Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
A solemn and majestic celebration conducted in Latin, except of the readings. The Holy Father is wearing a magnificent cape made by Tridentium, and a new golden mitre with traditional embroidery. Very beautiful!
Amazing. It gets better every liturgical year...
Could someone explain why the deacons incensed the altar together as they did instead of the Holy Father?
Yes, this practice is fine but unusual. What is the reason for it?
This question about the incensation of the altar at the Magnificat again?! Perhaps one of the team of contributors here could write a piece on the practice of the deacon's incensing the altar at the Magnificat. I would greatly appreciate it as it might prevent this question coming up every single time the Pope presides at Solemn Vespers.
I know it is permitted - and don't be surprised if it is somehow related to the fact that we have an octogenarian Pope, as healthy as he is, who would have had to ascend and descend all those steps three seperate times (if he were to conduct the incensations at the Magnificat) instead of two. The practice of the two deacons doing this is alot better than no incensations taking place, as Archbishop Piero Marini did when John Paul II's health began to decline.
Would anyone know who those men in the ugly yellowish cowls are?
(Monks? The cowl looks so untraditional I find it difficult to believe.)
A splendid cope, indeed.
Correct me, but isn't there only just one incensation at Vespers, during the Magnificat? The Orthodox routinely have two deacons doing this censing at Vespers.
On another note, why isn't the Papal Throne traditionally in front of the Altar of the Chair (where it was for centuries)? For the past few decades it has been placed in every conceivable corner of St. Peter's.
The Spirit of the Liturgy by then Cardinal Ratzinger can bring light in to your question Nick.
Again, I think that the 2 deacons with incense is part of the Ambrosian rite.
There seems to have been such a large migration of liturgical texts from the Sacramentaries of Milan, and elsewhere, into the Roman Rite in recent years (take the ICEL prayers of the faithful, for example), now perhaps the Roman Rite is adopting Ambrosian performative liturgy. The proposed shift in the Sign of Peace would be another example.
Not a bad thing - just not a Roman thing.
I'm curious about the two deacons at the Magnificat, too. Is it an innovation or is there a Roman precedent.
(Being a teacher, I don't mind answering or asking the same questions from year to year.)
From what I've been told, I think Emilio has it right: The Pope does not want to go up and down the stairs repeatedly, which would also cause unnecessary delays in the Liturgy.
The unvested altar is disappointing.
Yes, Father, I think Emelio is right, but that doesn't explain two deacons; one could do it. Is there a precedent for two, is it an aesthetic decision because of the size of the Basilica, is it defended as organic growth that will be part of papal ceremonies only, ... ?
I wonder if the religious in cowls are monks from Mariawald, recalling the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem who filled these roles last year (or the year before?).
From what I can see in the screencaps, those cowls look remarkably like cowls made according to the specifications of the traditional Trappist usages. I just had a look at the 1926 edition (I don't have access to the most recent edition, that is, the one Mariawald just went back to, but I'm certain that the form of the habit wasn't changed in it) : sleeves 1 metre in circumference, and the body of the garment approximately 130 cm at an unspecified point under the arms. There are no pictures of them "in ceremony" (which means with arms at the sides, which is the posture Trappists should have, contrary to Benedictines, when standing in church outside a choirstall) so I can't see if the sleeves are the correct length, 30 cm below the knees). Of course, when acting as ministers, in accord with monastic tradition and the same usages, they really ought to be vested in amices, albs and cinctures, but had they been so attired, somebody would have been bound to grumble about that too.
Unfortunately the cerimoniere to the right of His Holiness (today Monsignore Francesco Camaldo) is still wearing this ugly surplice. What a contrast to the beautiful lace of Monsihnore Marini and the splendid paraments of the vespers .
Canon Ward's disappointment was matched by a number of us. It seems Tridentinum could not be persuaded to provide either matching dalmatics or a antependium!
I have to say, though, it was nice not being surprised by such excellence otherwise!
