Maybe the expectations will work in favor of this liturgy. The music lineup is deeply disturbing -- but maybe the glory of the occasion, the celebrant, and all the rest will shine through it all.
The wideshot of the sanctuary is impressive compared with the designs I've seen for NYC.
Some of the music so far was not good at all in execution, not even referring to selection. Hopefully that's why folks got early spots.
Folks, I understand the communion debate, and I don't devalue it.
But, the topic here is the Mass itself in view of the Benedictine liturgical reform.
Anything otherwise is going to be deleted.
You can delete this if you want: the commentators on the video feed from uspapalvisit.org are talking about the baseball stadium and the games played there. Could they please shut up?
If this is what the altar will look like, it's beautiful !! How could anyone complain? It actually looks 100% Catholic.
Nice to see a shot of real nuns....not the usuall layclothes 65 yrs. old+ femminist nuns.
With this setting, Maybe the music won't be as bad as anticipated.
Mr Tribe,
I understand that this website is about the liturgy, but the Blessed Sacrament is the source, center and summit of the Liturgy.
That "Benedictine" candle arrangement and the whole liturgical setup is centered around the Sacrifice of Holy Mass and the Blessed Sacrament, and not the other way around.
God bless you.
Dan,
I already acknowledged the importance and value of that discussion, so to imply some sort of aestheticism is really outside the pale.
The point is, this particular thread attempts to focus on another aspect, particularly at this time.
Watch the Mass, see what happens, then comment. But if we go down this road now, all the other issues we are trying to look at will be lost.
Shawn (et. al.), what's your opinion of the cantor making his/her voice heard during such a hymn as Holy God We Praise Thy Name when the congregation/choir doesn't need a stand-out voice to guide them?
I see a Dominican in the choir I think.
Is all the confession face to face? Or did they provide for anonymous confession?
And things to remember for next time:
Make purple stoles available for the confessors.
Are all those extra clergy who processed in early and independently concelebrating? If so isn't it kind of liturgically strange to sever the procession that way? I understand the need for it to a certain extent... but it almost seems preferable that they would simply sit in choir then.
(The Pope looks tired today.)
jeffrey - yes, well put, it was the presence of Peter's successor that eased many of our sore feet outside the National Shrine yesterday - there was so much joy! I really hope that despite any frustrations we might feel regarding some liturgical aspects, that we don't lose sight of that immense joy and gratitude at having the Pope among us.
May I bring a drop of British "cool it" to some if the post on this and other thread? The Holy Father has not yet even arrived, and already you are biting each other's head off! Wait and see, and above all pray, don't fight.
In respect of some of the comments about moderation I have sen over the last few days, remember Mr Tribe runs this blog, and has a right (with his chosen colleagues) to keep it on course. Some posters seem to think they can say what they like,and hijack the threads. Isn't that awfully like the feminists and liberal hijacking the Church which the same people do much abhor. Think about it.
Sorry to be off-post myself. To redeem myself, I can only say that those who cautioned patience in the light of the crucifix the people at Vespers were right. Indeed the same had happened at the St Peter's penance service for youth, where the cross faced the church. As indeed the Cross faces us on the Papal alter on Good Friday!
The CUA students did a very good job with the altar. And the baldichino looks nice. Archbishop Wuerl looks happy.
sorry about spelling, of which only "alter" (auto-correct blamed!) needs mentioning.
Yikes, archbishop, stop chattering about the 'faith family' and let the Holy Father, ya know, celebrate Mass.
It'd be nice to have seen this priest-cantor in choir dress.
The cantor (deacon?) in clericals singing the Kyrie and its tropes seems to have misplaced his cassock and surplice!
I've never heard the Missa de Angelis sung in English, but the Gloria turned out pretty nice. I especially liked the fact that it was relatively unaccompanied, with just some handbells at various points.
The palms are, however, dreadful.
Ummm...that would be psalms, not palms.
