Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
What caught my eye was the fact they have a Mass that is a combination of English and Latin.
That is what I am hoping will turn the "vernacular" Masses around and help them to become the inspiration for genuine sacred worship that is so evident in many Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican parishes.
SJC is my parish.
Last night, I showed up an hour or so before the Latin Holy Hour. It was the end of the 40 hours devotion, and I sat in that sort of empty (at that time) parish and stared at the Blessed Sacrament and when I'd hear a siren pass outside or a jackhammer or some other city noise, all I could think was, "This is my refuge and my oasis."
It is the one place into which I can totally and utterly escape city life.
Nice article - thank you.
I have been blessed these past 18 years to have this parish available to me when I can no longer take the banality and triteness of my suburban parish. I go there at least once a month, sometimes twice. Although I am not proud to say this, but for St. John's, I may have simply walked away from the practice (but never the beliefs) of my Faith.
What Jeffrey describes is all accurate and true. On Sundays the liturgies are always full and the composition of the congregation is generally 75% under the age of 50 with many young families with lots of children. It lays to rest the big lie repeated relentlessly these past 40 years by liturgical progressives, that the young do not like Latin, Chant and sacred tradition. I believe it is a model for better things to come. I hope all of you who comment on this site have the opportunity to visit St. John's in the near future. You will not be disappointed. Tom
Yes, I was saved by St. John Cantius as well. I thought that there was nothing left of my Catholic faith that was stomped out of me after bad liturgy after bad liturgy. Liturgy, at its purest, is transformational and gives formation. Bad liturgy, well, enough said on that topic...
HOWEVER, am I completely alone in my consistent feeling of being confounded after attending most liturgies at SJC? I don't attend every liturgy since I am a troubadour church musician, but I go at least two or three times a month. The music is almost consistently lovely--the chanting has significantly improved in the past five years.
What I find challenging is maybe my own ignorance--being a totally post-conciliar Roman Catholic---but when I participate in liturgies, basically stated, I don't know HOW to participate. In the Latin Missa Normativa, no response sheet is given to the congregation. I see some people bring their own aides, but I'm usually at a loss.
During the Extraordinary Form, I've experienced confusion from the congregation---should we stand? should we respond with the choir? should we kneel? should we do cartwheels in the nave? This all happening whilst everyone looks at everyone else because they don't want to embarrass themselves! And unfortunately, I've experienced on an occasion or two, the Mumbled Mass with botched Latin.
I'd go on but don't want to seem uncharitable and wanted to know if anyone else felt the same way. I live down the street from SJC and probably wouldn't go anywhere else in the city, but my actual favorite time to go there is Saturday night. Missa Normativa--in English--ad orientem--celebrated as a Low Mass---although they SPEAK the Alleluia!! It's a pleasure to see the rubrics carried out and Mass presented in an extremely prayer-inducing manner.
My last confusion is a Calendar issue for those in bi-ritual parishes. How can we rectify celebrating different feasts on the same days? (BTW, does anyone have any clear information on how the new calendar was constructed or, rather, reconstructed?)
May the Blessed Virgin keep SJC in her constant watch.
E
I went to a wedding there last month and it was incredible and the first one of it's kind. They even had Indian flower garlands. The Mass was all in Latin and the couple was kneeling at the altar the entire time. The Sacrament of Matrimony was performed first. The Music was incredible seeming like it was coming out of nowhere and everywhere. I thought the choir was by the altar but nobody was there and it was in the back. It was a little long and some did not know when to kneel nor the Latin--but everyone said it was beautiful. The bride was Indian Catholic and the groom was Italian.
Jeffrey,
Thank you for letting us all know: It can be done!!!
Fr. Scott Bailey, C.Ss.R.
I admire the work of St. John Cantius as well and have been there many times. Amidst all of their good work, however, I have noticed a bit of antiquarianism for the sake of antiquarianism. In general, even in the Latin Novus Ordo, there is little singing of the people's proper parts among the congregation. I have also found a streak of Jansenism in certain of their priests hearing confessions.
Don't get me wrong--I love the work being done here. The parish is a leader in so many ways. But it seems at times that the genuine reforms of the pre-Vatican II Liturgical Movement could use a little more emphasis here.
"While we were there, we were among the first to hear the wonderful news that the Order has been given yet another parish in town"
Do you know the name of this second parish?
Hey Mr. Anonymous et al.,
I'm going to start a blog about my ruminations of a young man figuring out his place in the Church--stories of a music director past and anecdotes of time as a pew sitter in Chicago and elsewhere and some personal observations about our crazed secular world.
http://orapronobis123.blogspot.com/
Anonymous,
"...there is little singing of the people's proper parts among the congregation."
Which specific parts do you mean?
There is not a complete absence of hymns -- there is often, in my limited experience, a hymn published in the bulletin that is used for recessional.
(Incidentally, I was the person gushing like a fanboy at the release of the newest Halo, at meeting Dr Mahry after Mass yesterday. I blogged about it)
Anon, I am very surprised to hear you say this, I DON'T know much of the Gregorian Kyriale, but I always hear people around me singing the Ordinary, and find it very easy to join in as I learn more.
And I go out of my way to go to confession there, and have never found ANYTHING such as you describe, from any of numerous priests.
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
I was there for the first time this week, attending the Missa In Cantu seminar, and Jeffrey, you have put into words exactly my impressions. SJC is a miracle. Those who call themselves "progressive" and believe that Lifeteen represents the future of Catholicism need to go to St. John Cantius and see how the liturgy is lived in a genuinely progressive parish.
