Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
The number of Oratories in your list brought to mind the joke told by servers at the London Oratory.
How many Oratorians does it take to change a lightbulb?
Priest, deacon and cleric (dressed as subdeacon)with assistant priest in cope and accdolytes and thurifer, with choir and other minsters, assemble at the foot of a step ladder, the priest sotto voce says:
Pr. Fratres renoveremus
Mins. Sancte Pater, cur renoveremus?
Having reverenced the step ladder all depart,with lighted candles, singing Lux Aeternum accompanied by musicians on original insrtruments.
Since the latter is free standing, how many times does the priest go around the ladder during the incensation? 2, to signify the union of the father and the son or 3 to reverence the Holy Trinity? Also, does the number of rungs of the ladder be divided by 3? I once saw this rite where the ladder with SEVEN rungs!!!(no, really!!!)
I was truly upset I wrote a haughty and witheringly dismissive letter to the hardware company!
I see a lot of St. Phillip's Oratories on here. They are certainly an important part of the reform of the reform during the last 40 years.
Our Lady of Lourdes Parish, in Overbrook, Philadelphia, PA... ought to be added to your list... like St. John Cantius, the parish has the Extraordinary and the Ordinary Form (Latin and vernacular, etc...) chant, polyphony, ad orientem....
Here's a video from July from St. Mary's Parish in Greenville, SC. This is a video of Fr. Michael Cassabon's first Mass. http://stmarysgvl.org/sacraments...rst-solemn-
mass
Indeed, the list is by no means comprehensive. They are one's I am particularly interested in, but I know there are others. By no means is that list meant to be exhaustive or limiting.
BUT... I would particularly like to get such reports from those places.
I went for the first time to a ROTR Ad Orientem Novus Ordo Mass at Old St Mary's in Cincinnati a few weeks ago and it was quite literally a breath of desperately needed fresh air. The music was superb (Palestrina/Chant). It was very reverent. I kept asking myself: why is this sort of thing so rare? Why do I have to drive 90 miles to assist at such a liturgy?
It had been many many years since I had the privilege to assist at such a liturgy the last time was at St Agnes when I lived in Minnesota. I often get nostalgic for St Agnes in St Paul whenever I'm forced to attend a Novus Ordo somewhere out of town. I assist these days almost exclusively at the Traditional Mass these days. Though if I had the opportunity to do so, I would go to a St Agnes style Mass as often as possible.
One of the biggest issues I think that faces the ROTR movement is that so many (priests & Bishops included) are under the impression that Vatican II did away with Ad Orientem, Latin, Chant etc etc etc. This is no secret especially for readers of this blog. It has become the norm to think that the Versus Populum guitar strumming garden variety liturgies that are at most any parish are what Vatican II called for in regard to liturgical reform. There is something very wrong with a situation where priests have a fear or are reluctant of celebrating Holy Mass this way (Ad Orientem, Latin, Chant, incense etc) out of fear of being seen as not in line with Post Conciliar liturgical thinking. We need to ask ourselves why after 40 years are there are basically the same "archipelago of parishes" that offer Mass in a spirit of continuity with tradition? ie Old St. Mary, St Agnes, St John Cantius etc? Why aren't there more such oases of authentic liturgy? Why is it still the exception to be able to receive Holy Communion at the altar railing on the tongue? Why is there a fear at all of "rocking the boat"? Why should Catholics have to go "shop" for a decent liturgy? The Holy Father is quite clear I think about his opinion regarding the post conciliar liturgy and what he sees need to be addressed so why aren't the bishops taking more lead? I know some are but again they are the exception.
Why when I go to the most orthodox and conservative parish in my city for a regular noonday Novus Ordo Mass does the celebrant take a seat then it's time to distribute Holy Communion for the 40 or so in attendance whilst the "Extraordinary" ministers descend on the sanctuary to distribute? I mean I know this goes on alot and yet is tolerated or overlooked.
I guess I'm missing something here. It's just very disheartening. I would go daily to a Novus Ordo Missae as its done at one of the Archipelago parishes but alas here that is only a dream and we need to ask ourselves why this is the case.
Marshall |
One important reason, I suspect, is that pastors typically have only six-year terms, so the amount of sustained opposition and grief one will likely receive from both the pews and the chancery to make the changes only to have them completely undone a couple of years later are strong incentives for pastors who might be otherwise sympathetic to place their pastoral priorities elsewhere. The only way that the reform of the reform can take hold (in significant parishes) is if the pastors have some assurance that - barring incompetence or some other important problem) - that their tenure will not be a short one.
