecting thousands that use public schools--without knowing their Christian Worldview--without knowing them.
I assume you believe you can do this because you feel strongly that scripture tells you to homeschool. I think you would probably say that homeschool is not a disputable matter in scripture. However, if you listen to the comments here (other than yours)--it is!
Yes, I believe strongly in what I believe--just as you do. I respect you beyond belief for your steadfastness. However, there is a huge difference, because you believe you are so right--than I cannot be right. I believe you can follow God the way He has led you and I can go another path He leads me and we can both be of good conscience before the Father.
You do discern by your comments. I was just trying to decide how you decide who is okay before God and who is not. I am still confused.
I pray many blessings for you today!
jettybetty,
I have not drawn a line in the sand on homeschooling versus government school and I won't take a stand on these either. In the end, I want my child to leave my home and firmly, completely believe the truths of the Bible. I want her to be able to look into the world and respond with compassion and love without being attracted to the things of this world. The odds are not in my favor. Research (and not just Christian research) has shown that many, many children raised in Christian homes walk away from their Christian faith as adults. Since our battle is a spiritual one and not an earthly one, I pray a lot about all the issues that you have brought up.
I do think that some of the things on your list would interfere with that goal. Not so much because I have a book, chapter and verse to guide you to, but because I know my daughter. I know what she is struggling with spiritually.
I am not really interested in reducing my relationship with Christ to following a list of rules. Isn't that what the Pharisees did? And didn't Jesus call them hypocrites and vipers? There is a huge danger in creating a list of rules. Because, in the end, men start depending on following the rules to save themselves. They replace the truth of the Bible, that we cannot do anything to save ourselves and we are saved by grace, with earning salvation through works.
In the list you printed, there are certainly things I would not do in my family and I have strong opinions about many of them, but I am not going to make assertions about what others should do in their families. Christian liberty states, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything." (1 Corinthians 10:23)
So, I skirted around the issue and didn't really answer your question, can I be a politician now?
What is the worldview of the public schools? Is it to further the gospel of Jesus Christ? No. It isn't. We can discuss what their purpose is, but the fact is their goal in education is not to create a discple of Jesus Christ. Nor is it the goal to exalt the name of the Lord Jesus Christ above all others.
I haven't drawn any lines about what is and isn't acceptable to God. The Lord has done that himself, if you are not for the Lord Jesus Christ you are against Him. It's plain and simple. The public schools do not promote the gospel of Jesus Christ as the final Truth and authority.
When I go to a Muslim school I know the worldview. Muslim. When I go to the public schools I know the worldview is man centered knowledge, not Christ-centered wisdom founded in the fear of the Lord. Each has a purpose for the education that is against the Lord Jesus Christ. It isn't a matter of knowing the heart of an individual, it is knowing the purpose for which the institution currently exists. The goal of the public schools is to create disciples for something, but it isn't created for discipleship in Christ. As a Christian, I can no more send my children there than to a Muslim mosque. He who walks with the wise becomes wiser still but the companion of fools suffers harm. The fool is the one who rejects the one true God.
And I repeat, I have not rejected any public school parents or their children here or anywhere else in my life.
Simply stating the intention of the public schools is not an attack on anyone. Just the same as stating the intention of the Muslim school. They don't promote the gospel and Lordship of Jesus. That's not rejecting anyone. It's just stating the truth.
Please understand the question isn't about WHO is okay before God.
The question is WHAT is the goal and purpose of the public school? Institutions and curriculum have a worldview, that is presented. We are told to avoid those things which promote "false knowledge" and "elementary principles of this world." The public schools do both, as a Christian we are told to avoid those things. Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly or sit in the seat of scoffers. The public schools do not promote Jesus Christ as the one True God above all others. They are by definition then against the things of God, ungodly.
Julie,
I'll vote for you!!! I agree with most everything you say! =-)
Spunky,
We will just have to disagree here--I believe the question is the purpose of the person putting children in public school--not of any particular school. Every human institution is flawed--including homeschools.
Blessings!
Here is what I have learned from this discussion:
* There is only one way to interpret scripture. Unfortunately, I haven’t discerned it.
* The presence of devout and God-fearing Christians in a “neutral” or government institution cannot in any meaningful way redress that institution’s shortcomings or make it a valid venue for Christian children. Nor does God in His wisdom and omnipotence choose to sanctify such an institution by making Himself known there.
* The Bible represents God’s whole truth, yet for some reason certain verses are more important than others, depending upon who is interpreting them. And certain other verses apparently can be dispensed with or downplayed if they stand in the way of a specific argument.
* Jesus’s repeated admonitions against Pharisaic thinking and judging your neighbor aren’t nearly as important as proving your point scripturally.
* It is not only possible, but permissible to repeatedly question another’s deeply held and clearly stated religious beliefs, even if that is tantamount to telling them they are not raising their children according to God’s law.
I have not here offered a single word—a single word—of judgment or criticism against my Christian brothers and sisters who homeschool their children. I simply dispute their interpretation of certain Bible verses—verses which I apply very seriously and sincerely to my own life—as REQUIRING parents to keep their children out of public schools.
Spunky: You liken public schools to a Muslim mosque and state that “He who walks with the wise becomes wiser still but the companion of fools suffers harm.” By this you seem to be saying there are no more Christians in public schools than in mosques and the ones who are there are “fools” and “against Christ.” By this argument we are not to entrust our undiscipled children to any who may be “fools” or who aren’t actively “for Christ” and therefore are, in your interpretation, “against Him.” I would assume you would not then limit yourself to public schools, but also include park district classes, sports teams, community college classes, clubs, most books, magazines and other media, playmates whose parents don’t hold a sufficiently Christian worldview, etc., etc.
While this may be your goal for your children, I hold that none of us can ever be sure who is or isn’t sufficiently Christian in their worldview or practice. Witness the latest in a long series of scandals involving men of the cloth, this time someone in authority over thousands. No, I believe Christians will never be fully able to vet the world around them; there are just too many wolves in sheep’s clothing as well as “tax collectors” and repentant sinners whose hearts and minds are fully in Christ Jesus. I believe we are instead called upon to take the log out of our own eye and be the best Christians we are capable of being, prayerfully discerning His will for us and practicing our faith everywhere, at all times. How is a child
JB, you said, "because you believe you are so right--than I cannot be right."
Consider this: there are many groups of Christians in the world right now who indulge in acts that I *know* are sinful because it says so in the Bible. They disagree, and they will often quote various bits of Scripture to support their view. They see these views as disputable, or a matter of interpretation. I don't. You will never hear me say that these people are not Christians. I don't know their hearts, and I am not their Judge. But that doesn't change the fact that I *know* their actions are sinful. Would you honestly encourage me to say to them that while I find their actions sinful, that doesn't mean it's wrong for them? Would you have me say this to h*mosexuals who profess Christ? To people who believe abortion is okay who profess Christ?
Probably not, because you most likely agree with me on these issues.
Now, let's turn this around for a moment. You apparently believe that celebrating Halloween is sinful. My husband and I took our boys Trick or Treating just last week. I've heard many Christians argue against Halloween. I happen to disagree with their arguments, as does my husband. Would you question my Christianity because of this? I certainly hope you wouldn't stand in judgment of me for this. But if you honestly believe that it's sinful, I don't expect you to change your mind just because I think it's okay. I don't have to have your agreement that we aren't sinning when we go Trick or Treating.