"This question about the incensation of the altar at the Magnificat again?! Perhaps one of the team of contributors here could write a piece on the practice of the deacon's incensing the altar at the Magnificat. I would greatly appreciate it as it might prevent this question coming up every single time the Pope presides at Solemn Vespers."
Pardon me for saying so, Fr. Selvester, but this tone of impatience seems rather unwelcoming when questions should be encouraged.
We've come a long way since the other Marini has been out of office. Deo Gratias. Tom
I take exception to the remark about the surplice.It is a made by G.the taylors to the Pope.It falls nicely when you wear it and is very dignified and beautiful.I own one and requires handwashing.I also own a lace surplice.
I agree that the non-lace surplice is very nice. I also own one. De gustibus and all that, but the lace surplice is the less pleasing one to my eye. I don't understand the great devotion to this feminine, lacy style.
Once again, snide remarks about vestments that don't go back to 1830. Could we learn a simple equation: Old is not necessarily good, nor is new necessarily bad -- and vice versa. Indeed, I think the Master made some kind of comment about the wise steward who knows how to bring out of his storehouse, the new and the old.
Can we move beyond facile, knee-jerk reactions?
And yes, I likewise own one of those "ugly" surplices, along with matching albs.
May God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ send you His Grace and His Peace! Wishing Pope Benedict a Blessed Holy Advent.
I love that cope. The design on the fabric is enormous! I'll take one.
But I can only imagine how out of place it would look in our 1960s Bomb Shelter Style parish church!
I like the so-called "Vatican style" surplices that the one MC is wearing and that Abp. Piero Marini effectively popularized. Some ubertraditionalist types say that only "neocons" wear that style -- to them I say, "whatever". Surely, as head MC, Msgr. Guido Marini could exert a sufficient influence to change the way the other MCs dressed if he felt otherwise. Apparently he does not!
Robin Ward, I've not studied the papal liturgy as much, but for solemn vespers in the Traditional Roman form, the altar is supposed to be stripped. The lectern is, however, given a proper seasonal covering.
I am pleased that the Holy Father is continuing his program of liturgical reform. The use of Latin and plainsong for solemn liturgical celebrations is always good.
By the way, I am disappointed that this blog is often used by its readers as a forum for pedantry and sarcasm. We're all Catholics here, and should really therefore all be friends.
Meow! I suspect that the lace, latticework, etc. on albs, surplices and rochets accentuates the rank of the cleric by showing more of the cassock. I am very thankful that they haven't brought back those mini surplices that appeared to have an over petticoat. Cottas?
One more comment about the surplices, I too own one, but, it does look a bit strange seeing the Pope and Msgr. Marini in lace and having everyone else in the newer style. Even if it were just the two Cerimoniere and the deacons in lace, as well as the Pope, it would just look better.
I'm still confused about the two deacons at the Magnificat. I understand the Pope not doing it himself, but why two? And did only one of them incense the Pope?
While the altar of the chair may be the more traditional spot for the throne (in keeping with the design of most ancient basilicas), the throne is a bit more visible where it is now, given the size of St. Peter's. And furthermore, the positioning of the throne to the side, facing the altar, serves as a very good model for parish churches to follow.
i agree with patrick
Re the style of surplices, I, like the fathers posted above, own one of each style. Sometimes one seems more apt, sometimes another. It very much depends what stole I am wearing with them, etc.
This shouldn't be a polemical issue. The lacy ones are not "feminine" or Pope Benedict wouldn't wear them himself; the other ones shouldn't be dismissed as "neo-con" simply because they were worn by the earlier Marini. A church that produced sacred temples as diverse as Hagia Sophia, Chartres, and St. Peter's can certainly accommodate more than one type of surplice.
My only question would be whether it wouldn't make sense for the two MC's to coordinate their styles for the sake of symmetry.
From all the old photographs I have seen the elevated Papal Throne with canopy in front of the Altar of the Chair was anything but inconspicuous. If the Holy Father is giving proper liturgical demonstrations for the general usage then strictly Papal aspects should be avoided so as not to confuse.
I'd say that the throne is slowly, slowly moving into the right direction.
