News Blog Comments
I am so sick at all this gay bashing. Some gays are bashing each other. I'm referring to various outing campaigns.
Christians claim that their god made this world and all that's in it. Then, for some, inexplicable reason, he/she/it decided to make GLBT people as well. Cause they've been with us on this long journey from it's beginnings. They will always be with us, and I, for one, think the human race is a lot richer for them playing a part in this cavalcade. Particularily in the Arts Department. Yoohoo Ratz-er, Pope Benedict, did no one bring to your attention the fact that the man who painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the guy who designed the great Dome of St. Peter's was a fag? No? Well maybe they should have.
There's only two sides, you're either a Resistant or a Collaborator. And unlike JPII, BXVI sure wasn't a Resistant, so...
Sad, really. A kapo succeeding a war hero.
This pushes the probability of a schism in Catholicism in our lifetimes into the high positives. All those Catholics in Vatican squares, I wonder if they understand this is the beginning of the end? John Paul II failed to address any of the serious problems facing the Church, instead chosing to rail against the same things everyone else across the ultra-conservative, fundamentalist world rails against: gays and that old crap. Steve is absolutely right in noting that Ratzinger has zero of the charm Wojtula had and consequently none of the finessing of issues. Only a charismatic leader could have contained the problems festering within (protection of pedophiles, extreme secrecy, a priest-class in dire straits). Plus, the election of Ratzinger, in electing an Old Worlder, seems to add even another level of desperation, that of the old guard trying to stave off the burgeoning importance of the 'Third World' Catholic diocese, who are often more conservative than the U.S. and European parishes.
Watch it fall. Or, more likely, watch the opposing units simply drift apart.
Ugh. Elevating JPII's hatchet man? And on the second ballot - Ratzinger must've had his ducks all lined up years ago to arrange his succession so smoothly.
All the nasty, retrograde policies of JPII (only moreso, probably), but with none of JPII's charisma or grace. Oh, this'll end well. Look for greater distance between the US and Rome, even greater distance between the Europe and Rome, and continuing Protestant inroads in Latin America. Africa will grow more Catholic, but can it keep up with the death rate from AIDS?
They took the Vatican's equivalent of Dick Cheney, and made him Pope. Brilliant.
I think that it is not going to be a really big deal. Really, the most of these folks are going to church 2 times a year and they are more than likely text messaging their friends about how sucky it is. Too long and boring. Pope berna yawna zinger ding a hrough, is the game on yet?
I wonder though if he wants to break out of that mold that he has been in for the last 20 yrs (sorry received devine intervention to do so).
The man has a very tireless wit and intelligence. His name chosen is fitting, as he'll have to figure out a balance between the hard core theologians and the progressives.
I do not doubt that the Bavarian will show us some interesting surprises...
I'm a practicing Catholic, and this is horrible. I can envision a day, if Ratzinger serves for a long time, when American Catholics bolt. And I'd be right there with them. AMERICANS raise most of the money and AMERICANS actually attend church. The Europeans don't do either (except the Germans, who are actually taxed). This sucks.
Having said that, anyone who's calling Ratzinger a Nazi is talking out their ass. He was Hitler Youth because it was compulsary. His father was anti-Nazi, and the family had to move four times to stay ahead of trouble because of it.
Thor: Well, we'll see how deep his Bavarian roots go.
I wouldn't say it means the beginning of the end for the whole Catholic church, but surely for the European and N American church - unless BXVI manages to make some impressive u-turn.
Makes me think I should check what the protestant US fundies are saying now - because they may be on the same wavelength when it comes to gay bashing or disliking Muslims, but Ratzinger also implied that Heaven was for Catholics only.
Thor: Accorging to conventional wisdom, Supreme Court justices and popes change course once they get the job. Trus in a few rare cases, I suppose.
Still, wouldn't the cardinals who elected the first German pops in 8 centuries be disappointed if Bendict showed inconsistency with his past? (Except for Bush, people vote on the record of achievement, hoping for more.)
I did think last night about Hans Kung, a living symbol of what has become of Vatican II. Kung was quoted in der Spiegel as saying the new pope deserves 100 days. For Kung, who's now waited decades for the Church to return, he's willing to wait some more. He's a guy who deserves some prayers.
I wouldn't worry about him serving a long time. At his age, he isn't even buying green bananas at the store.
And I'm against gay-bashing, but what's up with the priest bashing? Do you want to be judged against every bad apple in any group that you belong to? The name calling you employ against priests--"sodomites," and the canard that "normal" men want to start families--sounds like something right out of Rev. Phelps.
Not exactly a big Liberation Theology man, I take it, which should please our administration.
The rumor here goes that this is a pope elected in a final attempt to regain europe to the catholic faith. I don't know how clever this is when the numbers of regular churgoers are at a record low (10 % in Holland, 18% in spain, 25 % in italy). How is it going to connect, for example, with the spanish youth which only 45% of themselves say they are catholic?
I think the Vatican has lost the plot.
I understand Steve's comment that many priests are "flawed in some way." I think most Catholics believe that. I think most people also feel the same way about politicians. That they are, in some deep ways, odd and weird for chosing that career path.
Fr. Kung knows the Pope well; they were colleagues on the theology faculty at the University of Tubingen. Back in the time of Vatican II, Ratzinger was one of the leading liberal (relatively speaking) theologians that were the brains behind the reforms of the Council. He turned toward the right as a reaction to the student riots of the 60s, capped off when students stormed his classroom and took it over.
If Fr. Kung is willing to wait, I think I can, too.
I hardly think that Benedict XVI is going to swing leftward in 100 days, or 1000, or 5000. But if he lives up to his immediate namesake (Benedict XV, who tried to heal divisions between liberal and conservative Catholics), he might be all right.
With his advanced age, I think the Cardinals view Benedict as a transition pope. We'll have to wait for the next one to see where the Church is really heading.
Chunky,
This commentary by Stirling Newberry addresses why it is AND isn't justified to call Pope Benedict a National Socialist: http://tinyurl.com/bpz9y
As for his "I left because of the student riots" - riiight, he's been in the middle of wars and genocide and fascist goverments and I'm supposed to buy that youthful discontent is what changed the tenor of his heart? Can I file that away as being the same ideology as "I don't like activist judges like they had in the 60s when they upheld the 'Special' Rights Act", er I mean 'Roe v Wade'?
