Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
This is so incredibly depressing. You couldn't pay me to go to this event.
david dunkle
Well, my guess is that seals the deal on the appointment in New York shortly after the Holy Father is back in Rome after his visit. Essentially, this begs "send us the most conservative, reform of the reform guy you have."
Actually, the appointment is already made and the brief written, but this will confirm that it is a good choice.
Would you mind letting people know about this excellent new blog that promotes vocations to Traditional Societies in Union with Pope Benedict XVI: http://tradvocations.blogspot.com
God bless you!
They probably want to make it look like the Catholic Church is "current" since many people in America who aren't Catholic will be watching; but how insulting, to insinuate that people are too stupid or uncultured to appreciate and be moved by chant, polyphony, etc. All of these dumbed down songs are starting to hurt my ears. Of course, there's nothing wrong with the songs intrinsically, but they really change everything for the worse IMHO.
It is interesting to note that, in terms of the musical culture of Catholic Africans in the New World, in Brazil, the closest equivalent to a "spiritual" appears to have been highly elaborate Baroque mass settings and motets, if this CD is to be believed:
http://www.amazon.fr/Negro-Spiri...06713775&sr=8-
7
And there is, of course, le Chevalier St.-Georges.
http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.h....com/
Page1.html
Perhaps it is because I am from Canada, but I do not know the vast majority of this music. Imagine! If I were at this mass I could not "fully participate".
I was 16 when I attended my first outdoor papal Mass in Ottawa. I had problems with this back then, problems which have only deepened over time.
True active participation is virtually impossible. People are talking, moving about, eating lunch, and much worse. It is more a theatrical performance than The Liturgy of the Church. Why not some sort of prayer service? Vespers done well?
Giles,
Is this fact or conjecture on your part?
This is nothing more than in your face attitude of the "Americanist" hierarchy.
It's to let the Holy Father know he can issue all the decree's he wants, but "qui commando io" (here I'm in command).
Bishop Perry, an African-American and auxiliary bishop of Chicago would not be amused. He is a frequent celebrant of the TLM at St. John Cantius in Chicago and is a strong supporter of the Canons of St. John Cantius, which celebrates both the OF and EF in Latin, and the Institute of Christ the King, dedicated to celebrating the sacraments according to the 1962 books. I guess Bishop Perry didn't get the directive from "liberalville" that he should be swaying to the msuic of the negro spirituals, allegedly indigenous to black Catholics in America, at least according to the White liberal establishment. What utter condescending nonsense.Tom
I agree with Fr. Beachey that these big cast-of-thousands Masses seldom if ever "work" liturgically. An outdoor setting does not lend itself to reverence. Even in St. Peter's Square, many of those attending papal Masses do not behave appropriately - waving at cameras, chatting, applauding choirs, eating, and so on.
I realize that such events aim at allowing as many people as possible to be present with the Holy Father, which is a fine thing, but why must it always be the holy Mass which is subjected to this treatment? Why not a papal audience, followed by a simple Vespers with an apostolic blessing? As the people are gathering for such an event, and as they are waiting to leave, would be the appropriate time for the non-liturgical songs on this list.
Kirby Shaw's name should not appear on a list of music for a Papal Mass!
"The director Tom Stehle says that the music announced so far "represents our long Catholic and Christian tradition and the current diversity of our church."
Tom Stehle is a liar and a thief. He is a liar because any reasonable musician knows that this music list does not in any way represent the so called long Catholic "tradition" which he speaks of. He is a thief because he robs the faithful of God the right to devoutly assist at Mass with the proper music which the Church has assigned for it.
The Archdiocese of Washington is a huge disappointment - not just to itself, but to the United States of America, and to both Catholics and non-Catholics around the world.
Didn't Marini come over to fix this? I distinctly remember news about the Holy Father sending him to the U.S. to check on liturgical development. What happened?
What happened?
What's happening is that, as has happened so many times before, the American bishops (and/or their liturgical apparatchiks) are flipping the bird to Catholic tradition, liturgical norms, and to the holy father.
Every time one of these cast-of-thousands liturgical monstrosities are perpetrated, it reinforces among the thousands who attend, and countless more who watch on TV, that this dreck is somehow normative.
And you'd better realize, the bishops and their apparatchiks know this.
As a very active Catholic in the Archdiocese of Washington, I find none of this surprising. The general level of liturgical music here is relentlessly Am-Cath and in the thrall of the so-called Catholic publishers. One mentions musical quality and beauty in most quarters (but definitely not all) at great risk to one's well-being. ADW is fortunate not to have had a big, activist liturgy/worship office. The downside of this is, however, is that there was no structure in place to deal with the Apostolic Visit. So, default to the lowest common denominator was inevitable. Also, because of the prominence of the National Shrine Basilica, music and liturgy at the official cathedral are not a particular focus within the archdiocese and its structures as is the case in NYC. And one should always remember the organizational truism: The mediocre always look after their own.
I'm happy that there will be a Gregorian Gloria, but still... I agree that it is so insulting to our Catholic identity and sensibilities to include such "culturally sensitive songs". Contrary to what the youth would be expecting, His Holiness is not going to "get jiggy" with the youth or anything of the sorts. I wonder, is everyone going to "dress up" in tee-shirt and jeans, hold hands around the free standing altar and sing "On Eagles' Wings"?