Once again my appeal: Give the poor deacons of the throne something to do!
Re: the surplices, there are two problems as I see it.
1. The position that anything without lace is somehow not befitting or even not traditional.
That really isn't the case, and indeed, the pleated surplices we often see in the Vatican are quite befitting and dignified.
2. The position that lace is somehow feminine or unbefitting.
That likewise isn't really the case, anymore than wearing rose vestments would be feminine, a cassock, or otherwise. We need to move beyond those kind of culturally conditioned categories as well.
For my part, I've seen both forms done very well, and both done not very well. The main thing is that, whatever style, they are done well.
Of course, all this applies to the whole vestment debate as well.
Why are there flowers? It's Advent, and if we're going to be traditional, there should be none except for Advent 3-Gaudete.
And I have to agree--old does not necessarily equal good. The lace has got to go, along with the modern pleated surplices. My parish uses fine, plain linen "angel wing" suplices and it gives a classy and not over-done look.
Lace is not fem...Liturgy is truly masculine when done properly. The only way that lace could be less than masculine in the liturgy is for a prima-donna to wear it.
Yall needs to stop trippin!! (even you Priests on here) Lace is NOT feminine!!!! These "Americanisms"are getting old....
I can't understand why there is so much confusion about something so simple: a lace! It is not feminin!
Dear Monachus,
Thanks for the details. And yet, to me, those cowls still look modern. The material and the sleeves... However, I´ll take your word for it.
By the way, after 40 years of what we´ve seen, people are very much entitled to wonder and grumble, I believe. A thousand times. Especially on a liturgical blog.
And since I´m here, I might as well restate my old opinion about lace and the like: it is really a matter of quality, material and craftsmanship. (And occasion. And context.) If only cotton, polycotton, what is ugly and of poor quality could be done away with, I believe we should have ample reason for rejoicing.
"Pardon me for saying so, Fr. Selvester, but this tone of impatience seems rather unwelcoming when questions should be encouraged."
Not the same question over and over again ad infinitum. There's a reason the past entries are archived. It is so people can go back and read them. The Pope celebrates solemn vespers several times a year, not just once, and this comes up every time. Are people just not bothering to read before they ask? This is why I asked if a whole article about this could be written but it makes me wonder if that would make a difference either. Furthermore, it seems that those who ask about the incensation are looking to do one of two things: 1) to point out some way that this practice at the Vatican is "non-traditional" (i.e. deficient) because they love to do nothing but knock the goings-on at papal liturgies or 2) they want to start doing it in their own parishes but want to make sure it isn't reserved to papal liturgies. Either way it is the same bottom line. That is, a question being asked in order to justify a pre-conceived idea. Asking the same question over and over again until you get the answer you want is not seeking for knowledge. It is pursuing an agenda.
If you read impatience (which in and of itself is not synonymous with inhospitality) in my comment that's your problem. What I was expressing was surprise and astonishment because the people who write this blog have already addressed this question more than once.
Ah, I forgot to say that those Paul VI albs and surplices with grey pseudo-lace holes in them, with a few artificial pleats, really are ugly. Besides being non-linen. They remind me of an old French Dominican who liked his albs brown.
(No, I most certainly do not find Msgr Marini´s surplice ideal, but much better than the already mentioned Paul VI style. Besides, Msgr Marini´s surplice is also a symbol of a new mentality in Rome, which to me is even more important.)
The lace, non-lace discussion is really not a primary point for this thread, and there's now been plenty of discussion about it, so let's move on from that point please and let people for the moment agree to disagree.
I'm guessing one reason for the throne placement is so that the Holy Father does not have to walk a very long distance to the altar (which is helpful for his age)and also the deacons do not, when they move from the altar to the chair to cense the Holy Father. I also suspect it makes him somewhat more visible.