I agree with those who predict a schism in the church, especially in the U.S. I think we're moving toward an American Catholic Church. Gosh, they'll sure miss the money at the Vatican!
He's wedded to a past which does not exist any longer.
This about says it, Steve, except I would go a bit further -- this is the Catholic Church's desire to refight a war, they've already lost. They will not get Europe back for the simple reason that Ratzinger's faith is the same one on whose behalf European nations fought five centuries of religious or quasi-religious (Spanish Civil War definitely qualifies) wars, and they want the sustainable prosperity and broader human dignity of the current era over the oppression, suffering, and human degradation of those benighted struggles.
What makes this worse for the Church in the longer run is not only the schisms with progressives this will guarantee, but the indifference it shows to the issues of the developing world, especially Africa and Latin America. The good news for US progressives is that Ratzinger is so retrograde that he is likely to throw major monkey wrenches into the right-wing theocrat alliance in the US, through his certainty that all those Protestant heretics are damned, that the evangelical Protestant efforts in the developing world will inherently take on a distinctly hostile and competitive cast vis-a-vis the Catholic establishment there (as it has started to do already in Mexico). And it is likely to force the more conservative cardinals in the US to mouthe words to the same effect, raising the old anti-Catholic spirit among the theofascist Protestants here.
Best to keep an eye out for that and spotlight it when it starts to happen.
One of the things that people are too upset to make clear, is the "Nazi" symbolism is just too much, concering the doubts that people have over the role of the Catholic church during WWII. From what I can tell, they chose to remain neutral in the face of overwhelming evil.
That says a lot about them. And people've been upset that facet of things has been kind of put up makeup, made to look pretty and all that.
People don't like a cover-up.
ciocia,
I'm a protestant, but I know Catholics who no longer go to mass because of the child abuse scandal. A couple of years ago, the Jesuits had no seminary students in the US.
Priests are fleeing the priesthhood to marry women, specifically nuns.
So it's not priest bashing, but sad facts.
Before anyone gets too excited it is important to recognize that the Church is a bit like an oil tanker that moves in terms of centuries. Anybody else notice that the last German Pope was some 1,000 years ago... that gives you some insight into how the Church looks at things.
Another issue is that since the previous Pope had some 25 years to create a hierarchy that he wanted, you should not expect great change. They elected an extension not a new day. And one that might not be with us that long.
All tht said the great hope is that his chosen name was important. The tradition is that the name is the first "hint" at what the new Pope intends to do. He may just be interested in healing the divisions he helped create during his previous role... we need to wait and see.
I also think that while gay rights are important we can't look at every event or person through that specific lense alone. Forgive me, but it just isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. I support gay civil rights and marriege but we certainly have a bunch of problems to be solved worldwide and gay rights is not on the top of the list. (Personal opinion there, and I am sure that others have different priorities.)
Is always wrong for leaders to attempt to set a standard of behavior that they themselves haven't not always lived up to? If Ratzinger is to be blamed for not standing up to the Nazis as a 14-year-old, and then slamming John kerry and others for pro-choice stances, does that automatically make Ratzinger a hypocrite? Maybe, but then aren't we all? I hate gas guzzlers and I drive a mini van. I hate war and play computer war games. I hate George Bush and didn't spend any time or money to try to defeat him, other than my vote.
Do you guys ever check out the Newshounds blog? ("We watch Fox News so you don't have to")
Yesterday, they covered Fox's "premiere" business news show, Your World w/Neil Cavuto: the "king of business news" opened with: "Not just the Vatican, it is enough to have even bitter traders rejoice, and today they did. Who's to say whether Pope Benedict XVI is responsible for the market stuff? Today though, who is really second guessing?"
Cavuto wondered if today's rise on Wall Street was "a case of heavenly guidance? We're actually going to explore that in a bit."
Then: - Reporter Greg Burke in Rome. - Fox VP John Moody (the guy who writes the memos setting the day's agenda), author of a book on Pope John Paul II. - Rick Santorum (R-PA) on the new pope ("very pleased"). - Charles Zech, author of The Pope in America, and William Donahue, of the Catholic League. - Reporter Brenda Buttner, asking whether the new pope will be a "blessing from above" for the German economy (maybe). - Reporter Dagen McDowell (who Cavuto introduced with: "When was the last time the whole world celebrated as one?") on this "feel good moment" that "everyone" can share. - Carl Anderson, Supreme Knight of the Knights of Columbus on the "fantastic selection."
Cavuto, as he signed off before an ad break: "They say the skies opened up when Pope Benedict XVI appeared on the balcony. They say the stock market did too. Is there a connection? After this."
ghostcatbce: Thanks for propagating stupid stereo types...all gays are good at arts/straight people couldn't be artist huh.
As for this pope, hell he's 78 he won't last that long. it ain't the end of the world, remember this church survived much worse men at the head (oh and the last schism in the church was relatively recent and caused by having a progressive church...the Catholics survived Vatican II they will survive this as well.). I doubt that the Vatican is all too concerned with the reaction of American liberal Catholics...there are plenty of American conservative Catholics and well Catholics are a minority in this country and American Catholics are a minority in the church. The idea that the Vatican should weigh what liberal American Catholics want is a rather self-centered view, we are not the entire world folks and in many cases we are not the most important voice. Its probably a good thing that there is a world power that the American voice isn’t strong in.
John Stewart wondered last night if FOX was a new Archdiocese. Hate to break the news but the money is already drying up. Andrew Greely, who knows the American Church as well as anyone, has pointed out that the amount of money contributed by US Catholics has failed to keep up with population and affluence. And this was before the pedophile crisis hit. In places like Boston the tithes are way down as no one wants to pay for the Sins of Bernie Law. And you can expect more dioceses will enter CH 11. I know Ratz and friends see the third world as the new heart of Chrisendom but without the money from North America and Europe good luck!
Richard's right ... It's American and German money (and some kick ass real estate) keeping the church financially stable. You think African Catholics are filling up the collection basket?
Steve is right about not labeling this guy as a Nazi. That's an inaccurate cheap shot.
