Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
Maybe the expectations will work in favor of this liturgy. The music lineup is deeply disturbing -- but maybe the glory of the occasion, the celebrant, and all the rest will shine through it all.
The wideshot of the sanctuary is impressive compared with the designs I've seen for NYC.
Some of the music so far was not good at all in execution, not even referring to selection. Hopefully that's why folks got early spots.
Folks, I understand the communion debate, and I don't devalue it.
But, the topic here is the Mass itself in view of the Benedictine liturgical reform.
Anything otherwise is going to be deleted.
You can delete this if you want: the commentators on the video feed from uspapalvisit.org are talking about the baseball stadium and the games played there. Could they please shut up?
If this is what the altar will look like, it's beautiful !! How could anyone complain? It actually looks 100% Catholic.
Nice to see a shot of real nuns....not the usuall layclothes 65 yrs. old+ femminist nuns.
With this setting, Maybe the music won't be as bad as anticipated.
Mr Tribe,
I understand that this website is about the liturgy, but the Blessed Sacrament is the source, center and summit of the Liturgy.
That "Benedictine" candle arrangement and the whole liturgical setup is centered around the Sacrifice of Holy Mass and the Blessed Sacrament, and not the other way around.
God bless you.
Dan,
I already acknowledged the importance and value of that discussion, so to imply some sort of aestheticism is really outside the pale.
The point is, this particular thread attempts to focus on another aspect, particularly at this time.
Watch the Mass, see what happens, then comment. But if we go down this road now, all the other issues we are trying to look at will be lost.
Shawn (et. al.), what's your opinion of the cantor making his/her voice heard during such a hymn as Holy God We Praise Thy Name when the congregation/choir doesn't need a stand-out voice to guide them?
I see a Dominican in the choir I think.
Is all the confession face to face? Or did they provide for anonymous confession?
And things to remember for next time:
Make purple stoles available for the confessors.
Are all those extra clergy who processed in early and independently concelebrating? If so isn't it kind of liturgically strange to sever the procession that way? I understand the need for it to a certain extent... but it almost seems preferable that they would simply sit in choir then.
(The Pope looks tired today.)
jeffrey - yes, well put, it was the presence of Peter's successor that eased many of our sore feet outside the National Shrine yesterday - there was so much joy! I really hope that despite any frustrations we might feel regarding some liturgical aspects, that we don't lose sight of that immense joy and gratitude at having the Pope among us.
May I bring a drop of British "cool it" to some if the post on this and other thread? The Holy Father has not yet even arrived, and already you are biting each other's head off! Wait and see, and above all pray, don't fight.
In respect of some of the comments about moderation I have sen over the last few days, remember Mr Tribe runs this blog, and has a right (with his chosen colleagues) to keep it on course. Some posters seem to think they can say what they like,and hijack the threads. Isn't that awfully like the feminists and liberal hijacking the Church which the same people do much abhor. Think about it.
Sorry to be off-post myself. To redeem myself, I can only say that those who cautioned patience in the light of the crucifix the people at Vespers were right. Indeed the same had happened at the St Peter's penance service for youth, where the cross faced the church. As indeed the Cross faces us on the Papal alter on Good Friday!
The CUA students did a very good job with the altar. And the baldichino looks nice. Archbishop Wuerl looks happy.
sorry about spelling, of which only "alter" (auto-correct blamed!) needs mentioning.
Yikes, archbishop, stop chattering about the 'faith family' and let the Holy Father, ya know, celebrate Mass.
It'd be nice to have seen this priest-cantor in choir dress.
The cantor (deacon?) in clericals singing the Kyrie and its tropes seems to have misplaced his cassock and surplice!
I've never heard the Missa de Angelis sung in English, but the Gloria turned out pretty nice. I especially liked the fact that it was relatively unaccompanied, with just some handbells at various points.
The palms are, however, dreadful.
Ummm...that would be psalms, not palms.
If the Psalm 104 doesn't cause the Holy father to do something about our music, it is a lost cause...who wrote that? Sounds like a cross between John Williams and Clause Debussy!
This psalm setting is pretty... hard on the ears. The higher-and-higher of the verses doesn't seem right, and the words are stretched all funny. The emphasis isn't on the right words.
And the accompaniment (especially just after the verses) seems downright odd.
The Psalm Setting was FRIGHTENING!
The psalm closes with dissonance?
It hurt to see the Gloria twisted the way it was done. I hope the jazzy psalm will provoke another Motu Proprio.
I can't write what I want to say.
I was trying to give the music the benefit of the doubt right up until that Psalm. Other than the Psalm though, it could be much worse. I'm still in a good mood because of the Vespers last night, though.
I couldn't stand "Lord send our your Spirit..." so I closed my Media Player but the sound transmission has not stopped, and it refuses to stop no matter what I do. It's as if the music has possessed my computer. Very creepy! I guess I'll have to shut down.
It is too bad they could not use the regular penitential rite but having done so, why not just psalm tone for the trope.
That being said, after the Holy Father said "Let us Pray" after the Gloria, I said, "yes, that I never hear that awful setting again." Why didn't they just sing it in Latin?
As for the Responsorial Psalm, it was so hard on the ears I was squinting in pain.
Well, whoever programmed this and in fact, whatever composer wrote this should just be embarassed.
How long, O LORD!
The Alleluia verses could have been set to the O FILII ET FILIAE...
This isn't the same organist as last night, is it?
Has anyone else noticed that the altar arrangement has been changed from the original design of the CUA students? Only one lectern is being used. Where the other lectern was supposed to have been is the paschal candle only. I am pleased that this change has been made since I couldn't understand why they were going to have one place for the first and second readings and another for the gospel. One ambo is most appropriate.
Is the Alleluia after the Gospel permitted?
My children almost rioted at the psalm... and they still listen to the Wiggles and Veggietales. My 7 year old daughter said "well that was creepy". And my 5 year old son just said "If another lady sings a bad song I'm gonna go cuckoo".
If my kids can figure this out why can't the people in charge?
The responsorial psalm was just gruesome. The extreme dissonance was causing me to shudder.
That Responsorial Psalm was abyssmal.
Can't turn on the sound since I'm at work, but at least the vestments are restrained and exhibit traditional Catholic motifs, and aren't the flashy "designed on Broadway" things that Old Marini foisted on JP II and B XVI (for a time). As for bad liturgical music, we'll just have to wait for some bishops and pastors with the guts to rip some pages out of hymnals and use them as kindling for the Easter vigil fire.
I thought the entrance hymn (a German hymn - "Laßt uns erfreuen herzlich sehr" - of 1623) was nice, and the Gloria was o.k., with some Latin at least, but I'm afraid I have to agree that the responsorial psalm was indescribable.
Please, for the love of God, pray after the homily, don't cause a scene.
Did the EWTN announcer just say "We have no notes about who is responsible for the music that the people have to endure today..."?? I could swear he just said that...
Fr. Nerhaus just wondered aloud who should get credit for introducing the Holy Father to the aesthetic affronts of the American Catholic experience! Hysterical!
So he DID say that... LOL
Chironomo: you heard right. That was brilliant!
Okay, at least visually it seems to have turned out pretty good.
I find the minimalism of the baldachin extremely underwhealming though not surprising (though the proportions are not too bad), *but* I will say the overall layout, the steps, the altar, the canopy feels far more 'liturgical' than, say, the sacred Lego set proposed for New York, and the throne for Benedict seems to me to do a decent job of highlighting the office rather than the man. I wish the altar was a bit broader and was solid, rather than with those spindly pseudo-Gothic arches. That being said, if such temporary canopies must be 'modern' in design for reasons of practicality, it's a pretty decent effort in terms of the basic layout, proportions, and size, though more ornament as always could help. Indeed, it's a pity the canopy for outdoor masses at St. Peter's isn't as lofty as this.
DC--two ambos are not unknown in some places, and indeed, most ancient examples have two, one for the epistle, and one for the Gospel, which I think shows the hierarchy of readings far better. That being said, there are theological rationales for either arrangement (and even the GIRM seems to suggest 1 is best), so I'm not going to complain.
...FAR to involved! Where's the silence! Inculturation at its best! The line "Lord forgive them, they know not what they do" comes to mind
I've never understood why these Cantors need to raise their hands or even arms to indicate to the congregation when they are to sing.
We know the Mass.
Put your arms down.
I confess that I did not look at the material posted online ahead of time, which gave the the 'play list', etc for the pope's visit to the US. I am pretty disappointed at the almost complete lack of Latin--it seems to go against what the Holy Father says about such big, international gatherings. It also contradicts what we have gotten used to in his masses in Rome.
Man, Fr. Neuhaus is not hiding hid displeasure!
So lacking in prayer, and real inner beauty, it's Broadway. I can't bear this.
Fr. Neuhaus is the best thing about the telecast so far... I liked the comment about multiculturalism...
Yikes!!! Flute and Guitar!! Oh No!!!!
I can see another Motu Proprio coming soon...
Oh my God - do you here that crazy offertory music!
Chironomo...you forgot to mention the kettle drums!
It reminds me of the psalm from the Invitatory..."Forty years I have endured that generation..."
Oh, no! Not salsa music....
Chironomo: "I liked the comment about multiculturalism..."
Yeah, that was a scream...and I read your comment just as the maracas and rock flutes kicked in.
This is simply dreadful.
I think those are "conga drums" and bongos.. my God!!
I have to say I am speechless at the music.
As Father Z would say "NOoooooooooooo"
Horrible music!!!
Gloria Estefan Offertory?
America, be embarassed be VERY embarassed!
Vox... where are you right now...? I'm working on my liturgy music selections right now at my desk with the Mass going on the TV... gotta say that this is inspirational muic to work on liturgy during...
This is dreadful. I think I will go back and watch last night's Vespers and block this out of my mind.
Chironomo...yes know...but that was distinctly a kettle drum in the first selection...oh, this is so baaaaadddddd!
Well, in my oversimplified chronology, Pope Benedict was forced to wear those ghastly vestments in Austria, then Marini I was retired. One can only hope this embarrassing display results in a similar corrective.
Yes.. the Kettle Drums were a bit much in the opening... my bad...
Please, not the Veni Creator - not like this!!!! totally inappropriate at this part of the Mass.... especially with the accompaniment
I was right... it is Indian Flute Music...
Okay, now cleansing with Veni, creator spiritus....but does it have to be accompanied by a flute????
