Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
What seems especially nice about Msgr. Marini's comments is that he provides a solid liturgical explanation for each one of these changes. Unlike what we have seen in the past, they are change for the sake of change, or to satisfy a whim of either Benedict XVI or Marini. They are intended to return to a complete, if complex, understanding of how each piece of the tradition fits together. Let us hope that liturgists around the Church are paying careful, and respectful, attention.
Wonderful news indeed! The way Msgr. Marini put the explination of the posture at mass is very well .
These changes make a lot of sense (although the Urbi et Orbi would allow for wearing a long Mantum because no procession is involved).
I would actually hope for a further change. In the last years the Gospel was sung from a medieval manuscript from the Vatican Library - at least this was claimed. In fact, the manuscript in question (a quite famous missal of Alexander VI) does not contain the gospel of the Midnight Mass at all, so probably a print-out was merely put between its pages. I actually regard this as 'cheating' and therefore quite unworthy of the occasion. If the Deacon is able to sing the Gospel from a manuscript they should choose one of the many other missals or gospel books they have in the Vatican Library, otherwise they should use a modern printed edition.
Some of us had hoped that the fanon would appear again on the shoulder of the Holy Father. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case.
But, we are grateful for the restoration of some many other liturgical elements in the papal liturgies.
Looking at that photo, the reigh of Pius XII, the ceremonies he officiated at, and the Church in general during his time in Rome and elsewhere must have been awesome.
My Grandfather, when studying in Rome in the late 1940's and early 1950's as an exchange student from Japan in Rome (where my Dad was born in 1949), took dozens of reels of film of every day life in Rome. Some of it is not very outstanding quality (it's over 55 yrs. old now), and it would be a waste to transfer to dvd, but some 20 reels we had transfered to dvd. There's about 20 min. of Pius XII giving his Sunday blessing (1950), Pius XII on Easter Sunday (1949), canonization of Pius X (1954), about 45 min. of film coverage, proclamation of the Assumption by Pius XII (1950), about 30 min., and about 3 hrs. worth of other Papal events of Pius XII between 1948-1955 (when my Granddad and family moved first to D.C., and then to L.A. where I was born, in 1979).
Several of the reels show dozens (literally) of Italian Orders of nuns in Piazza St. Pietro and on the streets of Rome, in really awesome habits. The variety is staggering.
There's even nuns in deep red habits and black veils, and in blue with white scapulars. There's hundreds of tonsured friars caught on film, and I recognize the Dominicans, Trinitarians, Franciscans (especially bearded Capuchins who must have been very numerous in Rome back in the late 1940's early 1950's), Carmelites, and seminarians in a variety of soutanes. Red were the Germans, but there are also shots of USA sems. at the North American College (the old building in 1949), and purple cassocked seminarians from I don't know where.
I thought of making dvd's and selling them on e-bay, but the quality is only about 80% on most of them, and some have scratches visible for the whole run of the sequence. Not badly, just enough to be annoying.
No sound of course, but lost of shots of the great Pius XII at his Sunday window, in Piazza St. Pietro,, on the balcony, and visiting St. Paul-Outside-the-Walls and San Giovanni in Laterano during Holy Year 1950.
One very rare shot my granddad taped was Pius XII arriving at a monument during Lent, 1950 called "Scala Sancta" in Rome. A crowd is cheering the great Pope as he stands at the door of what appears to be a flight of marble steps. It's a 10 min. shot, but I've never heard of any other Pope visiting the "Scala Sancta" in Rome since.
It all seems like a tactic of the Holy Father and Msgr. Marini that probably is necessary to a degree more or less: Not too much all at once but a little here and a little there.
Epiphany fiddleback but no antique mitre or cope for the urbi et orbi... Ad orientem for the Baptism of the Lord but most likely not with a fiddleback.
But anyway, you never know when the pope will spring a surprise on us! Perhaps the nice camauro to go along with the ermine trimmed mozetta on Christmas Day...
Re. Kenjiro Shoda's mention of purple cassocked seminarians: these are probably students of the Pontifical Scots College who wore (and occasionally still wear) a bluish-purple cassock with red buttons and fascia.
Hopefully the Holy Father will use Midnight Mass to offer the Gregorian Rite in public, perhaps for the first time in public as Pontiff.
We can pray for this.
If Benedict XVI is copying Pius XII, that's great.
But if it's a concession to those who last year hurled cat-calls , boos, and insults from liberal circles about the return of such "pre-Vatican II" vesture etc., then it's very discouraging, verging on tragic.
Well, I must say, I'm rather pleased with these changes. Particularly the return to choir dress for the Urbi et Orbi and the use of the Roman chasuble, though, I really do wish the pianete would be used more often i.e. the Diocese of Milan.
RipK,
I wouldn't count out the return of the fanon just yet. We'll see what happens on Epiphany...
Dan,
One can always pray, and it is indeed good to do so, but on the purely human level, it seems not a terribly reasonable hope!