It is quite amazing how much the style and character of the papal liturgies has changed since Mgr Guido Marini became the Master of Papal Ceremonies. One only needs to look again at the photos from the 2005 or 2006 First Vespers of Advent, and compare them with last year's and today's celebrations. DEO GRATIAS!
http://www.vatican.va/
news_servi...x_20051126.html
http://www.vatican.va/
news_servi...x_20061202.html
OK--leaving the lace alone, why the flowers?? That bothers me more. The church seasons are marked by the additions or absences of things, flowers being one of them. The stark, unadorned church speaks volumes during the times of penance and fasting, and does not detract from the beauty of liturgy done well. I for one, look for and notice those details in the change of seasons.
Re Surplices:
I grew up in a parish where lace was used on festive occasions and plain surplices for penitential seasons and for mourning. I believe that this was the practice once in Rome as well for Cardinals to wear rochets without lace during the interregnum. (I might be wrong though) Of course, back then, not seeing large amounts of lace was unusual so I guess it had more of an effect.
Fr. Selvester,
Not all of us have an encyclopedic knowledge of past entries on this site. Some of us are new to the site. The reason I thought that your particular post was lacking in hospitality was because it might give the following impression: "Unless you are committed to reading all relevant archives on this site in order to make sure your comment has not already been addressed [what question has not already been addressed somewhere?], do not presume to post." Very few people will wish to engage in conversation if they will be faulted in this manner. Each blog conversation is a new opportunity to spread the truth to people who might not have learned it already.
Not all of us have the time to read through archives searching for past entries relevantly similar to the current one. The best chance to get an answer is to ask in the most recent post.
I see no reason to believe that the posters in question knew that they were asking a question asked and answered earlier by others. This is a blog, not a correspondence course in which everyone can reasonably be expected to have read every course packet. And, in any case, repetition is often the better part of pedagogy.
Thank you for reading my comments and for responding.
Having been at Vespers tonight and many other Papal Ceremonies recently, the option of using the deacons to incense the altar could even stem from the fact that when the Pope does anything it turns in to a photo-op. When he starts incensing the altar, it's like a run-way with all the flashes.
Vespers tonight was wonderful. There was beautiful music and vestments, prayerful silence in-between each Psalm, and a nice homily.
Also, interesting to note was the fact that, out of the people who read the intercessions, the three men were vested in an alb, amice, and cincture - and the lady was wearing a nice dress... this may not be anything new though.
Thanks for the coverage.
Even if Joe and Gregory of Langres do have an agenda -- and I must beg to differ with Fr. Selvester as to whether their posts, nos. 3 and 4 above, indicate this -- they phrased their queries in the most polite manner possible. Would that more folks with agendas took them as models!
Another question: both the cope and the red 'backdrop' behind the throne showed a papal coat of arms? Were they the present pope's arms, and did they have a mitre or a tiara on the top?
I have the suspicion that the silly three-striped mitre (Navy Commander?) is being slowly replaced by the tiara, but nothing has to my knowledge been said publicly on that topic.
As regards the return of the Mantum - this overlong vestment can only be worn if the Pope does not have to walk more than a few steps - Urbi et Orbi would be a possibility (or the return of the Sedia, but this may take a little while longer).
I second that, Tobias.
Let each reader have the freedom to ask or comment as he wishes, WITHOUT fear of being snapped at.
May I ask an obvious question here: The Pope's vestment, and those of his accompanying deacons, is brown. Not purple. Maybe a better shade and quality of brown than a UPS truck driver, but, unless my eyes are fooling me, Papa Benny is wearing brown. Why?
The incensing deacons are definitely wearing purple. The difference is obvious. So why the brown? Any answers?
PMcGrath, I am not sure what you are seeing, for the vestments are certainly purple.
PMcGrath, I think you need to make some prayers to St Lucy... :-)
Dear PMcGrath,
the Papal "pluviale" ('rain coat' in latin) or cope is definetely purple. It is made of gorgeous lush fabric - a rich plum purple shot with gold. It was worn before by the Holy Father during a celebration of the Sacrament of Penance with the youth of the Diocese of Rome on March 13 (2008), see photos by Stefano Spaziani:
http://www.webalice.it/stefanosp...ni/
Papa5559.htm
Regarding the issue of flowers, we should note that they are not prohibited in the contemporary liturgy for Advent (whether we like it or not or whether or not that should change is another issue); moderation in decoration is called for in the present norms. Furthermore, Advent is no longer presented as a pentitential season, per se (again, whether or not that is desirable); rather, it is to be regarded as a time of joyful preparation and anticipation (which certainly has a penitential element to it, but not overwhelmingly so).