"Perhaps those preparing for the occasion were not familiar with Benedict's views on liturgical action"...Father Newhaus!
Oh, wait, I am calming down now, I hear chant but NO, NO!
GET RID OF THE FLUTE AND BONGOS
I AM ANGRY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Veni Creator in the offertory...what next?
Raymond Arroyo: "Amazon flavor" with the music.
Chironomo: Which 'Vox' are you talking to? I am at home convalescing from some minor surgery. This music is giving me a dull pain in my side.
One good sign, in seriousness, is that the EWTN commentary is now openly mocking and criticizing the music, and noting how it is at odds with recent liturgical examples. There is hope that this cloud will have a silver lining.
Is the Pope wearing a pontificial dalmatic?
It's the MOC... Ahhh... I feel so at home now...
OH NO----NOT HAUGEN!
Not only that, given everything else, the MOC sounds nearly liturgical!
I was asking Vox Borealis, but it would be good to know where everybody is right now... later when your Grandchildren ask where you were when that awful Mass in DC was held, we'll all know...
What's sad is that the MOC has more dignity than the music previously inflicted on us...
WHAT?
ALL THAT NOISE...ALL THOSE INSTRUMENTS AND THEY CAN'T FIND BELLS FOR THE ELEVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE, send letters to MOC, Mons. Marini, in Rome. This can NEVER be allowed to happen again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!
Maybe the day will come when the CMAA is consulted about music for papal liturgies in the US.
I think the Holy Father just overrode the "Our Father" selection and forced them to chant it...I can't imagine they planned that...
I have a feeling we're going to hear about these things from Rome... B16 doesn't seem happy ....
Has anyone else noticed that in addition to being just bad, the music selections are all rather "dismal", even if done well.. I think Benedict just tried again to chime in over the cantor.. what's going on there!!
Lord what a mess!
I've enjoyed Fr. Neuhaus' sense of humor immensely during the coverage so far! I'm very disappointed and troubled also by the Communion/politician situation. But this is not new at all and we all know how complicated and damaging an issue it is, so let's please respect this blog, which concerns liturgical issues - I'm happy also to see that visually things seem to be working out at the Mass here in DC.
Looking back a few decades from now, will this liturgy be seen as the death nell of Amchurch liturgy?
Can they possibly ruin Ubi Caritas?
Where have all the propers of the Mass gone!!!!!!!!!!
Dreadful, and deteriorating. So sad -- and yet how many assisting don't know anything else. They are at home, and think the Pope now understands them. He understands more than they dream!
I just emailed the Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Washington with a brief but clear message of my appreciation for this embarrassment.
EVERYONE!
POST YOUR DISPLEASURE RIGHT HERE ON THE PAPAL VIST BLOG COMMENTS!
LET'S LET THEM HAVE IT!!!!!
http://usccb.wordpress.com/2008/...rk/#comment-
265
the music is simply awful. whoever is responsible for it must do lots of penance ...
I was just going to mention the applause! Tacky, tacky. Fr. Groeschel always says to applaud with one hand, please.
This comes to mind:
"Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion in the hand." -- Bl. Teresa of Calcutta
Just wait until the Mass in New York is compared and contrasted to this.
Night and day. Catholic and Episcopalian.
Here is the email address for the Archdiocese of Washington:
chancery@adw.org
The music has been terrible. I find it painful to watch this Mass for that reason. The communion music is just the worst as I am watching right now. Could we hope that this bad experience will bring a future good result of some kind?
I am praying now for the Holy Father :(
We are all praying I hope... some good has to come from this... and I was right, the tune is "Blowin' in the Wind"..
Didn't he mention at the outset of his homily that the America is one chapter in the larger story that is salvation history? We need a better editor!
Make.....It......Stop......Pleeeeeaaaase!
The "source and summit"
What is this setting of Pange lingua gloriosi?
This may be good in the long-run. Surely never again will we see this in the future? Large open-air masses may be finished!
I see the Angelic Doctor is not good enough. His words had to be muddled tto!
The Pange Lingua is a "contemporary setting of the traditional chant" by Ricky Manalo. Obviously, they're trying to showcase the music of these modern American "liturgical composers". They just might fit them all in, too!
DC: "Just wait until the Mass in New York is compared and contrasted to this.
Night and day. Catholic and Episcopalian."
Um, are you saying the DC mass will seem Catholic compared to the one in NY? Ora pro nobis!
I agree with the comment above that this mass is a good representation of the typical american mass. Not the scale of course, but the sad quality.
Oh no..the one in NY will far surpass in terms of music
From one Vox to another...
I think DC is saying that there will be an Episcopalian influence in New York...which could be a good thing!
Hmmm..the papalvisit site seems to be crashed. I wonder why?
I was overjoyed last night during the vespers, because now the Holy Father knows that America does know something about liturgical music. But today I am also overjoyed-- for a different reason. Pope Benedict is hearing everything that's wrong with liturgical music at once! It's like when you take your car in to be fixed because it's making a funny noise, and for once in your life it actually MAKES that noise when the mechanic is listening. Only then can the problem be diagnosed and fixed. I hope the the Holy Father is now inspired to speak out and write a new encyclical about sacred music! It's time for Rome to be specific about what is not to be done. He's got plenty of examples today!
My greatest fear is that this will empower precisely those elements in parish ministry that Benedict's reforms had placed, to some degree, on the defensive. This my be seen (and used) by them as an affirmation that, in fact, the reform of the reform isn't needed, and is simply the reactionary impulse of aesthetes.
It's no different in Ireland.... Gospel choirs and the like. I as a Cathedral organist am at the point of becoming Anglican!!!!! (
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech.'
Great point, Niebla. There's nothing like eduring this first hand. Words would never suffice...
Boredoftheworld...
I can't imagine that this will go wihout comment from the Holy Father, even if indirectly. I am still looking for some good to come of this.
Visually, this Mass is definitely an improvement over past open air US Papal Masses. The music, alas, is a disappointment. Onto New York!Tom
The SSPX will have a field day on thir blogs!!!!!!!!
This is the man in charge of the music for the DC Mass.
http://benedictinamerica.blogspo...mas-
stehle.html
Thank God for Placido Domingo.
I thought the applause at the outset of Panis Angelicus might have been an indication of relief at hearing a decent song.
Woo-Hoo!! (whistle -whistle)... was he just asking the Holy Father for forgiveness...??
I wonder if our Dear Holy Father could pretend that it just didn't happen. I am very embarassed and humiliated with this. It most certainly is not representative of all "American" Catholics. Vespers last night was so deeply faithfilled.
Well, this was far, far, far worse than I ever imagined. Hoo boy.
I was expressing relief at the respite from awful music. Of course, it is not appropriate for Mass.
Perhaps the fact that the Holy Father left his chair to thank Mr Domingo is a clear indication of his preferences. That was a moving gesture, as was Mr Domingo's very appropriate response.
I'm so glad I'm just looking at the photos and not hearing the music...
I have listened to most of this Mass on satellite radio, as I listened I confess I was enraged at the insult this music must be to the Holy Father. Yes, we have cause to be embarrassed and ashamed for the insult given. This music fills me with the urge to vomit.
Email papalvisit@ewtn.com
For those of you who are talking of defecting to Anglicanism, let me just offer you this visual warning:
http://mcj.bloghorn.com/Images/f...s/
funnykate.jpg
THANKS for that! Matthew of the Holy Whapping...
I have a strong feeling that what has happened here will change things...
Alot of Archbishop Wuerl's personal liturgical tastes are evident at the Mass, most notably the music and vestments. The Holy Father's own chasuble is longer in the front than in the back. It was a consolation, though, to see Placido Domingo genuflect and kiss the papal ring- it's good to see that in Latin culture for the most part, we still do not lose sight of whose presence we're in.
Fr Neuhaus is nailing it...
LOL... Fr. Neuhaus is HILARIOUS now... said that his Mass deviated from just about everything that Benedict has written about for 30 years...
Fr. Neuhaus is being very blunt about what has happened.
I have a strong feeling that what has happened here will change things...
jeffrey, from your keyboard to God's eyes ... I'm not holding my breath, though.
I agree with some of the other postings....yes, the music and gestures at this Mass are dreadful. However, if the Holy Father did not witness these first hand, he may not know how bad things have become in the United States. This will give him more fuel to make reforms!
Thank you Fr. Neuhaus. 100% on target. This mass was an insult to the Pope. I feel humiliated for him.
Whats that email address? papalvisit@ewtn.com?
We can only hope that those with some influence will take note of what happened today.. Fr. Neuhaus just called this liturgy a "liturgical stew"...
Sorry, missed it -- where is Fr. Neuhaus commenting?
I LOVE YOU FR NEUHAUS - Go tell it as it is! WOW.
Mish-mash...grand liturgical stew..Fr. Neuhaus.
Alas, my comment on the USCCB Papal Visit website/blog was also deleted:
"The homily was wonderful. The music selections and "performance" have been an embarrassing hijacking of our Catholic tradition and liturgy trotted "on stage" for our whole nation to witness. I pray that our Holy Father teaches our American Church something about the Divine Liturgy as a result of this horrific, embarrassing experience.
"Pray to God for a return to an understanding of what His Mass is."
http://
viewers.multicastmedia.co...nglish_100k.asx
MrsDarwin - on EWTN - go online if you don't have it on your channel lineup - www.ewtn.com - then look for the live TV option.
Fr. Neuhaus did make good comments about the music. Terrible.
The jazzy Hispanic tune was awful....even one of the Fox News Commentators all but said it was inappropriate. Bill Hemmer. He's on Fox, and a good Catholic. He was praising the beautiful music last night, and the hymns they were warming up with before the Mass. But he was appaled by the garbage music picked during the Mass.
Conga drums, flutes (sounded like Native American music) etc.
It's the USA Catholic Church. What you you expect?
Neuhasis on EWTN... really harping on the music...
The Holy Father's dramatic gesture towards Placido Domingo was clearly a statement with regard to the rest of the musical nonsense forced upon the Vicar of Christ.
Joan Lewis said this was probably a first for Benedict XVI. Let's hope it is a last as well.
Thankfully the Holy Father is a bigger man than I, and he will appreciate the enthusiasm and the love of the people there.
" I wonder if our Dear Holy Father could pretend that it just didn't happen."
No, that is absolutely what must not happen. Instead, let him attack with great vigor the liturgical rot that forces most Catholics in the world to endure this kind of dreck every single Sunday.