If the Psalm 104 doesn't cause the Holy father to do something about our music, it is a lost cause...who wrote that? Sounds like a cross between John Williams and Clause Debussy!
This psalm setting is pretty... hard on the ears. The higher-and-higher of the verses doesn't seem right, and the words are stretched all funny. The emphasis isn't on the right words.
And the accompaniment (especially just after the verses) seems downright odd.
The Psalm Setting was FRIGHTENING!
The psalm closes with dissonance?
It hurt to see the Gloria twisted the way it was done. I hope the jazzy psalm will provoke another Motu Proprio.
I can't write what I want to say.
I was trying to give the music the benefit of the doubt right up until that Psalm. Other than the Psalm though, it could be much worse. I'm still in a good mood because of the Vespers last night, though.
I couldn't stand "Lord send our your Spirit..." so I closed my Media Player but the sound transmission has not stopped, and it refuses to stop no matter what I do. It's as if the music has possessed my computer. Very creepy! I guess I'll have to shut down.
It is too bad they could not use the regular penitential rite but having done so, why not just psalm tone for the trope.
That being said, after the Holy Father said "Let us Pray" after the Gloria, I said, "yes, that I never hear that awful setting again." Why didn't they just sing it in Latin?
As for the Responsorial Psalm, it was so hard on the ears I was squinting in pain.
Well, whoever programmed this and in fact, whatever composer wrote this should just be embarassed.
How long, O LORD!
The Alleluia verses could have been set to the O FILII ET FILIAE...
This isn't the same organist as last night, is it?
Has anyone else noticed that the altar arrangement has been changed from the original design of the CUA students? Only one lectern is being used. Where the other lectern was supposed to have been is the paschal candle only. I am pleased that this change has been made since I couldn't understand why they were going to have one place for the first and second readings and another for the gospel. One ambo is most appropriate.
Is the Alleluia after the Gospel permitted?
My children almost rioted at the psalm... and they still listen to the Wiggles and Veggietales. My 7 year old daughter said "well that was creepy". And my 5 year old son just said "If another lady sings a bad song I'm gonna go cuckoo".
If my kids can figure this out why can't the people in charge?
The responsorial psalm was just gruesome. The extreme dissonance was causing me to shudder.
That Responsorial Psalm was abyssmal.
Can't turn on the sound since I'm at work, but at least the vestments are restrained and exhibit traditional Catholic motifs, and aren't the flashy "designed on Broadway" things that Old Marini foisted on JP II and B XVI (for a time). As for bad liturgical music, we'll just have to wait for some bishops and pastors with the guts to rip some pages out of hymnals and use them as kindling for the Easter vigil fire.
I thought the entrance hymn (a German hymn - "Laßt uns erfreuen herzlich sehr" - of 1623) was nice, and the Gloria was o.k., with some Latin at least, but I'm afraid I have to agree that the responsorial psalm was indescribable.
Please, for the love of God, pray after the homily, don't cause a scene.
Did the EWTN announcer just say "We have no notes about who is responsible for the music that the people have to endure today..."?? I could swear he just said that...
Fr. Nerhaus just wondered aloud who should get credit for introducing the Holy Father to the aesthetic affronts of the American Catholic experience! Hysterical!
So he DID say that... LOL
Chironomo: you heard right. That was brilliant!
Okay, at least visually it seems to have turned out pretty good.
I find the minimalism of the baldachin extremely underwhealming though not surprising (though the proportions are not too bad), *but* I will say the overall layout, the steps, the altar, the canopy feels far more 'liturgical' than, say, the sacred Lego set proposed for New York, and the throne for Benedict seems to me to do a decent job of highlighting the office rather than the man. I wish the altar was a bit broader and was solid, rather than with those spindly pseudo-Gothic arches. That being said, if such temporary canopies must be 'modern' in design for reasons of practicality, it's a pretty decent effort in terms of the basic layout, proportions, and size, though more ornament as always could help. Indeed, it's a pity the canopy for outdoor masses at St. Peter's isn't as lofty as this.