A great deal of planning, training and certain other hurdles need to be surmounted for that to occur, and the midnight Mass wouldn't be the likely venue for it given the context of the papal liturgy in the usus antiquior.
It would be more likely to consider something like this happening in the context of Summorum Pontificum, something relevant to the Ecclesia Dei Commission or communities, etc.
But I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
Gregorian Rite for Midnight Mass in St. Peter's? Get out of your dream world.
An English translation of the interview available here: http://www.massinformation.org/
2...christmass.html
My prediction for 2009 ?
I think the Pope will see the need to "send a message" to the world that Summorum Pontificum is to be taken seriously. This motu proprio changed everything. Permanently. The "old" Mass has been brought back into the heart of the Church's public worship.
Do I think Pope Benedict will celebrate it ? Possibly, but probably not. It is more likely there will at some date soon be an old Mass celebrated coram Pontifice.
Where ? I really wouldn't like to guess.
Brick by brick, Deo gratias.
I don't know the term, but I believe in 2009 Benedict XVI will attend a Tridentine Latin Mass, sitting on his throne while a priest or bishop actually says the Mass. Thus, the Pope won't actually be saying the Tridentine Mass, but will be following it (presiding) from the throne.
Also, I would not be surprised if the Pope rules this year coming two things :
1) the end of Communion in the Hand.
2). strongly suggests (or even mandates), that the Tridentine Latin Mass be said at a convenient time every Sunday, in every parish....not to surplant the NO, but for the TLM to return to it's rightful place in the heart of the Church.
Was it common in the past for Popes to give the Urbi et Orbi in Choir dress, or was it something only Pius XII did?
Are you people nuts? If all those good things happened in 2009, we could pretty well close up shop here on the interweb.
If only the American Bishops would follow the Holy Fathers lead...Oremus
Step by step. So the reform of the reform can flow in the church from head to toes.
You know how priests are used to think: "If the pope does it, I will do the same", in Italy we say: "each parish priest is bishop and pope in his own parish". Usually this sentence is a joke when a priest is a bit bossy, but in this case, if many priests are willing to follow Benedict liturgical example, I hope the sentence will turn to be true in a good sense.
Could I make a further comment ?
I of course applaud the Pope's decision to celebrate once again Mass ad orientem in the Sistine Chapel.
On this occasion I hope they will not site flowers at the centre, directly in front of the Crucifix. It looks wrong, and is a distraction from the liturgical action. The celebrant is bowing to the Cross and/or the altar, not to the flowers on the gradine.
A minor point, perhaps, but I wanted to mention it.
A' propos of the mozzetta, the Pope does have a white damask mozzetta edged with ermine, with the corresponding white damask camauro, edged with ermine; these were a gift of a private gentleman, and made by Gammarelli, the famous Roman ecclestical tailor since the late XVIII c.
The white damask mozzetta was worn from Easter to Saturday in Albis, and was connected with the simbology of Resurrection and the new man.
Benedict XVI has worn it last Easter, and lked it so much he wore it until Pentecost actually, thus creating a new precedent.
I suggest that the photograph presented may not be Christmas but Easter, as the Pope would have worn the usual red velvet mozzetta at Christmas; actually in the Cappella for the Vigil in the Sixtine, if I remember correctly, he wore the red velvet cappa magna, like a cardinal's, but with a longer train and in velvet, which was a material reserved exclusively for the Pope.
The late and much regretted Fr. Quoex, the great liturgist and "maestro di color che sanno" in all points of liturgical history, used to say that in Rome even the greca collar had to be of silk and not velvet.
Dear Maurizio,
if you read the post again you will find that it says Easter, not Christmas. The reappearance of the white Easter mozzetta was duly noted and welcomed in several posts on the NLM, cf. e.g. http://www.newliturgicalmovement...-return-
of.html or http://www.newliturgicalmovement...gy-of-
word.html
Usually, people forget to mention the shoes. The Popes also used to wear white shoes along with the white mozzatta and the white camauro. Is there a picture of the present pontiff wearing these white shoes?
I pray that in 2009 we may see a great pilgrimage organized by Traditional Catholics in the United States, to our great National Shrine in Washington DC - where a Solemn Pontifical Mass might be offered on the beautiful High Altar of the Upper Church - as we have seen offered at Westminster Cathedral, Chartres and elsewhere. A fitting occasion might be either July 7th or September 14th. Wouldn't it be great if Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos would himself offer it. I'm actually very surprised that no group has discussed this and no effort has been made to make this a reality one day.
the city and the world will see a very heavy lace rochet
Any word on the Papal liturgical attire for Midnight Mass?
I'm going to try and stay up for the Midnight Mass from St. Peter's, so I can see what the Holy Father will be wearing!
He might surprise us, indeed....