And no public schooler has to have my agreement when they send their children to school.
None of this is meant to imply that I believe that public schooling is sinful, though I have yet to hear a satisfactory argument refuting the Scriptural arguments against public schooling that have been presented. But I am NOT the one who must be satisfied.
A point that has been continually missed in this discussion is that we do NOT have to agree that all paths are equally valid in order to keep from judging one another or tearing down one another. Saying that an action cannot be supported by Scripture is NOT the same thing as saying the person who commits the act is not a Christian or does not have a Christian worldview.
The public schools, by their own admission and the laws of this land, do NOT teach according to a Christian worldview. Our homeschool DOES. Imperfectly, because we are imperfect. Thankfully, perfection is not required.
"Never accept criticism when you're right; never ignore criticism when you're wrong." Our old pastor used to say that. When we are criticized, or even questioned about our decisions, then we should prayerfully examine our decisions in light of Scripture. If we come to believe that we were wrong, then we should change our behavior. But if we still feel that we're right, then we don't accept the criticism. It's as simple as that.
How is a child to learn this if they are never allowed to experience the process of discernment under the watchful eyes of their parents, to whom their religious development is of utmost importance? I am sure there are many ways this may be accomplished, but if you allow your child to participate in ANYTHING outside your home, you run the risk that it is not in keeping with a sufficiently Christian worldview.
Only God knows what is in the hearts of men. If Christianity were as simple as “following a set of rules,” as Julie says, Jesus would have elevated the Pharisees, not disdained them. Yet, the overarching theme of the New Testament speaks to following the heart of the law, not just the letter of it, to loving your fellow man and leaving the judgments to God. At least that is the direction in which I intend to err in my Christian journey.
I sincerely wish you well. You seem to be a community of strong conviction. I just wish I could have felt more acceptance here because it would have helped rather than hindered my current effort to discern whether or not to homeschool one of my children. I sincerely support homeschooling and am open to inspired knowledge wherever I find it. And Spunky, I am so very grateful for your blog’s witness because it has challenged me to turn a hard and appraising eye upon my own beliefs, my Christian life style, my mothering and my choices. I sincerely thank you for that.
Yet, I have found the Christian charity of this community somewhat lacking. In being ferociously convicted soldiers for Christian homeschooling, I fear your desire to be “right” has overshadowed your humility. Sorry. That’s just been my experience. Blessings to all.
If I seem to be saying that there are no Christians in the public schools let me clear that up. I know Christians in the public school. But that was never the question for me. There are Christians everywhere, but that doesnn't mean it is the place for the discpleship of children.
You are so right when you say we are not to trust our children to those who don't know the Lord. The Lord places a HIGH premium on causing a little one to stumble. He says, better a millstone be hung around my neck than I cause a little one to stumble. We are told to avoid the deceptive teachings and elementary principles of the world.
I am willing to examine my own life and I ask you, show me where I am in error. The public schools are NOT netural. There is no neutrality with Christ. You are either for him or against him. I humbliy submit this entire blog up to scrutiny daily so that if there be any error in my thoughts or actions it will be pointed out. Am I wrong in saying that the public schools if they are "neutral" are actually against God? Mathew 12:30 says, He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Are the public schools seeking to gather for Christ? No.
The Supreme Court ruled in 1962 that all religious activities be removed from the public schools (Engel v. Vatale) and in other rulings (Abington v. Schempp, Stone v. Gramm,; Graham v. Central Jager v. Douglas).
It's not a matter of having Christians in the building. The purpose of the public schools is not to disciple in Chrsit. Plain and simple. "Religious activity" was banned by court order. They are not gathering for Christ they are scattering.
Abraham Lincoln rightly said, the philophy of the classroom will be the philosophy of government tomorrow.
Christ and His Truth is at best relegated to one of many truths to be considered. And when all truths are presented equally valid, a lie is what is being taught.
The fact of the matter is, everyone operates under a worldview. Part of discipleship in Christ, and learning not to confom to the "world" is to be able to discern between differing worldviews, between the Truth and a lie. Clearly, the fact that we are discussing the worldview of the schools means that discerning worldview isn't clear or often consdered by many as a factor. And we are well discipled Christians! How much more difficult to discern the Truth from the lie for our young children?
But the Lord made discerning worldview easy, "he who is not for me is against me."
It is to the advantage of secualar educators when all worldviews are blended into one pot and said all could be true. In doing so, the diety of Jesus and His lordship is just one of many possible answers to life's meaning.
Worldview is what gives meaning to life, and one's belief about God and the universe we live in. Children intuitively know this. That's why very soon after they begin school many begin to ask, "Why do I have to know...." They are looking for meaning. The schools offer up the incentives of good grades, a good job, self satisfaction, etc. But one they do not offer is for the glory of Jesus Chrsit. They just don't say that. Instead, they compare children to one another and determine whether they pass or fail. But we are told not to compare ourselves on to another, but to become more like Christ.
But the why question isn't just about learning, it's about "Why is the sky blue?" or "The grass green." Children want to know WHY. The answer is because of a divine Creator who loved us so much He created life, and desired to share that life with mankind. The grass isn't green because of cholorphyll, it's because of the God who miraculously created chorophyll.
Denying the Creator in teaching our children, is not telling them the Truth. He is does not gather for Christ, scatters abroad.
There is no such thing as a neutral worldview. How we answer the "why" question tells much about ones worldview.
C.S. Lewis wrote, "An open mind, in questions that are not ultimate is useful. But an open mind about foundations either of Theoretical or Practical Reason, is idiocy."
The decision to watch the influences and worldviews that affect our children is a prudent one. We monitor their television, movie, and computer time all because we realize their potential for destructive influence on the minds and hearts of our children. The time to expose our children to these influences is not when their worldview is being shaped and formed. There will be a day when that will happen, just as a soldier will one day go into battle and fight valiantly on behalf of his commander. But an untrained soldier without discernment is opening himself and his fellow soldiers up to harm when released to the front lines wihtout proper preparation. I say bravo to the teachers who after solid discipleship and conviction go into the schools to teach.
My husband has been in the public schools 4 times in the last few weeks teaching high school students. He has devoted many hours to the "front lines" but he is able to discern the Truth from the lie. Nor is he being taught, but doing the teaching.
In years past, I went to many of these outings as well.
However, our undiscipled children are just not in the same place. Nor should we expect that they should be.
Elaine,
I am sorry you don't feel supported by this group. I do not feel that I am the only one who knows how to rightly interpret the Bible. That is why I like these kinds of discussions. They force me to question my assumptions. I learn a tremendous amount from other Christians and I learn the most from people who don't agree with me.
I think we can agree that a parent should see to their children's education. I also think we agree that, if the parent is not the one educating the child, then the person that does, does so as a representative of the parent. No matter whom I entrust with her education, it is my responsibility to make sure that she is taught truth. I have been challenged to become a student of the Scripture. I can't know if my daughter is learning truth, unless I know it.
