Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
Ireland: beautiful heritage and lots of wonderful chrches but........... terrible terrible liturgy (from my experience).
And an even more horrifying lack of respect for our own tradition when it came to the sad and largely unnecessary "reordering" of our best churches in the early to mid 70s. Witness The Cathedral of St Mary in Killarney (a Pugin masterpiece defaced), the Augustinian Friary in Galway, St Mary's Green Street in Dingle, and hundreds of others. It's as if we took the best of Irish ecclesiastical art and architecture and decided, overnight, that it was worthless. Even more shocking in all this iconoclasm was the overweening attitude that dismissed the untold sacrifices of the largely poor of our previous generations that made these beautiful churches possible. They were oases of faith and beauty in lives that were often rugged, marginal, desperately poor, but full of hope. To ignore that part of the story belies an almost breathtaking arrogance on the part of the church wreckers.
Shawn,
While not suggesting any kind of revival, it is precisely those distinctive Irish elements, particularly in the decorative arts, that might well serve as an inspiration for further development in the Irish (or, more broadly, Celtic) Church. When the Church speaks of "Inculturation," I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean Elvis-style rock 'n roll as a model for American liturgical music. That would be an imposition of style. Using the best and most beautiful (My God! Where to begin!) elements of elements of earlier Celtic religious decorative styles (as seen in the Book of Kells, Lindesfarne Gospels, and Book of Durrow, just to name a really few sources) could (should?) lead to a truly distinctive, organic development of a wonderful Irish or Celtic "style" as regards ecclesiastical decoration. I'm less sure of "native" architectural styles, but would be interested in hearing from Irish architectural historians as to how those might also be developed. The possibilities are beyond interesting...
I think it goes without saying that I am looking at historical styles and not speaking to modern liturgical or artistic praxis within Ireland.
Re: revival, what I am suggesting by that is that I am not calling for any kind of archeologistic revival in some holistic sense.
Hmmm...I'm getting nothing but little empty boxes.
Thank God! Glorious photos have returned.
Very interesting pictures. St. Kevin's church in the first and second pictures, looks to be structurally intact compared to the other 'ruins'. Is it ever used for liturgical services?
The Irish certainly have some of the most beautiful Gospel books. I wrote a paper about the Liturgy of the Book of Kells many moons ago in college. They used the Old Celtic rite. Very interesting. It is somewhere in a box in my basement.
NB: it was for a course called, Early Mediaeval Art History of Ireland and Great Britain.
One of the great heritage of the Island of Saints is the great missionary monks who traveled far and wide to bring Christianity to the pagans.
Very lovely and thought-provoking. Most of our modern ecclesiastical structures will be dust a thousand years hence. Of the few ruins we will leave, what will the Catholics of 3008 think of them? Will the ruins of the cathedral of Los Angeles be considered beautiful?
The original Glendalough is part of Wicklow Mountains National Park. So I'm guessing that it's not really available for services, unless you have a priest with a portable Mass kit.
I was pleasantly surprised to see that the NLM was linked to by Sacred Heart Church in Dunn, NC, one of the finest small churches that I have ever had the pleasure to worship in.
While they are a small parish, they offer both the TLM and a very respectful Novus Ordo Mass that incorporates a good deal of latin in the liturgy.
If you are ever in the area of Dunn/ Fayetteville/Ft Bragg NC stop by for Mass. It's a spritually rewarding experience.
The pictures from the Books and of the crosses cast an interesting light on the recent discussion elsewhere on NLM of modern art and the Liturgy. They show just how powerful abstract and stylised Christian art can be. The poor stuff we 're so often saddled with doesn't negate this - it's just a testimony to the mundanity of so much contemporary Catholic artistic culture.
Let's not forget that it was also the Irish who brought us other valuable manuscripts such as the Stowe Missal (detailing the Celtic Rite), the Book of Dimma, Book of Mulling (which is probably copied from St. Moling, 2nd Bishop of Ferns' autograph), the Cathach of St. Columba and other similar works.
A pity not to make mention of Cormac's Chapel or, indeed, the whole rock of Cashel, which is as startling a sight as Mont St. Michel. There WAS a revival of 'Hiberno-Romanesque' in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The now tragicly re-ordered 'Basilica' in Lough Derg is one example.
I've been to mass in many parts of Ireland many times over the years and have always been struck by the uniform poor quality of the liturgy. Most of my relative's parishes never have any music including at the during holy week and midnight mass. I don't know about the state of the irish liturgy pre-vat II but whatever was there before has now completely collapsed.