A delightful side aspect of this parish, which Jeffrey's post touched upon, is its almost Venetian acquisitiveness. Everywhere you go in the church or the parish complex below it, there are ecclesiastical artifacts. It is sort of an orphanage for treasures cast off by clueless clergy or saved from demolished churches: paintings, sacristy cabinets, altars, candlestands, statues, reliquaries, crucifixes, gargoyles, stoups, and on and on. I spent the break times wandering around seeking artistic treasures in odd corners.
I echo Jeffrey's recommendation: take a few vacation days in Chicago and spend them at SJC.
What a beacon of hope!
In the tender compassion of our God
the dawn from on high [has broken] upon us,
to shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death...
(cf. Lk 1)
.
It strikes me that, in a sense, SJC's provision of a home for unwanted artistic treasures is a metaphor for its welcoming of the treasures of the Liturgy which appear to be unwanted in so many places.
My only critique of this otherwise wonderful description of St. John Cantius is this: An absence of hymns should NEVER be described as delightful.
A full church congregation singing their hearts out is just as beautiful a part of the liturgy as the ethereal Gregorian chants provided by a schola.
Actually there wasn't a total absence of hymns. Hymns, in Latin or English, concluded the Masses and were sung very well by the congregation - at least those whom I heard around me.
I was also impressed by the talent of the young organist who was one of the Canons. He has a very solid technique and leads the hymns with a clear sense of where the singers need to breathe. He also registers the hymns very boldly, a refreshing change from organists who seem afraid of making any noise with their instrument. The growl of the Kilgen's 16-foot pedal reed drives the last verse home very effectively.
Richard,
The people can and should chant too.
It is said that Chicago has two jewels
SJC and Annunciation Byzantine, soon to be joined by a third, the Shrine of Christ the King run by the ICKSP.
Right, I shouldn't have said absence of hymns. I probably just got carried away. The hymns in the office of course were tremendous. Just hanging around this place for a couple of days, I feel like I've seen the fullness of Catholic liturgy for the first time. This is not an exaggeration.
Eric, you have one reader for sure!
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
John M. interesting to read your take.
You, I assume, are a lay musician?
I wish I could have afforded (on my own,) to go, or to take time off from my parish duties.
I felt, reading posts on earlier threads, that their could have been a Yenta standing out on Carpenter, making matches between potential pastors and enlightened musicians!
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
Geri
Yes, I am a lay parish music director in Upper Michigan, a few hours' drive north of Chicago. I was blessed to be able to take time off from my parish duties, mainly because my pastor and I both attended the seminar. We are looking forward to the CMAA Sacred Music Colloquium next June in Chicago, when we hope to visit SJC again.
Anonymous:
How would Jansenism manifest itself in a confession setting?
If it wasn't for Fr. Frank Phillips I would have remaind a fallen-away Catholic. He was my music and morality teacher in high school. I am now a priest of 8 years. May God continue to bless him and his parish.
All I have to say is I would Love to see them in the Bridgeport Diocese.
It is my hope that they will continue to flourish. It is my hope that orders or congregations with a Traditional bent either with the old or new form will continue to flourish. To Fra Lew O.P. in the UK you are still in my prayers. How many years until you are ordained?
JPG
Oftentimes, what we think of nowadasy as "Jansenism" is nothing more than Catholic moral teaching, presented the way it should be. After decades of extremely lax confessional practice on the part of too many confessors (even orthodox ones), many good and devout Catholics can be stunned by the unaccustomed harshness of the rare priest who proposes Catholic moral teaching in a stark, uncompromising and challenging manner. More fire and brimstone, not less, is badly needed in our confessionals. I say that as somebody who's had my share of serious failings and who deserves more than one good scolding.
Padre Pio was known to withhold absolution from about a third of his penitents. He also hollered at many of his penitents. The Cure d'Ars was known for his severity in getting his penitents to cut off the roots and occasions of sin. And yet, people flocked to them, and their fatherly "severity" saved countless souls from hell. To the plea that we are in the era of Divine Mercy and that boundless gentleness, "compassion" and mercy should reign in the confessional, I can only reply that the greatest mercy is to save souls from hell. Compassion that sugarcoats failings and blinds us from the seriousness of our sins is false compassion.
Coming back to Jansenism, this is how real Jansenism looks like:
1) Rare communion, and only after rigorous penance and prayer. Furthermore, one has to be free even from venial sins in order to receive communion.
2) Penance first before sacramental absolution! (In short, one goes to confession, then goes out to perform the penance, then comes back a week later to receive absolution).
3) Lots and lots of liturgical rationalism, definitely not the liturgical life a-la SJC. Don't forget that the Gallican liturgical reforms of the 18th century, as well as the Decrees of the Synod of Pistoia (1786), were among the models for the liturgical reforms of the 1950's and 1960's.
I forgot to mention that the Gallican and Pistoia liturgical reforms were inspired by the 18th-century Jansenists.
Why would anyone Catholic be "delighted" about the absence of Hymns? This idea is becoming too prevelant. Is it all due to Mosebach's personal dislike or preference?
Jeffrey -
Do you know if there is any plan to follow up with those priests who attended the program? It would be wonderful to know how many are singing a Latin Mass at the one, six, and twelve month point.
Even more important, how many of them will feel called to educate other priests? Imagine if each of these priests were to teach another fifty within the year - 2500 newly trained priests who could in turn teach another 12,500...