I never know how much to share about my personal situation. I cannot talk about my educational choice without being honest about my daughter's struggles. I became a mother on a whim. I was in church one day and a woman presented the foster-adopt program. During the program, she mentioned that they were not just interested in couples. There were a large number of children in care, particularly young girls, who had had very negative experiences with men and did not care to be in a family that included a Dad. At the time, I thought, "I can do that." I was newly divorced. I was a major in the Army and I lived by myself in a four-bedroom house.
Before she was born, my daughter started to bear the cost of living in the world. She was born to a woman addicted to methamphetamines, cocaine and alcohol. She spent years in the foster care system before being placed in the home of a family member. Because of her behavioral problems, that adoption was not completed. She moved into my home when she was seven. She was considered "unadoptable."
I homeschool her because, I could no longer in good conscience allow her to attend a government school. I live in a small town. The principal of the high school is on the worship team in my church. The school superintendent is a deacon at one of the other local churches. I am prayerfully thankful that men and women that claim Jesus as their savior inhabit the schools in my community. But, for several reasons, I did not feel comfortable allowing some of the teachers to represent me. Additionally, as my daughter reached middle school, the teen culture was an extremely negative influence for her. There are teens that can influence and lift up their peers, but there are also teens that are influenced and brought down by their peers. My daughter was in the second group. Finally, as it became increasingly apparent that she was bearing the cost of her mothers alcohol use and had fetal alcohol syndrome, I could not agree with her educational plan. I saw it as being based in the humanistic thoughts of BF Skinner. I saw it as being designed to, through a series of positive and negative feedback, train her and not to educa
I saw it as being designed to, through a series of positive and negative feedback, train her and not to educate her. I saw that the goal of her “education” was changing her behavior. The Bible is pretty clear. God is not interested in just good behavior: He is interested in a changed heart.
I have learned by experience that my job of discipling my daughter is abundantly easier because of homeschooling. I don’t have to refute anything she learns from anyone else. My daughter is still exposed to the world. She still sees all her peers. We have children spend the night and she does go to youth events at church. We still hang out with my family. Alcoholism runs in my family. In fact, it practically gallops. We were at a family reunion recently when my nephew and a male cousin each brought their male significant other. We provide childcare occasionally for a single 19-year-old female that is a mother to triplets. We are actively involved with other parents, both adoptive and birth parents, whom are raising children with fetal alcohol syndrome. And, most importantly I am passionate about my daughter maintaining her connections to her birth family. So… the world system that rejects God and all of the consequences of that rejection saturates our life.
The difference is that when she encounters those things. I know about them. I can talk to her about God’s standard for sexuality. I can talk to her about being controlled by the Holy Spirit and not drugs and alcohol. When we encounter someone with a severe disability I can tell her that that person is created by God, an image bearer and must be treated with love and respect. When she encounters someone that rejects her because of race and responds poorly, I can remind her that we are called to pray for and love our enemies. When we talk about behavioral choices, I don’t talk about temporal consequences. We talk about whether God has spoken against the activity in Scripture. I am aware that parents that send their children to government school do this too, but I can do it all day.
“A student is not above his teacher, but when he is fully trained, he will be like his teacher.” This is biblical truth. The Bible; therefore, is our primary text. I don’t want my daughter just like me. I am a sinner.
If you are uncomfortable for any reason with the government school representing you in educating your child, be it political, religious or because of your individual child’s specific needs, don’t use the government school. But don’t let your opinion of other Christians influence your decision. Christians will always let you down. God never will.
Elaine,
It wasn't an accident that you chose to discern whether to homeschool on Spunky's blog. I have read all of the comments, and I myself have commented a couple of times up above. If all of the Christian homeschool folks only tepidly defended(I mean without the Bible to back up)their decision, you may not have been persuaded to homeschool because of the "lack of belief".
If I was going into battle against the devil, I would rather have a Spunky warrior on my side.
I wish you would take the time to re read some of the posts, I didn't see any lack of Christian charity toward you.
Spunky: I do not at all believe you err in your decision to homeschool your children. Not at all. I honor your Christian faith and conviction.
But I cannot, to this point in my discernment, believe that I am "wrong" in my decision to send my children to public school. I will tell you why: I am not a Bible scholar, but in all my readings it seems that Jesus and his apostles speak far more to individuals than to institutions (with the notable exception of the church). He seems to little concern Himself with what earthly institutions are doing, only with what is, and should be, in the hearts of men.
I also take great strength from the words of Paul in one of my favorite verses: "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword...No in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, not principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:35, 37-39.
This verse, as so many others, tells me that my Lord and Savior is King and is so much greater than any feeble human institution--even the gates of hell. With his help, I will be able to raise my children to follow His path--wherever it leads and under any circumstances.
You often quote Jesus's admonition that "He who is not with me is against me." I've always taken that to mean individuals, not institutions, but perhaps you are right that it extends to public school. However, In Mark 9, when John tells Jesus there was a man casting out demons in His name who was not "following us," Jesus responded, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a might work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he who is not against us he is for us."
Thank you Spunky for hosting such a meaningful discussion. May God bless us all as we attempt to discern His will.
Perhaps, Spunky, we will just have to disagree. I
Julie: You sound like such a beautiful, Spirit-filled person! God bless you as you teach your dear daughter, whom God place in your capable, loving arms . I respect you so much and thank you for sharing your story!
Discipling children for Christ is something that doesn't happen by chance. Even when you do set your whole mind and soul to do it and really want to be in God's will and pray and strive to be a good example to your children and only teach them that which is right, you still fall short to some extent because of your own sinful nature, to which are also added the sinful nature of the children, unexpected circumstances and people and events outside your control. It's a very demanding 'job' (if the term may be used here), a very high standard to reach. Is anyone going to reach this high goal when he doesn't even purpose to attain it? Can you get there by chance? It's absurd to even think so. I am a homeschooling mother and wish with all my heart to train up my child in the ways of God. It is my purpose and I am passionate about it. Even so I find I fail more times than I ever intended, having to battle my own sinful nature (lack of discipline, not enough patience and gentleness every moment of the day, etc.). Thank God for grace!! Is a public school's stated purpose to attain this end? Is it their purpose to impart a way of thinking of the world, themselves and God that is in agreement with what the Bible teaches, is it their purpose to train young people to love and enjoy God with all of their heart, soul and mind? Of course not! (At best, they ignore it and don't try to fight it.) Are they somehow going to stumble across this when a well-meaning passionate parent that purposes all of this still feels insufficient for the task? Never! God can use me in spite of my shortcomings and use my failures to teach me humility, to teach me how I need Him and to teach my son what it means to be genuine, not hypocritical (as I must humble myself to him admitting my failures). God never mandated me to willingly subject my son to people that want to train him and teach him but not with the purpose of training him up in the LORD.
Maybe my writing isn't clear enough as I'm not even a native speaker of English, but I hope my meaning comes through nonetheless.
There are many more things I could write about here as I've read all the previous posts and there are quite a number of faulty assumptions in what is written about homeschoolers, but at this point I have no time or desire to get into that right now.
The bottom line is this, if I may boil down almost 140 comments.
1. Not one time has someone said homeschooling is wrong.
2. While scripture speaks of educating your child--there is no scripture that states specifically states sending a child to public school is sin. (For instance, Galatians 5 lists sin that is not debatabable "19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like." In converse, there is no scripture that states you must homeschool your child. There are scriptures that evoke passionate belief from different points of view--but are not, were not accepted by the other *side* (and I hate the word side here).
