Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
Have anyone noticed that during Holy Communion, few (if any) people recieved Holy Communion from Benedict XVI in the hand. It was on the tongue only. One or two who attempted in the hand method had the paten shoved under their chins..as if to say "This is how we do it".
Nicely done shorter, closer cut Gothic chasubles today. Not just on the Holy Father, but on all of the clerics at Mass today.
It was simple , dignified snd beautiful. I hope Archbishop Wuerl watched.
I know what the NLM's party line is on this issue, but I really think it's becoming harder every day to argue that Benedict doesn't favor an unobstructed view of the celebrant. I'm not saying Benedict wouldn't prefer something else, that he no longer thinks ad orientem is the ideal, but that this is clearly what he's trying to accomplish with his new altar arrangement, probably to be pastoral. It would have been no trouble at all to place the candles all the way across the altar in the traditional manner. Why else would the MC choose to push them so far off to the side? For the cameras? The only difference between this and what Piero used to do is the centered crucifix and seventh candle.
John,
The Holy Father's goal is ad orientem. Yes we are still facing the priest only because this is not about the faithful getting used to ad orientem - it is all about the priests - just as Summorum Pontificium is all about the priests. In other words, the Holy Father knows the biggest obstical to the return of ad orientem worship is not the laity but the priests. How many parishes are putting 6 candles and a crucifix on the altar? I would think not many. Why? Because the pastors dont want to. We have a long way to go.
What is the signigicance of the Holy Father's red shoes? Is this part of the papal resurgence of traditional habadashery?
bjr
John,
there is no such thing as an NLM party line.
While I tend to agree that the current arrangement is, unfortunately, varying from the traditional equally distanced arrangement which would be the ideal, I still think the central and substantial Cross is the most important part of the "Benedictine" arrangement in so far as it is the main device of orientation. Also, we still have six candles in traditional candlesticks of substantial height, aligned with the front edge of the altar, all of these being traditional elements which had by no means been present in all Masses under the previous MC, let alone combined. Together with the 7th candle, it is, I think, unfair to say that this is not significant progress.
Whereas I, as I said, would indeed hope that at a future point in time the arrangement would return to the equally distanced traditional form we had already seen around Christmas, in the post I wanted to focus on the many very positive elements in this papal Mass. This, indeed, is something we try to do at the NLM, and which I think can only help furthering the reform of the reform.
" What is the signigicance of the Holy Father's red shoes? Is this part of the papal resurgence of traditional habadashery?
bjr
I pasted this from BJR-
The red shoes are traditional Papal footwear....but Papal slippers embroidered with gold crosses(not shoes but slippers) would really be a return to tradition.
Speaking of a return of Catholic tradition, a friend of mine who is just a nominal Catholic (but knows I like traditional Catholicism) just came back from Germany yesterday.
She said she saw "old habited" young nuns at the airport in Germany, and tonsured friars on the street in Munich.
So maybe there's more of a return of traditional Catholicism than we know.
it seems like a whole new rite.
Kemjiro,
I was once at the Met and saw a whole gaggle of wimpled Dominican nuns wearing starched head bands. I couldn't believe my eyes, and as a naive nineteen year old, I took it as evidence that the Church was really changing. I was so excited that I approached one of them to ask where they were from. They turned out to be Sedevacantists.
The only mainstream orders I know of that still wear old habits are the cloistered Carmelites, some of the cloistered Benedictines and, of course, Mother Angelica's order. All the Dominican's I've seen wear turtleneck collars.
Michael,
Then you know only a portion of the Dominican nuns. It doesn't take much looking around to find faithful Dominican nuns. (And sisters -- nuns and sisters are different branches of the Dominican Family.)
Aric
I am curious what is the age of Archbishop Angelo Bagnasco?
Aric,
My comment was about the habits they wear, not about their faith or loyalty. There are some excellent houses (all that ones I know of) that wear modified habits without wimples. If you know of any mainstream (not traditionalist)Dominicans that wear traditional habits, I'd like to know about them.
Michael,
There is a small group of Dominican nuns that teach at St. Pius V parish in Providence Rhode island who wear the Dominican habit.
-Rob
Funny - they had to put a little step in front of the throne so the Holy Father's legs wouldn't be dangling!
I was able to listen to most of the homily and it was spectacular. The Mass looked beautiful - as much of it as I saw. It was too bad that the platform was not constructed with a gutter so as to avoid the water staining on the interior ceiling.
To the person who asked about Cardinal Bagnasco's age, he is 65 1/3, to be precise. See here:
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.or.../
bbagnasco.html
Yes, Rob. Those are the modern habits I'm refferring to. Compare these two photos:
http://www.cmswr.org/
member_comm...20Nashville.jpg
http://nunsopsummit.org/foundresses.JPG
You'll notice a difference in the collar (a wimple that covers the breast, neck, cheeks and forehead in the second photo) and the way the veil lays over the shoulders or doesn't. Mother Angelica's order once wore a habit much like the one in the first photo and then replaced it with the one her nuns wear today after the Denver World Youth Day.
Enough with the big outdoor Masses! Is it really necessary that the pope celebrate Mass outside of a consecrated church? I think this happens ONLY because we live in a culture of celebrity, and not just in America. Americans feel it is their "right" to be able to be at a papal Mass among great hordes of worshippers. Anything less and they feel slighted.