As an African American with creole roots in Louisiana the presence of this protestant gospel music is particularly offensive. For all we endured in resisting the missionary efforts of the "diable protestant" is this is the thanks we get? The Catholic way is one of silence and quietness. Our ancestors sat in silence before the Blessed Sacrament in segregated churches in Washington and throughout the South knew this and would not have approved of the introduction of this outward directed music from the nightclub and juke joint. What has happened today in Washington just gave the nod of approval to Churches like St. Sabina's in Chicago who represent the gospel evangelical wing of the US church. One shame after another. I am so ashamed of all this.
Maybe we should all email the Vatican with apologies to the Pope!
The sooner Pope Benedict celebrates a TLM - the better!
Vox Cantor, they are putting their heads in the sand. The USCCB needs to be disbanded. Cardinal Ratzinger was not fond of the episcopal conferences..
Fr. Neuhaus is really letting them have it! GOD BLESS THAT MAN AND EWTN!
As an American I am embarrassed and ashamed at the utter GARBAGE that our Holy Father was subjected to! May he NEVER suffer such torture again!
I hope and pray that this is the straw that breaks the camel's back and that the Holy Father will declare such music prohibited!
Write to:
Mgr. Guidio Marini
Citta del Vaticano
Vaticano 00120
USCCB can delete away, but someone is reading those posts in order to delete. They are hearing, even if they are not listening. So keep posting and writing them. They're getting the message, one way or another.
That liturgy was an absolute embarrassment to the United States and to the Church.
It would have been better if it never happened.
Has anyone checked to see if Bl. John XXIII's body is turning over in his grave under the altar in St. Peter's? You could probably drive a turbine the way it's spinning right now.
For those with blogs who would complain on the USCCB website, a suggestion: Cross-post your thoughts on your own blog first. That way they become part of the public record whether or not the USCCB deletes them on their own site.
We should do our best to make sure somebody is held accountable at the USCCB for their censoring of the voices of the faithful. Are they forgetting what the US in USCCB stands for? This story cannot fade away.
Mick, no offense intended (especially if it was a fast typing slip up - I'm guilty of those, too), but Msgr. Marini's first name is Guido. If we are going to send him courteous letters, it helps our credibility and his openness to our lamentations to spell his name correctly. Carry on!
I hope that someone will post a transcript of Fr. Neuhaus's comments... Anyone taking notes?
In this day and age, electronic blitzcommentary is not so much utterly useless but quite counterproductive and probably an occasion of sin for some. So go right ahead if you want to undermine your own cause. Just look in the mirror when you wonder why you don't get what you want.
I feel very sorry for the various ethnic Catholic elements who had to endure the stereotypical insult to their cultures. This is not diversity but rather ethnic disharmony. I noticed the Ukrainian Bishop in the recessional who was carrying a shopping bag. Might have had a bottle of vodka in it to get through this tiresome event.
"I hope that someone will post a transcript of Fr. Neuhaus's comments..."
I expect Fr. Neuhaus will provide a few thoughts in the next issue of First Things.
I must say that I find the vestments surprisingly nice! I still loathe the "artificial amice" collar, but I think the orphreys are well executed. I personally would never buy them, but not bad. They would have been better on raw silk which has a sheen and the weave shows movement very well for such a large gothic chasuble.
I've come to discover most people don't know how to design a dalmatic, perhaps the most beautiful vesture in the Church's line-up!
Vox and all - then send a civil and respectful letter, copy EWTN and the Holy See - they will get those and they're more difficult to delete. Emphasis on civil and respectful - that will get you at least more respect and consideration than a childish rant. Please spare the Holy See especially some of the lack of maturity that we see above - but there is certainly room for alot of diappointment - the Holy Father seemed so GRATEFUL for Placido Domingo's contribution that this was evident in his gesture. Fr. Neuhaus, a convert, has often quipped about much he misses the high standards of music in the Protestant tradition, and he certainly was not pleased on EWTN today. I would be most interested to read an assessment from the musical experts here at the NLM now that his Mass is over.
I don't see how this could possibly go without some kind of response from either the Holy See or Marini...
Folks,
I've finally had an opportunity to come back to this thread and I've had to clean up a number of posts which seemed either duplicate, simply polemical, or not terribly relevant.
I haven't had the opportuntity to follow this Mass but everything I hear, including from people other than commenters here, is that it wasn't not a very edifying experience on the musical front. This was expected. Jeffrey Tucker called it.
If you wish to express your dismay, you need to do it critically, but intelligently and in the way Benedict XVI would himself do it -- not only here, but wherever and to whomever you need to write to.
In short, no name calming; no polemics; no rants.
With regard to Marini, do recall what I noted: he cannot control everyting. Given how much sounds not terribly edifying on this front, imagine him in his position; is he to come in and tell them to scrap the entire musical programme?
He is in a difficult position, as a guest, coming in to a country where things have been planned well ahead of time, in a time of great liturgical trial yet.
Give him some understanding for the difficulty of his position and recognize in the good elements you see his and Benedict's hand.
EWTN's online English video feed currently has Spanish voice-overs. What gives?
Just when you think things couldn't get any worse.......you see something like that.
I thought someone would have to go up and wire Fr Neuhaus and Raymond's Mouths in place before theier jaws dropped to their kneesknees
Maybe this will prevent the Washington archbishop from ever getting a red hat
On an entirely different note, the altar arrangement. Some of you may recall that there had been a debate on here in the comments about whether the evently spaced cross and candles hadn't been abandoned in favour of pushing them to the side more to give a clearer view of the celebrant.
The NLM suggested this was not in fact the case as this morning's Mass would demonstrate.
It was a point worth noting.
Shawn -- I disagree with your free pass for Marini. Music is a huge part of a Mass. The Mass in D.C. is a huge part of this American trip. Msgr. Marini knew all the music and even remarked how much he liked the diversity.
Shawn';
I think many of us were being charitable in the above comments given the situation. I do not think that this is what the Roman Rite will be like for several hundred years... on the contrary I hope that this sad event will hasten the much needed change. Pray that we will live to see that change...
Ken, there was no way he could have known. He did his best but ultimately he had to trust. Nor could he have anticipated just what would emerge -- any more than I could have anticipated this, even with all the information we had. His comment on diversity reflected some rhetoric floating around in the meetings. He probably thought that the Gloria was a victory for chant -- not knowing what would emerge. The Holy Father was visibly displeased at times.
The sounds of this Mass will echo for decades to come.
USCCB Papal visit site has deleted my comment about the music as well.
I too disagree with you Shawn. Msgr Marini has done wonders since the beginning of this tenure, but if we are going to be consistent with the criticisms that have been made of his predecessor, we must say that this is a similar situation. Msgr Marini personally carried out the advance trip in January to oversee these details and rehearsals for this music had not yet even started. The option was there for adjustments to be made.
The truth is that he has the job and he is responsible.
Ken,
You don't seem to have heard what I have said.
People who have had to work in a liturgical context, particularly as a guest, are very familiar with what I speak.
You cannot expect, as I noted, these to come off like they would in St. Peter's Basilica.
Beyond that, in some cases the complaint is surrounding instruments. Was Marini presented with that fact, or only the text of the music? That is important to note as well.
Be very careful before jumping upon one who has evidently been doing very much good.
The simple fact is, Marini would have to make some compromises.
Maybe next time the Holy See could compile a music program, bring its own vestments, choose it's own location and submit plans for the temporary sanctuary, or better yet, pick a consecrated altar to say Mass on. There are solutions, it's just that no one is willing to find them. Surely the Pope knew what he would get when he put the diocese in charge of this celebration.
I personally am getting tired of seeing the Pope worshiped like a superstar. For twenty years, everyone wanted to see John Paul the Great, now they flock to see Benedict the Great and they'll do the same for whoever is his successor.
Father - I find it amazing and utterly disgusting that the UCCB would delete a comment from a priest. If comments are sensible and civil - what right is there to this type of censorship - this is not American.
Ken:
I don't know you, so I'll try to speak on that point, so I don't mean to insult your intelligence.
There is a very, very subtle factor called, "romanita". It tries to not be so polemical with the aim of "winning the war, not every tiny battle". I think he is consistent in how Pope Benedict has approached his papacy. It seems as if the Holy Father has vowed change, but not the way change was imposed in the 60's and 70's. That only lead to a revolt which is what we see now. I'd rather see the slow and steady that will last over time, than a flash in the pan. I think this is doubly important with an 81 year old pope. If he died tomorrow, we could be back at square one, having accomplished nothing, if all he did was make enemies along the way of reform.
As anxious as I am, as I am sure you are too, for dramatic change and reform, I'm learning the virtue of patience, albeit imperfectly!
DC,
In this case, it sounds as though the entire musical programme was at issue. That isn't the matter of "adjustments" that is the matter of re-writing.
As for the comparison between the two Marini's, the fundamental difference are their expressed liturgical ideas, and how we have seen that manfiest in their own areas of direct contact, particularly Rome.
Guido Marini's influence can be mainly seen here in relation to the altar and vestments, which are simple enough for him to control.
"Where have all the propers of the Mass gone!!!!!!!!!!
Mick"
...long time passing.
"People who have had to work in a liturgical context, particularly as a guest, are very familiar with what I speak."
Thank you Mr. Tribe. As a former MC who has been invited to MC events at several different places - this is absolutely true. You need to pick your battles carefully, and compromise a great deal of the time.
Fr Neuhaus's comments were priceless.
Was Fr formerly a Lutheran theologan before becoming Catholic?
Emilio and Shawn:
Ditto from the exact same perspective. A wise man (and a real gentleman) knows his limitations.
I'm not sure the spacing makes that much a of a difference when the candlesticks you're using are less than a foot tall. You get a clear view of the celebrant either way. The same was true at the crypt Vespers last night. Hopefully, though, the Pope has changed his mind about this and will use a similar arrangement back in Rome where the four foot tall candlestick really do stand in the way.
OK, I know heraldry is my thing and most people don't give a hang about it but what was the deal with having only an outline of the papal arms on the back of the Pope's chair? That really seemed kind of bizarre. As much as I love heraldry they tend to overuse it at events like these. They don't have to emblazon everything the Pope uses with his coat of arms. I know, too, that there is a tendency to want to make every chair the Pope sits in look "cathedra-like" by including his coat of arms. But, having an outline to merely suggest the coat of arms without depicting them is too much of a nod in the direction of heraldry-as-logo in my opinion. We're logo-obsessed in our society and a coat of arms is not a logo. Having an outline of an apple with a bite taken out of it works fine for a computer company. If you're going to use the Pope's coat of arms then use the coat of arms not something that suggests the coat of arms.