Can we just all agree that the Holy Father is a GREAT pope and that the solemnity of this vespers service is a great improvement over last year's solemn vespers servies?
Let's not be so caught up in extremely small details, folks. The liturgy is not about us.
Is the color of the holy father's cope the same as the roman violet I've heard of before, as opposed to the bright purple of the deacons who censed the altar?
Last week, we had PONTIFICAL Vespers for the Feast of St. Gertrude the Great. The Celebrant(Bishop)incensed the altar, than handed the thurifer to the Deacon who incensed the celebrant. The Deacon than incensed everyone else (sub, m/c, servers, congregation) than handed the thruifer back to the m/c who than incensed him.
*Sigh*
I was about to ask why the Pope and his assistant deacons were wearing red and the other deacons blue - then I read the last comments and realized the answer...
I am partly colour-blind (protanomalia, having less sensitivity to red than normal, but still seeing it), and have only had this diagnosed last year.
It is rather difficult to accept that what I thought was what everyone saw is actually not so.
Were Papal liturgies, prior to the reforms, always so heavily reliant on the MC's... I, too, wonder why the Deacon's assisting at the thone aren't actually assisting at the throne? Is it entirely impossible to train them to open pages for the Holy Father and to place the Mitre on his head and pass him the staff? Surely that is what they are there for? If not... what are they there for at all? And one begins to see why A'bp Marini did away with them.
Thanks be to God. Were any american bishops watching? Will they follow the Holy Fathers lead? Don't hold your breath. Thank you Holy Father.
If i see correctly His Holiness put on the rationale of Pius XII. It was presented to Pius XII by Luigi Einaudi, Presidente della Republicca Italiana, who visited the papal court on february 11th in occassion of the 25th anniversary of the Lateran pacts.
This morning it seems I have an agenda! Not at all. The vestments at Vespers last evening were stunningly beautiful - I am very much an advocate of new vestments that conform to the ideals of the hermeneutic of continuity. The liturgy in San Pietro has come so far in a short space of time and, actually, it shows how lucky we are when the anxiety is about the dalmatics and not the integrity of the celebration.
On the various issues about the placing of the throne and the method of censing, I wonder how much precedent there is in fact for Papal practice in the celebration of Solemn Vespers before the Council. When the Solemn Papal Liturgy was only carried out regularly three times a year in S. Peter's (of which two were Easter and Pentecost both with distinctive vigils observed in the Sistine chapel) it is difficult to see exactly when the Pope would have celebrated Vespers in this way. John XXIII did apparently do so, as well as restoring a Solemn Papal Liturgy at Christmas, but for the first time since at least 1870.
I don't agree that the altar should be unvested during Solemn Vespers in the Extraordinary form, and I still think it is a pity that there is no frontal here.
It would be of great interest to hear more about the distinctive Vigils served in the Sistine Chapel as part of the solemn Papal liturgy!
What is a "rationale"?
I thought the ceremony was beautiful.
And the contributor who posted the 2005 Vespers with Piero Marini still in command show how much we have recovered towards being Catholics under Benedict XVI in only 1 year.
Benedict XVI's vesture in 2005 a la Piero Marini was 100% "Anglican" style which is fine for Anglicans.
Yesterday, Benedict XVI wore magnificent Baroque style vestments which recall the glory days of the Catholic Counter-Reformation, and also the great ceremonies as they were before being striped down by Paul VI.
I wish the Sedia Gestatoria would be restored, not only for Papal ceremonial traditon, but simply that it's ashame for people to crowd into St. Peter's for these events, and be unable to see the Pope processing up the aisle.
Eveneryone knows JP II was too "macho" in the beginning of his reign to use the Sedia, but at the end due to his illnesses had to stand on a glorified push-cart.