On the subject of "culturally sensitive" songs, I kind of find it irritating to attend a mass with propers from different languages. My impression of the whole point of using Vernacular settings is for the lay faithful to better comprehend what they are saying. Uh, bam, I'm Vietnamese and I do not know a lick of Tagalog or Native American tongues whenever I attend a mass which uses the Spirit and Song "hymnal". If anything, I find it insulting that the mass parts of my language have been reduced to a trite tune that is mispronounced by a predominantly white, non-Vietnamese congregation (happens here, I don't attend anymore). Grrr...
I am very hurt and disappointed that this would be taking place in my own native archdiocese - this is a cultural and liturgical travesty and may God forgive us. Pope John Paul II was greeted to the beat of rappers at Camden Yards in 1995, and the very notion that even light rock would be considered to welcome Pope Benedict, who has said that this is an example of the antithesis of music in the past, is just outrageous. I think a respectful but firm and organized protest is in order to those responsible. I do not regret for a minute my decision years ago to cross the river and seek the sacraments in the Diocese of Arlington. This is being handled as if the Vicar of Christ lived around the corner and was showing up for his usual visit.... I am curious, though, if this was approved or not by Monsignor Marini? It was my understanding that all aspects of the liturgy had to be expressly approved by the Papal Master of Ceremonies.
Really, "Plenty Good Room"? They couldn't come up with, or even (heaven forfend) commission a work that actually, had, like, something to do with the actual Roman rite?
This is a disappointment. What is wrong with the vast treasury of our Catholic musical heritage?
At the same time, I do not really like the idea of these Masses with tens of thousands of people. I can understand the reason, but if these people want to be with the Pope they can do so outside of Holy Mass.
Gee, and I complain when on occasion my choir sings the Cherubic Hymn to the melody of "Nearer my God to Thee". By the way do you know what a camel is? It is a horse put together by a committee.
For God so love the world that He did not send us a committee.
Personnel is policy. Until Benedict figures that out and acts upon it, this is what we'll continue to get.
I've got my ticket to the papal Mass. Too bad it's going to be another near occasion of sin.
And, to Hung Doan, my Vietnamese brother, speaking as a middle-class white guy, I'd like to say that he's absolutely right. The Vietnamese, Native American, Spanish, and afro-american gospel bits are all about making us whites feel good about ourselves. It is racist condescension to the poor ignorant peoples of color. Shameful.
Truly diaspointing but truly no surprise. The Episcopalian bishop of Pittsburg was more a catholic than the former Bishop of Pittsburg Donald Wuerl. The NCCB being here in DC and the grand architect of the destruction of the old rite following Vatican II still has a strong presence in la la land. The huge number of religious house of studies that have closed around CU is ignored and looked on as a good thing. The ones that remain are modernist in the worst sense of the word. No exceptions. A few pieces of lace and a Roman Chasuable does not make one a Catholic.
His Holiness should cancel.
Of course this is a good opportunity for the Holy Father to "tart up" the liturgy a bit and really show Americans how inappropriate this musical selection is for Catholic worship. The contrast could be striking...
Gregory:
Cancelling would be an EXCELLENT move at this point. If there is ever a time and a place to take a stand on the issue of liturgical music, this would be it. My other hope would be a homily on the Church's traditions and heritage, using the music at the Mass as an example of what is wrong. Either that, or a very public letter from the Holy See indicating what music will be part of the Mass, providing a trained schola and Director if necessary.
americhurch is a separate body.
Ugh.
After all our hard work in our parishes ("this is what the Holy Father wants us to do" etc.), and I'm going to have to fight off whiny parishioners for weeks (months, years?) complaining, "...but they approved that music for the POPE..."
*sigh*
Why doesn't Marini simply plan to have a certain choir perform? Disregard the other choices and allow one to sing approved songs. Honestly, it can't be that difficult.
This is going to set the "reform of the reform" back for sure. The liturgical modernists will have ammunition for years to come- "if it's good enough for the Pope it's good enough for us" (now if only they saw that on a doctrinal level... I digress).
What we really need is clear, straightforward instruction from Rome that emphasizes the importance of music and the liturgical role played by the choir.
Could someone inform Msgr. Marini of what is about to take place or do you think he already knows?
I'd guess that the Vatican is perfectly used to music at papal Masses overseas reflecting the local culture. Think back to the Masses in Brazil last year, for example. I don't remember any chant in those, and no one seemed to care.
Too bad our local "culture" is, you know, Barry Manilow and Neil Diamond.
I would be embarassed to be part of this road show. So sad the Holy Father will have to endure this POP culture torture. How about hiring George Michael to sing some of his early works such as "You gotta have Faith" or maybe we could get Whoopi Goldberg to perform as a Sister Mary Tabernacle, and her posse (the nuns form Sister Act). No disprespect intended, but we have so much music listed in the Kyriale, Liber Usualis, etc(Sory if I misspell anything)and they wnat to continue to use the Music of "Grease" the musical. I feel shame.