When my irish relatives visit london and attend mass at my local catholic church, they hardly know wht to do. Most of them comment that it's like a protestant service with 'all that singing and incence and stuff'. I think for may 'average' Irish catholics, they think Vat II abolished any ceremonial and solemnity. It's very sad but somehow I get the impression it was always like that. Of course, there must be exceptions and I'm sure some places celebrate the liturgy with dignity. Overall though, I think Ireland is mostly a liturgically barren land.
Nice to see our Irish contingency coming out.
Anonymous, there are many great places in Ireland that could be mentioend. There is a reason it was called the Island of Saints and Scholars after all.
The question of the so-called "Celtic rite' is one thing of particular interest to me. I own a book by F.E. Warren (an Anglican liturgical scholar I believe) from the 19th century on the subject, though I haven't had a chance to read it.
I'm not certain how definitive the scholarship in the area is considered, perhaps someone here has great intimacy with this.
Unrelated topic, may apologies....
Does anyone know if the pope wore 'marini-pink' or rose today?
"I think for may 'average' Irish catholics, they think Vat II abolished any ceremonial and solemnity."
Say rather that the English Reformation abolished these for Irish Catholics, who were forced to worship secretly and silently, whilst their liturgical (and architectural) patrimony was taken over by the new established religion and came to be associated with it.
John m,
True for ya!
At the same time, I think that a very natural, low-key and less-than-fortescue-esque approach to Liturgy was common among Irish Clergy throughout the Empire (Irish/Clerical not British/Colonial) and the lapse in Liturgy after Vatican II was barely noticable in most places. By this I mean that it was very simple before and it went on being very simple after Vatican II, with most clergy and laity just carrying on as best they could.
The worst excesses of Irish Liturgy today are mostly 'reforms' from outside sources.
isnt it interesting that catholics equate solemnity and incense (as was mentioned earlier) as "protestant".
We threw out the best we had and now weve been empoverished for so long now we cant even recognize it when we see it.
truly sad
Much of the decoration of the so-called Celtic crosses goes back to at least 400 A.D. when St. Ninian left Ireland for Galloway in present day Scotland. A small museum in Whithorn has relics, among which are similar design crosses and other stone work. Especially noteworthy to my eye were the hemispheric bosses and the interwoven basketwork like designs on the edges of the cross.
(St. Ninian was the only named person to have seen the legendary Loch Ness monster, whom he commanded to cough up the man just eaten. And according to legend, the monster did that. No one has really seen the monster since about 400 AD, but lots of peoplehave talked about it for the last 1500-1600 years.) St. Ninian barely gets mentioned in the venerable Bede's History of the Church in England. St. Ninian's efforts at Whithorn was known and described in a sentence or two by Bede
(Pictures of the ancient Whithorn crosses available on request.)
Concerning the specifically celtic character of early Irish religious art one has to sound a note of caution. As an example, one can point to the image of Our Lady (f.7v) in the Book of Kells. Despite all its apparent "Celtic" character, it is in fact based on a prototype exhibited in Santa Maria Antiqua in Rome of Our Lady and the Christ child, turned towards each other, as well as on the icon of Our Lady and the Christ child surrounded by angles of Santa Maria in Trastvere (The Madonna della Clemenza).
Re Hiberno-Romanesque, especially Cormac's chapel, it too is heavely influenced by Regensburg and Wurzburg and its builders are believed to have been brought in from England.
Re the Celtic revival, the two most significant churches built in this style are the Honan Chapel at University College Cork and St. Brendan's Cathedral in Loughrea - both mercifully intact.
Here is a link to the Honan Chapel:
http://honan.ucc.ie/gallery.php
the church looks great, but the chasubles...straight out of a gay pride parade. is that the best they can do?
above comment was for john regarding honan chapel
The celtic rite would have been an amazing spectacle.
In the early days the Bishops wore crowns of gold.
There are a number of translations of the celtic missals by Anglicans attempting to show that there was a 'celtic' church separae from Rome- wich is nonsense. Nevertheless, their translations are excellent.
The Celtic rite is definately so lost that it could never be revived, but when one looks through the new age 'fog' it was obviously an extremely rich, Catholic and beutiful liturgical tradition.
I will did up the reference for the translations
Forget the modern junk and concentrate on the original vestments made for the chapel by the Dun Emar guild. They are first class in quality and design and fortunately, for the most part survive. I think the gree chasuble might not have but almost everything else has.