Here's what it all boils down to: Does one Christian have the responsibility to *correct* another Christian based on scripture, when scripture is not clear on that topic? If someone were dealing with witchcraft for instance, that directive would be clear to me based on Gal 5. So, while the Bible does tell us to "gently restore" (Gal 6:1) a brother caught up in sin--if we seek to restore we should make sure there is sin in the area, and that we don't just pick and choose sin. (For instance, if we are going to restore someone over witchcraft, we would need to restore over hatred, discord and selfish ambition also.)
I don't think anyone here has meant for anyone else to feel judged. Judgement of another Christian is another scary thing. Matthew 7"1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." I pray my words have not made anyone else feel judged. If I have, I ask your forgiveness--that was not my intention.
I want His grace to always humble me.
Blessings to all,
JB, This discussion never centered around correcting anyone for anything. This was a philosphical debate on what the Bible says about education. That's all. As Christians we are told to rightly divide the word of truth. Discussions like this are necessary in our Christian lives. Otherwise, we would all just go on believing what we WANT the Bilble to say and not mature into the fullness of Christ. This discussion did not take place to "correct" specific person of any action. I would humbly submit that each of us who has joined in this debate seek the Word of God and prayerfully look at the Scriptures shared here and how the Lord would have you apply it to your lives.
Thanks for the discussion.
Spunky,
Those are kind words and I appreciate them. Of course, I agree we are to rightly divide the Word. I get the idea you are even okay with people that choose public school--it's not your choice--but when we are seeking to follow scripture but come up with different, but equally as valid directions--as long as they both follow Jesus--we can encourage each other--and keep discussing how to BEST apply His Word to our lives!
Love you Spunky!
I would like to add one final thought, Elaine's scripture quoted from Mark, In Mark 9, when John tells Jesus there was a man casting out demons in His name who was not "following us," Jesus responded, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a might work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he who is not against us he is for us."
In that passage, the disicples were worried because they person casting out the demons was "not one of them." Meaning they were not known to the disciples. But the way that you can determine if they truly are a disciple is because they cast out the demons "in the name of Jesus." That's the trademark of a disciple, they speak and act in the name of Jesus and we are told not to speak evil of them. But the schools do not speak and act in the name of Jesus. They speak and act in the name of the state.
If the schools were acting in the name of Jesus you might have a point.
Spunky,
Have to totally disagree with the way you applied this scripture--that's just not there.
Jesus is trying to point out how many he INCLUDES in His Kingdom!
Mark 9:
" 38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." 39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us."
The disciples were trying to decide who was out and who was in--Jesus showed they were trying to be exclusive--while Jesus himself was inclusive. He's saying the disciples drew boundries/lines that he did not approve.
This passage refutes that one believer can make draw a line between herself and another believer saying I am and you are out.
Because of Him,
I have been contemplating letting the discussion end, but since it has continued I thought I would throw some other thoughts out there:
First of all, as to the claims of condemnation and "rejection" of people by comments made by others, I am truly sorry that anyone felt rejected. Spunky accurately and clearly described the reason for the discussion, "a philosophical debate on what the Bible says about education". Condemning anyone was not the point.
2. A comment was made that "Not one time has someone said homeschooling is wrong". Conversely the implication is that some have said that public schooling is wrong and therefore someone has been hurt by such comments. I will raise my hand and say that I am one of these who have said this. I did not say it to hurt anyone, but instead to express an understanding. I apologize if this understanding hurt someone. I pray that your convictions are sound and that you will not be hurt by such comments.
I have been in the opposite arena personally and physically. When I was on the school board I had several opportunities for public education parents to walk up to my face with evil intent and express in very harsh words that I had no place on the school board. Others wrote letters to union members with false accusations as to why I was running for school board, etc. I have been called evil and other names by those who support public education. All of this came without any history of decisions, comments or anything else from me. These attacks came ONLY because we homeschool our children. These comments, however, did not bother me because I am sound in my convictions and am committed to the Lord's call and direction.
3. Regarding Mark 9, I agree with Spunky, you will notice in v.38 "we saw someone driving out demons IN YOUR NAME...". And then v.39 "no one does a miracle IN MY NAME...". This is clearly talking about people who do things in the name of Jesus, as Spunky has pointed out.
4. I want to thank jettybetty and elaine for continuing the discussion. I appreciate hearing convictions from another perspective. Part of the reason why I write and comment is for the sharpening by others of my convictions and understandings. When I stick my neck out, very often a sharp conviction will help me dig into God's word deeper. Thank you for continuing even though it may have been difficult at times.
5. There is a question I have been wanting to ask but it has not been touched on as of yet. For those who support public education, how do you teach your children about giving and charity when it comes to public education. As you know, public education is provided by fellow tax payers. I don't know of a single instance where an individual family has paid directly for the public education of their child. Jesus calls us to give with a cheerful heart and without compulsion. The "giving" provided by the public education system is one of coercion rather than freely and without com
(Continued)
5. There is a question I have been wanting to ask but it has not been touched on as of yet. For those who support public education, how do you teach your children about giving and charity when it comes to public education. As you know, public education is provided by fellow tax payers. I don't know of a single instance where an individual family has paid directly for the public education of their child. Jesus calls us to give with a cheerful heart and without compulsion. The "giving" provided by the public education system is one of coercion rather than freely and without compulsion. As I have talked with people, they are very reluctant to express gratitude to those who are providing for their child's education.
A Christian perspective, however, would be a heart of gratitude to those who have paid for their education. Is this being taught to your children? Or are they being lead to believe that an education paid for by others is an expectation and/or an entitlement due society? Are they being taught that a system of coercive funding is not biblical and they should consider otherwise as they consider the education for their family? How do you teach the biblical principles of cheerful giving when participating in the public education system?
This obviously gets into many other areas including the school lunch programs, transportation, sports and other extra programs provided by public funding. How do you instill the values of personal responsibility, charity and giving when utilizing these programs?
I am not asking rhetorically, I am asking because I really want to know how these issues are resolved with your children. I have similar discussions with my children and I am curious of other insights.
Again, I am not trying to open a can of worms, but this question has been bothering me for some time.
Brian, I appreciate the spirit in which you have commented here.
I still don't understand how you interpret "for whoever is not against us is for us." I see your comment on the previous 2 verses, but truly don't see how you commented on that last verse.
On paying for schools--how do you teach your children to be thankful for police and fire protection? How do teach them gratitude for driving on roads? How do I teach my child to be thankful they have food/drugs that have been in someone screened for safety? How do you teach them gratitude for laws that allow you to homeschool/worship as you see fit?
I will only speak for myself as a Christian parent here. We in no way taught our children a senese of entitlement. I understand many take advantage of things like free lunches, but then I would choose to err on the side of the child here, because I know so many children would have nothing to eat if it were not for some of those programs and that breaks my heart so much I could sit here and cry.
We have taught our children it's not the government's repsonsibility to feed those children, and when they have opportunity and the ability to do so, it is their responsibilty. In an ideal world every parent would take that responsibility, but we live in a fallen world. Next the respsonsibility falls to the church--but the church is not doing it either. So, should all those children die from starvation while they live in a land of abundance?
Part of the reason we wanted our children in public school was so they could learn compassion for all kinds of people--and be able to be Jesus to them.