The work of St John Cantius and the CMAA might bear some pretty tremendous fruit.
"Why would anyone Catholic be "delighted" about the absence of Hymns? This idea is becoming too prevelant. Is it all due to Mosebach's personal dislike or preference?"
No, it's because the Mass has it's own proper music and much of the hymns that were historically part of it have been suppressed: the processions of the monastic usages, sarum etc., the proliferation of sequences, tropes, etc.
So the delight isn't at there not being hymns but at the fact that the proper music of the Mass is being performed rather than being substituted. More hymns can be added, but it's better not to take the proper music out and replace it with hymns.
ChuckC,
It's not actually another parish in town.
It's about 1.5 hours north of Chgo, in a town called Volo.
The name of the parish is St. Peter's, and Father Dennis Kolinski was named pastor.
Look for spectacular things to happen at that parish soon.
God bless Fr Kolinski!
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
Someone commented that there were no Mass aids for the Latin Novus Ordo. In fact in the back of the Church you can find the Booklet to participate in the Novus Ordo. It is fairly thin and has a red cover. There is also a Missalette which contains the propers that are chanted at Mass.
In my 18 years experience there, when the Mass is a chant mass that the people are familiar with, and Credo III is used, the congregation sings the chant quite strongly and well. Also, they also chant the Pater Noster and the simple responses in cases where a polyphonic Mass is used.
It's the best liturgical experience in Chicagoland hands down.
Tom
I'm quite certain that it is the best liturgical experience in the country -- at least I've not found a better case.
As for Mass aids, there are vast quantities. When we were there, there was a program for every event. The singing was strong even on weekdays.
Can anyone doubt that a Cluny-style revolution, on several fronts, is afoot?
God bless our Pope - may he live to nurture the sapling beyond harm's reach.
Eric,
I'm a Cantian of about 13 years.
Some of what "confounds" you once occurred to me, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the refusal to provide all sorts of aids, the refusal to give "introductions" to the liturgy and start things off with "Your cantor today is Josephine Schmickless, your presider is Fr. Snodgrass," rests on the assumption that people attending are old enough and smart enough to find out for themselves "how" to attend liturgies or they are children of caring parents who know how to find out and teach their children.
Sociologists tell us that organizations that expect a lot of their adherents are the ones that gain and hold committed members. If the threshold for belonging is virtually nonexistent, who wants to belong? And that just about describes what has happened at the typical parish in America today. There's perhaps a core of insiders who staff the parish council and other quasi-clerical activist "offices" (mostly carried out at least partly illicitly, though few of those active in this way realize they are doing things illicitly), but overall, parish commitment is a shadow of what it once was.
As another poster has noted, booklet Missals and other aids are available at the back, as are English-language misalettes for the English Masses. When they Adoremus Hymnal came out, the parish kept a supply at the back desks for use during Mass (e.g., for the basic Kyriale found in the AH), but they tended to "walk away." (Yes, it's sad to have to report that, but that's what happened.
For a while the Ordinary chants to be used that Sunday were printed in the bulletin, but that hasn't been done for a while. As another has noted, the Recessional hymn is usually printed in the bulletin, though the last few weeks, at least at the Ordinary Form Mass, an organ recessional has been employed.
I'm sure anyone at SJC who looks like he knows his way around the Gregorian Missal he's holding would be delighted to help any one who asked to find his way. Fr. Phillips gave thorough instructions in how to use the Tridentine Missal over a period of about 6 weeks on Wednesday evenings. There are resources on line. In other words, if one is able to put time into it, one can learn how to participate.
As I thought about this, I realized that the idea that one ought to be able to walk into a liturgical church and know how to participate readily never was taken for granted. I would never assume that if I attended an Eastern Rite liturgy. Historically, Catholic children were instructed in the "how" by their parents and/or over a period of several years in Catholic schools. No one ever even thought that it would not involve a significant amount of time and effort to learn the "how."
So where does the assumption come from? Perhaps from the leveling in the wake of Vatican II, when as we now know the liturgical revisors admit they were trying to realign the Roman liturgy with th
I don't know why, but my comment was cut off before the end (I know it was long, but, . . .)
Here's the rest of it:
So where does the assumption come from? Perhaps from the leveling in the wake of Vatican II, when as we now know the liturgical revisors admit they were trying to realign the Roman liturgy with the various Protestant liturgies. Perhaps even more so from the dominance of low church Protestantism in our culture, where all barriers to newcomers are supposed to be removed for evangelism purposes.
But they are evangelizing people to join their low-church ritual life. That's fine. That objective can be achieved easily. But if your firm believe is, as Catholic theology claims, that the liturgy is an earthly participation in the heavenly liturgy, with all the ceremony and hieratic language (not merely hieratic words but hieratic music and gesture and actions), then it's just not possible to make that immediately or even easily accessible. It has to have a certain degree of hurdle built in.
You may well agree with the preceding paragraph but wish that aids were present to help leap the hurdle. In many years of trying to help first time Solemn Mass observers (undergraduate students, post-Conciliar products all) prepare, I've discovered that Mass aids are not always all that helpful because they themselves need to be explained. In the hands of a paedagogue, a mentor, a Booklet Missal or Daily Roman Missal etc. can help a neophyte learn the ropes, but as a stand-alone introduction, they don't really help that much. The newcomer needs aids to help him understand the aids.
