Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
Hey Bishop Trautman, do you notice all of the "old" people there? Why don't you brush up on the TLM and say one yourself. It may be the best thing for you!.
Shawn, thanks for sharing this magnificent story and the gorgeous pictures!
Tom
Bishop Eliot to Sydney.
Cardinal Pell to Westminster, and thence...
Man, I love episcopal gloves! Isn't it true that they can still be used by Bishops in the Ordinary Form?
Is there no choir in that loft? Is it just an organ Mass or what? Spectacular looking organ, by the way.
Awesome homily!
Viva Christo Rey!
Where can I get vestments like those? Does anyone know?
Cardinal Pell to Westminster, Yes. Bishop Elliott to Sydney, Cardinal Arinze out (as of tomorrow!!!!!), and hopefully Archbishop Ranjith in.
A game of musical chairs perhaps, but it all depends if the right man sits in the chair...or the wrong man (which is the case with too many USA Bishops, and others in Europe).
I'd prefer Pell to the CDF and, yes, Elliott to Sydney... Fr. AIDAN Nichols or Fr. Lang to Westminster... and Levada to early retirement, where he can't help promote his friends to his former see. Sorry for the mischief, but it is Halloween!
Truly excellent visuals and even more excellent homily from His Lordship. I second all the sentiments about promotion for him.
As a Texan and parishioner of a parish where we are blessed to have relics of Bl. Miguel Pro, SJ, I am very edified to see his memory, and those of the Cristeros in general, maintained in such a far away place, as well as a prelate telling it like it was about who the Mexican government of the time really were.
Let us also not forget the countless martyrs of Spain who also died with Viva Cristo Rey! on their lips; not to mention the story that is told that many of the murdered clergy were found with gunshots through the sides of their right hands, as they were killed while blessing their murderers.
I'm confused. This appears to be the extraordinary form of the Mass, but I would swear that in one picture the deacon is elevating the chalice at the per ipsum. Any thoughts?
Upon further inspection, I think he must be handing the ciborium to the priest at the offertory.
do the faithful still kiss the bishops ring before receiving holy communion?
Are we quite certain that this is the extraordinary form, or just a spectacularly celebrated ordinary form? I didn't see any altar cards or maniples, or anything else that would clue one in. Thoughts?
You'll notice quite a few things that indicate that it is the extraordinary form- assistant priest in cope, a book (the Pontifical Canon) open at the middle of the altar at the Offertory in addition to the missal, and at the prayers at the foot of the altar, the use of the humeral veil for a subdeacon, maniples, pontifical tunicle (with a nice border at the edge of the sleeve) and so forth.
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Isn't the mitre the one that was designed by St. Bede's?
Dear R,
Yes, I designed and made both mitres (precious mitre and cloth gold mitre) for the bishop's use on this occasion as well as the Pontifical tunicle.
Thom, bishops don't use altar cards for the celebration of the Old Mass; instead they use a book called the Canon Missae. The bishop and his ministers are wearing maniples.
LJ, yes, the Faithful ought still to kiss the ring of the Bishop before receiving Communion from him in the "Extraordinary Form" of the Roman Rite.
Michael.
In a High Mass, the Deacon prepares the chalice and holds it with the Celebrant during the prayer, "Offerimus tibi..."
Thanks for the clarification.
(My hope was that, since it was Bp. Elliott, he may have done the ordinary form right.) :-p
Oh, dear bring on the smelling salts!
How wonderful to see 'real' albs on the acolytes in the procession...makes me weak in the knees. Any discussion here about the use of proper albs over the cassock/surplice?
And what about appareled amices? Why do we never see them??
On a day all about various costuming,
E
Eric,
I was the second acolyte at this mass, and yes both of us were properly vested with alb over our cassoks. In the old and new form the acolyte takes the place of a cleric in minor orders, therefore this is not a chior role, and therefore it is proper to wear alb. Both of us were very happy to do it and we always do it at our solomn mass on Sundays.
Bishop Elliot was wearing an appareled amice which is sometimes visible.
Pell to somewhere away from Liturgy & beautiful Cathedrals!!
Yes Elliot is certainly the new star of the episcopal classes here in OZ... probably after Bish Jarrett of Lismore who is renovating his Cathedral too... but... it much much much better than what Pell is doing to Syd.
All in all I bravely have a list of the top 5 OZ bishops in order:
Bish Jarrett
Aux Bish Elliot
Card Pell
Arch Hart
Arch Hickey
Dane, we met during the Pontifical Mass in Bendigo. Is there any way I can contact you?
Eric,
If you don't want to see that conversation, a good strategy is to not bring it up.
Many of us do not want to debate again either.