No, I don't think the government owes my children an education. They all are clear on that. I also will not support removing the American education system because I believe our country would go into anarchy.
I am paying school taxes now and have no children in school either--I will from now until the time I die. I am just fine with that. On Tuesday, I voted myself some more school taxes.
If you can show me a plan where every parent will be responsible for educating their child--the parents in this country will do it--and Christians will 100% fill in the gaps for those that do not--then I would carefully look at it.
I wonder if our views of government are so different we can even communicate on this, but this is my prayerful attempt to answer your questions.
Thanks again for your spirit here!
Blessings!
Brian,
BTW, I have many friends that homeschool and feel like they have been attacked like you mention in your above comment. I apologize for that--that should never happen. You have every right to be on the board. I am thankful that you would do that.
This your side/my side thing in education actually makes me sick--I wish we could just be supportive of each other--when we say we are following where God leads us. I really try to do that--and apologize for my actions personally if you have felt anything else from me.
Beneath His Mercy,
Jetty Betty, you and I were saying the same thing. The dsciples were determining who was in and who was out. They were saying that these guys were "out" based on the fact that they were not "one of them." A false standard. Jesus said, you will know then because they act in "Jesus name."
Jesus was showing that he was more inclusive than just their little group of twelve, but not completely open to just anyone. He gave them a standard by which they could know who was a disciple. He who acts in "His name," is for Him, otherwise they are against Him.
As far as a plan where every child will be educated, that's God's plan parents. We have seen for centuries that God has called the parents to be responsible and He will hold them accountable. State funded compulsory education has not solved the problem of every child getting an educatin. Children were illiterate when compulsory education began, they are still illiterate today. We haven't solved anything. It seems compassionate to say that we are doing something through sate funded education. But giving a child an "education" without telling them the Truth is not compassionate at all. Telling children a lie, is never compassionate.
Thanks, I understand how you get that now--I still don't agree that you can apply it to a school--he was applying it only to individuals.
A school is just a building. It what is taught there that determines WHO they are educating in the name of. If it were teaching Islam it would be educating in the name of Allah. The teachers are not educating in "Jesus name" so who are they instructed to educate for? The state. That doesn't mean that there are not Christian teachers who are working in the name of Jesus. Please don't read that into it. But the instruction is not for the purpose of furthering the kingdom of God and making disciples in Christ. State education is in the name of the state not Christ. Christian teachers do a have a difficult job trying to work around that and I applaud that. But our children's minds are not yet fully conformed to the image of Christ. That is what education is for. The transforming of our mind into the image of Christ. We are told to avoid the "false knowledge" and "elementary principles of this world." That admonition is for believers and their children.
I can't add much to what JettyBetty has eloquently offered in response to Brian's questions. I guess I just don't understand how one would address the issue of public school finance without also addressing all the other taxpayer-funded services available in our communities and nation. Of course, we already have Christ's view of whether or not to pay taxes. And we have the instruction of the apostles to be subject to the government--even, in their time, the pagan Roman emperor. I raise my children to be charitable in action and deed; that's how I teach charity. They give from their allowances and we, as a family, give, not only money, but also time and talent. We take responsibility. We try to follow Christ's example, although we most certainly fall short.
I still can't quite understand why public schools are the specific target--why not military spending? Why not taxes for public golf courses or other leisure activities? Why not welfare or Head Start? And I have yet to see a cogent argument for what would replace public schools if that system were dismantled, as posters on other homeschool blogs so often espouse. It isn't enough to say it is God's will for parents to raise and educate their children without paying equal attention to Jesus's command to care for our brothers, to visit the prisons and feed the hungry. How would Christians and the churches manage to take up the "slack" left by public schools and other government institutions and services if innocent children who are born to ineffective and damaged parents would be the ones to suffer the most? Especially knowing how our Lord loved little children.
Finally, I have been prayerfully considering these last days what the Bible says about individuals versus institutions. With the exception of the church and minor references to the government, I can find nothing in Christ's message that focuses on institutions, ONLY individuals and his church. I may be wrong here and I count on you to correct me promptly if I am. I just believe on the word that Jesus is speaking to each of us, individually. In Mark 9, for example, we have no information on whether the man in question is a good Jew, a Samaritan, a Pharisee, a member of some sort of sect or any other information about him. It is only his ACTIONS that count--the fact that he was acting in Christ's name. As do many, many of the teachers, students and parents in public schools--how can their actions matter less than the philosophy of the institution (which isn't actively "against" Christ? It isn't the "institution" that mattered to Christ; it was each individual--that's what this verse says to me, as does "those who aren't for me are against me."
A final question for homeschoolers: How do you decide what if any outside venues you allow your children to participate in? It would seem to me that you would find significant "false knowledge" and "elementary principals of this world" in places other than public scho
public schools--scout troops, sports teams, park district and community college classes (also "coercively" funded by taxes). Do you attempt to avoid all of these? Do you avoid all other coercively funded public services as well? I'm just trying to understand if the public schools are in a category by themselves or whether other institutions are also wrong places for Christian children. I guess I never considered each place my children go in these terms before. Maybe I should.
I just never felt it was required for me to shelter them from the "world" only to teach them that however fallen, it remains "God's World" and they should live in it for him, following his commandments. Let me also state, just for clarification, that we don't follow every fad, we don't run from lesson to lesson and activity to activity, we attempt to be moderate in our choices, we have always cultivated tight family bonds, and I have not put my children in school so that I may pursue a high-level career, etc., etc.
I thank God for the opportunity to discuss our faith with other Christians.
Spunky,
If education in this country looked the way you think it should--what would it look like? Would you abolish public schools and mandate homeschooling?
If someone other than Spunky answers this question on their blog--would you please leave me your link here so I can read it?
I truly am interested!
Thanks!
Jettybetty,
If education in this country looked the way you think it should--what would it look like?
Education would be the responsibility of the parents. This could look different for many different families and communities. In days past, families would get together and hire a teacher to teach their children English or math or whatever subject they wanted.
If the "institution" style of education was desired by a group of parents, then they could pool their resources and develop the institutions.
Churches could provide educational services as they do today.
If parents chose to homeschool, they could do this also.
For the less fortunate families, they would have the choice to homeschool themselves or scholarships and support would be available from other sources (homeschools, churches, neighborhoods and institutions).
The responsibility for education would start with and end with the parents. The state and/or federal governments would not be a part of the system.
It is actually quite simple, but the current mentality of our culture just can't seem to comprehend such a simple system.
Elaine,
One of the ways that I discern the need for public services is by determining whether such service can be provided by the individual.
Can the individual provide for national and/or local security and safety? No. It takes a pretty well orchestrated group of people to provide for the safety and well being of citizens (police, fire, military, and emergency services).
Can the individual provide a transportation system that is safe and efficient? No. Once again, it takes a pretty well coordinated effort to be able to provide a transportation system that connects homes, businesses, states and countries efficiently and safely.
Another consideration for providing public services to a community is how the services will be DIRECTLY used by each citizen. I have yet to find a citizen of the U.S. that does not directly use the transportation system in some way. I have yet to find a citizen of the U.S. that does not directly use emergency services. ETC.
When it comes to education, the individual is fully capable of providing this service for themselves; nor do all citizens directly utilize the current system.