And above all, he needs the recognition that it will take weeks and months before he learns the ropes. He has to want to reach that point enough to invest the energy and effort. It goes faster with another human person helping but either way, whether studying the aids at home in advance (that's the only way it can be done if one is trying to teach oneself--you can't learn it all in the pew while at Mass) or with a mentor helping side-by-side, it takes time and requires motivation.
In some ways, it's best not to stick one's nose in the aids at the start. Perhaps study them apart from Mass to recognize the major segments and transitions, but in general, it's best at first to watch and become familiar with the overall ductus.
Standing, sitting, kneeling etc.--well, just follow the servers and the people around you. That's actually better at first than trying to learn that from a booklet because it relieves your mind of one among many possible distractions and complications.
So, don't give up. Next time you attend Mass at SJC, ask the guy next to you to help. Or ask one of the ushers if he can point you to someone who might be glad to help. The ushers know enough people who don't have six or eight children occupying whatever mental compoure they may have available, who know the Mass well and would be glad to assist someone else.
In fact in the back of the Church you can find the Booklet to participate in the Novus Ordo. It is fairly thin and has a red cover.
Perhaps the well-known Ignatius Press 16-page booklet
The Mass of Vatican II
http://www.ignatius.com/Images/P...ducts/mv2-
p.jpg
[search for "Vatican II"]
The inside front cover has the explanation
"This booklet is entitled The Mass of Vatican II because it contains the Novus Ordo Missae (New order of Mass) as promulgated by Pope Paul VI on Holy Thursday, April 3, 1969 -- but in the form clearly invisioned by the Fathers of the Council in the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium)."
Plus some pertinent quotes like the well-known side-splitters "Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." and "Therefore, other things being equal, [Gregorian chant] should be given pride of place in liturgical services."
The inside pages contain parallel Latin-English columns for the Ordinary, with a very nice and sacral non-ICEL English translation, but with only the Roman Canon for the E.P.
"The English translation used in this booklet is used with permission of CREDO, an organization of priests dedicated to promoting an accurate, faithful, and beautiful translation of liturgical texts. It has not been approved for liturgical use and is printed here only as an aid to understanding the Latin texts."
Apparently, at a Latin Novus Ordo one can provide any English translation he desires to be used by the people "only as an aid to understanding the Latin texts."
"For there is no question that this is where the Church is headed..."
Well, maybe if you think the church is headed to a situation where a parish has six priests and 15 novices studying liturgy, music and theology.
You note the confluence of orthodoxy and liturgy. While I'm sure SJC Parish has outreach to those in need, it's interesting that you did not mention that.
You describe a monastic or semi-monastic community: hardly the picture of the parish of tomorrow.
A parish with lauds, sext, vespers and compline? Let's try for a parish celebrating the hinge hours of morning and evening prayer - a good beginning!
Three masses each day? Well, there are six priests. Does SJC celebrate funerals? I presume they do. Do the regularly scheduled daly Masses get absorbed into funerals, or are there two celebrations of the Mass going on simultaneously?
Not really sure what Aplman is going with his/her comment -- but surely I don't have to explain that I did not mean that all parishes of the future will have precisely what SJC has but rather that SJC represents a new ideal for how Catholic liturgy will be practiced, who will be drawn to it, etc. as a source of energy. Oh, and excuse me for not mentioning Social Justice, a concept inexplicably left out of the Creed. But enough of that.
I want to say that the comments above by Cantian are just great. Whenever I assist people in their first experience of the EF, I always tell them to just forget about the Mass booklets and all the translations; rather they should just experience the Mass with their ears and ears and open their hearts. All this cognitive pedagogy really misses the point.
This is surely where the Church is headed. If we agree with Sacrosanctam Concilium that the sacred liturgy is the font and the summit of the Church's life, then it is through communities like SJC, celebrating the Liturgy with the mind of the Church, that her vitality continues, so that she can reach out to those in need.
During one of the liturgies at SJC this past week, an obviously homeless person, with all of his belongings in a shopping bag, came into the church and knelt at the communion rail to pray. He was clearly perfectly at home in this magnificent house of God amid the beauty and solemnity of the ritual.
My advice to anyone going to SJC:
1). If you attend the Latin Missa Normativa, get yourself a copy of Paraclete Press's Gregorian Missal; it has everything you'll need.
2). If it is a viable option, take the CTA "L". There is a station on Chicago Avenue, and the entrance is right in front of the funeral home across the street.
Do the regularly scheduled daly Masses get absorbed into funerals, or are there two celebrations of the Mass going on simultaneously?
Would this be thought good or bad?
Last June I was in St. Louis to attend Ab. Burke's traditional ordination of two new ICK priests. The next morning I arrived about an hour early for one of their first solemn high Masses, intending to say morning prayer beforehand. I was surprised to find 5 silent low Masses in progress -- St. Francis de Sales there has 3 side altars on each side of the high altar -- each celebrated by a visiting ICK priest with a single altar boy. They had started at slightly different times, so I was able to adore Our Lord at three separate double elevations within 10 minutes.
This was such a powerful experience that I recalled a statement attributed to Pope Benedict. Visiting Solesmes (as Cardinal Ratzinger), he had similarly observed 12 simultaneous low Masses. "Now that", he said, "is the Catholic Church."