One think about about the early Church in Ireland was its concern to demonstrate that it was "Roman". It made no conscious effort to distinguish itself from the Roman See. This of course reduces to nonsense the dafter elements of the "Celtic Spirituality" school as exemplified by publications such as Anam Cara etc.
I am curious: Why was everyone falling all over themselves to state that they are not advocating any sort of revival. I mean, why not? If pugin could do it with Gothic, why could not a carefully-considered and holistic revival of celtic art and architecture not take place?
It is interesting reading the original post and ensuing comments. None of the ancient Hiberno-Romanesque churches in Ireland - whether at Glendalough, Cormac's chapel and so on - are used for Catholic or Christian worship. They belong to the Office of Public Works. An exception is the Anglican Kildare Cathedral in Co Wicklow. Honan Chapel is an early-c20 Celtic Revival structure. This produced some interesting buildings and, as one commentator has noted, the Dun Emer Guild. But the work of the second was, frankly, crude and the vestments looked as if they had been embroidered in Celtic interlace with string. Little refinement there. Where the Celtic Revival excelled was in stained glass.
As for the passivity of Irish congregations, whatever its cause it has been widely responsible for diminished liturgy for decades, going back long before Vatican II. One reason why liturgy is so bad in the United States and the United Kingdom is because of the preponderance of the Irish influence, but it is worse in the States. If ever an ordinary Catholic parish church tries to put on good music, the Irish cry is that it does not like the Mass being turned into a concert. The Mass is the Mass, not a performance. The homely Irish ditties that have replaced the chant and polyphony are positively toe-curling yet loved by the Irish contingent and enforced without argument.
Sorry if this sounds xenophobic but the minimalist Irish liturgical influence is likely to be unconquerable in the English-speaking world. Speaking for London, it is almost entirely in the non-Irish churches that good musical and liturgical standards apply. Go into the suburbs and you might as well be in rural Ireland, however Anglicized the Irish have become.
Father, believe me you are not being xenophobic. You're being depressingly accurate.
Yes, we must recall that the Celtic rite was really a Celtic Use (ala Salisbury). It is exquisitely beautiful in text but the chant is pretty much unrecoverable IIRC. Maybe someone here who knows more can remind us if the chant has any notation at all or simply unheighted neumes. Perhaps an indult chapel could be allowed to offer a working version of the Celtic Use which would be modified as more is learned over the years. Just a thought.
Michael O'Connor, whose ancestors took the Ireland-Newfoundland-America route.
I wish to address some of the points raised by Anthony Symondson which tend to be rather wide of the mark:
"None of the ancient Hiberno-Romanesque churches in Ireland - whether at Glendalough, Cormac's chapel and so on - are used for Catholic or Christian worship. They belong to the Office of Public Works. An exception is the Anglican Kildare Cathedral in Co Wicklow".
How about St. Brendan's in Clonfert? The last time I saw it was still in Anglican possession.
How about St. Flannan's in Kilaloe?
How about St. Cronan's, Tomgraney, Co. Clare?
How about the parish church at Freshford, Co. Kilkenny?
How about St. Crumnathy's, in Achonry, Co. Mayo?
How about St. Fachan's at Kilfenora?
How about St. Gobban's at Leighlin?
How about Tuam Cathedral?
All of these medieval churches are in use but not for Catholic worship since the reformation.
As for St. Bridget's Cathedral in Kildare, Co. Kildare, the present building is almost entirely a 19th century reconstruction of the gothic cathedral.
"They [early Hiberno Romanesque churches]belong to the Office of Public Works".
Usually what belongs to the Board of Works are the ruinous examples of this period which were vested with the Board of Works in 1869 (and after) following the disestablishment of the Anglican Church of Ireland. The vesting not unusually contained a clause prohibiting acts of Christian worship such sites.
"Honan Chapel is an early-c20 Celtic Revival structure. This produced some interesting buildings and, as one commentator has noted, the Dun Emer Guild. But the work of the second was, frankly, crude and the vestments looked as if they had been embroidered in Celtic interlace with string. Little refinement there. Where the Celtic Revival excelled was in stained glass".
No doubting the work of Harry Clarke and An Tur Glaoine in celtic revival glass. However, the assesment of Dun Emer is OTT. Please confer with Virginia Teehan's study and inventory of the chapel's liturgical vestments in "The Honan Chapel: A Golden Vision", Cork University press (2004). In particular I would pointout the case of the "Red and Gold Dossal" of 1916 which by any standards is far from crude.