If Mr. Tribe does not delete my massage, Eric, as he "likes" to do, then I'll ask you a question about the use of Albs that you are talking about. [I delete them when they are inappropriate, and you are on the cusp of that right now by simply throwing out such a comment. Don't be inappropriate, accusatory or inflammatory and your comments will remain. - NLM]
Can you provide a very credible source that says that **in the traditional Mass** it is O.K., or more correct - as you seem to imply, to wear Albs and cincture over cassock (and surplice), instead of just cassock and surplice?
Of course, I am talking about sources that deal only with the traditional Mass in its context (meaning, pre-1964).
The Catholic Encyclopedia under "Alb" says:
"As regards the use of the alb, the practice has varied from age to age. Until the middle of the twelfth century the alb was the vestment which all clerics wore when exercising their functions, and Rupert of Deutz mentions that, on great festivals, both in his own monastery and at Cluny, not only those who officiated in the sanctuary, but all the monks in their stalls wore albs. The alb was also worn at this period in all religious functions, e.g. in taking Communion to the sick, or when assisting at a synod. Since the twelfth century, however, the cotta or surplice has gradually been substituted for the alb in the case of all clerics save those in greater orders, i.e. subdeacon, deacon, priest, and bishop. At present the alb is little used outside the time of Mass. At all other functions it is permissible for priests to wear a surplice."
This isn't dispositive, but seems to suggest a trend in practice and not a rubrical decision.
Samuel,
Thanks for the info!
However, we all know that at one point the Alb was what was worn by all servers. No one denies this. Also, all this might have been before "rubrics" were taken as *seriously* as they were later. This was also before the Order of the Mass was uniform.
Monks wearing Albs - this is something else because they tended to keep the older practices (and rites). Sometimes, they would also wear their habits and over that the (long) surplice. I have seen this in pictures. For all I know, the use of the Alb in monastic orders might be part of their Use and rubrics...
When it comes to (Roman) rubrics, though, the most authoritative, especially the *Roman Missal*, do mention the surplice as the vestment the servers have to wear (always assuming that the cassock will also be worn). The fact that it is mentioned in the "Ritus Servandus," section of the "Missale Romanum" makes it a *rubrical decision/matter*.
Also, other rubricists, including Fortescue-O'Connell-Reid and Menghini-Dante, do mention the use of the Alb as an abuse -or something like that- as the Alb, in the (traditional) Roman Rite, is not "l'abito proprio."
Just a few days ago, some people were praising and were going crazy over what the new Papal M.C. because he is willing to "read the black and do the red." Well, those same people advocate the opposite, in the traditional Roman Rite, when they want to force the use of the Alb into the rubrics of the (traditinoal) Mass.
In the words of the new Papal M.C., please, no "oddities." Please!
Latinmass1983,
"Just a few days ago, some people were praising and were going crazy over what the new Papal M.C. because he is willing to "read the black and do the red." Well, those same people advocate the opposite, in the traditional Roman Rite, when they want to force the use of the Alb into the rubrics of the (traditinoal) Mass.".
You seem to have a penchant for throwing out these kinds of statements. Who are these "same people?" who commented thus as regards the new Marini, and then want to "force the use of the alb"?
Make qualified arguments and give direct references if you are going to throw out such implications.
Like I said, it's not dispositive. Feel free to post an opposite citation if you have one. I'll look in FRO when I get home, but didn't have it with me earlier.
Samuel,
What's FRO?
Fortescue-O'Connell-Reid talks about this unusual use of Albs in the (traditional) Roman Rite. I can't give you page numbers right now because I don't have the book with me... it might be at the beginning of the section on Solemn Mass, but I'm not sure.
Menghini-Dante (Le Sacre Ceremonie) does say that the appropriate thing for Altar servers to wear is (the cassock and) the surplice. He calls it "l'abito proprio."
And, like I said, the Roman Missal itself mentiones the surplice when talking about servers. This should be in "Ritus servanduns in celebratione missae."
Fr. Antoņana ("Manual de Liturgua Sagrada") also talks only about the surplice as the proper thing that Altar servers should wear.
Ah, I meant "FOR" for Fortescue et al.
Fortescue (current ed.) pg 55 reads: "Servers wear the cassock and surplice." This sentence has a footnote that reads: "R[itus Servandus in Celebratione Missae]., II, 1; S.R.C. 4194 [section]2. The use of the alb by servers is contrary to the rubrics."
(Though there's always the possibility that the folks in Australia have gotten some sort of special ruling from PCED as they've done in the past.)
Is it really, really a problem if servers wear albs? Is it the thin edge of the wedge of Modernism or something? I'm having difficulty figuring out what people are getting so excited about.
Setting all of the above particulars aside, I find myself wondering why I experience such joy scrolling down screen after screen of the beautiful photos of the Masses celebrated reverently with gorgeous vestments and golden vessels.
I think it's because this site is a treat for someone raised before the Council.