I have been with Fr. Phillips and St. John's from the start and cannot begin to say how much I and my students owe this extraordinary church. But they are quite 'sui generis' and while a general model for the future of the Church, not, I think a suitable one in particulars. The problem with lack of participation is real and is mostly based in the size of the place -- you cannot sing or respond together at all well in such a large church with the altar well back from the nave. And the traditional rite that is celebrated there might be called the 'usus Phillipensis', there are so many oddities, large and small, in the rubrics. Finally, while I would never want to see the authorities ban the orchestral Masses, some of them would have been considered outrageous before the Council. Mozart and to a lesser extent Haydn I can deal with. But the St. Cecilia Mass of Gounod really does turn the liturgy in a comical direction -- at least that's the way I feel when the harps start in at the end of the Credo.
But these are affectionate cavils from an admiring fan of Fr. Phillips' achievement.
De gustibus non est disputandum. If indeed the Usus Antiquior returned, would not a certain range of "oddities" and quirks be unavoidable across the spectrum? The post-Tridentine reform sought to standardize and make uniform the Roman Rite to a degree never before known--for legitimate reasons in the face of the fracturing of western Christendom. But even within the highly uniform and meticulous rubrics, there was room for customs to grow up. It seems to me that the reforms under Pius XII and John XXIII were in part saying, okay, we can loosen up a bit on some of that now. It was hijacked, of course and turned in a very different direction, but if the Extraordinary form is to become a living, breathing, organic Usus again, which is clearly Benedict's goal, then I think some allowance for differences in taste and custom regarding music and even in ceremonial is permissible?
This is not to say that the Usus Cantianus is beyond criticism. The problem of posting the not-quite-1962 Missal and having it pointed out here and elsewhere is a helpful critique. But I do think the deeply devoted adherents of the extraordinary form need to guard against confusing one's own tastes and customs with what is required for rubrical legitimacy.
I think perhaps Fr. Phillips just really understands the proper organic development of the liturgy. After all, it's not as though the Missal of 1962 is frozen in time. Customs and practices should continue to develop as people worship.
I have attended SJC for about a year and a half now. In many ways my Catholicism has matured there. Particularly, it was SJC that led me to regular confession.
Eric - I can identify with your confusion over the different forms of the Mass. Because of my personal confusion I have decided to stop attending the Latin Novus Ordo because I found myself confused between that and the TLM.
In general I have decided that for me attending the Novus Ordo only in English and all Latin Masses will be TLM will reduce that confusion.
Yes, there can be confusion by some attendees of the TLM because it is after all not the common Mass that most people have attended for the last 40 years.
The liturgies at St. John Cantius are great. Father Phillips is a very good pastor. However, it is not beyond criticism and there can be a lack of pastoral and charitable actions and a sense of almost arrogance by some includng specific clergy. While most liturgies are great there are some priests who know the Extraordinary form better and are more articulate and better with Latin. There could be some more courtesty and generosity and charity practiced by some.
These complaints are...intriguing. They certainly miss the forest for the trees.
Would that the main problem with Catholic music were too much harp at the credo!
"While most liturgies are great there are some priests who know the Extraordinary form better and are more articulate and better with Latin."
Why yes, indeed and of course. This was always true, even in the "old days" (or so I am told, having not experienced them, and so I know as a historian anyway). What's remarkable is that some of the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius handle the Latin so well. Others do so minimally. It's always been that way. The Church has never expected that every single priest handles Latin and chant impeccably.
I'm not scolding or fussing about this criticism. As I noted before, the Usus Cantianus is not above criticism and constructive criticism I'm sure is welcomed by the priests and brothers.
I do however, wish to second Jeffrey Tucker's last comment, only applied to Latinity--if only the only complaint we had about the vernacular Novus Ordo were that some priests mispronounced a few English words now and then and that some priests were less at home with English than others. If one thinks about it that way, it puts the "problems" with St. John Cantius in a very different light.
"There could be some more courtesy and generosity and charity practiced by some."
Yes indeed. Last I checked none of the priests claimed perfection in holiness. But having known many of them and received spiritual counsel from them, they put me, at least, to shame. When I by God's grace reach a degree of charitable living that even approximates that of those who lead this parish, I will sing a Te Deum or two and thank God for permitting me to learn to love him better.
If one truly has been injured unjustly by a brother Christian then, according to Mt. 18, the appropriate thing do (as in any friendship or marriage), is to speak to the offender charitably, as a fellow Christian. No genuine follower of Christ wishes to offend against his brother by being arrogant or uncharitable. But often what I perceive as uncharitableness toward me from a fellow Christian may not in fact be such. Getting it out in the open, most counselors will say, is the first step toward clarifying from both sides just how uncharitable it was or was not.
So, again, I do not want to dismiss whatever negative experiences someone may have had at this or any other parish. I do not, however, believe lack of charity is any more characteristic of the priests at St. John Cantius than any other parish (and since this thread has to do with what is characteristic there, asserting lack of charity and arrogance implies that it is characterically present there). I'm sure than any one of them would want to be the first to know when an action he has done has seemed uncharitable to another.
As another poster has pointed out, on a few occasions I've received a sharp rebuke in confession but each time I suddenly realized, "for goodness sake, of course that was far worse than you were admitting to yourself; thank God for that priest's
My last comment was truncated and I don't have time to try to reconstruct it; even though I saved the entire text, it got lost from my clipboard while trying to repost it.