I wish the Papal M.C. would step in, but it looks as if time is tight.
This, to me, speaks of a more fundamental issue in the U.S. Church--a schizophrenia about what exactly we are. Are we traditional? Multi-cultural? Contemporary? Classical? All of that? I suspect the answer is "all of that," in which case what are we? Nothing at all.
On a more micro level, I witness this constantly in my own parish...my pastor (God bless him) is a wonderful, orthodox priest and appreciative of tradition. But he'll wear a biretta on a feast day, while a week later his male and female servers will wear the white robes with sneakers. I suspect (because I know him well) that his priestly hands are tied by higher bureaucratic "policies" and the chancery's liturgical Gestapo.
As an aside, I am skeptical of the "with Vatican approval" statement from the D.C. diocese. What info was provided and who exactly approved it?
It is time that believing Catholics wake up. The problem is not cultural or aesthetic, its simply a matter of faith. Most Catholics, according a recent pole, do not believe that Christ is present in eucharist. So what do you expect? They will sing and dance in an effort to entertain themselves and celebrate catholicism as an expression of human culture. This will go on untile they become bored. I'll give the Catholic church of Vatican Council II another generation. After that perhaps Christ will have come to sort out the matter for good. In any case, the time is near. Marana tha!
Like someone said earlier I think that instead of an outdoor mass there should be a general papal audience at this event. Then all the choirs could sing whatever they would want to sing and it would be ok to do it with "performance" attitude.
Aren't all Catholics in communion with the Pope and with each other every time they attend the Mass? This does not have to be emphasized with papal outdoor masses for thousands and thousands of faithfull. I guess it is not even possible for everyone there to receive the Eucharist? So it kind of misses the whole point?
Added some sound files.
Kristiina:
When I worked on the papal liturgy here in St. Louis, Vatican directives allotted 20minutes for communion, that's it (of course this was under the ailing JPII). We actually go communion to 120 thousand in 25 minutes. So I assume they are going to try to do it.
The fact is, reception of communion in these conditions is irreverent from the start. We did well here, when the Holy Father was in Baltimore, I'm told leftover hosts were literally tossed into huge rubbermaid garbage containers with crosses spray painted on them, which is why Cardinal Rigali was so festidious about how we handled it here in STL. (A special tabernacle was constructed with a temporary chapel in the TWA dome where nuns knelt in adoration until the hosts were distributed to parishes throughout the archdiocese.)
Great. Just when we've made a successful push to implement chant in our parish...
I couldn't be more delighted with the selections! Let His Holiness see and hear what we are really dealing with in this country. How useful would it be if the American Catholics cleaned up and sang the musical treasure of inestimable value ONLY when the pope was in town? That would be as dishonest as the Potemkin Village. I say, "Let 'er rip."
I heard "Peter Cottontail" at Easter Vigil last week, and had to hippity-hop out the door before I screamed! I've heard kazoos at Mass.
If we're waiting for more direct language from Rome about what NOT to do, let's give Benedict XVI some examples. Perhaps this music will inspire him to crack down.
I can't wait for the axe to fall. Send in the clowns!
I'm not sure that offering God our most beautiful music during the Holy Father's masses would create a Potemkin Liturgy.
There are, after all, many bishops in this country who are in full communion in heart and mind with the Holy Father, and I'm certain that he's very much aware of it as the fruits of their faithfulness are visible worldwide (the presence of the FSSP and ICKSP in America, Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem, Clear Creek, etc). The presence of these fraternities and orders had to be approved by someone! America is not totally in schism.
I do agree, though, that it is probably best to let this play out the way it's been planned to.
The American people, clerics and laypeople alike, as well as the entire Roman curia (who I'm sure will be watching from the comfort of their Roman apartments) will see the effects of the damage that our schismatic (yes, I truly mean that) bishops have caused.
Let the chastisement begin.
I can certainly understand the Potemkin Village reference. Feed the faithful musical and liturgical garbage until Somebody Important is watching, and then offer up the best. As soon as the pope flys home, back to the garbage.
Of course a Mass with the Holy Father should have quality, suitable music. But so should one Mass, at least, in every parish on every Sunday.
I pray that the Pope will sing the Mass (maybe in Latin). There is nothing like a humble priest chanting the Mass to highlight the inappropriate pop hymns. Put the chanting next to the hymns and the hymns will sound horribly out of place.
I wonder if Rome's response to this is just to shake their heads and think "silly Americans, they don't know any better". They probably think this is the best we can offer. They view our musical program as similar to the African tribe that puts their best drummers and singers together for a papal Mass..."the music is bad, but hey, it's the best they can do, and their hearts in the right place. It is the Holy Father after all." They probably think that this drivel is the best that we culturally deprived silly Americans can put together.
I thought the cathedral of St Matthew had an excellent Schola Cantorum that sings Gregorian chant.
They should just use that choir instead. Seriously.
This is not just a disgrace to the American church. As a UK catholic, I say this is a disgrace to Christendom as a whole.