However what is true is that this new Pope has been leading the Office of the Holy Inquisition for the past 20 years. They re-named the office but never actually did away with it.
Got an email from my mother-in-law in Santiago who is Chilean and an incredibly devout Catholic. She was very dissapointed and depressed about this selection which surprised me because she is about as conservative as they come, and one of those who would probably be happy if they went back to saying mass in Latin. Opus Dei has taken over the Catholic church in Chile and she was hoping they might finally be reigned in. But doesn't look like it now.
Well, as long as the Vatican keeps putting these arch-conservative Opus Dei types into positions of power in Latin America, where they cuddle with the oligarchy and cloister themselves, the church will continue its free-fall. Evangelical Protestant churches from North America are making such massive inroads in Latin America that the Catholic church will be nothing more than an historical curiosity like the Puritans in a few generations.
For me it's sad in a way. Because so much of Catholic tradition in Latin America is actually as much cultural as religious. The holidays, the processions, lots of litle traditions. The more agressive Protestant sects are trying to wipe out every last vestage of Catholicism and as a result, a lot of beautiful cultural tradition will be lost.
All you travlers of the Hershey hwy just cool it. Nobody is going to take away your k-y gel
Sorry Folks by Ratzinger's Nazi Bio is
very sketchy. Their will be lots more dirt to follow.
It is worse that that. I do not buy Ratzinger's official Bio on his Nazi past. It is not what Police Crime Investigators like to refer to as internally consistant. The Police look for testimony that is internally consistant with realistic expectations of human behavior in order to spot lying and Ratzingers bio does not check out.
Read the following:
There are conflicting press releases bio's that Ratzinger claims to have deserted in April 1944 or mory likely April 1945 from an assignment digging anti-tank ditches in Hungary.
From
http://www.answers.com/topic/hungary
While Kallay was prime minister, the Jews endured economic and political repression, but the government protected them from the "final solution." The government expropriated Jewish property; banned the purchase of real estate by Jews; barred Jews from working as publishers, theater directors, and editors of journals; proscribed sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews; and outlawed conversion to Judaism. But when the Nazis occupied Hungary in March 1944, the deportation of the Jews to the death camps in Poland began. Horthy used the confusion after the July 20, 1944, attempt to assassinate Hitler to replace Sztojay in August 1944 with General Geza Lakatos and halt the deportation of Jews from Budapest. Of the approximately 725,000 Jews residing within Hungary's expanded borders of 1941, only about 260,500, mostly from Budapest, survived.
In September, Soviet forces crossed the border, and on October 15 Horthy announced that Hungary had signed an armistice with the Soviet Union. However, the Germans abducted the regent and forced him to abrogate the armistice, depose the Lakatos government, and name Ferenc Szalasi--the leader of the Arrow Cross Party--prime minister. Horthy abdicated, and soon the country became a battlefield. Hungary was sacked first by the retreating Germans, who demolished the rail, road, and communications systems, then by the advancing Soviet Red Army, which found the country in a state of political chaos. Germans held off the Soviet troops near Budapest for seven weeks before the defenses collapsed, and on April 4, 1945, the last German troops were driven out of Hungary.
Ok, you are in Hungary in April 1944 digging anti-tank ditches. The Russian do not even cross the eastern border until September. Most likely Ratzinger would have been building anti-ditches around the industrial areas like Budapest on the banks of the Danube in the center of the country which the Russian did not reach until very late Summer.
At the very least, if he was in Hungary digging Anti-Tank ditches he may not have deserted in 1944 as he said. Hitler ordered Hitler Youth and SS to Hungary in late 1944 and the German held off the Russian around Budapest until late Febuary 1945.
Here are my questions:
Why would one desert in April 1944 at the risk of being put to death for desertion if you were probably at no physical danger until Sept/Oct of that year???? After all you are doing is digging ditches. After all Ratzinger would have been almost 17 years old at the time. If found without papers he could have been shot, lots of kids his age were already in the regular army.
Remember the Deporation of Jews in Hungary did not begin until the Nazis began to occupy the country in Late March 1944. First Jews had to be rounded up and placed into ghettos and camps prior to deportation. The actual deporting of Jews did not begin in mass until late that Summer. Exterminating Jews would have been the Nazi's first priority. So I ask what was Ratzinger really doing in Hungary in April 1944.
Was he really assisting the in the deporation of Jews????
Ok lets pretend he was "Digging Ditches". Really now in April 1944 when the Russian are months from invading the country. A proud strapping Arayan Youth digging a nasty Anti-Tank ditch when the country is literally full of undermensch and Juden to do such nasty work. They sent this 17 kid to basic infantry training the months before so he could dig a ditch? Hell you mean so he could point a gun at dozens of forced laborers as they dug the ditch.
Something really stinks here and deserves investigation. I can not believe that I am the only one completely creeped out by this guy.
Look at this photo folks
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/ 2...380621024490386
Here is all I could find on the web about Razingers service in the Germany Army during WWII. It is from a somewhat critical biographer John Allan at the National Catholic Reporter. I can not believe that a more indepth study of Ratzinger's military records are not available.
As a seminarian, he was briefly enrolled in the Hitler Youth in the early 1940s, though he was never a member of the Nazi party. In 1943 he was conscripted into an antiaircraft unit guarding a BMW plant outside Munich. Later Ratzinger was sent to Austria's border with Hungary to erect tank traps. After being shipped back to Bavaria, he deserted. When the war ended, he was an American prisoner of war.
Under Hitler, Ratzinger says he watched the Nazis twist and distort the truth. Their lies about Jews, about genetics, were more than academic exercises. People died by the millions because of them. The church's service to society, Ratzinger concluded, is to stand for absolute truths that function as boundary markers: Move about within these limits, but outside them lies disaster.
Later reflection on the Nazi experience also left Ratzinger with a conviction that theology must either bind itself to the church, with its creed and teaching authority, or it becomes the plaything of outside forces — the state in a totalitarian system or secular culture in Western liberal democracies. In a widely noted 1986 lecture in Toronto, Ratzinger put it this way: "A church without theology impoverishes and blinds, while a churchless theology melts away into caprice."