The sedia could resolve two problems.
1)Allowing people to see the Pope at ceremonies at St. Peter's and elsewhere.
2) Save the Pope the steps of walking as he ages.
Rationale from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/...then/
12651c.htm
http://dappledphotos.blogspot.co.../
rationale.html
and about The Cope:
http://dappledphotos.blogspot.co...06/01/
cope.html
One only has to look at the links to 05 and 06 to see how far we have come...Notice how the previous throne did not fit the persona of Pope..It looks out of place...The "Leo" throne is a marked improvement. As for the lace, Simply when I see it I think of the Catholic Church, is that such a bad thing? Let's pray it stays this way...God Bless Our Holy Father..
In the Roman Seminary we were always taught that the amount and intricacy of the lace was related to the rank of the wearer and the solemnity of the occasion, and that, in a Mass, priest and deacons should have the same type of alb preferably, except when a prelate celebrated, in which case he got the lace. De gustibus and all that, but let's also see the cultural element. Latin cultures do not seem to have this allergy to lace; the emerging of the Vatican style was not to denigrate lace as much as it was for simplicity's sake. De gustibus, I think that the Vatican style as well as much of what passes for lace is ghastly. There is something to be said for the old Roman custom of long square-yoked linen surplices with a metal closure with a discreet bit of lace at the bottom. For prelates, though, the Vatican style rochets really look like they should be for mourning. As for albs, should the idea of progressive solemnity not hold sway? Not that I am a model, but I stay without lace for Advent, Lent, Requiems, ferial days and memorials, small filets for feasts and Sundays, and go all out for solemnities. But then again, in my seminary we actually matched cufflinks to progressive solemnity as well, so that might be a bit overdone :-)
RipK,
I'm sorry for my mistake. I meant "formale"
OK, people. "Upon further review ..." (as the NFL referees say).
I had a look at the photos here again. Still looked brown to me. Then I had a look at the link RipK sent along. Yeah, OK. It looks purple in those pictures. (And I'm viewing it on the same monitor, of course.)
Maybe the light in St. Peter's, combined with the CTV feed, makes that "gorgeous lush fabric - a rich plum purple shot with gold" look brown here.
You could definitely see the contrast between the incensing deacons and the "pluviale" (see fifth and sixth pics from the bottom). That's what got my mind to wondering.
Thanks Fr. Peter for the clarification that flowers are no longer "dis-allowed" during Advent in the modern Roman rite. It's just a tradition now I guess, but a good one in my estimation. Is the 7th candle on the altar, seen much of late, required by the modern Roman rite when a bishop presides?
Notice the position of the corpus on the crucifix, well maybe its not so obvious on these photos, but it is facing the people. When Mass is celebrated it faces the priest and when Mass is not being celebrated or a different liturgical event takes place, such as vespers, the the corpus faces out, towards the people. This is very important to know for those who are implementing the "Benedictine" altar arrangement (and kudos to them!).
Actually the "Benedictine" altar arrangement is developing into an irritation. If one looks at the old photographs of the central altar of St. Peter's basilica the crucifix and the six candles, evenly spaced, are arranged down the center length of the altar. The corpus faces the altar stone (i.e. towards the Altar of the Chair). The Papal Throne was formerly in front of the Altar of the Chair (whereas that area is now often sadly gloomy and empty). The congregation was, in these old photographs, much closer to the altar on all sides. Liturgically it made perfect sense, was obviously in a scale that fitted the basilica, regardless of Ordinary or Extraordinary form.
Now with the migrating Papal Throne, revolving corpus, candlesticks pushed to the sides and back edge for better TV viewing (in most other Papal masses even in St. Peter's)I often get the sense of yet another faddish treatment even if it is in better taste than other recent regrettable experiments. I don't understand why there is this need to tinker with what was not broken.
It begins to look as though we shall have to wait for the solution to the mystery of the incensing deacons until Mgr Marini or someone in his department decides to spill the beans. Meanwhile, does anyone out there know where one can obtain a) modern "Vatican" style cottas without paying in excess of euro 600, and b)traditional lace ones? Mine are disintegrating with age.