"The homely Irish ditties that have replaced the chant and polyphony are positively toe-curling yet loved by the Irish contingent and enforced without argument".
Funny, many of the homely Irish ditties, like "Soul of My Saviour", are English 19th. century compositions - Fr. Faber being a particularly profuse author.
"Go into the suburbs [of London] and you might as well be in rural Ireland, however Anglicized the Irish have become".
Well, have you ever spent much time travelling the parish of rural Italy and France to say nothing of Spaina dn Portugal? In many of these, it would be difficult to find a good deal worse than your suburban London parishes - and as for passive congregations ma che scherzzo!!
Michael,
that's the first time I've heardthe Celtic Rite (more properly 'Rites', since it is a family of rites related together, like the Gallican Rite) described as a Use. All in all, the Celtic Liturgy seems to be a composite between the Roman and the Gallican Rites, with elements resembling that which is retained in the Ambrosian (the 'Dicamus omnes' Litany) and the Mozarabic (though these probably are under the Gallican family of Rites themselves).
Perhaps the reason we refer to the Celtic rites as a 'Rite' is the same reason we refer to the Dominican Rite as a Rite and not a 'Use'?
Patrick, yes, I think you are "right" about this. To me it does function more like a Use, but I agree that "rite" is the proper term here now that I think about it again. I guess I'm trying to keep a connection with Rome here. St. Patrick was a Roman by birth and the Roman influence was strong in Ireland. One has to admire those Irish monks though. They persevered in the face of all those Norse attacks.
The Liturgy in the Stowe Missal actually has the Roman Canon in it (under the heading 'Canon of the lord Pope Gelasius' or something), with variants and longer wording especially in the 'Memento, Domine's and an Anamnesis after the Words of Institution again like the Ambrosian and Mozarabic. At least during Dom Fernand Cabrol's time the Canon as written in the Missal was believed by some is one of the most ancient form of the Canon we have.
So the connection with Rome goes deeper than many present it to be, it seems.
If I might add, it was also in Ireland that the practice of confessing one's sins and giving (and performing) penance with the seal of secrecy originated, so that's another plus point for the Irish.
There are some Celtic chant mss available to us today, and some very pretty stuff they are, too.
"Sancti, Venite" (a Hymn for Communion from the Bangor Antiphonary, allegedly written by a contemporary of St. Patrick)
"Cormacus Scripsit" (a super early polyphony parody of a "Benedicamus Domino" setting)
There's also some very nice medieval Irish and Scottish chant albums that have come out recently, although it's kinda hard to find 'em. Canty's albums on Amazon have been misfiled, so you can only find them by album title instead of artist. Flame of Ireland is the name of their 2005 one -- it's Matins for the the feast of St. Brigit. They have a medieval Office for St. Patrick album coming out this month.
There's also an album about ten years old by some small academic group that was recorded in one of those tiny little chapels, and was of all the really early fragments. But I didn't buy it when I saw the tiny little webpage, and I haven't been able to find it since. The choir Anuna does some of the early stuff, but their liner notes were so unhelpful that I didn't realize they hadn't just made the chants up.
There seems to be a good bit of this stuff sung at music festivals in the UK and Ireland, also, but it's under the radar here. Considering the huge number of Celtic music fans and the huge number of them still not apprised of how old of records the Irish and Scots had, I think music directors would find people would be very thrilled to hear and learn bits of medieval Irish music. It would also be good apologetics, as many fans of Celtic stuff think that all the cool stuff stopped when paganism went away, and that those mean old monks (who copied down all those pagan myths and drew those cool Celtic pictures they copy) were uncreative.
Re: Romanesque and Byzantine stuff --
Yes, the more I see late antique art and Byzantine stuff, and the more I read late antique poetry, the more I understand where the Irish were coming from. It's not that they copied everything, but that they were operating inside an international Christian tradition as well as more local ones. (Which is exactly the way folks from Celtic countries seem to like it.)
PS. Those were just examples above, not an exhaustive list. I'm far from an expert on this stuff; it's been under my radar, too.
This books.google.com preview of the most recent volume of A New History of Ireland contains some modern notation of some of the chant mss. Enjoy!
http://books.google.com/books?
id...WhETS2OXF8IWLHg
Commenting by HaloScan