Let say Ratzinger did not desert until April 1945 instead of April 1944. Then the question is what was he doing until then. What would he be doing in uniform until then. The Russians would have over run his position on the Austrian/Hungarian border by early April 1945. Are we sure that Ratzinger was not deeper into Hungary. Remember Hitler desperately wanted to hold on to Hungary as long as possible inorder to insure that as many Hungarian jews could be sent off to the death camps.
Hitler went as far as to weak the defenses of Berlin to send SS panzer units to Budapest. to hold the city.
This young man was surrounded by other young men who had to have been scared shitless at the thought of the advancing Russian. If the other young soldiers were scared and knew Ratzinger had studied to be a priest did they ever pray together? Are there any testimonials by his comrades that they did so? If they did honestly pray together why not share these experiences with biographers of Ratzinger.
I am sorry folks Ratzinger account of his Nazi past is just too thin., The details are going to come out and my bet is it will not be pretty.
llama:You're not the only one. A lot of people are, and for a lot of different reasons.
In any case, it's pretty obvious what the Church is trying to do. They've lost Europe. They're losing North America. So they're trying to focus on Africa and South America. South America, in particular, they're cozying up to moneyed interests, to try and keep the peasents in line, and at the same time get enough money to fund their operations.
Will it work? I suspect not. But that's what they're trying to do.
The more I try to investigate Ratzinger's army background the more murky it gets. Ratzinger would surely know that being any where in Hungary would raise lots of questions. So the story is he was on the Austrian/Hungarian border or barely inside of Hungary.
Hitler wanted to hold on to Hungary for one reason. The Hungarians tried to double cross him in early 1944 and cut a deal with the Russians to spare the country destruction. Hitler had let the Hungarians avoid having to deport their Jews and Gypsies and he went crazy. Hitler wanted Hungary held as long as possible so he could perform the Final Solution.
I am sorry but there are lots and lots of questions here. Hitler sent hardcore Nazis into Hungary who would fight on for little miltary purpose other than to help ensure as much of Final Solution as possible.
There is absolutely no mention of Ratzinger's Company/battalion/Division. That info would tell you most of what you would need to know inorder to check out Ratzinger's story. Surely US Army intelligence collected this information when Ratzinger was in prison camp and this imformation should be available
Sorry it is only a matter of time until we find out which army unit he served in and the shit starts hitting
fan. Every German army unit has been so well documented by either Nazi or Holocust researchers their will be no doubt if his even remotely feasible.
the Church is a bit like an oil tanker that moves in terms of centuries
Oil tankers can sink, remember. They go on and on and everyone thinks they're immortal, but.... one day the rock comes, and they're gone.
Want an example? In 1905 the Chinese government cancelled the triennial Confucian examinations for entry to government service. They had been going on, in various forms, for nearly two thousand years, rain or shine, as reliable as....well, the Catholic church. And then they were gone, and they never came back.
Sometimes an institution drifts on and on like a zombie. Everyone thinks it's deathless, but it's actually died long ago and is just waiting for someone to pull the plug. Such was the Confucian official class in the nineteenth century; such was the bureaucracy of the Soviet Union in the decades before it collapsed. Is that where the Catholic church is? Or where it will soon be?
Time will tell, but never say never. The Church is a human institution. One day it will be part of history, over, gone.
.
drafted into labor detail under the infamous Austrian Legion ("fanatical ideologues who tyrannized us without respite")
I found this reference on the remarkable Ratzinger Fan Club Website
http://p217.ezboard.com/
ftheratz...topicID=7.topic
The Austrian Legion was orginally a group of early Austrian Nazis that were exiled from Austria in 1933. Where the unit was further trained. One of its early members as none other than Eichman.
http://www.remember.org/eichmann...nn/ timeline.htm
Who ran the Final Solution in Hungary starting in Spring 1944.
I do not buy the idea of somebody being drafted into what would have been a highly prestigious ideological unit. The Nazi "Foreign Legions" where foreign born (outside of Germany) groups of hardcore Nazi true believers they are given the task of defending Nazi strong points to the last man.
These were hardcore SS men.
If Ratzinger actually meant he was in a "penal detail" he would have had to do something wrong that got him into trouble with the Nazis. If true why not say what it was. "PenaL" units were literally like the "Dirty Dozen" the only way out was to survive a suicide mission. However it is more likely that Ratzinger as assigned to a "Labor Battalion" which means something like a "Young Pioneer" detachment. The next step up from Hitler Youth to being in an elite unit of the Germany Armmy/SS.
Most likely Ratzinger is not telling the truth since he was Hitler youth part of the prized generation of young men raised under the Third Reich and not to be mistreated.
Apparently Ratzinger was attached to
an Arbeitsdienst (work service) battalion During peace time the Arbeitsdienst details were like the CCC of the New Deal. In wartime they provide logistical/engineering support duties to free up other men for fighting.
Ratzinger's unit was assigned to providing support to the Elite Ideologically Fanatic Austrian Legions. The same Nazi's who cleared Hungary of 70% of its Jews and Gypsies.
For more info on Arbeitsdienst (work service) battalions read this
http://
www.11tharmoreddivision.c...german_pows.htm
Arbeitsdienst (work service) battalions were kind of the next step up to regular military service. Late in the war Germany could no longer provide extensive training. It was hoped that by placing Hitler Youth under regular units they would learn by observation and example. These young Hitler Youth graduates were expected to take on Russian tanks with panzerfausts and chemical bombs.
To the Nazis being assigned to a Arbeitsdienst detail under an Elite unit like the Austrian Legion would have been considered an honor. It would have meant you were a Hitler Youth in good standing.
great fuck llama, he was about 17 years old! I could barely find the damn bathroom when I was a teenager.
So what's your theory, he was secretly an SS organizer, shooting Jews and Gypsies for fun? Hitler's long-lost love child?
Unlike Japan, Austria, Hungary, France, etc, Germany has largely come to terms its war crimes in WWII. For you to assume Ratzinger was anything other than a kid caught up in the fucking whirlwind from hell is craziness.
Can't say that I really care who the Catholics elect as their new witch-doctor-in-chief.
But I glanced at a few articles on Ratzinger and all I could think of was "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Dr_Maturin, you wouldn't be an "if I can't see it or smell it, it doesn't exist" athiest would you? I mean, as long as we're ridiculing other people beliefs and all ...