I would place parks and recreation in the same category. Not all citizens directly use the services nor is it a fundamental need that cannot be provided elsewhere.
Brian,
Thanks so much!
I actually like your plan--I just don't think it will work. This would have been great for our kids and sounds like your children, too.
However, do you know how many parents could care less about their children's education? Do you know how many parents work 2 minimum wage jobs just to eat? Do you have any idea how many single parent families are out there and someone has to work? Do you realize some children have parents in jail?
What if these parents didn't choose to take advantage of other sources because it was too complicated so they just let their children run wild--never learning to read or write?
If you can make your idea work--I would support you. However, you must come up with a better way to support/encourage/educate those that are less fortunate or anarchy would reign in our streets.
(BTW, I just checked a random online soure and 37 million live below the poverty line in this country. I would 100% support you to go out and within your homeschooling group reach out to some of these children and educate them like you propose--I would pray this approach would spread! Someone has to make the first move!)
Did you read my comments in reply to government funding? I am with Elaine and wonder why you ask on public schools and not other government services?
Thank you for your patience.
Blessings!
Brian,
We were commenting at the same time!
We would disagree on the use of public school--not all Americans are capable of providing it. Just by these children being in school--you are blessed. School keeps them off the streets--and out of trouble. (I understand this is FAR from 100%) I shutter to think of the children that would fall through the cracks if all of a sudden there was no public school. I hope I am wrong, but I truly believe anarchy would control our neighborhoods without schools for children to attend. I believe they would be hungry and breaking into our houses, just so they could survive.
One our my children is gifted in math/science. He's currently a senior engineering major. Neither my husband nor I are engineers--and he was way over ability to teach math/science by high school. If you don't have a public school system--how can we produce scientists/engineers/doctors/lawyers? Are you in favor of universities? Community Colleges? Would you use public funds--or would they all be private, too?
Thanks for an interesting discussion!
Jetty Betty that question will have to wait until another day. But a lack of parental responsibility by SOME parents is never sufficient to require something of ALL parents. we don't do that with anything else in America except education. If a parent doesn't feed their child we don't compell all parents to enroll their children in food stamps and buy at the same grocery store. If a parent fails to provide medically we don't require all parents to go on government funded medical care and visit the same doctors. If one parent abuses their children, we don't require all children to go into foster care. But yet because some parents neglect their duties the government compells ALL to attend public school? In another system of government that would make total sense, but we live in America. The land of the free and the home of the brave. We give the parents the benefit of the doubt in every other area that they will do what they should before we take action. Yet, with education we just don't do that.
Americans are the most generous, compassionate people around. We give and then give some more. But the fact of the matter is, the government doesn't trust us. They don't trust that we will take care of the hurting, the poor, and the uneducated ourselves. So they take our money from us, take some for administrative costs, and the dole out the rest accordingly. But that is the most inefficent form of giving.
Sadly, Christians are willing to let it happen. Not just for the poor and downtrodden, but for their own children's education. They let government benevolence subsidize their own children's education. And the result is children who, when they become adults, look to the state instead of God and fellow Christians for help in time of need. And as adults, they expect the state to fulfill the obligations of the Christian.
Jetttybetty,
In discussing the conditions of society today (parents in jail, parents who don't care about the education for their children, children who run rampent on the streets, etc), you need to consider that our public education system has been in place for how long now? Has immorality increased or decreased in that time? Has public education really been a solution for society or has it just encouraged the very mentality you are concerned about.
Why is it that parents don't care about their children's education?...it is because they don't have to...the state will take care of them.
With regards to the poverty level, there is not one person in our country who does not know where they will get their next meal or who is in fear of their life from war or physical attack. We are the wealthiest nation in the world and we are the most benevolent. Christ told us that the poor will always be with us and as long as someone else is suppose to take care of them (the state) no one else will. We currently spend in excess of $10,000 per student per year in our public education system. Do you know how many students can be privately educated for that kind of money?
I don't wish pain on anyone, but if the principle is sound (education by parents); but the transition is painful (some people fall through the cracks); it isn't the fault of the principle, it is the fault of the current system. The current system has placed these people in a position of destitute. The sooner we change the existing system the sooner future children will finally benefit from a nation that is concerned about education.
People I have talked with who wish to keep their head in the sand believe that immorality is on the decline in our nation. I disagree. Everything that a society does not want to encourage is UP since the experiment of public education has begun. Gambling is up; pornography is up; teen pregnancies are up; abortions are up; single parent families are up; divorces are up. Continuing the failed experiment will only continue to place future generations in greater peril.
As far as higher education...I would not be opposed to funding higher education, however, with what has been done to the current system of higher education, I believe it needs to be privatized also. It has been corrupted just as much as the K-12 system. I would agree that individuals may not be able to provide higher education, but based on the current corruption, I cannot, as a Christian, financially or positionally support such a system.
Excuse me, but who is "compelled" to send their children to public school? It is still a CHOICE and always will be. As for hanging all the ills of society on public education, that strains the bounds of credulity. If that were the case, I wouldn't be a Christian, my cousins who recently graduated from high school wouldn't be Christians while everyone who attends some sort of religious school or homeschool would be good Christians. We KNOW that isn't the case. That sounds like Pharasaic thinking--that one only has to observe a set of prescribed rules and all will be well. When in fact, we must open our hearts to Christ Jesus in order for all to be well.
I am scratching my head at the depths of animosity you seem to level at public school to the exclusion of almost every other institution. Nor have you yet answered where in the "world" you do allow your children; i.e. which places are above the elementary knowledge of the world and false knowledge.
You know what I think is wrong with society? Parents are no longer parents. They are too wrapped up in their own interests, lives and concerns to parent their children in the way God has instructed: to make sacrifices as they raise them in the His way. Thankfully, there are good Christians and they follow his truth and light WHEREVER they are called to do so. And for some that means public school or government service or nursing or the ministry as God calls them according to His plan.
As for Christians stepping into the gap if/when public schools no longer exist, well, what's to stop the Christian community from taking that on right now? Christian charity should have no bounds. How can you justify attacking public education without also extending the hand of mercy and understanding to those who might suffer from its demise?
I can't help but feel there is a hatred being expressed here for public schools and I can't understand where it is coming from. But I will tell you this: I PRAY the Christian community can come together, rather than allow this or any issue to separate us from each other.
And I will observe once again that all things are possible with God. ALL THINGS. Perhaps if you think the schools or anything else are completely and hopelessly empty of His redemptive presence it is because you refuse to see it.
I really will bow out of this discussion now. I'm finding it very troubling.
I pray for His light to continue to shine on us all.
Elaine (if you happen to return again),
As for hanging all the ills of society on public education, that strains the bounds of credulity.
I would have to ask, what is the best and most lasting way to curb immorality in a culture? The answer should be the regenerating message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now, let's assume there are 2 methods of education; one that openly and fervently proclaims the Gospel of Christ; and the other does not.
Of these 2 methods, which does public education fall into? I guess some people want to debate the truth, but there is ample evidence and even the claims of the system itself, that the public education system does NOT nor is it designed to proclaim the Gospel of Christ. Therefore, are we safe to assume that the public education system is not going to be AS effective in curbing immorality as a system which does proclaim the Gospel of Christ...if it is effective at all?
