Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
This is awesome.
I hope there are more and more expressions of this type of ceremonies and TLM Masses across Europe.
Great photos. Two questions:
1st, in the third picture from the top, is the cleric in front wearing two maniples, one on his right hand?
Secondly, is the custom for nuns to enter the sanctuary during their profession? Also, do a couple at their wedding enter the sanctuary? I'm trying to figure out when it is permitted or even mandated for someone other than a sacred minister to enter.
Thanks.
What you are seeing there is inside the book.
I notice two rows of six candles on the altar at this Mass, or rather, on the shelves above the altar. I understand it is the norm to use six candles for Solemn Mass in the EF, and seven if the Ordinary is celebrating, just like the OF. Is there any particular rule regarding this and are the others just taken to be decorative? Also, I am wondering about the gold tree like items between the top row of candlesticks?
Is it a fancy bookmark, or is it a maniple held inside the book. Thanks.
Are those Golden Roses?
Okay, on closer inspection, no, they are not. But like Tom I'd like to find out what they are.
What Shawn is saying is that it is the bishop's maniple inside the Gospel Book; he will put it on during the prayers at the foot of the altar.
Trimeloni ("Compendio di Liturgia pratica", Torino, Marietti, 1963, reprint 2007) says that a couple can attend all the wedding ceremony in the sanctuary.
It is not a custom for nuns to enter the sanctuary during their profession. According to the Franciascan Ritual, they must do this within the enclosure, that is within that part of the monastic church closed by a grating.
But I think that, when it is not possibile - as in the present case - nuns can attend the ceremony in the sanctuary.
I
Tom / Tobias;
it's very common in Europe / UK for there to be more than just the six candles on great occasions. I think I'm right in saying that the rubric is got round by the argument that they are for illumination, and not for 'cultural purposes' !
The 'tree like items' are vases of ornamental gilt flowers/foliage (either carved of wood, or made of metal): again, very common in Europe in various different formats. They often double as candle holders for Benediction.
It's all purely decorative, and of no particular significance, but it does add a certain something to the very greatest of festivities.
love the metal flowers there so difficult to find
Putting flowers on the altar isn't done too much in Italy, unless they are made of gold. Sobriety and all.
Lj
you might try Malta; foil ones are not too difficult to get hold of there, although not all that cheap.
I was struck by those golden flowers as well.
I noticed in some recent photos you've had on the site similar ornamentation, such as golden busts of popes / bishops(?) around the altar like those golden flowers.
Do such ornaments have an official name?
Are there any sellers / designers of them in America?
i was in a junk shop yesterday and there was a puginesque holy water bucket , a pair of large altar candles, a silver sanctuary lamp , a crown for a statue, a painting of st gerard, a painting of the assumption and a pair of hearse candlesticks with dummy candles so its surprising what can be found
Give me a patron to pay for it and jeweler/goldsmith to carry it out and I might design some!
LJ,
You should let pwople here know where they are as some may wish to investigate for there parish.
Gilt flowers are indeed quite common in Rome, etc. The London Oratory has them as does Ss. Trinita.
In the Vatican Museums you can also see such a thing: see here
Okay, so why was this Mass celebrated in the EF? Donīt take me wrong. I would love to see more and more Masses across the world celebrated in the EF with no special reason at all. I'm just curious about this occasion.
"love the metal flowers there so difficult to find"
I've seen ones made of brass at Gracious Home in Manhattan, but can't find them in their catalogue.
" What Shawn is saying is that it is the bishop's maniple inside the Gospel Book; he will put it on during the prayers at the foot of the altar."
Thanks, Wyccamical Catholic. Shawn, all of these rituals are unknown to me -- I didn't know that the bishop's maniple was held inside the book, for instance. I guessed that without writing it -- it makes more sense than assuming that a cleric would wear two maniples, but it didn't explain to me what a maniple or maniple-like bookmark was doing in the book.
Women in the sanctuary? Seems a novelty, not very traditional. It may of been allowed in the 60s, one of the pictures, the sister seems too close to the altar. But, I am sure it was "never" allowed long before Bugnini & Co.
That reminds me: when will the EDC make a decision on females servers and lectors in the 1962 Form?
TridentineKnight, I'm glad you responded to that point. I just want to know if women ever were permitted in the sanctuary pre-Vatican II. Is this an innovation, or not?
Yes Tobias, it is Pope Benedict XIV who forbade female servers, or even a nun to enter the sanctuary during the Divine Mysteries to act "like" a server.
Bugnini & Co. started changing things in 50s and in 60s full blown changes came out almost in all places.
So, I say it is a violation of the Sacred. Also, don't forget the "Sensus Sacrae" which tell you profanations when you sense them.
The presence of women in the sanctuary, not to serve or read, but to make their profession (or something similar), is a perfect traditional use.
It is mentioned, for example, in Rituale Romano-seraphicum of 1955 (tit. VII, cap. II, sect. II, I, 3): "Celebrans [...] in scabello parum ad latus Evangelii collocato sedens, Candidatas IN MEDIO PRESBYTERII genuflexas primum interrogat".
And in the rite described in Pontificale Romanum (De benedictione et consecratione virginum), it is clear that nuns are within the sanctuary (e. gr. we read: "Deinde [virgines] AD MEDIUM CHORI procedunt et ibi genua flectent").
I don't know any official document, before the 1970s, that allows the presence of women as servers or readers.
Daniele, thank you for providing the documentation, which is what I wanted. Does the practice predate 1955. I'm not launching an assault, I am just asking the question in ignorance.
The previous edition of Franciscan Ritual (1931), ad locum, has the same words as the third edition (1955).
The first part of Pontificale Romanum, in which we find the chapter "De benedictione et consecratione virginum", was not modificated in first 1960s (the 1962 reform of the Pontificale concerned only the second part), and so it is identical to the "editio princeps" of 1595.
I think that, if we read other rituals of non-monastic female orders, we will find, more or less, the same indications.
I am sorry if my english is not very clear, but I am Italian.
My MSN id is niceno85@hotmail.it
Yes, it predates 1955. From the Roman Pontifical of 1849: "Virgines, magis appropinquantes ascendunt in Presbyterium; ubi omnes coram Pontifice genuflectunt". Not only the virgins themselves, but also their female sponsors go into the sanctuary: "Quo per singulas dicto, surgunt omnes, et a matronis praedictis seriatim ordinantur, stantes ibidem in modum coronae coram Pontifice, congruo tamen spatio distantes ab eo."
According to the same book, the candidates of both sexes with their sponsors enter the sanctuary to receive confirmation from the bishop.
Ok that's a good point, that's a valid point. You convinced me.
But I did notice a nun too close to the altar, it seemed, she had a camera, maybe? She was to side of the front of the altar, where a server stands. I just found it a little abnormal?
http://img530.imageshack.us/img5...30/91/
11pk8.jpg
I don't have a problem with females entering sanctuary if that is what the Roman Pontifical requiring.
It is funny, all the confirmations in the Novus Ordo, I have see, usually the anointing occurred at the edge of the sanctuary.
I was present and I am sure that she didn't have any camera. In the photo she seems to be close to the altar, but in fact her place was near the sanctuary wall.
Thanks, Daniele. I would like to see an article or post on those specific instances in which women/lay people generally are permitted into the sanctuary. Does a couple enter the sanctuary during a Nuptial Mass?
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