What Llama means, is that the Pope is a bastion of "morality". He's supposed to be a shining symbol, a beacon on a hill.
So this stuff is important. What did he do in the face of one of the greatest evils the world has ever known? Lots of other people gave their lives to oppose this.
I don't really blame him, of course, but considering his other actions/writings/whatever, the guy is a power-happy opputunist. All that matters to him is strengthening the Church, and his position int he same.
And considering how the official face of the Catholic church was to try and maintin neutrality....
No wonder people are upset.
Chunky,
First Ratzinger was eighteen years old at the wars end. There were kids years younger than him in regular SS units. Last Ratzinger was assigned as a "junior" member in training to an Elite hardest of the hardcore "Foreign" SS legions. Late in the was that is the role Arbeitsdienst (work service) battalions played.
The Austrian Legion was Eichmann's unit that cleared Hungary of Jews. The other foreign Nazi Legions, the Dutch, Baltic, Norweigen, French, Ukranian were made up of Ethnic Germans from through out the Reich. These units defended the Nazi Strongpoints or Festoons to the last man.
Sorry but old Ratfuck has a lot of explaining to do. He already shelters pedophile priests.
llamajockey,
The fact is that if he was assigned to the Luftwaffe, it is unlikely that it would easy to find his battery, kids were often assigned to these unitsto free up men for the Luftwaffe Field Divisions.
The Nazis didn't use Jews to build defenses, they used soldiers, like they did in Normandy. While the heavy construction was done by slave labor, the military stuff was done by the military.
Also, if he was involved in any attrocities, surrendering was usually unwise, since the Allies shot them in cold blood,
One wouldn't have prayed with his fellow conscripts either. The Nazis frowned upon such things.
The Austrian Legion was no elite force in 1944, but a collection of party hacks. The Wehrmacht elite was killing Russians in 1944, not digging tank traps.
And if the Pope was a Nazi, he wouldn't have deserted. The little Hitler Jugend were eager to kill for their beloved fuhrer, not sitting on AA guns and deserting and surrendering when they could.
All you travlers of the Hershey hwy just cool it. Nobody is going to take away your k-y gel
Not every gay guy is partial to that particular sexual act, so STFU!
The Austrian Legion was unit of hardcore Nazi Ideologists with some members like Eichmann dating back to before Hitler came to power. In Hungary the Austrian Legion's job was the final solution. Like most SS/Foreign legion units it combined the paramilitary with party doctrine and enforcement. It was not a purely Army unit.
If Ratzinger was assigned to a Service Battalion in support of the Austrian Legion forces. He surely witnessed atrocities. Being assigned the task of supporting such a bunch of party diehards would have been seen as an honor.
There is no question that late in the war Arbeitsdienst (work service) battalions were meant to fight along side the other regular units when the time came. Testimony documents that Arbeitsdienst units manned the panzerfausts and fought Russian Tanks. In the meantime they provided logistical and engineering support. Digging the massive multiple Anti-Tank ditch late in the war, meant forced labor in addition to "volunteers" These units were the next step up for Hitler Youth.
Ratzinger's bio is full of holes. It smells of Kurt Waldhiem.
Some people like to point out that American Catholics only make up 6% of the Catholic Church worldwide.
I'd be curious to see how much money that 6% raises as a portion of the church's income. As well, the percentage value of the church's assets that are controlled by that 6%.
And why do they keep pointing out that number? To show how little influence they have or to give them an inferiority complex as motivation to work harder or more specifically give more.
The church seems to work more and more like American politics. Money and power talk and the rest walk like that poor samaritan...what was his name?...oh yeah, Jesus.
If Ratzinger did not desert the Germany Army until April 1945 it is because his claimed positions along the Austrian/Hungarian border was over run by the Russians. He therefore perhaps did not desert as so much ran for his life from the Russians. Surely if the Russians found out that his "Work Service" unit was supporting the Austrian Legion Ratzinger would be in deep trouble.
Ratzinger's story, what there is of it does not begin to hold water.
Ratzinger's true Identity
http://americablog.blogspot.com/...ecret-
past.html
llama, you're sort of a freak about this. OK, he was 18 when the war ended. That means he was 12 when the war started, and 6 when Hitler took over.
But you're probably right. Why he didn't battle harder in 1933 against fascism is certainly a mystery. Maybe he wasn't allowed to cut kindergarten class.
Chunky,
First you have reach for the silly because you can not deny my points are hitting home.
I am very perplexed that this guy has been running the Vatican for at least the last couple of years and engineered his election as pope and nobody has done even a cursory check of the man's bio.
Are there any testimonials of other young men who serveed beside him. Am I really so freaked out if the reaction in is own native country Germany is so cool. Polls show a purality to clean majority of German Catholics are thinking Ratzinger should not have been selected Pope.
Right now with out a questions Ratzinger's Hitler Youth/Army Bio is of great concern. It should have been fully vetted years ago.
sigh, llama you don't know anything about his situation as you yourself said the details are sketchy. He had the courage to desert when they shot deserters out of hand and the allies werent much better. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's the christian thing to do.
carsick: Look the church has run like that for a hell of a long time, why is it a problem now?
llamajockey: by 44/45 the elite units where getting ground to dust by the russians, they where shoveing any ablebodyed nonjew into the meat grinder...he was part of an eleite unit only if you consider every german youth of that era part of an eleite unit. Hell by that time 16+ year olds where full fleged army grunts the fact taht he was still in the hitler youth auxillaries and not at the front shooting russians shows that he wasn't dedicated to the cause.
llama ... the only things your points are hitting is my funny bone. Why are you assuming the worst? Because he's a priest?
Well l&l that's 50% of the rumpranger repertoire
Now where oh where is the baby killers? THAT is who I want to hear from.
The election of Pope Benedict is a lot like The Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Namely, that it's just a jump to the left, and then a damn big step to the r-i-iiiiight.
Chunky,
I am afraid that if there is evidence that Ratzinger did nothing more than point a gun at some laborers on behave of the Nazis , many many Catholics will not want him as their Pope.
If he provided military engineering or logistical support to "Austrian Legion" units fighting in Hungary.
There will be more questions. If there is any record of Ratzinger firing anti-aircraft artiliary, rifles or panzerfausts in the service of the Third Reich, the vast majority of Catholics will be greatly disheartened.