I can't help but feel there is a hatred being expressed here for public schools and I can't understand where it is coming from.
I don't want to be flippant with this, but the "hatred", as you might call it, comes from observing the reality that surrounds the public education system. This is by no means "hatred" for individual people. But the system is hostile to Christ; it is hostile to parental responsibility; and it is hostile to those who would choose differently.
As has been stated several times, this is not to say that there are not exceptions. There are many good people doing good things within the system, but from a legal intentional design, the system is not designed to proclaim the Word of God nor the Gospel of Christ. And with each passing day, the system progresses deeper into further separation from Christ.
Brian,
I am so impressed with your kindness in your comments!
Of course, I agree the regenerating message of Jesus is the best way to curb immorality.
I am confused when you say there are 2 kinds of education--one proclaiming Jesus, the other not. If you abolish public schools, and parents teach their children, unbelievers are not going to teach their children about Jesus, so I do not understand how Jesus would be taught. Christian parents might teach their children about Jesus, but they already are--and then in turn they are taking that faith of Jesus to school. Do you see what I can't understand?
IMHO--the problem is not public schools as much as parenting. I understand that's a subjective thing and I can't prove my idea any more than you. I can even see why you might be led to believe it's public school--but could it be parenting? If it is parenting (or lack thereof) what would happen if there were no schools? Do you think parents will all of a sudden--or even gradually--start doing what God has called them to do--even those that don't know God?
Here's what I guess might happen. Upper class students are already pretty much in private schools. I would hope Christians would integrate some students that don't have parents to teach them into their schools--but they might not smell good and they might not know all the correct words, so I think there will be issues.
I think most middle class parents will teach their children. They have been blessed with backgrounds, so that it would not be that big a deal to them. The Christian parents need to really integrate lots of less fortunate children into their homeschools. LOTS!
Those less fortunate--will have not a clue how to educate their children--they couldn't even if they wanted to. A few will be picked up here and there--but what about the rest of them? Will they spiral further into poverty with no education? Will our country become the haves vs the have nots?
I don't agree with you about our country being the most generous--I see our country as being the most materialistic. I don't see us sharing nearly what we need to be sharing.
Is there a first world country that does not provide the opportunity of education to it's children? I would like to read how that's working for them!
Blessings!
Well, I couldn't stay away. I'm just curious Brian, given what you've written, why you chose to serve on the school board. Of course that is your right as a citizen and taxpayer. I'm just curious as to why you would want to serve such a religiously, morally and financially bankrupt institution?
JettyBetty,
Your kindness and love of Christ shines through so consistently in your posts. Thank you for stating with so much love your convictions. I aspire to someday be able to do as well.
Wow! Elaine, you should write a book! Some people write in a manner that is flat, without emotion, even when the wording is perfectly done. On the other hand, some write with passion and their feelings practically ooze from each line. You are in the latter category.
JB, your passion and conviction, not to mention loyalty to your cause are to be applauded. You would be a friend who would be true to the end. I'm sure you are the person all your friends go to for comfort and strength.
I think you are both going off the point of this posting a wee bit though... the lost key to discipleship. We need to seriously examine what the Bible says about how to educate our children. I remember public school. I remember Bible stories, prayers and knowing my teacher was a christian. My favourite teacher (wonderful christian lady) is now a principal of one of the best elementary schools in our province. She cannot keep the occult out of the curriculum. She cannot keep the horrible sex ed course out of the schools. She cannot read a Bible story or pray out loud in school. She cannot comfort a child with a passage of scripture or lead a child to Christ. She can't. She can pray inside... and she does. That is why she stays... and watches as these precious children are indoctrinated with the philosophy of this world. What a terrible position to be in. Do not assume that because public school was fine 10 years ago that is is today. It simply is not.
I homeschool my children to give them the best chance to be a true disciple of Christ. To fill their minds with truth instead of a lie. All the other great things are bonuses. Someday my kids will be out there without me. I know that they will be as prepared as they possibly can, not from isolation, they aren't isolated. They have kids groups, choirs, gym days, lots of friends and family. We go to the park!! We are focusing on their root system right now. When they have a deeply rooted faith they will be able to go out as salt and light into this world and be effective ministers of the gospel of Christ. Right now? They are in training for the battles to come. There are little spats here and there, the sword arms are strengthening, they are learning about the wiles of the enemy and preparing for life... where God put them... here at home.
Public school will never teach them to be the warrior they need to be. It can very easily overwhelm and defeat those litte warriors to the point where they can't do battle with the enemy... or they can get so used to the enemy, they see him as a friend... because that is what the school system is now set out to do.. make the enemy the friend, and the best friend a child could ever have the enemy. Please, please carefully look at what is happening... don't get so upset that you "kill the messenger"... save your anger for those who are deliberately leading our children astray.
Jettybetty,
...then in turn they are taking that faith of Jesus to school.
Paul clearly warns us against this practice (1 Cor 15:33). You seem to imply that humans are somehow responsible for saving souls; that people will not come to know Jesus unless we convict and change their hearts. The church has forgotten that the Holy Spirit convicts; Jesus Christ saves and as we go about living, others will see Christ in us. We don't need to orchestrate some elaborate evangelistic plan to reach the lost. We live among the lost and as we live they will see Christ. You also imply that if non-Christian parents teach their own children that they will never have the opportunity to see Jesus. Jesus is much bigger than this box and He will be made known loud and clear to these people.
...the problem is not public schools as much as parenting.
I couldn't agree with you more, but we need to have an historical perspective and not just a static perspective in the current place and time...Why do we have problems with parenting? Where did these parents learn to parent? Who/what was the greatest influence in these parent's lives? Based on their parenting practices, I could emphatically say that they were not discipled in the ways of the Lord.
Therefore, if we want to continue the cycle that you so clearly seeing now, then we should keep doing what we have been doing for the past 150 years. But, if we want it to change, we had better do something different.
Our older higher institutions of learning were founded as seminaries to disciple men in the ways of the Lord and to increase Biblical literacy. Satan has had no desire of allowing these institutions to continue in this manner and over time they have become secularized. Single room schoolhouses were the standard discipling centers for younger children for learning how to read God's Word. Again, Satan could not leave these alone. Over time these practices were attacked and bit by bit the Biblical roots of education were removed. Compulsory attendance was instituted, as Spunky has pointed out, Creation was removed, prayer was removed, etc. We didn't get to where we are today over night and we don't exist in a society unaffected by history.
The cycles of history have continued since creation...Man exalts and worships God; Man becomes arrogant and wants to be like God...again another revival of turning back to God; and then again man's wisdom and pride consumes him and he rejects God again. Over and over for every civilization of the world. The U.S. has gone from the period of revival, escaping persecution and following Christ to a more secular society and is losing the true meaning of discipleship in the ways of the Lord. This is an intentional plan by those who wish to crush Christianity (read some of Dewey and Marx and others - See John Gato's book) through the use of public education/indoctrination.
I don't
(continued)
I don't agree with you about our country being the most generous--I see our country as being the most materialistic. I don't see us sharing nearly what we need to be sharing.
The only thing I can say is, you need to get out more and see the wealth this country has bestowed on others. Excessive taxation is the tool of social engineers with the intent to manipulate the dependence of the populous on those who control the money. Private philanthropy is one of the greatest blessings of this country, but it is being discouraged by arrogant power seeking politicians.