DC--two ambos are not unknown in some places, and indeed, most ancient examples have two, one for the epistle, and one for the Gospel, which I think shows the hierarchy of readings far better. That being said, there are theological rationales for either arrangement (and even the GIRM seems to suggest 1 is best), so I'm not going to complain.
...FAR to involved! Where's the silence! Inculturation at its best! The line "Lord forgive them, they know not what they do" comes to mind
I've never understood why these Cantors need to raise their hands or even arms to indicate to the congregation when they are to sing.
We know the Mass.
Put your arms down.
I confess that I did not look at the material posted online ahead of time, which gave the the 'play list', etc for the pope's visit to the US. I am pretty disappointed at the almost complete lack of Latin--it seems to go against what the Holy Father says about such big, international gatherings. It also contradicts what we have gotten used to in his masses in Rome.
Man, Fr. Neuhaus is not hiding hid displeasure!
So lacking in prayer, and real inner beauty, it's Broadway. I can't bear this.
Fr. Neuhaus is the best thing about the telecast so far... I liked the comment about multiculturalism...
Yikes!!! Flute and Guitar!! Oh No!!!!
I can see another Motu Proprio coming soon...
Oh my God - do you here that crazy offertory music!
Chironomo...you forgot to mention the kettle drums!
It reminds me of the psalm from the Invitatory..."Forty years I have endured that generation..."
Oh, no! Not salsa music....
Chironomo: "I liked the comment about multiculturalism..."
Yeah, that was a scream...and I read your comment just as the maracas and rock flutes kicked in.
This is simply dreadful.
I think those are "conga drums" and bongos.. my God!!
I have to say I am speechless at the music.
As Father Z would say "NOoooooooooooo"
Horrible music!!!
Gloria Estefan Offertory?
America, be embarassed be VERY embarassed!
Vox... where are you right now...? I'm working on my liturgy music selections right now at my desk with the Mass going on the TV... gotta say that this is inspirational muic to work on liturgy during...
This is dreadful. I think I will go back and watch last night's Vespers and block this out of my mind.
Chironomo...yes know...but that was distinctly a kettle drum in the first selection...oh, this is so baaaaadddddd!
Well, in my oversimplified chronology, Pope Benedict was forced to wear those ghastly vestments in Austria, then Marini I was retired. One can only hope this embarrassing display results in a similar corrective.
Yes.. the Kettle Drums were a bit much in the opening... my bad...
Please, not the Veni Creator - not like this!!!! totally inappropriate at this part of the Mass.... especially with the accompaniment
I was right... it is Indian Flute Music...
Okay, now cleansing with Veni, creator spiritus....but does it have to be accompanied by a flute????
"Perhaps those preparing for the occasion were not familiar with Benedict's views on liturgical action"...Father Newhaus!
Oh, wait, I am calming down now, I hear chant but NO, NO!
GET RID OF THE FLUTE AND BONGOS
I AM ANGRY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Veni Creator in the offertory...what next?
Raymond Arroyo: "Amazon flavor" with the music.
Chironomo: Which 'Vox' are you talking to? I am at home convalescing from some minor surgery. This music is giving me a dull pain in my side.
One good sign, in seriousness, is that the EWTN commentary is now openly mocking and criticizing the music, and noting how it is at odds with recent liturgical examples. There is hope that this cloud will have a silver lining.
Is the Pope wearing a pontificial dalmatic?
It's the MOC... Ahhh... I feel so at home now...
OH NO----NOT HAUGEN!
Not only that, given everything else, the MOC sounds nearly liturgical!
I was asking Vox Borealis, but it would be good to know where everybody is right now... later when your Grandchildren ask where you were when that awful Mass in DC was held, we'll all know...
What's sad is that the MOC has more dignity than the music previously inflicted on us...
WHAT?
ALL THAT NOISE...ALL THOSE INSTRUMENTS AND THEY CAN'T FIND BELLS FOR THE ELEVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE, send letters to MOC, Mons. Marini, in Rome. This can NEVER be allowed to happen again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!