Not to burst any bubbles here, especially those filled with hope that His Holiness will jump from his throne in outrage at the first notes of the Mass of Creation and proceed to lecture the American bishops and liturgists on the true Spirit of the Liturgy, but it is unlikely that the Holy Father will be anything but diplomatic and accepting when presented with these works.
Other countries have their share of Marty Haugens and His Holiness has been treated to the rotten fruits of these composers in Poland, Brazil, and plenty of times in Italy.
goes to prove whos still in charge of the american church (hint...it aint us)
much work remains to be done.
Even if one were in total disagreement with the Holy Father as to of what proper liturgical music consists, simple politeness would dictate that when you have a guest over, you try to make him/her feel comfortable by offering what THEY enjoy, not what you like. Sick, sick, sick...
Let's not pretend that the situation in the US is unique. I've heard plenty of mass music in europe that is is just as pop-based and ignorant of tradition as Haugen-Haas nonsense. Marco Frisina's compositions come to mind (often accompanying televised vatican celebrations), as are many of the Taize compositions that, for some strange reason, people often call 'chant.' I doubt that the Holy Father will hear in DC something much less appropriate to the Catholic liturgy than what he's already heard in Europe. Things are pretty depressing all around the globe.
Still holding out hope that Benedict will chant the Canon, or at least the consecration, on his own initiative...
This is so sad, but remember, prayer is the only, and the most powerful weapon. Campaigning and objecting, worldly tools, are the weapons of the opposition – those who seek worldly power will eventually fall away. You KNOW you are right, and think with the mind of the Church, so ask the Holy Spirit to help you and He will. Remember He is greatly pained by these abuses carried out by those who claim to be His children, and the more they insist of their own personal choices, the further they distance themselves from Him. Pray also to Saint Caecilia, and one day this will all come right.
We in Europe shall be praying for and with you all as the Holy Father comes to visit you.
Let this visit be an occasion for great Grace for your great country.
i am sure the music, vestment etc. will be cheap BECAUSE FOR THE N. O.
NOTHING IS TOO CHEAP FOR GOD
I wonder if anybody (meaning anybody of prominence) will wonder aloud why the music selected for a Mass in the U.S is not in conformity with the recent USCCB document "Sing To The Lord"... ater all, this document was approved by a majority of Bishops and is, ostensibly, the document currently in force. Where is the Entrance Antiphon from the Graduale Romanum (as is indicated in STTL) or the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin (as is indicated in STTL). Surely this "all-star" choir would be proficient enough to sing some of the "more difficult chants" from the Graduale (as is indicated in SttL)... not to mention the very prominent directive in SttL:
-------
62. At international and multicultural gatherings of different language groups, it is most
appropriate to celebrate the Liturgy in Latin, “with the exception of the readings, the homily and
the prayer of the faithful.”61 In addition, “selections of Gregorian chant should be sung” at such
gatherings, whenever possible.62
----
I mean...if the choir is singing "in ten different languages", I'm guessing that this is a multi-cultural gathering!! Perhap the Director hasn't gotten around to reading the document yet...
(yes...I'm being totally facisious here...!!)
Bravo, Chironomo!
If we're going to celebrate diversity I guess we'll have to uni-fy (as in uni-versal) and switch to the one language that we, as Roman Catholics all share--Latin! Remind me, 'cause I keep forgetting--when did Jesus pray that we all be diverse?
This is greatly disappointing.
our long Catholic and Christian tradition
The one that dates back to the beginning of the Church.
You know, 1969.
I love spirituals and I'm descended from a long line of Baptists, so I've got some ethnic credentials in that area. But honestly, this music has nothing to do with Catholic liturgy. It's about a show. Fine, cancel the Mass and have a musical performance instead.
And I agree that it's condescending for us white folks to massacre Spanish, Tagalog, Vietnamese, Creole, etc. in order to show others how "welcoming" we are. What about the musical compositions from the Mexico City Cathedral or Salas of Cuba?
It reminds me of an Episcopal (and entirely white) church that invited one of our neighboring (entirely black) churches to visit every year and the choir insisted on doing "Lift Every Voice and Sing," no matter what I said. Our visitors kindly kept their thoughts to themselves.
The web site says these will be sung during the "processions and prelude", so perhaps they're only on the fringe of the liturgical action... maybe...
Processions: Introit, Offertory, Communion.
As a convert to the church, I am insulted that those in the Church seems to be, at least in the US, unwilling to stand up to this crap! When are those who love the Church and all her history, going to stop just taking this?!!
PROTEST is in order and I mean LOUD SHOUTING protest that shakes the walls of the Vatican!!!
It is time to override, overrule and overtake the bad shepherds in the country, that want only to be "relevant". BAH!!!!!
The Pope's MC better grow a backbone real fast or all the work the pope has done will mean nothing to those of us who believe Benedict when he says what was in the past is good for today too.
I for one will not go to D.C. if this mess of a mass is not corrected. I have saved a lot of money to try to attend one of the pope's masses while he is on American soil and I will not spend that hard earned money to see a mess!!