By the way I was at least raised a Catholic. My parents you might say are True Believers. I was one of eight children. I attended Catholic elementry school and CCD through High School. Three of my mother's sisters were nuns.
If information comes out that Ratzinger fired a panzerfaust at a Russian or a Brit or even an American, this Catholic wouldn't care one bit.
If information comes out that Ratzinger fired a panzerfaust at a Russian or a Brit or even an American, this Catholic wouldn't care one bit.
Chunky
Well Chunky,
That pretty much says it all doesn't it. Because outside the Opus Dei faction of the Catholic Church, I think 90% of Catholic would expect a little more from their Pope. Folks find out Ratzinger ever fired any weopon on behave of the Nazi at Allied forces, donations to the Catholic will really start to dry up.
My question is: if you took a bullet that the Pope fired at you, does that mean you get a free pass into heaven? Wouldn't that be a blessed bullet or something like that?
All the nasty, retrograde policies of JPII (only moreso, probably), but with none of JPII's charisma or grace. Oh, this'll end well. Look for greater distance between the US and Rome, even greater distance between the Europe and Rome, and continuing Protestant inroads in Latin America. Africa will grow more Catholic, but can it keep up with the death rate from AIDS?
And while the African bishops are anti-gay, they generally favor letting priests marry because there's a worldwide priest shortage going on. There simply aren't enough priests to go around. Even in the developing world there are plenty of career options that allow one to get ahead AND get married. (One of the selling points the Protestant evangelicals are using in Latin America is that Protestantism lifts you out of poverty.)
Ratzinger's said he wants the church to be smaller and purer. But he's never actually worked as a parish priest, as far as I can tell.
JPII actually was out in the world, and IIRC even had a girlfriend for a short while, before entering the priesthood. Ratzinger, aside from his teenage stint with the HY, has never spent a moment of his adult life outside of the company of people who think exactly as he does. He is the ultimate ivory-tower guy who never watched a friend die of AIDS or saw a sister get pregnant after a party that got too wild. His knowledge of reality is theoretical. That's why he's so dangerous.
Hell stevorino, YOU'RE a sodomite! What do you care??!!
llamajockey: So basicly your saying that every german male whoe was over 12 in the mid 1940 is evil??????
Look its called conscrption, you fight or you die, he bid his time and then ran when he could. Nothing in his past marks him as a nazi, he maned AA guns and work in military work crews...so did every other german male youth of his generation, unless they where hardcore nazi, and then the ywent to the front to kill russians or where trained as werewolfs. HE was neither. Dig ditch or die is a far cry from running hitlers final solution.
Look folks its not like this guy is a borga or anything, he may not b ethe best pope ever but hes far from the worst and well the church has survived much worse (hell there where two popes trying to kill each other for a while), and well what the hell did you expect most of the cardenals picking this pope where put into place by JPII.
moonglum,
Ratzinger's military bio is nothing more than a couple of sentances. However, what has been stated raises lots of questions.
Look there where young Germans who refused service and were beaten or inprisoned or even hanged. There were conciencious objectors who instead manned the fire brigades and rescue squads, those that served in hospitals. There are lots of photos and stories of boys who served and died as firemen. Are you telling me that a seminary student could not have landed such a position? Did he at least try??
Fact is Ratzinger decades of close ties to a proto-fascist organization like Opus Dei raises very serious questions.
No, best evidence so far is that Ratzinger finds himself serving as a Hiter Youth support troop to an outfit of the German Army containing the most extreme ideological facists. The same Nazi who liquidated the Jews and Gypsies from Hungary.
llamajockey: Umm besides your own conjeture, what evidence?
moonglum,
We will soon find out more. It will get very ugly.
Anonymous,
If having oral sex with straight women makes me a sodomite, guilty as charged.
llamajockey,
The number of Germans who resisted the nazis were small at best.
I would suggest reading Antony Beevor's The Fall of Berlin to explore some of these issues.
The number of Germans who resisted the nazis were small at best.
Arguable and immaterial.
The point is, as it's always been, that the RC Church deliberately picked a former Hitler Youth member to be Pope.
It's a declaration of all-out cultural, political and religious war.
The church could have picked a more unifying figure during these trying time, but chose instead to pick the single most controversial, polarizing and divisive figure.
All other discussion is claptrap and useless semantic debate.
Jim J: so what you are saying is every german male of that era is evil?
steve_gilliard,
You can not tell me as a seminary student Ratzinger could not have volunteered for dangerous but non-military duty in service of the Reich.
Or at least that he could have tried to pursue such an option.
No Ratzinger ends up at the non-strategic Hungarian front in a support unit to Nazis Troops who were fighting the Russians in hopes of ensuring that they had enough time to kill as many Hungarian Jews and Gypsies as possible.
Sorry Steve, Yes it is only a hunch right now. But I am saying Ratzinger's story is bullshit and we will find out very soon the real story.
Moonglum, you dork, I was using art as a SPECIFIC example, because Michelangelo who painted the Sistine Chapel ceiling, and designed the dome of the Basilica, was gay. OF COURSE, not all gays are artistic. Duh! Don't be petty; You have a lot more importanr things to worry about. Not that there aren't stereotypes out there that make things just that more difficult.
Incidently, I just heard a CBC Radio report. Canadian catholics aren't happy with Benedict either, and the three Canadian cardinals are takeing heat for it. They're not about to apologize. One of them said there are lines that have to be held. That's what the pope does.
Spitting Lama,
when did you last pro-actively plot and arrange to kill the guy, who broke international law, invaded an unarmed country, killed 100,000 civilians and lied to the people of your country?
Were you 18 years of age when those things took place, did you live a?
Please reply in detail, since I will keep records of your actions and hold you responsible if you should ever run for office in the US or abroad.
You can file your report here:
..............
Rizla,
Silly statement.
No, I simply did my sworn duty as citizen and worked very hard to campaign against Dubya and to speak my mind to all that would listen over the last 3 elections.
Ratzinger not only has a past, but he knowingly conspired over the coarse of a long career to make sure he became Pope over the possible choice of many fine priests who do not have his moral baggage. He will do lasting damage to the RCC.
You know who is good about smoking out true facts like what llama jockey is doing?