It is true that the Pope liturgically only made use of the white mozzetta from Easter to Low Sunday; but we must also remember that Pius XII, who was extremely affected by the cold, invented for himself an all ermine white mozzetta, which he wore only for the sake of protection from cold. Thus that picture could very well have been from Christmas
I believe I already said the picture is of the Easter Urbi et Orbi 1952, which is what the Corbis Caption says, so there is really no need to guess. In any case, the purpose of the picture was just to illustrate that it is not untraditional for the Pope to wear choir dress at the Urbi et Orbi blessing.
Another article (L'Osservatore Romano):
"Le novità liturgiche nei riti natalizi presieduti dal Papa"
http://www.vatican.va/news_servi...uo/
text.html#20
or
http://paparatzinger2-blograffae...a-le-
novit.html
JGKester,
I believe what Gregor says is correct. That is the real mozzetta. The other piece of vestment that Pius XII had made for himself looks different and it is all open in front, except for a bottom or clip at the very top to hold it in place (and it was smaller).
Irishgirl: "He might surprise us, indeed...."
I hope so but I don't think so. I think that if Don Guido is telling us specifically the various details of the next Papal Liturgies, then that is all we will see for now, and nothing more.
I would love to be wrong, though. In fact, some of the papal liturgical changes were not announced at all (for example the introduction of the ferula of Pius IX, or kneeling for communion). Well, lets just wait and see.
I hope Mgr Guido won't screw a candlestick into the back of the medieval crucifix in the Sistine like he did the last time.
Also, I'm very confused: surely the 1962 usage is the "John XXIII" one, with trendy BXVI amendments. Is there any such thing as a "Gregorian" rite?
according today's interview of l'Osservatore Romano with Don Guido the chasuble, which the pontiff will wear on epiphany belonged to Pope Montini. Unfortunately there is no word about the paraments for the Midnight Mass. It would be nice to see a splendid set of Tridentinum.
WOW! It may be the chasuble then that Paul VI wore at his coronation!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/
2..._74905ad570.jpg
Mmm... Just guessing, but remember that splendid set the Holy Father wore at the Sydney Cathedral? It was heard that this set was taken to the Vatican because the Pope liked it very much. Maybe at Midnight Mass... Maybe...
Ripk10,
The vestments used at Paul VI's coronation were the same ones used at the Coronation of Bl. John XXIII. However, if it's the chasuble that matches Paul VI's coronation mitre, which did belong to him while he was Archbishop of Milan, it'll be a masterpiece.
GandhianCatholic:
you are referring to the famous mitre that Paul VI wore during his coronation Mass in June 1963. This mitre originally belonged to Cardinal Achille Ratti. It was given to him by the Archdiocese of Milano when he was an Archbishop there. As it was customary at the time, Cardinal Ratti brought the precious mitre to Rome for the 1922 conclave. When Ratti elected Pope (Pius XI), the mitre stayed in the Vatican. It was used during various festive occasions. Years later, Pope Pius XII gave the mitre as a gift to Giovanni Battista Montini, when he appointed him Archbishop of Milano. Thus, the precious mitre returned to Lombardy. Cardinal Montini brought the mitre back to Rome for the 1963 conclave. When Cardinal Montini elected Pope, he chose to wear it during the procession at his coronation Mass. He also used it at least one more time during the early years of his pontificate. It would be awesome if this historic mitre “got discovered” by Msg. Guido Marini in the Vatican Sacristy, and makes an appearance after 45 years. It is intrically connected to three Popes. It would be a strong statement of liturgical continuity.
http://hallowedground.wordpress....f-pope-paul-vi/
Jim Swinne wrote:
"What seems especially nice about Msgr. Marini's comments is that he provides a solid liturgical explanation for each one of these changes. Unlike what we have seen in the past, they are change for the sake of change, or to satisfy a whim of either Benedict XVI or Marini. They are intended to return to a complete, if complex, understanding of how each piece of the tradition fits together. Let us hope that liturgists around the Church are paying careful, and respectful, attention."
)(
Jim, unfortunately, they are listening and seeing but flat out couldn't care less and will continue with the silly P. Marini-related nonsense. Trust me, my parish included!
=====
Ryan Ellis wrote:
"Are you people nuts? If all those good things happened in 2009, we could pretty well close up shop here on the interweb."
)(
Why is it wrong to hope for any of this in 2009? More than likely not but never give up hope.
I do wish, however, there were indications of something more concrete than the Holy Father just doing what he does. It's well and good and am glad he is but, but it does nothing to translate itself into the regular life of the Church save those who happen to wish to embrace Tradition and rectify the nonsense which has been trust upon us all since Reformations of Vatican II.
It made me think of Kenjiro's descriptions of his dad's home movies. All those interesting habits of those religious orders and their members now don't even exist because or the false and rash interpretations of Vatican II which pretty much killed vocations for at least the following two generations afterward.
Oops. Forgot.
A blessed and MERRY CHRISTMAS, EVERYONE.
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