I am hurt by this silliness and the idea that somehow, Protostant gospel music is appropriate for Catholic masses. I came to Rome to escape the kind of mush coming from the Baptist suditoriums of thousands that I once attended. I wanted the truth...not "let's draw everyone in with a relevant program" kind of show we put on each and every Sunday.
bjr
What I don't at all understand is why Rome doesn't take a stronger stand against what is a brazen slap in the Holy Father's face. Why can't the Holy Father say, "This is the way it is to be" regarding the strictures associated with music. The planners for DC are certainly aware of what they are doing in this regard. Is it not time to take off the gloves and start enforcing rather than suggesting reform of the reform?
The point is, the Vatican doesn't know the music that we use here in the US and thus cannot discern between appropriate and inappropriate music. They rely upon the USCCB and diocesan officials to make decisions which they hope are appropriate. This is why NY's music is much better than DC's. What is needed is people in the USCCB and diocesan positions of influence who are on the right track -- a reality all too often lacking.
Absolute defiance to the wishes of the Holy Father in regards to the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass. And they know it to!. These liberal, so called "liturgists", need to be removed from their positions, and the Bishops who support them.
*sugh* As an african-american I really do see it condescending for people (espceially the liturgists at predominitle African-American parishes ) To say that Gospel music is THE music for black people. Now, I'm a convert, and I probably know more gospel music by heart than any of them, but I would never, under any circumstances use it as mass. It's truly been a great embarrassment to me as a Catholic to go to your normal African- American Sunday mass. Hauguen, Haas, gospel music and disobedience to liturgical laws abound. When I tell them that the music they say is ethnically ours has nothing to do with our faith, which is more important that expressing our own self-identity, you can be sure that they will fall back on the USCCB or some other semi-disobedient group of liturgeists.
It's actually this generalization that gives me a fear of entering the seminary. I would'nt want to end up as parish priest in a place like that.
I propose the Holy Father transports the choir of the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore to DC to sing at Mass. It would show the US what a real choir sounds like.
I hope Cardinal Castrillón is also present. To get a first hand glimpse at all the litugical abuses going on that he has heard about.
This leaves me very very worried about the Mass I'll be attending in New York.
IHS: "Ut unum sint"
The progressive multiculturalist liturgist: "Ut diversi et multi sint"
The choice is clear.
How embarrassing will that be for us if the Pope himself complains about the liturgy of the Mass!
A happy upcoming Low Sunday and Divine Mercy weekend to everyone here, and those you love!
There are a couple of thoughts I have. First, I can definitely support you, Josiah, in your comments. At one time my wife and I belonged to a parish that was unmistakenely "white bread" (and we left!), where "Soon and Very Soon" (which I happen to love) was sung by the lily-white choir. I am white, not ashamed of it, and I love Gospel music, but it's more of the same "relevance" and "inclusivity" and "global outlook" piped by lily white liturgists that really turns my stomach.
I guess it's no surprise that the Holy Father will have to endure these things while he is here.
The second thought is that the description of the upcoming Papal Mass does, indeed, sound like a songfest, and not like a Mass at all. It's very sad.
I have friends who are Anglican and Eastern Orthodox who will show, and do show, more respect for the Holy Father than many liturgists in the American Church.
Sorry, folks...
...I almost forgot: Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church, so I think it's pretty safe to say that unhealthy liturgical and musical tendencies in the Church will not prevail, either.
Too, it's Easter time! Liturgical naziism of any form cannot scquelch the power of the Resurrection!
If one bothers to read the ADW press release - which I hadn't until now - these pieces are being performed during the prelude and procession - which seems to be an important part of the story that has been lost. While some of these pieces are not of my taste (I, for one, am partial to Bruckner's Ecce Sacerdos Magnus) and possibly reflect a kind of PC "diversity" ideology that normally would make me want to gag, it is overshooting the mark to say that it is per se illegitimate to perform "Plenty Good Room" as a prelude at a large papal mass in a stadium. Moreover, there is a indigenous black Catholic community within the boundaries of the Archdiocese of Washington, some of which dates back to colonial times, which has had a fair amount of cross-pollination with Baptist and Pentecostal movements over the years. I detect a kind of reverse philistinism amongst some of the self-styled "restorationists" that is the very mirror image of the philistinism of the cultural revolutionaries who acted as if nothing produced before 1965 had anything to offer.
A papal "smackdown" of the bishops is long overdue.
This trip is the perfect setting for an old fashion schooling on Catholic liturgy, and if any bishop doesn't think that he can comply, then all I have to say to him is don't let the cathedral door hit you on the way out your eminence.
If any bishop only want to dress the part of a Catholic cleric, while discarding Catholic tradition, then he can join this church and look as Cathlic as he wants without any of the pesky liturgical traditions associated with Rome.
I've never heard Father Johansen so angry! He sounded like an Old Testament prophet.
I think that those who are hoping the Holy Father will horsewhip our bishops for the music of the papal liturgies are doomed to disappointment. This pope has already shown that he does not work that way; Benedict will be a gracious guest like the gentleman that he is. Then he will return home and continue to quietly but firmly advance the reform of the Liturgy through more subtle and ultimately more effective methods: by changing hearts rather than simply imposing discipline.
john m,
You may be right, but it appears as though the bishops have had no compucntion imposing really bad liturgy upon the masses, not to mention THE MASS, for the last 40 years.