This is an obviously emotional issue for most of us. An exhortation to do three things:
1) Stop.
2) Pray.
3) Think.
And, as an aside, there's a useful Pentagon truism that might be helpful regarding some of the attempts to find who's responsible: 90% of the time what we ascribe to malice and foresight can be better attributed to inertia and incompetence.
Honestly, we just don't know how much visibility the prelates and Msgr. Marini really had on the most bothersome aspects of the music. Is it possible that Abp Wuerl and Msgr Marini were aware, to the level of "tympani and pan flutes start playing here?"
In Christ,
BTW:
the processional cross and altar candles and altar cross are all borrowed from the Shrine, I recognize them. The processional cross, by the way is only about 15 years old. It was made by Adrian Hamers of New York modeled on a crucifix in the crypt of the Church.
Michael,
I thought of the height issue as well, though with the candles in them, they would be higher than the Pope is tall -- and let's remember those down on the ground level would be even further down on that angle, making them even higher in appearance.
My point ultimately is that I think this matter relates to television angles. In this case, the candlesticks are not as bulky width-wise and they also have far more camera angles to choose from here than say St. Peter's square or the Basilica.
What it isn't though is an abandonment of the even spacing generally. This is all I wish to propose and put out there.
Has the EWTN footage been archived anywhere yet? I missed the Mass and want to see what everyone is talking about.
We're not talking about landing in at a parish for confirmation fifteen minutes before mass to MC for the Bishop.
Msgr Marini (whom I greatly respect and admire) is the chief MOC for the Pope who has the task of signing-off on all aspects of the liturgy.
He may not have liked it either, but it happened on his watch and he is therefore responsible.
We can't just acclaim him as the great liturgist in charge when we see things that we like. It's his job and on this point, I'm sorry to say, I am disappointed.
Apparently the USCCB did not appreciate my comment on their blog as it was condemned to oblivion.
"The planners of the papal liturgy in the Archdiocese of Washing should be ashamed. Did no one bother to look at Pope Benedict's liturgical writings or current practice at St. Peter's Basilica to understand how music is an integral part of Holy Mass? Music is not an add-on to the Mass, and this was certainly not an opportunity to produce a Broadway show. Shame on you all for your blatant disregard for Christ and his Vicar on Earth."
"Heraldry-as-logo"
Brilliant assessment. Minimalism with desultory nod to missing content. There's an entire essay in your phrase, Father Selvester. Do write it!
Incidentally, I am open to you here expressing your dismay and concern.
I think it is important to have a record of what seems to be a fairly wide and common reaction from a diverse range of people. That does say something.
I only ask that you approach it reasonably and calmly.
Jeffrey said, of Marini on the music: "Ken, there was no way he could have known."
Catholic News Service reported, ten days ago:
Msgr. Marini said the Vatican did not dictate the choice of music and hymns for the U.S. liturgies.
"The repertoire is rather vast," he said. "There will be Gregorian chant, polyphony and some hymns that are more popular in the American repertoire.
"I really like this variety of styles that has been prepared for the celebrations," he said.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data...cns/
0801862.htm
The other thing I find interesting is not only do they stick the papal arms everywhere but they use just one (very boring) version of it, they don't commission a heraldic renderer to paint something special for the occasion; even if they kept the mitre, some variety in the shield shape and the details of the keys and infulae would at least add interest and make it look less like a trademark that someone printed off the internet and glued up on the back of the cathedra.
I guess the USCCB website only permits postings complimentary of this "Mass." (kind of like the former USSR). Since mine will be deleted, I will share it with you here:
The liturgical planners, and I use that term loosely, displayed a shocking disregard for our Catholic music tradition and clearly the mandate of Sacrosanctum Concilium that Gregorian Chant enjoy "pride of place." It also displayed amply the puerile nature of the aging liturgical establishment. If I were the Pope, I would have walked out.
Now what's so bad about that?
Tom
DC,
Re: Marini
You also cannot just go after him, despite his record, because of one event -- particularly one not in his direct control or planning.
Imagine the scenario. These events are planned for more than a year ahead of time. Decisions are made by local hosts. Choirs and the sort are practiced, practiced, practiced.
At what point is Marini involved? What is he shown? Is he actually given previews of the music, or simply sent texts with some sheet music?
I don't have the answer, but I can understand the predicament he was likely put in.
Here's my comment (I'll note that it is comment #319): I thought His Holiness’s homily was excellent, but the music (especially the higher-and-higher of the Responsorial Psalm) left much to be desired. “Much progress has been made in developing solid programs of catechesis, yet so much more remains to be done in forming the hearts and minds of the young in knowledge and love of the Lord.” Those words are clearly applicable to the liturgical catechesis of the Church in America.
Any opinions on this: just after the Pope begain the Mass, after "In the name of the Father, etc, etc".... there was a "welcome speech". Surely, this was totally inappropriate as Mass had already started?
What I don’t understand is, for all of these neocon “reform of the reform” people, where was this reform?
While the locals have a say, this is still a papal Mass. And what did we see? A translation of “pro multis” as “for ALL” even though the pope himself has demanded must change, Communion in the hand even when distributed by the pope, and one liturgical abuse after the other.
These are all things that he could correct himself, but doesn’t.
Every time I try to get positive, it never lasts!
Chris,
The locals have more than a say. They ultimately plan it.
This had nothing to do with the reform of the reform.
Good points there, Chris. The SSPX and sedavacantists will have a field day on all of this! Furthermore, they will be right (this time)!
I'm glad I missed everything post responsorial psalm.
"I guess the USCCB website only permits postings complimentary"
I posted a comment asking for guidelines on commenting. It's still awaiting moderation...
I am very grateful for our Holy Father, Pope Benedict and for his presence among us in these days. His speech to the bishops last night and his homily today have provided the Church in the United States with much to meditate upon in the coming months and years.
I am also thankful for Msgr Guido Marini. Not only for his diligent work in collaboration with the ministry of the Bishop of Rome, but for his very evident personal regard and reverence for the Holy Mass.
Today's Mass at the Nationals Stadium left much to be desired, however, it also provided the Church in the United States with the privileged encounter with the Lord Jesus and the successor of the Apostle Peter that is so necessary for the authentic renewal of Christian life and the Sacred Liturgy. I suspect that many grew in their love for the Pope today because of his visit and celebration of Mass. My hope is that this love will naturally turn into a greater obedience not only to the Lord Jesus and His Gospel, but to the liturgical desires of the Supreme Pontiff
The music for today was chosen by a committee of parish musicians in DC selected for the job.
Jeffrey, Shawn and J Basil Damukaitis -- I hope you take a look at Msgr. Marini's comments cited above.
I will give credit where it is due. The crucifix and candles on the table were lovely. But at what price?
It is easy to blame an archdiocese for today's Conga Mass. But, isn't the whole point of putting good men in charge so that the tomfoolery an archdiocese plans could be corrected? It would seem this would be especially true with the current pope.
No, Msgr. Marini ought to hear about this one, in addition to Archbishop Wuerl. Almost no one saw the two polyphonic pieces we've been cheering about from last night. But thousands -- millions -- just saw what is assumed to be the Mass the way the Vatican intended it to be.
Since we're looking at Washington, D.C. today, this reminds me of the politician who whispers good things to the pro-lifers at their small gathering, then goes to the Senate and votes the other way. Neither Senator, nor Monsignor, deserves a free pass when it comes to the big stuff.
Shawn:
The locals may "plan" the liturgy, but no one made our Holy Father use the incorrect phrase "For All" or forced him to place the Body of Christ on someone's hand.
TS
"Has the EWTN footage been archived anywhere yet?"
EWTN is televising an encore of the Mass at this moment. Started at 1 p.m. (EDT). Another encore at 12 AM 4/18.
I agree with Chris' post right above. What does this really say for the reform of the reform?
It seemed as if this Mass was intended to not only highlight the "cultural diversity" of America, but that we don't really need Rome's direction on Holy Mass. This is the exact experience of most of us in our parish churches.
I also got a bit of this "vibe" at the Vespers Q&A session. Perhaps it is the lens through which I view our bishops, but even in the presence of the pontif, the bishops seems to address him and regard him as a "brother bishop" and "head of our college," which he is, but not as Sovereign Pontiff, Ruler of the Church.
We may be gladdened by little tidbits of hope here and there, but this Mass shows that America is not in the business of being reformed by Rome any time soon.
Today reminded me of a well known broadway show: http://hallowedground.wordpress....way-engagement/
"For all" remains the current legislated text in the English language translation of the Missal.
The Pope was setting an example of legislative restraint in following the current legislated text.
Communion in the hand, as much as we might dislike it, is allowed in the dioceses of the United States. Until it is officially discontinued, it is up to the COMMUNICANT, not the DISTRIBUTOR, how they receive (on the tongue or in the hand).
And yes, the Pope could have used Latin for the E.P. so as to avoid "for all", but he could not deviate from the approved English translation. Why should the Pope be allowed to break rules (to promote our wishes) when we're so concerned with other people breaking rules (to promote their wishes)?
One has to wonder what a Papal Mass in the Extraordinary Form would look and sound like.
Ken,
You really don't seem to be reading what we are saying. We do understand your point, but I think you believe every jot and tittle can be controlled by Marini. I wish it were true. If you want to write a letter, go for it, but be respectful and acknowledge his accomplishments.
Chris,
Of course he would use "for all" that is what the English translation presently is in the missal. It wouldn't do terribly well probably if the Pope were to himself start changing the words of the liturgy. In the end, while we all look forward to that revision, it doesn't invalidate the Mass.
John Paul,
The only thing it says about the reform of the reform is that it demonstrates why that project is not an overnight one, but a project of decades; one which will advance more quickly in some places than others. This has been noted all along.
At the end of the day, no one expected this to bring out anything but tidbits of the "Benedictine liturgical reform". We saw those tidbits, and we also saw the the other aspects we expected to see.
The New York Mass will be far more interesting to keep one's eyes upon.
Watching the re-broadcast right now (what a sucker for punishment I am!). I'm trying to figure out why all the lectors sound angry... it sounds like they are scolding us with scripture...