I realized that in fairness to the priests of St. John Cantius, I need at least to conclude the thought at which my posting broke off: the few instances where I encountered an unexpectedly sharp assessment of my sins (and immediately realized that the priest did me a service by pointing out how I was misreading myself) are outweighed 10 to 1 by experiences of surprising (to me) gentleness and mercy in the confessional at SJC. All of which only underscores the wisdom of aural confession to another: none of us can "read" ourselves by ourselves as well as we can read ourselves in response to another's discernment of ourselves.
Of course, the instances of arrogance and uncharitableness that Robert had in mind most likely were outside the confessional. In such cases, then Christian charity according to Mt. 18 asks us to charitably point such an offense out to the offender. Marriage counselors and other counselors likewise insist on the importance of, charitably, getting such offenses out in the open. The act of considering doing so already helps us determine whether in fact the offender really offended or whether we wrongly felt offended. In any case, I'm sure the fathers at SJC would want to know where they, after deliberation, have been thought to have been uncharitable.
Finally, I noted that my initial reaction upon reading Jeffrey Tucker's original posting about SJC was, "well, as a first time visitor, he of course doesn't see the warts and blemishes those of us long-timers see." I even considred commenting along those lines but thought better of it.
This is not to dismiss the concerns raised by others on this thread. It is, however, to put it in perspective: would that the Church's only problems were the sort of warts invisible to first timers but apparent to long-timers at St. John Cantius. If those were the only liturgical and pastoral problems we faced in the Church at large, we could all sing a Te Deum Laudamus from the housetops of Chicago at the top of our lungs until we exhausted our voices and collapsed in paroxysms of joy.
Or so it seems to me. Ad multos annos, Fr. Phillips! And may St. John Cantius in heaven intercede mightily for continued blessings to carry on as he has begun.
Reading the discourse on the "problems" of SJC, I'm reminded of something I've realized recently. Here on TLM we like to complain and moan about the liturgy and every little minutia that bothers us - from GIA hymnals to priests who wear Gothic chausibles. And yet, to paraphrase Cantian, if only parish problems were limited to the liturgy! As an example, I've been brought up to date on the sad state of my mom's parish. It was once the largest in the city, and now it's down to 50 people per Sunday. And the deacon is on a campaign to SHUT DOWN a SOUP KITCHEN. A volunteer free soup kitchen. And he has been abusive (quite literally - screaming and insults) towards members of the soup kitchen. And the priest is too enfeebled to reign him in (if he even has the will to).
Now, I'm no fan of this parish's liturgy. The priest likes to add in his own "theology" into the Mass and preaches borderline disobedient sermons. And yet.. isn't that small bones compared to the horrible deacon? At my parish, my boss and I are frequently confounded as to how to help the liturgy, and yet it's a wonderful parish. The people are good and Christian, big on service, there's no pro-abortion or "Voice of the Faithful" people there. They just don't like Catholic liturgy it seems. If only every parish had all its woes limited to the liturgy!
I meant "NLM", not "TLM"!
Mea culpa for opening this can of proverbial worms,
BUT
these issues--not just those of SJC--but of the entire church which have been tearing apart my soul for years, especially as one 'working' within the Church for nearly two decades.
I humbly only speak of my own experience at SJC. Since I recently retired from being a church musician, I've had the opportunity to attend more liturgies at SJC which has prompted some larger questions beyond rubric wars.
Some of these confounding issues (not just about SJC--but about what liturgical renewal now means Post Summorum Pontificum)
1) A bi-ritual parish. I asked before in a post: How do you reconcile the calendar? One day it's Christ the King but just Ordinary Time for those Novus Ordo folks. Since I try to be as faithful to the Divine Office as I am able, this leaves me completely at a loss--and I wouldn't even begin to dream of praying the Office in Latin since the prayer is intense enough even when I completely pretend to understand the English language.
2) For 31 years, love it or leave it, I have been formed by the Novus Ordo. It is the complete source, summit, and salvation of my Christian life. I hear stories of so many faithful feeling that the religion was taken away from them Post Vatican II. In a small way, I feel that I'm being told that something was wrong with Catholicism for the past 40 years. For me, I AM still waiting for the reform of that reform.
3) The two issues that aren't addressed are: a) poor education/expectation/training of priests b) ignorance of the laity. Mozart Masses are fine--Baroque vestments are fine--Unfurling flags (a first time sight for me at SJC) during the consecration are fine (???)---but without education most Catholics are content with the status quo. My parents (born in 1942) still complain when Mass is longer than 50 minutes and from reading I understand that most Catholics were content with a quick and dirty Low Mass. A groundswell of a spiritual revolution of the laity and uninspired priests must begin today!
4) SJC is doing amazing things--most especially in the 'performance' of major liturgical musical works. And it is a meet and right thing to hold them up for all of their holy work. However, they must not be held up as the ideal. Let's have discussions about
a) what the Summorum Pontificum really means (is it for the sake of unity? is it a gentle reminder of its validity not withstanding its practice? is it a point of reference for the Novus Ordo, given as an example of noble liturgy?)
b) what does this mean for parochial life (i'm talking the suburbs--or the exurbs--or out in the middle of nowhere)?
c) pastoral sensitivity for all--insert a couple of different words and phrases from those arguments from 'liturgists' who chided Latin for the past 40 years and I distinctly hear some of the same arguments now posted by those proponents of the Latin Mass.
d) for once and for all, we need a rubric round-up. the point of rubrics is not for personal interpretation. when we defy the rubrics, we only add to the current confusion of the Church. the argument that one understands the rubrics and the development so well that they may tinker is invalid--no one on this earth fully understands this--that belongs to the identity of the Mystical Body of Christ. and as for cultural developments and paraliturgical celebrations? the Church has wisely always allowed for their place but might I suggest that the Unity Candle (holding back swearing) is one of these aberrations? would you like to see that as a permanent part of the wedding rite one day?