@ Bob Glassmeyer:
"...'Soon and Very Soon (which I happen to love)'"
Nothing personal, Bob, but:
are you SERIOUS????
LOL :)
What a HUGE disappointment. Archbishop "Don"...should get sacked for allowing this nonsense to go on. Actually, it would be a good thing for most of our bishops to get 'sacked' since so many of them lack a spine and continue to allow this crap to contine in our parishes.
I love our Holy Father, but he made a HUGE mistake in placing "Uncle Don" as archbishop of DC....just imagine when he (Wuerl) get's elevated to the College of Cardinals! God help us!
Those of you worried about the music when the Pope visits New York need not be worried. Dr. Jennifer Pascual, director of music at St. Pat's, is in charge of it. Here's the list that was posted on the Tim Drake's Pope2008 blog:
http://pope2008.typepad.com/
webl...correction.html
Though this is disappointing and embarrassing, BXVI has consistently shown he's a man of BOTH enormous social grace AND direct correction.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if he used the opportunity wisely, incorporating liturgical formation and chanting at least some of his parts.
M.J. Ernst-Sandoval puts that hope well in an earlier post-
'Of course this is a good opportunity for the Holy Father to "tart up" the liturgy a bit and really show Americans how inappropriate this musical selection is for Catholic worship. The contrast could be striking...'
This is my prayer, the only one left if those in D.C. succeed in confusing the Mass with a multi-cultural choir concert. (Even if the showy stuff is mostly during a prelude, the Introit, Offertory, and Communion processions are PART OF the Mass, as Jeffrey noted.)
It does seem that these 'liturgists' are more interested in displaying American cultural diversity to BXVI than gee, PRAYING with him to our Risen Lord.
Simply put, I think these large-scale Masses should not be happening. His Holiness even said something similar himself recently.
These Masses have turned into a mere spectacle- a thought that should make anyone who cares for "active participation" of the faithful shudder. Reverance is lost.
If this is true, I agree that it is a huge disappointment and is really depressing. One wonders why the Pope and his MC can't prevent this. Unfortunately, it's a sad but accurate reflection of the state of liturgy and music in the American church, notwithstanding the hopeful signs that things may be changing over the very long term - but only in little baby steps. What a missed ooportunity.
"sugh* As an african-american I really do see it condescending for people (espceially the liturgists at predominitle African-American parishes ) To say that Gospel music is THE music for black people."
Josiah,
'your not the only on who finds it condescending. I refuse to enter any parish that claims its an "african american" parish for fear of being scandalized by what i find there as fas as music and liturgical abuses.
Based on what has been said thus far it seems that the prudent course is to wait a little while longer and see what the full course of music is for the mass. Right now it seems that we are just bellowing into the wind.
On another point I am concerned about the idea that has been said here that the Holy Father should use this as a moment of protest. We must recall that the Sacrifice of the Mass is not the place to make a protest. I would be more than happy with a vigorous letter writing campaign but to suggest actual protest is to suggest more harm than good.
I would also suggest that we trust the Holy Father. It has been said here that he and his liturgists might be ignorant to the situation here in the US. This is not the case. I am always amazed at how well informed the Holy See is concerning local issues in the whole world. While the mass may not be fitting to the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice that it is I am confident that if it is poor then the Holy Father will have some conversations about the problem with the right people.
Jeff Tucker wrote:
"The Archdiocese assures us as follows: 'The musical program for the Mass was chosen by an archdiocesan committee, with approval from the Vatican.'"
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First of all, I don't put it past these people to LIE about the approval. We know we have been lied to in the recent past. It would be totally contrary to the Pope's liturgical efforts as described above.
Second, if Rome did approve it, then Rome's sincerity in reforming things is perhaps to be doubted.
Was Msgr Guido Marini's advance visit "active" or "passive" participation in the overview of the Papal Masses? You know, all the lines of, "Okay, we are gonna do this. Make sure that." Or... was it, "Oh, okay. Oh, okay. I'll tell the Holy Father all about it, and the ugly chasuble you want him to wear."
Jonathan Bennett wrote:
"Simply put, I think these large-scale Masses should not be happening. His Holiness even said something similar himself recently.
These Masses have turned into a mere spectacle--a thought that should make anyone who cares for "active participation" of the faithful shudder. Reverence is lost.
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Johnathan, I hate to think there is ambivalence with Rome's talking the talk and walking the walk, but I believe this may be the case.
Rickman wrote:
"As a convert to the church, I am insulted that those in the Church seems to be, at least in the US, unwilling to stand up to this crap! When are those who love the Church and all her history, going to stop just taking this?!!
PROTEST is in order and I mean LOUD SHOUTING protest that shakes the walls of the Vatican!!!
It is time to override, overrule and overtake the bad shepherds in the country, that want only to be "relevant". BAH!!!!!
The Pope's MC better grow a backbone real fast or all the work the pope has done will mean nothing to those of us who believe Benedict when he says what was in the past is good for today too.