Fr S,
Thank you.
Sacerdos Vagans,
The Benedictine Sisters of Mary make good vestments in traditional material (linen and silk only). Here: http://www.benedictinesofmary.org
Then, there´s E-Bay of course...
(My conscience forbids me to tell you where you can find Paul VI surplices.)
John K:
LOL!
Well, as the saying goes, "follow your conscience!"
I am not sure about turning the crucifix around. I think that the altar always has a front and a back side, and since St Peter's is 'the wrong they round' with the Apse in the West the front side is towards the Apse, and the back towards the East, i.e. the nave. Also, when incensing one would normally start at the West side, incense the cross from there, and then go round. doing it the other way round for Vespers rseems really confusing.
Generally, I do not really think that the Holy Father is too frail to walk up the altar-steps, he has to do the same during mass, and he does not seem to have problems with it. Preventing the people from taking out their cameras could be a better reason. However, generally this seems to me hardly good liturgical style, it means that the celebrant of Vespers never comes close to the altar and never kisses it.
I am not an expert for the Ambrosian Rite - however, I attended Vespers in Milan Cathedral some years ago (for the ceremony of the Nivola), and at the beginnign of the opening 'Lucernarium' the Cardinal began with the incensation, which was then completed by some other clergy, so he did go to the altar. If there was a second incensation done only by deacons I do not recall. My equally humble knowledge of Byzantine Liturgy also does not really suggest parallels - as different from the Roman Rite the clergy are standing around the altar for much of the Vespers, and the latter is at least thrice incensed by the celebrant and at least once by the Deacon, so the priest does it several times himself. (If anyone could tell me why the deacon does it once I'd be grateful, I really have no clue).
Unless there is really a good reason for this innovation (what one should not exclude) it would seem best to return to the usual - especially as in the age of TV (and blogs!) the papal liturgy is a strongly present model for liturgy everywhere.
ON THE USE OF SEDIA GESTATORIA:
!Hola!
I, too, hope for the return of the Sedia, however I think it might be a security issue to have the Holy Father high above everbody else...
and thus it would make him an easy target...you know what I mean.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this. I am no expert in logistics and the like
At a typical Byzantine Vespers with a deacon(s) the celebrant never touches the thurible. The deacon (or deacons) does all the censing. The exception would be for a combined Vigil (Vespers and Matins)or when the Liti service with Artoklasia is called for.
Beautiful pictures from St. Peter's....and some nice closeups of the Holy Father!
I agree with Patrick....we're all Catholics here....let's 'play nice', OK?
In re: Lace surplices...
I agree that the wearing of lace surplices and albs is not an effiminate act...quite the contrary.
However, it was my belief that such "gilding of the lily" was frowned on during the penitential seasons of Lent, and indeed, Advent. I thought adornments such as floral arrangements and overly decorated vestments were to be laid aside until the Mass at Midnight. No?
Nick:
"Now with the migrating Papal Throne, revolving corpus, candlesticks pushed to the sides and back edge for better TV viewing (in most other Papal masses even in St. Peter's)I often get the sense of yet another faddish treatment even if it is in better taste than other recent regrettable experiments."
I have written on this topic today - there is a genuine concern that without a clear idea of what changes are being put forward, the excellent changes will fade into insignificance...
See here if you are interested: http://www.massinformation.org/2...-in-
reform.html
Good point, Nick.
Well, it is a point Nick is making, and a true one at that, but the Byzantine and Roman are two different liturgical traditions.
The very word 'tradition' there implies something always done (or, at least, done for a long time).
Deacons incensing the altar without the celebrant is most certainly not part of the Roman tradition.
AB,
I´m sorry. The point I was agreeing with was actually the one made by Gregory of L, and not Nick.
I notice no Cardinal Deacons in this Vesper Service.
Many events, from this pontificate (including Vespers for the Feast of the Conversion of S. Paul), have used Cardinal Deacons.
Thoughts?
Commenting by HaloScan