Elaine,
My children started in public school. We then moved to private school and now we homeschool. After starting to homeschool I wanted to learn more about the public education system. The people I was meeting in the homeschool community had bad things to say about public schools. I wanted to find out more for myself and did not want to take any of it second hand.
I studied our local system for a year and then ran for school board. Served for a year and found out that everything was true that people were saying. I was very diligent during my year of service and sought out anyone who would talk to me about the system...parents, teachers, administration, citizens. I followed statewide issues, national issues and pretty much anything that had to do with education. I attended a statewide school board conference and had the opportunity to hear the secular humanist one-world order tripe that they espoused. The keynote speaker received a standing ovation after she called for the elimination of the "ancient divisive understandings of the past" (i.e the Bible).
I resigned because I had done what I went there to do...learn the truth for myself. There wasn't much more to learn. My position would have continued to be a puppet for the desires of the administration and rubber stamp their programs. My children needed me home and so I resigned and came home.
Elaine, I do hope you have stayed here long enough to allow me an answer to your questions and assertions.
Let me first be clear, I have no hatred toward anyone and all comment here and previously are to learn and broaden my understanding of God's desire for me and my life as a believer. That said I'd like to address a few points you made.
You said, " Excuse me, but who is "compelled" to send their children to public school? It is still a CHOICE and always will be."
My comments were directed at compulsory attendance laws which are in all all 50 states. Compulsory by definition means "mandatory or required." When our country was founded we educated by subscription. Compulsory attendance laws changed that. They were first enacted in Massachussetts in 1850's. They required ALL children (8 to 14) to attend public schools at least three months out of the year. All children were required to go unless given a specific exemption by the state. Since then all 50 states have enacted similar laws. Is that choice? No. What the compulsory attendance law did was remove choice. It said, you must go here unless WE (the state) approve of the other choice you have made. If we don't approve you can't go. Your children will be considered truant and various penalties will be the result. Different states have differing levels of exemption and penalities, but the fact of the matter is the state has now decided for us which choices are good and which are not good. That is not freedom nor does it give the parents a complete freedom to direct their children's education.
The parents right to direct the education of their children is a natural right given by God. This right has been upheld by the Supreme Court. But the state has limited that right to only the choices THEY approve of. See this article for one example.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/0...pg/0.../736858-
298.stm
I have not hung all of societies ills on public school. Not at all. I just compared how this government program operates differently than other government programs. Yes, Christians are still free to be charitable. And many are. But the fact of the matter is, many don't because they believe the government will do it for them.
Inherent in that idea that parents neglect their duty and by result there is a need for state compulsory attendance is the idea that the state will NOT neglect their duty like the parents. Clearly, we see that is not the case. Both the state and the parents are at times guilty of educational neglect.
However, when the parent neglects their duty, the state is presented as the remedy. They must go to school or face trancy charges. Conversely, society has no remedy when the state neglects their duty. In fact, when the state nelgects their "duty" to provide an education, the parents are blamed again as being neglect there too!
The fact of the matter, there is no situation will provide a 100% educated electorate.
Elimination of compulsory attendance laws, won't create a 100% literate populace, but it will at least give parents the freedom of choice in education that was lost. Compulsory attendance laws have not served our country or its children well at all.
I say all this with no hatred or malice toward the public school or anyone else. But with the understanding of what our nation at its founding believed, that parents not the state have the natural right to direct the education of their children. And not just from a state approved list of choices done according to their specifications.
As far as answering the Christians call to be charitable, that has been severely hampered by the government as well. The requirements and regulations to operate a school are so onerous as to make it financially difficult for such schools to operate. Further, the schools rely on the tuition or generosity of those who have already paid once through taxation to pay for government funded education. To pay double is not financially feasilbe for most people. Christian charity should have no bounds, unfortunately, the government's "charity" has limited Christian charity. The fact that Christians still give despite the double burden is a testament to their generosity and willingness to overcome even those obstacles. I have incredible faith in the God's people and so does the Lord. He trusted us, to live and act on in His behalf in this time in history - not Moses, not Noah, but us. What an awesome assignment.
Lastly, you asked "How can you justify attacking public education without also extending the hand of mercy and understanding to those who might suffer from its demise??
That is a personal question with the inherent assumption that I am not doing anything else but criticizing. That by being critical of a government program, I will not or am not extending the hand of mercy or understanding to those who are hurting or suffering. That is an assumption based on what? I don't talk about the things we do or don't do on this blog. You could no more know what I do with my time and resources, than the color of my blouse right now. It would be best in a discussion such as this to leave out assertions without personal knowledge. I don't say this with any emotion or frustration. I have enjoyed this discussion and all aspects of it. I have no hatred toward anyone and try with all the resources God has given our family, to do what He asks. Including what I write on my blog. I thank you for taking the time to challenge my thinking and my beliefs. Your words have been received in a spirit of love with the desire to grow in Christ.
If you continue to read here, I hope that you will continue to challenge my thoughts and beliefs. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Thank you for stopping by and being a little "iron" in my life.
Elaine,
You humble me--it's your love of Jesus that's kept me coming back here many times--I am blessed--and I thank you! I believe love is the most important thing in dealing with our Christian brothers and sisters!
Martha,
What a complement! I do appreciate someone that's not afraid to discuss passionate topics and not shy away--and you are there--and I love for you for it!
Brian,
You just bless my socks off!
We've had such different experiences! I served for 3 years--not on our district's school board--but on the district instruction committee. (In Texas, this is an elected position also, I just preferred to deal with things happening directly in the classroom--instead of budgets and the like.) Our school district far exceeded my expectations in most every way--I was confirmed our prayers were being answered for our children! So, just as I've left a comment on perspective on Spunky's latest post--could that be what's happening here? God allows us to see different things to achieve His purpose?
I also believe in God's sovereignty--I do absolutely believe that it is God through His Holy Spirit that converts and convicts. I also beleive that we need to be where He leads so He can use us to accomplish His plan. It's not me or my child that does the teaching--but He uses us!
Spunky,
We agree on Jesus and I love you! (I truly do!!)
To add just a bit of real life example to the compulsary or "compelling" nature of our public education system, I just learned that friends of ours, who also homeschool, received a letter from our local governing body through whom we must register as home educators, that they must turn in the test scores of one of their daughters by Nov 15 or she will have to be enrolled in the public school.
The letter for this family is a clerical error because the daughter was tested by the governing body themselves and the test scores are filed with them. However, the letter was still sent with the intent of forcing compliance. The family has tried to correct the situation, but the person who can correct it is out on medical leave until some time AFTER Nov 15.
There are stories like this and much worse throughout the U.S. We are not free to choose what is best for our own children, but by God's grace we will continue to trust in His Word, His promises and His son Jesus Christ.
If a parent doesn't feed their child we don't compell all parents to enroll their children in food stamps and buy at the same grocery store. If a parent fails to provide medically we don't require all parents to go on government funded medical care and visit the same doctors. If one parent abuses their children, we don't require all children to go into foster care.
Spunky...You need to go into a court room someday, you will be surprised! Only the wide-eyed people actually engage in all aspects of life, including goverment.
JAS
P.S. I have worked on 3 political campaigns! During each campaign, I saw each candidate grow actually closer to Christ.
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