Maybe the day will come when the CMAA is consulted about music for papal liturgies in the US.
I think the Holy Father just overrode the "Our Father" selection and forced them to chant it...I can't imagine they planned that...
I have a feeling we're going to hear about these things from Rome... B16 doesn't seem happy ....
Has anyone else noticed that in addition to being just bad, the music selections are all rather "dismal", even if done well.. I think Benedict just tried again to chime in over the cantor.. what's going on there!!
Lord what a mess!
I've enjoyed Fr. Neuhaus' sense of humor immensely during the coverage so far! I'm very disappointed and troubled also by the Communion/politician situation. But this is not new at all and we all know how complicated and damaging an issue it is, so let's please respect this blog, which concerns liturgical issues - I'm happy also to see that visually things seem to be working out at the Mass here in DC.
Looking back a few decades from now, will this liturgy be seen as the death nell of Amchurch liturgy?
Can they possibly ruin Ubi Caritas?
Where have all the propers of the Mass gone!!!!!!!!!!
Dreadful, and deteriorating. So sad -- and yet how many assisting don't know anything else. They are at home, and think the Pope now understands them. He understands more than they dream!
I just emailed the Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Washington with a brief but clear message of my appreciation for this embarrassment.
EVERYONE!
POST YOUR DISPLEASURE RIGHT HERE ON THE PAPAL VIST BLOG COMMENTS!
LET'S LET THEM HAVE IT!!!!!
http://usccb.wordpress.com/2008/...rk/#comment-
265
the music is simply awful. whoever is responsible for it must do lots of penance ...
I was just going to mention the applause! Tacky, tacky. Fr. Groeschel always says to applaud with one hand, please.
This comes to mind:
"Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion in the hand." -- Bl. Teresa of Calcutta
Just wait until the Mass in New York is compared and contrasted to this.
Night and day. Catholic and Episcopalian.
Here is the email address for the Archdiocese of Washington:
chancery@adw.org
The music has been terrible. I find it painful to watch this Mass for that reason. The communion music is just the worst as I am watching right now. Could we hope that this bad experience will bring a future good result of some kind?
I am praying now for the Holy Father 
We are all praying I hope... some good has to come from this... and I was right, the tune is "Blowin' in the Wind"..
Didn't he mention at the outset of his homily that the America is one chapter in the larger story that is salvation history? We need a better editor!
Make.....It......Stop......Pleeeeeaaaase!
The "source and summit"
What is this setting of Pange lingua gloriosi?
This may be good in the long-run. Surely never again will we see this in the future? Large open-air masses may be finished!
I see the Angelic Doctor is not good enough. His words had to be muddled tto!
The Pange Lingua is a "contemporary setting of the traditional chant" by Ricky Manalo. Obviously, they're trying to showcase the music of these modern American "liturgical composers". They just might fit them all in, too!
DC: "Just wait until the Mass in New York is compared and contrasted to this.
Night and day. Catholic and Episcopalian."
Um, are you saying the DC mass will seem Catholic compared to the one in NY? Ora pro nobis!
I agree with the comment above that this mass is a good representation of the typical american mass. Not the scale of course, but the sad quality.
Oh no..the one in NY will far surpass in terms of music
From one Vox to another...
I think DC is saying that there will be an Episcopalian influence in New York...which could be a good thing!
Hmmm..the papalvisit site seems to be crashed. I wonder why?
I was overjoyed last night during the vespers, because now the Holy Father knows that America does know something about liturgical music. But today I am also overjoyed-- for a different reason. Pope Benedict is hearing everything that's wrong with liturgical music at once! It's like when you take your car in to be fixed because it's making a funny noise, and for once in your life it actually MAKES that noise when the mechanic is listening. Only then can the problem be diagnosed and fixed. I hope the the Holy Father is now inspired to speak out and write a new encyclical about sacred music! It's time for Rome to be specific about what is not to be done. He's got plenty of examples today!