I left the Church in 1963, and as I have said before, I came back in 1975 to find that the liturgy of the Church I came back to was replaced by amateur hour.
It still sets my teeth on edge to recall liturgies at St. Frances Cabrini in Minneapolis (in a University neighborhood) with liturgical dancers in bright colored stretch pants, balloons, banners that looked like someone left the laundry out on the line, folk musicians performing, the community being the focus, Communion bread baked with baking soda and sugar, people who jumped all over me because I supported the Church's stand on abortion . . ..
A travesty of the good replaced the good itself (all in the name of the purported spirit of Vatican II). The real mystery to me is why the majority went along with the hijackers of the Council. If you understand why people's hearts could turn away from the truth so easily, I would love to hear from you.
FC wrote:
Is it really, really a problem if servers wear albs? Is it the thin edge of the wedge of Modernism or something?
Not for most people it isn't...
But for those who feel that Tradition is compromised by the use of albs by servers, form your own collective to talk about the matter, and don't bore us any further in these ComBoxes.
There are more important issues to discuss.
Indeed, let's move on.
Let's focus on a simply beautiful liturgy and event.
Sorry to start a brawl on the blog...BUT I brought it up because I think that the alb has significant theological revelations within the liturgy. It is the garment of the neophyte, given at Baptism, and the vestment which gives dignity to the laity. Also take note to the references of the white-robed given by St. John. In my liturgical fantasy life, I've often mused about the entire assembly donning their albs every Sunday as they come to participate in the sacrifice of the Mass.
I may be dreaming but I think that I once read a commentary about the surplice suggesting that its usage came about from an evolutionary gradual shortening of the alb--think Gothic to Baroque chasubles. (I used to have a friend that despised the look of cottas--he referred to them as the 'liturgical half shirt.')
I will admit that I like the look of what the Anglicans call a Cathedral Surplice--it almost covers the entire cassock and has very long bell shaped sleeves. The Anglican Church was once described to me as a 'flutter of surplices amongst antiphonal psalm singing.'
Thanks for the information, friends. Anyone ready to talk to me about apparels?
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
E
For Michael, you can contact me at danelaman@hotmail.com
As for this interesting debate, a server is one thing and a cleric under minor orders is another. An Acolyte is still to this day a cleric under holy orders and he or the one excercising his function will wear alb in the liturgy. In contrast a server such as a torchbearer is a member of the choir and not a minor cleric. For one thing he will never wear an alb for any reason whatsoever, the surplus is proper for him.
Dane,
An acolyte is not a cleric under holy orders. Prior to Paul VI's Ministeria Quaedam an acolyte was a cleric in minor orders.
Now, the office of acolyte is a ministry also open to those men who are not students for the priesthood. The acolytate is a ministry or office, not a minor order. Whether we like it or not, this applies to the Ordinary and Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, until such time as Rome decrees otherwise.
Eric, I don't think anyone would dare risk a frenzy in this ComBox by opening a discussion on the apparelled alb and amice.
The Mass was wonderful, Bp Elliot handled himself well and it was also great to see Bishop Grech of Sandhurst (Bendigo) sit in on Mass at his throne too.
Much fruit was harvested at this Mass. Bishop Grech was overheard saying 'I have been wrongly advised' when seeing the youth approach his Cathedral for the 'Extraordinary form' of Mass (In reference to the common lie told about 'youth' don't like this Mass)
In my memories of pre-Vatican II days it was qute clear that the alb was limited to the priest deacon and subdeacon. I remember one priest who knew more about liturgy than anyone I have met before or since, who chanted the first lesson on Good Friday at a Pontifical Liturgy. I asked why he wore only a surplice and he was very clear that the alb was not allowed.
I am an Anglican who often functions as a lay acolyte and lay subdeacon at High Mass at the well known St. Thomas's Huron Street in Toronto. We have Solemn High Mass every sunday and weekdays on great feasts (e.g. All Saints and All Souls this past wweek). As a layman I don't wear a miniple. The MC wears a full surplice and the acolytes, thurifer, and crucifer wear albs with apparelled amices. This refects a Sarum influence. Likewise on greater days the crucifer also wears a tunicle.
On a different topic, a writer above questions whether the Pontifical Mass of Bishop Elliot was the Older or Newer Use because of the lack of Altar Cards. In fact bishops do not use altar cards but rather, the Canon Pontificalis. I personally regret that he is not wearing buskins and sandals which go back to the days of Constantine who bestowed their use upon Pope St. Sylvester I. Their use was universal before the reforms but bringing them back might not be easy
What's all this business of 'Elliott for Sydney'? Do you people know how many Melbournians have been poached by the Sydney Archdiocese in the last few years?
I say keep Bishop Elliott in Melbourne and may he continue as head of the John Paul II Institute.
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