Well, at least the vestments aren't as horrid as the Austrian tie-dye, but they were rather plain and the rest of the Mass was one huge disappointment. It's bad enough to see a poor Papal liturgy in St. Peter's, but actually seeing the Holy Father celebrating Holy Mass in a stadium makes me sick. The music was beyond horrid, I can't even begin to voice my feelings, but WHAT WAS THAT responsorial psalm? I could only imagine what the Pope was thinking. Was the altar created from junkyard scraps? Communion in the hand? "For all?" Where was the "Benedictine liturgical reform"? I am irate. If this is what we as a country present to the Holy Father, then I think we are much farther behind than I thought. I can see this type of circus mass at my local parish any given Sunday! WHAT A MESS!!!
Anyone else think Marty Haugen's Sanctus sounded like Palestrina compared to that Psalm?
It is understandable that lay readers would want to make facial gestures and exagerate the intonation of the words, given that there were 46,000 people listening, and the Word of God is a weighty and important matter.
But the problem of those two ladies SHOUTING the Word of God at the crowd can be solved by having some deacons chant the readings.
The responsorial psalm was published by GIA in 1980 maybe in a collection of several by C. A. Peloquin. Sigh.
Chironimo,
You took the words right out of my mouth. My thoughts exactly.
As for why this happens, see my previous comment about what lay readers.
I just got home from the Papal Mass. It was wonderful to be there with and for the Holy Father. I arrived early enough to be subjected to the entire music program. Sigh. For me, nearly all of the music was a huge intrusion and distraction. As was the sporadic applause which seems to be encouraged when the music seems more like a performance than an integral part of the liturgy.
With regard to the Peloquin responsorial psalm. I hated it when I first heard it in the 70's and it has not gotten better with age. I could practically feel the Holy Father wince at that last dissonant chord. Yikes!
Still, I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
Thank you, Holy Father! We need you so much and are grateful to you for your efforts to shepherd the Church.
So I guess talking about the vestments can be equated to, "so besides that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
For those still bashing Marini on all this, I can understand being upset, but I still say, romanita, romanita, romanita. It is rather pretentious to think everyone should have MY approach toward solving problems or dealing with people. si si, no no?
And they are wondering why the young people are not coming to Mass???
I have a hard time myself going every Sunday to endure that same kind of music!
Also what's with the vibrato? I can't stand it. In France we describe that kind of sound: singing like goat!!!
I hit the mute fairly early in the broadcast. Does anyone know if they had banjos at the mass?
J Basil -
No discourse is needed... just our collective experiences over the last 40 years... and this Washington Mass! Need I say more? Everything has been said before... it's time to act. I pray the "Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary", 1962 edition, every day for the end of the Novus Ordo and the full return of the Traditional Mass and other lost Traditions. I ask all who will listen to join me and commit to praying for this. What is happening now in our churches is similar to what was happening to the Church in Corinth - our Masses are not what they should be. Maybe as the Pauline Year begins, we will get inspiration from his words to the Corinthians: "In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good." We may not be getting drunk at Mass, but we are getting drunk with our own egos and making the Mass a self-centered celebration of us. The Traditional Mass does not allow this, which is why we need it now more than ever.
Wow! I am dizzy just from reading all this. I had avoided this Mass b/c of how bad the music was going to be. Now I feel like I need to see what everyone is talking about.
I just might add one word of caution: We who complain today must be prepared to provide leadership tomorrow. And we must compliment those who do a good job, such as those involved in last evening's Vespers.
Mark:
I totally agree with you that that is what is going on now. However I fail to see how these abuses are organically connected to the Novus Ordo. In other words, I can see the line between what is organic to the Novus Ordo by reading the rubrics and documents, and what is not organic and thus a liturgical abuse.
SO, to make this liturgy the categorical imperative for all novus ordo liturgies is unfair and quite frankly, objectively inaccurate. (BTW, I do believe the TLM is objectively superior!)
Just to add to previous postings -- I was very surprised that the altar bells weren't rung. Are bells now optional? I know that if I were hearing Mass in a stadium I would rely on the bells. It's hard enough to contemplate the elevation when it's 500 yards away, let alone be almost completely disconnected from the Holy Sacrifice because there is no way to know when the Consecration will approach.
I think it's praiseworthy that the bishops want people of all backgrounds to feel included at Mass. Hopefully Pope Benedict will stress that the best way to include everyone is to provide music that transcends differences, like chant.
(No offense, but I did a double take when Cardinal Bertone started praying the E.P.... I thought it was Count Dracula for a second.)
But in all seriousness. Was that the choir who joined in the doxology of the E.P., or was that simply the voice of all the other priests and bishops there? And why did the deacon ad-lib the Pax? Perhaps because he's been given formation in such matters in the seminary?
JM - Yes, the bells are optional. And I would think, so long as you can hear the voice of the celebrant, you'd know when the consecration took place.
But why no bells, honestly?
I was quite pleased to see that the six torch bearers and thurifer who led the procession of the gifts stayed and knelt during the consecration.
I was not pleased to see that a number of the women who brought up the gifts were not properly dressed. Scant, in fact, were some of their dresses--a few inches even above the knee. One would have hoped that whoever rehearsed them would have ensured that they dressed more modestly and even that they perhaps would have been asked to wear veils even, no?
I've finished reading through this whole combox, and I think that we have to realize a few things:
Somewhere, someone had either 1) bad musical formation, but a good heart, or 2) bad musical formation and an agenda. I am hopeful it was merely the first and not the second.
Also, when the HF is up on the stage, he is not is a great position to start nitpicking the liturgy that thousands of his hosts have planned. The time was beforehand, but the planning was probably so diffuse that it was hard to control.
Practically speaking, I hope this convinces the HF to avoid large mega-Masses in the future. It lends itself to all sorts of problems. Example: in Australia, laymen and laywomen stood in general proximity to the altar where JPII presided, and they lifted up ciboria with hosts in it during the consecration itself, and then distributed Holy Communion.
Finally, let's also give credit to some positives:
No female servers
Nice vestments
Incense
Crucifix as the central point of reference
No EMHC's (big victory here)
cassocks and surplices instead of tweed albs
Fr. Neuhaus's comments were priceless....and on national TV - uneditable!
So rejoice! God will use this for good.....some how.
It might be instructive to see what the official music books of the Roman Rite have prescribed for today's Votive Mass of the Holy Spirit. I have made available that list, plus audio examples and translations, on my website.
Sadly this bright idea visited me after the actual Mass was celebrated.
Not that I expect anyone knew it, but by tradition bells were never used at papal Masses.
No one has mentioned the little internecine tiff between Fr. Neuhaus (God bless him) and his colleague, Joan something. I always find her commentary from Rome utterly vapid, and it was no surprise that she spoke directly against Fr. Neuhaus's remarks on how dreadful this Mass was liturgically.
I just watched the replay on EWTN, and am trying to decide whether it was a good or bad thing for the Pope to be exposed to the American liturgical vernacular in all its horror. I hope somebody assures him that yes, it is really that bad in most American parishes every Sunday. Tradition makes the smallest of inroads in the Church today; this Mass showed that the real power remains in the hands of theologically ignorant philistines. Very, very depressing day.
You know, at one level I wasn't surprised at all by the BAD music but at another level I was surprised because it has be remembered that at Archbishop Wuerl's own cathedral, Saint Matthew's, a very prayerful and properly beautiful Latin sung Mass using the 1970 Missal is celebrated every Sunday. The last time I assisted at it, the young celebrant chanted his parts with near angelic quality. It may be the only cathedral in this country where such is celebrated. I don't know. In other words, of all the dioceses that have experience--long experience, actually--with a regular celebration of of the Mass in its newer order done in such a way that is as about as continuous with the older form as is possible, it would be the Archdiocese of Washington. The disconnect is rather even more jarring therefore. Rather like it would be if say, one were to go to supper at New York city's Jean Georges expecting haute cuisine only to arrive and find that an Army hash slinger attired in an sweaty undershirt had set up a buffet line and was dishing out instead chipped beef on toast.
Okay folks, we had a short break with the hope that we could all take a little breather and then proceed with some real indepth critique and commentary.
So with that, please proceed and please folks, we don't simply want complaint. That opportunity has been had and I want to leave that here as part of this. It is evidenced by the 245 comments that are here, and I think there is a legitimacy to that kind of initial response.
However, what we need now is to move beyond that initial response and move to serious, considered critical discussion.
Shawn, that was a great idea of yours to cool things down. That being said, although many of us were justifiably disappointed with the music, I think the visual aspects, the Benedictine altar arrangement, the altar area itself, and the vestments are a big improvement over the recent past. I trust Benedict implicitly. He's going about the "reform of the reform" incrementally, step-by-step. I think New York's liturgy will be another step, albeit an extremely important one. Regards, Tom
I would really like to see the Pope treat NYC to an ad orientem Mass.
I did not get to see all of the Mass but Our Father does indeed have first hand experience now of what many of us endure. I do believe I saw him cringe!!!!
But there was some Latin in the Mass so at least some steps are going in the right direction. Fr. Neuhaus could hardly believe what he was hearing and the 'preening' was certainly there with the over emphasizing of 'multiculturism'. Sure lets all celebrate our diversity--Hey, let us all celebrate our common faith!!
I do hope to watch the Holy Father continue, brick by brick, to restore the reverence and beauty to the Holy Sacrifice which will actually be called that again instead of just 'liturgy'.
But the Holy Father needs to convert hearts and then the rest can be worked on.
On an uplifting note it was correct and good to see that Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry where rightly denied The Blessed Sacrament.
God bless you
Christ, I believe the Pope is bound, as we all are, to use the current lawful Missal translation.
One is not "right" to "correct" that which one knows is badly translated, one is required in humility to "say the black," even in the presence of those who "ignore the red."
I am a little surprised that anyone thinks an MC, (who is also a priest, a shepherd,) would sweep into town and fabricate an entirely different liturgy than the one the locals had planned, to any good result.
And it's not as if he would have sat through several hours of music performed as it would be performed in the ceremonies.
I'm am sure most of us are skilled enough at both music and... creative verbiage, to have presented and described most of this in a manner that would seem unobjectionable to almost anyone.
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
Dan Hunter, where did you see that? Praise God!
Okay, here is my concern. At a time when the council of bishops is hashing out a "directory" of hymnody for parish use in the United States... with some oversight from the Vatican, this example I believe, is a tragic setback for Parish Musicians in the church who try to select music with integrity each weekend. Fr. Neuhaus uses the word "unfortunate" in describing the musical selections this morning... but could this have a longer lasting impact when the council of bishops undoubtedly hears the harsh criticism stemming from this morning's musical disaster.