Enough for this morning---I fear I may pull a Marie Osmond if I type more.
And I’m not into self-promotion, but I would like to continue some of these discussions at my blog (click below.) I’m open to suggestions to get some good Christian dialogue going.
St. John of Capistrano, ora pro nobis.
E
Eric,
Regarding the problem of two calendars, well, it is a problem, as Benedict himself noted. His goal, long-term, is apparently to modify slightly the 1962 Calendar by adding some of the most important new canonizations. But that will still leave two calendars. The pragmatic solution for the individual is to choose one or the other and follow it. I've followed one for several years, then the other and learned from both. I admit, however, that I don't try to do the whole Divine Office daily. For someone who does, choose one and follow it. In practice, the divine office at SJC follows the new calendar and uses the revised Office. The old calendar functions primarily for those parishioners who are committed to the Extraordinary Form. Feast days where only one Mass/Liturgy is permitted (Holy Thursday, Good Friday are always done according to the Ordinary Form. For feast days that are the same in both calendars the major (usually evening) Mass is often but not always Extraordinary but the Ordinary form, usually in English, is available at one of the other Masses of the holiday.
So, no, it's not perfect or seamless, but it works. I think that's what some posters mean when the say, here's a model where the two forms (not really bi-ritual, though Fr. Phillips has faculties in Byzantine Rite as well and originally the Canons Regular hoped to be biritual but what would now be called bi-form became the charism for the order) live together side-by-side, enriching each other as Benedict envisions, only SJC has been doing it for nearly 20 years.
One can see the two calendars as an insurmountable or at least large problem (glass half empty) or as an enrichment side-by-side (glass half full).
I have to confess that I do not understand the difficulty you see with education at St. John Cantius. The education program is immense and broad, from Latin and Greek classes to CCD, first Communion preparation, convert instruction of various forms from individual to group classes but not a formal RCIA program) to a variety of informal adult education programs. The children's choir is at the same time a formation and education program even if it didn't start out that way. The summer boys' camps and so on and so forth.
No, the parish does not have a large social justice outreach but it has very active pro-life outreach (which is social justice if anything is). But in this regard, who says every parish has to do every apostolate? That never was true of Catholic parishes. The charism given to St. John Cantius providentially (no one sat down and thought it up; Fr. Phillips did not come to the parish with a grand design in mind, he just pastored and the vision grew bit by bit) is one of liturgical renewal but far more than liturgical renewal--a general renewal of Catholic life and culture. It has many foci and lacks some that other parishes have, but the one thing clear is that it is vibrant and far-ranging even if not absolutely com
I don't understand why my comments keep getting cut short. Here's the rest of what I had written and was in the combox when I clicked "Publish":
It has many foci and lacks some that other parishes have, but the one thing clear is that it is vibrant and far-ranging even if not absolutely comprehensive of all possible apostolates (name a parish that is!).
The full scope of this will only be apparent if one is fully immersed in the parish life. From your description, you drop in regularly, which is fine, wonderful. But as with any institution or group, the full scope of what it does (and fails to do) becomes visible only after long-term immersion in depth.
No one knows what percentage of parishioners or of the larger circle of people who consider themselves parishioners elsewhere but attend SJC once or more a month are formerly lapsed Catholics who came back to the faith because of the particular charism of this parish and of the Canons Regular of SJC. But it is sizeable--perhaps 25%, perhaps more. At one time it may have been much higher, but as the reputation of the parish has spread, more and more cradle, never-lapsed young Catholics have made it their parish. Of the "old-timers" I know--those who were attracted to it before I arrived 13 years ago, those who started coming when attendance was in the dozens rather than the thousands, a suprising number were reverts. It played that role significantly in the early and mid-1990s. Today it is, as I noted, becoming more and more a place where young Catholic families wish to raise their children.
I think that everyone involved at some level in leadership at SJC would cheer the day when SJC is no longer unusual, when every other parish in the suburbs and the cities is like SJC in some ways (not an exact copy, for goodness sake, no one is advocating that). May that day come sooner rather than later. But for nearly 20 years, this parish has been a beacon, at first only faintly discernible across the devastated landscape of the Amchurch, slowly becoming better known over the last ten years, and then exponentially more visible with the publication of Summorum Pontificum and also, one must note, with the rise of blogs like NLM and Fr. Zuhlsdorf's WDTHPRS.
Again, I do not with to praise SJC uncritically and its clergy would be the first to welcome constructive criticism. I just don't quite see where education is lacking at this parish
My finger pointing in terms of education is toward the Church (not at SJC) and the over idealization of an attitude of 'start doing the Latin Mass or begin incorporating Gregorian chant propers or celebrate ad orientem' and all shall be well. This is not the year 874. The laity are highly educated and literate and I find in most parish experiences that fortunately and often unfortunately the laity are encouraged and expected to ask why? and how?
A small finger pointing bit at SJC in terms of music: I wish that they would print all musical selections including motets with translations in the bulletin. This could also include titles for organ preludes. Yes, I know I can find them other places but in the bulletin would be rather helpful and a formation experience. 2007 has blessed us with ease of technological production in this matter.