ADL. Research groups manned by those who want to smoke out former Nazis and bring them to trial before they die.
I've been reading comments by people who ID themselves as Jews. It's a mixed bag. Those who take the pope's story as his word; those who advocate wait and see, and then there are those who are quiet. Those are the folks I want to keep track of. Because they are digging as we speak.
It could be that Ratzinger participated in either shootings or in transport of Jews, from what I surmise from llamajockey. I'd hate that to think that, but worse stuff has occurred.
BTW, Simon bar Sinister says he wants to bring together European Catholics again. Uhuh, right. Meanwhile Latino and African Catholics are really, really disappointed over this development. As one woman from Central America, said, "Where will we go now?"
Well l&l that's 50% of the rumpranger repertoire
It sure as hell ain't my 50%!
My question is: if you took a bullet that the Pope fired at you, does that mean you get a free pass into heaven? Wouldn't that be a blessed bullet or something like that?
Only if you paid a special fee first, than it would be an Indulgence bullet.
Believe it or not llama it's possible to be German and not be a Nazi. And if you're so convinced that a 17 year old deserter is a jew shooting war criminal why arent you spending your time digging for information about the "truth" istead of flinging wild accusations ALL DAY LONG?
Same mouth that blesses you and speaks of conciliation as an old man one time uttered these words as a young man.
"I swear by God this scared oath: I will render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German nation and people, Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and will be ready as a brave solider to risk my life at my time for this oath.'
-oath of Hitler Jugend
I want to know the WHOLE story-this Pope will say things that will impact the lives of millions of people. I've followed this string all day and
llama has raised some issues that no big news service has done yet.
Don't shot the messenger.
llamajockey: The church has had borja's and pedofials as popes....The new pope can't hold a candle to the level of evil the RCC has seen in the past. The church has survived far far worse.
Wow, Rizla's back:
"Golly, YOU DIDN'T serve in the US army in Iraq, that means that you CAN'T question a Pope who DID, and actually served under one of the most evil dictators in history."
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. The America-bashing would almost be funny if it wasn't so displaced.
"Miss, can I please have some ketchup with this?"
"IF YOU FILTHY AMERICANS HADN'T COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST YOUR NATIVE PEOPLE, THERE WOULDN'T BE A MARKET FOR EITHER TOMATOS OR THEIR SUGAR-LADEN JUNK FOOD DERIVATIVES."
"Um, miss, there was no Evil American Empire when Columbus discovered America...and what the hell does this have to do with your shitty service?"
I think Llama is onto something. I hope the ADL has the balls to really do some searching. Find out where his division was and what it did. So far, it seems to be that its sole job was killing civilians before the Russians chased them out--which is when it seems that the new Pope decided to "desert."
And under the category of Canard Prevention: No, I'm not saying that every German who was drafted into Hilter's army was a war criminal.
However, I don't think that a history of NOT shooting up civilians--or being in a position to--is too much to ask from a POPE.
Somehow, I think being morally upright and strong in your convictions is in the job description somewhere.
All he has to do to clear his name is...answer the questions.
Hmm where have I heard that before?
Are you or have you ever been a member...
Llamajockey,
Your theory is not very plausible. Work service battalions were actually near-borderline dishonorable for a healthy 5' 7" 17-year old by 1945. If Ratzinger was an enthusiastic Nazi, he could have gotten into a Waffen SS or paratrooper division or a Sondercommando unit in a heartbeat (by late 1944, anyway). Work service battalions by that point were filled with elderly men, 12-year-old boys and Latvians. 17-year-olds weren't used to dig ditches and point flak guns - the Heer turned them into front-line troops. If he'd been a Nazi, Ratzinger would likely have agitated to be able to join a real military unit - especially considering that promotion in rank could happen very rapidly in the last year of the war (and failing to have been a real soldier would have been a very very bad thing if - as a true Nazi would believe - an eventual Nazi victory was inevitable).
Of course, it's possible that the descriptions of Ratzinger's service that we have are inaccurate. However, since Ratzinger has been a major public figure in Germany for nearly 30 years, and the documents centers for all the documents collected from the Nazis are readily available to any interested investigator in Germany itself, it's unlikely (but of course possible) that his record indicates anything untoward. His debriefing by the Allies and a comparatively complete history of his unit should be available. Since he has been a cardinal since 1977 (and vice-dean/dean of the College of Cardinals since 199
, there has been no shortage of time for investigators to dig up immediately obvious things.
I don't know why that smiley face is there.
www.irishcriminology.com
Catholics As Universal Fascists
I have read all of these somewhat interesting, somewhat boring, and somewhat illogical letters.
There is a saying that goes “Convince a man without his will, he’s of the same opinion still”. There is another principle – and if there isn’t, there should be – which goes “ All reason is preceded by valuation”. This means that if I am a drug addict, I shall be gifted in defending the taking of drugs. If I am still a Catholic (however I like to represent myself) or otherwise religious and empathize with religious reasoning,
Broadly speaking I think Chunky eventually comes where he always was – a conservative, and a defender of the indefensible.
The obvious questions and arguments raised by llamajockey merely questions the antecedents of Pope Benedict XVI in so far as his antecedents are what they have been represented to be. Apart from the obvious shortcomings in Rat zinger’s so-called antecedents, two factors militate against any sustained credibility in them. One is the obvious fact that the Vatican could clear up all these matters in no time – a thing they refuse or fail to do. Why?
The second and coupling reason why the first becomes even more suspect is the even more obvious fact that the Vatican capitalizes on all kinds of propaganda; so, if there were good sound uncontradictable data demonstrating the bona fides of their new Pope, then it is hard to conceive of a reason why they wouldn’t do it, especially when they know that all the world is in doubt about said antecedents.
But truth to tell, there are other factors which I for one am surprised your correspondents have not tapped into.
1. Forget the personal arguments simpliciter, and focus upon the ordinary feelings of a young teenager. As far as I can recall I used to play the game of hurling when I was a teenager, for my school, my town, and my county. I have all the marks to prove it. My brothers also played for the county. And while my parents were studiously indifferent, I think I would have died for my town or county (or, indeed, the girls looking on) at the time. I cannot imagine having such moral strength to penetrate the political ramifications of the German Reich at the time or, indeed, the moral character to run counter to all those influences that made me love my culture in the first place. So, what makes any of us think that Rat zinger was anything else, especially when it was all about him? How dissident would one have to be to desert and look for a safe house – where? And as a teenager!