The comittee from the council of bishops wanted their "directory" to be binding, but was outvoted on the floor, making their report simply advisory. This may change... seeing that there is now an example of how contemporary music can ruin a liturgy as special aas a papal mass.
Mr. Stehle, in is role at NPM (National Pastoral Musicians) should have prepared (and received guidance) with this in mind, and should have used selections that have stood the test of time in our parishes... not to mention, selections that must be included in such a directory.
If you just watched the Mass, it was his normal celebratory style, very reverent, although in English. If you can block out the caterwauling, it looks good!
"I hit the mute fairly early in the broadcast. Does anyone know if they had banjos at the mass?
mco | 04.17.08 | # "
MCO.. no banjos that I can discern, but a wide array of innapropriate instruments nonetheless.. can't tell if that was a pan flute, or some Native American flutelike instrument, but it sounded like a "Native Flutes" CD that I used to have... I felt as though the Holy Father should have been evoking the Spirit of the Great Eagle during communion. Also the Mariachi ensemble was priceless.
With all due respect, who was the organist? Was this some kind of opportunity for High-Schoolers to play for the Pope? The music wasn't that difficult...
Sorry if that was uncharitable...
Were Pelosi and Kerry DENIED communion or did they just not present themselves for communion? Two totally different things here. Let's be sure of the facts of the matter.
The musical grab-bag of a Mass was a horror in which much of the wrong music was grabbed and most of the 'performers' should have been bagged.
Jim..FYI
The "Directory for Music in the Liturgy" was not outvoted on the floor. It was approved and sent to Rome for recognitio, where it still waits since November 2006. I think you are speaking of the document "Sing To The Lord: Music in Divine Worship" which was the revision of Music in Catholic Worship. It was supposed to be binding, receiving the approval of Rome, but was downgraded to a committee document when it became clear that it was not going to get approval from the USCCB in a form that would receive approval from Rome. Today's Mass did not even remotely conform to that document, which is supposed to be the official guidelines in the U.S for liturgical music. I would point out a quote from Sing To The Lord:
62. At international and multicultural gatherings of different language groups, it is most
appropriate to celebrate the Liturgy in Latin, “with the exception of the readings, the homily and
the prayer of the faithful.”61 In addition, “selections of Gregorian chant should be sung” at such
gatherings, whenever possible.62
I don't think it gets much more "multi-cultural" than what we saw today. If thi isn't the sort of liturgy tha they had in mind when writing this, what would fit thedescription?
it was very beautiful to see the altar arranged properly so that the celebrant could see the crucifix. the huge crucifix above the chair was redundant and also a way of imparting a type of official approval to the music. (if the presence of the pope hadn't already done that)
According to Yahoo! news, John Kerry received communion, although from a priest some distance away from the Pope.
I was being sarcastic.
Both of them presented themselves and recieved the Blessed Sacrament from a priest who was strategically located far from the Holy Father.
It is quite traditional to have an altar crucifix for the celebrant and a reredos crucifix for the people; a single cross in the sanctuary is a very modern concept. (Alternately, let me add, it is just as traditional to have a smallish altar crucifix and a reredos with an image of Our Lady or somesuchlike rather than the big cross we're so used to in America. Tradition covers a whole lot of territory.)
Dan:
Only saw snippets of the Mass! Sorry I didn't catch the humor! (Well done) But I see your catching on!
Cheers!
Come on I thought this stuff was going to be stamped out? My friends if all of us can hear and understand this "music" is just plain dreadfull,I am by no means a music expert but my goodness drums, bongos, guitars, steel drums, off key and just plain sad singers is there anybody in the USSCB who see's and hears what we do???? Anyone?????? And enough with the cantor and her waving arms, it does not work!!
Have taped the Mass - but after reading ALL of the above comments I am now dreading watching it! Have the American church learned nothing since the liturgically bankrupt days of the 1970's and 1980's? Why do the Faithful put up with this nonsense? At least in 2008 there is now an organised voice against such rubbish. There is this - the internet - that can gather and unite those who love Tradition. Ultimately, surely the Archbishop of Washington should be made to account for this Mass - if it is as bad as indicated? Not good enough. I think I will just stick with the Mass of Old. No debates there - thankfully!
So it goes. Things will be better in NY
Having seen the Mass, and read the comments, I think this Mass was as bad as most everyone anticipated, and in some cases even worse.
It encapsulated the typical Sunday experience in the USA Catholic Church. Terrible.
***Except for the altar which was beautiful.
Chironimo,
Thanks for the correction... yet you get the point. I cannot fathom where they (Stehle and others) were coming from today. I know that this wasn't what the committee had in mind when they presented the document...
I worry about the lasting effect from all of this... how could the bishops sit in the Shrine last night and compare to what they heard today. Who knows, maybe some of them like today better than yesterday?
The altar was inoffensive, but dull; it was well-liturgically-planned, not ugly, but not really beautiful either. If we demand real chant, we should also demand real traditional architecture, or at least a modern style that connects organically with our church's love of iconography and ornament.
Chironomo makes excellent points above. To me, at least, what Latin was employed in the Mass today was not at all welcome though. Would that it had been the core language so to speak, the backbone. That could have been accomplished by, say, having the ordinary Mass parts in Latin and perhaps in addition the Collect of the Day, and the Post-Communion Prayer. There was no sense in this Mass that Latin was the official language of this ritual church. Instead it seemed very much part of the cacophony, the babel. Oh yes, we're aware that a certain sub-group rather likes Latin so along with Tagalog and Igbo we best toss some Latin into the salad thus we shall demonstrate the largess of our multiculturalist sentiments. We're soooooooooooooooooooooo accomodating of difference that we even include those Latin lovers. Surely I'm not the only one who got this sense as to the (mis)function of Latin in this Mass, am I?
Many times I saw the face of the Holy Father during mass, and I think he did not enjoy at all this "multicultural music", which was horrible, as long as the communion in hand. What a pity!
Although some people in this comment block didn't like some of the musical selections, the Latino or Hispanic music presented was not bad.
Having just come from Mexico afew weeks ago , I saw many Masses (especially during Easter week) which used this kind of music. It's standard in Mexico. Here in the USA we find it odd.
But it fits well with the liturgy in Mexico, which 75% of the time was way more traditional and reverent that here in the USA. It creates a very festive mood. I don't see anything wrong with the music from the Latino/Hispanic tradition in the Catholic Mass.
BUT, taking music from the Afro/American revivalist Protestant Gospel experience and putting it in Catholic Mass doesn't fit AT ALL. Totally inappropriate. Shouldn't have been permitted at the Papal Mass.
Maybe just maybe the Holy Father had to see for himself what is going on here with the liturgy and tell the USSCB to stop, look and listen to see what Rome really wants the Mass to be like? Funny thing I was watching the Mass with a Lutheran friend who loves the TLM and said plain and simple, sorry but I cannot endure this music it's emmbarssing and degrading for the Holy Father and well very low level at best very low!!!! CRINGE
While I agree with a lot of the criticism of the music, especially the usage of the MOC ordinary and (except for Bob Hurd's Ubi Caritas) the music during Communion, I will defend Peloquin's setting of Ps. 104. We use it in our parish to great effect. However, the execution was particularly bad this morning. The verses are to be sung gently. The most beautiful part is the choir singing the latin Veni sancte spiritus and Alleluia during the refrain, but that was completely obscured. I was very excited when I saw it programed, but most disappointed in how it turned out. Please don't put Peloquin in with Haugen/Haas etc. From a compositional craft perspective, Peloquin is at a much higher level when you analyze is music. He was one of the proponents maintaining the lineage of tradition after Vatican II (on the losing side unfortunately), but without him that flicker of hope that remained in people's hearts during the truly dark years would have been a bit dimmer.
The celebration of the Holy Communion went well though the music was not so good. The only part I love about the singing performance is when Placido Domingo sang "Panis Angelicus," the rest is 50/50. I love the altar arrangement, won't say anything further than that, and also the Pope's vestment, beautiful.
Laudater Jesus Christus!
Viva El Papa Benedetto XVI!
Kenjiro, I am glad you found in Mexico they are able to integrate solemnity with festivity. Please don't take this the wrong way but I'd like to critique your comment a bit, though.
I did not hear the mass today but as a Hispanic (Cuban-American), I get immediately on my guard whenever folks start talking about Latin American music, because what they're listening to is usually either a tacky ripoff of the soundtrack to _El Cid_, or sub-par Mariachi stuff. My ancestors spent 400 years singing polyphony and Gregorian chant, and we deserve better.
In Mexico, one converted Aztec aristocrat wrote European-style motets, but in his native Nahua language. Admittedly, it was all a bit zippier and more cheery than some of the stodgier stuff by Byrd et al. (High mass sung with polyphony, guitar, sackbutt and shawm, for instance, not to mention the choirboys using castanets on high feast-days in Seville and 17th c. Bolivia) but it was still traditional and liturgical.
Just as Black Catholics deserve better (and let us remember that in places such as Brazil, there seems to have been a rich Black tradition of Baroque liturgical music), we Latins deserve not to be fobbed off with "Pan de Vida," poncho chausuables, and the like.
As if the music wasn't bad enough, now we have heresy at the Papal Mass by those two communicating. Sickening
I was being sarcastic.
Both of them presented themselves and recieved the Blessed Sacrament from a priest who was strategically located far from the Holy Father.
I am wondering how Our Lord views what happened in today's Mass, and the various reactions thereto. Does He see the hearts of the members of His Body being raised up at Holy Mass to inner contemplation and love of the Trinity? Or instead does He see a 'turning in on ourselves', of celebrating 'us', complete with applause, solos, and so forth? As someone else has noted, the Israelites turned to a golden calf so they could feel like they were important, that 'a' god was amongst them, instead of patiently and prayerfully waiting for Moses to return from Mt. Sinai. Indeed, Israel always struggled to fight against pagan influences which would profane religion into a cult of self, filled with vanity and self-indulgence. I am glad that I could not hear this music from where I watched, and I do not intend to ever listen to it, just as I wouldn't deliberately gawk at a horrible car accident just to see how bad it really is-I trust the views of those better informed. The mere fact that not one single commentator on any blog, website, tv program or elsewhere whom I would trust has defended this liturgy tells me all I need to hear. There need be no further evidence that a rupture of some kind does exist since 1969 than this.
