Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
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I'm feeling cheerful.
Pes |
01.19.08 | #
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This could be achieved in time but the teaching would have to be thorough. Remember, too, that it takes time for the penny to drop. Another factor is that most people are content with what they are acustomed to. That is how 'conservatism' comes into being.
Anthony Symondson SJ |
01.19.08 | #
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Was there any attempt to explain to the faithful why the Holy Father was celebrating ad orientem? I've often heard that lots of cautious education of the laity must be done prior to celebrating 'ad orientem' but is it really THAT necessary? I wonder if the Holy Father bothered to explain this move to the people attending.
Nicolas |
01.19.08 | #
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Here is video of the Pope's Mass in his private chapel. Interesting orientation here, too.
Pes |
01.19.08 | #
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You said that this Mass is "said" rather than "sung". How much singing is there. It is interesting because it's a Sunday Mass. I'm interested to know because in my country, sung Mass was not at all the norm in parishes before Vatican II, so we're working from the basis of Low Mass, perhaps with hymns, towards sung or solemn Masses. And it's very slow work.
What does the Pope's "said Mass" on the Baptism of the Lord involve?
from Europe |
01.19.08 | #
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Many churches in England have an original high altar with a freestanding altar only feet in front. It is rare in historic buildings here that altars have been removed or moved dramatically - usually we have a wooden arrangement in front.
I think, quite often priests get caught up in thinking that the mass must be celebrated facing west (or indeed that it must be celebrated facing east) when what we must really focus on is a renewal of understanding of the sacrificial nature of the mass and the rest will follow.
Gregory of Langres |
Homepage |
01.19.08 | #
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It is gratifying to see that the more accurate interpretation of ad orientem - the celebrant and people facing in the same direction - is receiving more press lately, to oppose the still widespread and ideology-fueled misconception that the priest has "turned his back on the people".
It seems that, after a couple of years of careful circumspection, the Benedictine reform is underway. He is setting examples and making decisions that will be very difficult for a successor to undo. Long live Benedict XVI!
john m |
01.19.08 | #
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Gregory,
"...what we must really focus on is a renewal of understanding of the sacrificial nature of the mass and the rest will follow."
That is precisely what facing a common, sacred direction can and does emphasize, which is one of the reasons it is such an important practice to revive.
Shawn |
01.19.08 | #
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I'm not sure how ad orientam in itself emphasizes the sacrificial nature of the mass. The focus on the cross, yes but the direction, no.
What I mean is that the teaching must come first - the action in itself does not speak strongly enough, it needs catechism.
Gregory of Langres |
Homepage |
01.19.08 | #
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A more detailed question: For a parish that uses an altar cross as the beginning of reorientation that is not double sided, which way should the crucified image of Christ be facing? for the priest to see or the people to see?
Kimberly |
Homepage |
01.19.08 | #
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In the previous dispensation, the cross was always to face the priest at the altar. He was obliged to look on the figure on the cross at various points during the Mass. Thus, at St Peter's, the cross face the Pope and not the people (seeing as the Pope and the people were on opposite sides of the altar).
However, that was one rubric. Other rules insisted that the corpus on the cross be of such a size as to be seen by those assisting, which correctly assumed that most people were usually on the same side of the cross/altar as the priest celebrant himself.
As far as the current rules go, there does not seem to be any obligation in any particular sense. The priest is no longer obliged to look upon the figure on the cross during the Mass. However, GIRM 308 (the most recent edition) emphasises that the people be able to to clearly see the altar cross:
"There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation...."
It is interesting to note that in the present dispensation, the PROCESSIONAL cross always faces the direction in which a procession is headed. In the old Roman rite, the same practice was observed except for an archbishop, in which case the cross faced the archbishop.
In the old Dominican rite, the PROCESSIONAL cross always face THE PEOPLE, which made things more interesting! As the procession approached the church/assembly, the cross face forward (a procession entering the church from the main door behind the people, for example). However, once the cross entered the body of the faithful, the subdeacon turned it round so the people, facing forward towards the altar, would see the figure of Christ crucified being carried forward. After the liturgical celebration, the subdeacon would have carried the cross so that it face forward (as in the Roman rite without archbishop) down the church, towards the front door, again allowing the people, facing the altar, to see Christ crucified.
The old Dominican practice is, at least, strong on having the people seeing the figure of Christ crucified on the processional cross.
And we shouldn't forget the pious practice of saluting the wall cross (or other image of the crucifixion) in the sacristy before and after Mass, or even the processional cross in fact.
from Europe |
01.19.08 | #
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I presumed that it was the subdeacon who carried the cross in the old Dominican Rite. In fact, I'm not sure if that was/is the case. Anyone sure about that?
from Europe |
01.19.08 | #
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The mass is 4 things: [1]the divine sacrifice of calvary; [2]a holy meal; [3]a gathering of christians for friendship and to wish each other well; [4]a choreographed play apt for a species or 'team' being that man is. There is a tendency in this site to say that mass is only 1 or 2 of these things.
Aidan Waldron |
05.02.09 | #
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So the mass should have 2 orientations of the priest. He should face ad orientem for a short time for transubstantiation and elevation. The rest of the time he should face the people.
This is because mas is the divine sacrifice of calvary; [2]a holy meal; [3]a gathering of christians for friendship and to wish each other well; [4]a choreographed play
Aidan Waldron |
05.02.09 | #
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This dual orientation would need another liturgical development: 3 altars.
[1]Altar of Divine Sacrifice for the consecration and elevation ad orientem
[2]Altar of Eucharist facing the people
[3]Altar of offering - this would be at ground level one third of the way down the church where 2 representatives of the people would place the bread and wine. They would then, just before the consecration module, bring them to the Altar of Eucharist. The priest would then bring them from the Altar of Eucharist to the Altar of Sacrifice and perform and actualise the consecration.
Aidan Waldron |
05.02.09 | #
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