2. German culture at the time, so far as Catholicism was concerned was anti-Jewish, anti-gypsy, anti-immoral everything that was not under the strict control of the Church authorities. Whether in Ireland, Austria, Germany, Spain, Portugal or the Philippines, the Christian militant hatreds were all the same. Bastardy (the name given to children outside of wedlock) were as despised as the gypsies; whores and homosexuals and fornicators were attackers of the Holy Family and were policed by the parish priests, children were constantly beaten by them and the nuns and Christian Brothers, and lucky Irish children were compelled to bring a penny every first Friday for the conversion of black Africa and were otherwise compelled to pray for the conversion of Protestant Britain and Communist Russia. By praying for people, one constantly intimates the immorality of the regime as well as the superiority of Pope-inspired Christianity. My point is this: children, women, and minorities were hated across the Catholic world (see the use of De Juventute in Switzerland) for exactly the same reasons as the Nazis hated them. The coincidence of similar values is perfectly Christian. Nor were the Protestants that different; it’s just that Protestant countries almost by definition do not have that International dimension which is so powerfully focused in the RC Church.
3. One might as well ask with llamajocke why would a self-respecting Church elect an ex-Nazi as their spiritual leader, especially when they have had decades of conservative policing from the Holy Office under his control? The answer is because they are Nazis or still share those values, which are deep-rooted in the Christian psyche sine the third century, when the Christian Church forged its way into becoming the State’s Alter Ego. It was also quite demonstrably the Alter Ego in Croatia, Slovenia, the Republic of Ireland, East Timor, etc. etc. It should be clear to many people that it is of the greatest indifference to the Catholic Church what persons like your correspondents think about it. We are merely chaff who can hardly bring ourselves in a ‘free’ Europe to identify ourselves in public. As long as the Church retains a majority which allows them to control the schools, the hospitals, foreign affairs, and finance, they can enjoy their unbelievably extensive privileges with respect to schools, taxation, etc. and can churn out millions of children daily and weekly and for centuries who recoil like Chunky from their familiar original induction, still wondering hither and thither and afraid to think things through – and somewhat apprehensive to allow others think things through as well. Notice that the Catholic Church does not seek a debate anywhere. Although everywhere subversive of the State’s they occupy that do not do their bidding, they engage public opinion obliquely, through pseudonyms, secret societies, like Opus Dei, partial institutions, trade unions, political parties, the civil service, the Judges, the police, etc..
To demonstrate this – and obviously one should look for similar testimony in one’s own country – the RC Church’s organized campaign of pedophilia at home and abroad was only discovered by interrogating voices outside Irish culture. When discovered, not one voice was raised in utter condemnation of the lies of its Bishops to protect these monsters. Criminology was one of the first casualties of the events disclosing, so they opened a new ‘school of criminology’ in the Bishop’s own university in UCD. They controlled all appointments to the Bench as well as to the so-called universities (otherwise known by everyone as houses of Catholic propaganda). And who could condemn what was happening without risking their own jobs and careers. The secret work of Opus Dei in Ireland had even led the way to ratline some of the worst Nazis in Belgium and Germany and Croatia after WW11. And if they could do that, what could then not do over the next few decades?
4. Which is my next point. If instead of focusing on the personal antecedents of Ratzinger (which are very important only when the data can be verified) how do we explain the sixty year silence on the Nazi ratlines orchestrated by the Vatican and its innumerable operative, Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Rasputins etc.,etc.? Had not the Vatican and Ratzinger time enough to cough up and repent their connivance in getting the worst murderers in Europe off the hook? A bit like the Inquisition: how is it that the Vatican is always involved with the greatest serial killers in history? How? Because it is the Vatican that appoints – makes – them who and what they are.
And if we trace the Vatican’s latest crimes, the coupling of Ronald Reagan and John Paul 11, either in South America or in Poland and the desolation of Communist Russia, we get a view of the continuation of the same old thing. And that’s not to mention Vietnam, where the poor Vietnamese still associate whitey with Christian with food and privilege – and up go all those Catholic Churches. And if the Vietnamese try to stop them, the Vatican will call on its friend the US of A, the guys with the big Christian guns.
And so it goes, on and on…
The ‘sorrys’ and the ‘apologies’ and idle correspondence from people like us, who keep asking the obvious: Is it true? Is Christianity besieged by monsters? How could Augustine and Tertullian have bred such monsters? We knew that there was something terroristic about the zealot like Augustine, Tertullian or Ratzinger… We just don’t believe our own knowledge. The duck waggles, gaggles and quacks, but is it really a duck?
But John Paul 11 apologized for Popery and its two thousand year hatred of Jews. How could Pope Benedict XVI join forces with Blair and Bush and launch another war against Islam? READ THE REGENSBURG LECTURE. IT’S ALL THERE!!!
If we focus on these other commonsensical matters, like the escape routes for the Nazis, surely it is apparent that even if the Christians aren’t intrinsically latent fascists (which in my opinion they ineluctably are), the Catholic Church has certainly gone a long way to save them from justice – and has in the meantime demonstrated its total control over those states that helped them. In the Irish case, everything was simple. Under De Valera and the predominant party in Power since 1936, Fianna Fail (The Soldiers of Destiny), the Nazis were not only rescued but given privileged positions, as businessmen and educationalists (very close the heart of the Catholic church) and politics, but, at the same time, not a handful of poor deserving wretched Jews were allowed into this Republic of ‘Saints and Scholars.” Long before WW11 James Joyce had noted the makeup of the Irish Catholic with respect to his Judaic forebear, and while one Leopold Bloom features large in Joyce’s Ulysses, Joyce always knew that the Catholic Church would never allow Jews into Ireland – since when, no doubt, Joyce, as a young man, having read Ibsen quite dramatically decided ‘To go and forge the uncreated conscience of my race’ (then under the jackboot of Catholicism!). Most Irish people could never countenance the notion that the Church actually OWNS them and their country, and only allows them and their political parties to do their occasional theatre, as if they were a secular society. When the banker has a certain level of control,
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