My greatest fear is that this will empower precisely those elements in parish ministry that Benedict's reforms had placed, to some degree, on the defensive. This my be seen (and used) by them as an affirmation that, in fact, the reform of the reform isn't needed, and is simply the reactionary impulse of aesthetes.
It's no different in Ireland.... Gospel choirs and the like. I as a Cathedral organist am at the point of becoming Anglican!!!!! (
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech.'
Great point, Niebla. There's nothing like eduring this first hand. Words would never suffice...
Boredoftheworld...
I can't imagine that this will go wihout comment from the Holy Father, even if indirectly. I am still looking for some good to come of this.
Visually, this Mass is definitely an improvement over past open air US Papal Masses. The music, alas, is a disappointment. Onto New York!Tom
The SSPX will have a field day on thir blogs!!!!!!!!
This is the man in charge of the music for the DC Mass.
http://benedictinamerica.blogspo...mas-
stehle.html
Thank God for Placido Domingo.
I thought the applause at the outset of Panis Angelicus might have been an indication of relief at hearing a decent song.
Woo-Hoo!! (whistle -whistle)... was he just asking the Holy Father for forgiveness...??
I wonder if our Dear Holy Father could pretend that it just didn't happen. I am very embarassed and humiliated with this. It most certainly is not representative of all "American" Catholics. Vespers last night was so deeply faithfilled.
Well, this was far, far, far worse than I ever imagined. Hoo boy.
I was expressing relief at the respite from awful music. Of course, it is not appropriate for Mass.
Perhaps the fact that the Holy Father left his chair to thank Mr Domingo is a clear indication of his preferences. That was a moving gesture, as was Mr Domingo's very appropriate response.
I'm so glad I'm just looking at the photos and not hearing the music...
I have listened to most of this Mass on satellite radio, as I listened I confess I was enraged at the insult this music must be to the Holy Father. Yes, we have cause to be embarrassed and ashamed for the insult given. This music fills me with the urge to vomit.
Email papalvisit@ewtn.com
For those of you who are talking of defecting to Anglicanism, let me just offer you this visual warning:
http://mcj.bloghorn.com/Images/f...s/
funnykate.jpg
THANKS for that! Matthew of the Holy Whapping...
I have a strong feeling that what has happened here will change things...
Alot of Archbishop Wuerl's personal liturgical tastes are evident at the Mass, most notably the music and vestments. The Holy Father's own chasuble is longer in the front than in the back. It was a consolation, though, to see Placido Domingo genuflect and kiss the papal ring- it's good to see that in Latin culture for the most part, we still do not lose sight of whose presence we're in.
Fr Neuhaus is nailing it...
LOL... Fr. Neuhaus is HILARIOUS now... said that his Mass deviated from just about everything that Benedict has written about for 30 years...
Fr. Neuhaus is being very blunt about what has happened.
I have a strong feeling that what has happened here will change things...
jeffrey, from your keyboard to God's eyes ... I'm not holding my breath, though.
I agree with some of the other postings....yes, the music and gestures at this Mass are dreadful. However, if the Holy Father did not witness these first hand, he may not know how bad things have become in the United States. This will give him more fuel to make reforms!
Thank you Fr. Neuhaus. 100% on target. This mass was an insult to the Pope. I feel humiliated for him.
Whats that email address? papalvisit@ewtn.com?
We can only hope that those with some influence will take note of what happened today.. Fr. Neuhaus just called this liturgy a "liturgical stew"...
Sorry, missed it -- where is Fr. Neuhaus commenting?
I LOVE YOU FR NEUHAUS - Go tell it as it is! WOW.
Mish-mash...grand liturgical stew..Fr. Neuhaus.
Alas, my comment on the USCCB Papal Visit website/blog was also deleted:
"The homily was wonderful. The music selections and "performance" have been an embarrassing hijacking of our Catholic tradition and liturgy trotted "on stage" for our whole nation to witness. I pray that our Holy Father teaches our American Church something about the Divine Liturgy as a result of this horrific, embarrassing experience.