I for one will not go to D.C. if this mess of a mass is not corrected. I have saved a lot of money to try to attend one of the pope's masses while he is on American soil and I will not spend that hard earned money to see a mess!!
I am hurt by this silliness and the idea that somehow, Protestant gospel music is appropriate for Catholic masses. I came to Rome to escape the kind of mush coming from the Baptist auditoriums of thousands that I once attended. I wanted the truth... not "let's draw everyone in with a relevant program" kind of show we put on each and every Sunday."
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Welcome to the Faith, Rickman. God bless you on your faith journey Home. :)
At the same time, you have entered a Church where most it's members do nothing more than clutch the pearls and kaflench or get the vapors. Your average Catholic doesn't have the spine to do or say anything except sit around voting for Clinton or Obama.
Now, I wouldn't go so far as to question the validity of the Vatican/Rome's approval. Like one of the posts said, they are in Rome and have an Italian mindset who knows what "On Eagle's Wings" sounds like? Msgr. Marini had many other things to attend to while here in the states (where the pope was going to stay, security, etc.). A few pages of musical notation and a CD is not enough time to convey the awefulness of those songs to Msgr. Marini.
Instead of a "spectacle" it should be a teaching moment as to what a standard, sung, Sunday liturgy should be like. That's all we ask of Santita! Tom
What needs to happen, not just regarding this Mass but in general, is a two-fold approach. (a) demonstrate by example, as often as possible, and (b) raise holy heck over abuses and junk being used in place of much better music.
Regarding the latter, those people have had it all their own way for decades. They're not used to having their ways criticized, and many of them will respond to heat. They need a good and continued dose of aversion therapy to bring them closer to the mind of the Church.
Wow...what a catharsis! Still, fear not, dear friends, I am informed that Placido Domingo is to be on hand in DC to sing (what else?) Panis Angelicus, so all is now well with the world (he said, reeking of sarcasm).
I recently heard Panis Angelicus sung by the American Boy Choir. The beginning, a solo by a young treble, brought tears to my eyes. There was no self-indulgence, only purity and beauty. Had this been sung in a Mass instead of a concert, it would have been so much more meaningful.
When Placido sings in liturgy, as wonderful as he is, we must ask who and what is being illustrated, celebrated, honored or adored. No doubt when he is finished there will be wild applause.
I'm not complaining about great singers, only about self-indulgence and arrogance of the planners. When you bring in super stars, where is your attention? Will people be moved at how moved Pacido is, or will they simply be moved? Great Church art, be it music or other, points us toward God, not itself.
The whole thing has a variety show feel. That's how the news is being released and spun. That's how the organizers think of it.
Tragic in every way.
Concerning Placido...
Didn't Pius X have a little something to say about Operatic Performances at Mass?? Tra le... hmm... what's the word??
The hopes for a dignified celebration of the Liturgy looks pretty dismal as goes the event in Washington.
I really have very little hope that the American Church will rediscover it's Catholic identity anytime soon.
I just watched an Episcopal concedration on EWTN and it was the expected mediocre American Novus Ordo
Liturgical committee event. There was the long piano intro leading up to Amazing Grace during Communion, the token alter girl, a stirring rendition of "The Church is One Foundation " and a few Catholic pieces thrown in here and there. There was no Latin in the Mass at all as far as I was able to tell.
Was quite depressing .
As an african american, I do find it extremely insulting with "Sprituals" I've been Catholic my whole life, and I'll be honest, I don't know many sprituals, but I can work my way around the Roman Graduale very well.
My hope is that the Pope Chants everything impromptu, and the SMM Choir is brought in at the last miniute.
"Your average Catholic doesn't have the spine to do or say anything except sit around voting for Clinton or Obama."
Matt, but this has the blessing of the Archbishop of Washington too, my friend- implicitly ofcourse, through his silence. Has everyone forgotten in whose archdiocese Fr. Drinnan SJ's canonization, errr "funeral" took place? ...eulogy by Nancy Pelosi and all, after her reception of Holy Communion ofcourse. With due respect to his office, I do not feel that I am out of place in concluding that this man is no moderate. His predecessor was too delighted in his appointment to be able to consider Wuerl a moderate. Where are men like Cardinal O'Connor when you need them?
Well, as a very wise and faithful priest friend of mine is wont to say when faced with a liturgy such as this:
"It will have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and then it will be over."
And, I may add, hopefully will be one of the dying gasps of the 1980's.
I'm probably overly concerned but, it is fact that I'm very worried. There are many new scholas in this country, many new serious musicians involved for the first time in Catholic parishes, many young pastors have taken great risks to raise the standards. this is all new, within the last 5 years or so. I fear that this liturgy and all the hype is going to demoralize these people, even lead to their undoing just when they need support the most.
I never thought I'd see a music selection that made me long for rap.
"It will have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and then it will be over."
John M, excellent!
Prayer going up...
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World!)
Y'all realize that the ad homimen attacks, the despair and the vitriol allow the smarmiest Catholic blogger on the 'net to say things like:
The hand-wringing continues over the musical choices for the Pope2008 liturgy in Washington next month. The commentariat seems to have gotten over their Marty Haugen fervor, turning the vicious pen to the “dumbed down songs,” the “liar and a thief” of a music director, the “American bishops (and/or their liturgical apparatchiks) … flipping the bird to Catholic tradition, liturgical norms, and to the holy father (sic)” and the brilliant conclusion, “Cancelling would be an EXCELLENT move at this point.”