Last Sunday I was shocked when the fine organist procured as of late launched into the Reubke---one of the most technically challenging and evocative pieces in the organ rep---and the majority of the congregation ran for the doors. Perhaps a short description in the bulletin would go a long way in most Catholic's appreciation of the organ and choral music--the Protestants do have a one up on us in this regard.
And yes, maybe it's not fair to comment on SJC when I'm not there all of the time--but I've served many parishes of many flavors over time and I'm pretty savvy--and that's my point: If I'm left scratching my head what is Joe Schmoe parishioner doing?
Maybe my bigger point is that Catholic's need to claim their share in the priesthood of all believers---live up to what is promised in the Sacrament of Baptism and proceeds forth in Confirmation--a cultural change rooted in faith, hope, and charity.
Eric,
I didn't know it was "the Reubke" and if I had known, it would not have made much difference. I knew it was highly challenging organ work. I'm fairly well educated musically, can sight read etc. But printing the name Ruebke in the bulletin would not have made much difference. That it's "The Reubke" for you indicates something, I think. To you it's a musical known quantity, to the point that it merit "The Reubke" as a shorthand label for those in the know. You wish everyone else knew how significant it is. But significant to whom and how? Does it need to be significant as "The Reubke" to all or would it be enough that it signified to most people, "big-time, high-level organ playing"? I don't think I'm the only person who noticed an uptick in the organ repertoire long before we learned through the grapevine that the new organist had joined the brothers. We couldn't have named the repertoire, but we noticed the difference.
Yes, it would be good if people remained in the pews until it was over. Some did. Some of us were making our Thanksgiving, which is even more important than The Reubke. But we made our Thanksgivings against the background of The Reubke and I, for one, noted the beauty and power of the music. Still, my primary focus was on the Tabernacle and the Mission Crucifix as I made my Thanksgiving. Then, I'll admit it, I left before The Reubke was quite complete (I had reasons, but yes, I could have stayed to the end). Yet, as I left the pewe, I was certainly not oblivious to The Reubke.
Some, I'm sure, were mostly oblivious. I doubt that anyone did not at least notice that something special was being played, even if they had no idea it was technically challenging. They just knew it was glorious. Some of them appreciated it even as they left, I'm sure. Would it have been better had that sat there and listened? Probably.
When a recessional hymn is sung, more people stay at least through several verses, though few stay through all verses of a long recessional hymn. I noticed that people leave more quickly with an organ recessional. They don't perceive it the same way as a choral recessional. Yes, one could try to educate them about this. But I'm far more concerned about how few stay to make any sort of Thanksgiving, though, I suppose, some might say that they did that after returning from the Communion rail.
(continued)
Certainly these and the other things you point out can be addressed by education. But I do think you need to recognize that you approach this as a professional church musician, while for most, the music at Mass is not the Reubke or the Haydn or the Mozart. They do recognize beauty. After Mass on Oct. 14 a number of the cradle Catholics in my circle had no idea about who wrote the setting, but their first comment was "wasn't that a beeeeeaaaautiful Mass"--with emphasis. They can't describe or explain the components of the Mass but they do recognize and appreciate from their hearts the difference it makes in their worship of God.
I think the professionals and the amateur experts in rubrics and music of the Mass need to recognize that they are the ones, along with the priests and servers who have to know their parts well, carry them out with all the energy and skill they possess to bring about worship fitting for our God. The "public" at a theater production don't realize exactly how much detail and care goes into bringing off a complex production. But they do recognize the beauty or power of the outcome.
The Mass is not a theatre production but it is a highly choreographed drama (simply because that's necessary to carry out a highly complex teamwork), the drama of the Sacrifice of Christ taking place in heaven and earth at the same time. A few parishioners are close enough to the clergy or have servers or have served in the past to know something of the detail and complexity that goes into each Solemn High Mass at SJC. But most people don't realize what you realize as a professional musician. The task of the singers, musicians, clergy and servers is to make seem effortless because that helps make it magnificent and worthy of our God. Even if the average parishioner doesn't realize just how much goes into it, most realize that an awful lot goes into and they do appreciate the overall effect.
Would it be better if more understood more of the details? Certainly. But a lot of them already understand quite a bit and those who don't, for the most part, probably won't learn a lot more. Both the more knowledgeable and less knowledgeable have always been understood to be capable of faithful, fervent, devout assistance at Mass. The Liturgical Movement sought to improve that education process and as I mentioned previously, SJC has had classes for those interested, a lot of parishioners bring hand missals and follow them. I would place it right square in the center of the Liturgical Movement as it was developing before the Council, as one of the most authentic continuations of that Movement despite the hijacking of the movement in the 1970s. In that sense, education is taking place at a significant level. But not, perhaps, at the ideal level that a professional liturgical musician might wish for.
Cantian,
Oh, the lack of inflection in typing. Hasn't anyone figured that out yet? I fear my last point was lost. At any rate, I will stop posting here for a bit---especially after being banned for a couple of hours earlier today.
My last of not very noble thoughts: Is there wisdom in the parish system? Should we be attending our actual parishes? I tried--God save me--at St. Helen's. Charitably, the bingo is great. (Reminds me of one of my favorite parish stories: My home parish hosted a remarkably awful and unrehearsed Confirmation. After the liturgy, the bishop was asked how things went. He said, "Well, the lemons were good.")
I'll carry on more at my simple little blog. You can see my mug over there so the next time I look confused at SJC, your friendly face may give me some encouragement.
Thanks for the conversation.
E
P.S. I don't even like the Reubke!
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