"Pray to God for a return to an understanding of what His Mass is."
http://
viewers.multicastmedia.co...nglish_100k.asx
MrsDarwin - on EWTN - go online if you don't have it on your channel lineup - www.ewtn.com - then look for the live TV option.
Fr. Neuhaus did make good comments about the music. Terrible.
The jazzy Hispanic tune was awful....even one of the Fox News Commentators all but said it was inappropriate. Bill Hemmer. He's on Fox, and a good Catholic. He was praising the beautiful music last night, and the hymns they were warming up with before the Mass. But he was appaled by the garbage music picked during the Mass.
Conga drums, flutes (sounded like Native American music) etc.
It's the USA Catholic Church. What you you expect?
Neuhasis on EWTN... really harping on the music...
The Holy Father's dramatic gesture towards Placido Domingo was clearly a statement with regard to the rest of the musical nonsense forced upon the Vicar of Christ.
Joan Lewis said this was probably a first for Benedict XVI. Let's hope it is a last as well.
Thankfully the Holy Father is a bigger man than I, and he will appreciate the enthusiasm and the love of the people there.
" I wonder if our Dear Holy Father could pretend that it just didn't happen."
No, that is absolutely what must not happen. Instead, let him attack with great vigor the liturgical rot that forces most Catholics in the world to endure this kind of dreck every single Sunday.
As an African American with creole roots in Louisiana the presence of this protestant gospel music is particularly offensive. For all we endured in resisting the missionary efforts of the "diable protestant" is this is the thanks we get? The Catholic way is one of silence and quietness. Our ancestors sat in silence before the Blessed Sacrament in segregated churches in Washington and throughout the South knew this and would not have approved of the introduction of this outward directed music from the nightclub and juke joint. What has happened today in Washington just gave the nod of approval to Churches like St. Sabina's in Chicago who represent the gospel evangelical wing of the US church. One shame after another. I am so ashamed of all this.
Maybe we should all email the Vatican with apologies to the Pope!
The sooner Pope Benedict celebrates a TLM - the better!
Vox Cantor, they are putting their heads in the sand. The USCCB needs to be disbanded. Cardinal Ratzinger was not fond of the episcopal conferences..
Fr. Neuhaus is really letting them have it! GOD BLESS THAT MAN AND EWTN!
As an American I am embarrassed and ashamed at the utter GARBAGE that our Holy Father was subjected to! May he NEVER suffer such torture again!
I hope and pray that this is the straw that breaks the camel's back and that the Holy Father will declare such music prohibited!
Write to:
Mgr. Guidio Marini
Citta del Vaticano
Vaticano 00120
USCCB can delete away, but someone is reading those posts in order to delete. They are hearing, even if they are not listening. So keep posting and writing them. They're getting the message, one way or another.
That liturgy was an absolute embarrassment to the United States and to the Church.
It would have been better if it never happened.
Has anyone checked to see if Bl. John XXIII's body is turning over in his grave under the altar in St. Peter's? You could probably drive a turbine the way it's spinning right now.
For those with blogs who would complain on the USCCB website, a suggestion: Cross-post your thoughts on your own blog first. That way they become part of the public record whether or not the USCCB deletes them on their own site.
We should do our best to make sure somebody is held accountable at the USCCB for their censoring of the voices of the faithful. Are they forgetting what the US in USCCB stands for? This story cannot fade away.
Mick, no offense intended (especially if it was a fast typing slip up - I'm guilty of those, too), but Msgr. Marini's first name is Guido. If we are going to send him courteous letters, it helps our credibility and his openness to our lamentations to spell his name correctly. Carry on!
I hope that someone will post a transcript of Fr. Neuhaus's comments... Anyone taking notes?
In this day and age, electronic blitzcommentary is not so much utterly useless but quite counterproductive and probably an occasion of sin for some. So go right ahead if you want to undermine your own cause. Just look in the mirror when you wonder why you don't get what you want.