We have the philosophy of reform2 in a nutshell: stamp one’s feet and scream, “My way or no way!”
... on the six candlestick front:
After all our hard work in our parishes (”this is what the Holy Father wants us to do” etc.), and I’m going to have to fight off whiny parishioners for weeks (months, years?) complaining, “…but they approved that music for the POPE…”
Live by papal example, die by papal example …
But it does make me wonder about Pope Benedict’s reaction were he to read a transcript of one of these threads. Worship in the traditional format has the surplices and cassocks all straightened, but it doesn’t seem to elevate Catholics in the higher virtues. You know: those encyclical topics. Something like hope. Or love.
It's embarrassing to many of us who agree with you when a hypocrite like that is right.
You might want to rethink your tactics and your rehtoric.
Will the Archbishop of Washington DC become a Cardinal?
There is a sense in which no one here needs to say anything. The Pope himself has written all that needs to be said. But apparently he is not being read.
It's never a good idea for Catholics to silence themselves or each other when bishops ignore the laws of the church. The last four decades have taught us that in spades. If people are willing to cherry-pick comments from an open discussion in order to confirm their views, I doubt very much that they are really open to persuasion.
anon,
hope and love?
are you kidding?
faithful catholics expressing their desire for the church to be restored to its glory is hope and love.
wanting our fellow catholics to know that they are indeed catholic and not pentecostals is hope and love.
spitting into the face of the holy father and trashing the Mass, as the d.c. organizers are doing has little to do with hope and love, and nothing at all to do with true catholicism.
Voice In The Wilderness wrote:
"Anon,
hope and love?
Are you kidding?
Faithful Catholics expressing their desire for the church to be restored to its glory is hope and love.
Wanting our fellow catholics to know that they are indeed catholic and not Pentacostals is hope and love.
Spitting into the face of the holy father and trashing the Mass, as the d.c. organizers are doing has little to do with hope and love, and nothing at all to do with true Catholicism."
)(
Very well said.
We must daily and fervently pray for the health and well being of our Holy Father. We must pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and strength. We must make it known that we are not alone in our desire to restore the beauty of our Catholic faith. Reverently and humbly, we must stay firm in our committment and obedience to the Holy Father--all for the greater Glory of God!
i've been having an ongoing discussion with my pastor about my parish's practice standing after communion - he's for it, i'm against it.
for weeks he has been telling me that it is the expressed desire of the american bishops that catholics must stand after receiving communion and remain doing so until the priest sits down.
this is patently ridiculous
i have repeated shown him evidence that the holy father has stated otherwise, and monsignor must have finally seen the light this weekend.
in our church bulletin (and perhaps in yours as well) there is an article describing proper posture at Mass, and it clearly states that the congregation is to kneel or sit after having received communion.
strangely enough, it is dated back to 2003, which means that monsignor has been advocating for a practice that the bishops explicitly did not approve of.
while i was heartened to see that monsignor included the proper posture of the Mass in the bulletin, i was very disappointed that he did nothing to correct the situation this morning.
i'm of a mind to take to the altar prior to Mass next sunday - it's crowded with people anyway, one more on the altar won't make a difference ;) - and remind the congregation that the proper posture of the people after communion is kneeling, not standing about like a thicket of trees.
surely monsignor won't mind.
What a shame! The "we are at the centre of the universe" US hierarchy sticking up two fingers to Rome yet again in another attempt to show the WASP establsihment they're just another run of the mill mainline denomination.
On the subject of "Eurocentricity" I always find it ridiculous. Catholicism is not the indigenous European tradition: it came to us from outside. Our indigenous tradition involves wicker men, druids, mistletoe and weird sacrifices in lonely groves. Here's a satire to be written: Gregory the Great does not become Pope but is replaced by a trendy "progresive" who calls for "inculturation" with the barbarians. Within a decade Mass is celebrated with horns of mead in longships etc etc!
The rub of it all:
"The musical program for the Mass was chosen by an archdiocesan committee..."
Is there a more glaring example of a view of liturgy that is entirely contrary to what Benedict has wrote, preached, and practiced? First, the apparent need for a "program," which incorrectly suggests that the Mass lacks a musical dimension all its own. Second, the notion that a Mass is a malleable form subject to fabrication by some sort of human "committee," rather than the only 'committee' that has the legitimate authority to dictate such form (that being the Trinity).
To those who would criticize the strong reaction found in this blog (and elsewhere) to the musical selection, note that the underlying criticism runs far deeper than a determination that some of the music is banal, rather that the mere fabrication of the Mass as such has no place within Catholicism, and moreover, that Benedict has spoken rather affirmatively on this point.
We are one Church in the present, just as we are one Church from the past. Without our living tradition--the vertical time so commonly ignored in liturgy today--nothing short of the Cross itself is incomplete.
Well, I was clearly too optimistic.
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