My friend and Deacon built the altar, chair, and ambo, but using a design from a student contest. I looked at the Papal coat of arms and it is topped by what looks to be a Papal tiara and not a miter.
I was emailing a friend during the Mass and commented that the psalm was a travesty. It turned a song of praise to the Lord into a Stannic verse. The only highlight for me was Placido Domingo. I found myself singing the bass line accompaniment to myself. I truly loved the vespers service. I have sung chant and polyphony in the crypt as part of the Sacred Music Association Colloquium and the domed ceiling makes for a wonderful sound.
This was a real snapshot of music in churches in America. I have seen the same program at countless liturgies at the Basilica of the National Shrine and my local parishes. It really suck the soul out of a person.
By the way, a quick internet search revealed that the languages employed at the Mass today were the exact same ones employed at Apb Wuerl's installation, including Tagalog and Igbo. That's telling isn't it? I don't know about the musical selections but if someone who went to that Mass could find their program or if someone recalls what was sung or can find out on line, I think it would be worth comparing these two celebrations. That, you see, would be the only celebration in recent years in the Archdiocese comparable to this Mass, I think.
John:
Dr. Latona and Dr. Nestor (his predecessor) have always maintained high standards of liturgical music at the Shrine. I presume the liturgies at the Shrine to which you are referring are ones "produced" by the USCCB. The Shrine has always, even in the darkest days, had exceptional music.
At EWTN Father John Neuhaus and Raymond Arroyo were in total shock and pretty much said it was HORRIBLE without really saying it. I belive Raymond said something akin that it was Amazonian or Club Med in flavor, I hope Wuerl and Co. get an earful and get a TLM and Gregorian clue!!!! It's time to grow up and get out of the 60's and 70's we are not hippies and uncultured liberals anymore.
Regarding Msgr. Guido Marini, Master of Ceremonies---
I feel some people are being a little harsh on him. I would think that his expertiese is with ceremonies, not music. When he came over to the U. S. to review the plans for the Mass, did he actually get a chance to hear the music? And can he actually speak English to communicate with the liturgy planners?
In my limited experience, MCs don't have a lot of control over the choir loft.
The true danger with all of this is that the contemporary liturgical musical establishment will claim that by having this music used for the Mass, the Pope is baptising and confirming these musical choices; i. e. "Well, it was good enough for the Pope."
2 thoughts. First being a good Augustinian, the Holy Father hopefully will be able to learn from evil. (the physical evil of some of these sound combinations)
Secondly, I think that it is telling that Christ never celebrated a full liturgy, in the strict sense in a large public place. And, when He was in large public spaces, they were fields and mountainsides, not the Roman amphitheaters. It seems that it would be better to have a papal mass out at the Manassas Battlefield and have 3/4 of the people be unable to hear, than to have a spectacle.
J states above: "The true danger with all of this is that the contemporary liturgical musical establishment will claim that by having this music used for the Mass, the Pope is baptising and confirming these musical choices; i. e. 'Well, it was good enough for the Pope.'"
Somehow, going forward, I think it would be more and more dangerous for the contemporary liturgical musical establishment to exercise this claim.
Unbelievable. And yet, entirely believable. Oh, and y'all need to quit using the adjective "Episcopalian" as a synonym for bad music, have you ever been to Evensong, or a Anglican High Mass? You wont find "Eagle's Wings" or "Mass of Creation" in the Hymnal 1982, let alone a Church of England Hymnal.
The majority of the music was truly execrable, and the only real relief I got were the comments by Raymond Arroyo and Fr. Neuhaus. I'm almost afraid to tune in for the Mass in NY tomorrow.
Perhaps Msgr. Marini needs a counterpart to review music on papal road shows.
Clint, how very true, my cousin is an Anglo-Catholic and believe me the High Mass of the Anglican-Catholics almost entirely in Latin, with chant, polyphony, hymms to Mary, is most stunning and oddly enough more Catholic and Roman than the Roman Catholic Church, how ironic is that? The High Anglo-Catholics are finding their way home to Rome where they belong, yet we seem to be leaving Rome.
George Clinton and the Parliamentary Pontifical Funkadelic...
...pass the Gonja to the left...
I mean, the thurible...
Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm 17, live in Kansas, and am a frequent reader of this blog (it's my favorite, up there with Fr. Z). So I read the comments here BEFORE watching the Mass, and thought some posters were exaggerating. I realized that they weren't. What on earth have I just heard? It's crazy. Insane. It sounds like a Broadway show (which I normally wouldn't mind, but it's Mass people). The Psalm was particularly dreadful. If anything, the 'exaggerations' were understatements. I swear I saw Pope Benedict's eyes roll.
Maybe everyone else was tuned into EWTN and the cameras didn't catch them, but did anyone else see the shot of the crowd on FOX during the Pope's homily and there was a block in the stands of about 20 nuns in black 1950's style habits with big white collars and black veils, some with white. Mostly all young. I know they were not cloistered nuns, because I know the Benedictine and Visitationist habits and they weren't either of those two Orders.
Also I saw a group of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, and Dominican friars in habits. Nice to see it.
Q: "I hit the mute fairly early in the broadcast. Does anyone know if they had banjos at the mass?"
A: "No banjos that I can discern"
And to think they claimed it was multi-cultural. ;-)
Wow, is Joan Lewis annoying.
Some of Fr. Neuhaus's comments:
"A Mass that everyone who is familiar with the thought of Pope Benedict will see as being striking in its deviation from almost everything that over the last 30 years Benedict has written about liturgy and sacred music."
"A preening exercise in multicultural exhibitionism."
"Rather unfortunate."
"A grand liturgical and musical stew."
"A great mish-mash of almost everything."
Wasn't posible arranging the papal altar whith both higher candlesticks and cross?
Daniel Weller, I agree it was insane. II almost could'nt believe it was really happening. In front of the pope even! Why don;t people just sing the Psalms to the gregorian Psalm tones? It's not that hard. I've mastered it , and with practice, anyone can do it without notation. We all know what Pius X said in Tra Le Sollecitudine about theatrical music, but apparently, the organizers of this event haven't. Or they just don't care.
(Interestingly, Daniel and I are the same age.)
Was waiting for "Shine, Jesus, Shine"!!!!!!
Daniel and Josiah...you are the future...become Cantors or Priests or marry and have 10 children...more even!
Of course, I did not mean to marry each other...I just realize how that appeared...so, so sorry!
Mea culpa!
I think people need to remember that the reform is taking place incrementally.
It occurs to me that had this been a Solemn Pontifical Mass in the Extraordinary Form, the fury from the "progressives" would have matched or surpassed that which we see here.
I am in no way condoning the musical travesty in Washington, but...we saw the lineup weeks ago, we knew it was coming, and why should we be surprised? This is, after all, truly representative of what happens in the majority of parishes across the US on Sundays. When music improves at the parish level on a large scale (and that is what we in the trenches are working for, no?) then big liturgies such as this will reflect that reality. I, for one, refuse to lose hope. As Jeffrey points out so well, perhaps this event marks the end of an era.
J Basil Damukaitis
I have chatted over the years with Dr Nestor and occasionally Dr Latona. I am glad Prof Marier wasn't alive to see this. One of the recessional pieces was by Dr Nestor but the EWTN folks were busy chatting.
I was telling some people that Leo Nestor would have been a much better choice for picking the Liturgy.
Cardinal McCarrick is the one who replaced the Novus Ordo Mass in the Crypt Church. I was a guard in a procession next to him with a fragment of the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Behind us was a Mariachi band. I found I kept humming Loudly Let the Trumpet Bray from Iolanthe during the procession. Tantantara Zing Boom.
I stood next to Archbishop Wuerl at the dedication of the Our Lady La Vang Chapel for about an hour on the steps of the Basilica while 6000 Vietnamese played drums, sang songs, and flower girls waved flowers about. During the Offertory the flower girls came out waving flowers and paraded about. But the 4 or 5 hour event was by and for the national Vietnamese community.
I was talking with my now retired Pastor years ago and he talked about saying Mass at Lourdes. Pilgrms from many countries were staying in hostels in the surrounding hills. At a night Mass there was a candle lit procession. Separate lines of lights from Pilgrims streamed down the hills. All of them were singing songs in their native languages. When the streams came together they all began to sing Credo III in Latin. Out of many cultures came one Church and one spirit with one Catholic identity.
I follwed monks at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem while they went about the Church saying prayers and chanting in Latin. Because I knew the what they were chanting so was able to sing and pray with them. Catholic means universal. This is the heart of our faith and all Catholics should know basic Latin prayers and Mass parts. In the end that's what makes us Catholic.
The other thing I would like to say is that those who would take this as a "last straw" and abandon the fold for schismatic organizations are playing directly into the hands of the progressives, who would like nothing better than for us of a traditional mindset to leave them unopposed. We must stay and persist in taking back the Sacred Liturgy.
I need to detoxify after watching the Mass. Does anybody know if there is a video online of last night's Vespers?
It's so hard, and painful, and sad, so, so often, when people want to participate in the Holy Mass, and there are so many objectionable things in front of one's face that one misses the good things going on underneath.
I'm not saying this is the participant's fault, or that said participant is hell-bent on getting caught up in the unhealthy things going on in the Liturgy, but that can be such a struggle at times.
It can be disheartening! How many times must one be subjected to (you name the gripe) before one throws up one's hands.
Sometimes (and I would say nearly all of the time) it isn't about a lack of faith. It comes down to, we're all human, we all have limits, and one can take getting kicked in the crotch only so much before one can't take it anymore.
@Brian Murphy:
You can find a rebroadcast of last night's Vespers here. (I'm watching it now as I missed the live broadcast.)
I think Fr. Neuhaus said it very well in his post-Mass commentary on EWTN:
"...but nothing, of course, can detract from - never mind negate - the Real Presence of Christ and the eternal astonishment of the Eucharist."
Surely Our Lord Jesus has the power to rise above our human failings.
Speaking as a parochial musician, the Faith is not, in the end, about music.
Perhaps we should take up a collection and send a copy of The Spirit of the Liturgy to every Bishop in the USA.
Unreal. What a circus.
Aristotle,
Thank you so much, the Vespers is beautiful and the Holy Father's enjoyment of it is palpable, he is really entering into the prayer.
Man I wish we had vespers and liturgy like that spread throughout the country on a daily/weekly basis.