Why is the seventh candle much, much shorter than the others? In this case, it would not make a diff if it were not used at all.
Transitional Deacon: that step has always been like that. You can also see that with the sedia gestatoria. This is so that when the Pope stands he will appear taller, because the Pope's feet used to be kissed (during Mass), so they had to be placed a little higher, etc.
Both the Altar, and the Throne, are the best ones I've seen so far in papal Masses outside Rome.
Congratulations to the organizers!
Those used in Brazil and in the US for outdoor Masses were simply horrid. Those used today are great!
Thrones, in most of the western world, usually used to have footstools or little steps associated with them. If you were wearing robes, you definitely wanted a high seat and a footstool to help keep your hems clean. It also helped show off the red shoes/buskins/boots/slippers.
Prof. Basto,
The altar and throne used in the canonization of St Frei Galvăo (may 11th, 2007) were not that bad...
http://www2007.visitadopapa.org....11/
DSCF1136.JPG
http://www2007.visitadopapa.org....11/
DSC_0790.jpg
But the candle behind the altar cross is too short.
Michael,
Ah, I misunderstood your "turtleneck collars" to be a reference to turtlenecks, simpliciter. Understanding your point now, I don't have enough knowledge in the history of religious dress to help you out. But I assume you would use as a paradigm not a 1950's photograph, but (for the nuns) what the community at Prouille wore in the first decades of the 13th century. (I don't know what era to look for as the tradition for Dominican sisters.)
Michael,
I almost stopped and asked you if you meant there was an older form of the Dominican habit. Go figure. I get you now.
-Rob
SMJ,
Agreed, but only with regard to the canonization Mass Throne.
As for the altar used on that occasion, I still think it is strange, non traditional, due to the openings in the front. It looked more like a rail or Court bar than an Altar.
As for the Aparecida Conference Opening Mass, there was simply a total return to the futuristic Throne / strange Altar setting typical of Pope John Paul II's visits. And the thrones/altars used for outdoors Masses in America were equally disappointing.
Now, today we saw something completely different, much more dignified.
Daily the Holy Father takes my breath away with his tenderness and appreciation for tradition, dignity, beauty, taste, holiness and thoughtfulness. For awhile, I thought he did not have much of an appreciation for our Blessed Mother, but now I see that that is not true or correct. He is a complete man of God and the ultimate example of a good priest. May almighty God protect him and keep him in good health for many years to come, as we need him desperately!
The seventh candle is shorter than the others because the crucifix is shorter, and a shorter seventh candle will not block the crucifix. I think the crucifix must have originally been placed on the top of a tabernacle so it and the candel set can match in height.
At communion the "canticum trium puerorum" was sung with the antiphon that, in the Graduale Simplex, is designated for the offertory of the Mass of the Trinity.
A superb Gothic Mitre as well
Unfortunately neither of the candles appear lit in these pictures. Aside of the debate about how many and what arrangement the altar candles take, I can't see that there's any symbolic value in using unlit candles during outdoor masses. Either some contraption needs to be used to cover the flames or else lantern style candle-holders needed to be used.
I like the mitre it really is classic medieval gothic..
I think the vestments the Pope wore at the mass were an excellent combination of the traditional and the modern. This was as good a modern chasuble as I've seen. Personally, I’d love the return of heavily embroidered fiddle back chasubles, but I suspect that is a traditionalist step too far for many of today’s priests. However if the priests of the world can see well made, well designed chasubles in the gothic style, like this, then perhaps they will dispose of their “duvet cover” or “rainbow" or "clown" chasubles and start wearing elegant, well made garments like this.
I’d also like to comment on how well the Gothic Chasuble went the with the “Byzantine-Benedictine” Pallium. I agree entirely with the comments on an other recent Papal mass that the “Byzantine-Benedictine” Pallium looks very clumsy when worn over a Borromean early Baroque chasuble but I think it sits very with a properly cut gothic chasuble.
Lastly, It was nice to see the return of the normal summer silk scarlet papal Mozetta. The white damask version is, as I’ve said before, perhaps the most beautiful item in the Pope’s non liturgical wardrobe. I think it is so beautiful he has wisely decided to extend the usage from the Easter Octave to the whole of the Easter Season, but equally, precisely because it is so beautiful, I believe it is entirely appropriate that it be reserved to the Easter Season
My issue is that when Vatican II was called and the liturgy was reformed, altars were ripped out from one week to the next and the new mass was shoved down our throats
Lets be real, I love B16, but I have seen the photos of him at the council in a regular suit and he was a periti if I recall in the mold of Kung and Rahner
If he really wanted to change the mass and felt that the way priests worship and consecrate etc-as the Vicar of Christ I would think he could change it overnight as Paul VI and some priests did to us. Where is communion in the hand in a document anyway? Why were my children taught in catechism in the 1980s that is the way to receive?
Vivian,
I think you will find that things have changed in Ratizinger's mind since his suit wearing days. Remember, Germany has been 'traditionally' progressive even at Vatican I.
For a German Pope to be operating the way he is is a sure sign of the Holy Spirit- and patience one of his gifts.
Vivian,
It should also be a sign that damage was done overnight and the Holy Spirit is slowly working to repair the Church. As my confessor reminds me, the Holy Spirit never forces us to do anything. It moves slowly and prepares us for what is to comes.
Ana
Not enoughly papal vestments. Not enoughly papal altar.
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