Save the Liturgy, Save the World.
The overall choice of music displayed this morning at the Papal Mass was painfully appalling, scandalous, and utterly disrespectful of the sacred liturgy of the Church.
Caribean music of ofertory procession absolutely disturbing.
Matthew of the Holy Whapping said:
"we Latins deserve not to be fobbed off with "Pan de Vida," poncho chausuables,[sic] and the like."
I completely agree. The Spanish music I hear at Mass in the US is an insult to my Spanish heritage. I have brought this complaint many times to those who make decisions but they (who are not Latino) think they know better because they are compassionate. I really think that it is a form of racism - not blatant or intentional but racism all the same.
We can all hope, as some have already said, that this will be viewed in history as the last gasp emanating from the so-called "spirit of Vatican II" as the Holy Father drives the Processional Cross of Blessed Pio Nono through it's heart. Being in my late 20's I have the privilege of being able to look at the conciliar and immediate post-conciliar era as a historical event just the same as the pre-Vatican II period. I think this gives my generation and future generations a certain objective perspective because it necessitates a certain reading and interpreting of the conciliar and post-conciliar text apart from the ethos of the Vatican II generation. As my and later generations begin to take leadership roles we will see a significant change in celebration of the liturgy. Remember, we are watching and learning from our Holy Father and I think he is creating students who share his image of worship all the more as he practices what he has preached and written on for so many years.
An interest of mine will be to see a contrast made between the DC Mass and the NY Mass. Gathering an idea of what will be done based on the released musical selections it seems to me that it will create a resource. Any person out there who has influence over liturgy will be able to show in video a side by side demonstration of what to do and what not to do for any liturgy training that is done on the parish level. I think that we should take advantage of the gift of media files for such a teaching moment.
Also, as a side note, I must disagree with almost everyone here about Placido Domingo. I love the man and his God gifted talent. I also love Panis Angelicus. The problem is that it was sung in an Operatic manner which I don't believe is proper for the liturgy. This is my major critique of most places that have "good" music in the US. Male and female cantors often sing as if they are a soloist in a performance rather than assisting the prayer of the Mass. The operatic style of singing is fitting for performance and not the reflective nature of sacred music. So, I would also put that musical piece in the same pile of poor choices that permeated this Mass.
Piano & blues at Communion???
Br. Gabriel,
I agree with you completely.
In regards to Placido Domingo, it seemed to be a small little concert (and a fabulous one) rather than an integral part of the seamless worship of our Lord, but being that the Mass was mostly a spectacle (and a poor one), it was fitting.
i think the music reflected what life here is really like. and people gave it their all. all the competing trends were competing. there was everything except the proper of the mass, which is missing almost everywhere. if only they had used the sanctus and agnus dei that matched the gloria. music is really evolving.
Just curious about the 7th candle on the Papal altar outside of the diocese of Rome. I was under the impression that a 7th candle was only used by the ordinary of a diocese in his diocese. Is the Holy Father an exception to this custom or does the presence of the ordinary of the diocese as a con-celebrant, in this case the Archbishop of Washington, allow its use or perhaps there is another reason all together?
Another question if I may. I notice that at the Mass at the Nationals Stadium and at the Vespers in the National Shrine, as seems to have been the custom with John Paul II, the Papal thrones are upholstered in white, whereas since the arrival of Msgr Marini we have been seeing less white and much more red around the Holy Father during various liturgies. Was white merely a more recent custom and is there something significant in the colours or is it merely a matter of preference?
I can't speak to the colors but only the use of the 7th candle.
It is true that it is used only for the Ordinary of the (Arch)Diocese. However, the Holy Father is the Ordinary of the Universal Church and as such has full and immediate jurisdiction in any See (this is the issue of Papal Primacy that is the issue between us and the so-called Easter "Orthodox"). For this reason it is proper that the 7th Candle is used. I believe that if the United States still had a Primate the 7th candle could be used by him in any US Diocese. I also think that Metropolitans in their suffrages are able to use the 7th candle. However, on this last point I am not 100% sure.
It really is embarassing, I feel embarassed for the Holy Father, though I know he (and Jesus!) have been through worse but still. It really gets me that every little group has get their soundbite song or someone gets mad about being left out. Well, presumably someone gets mad. At my parish, my priest and I decided to cut out the biligual stuff during Holy Week, because it was frankly too distracting and felt like a competition between the Anglos and the Hispanics, and that is AWFUL. And honestly, I get more heartfelt compliments from the Hispanic folks now than when we were doing biligual Holy Week. They seem very grateful to just be a part of a larger Catholic community and not a novelty or an ethnic decoration.
You are quite right, the USCCB are deleting like fury from their comments box, my two-line lamentation was gone after an hour, and it is amusing that, as I write, there are 322 post on this thread, nearly all negative, and 106 posts on Mr Tucker's music thread, but ONLY $ surviving on the USCCB. I think we know the posters of this blog well enough to judge that USCCB must have received say 50 comments, at a conservative estimate, thus less than 10% are deemed suitable, and while all perfectly sound, none praises the music!
http://usccb.wordpress.com/2008/...rk/#comment-
265
Regarding the colour of papal upholstery (!), it has been noted that the original papal colour is red, and a vestige of this remains in the colour of the pope's (non-Easter) mozetta, his shoes and his saturno and cape (when used). White is a later development which might explain why papal seats used to be upholstered in (the older) red rather than white. Or, it may simply be that red is more regal and practical! :)
In fairness regarding my earlier comments I will say that i watched the re-run of the mass last night and the charges on the shield of the papal coat of arms on the back of the chair actually were there. It was not a blank shield as I had thought. But, they were very, VERY faint so the shield did appear to be blank. In addition, the rest of the coat of arms was indeed carved in outline form only so it was still a poor way of displaying the coat of arms.
Fascinating to read all of the angry posts complaining of liturgical error or horrid music *whilst the Mass was still going on*! One wonders if the self-centeredness exhibited by such posters prohibits them from seeing Christ entirely. Some self examination would be more beneficial, I think, than the more natural (and much less difficult) urge to participate in conflagrative discussion of offenses made by organizers.
Does anyone know why the Pope did not chant his parts for the Mass? Not even the Sursum corda or preface. Is this an indication of his favouring the different levels of solemnity--in this case Mass with music as opposed to Sung Mass. I was rather surprised, since the celebrant's singing is such an important element in establishing the solemnity of a celebration.
Just curious,
Anastasi...
The sudden corporeal appearance of Jesus, Mary and the Communion of Saints up on the "stage" wouldn't have been able to impart solemnity on this wreck. I would like to think that he just gave up, realizing tht given the context, his chanting would be out of place (as was the sudden singing of the Ubi Caritas, although that only lasted a few brief seconds before the Jazz Piano and Drums chimed in).
I've decided the final word goes to my sainted mother who wrote me
"Deo gratias! Now the Holy Father has experienced the abominations we endure on the average Sunday at the average Mass in the average American parish. What I hope comes from it is a new encyclical or even a Constitution on Sacred Music from Pope Benedict. Now wouldn't that be wonderful?"
Yes, it would be wonderful. God grant that it may be so.
Why did the Pope not sing his parts? My guess is that he just wanted peace and wanted to make no contribution at all to the cacophony that obviously displeased him.
As someone who was actually present (and close to the altar at that), I have to say that many of the negative comments seem exaggerated or the result of misapprehension of what actually occured. Yes, much of the music was unfortunate (in choice and execution), but (with the exception of the psalm) it was not absolutely awful in person.
Keep in mind that this was a liturgy, not a television special. The focus was the worship of those present, not what would be transmitted through television or internet. To see something like this on television is not nearly the same experience as being there. Television emphasizes some aspects and ignores others, e.g. the cameras pan the choir and the congregation, while most people are focused on the sacrifice of Calvary re-presented in the sanctuary. It seems that it was easier for those present to tune out the musical horrors than for those watching via some form of broadcast.
In one sense, this was just a humble priest celebrating the Mass, the same Mass (in essence if not accident) as was celebrated that day by a priest in an African village, by another priest in an underground church in China, by another in a mountain town in Germany, by another in a resort in Cancun, and by another in the splendor of St. Peter's basilica.
Isn't it more helpful to focus on whatever was positive and to be resolved to do what we can to improve the state of liturgy instead of griping about it. Until we have spent many sleepless months planning a papal visit, it seems outside Christian charity to attack so harshly.
To clear up a few questioned posed, my very reliable sources tell me the following:
At the sign of peace, the deacon did as he was told. He did not ad-lib. Assign blame as you will, but not to the deacon or his seminary.
The vestments were either raw silk or Dupioni silk.
There was indeed an asterix on the HF's host.
Marini does not speak English, but one of his assistants is an American.
A little known fact that should please many reading this: the altar contained a historic altar stone (used by Bishop John Carroll, first bishop of Baltimore).
http://www.washingtontimes.com/a.../334840978/
1002
As of today, Friday at 7pm, the USCCB site has four (!) very nice comments on the post you mention. Evidently the Mass was ... a [rousing] success. The bishops' liturgy bloggers can take this positive feedback to the appropriate authorities when the time comes.
John:
Quite frankly, you aer right, I had forgotten these multi-cultural extravaganzas at the Shrine Bar and Grill. I had been a server and mc there in the late 80's, early 90's and you have rightly pointed out I have a deeply selective memory! I prefer to remember the wonderful music Leo (who's a riot!) produced for the Sacred Liturgy Sunday after Sunday, year after year, feast after feast. I forgot about the silly occasional special multi-cultural crap.
Yes, I heard Uncle Teddy roundly dismisse the Missa de Urbanum from the crypt. (We called it that because Dom Urban from the Abbey was the regular celebrant) in favor of a Spanish Mass, despite the requisite for Latin Masses in a basilica.
Thank you.
I just heard you talk about Kerry and Pelosi receiving the Eucharist despite their pro-abortion
voting records. Yet I never heard anyone (superior, Bishop,etc.) discipline Father Drinan or prevent him from offering mass.Yet his pro-abortion voting was 100%. HE even applauded Clinton's veto of the ban on partial birth abortion. When Pelosi became speaker of the house, he offered mass for her at Trinity College. Was he ever sanctioned by anyone? I think the pro-abortion Catholic legislators felt that if it was OK for a priest to vote pro-abortion, then it couldn't be all that bad. Do you know more than I do? Please comment.
PAPA'S NEXT COUNTRY TO VISIT IS AUSTRALIA.
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