Shawn, I am headed up to Our Saviour on the 21st, for the High Mass. If my info is correct the choir offers Gregorian Chant at the High Mass on the third Sunday of the month. I will e-mail you to find out what specifics you would like in a report.
Shawn,
You should probably also list the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament in Alabama, since most of their masses are ad orientem, in Latin, ordinary form. Hopefully EWTN will soon start broadcasting these.
Lukacs, I am a server at Our Saviour's and we do a solemn Novus Ordo with chant every Sunday. I'd love to send some pics in myself--but kind of hard to bring a camera into the sanctuary! (I'd be curious to get an outsider's opinion of our masses, though.)
For twenty five years, when I hear about NO with Latin, chant, ad orientem, it's almost always the same old group: the various Oratories, St. Agnes and a handful of others-- demonstrably less growth than that of the TLM communities. Why?
Holy Name, Manchester, England too should be included: www.holyname.co.uk
Matthew -
I'd love to chat with you about Mass at Our Saviour. Can we do so "offline?"
The parishes Shawn listed possess several or all of these characteristics:
1. NO Latin Mass
2. Ad orientem for at least some Masses
3. Communion at the altar rail
4. Strong traditional music program
5. Significant parish life and/or additional liturgical services such as Vespers or Benediction during the week.
You can find a great number of parishes offering 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the directory at www.latinliturgy.com. However, the number of parishes offering 5 to any significant degree are slim, largely because so many of these parishes are inner-city, historic churches with small memberships.
These parishes look nice:
1) St. John the Beloved Catholic Parish:
http://www.stjohncatholicmclean....ean.org/church/
2) St. Agnes in New York
3) Old St. Mary's Church, Cincinnati, Ohio:
http://www.oldstmarys.org/
4)St. Peter's, Merchantville, NJ (note: will add TLM in December)
http://www.stpeterrcc.com/
5)The Catholic Church of the Holy Name of Jesus, Manchester, England (TLM and Solemn Sung Novus Ordo every Sunday)
http://www.holyname.co.uk/
Let's not forget St. Margaret Mary in Oakland, with daily TLM and NOM (English) and an every-Sunday Latin NOM too. PLUS daily Lauds and regular Vespers and Compline! That little church has an embarrasment of riches. See
http://www.stmargmaryoak.org/
Old St. Mary's in Cincinnati is great. I try to go there as often as I can. Christmas Midnight mass there was absolutely breathtaking.
I've heard good things about Corpus Christi in NYC, too, but never been there.
A reliable, comprehensive list of this sort will literally be an answer to my prayers.
At one point I was doing a great deal of traveling, and I would have given my right arm to have known where to find these places.
Currently I have, as I think I have stated before on this blog, (when wheedling and whining for just such a list,) a number of family and friends in various locales throughout the country, who have fallen away, but who are leaning back.
A good parish with a dependably well conducted liturgy might be all that's needed to topple them in the right direction.
(Save the Liturgy, Save a Soul)
For twenty five years, when I hear about NO with Latin, chant, ad orientem, it's almost always the same old group: the various Oratories, St. Agnes and a handful of others-- demonstrably less growth than that of the TLM communities. Why?
It might partly be that the listed parishes are doing what we of the marketing affliction call "best of breed" work in regards to liturgy. Frankly, my parish will _never_ have the resources of the Brompton Oratory, no matter how well we move it in the right direction.
Many EF groups, on the other hand, are not pulling off something on the scale of what the Oratories do. They're doing low masses or more normal level Missa Cantata or Missa Solemnis. Which if fine, because frankly it's probably not reasonable to expect many parishes to hit the level of a Brompton Oratory or St. John Cantius.
To toss out my own (slighly less lofty) local example: St. Mary Cathedral here in Austin, Texas recently did a very good remodel which has restored it to all (or perhaps more than) it's original splendor, after a period when 70s red carpet was in the santuary and the walls were whitewashed.
The cathedral site is here.
A (rather odd angle) shot of before the restoration is here.
There is a decent organ and good organist down there, and one hears a certain amount of chant and polyphany -- I've never heard a guitar in there, though I'm not there all the time so it's possible it happens at times.
They do not, however, offer the OF in Latin (excepting some of the mass parts when sung). And they do not have a communion rail or celebrate ad orientem.
However, liturgies there have improved a _great deal_ in the last 3-5 years, and six months or so ago the EF group in the diocese was invited to move to the Cathedral, where I can attest that their attendence is definately growing and they are finally getting some decent music going.
John,
You ask a very good question. The normative celebration of the ordinary form -- by "normative" I mean "on paper" (e.g., rubrics presupposing ad orientem), and not as it is usually experienced -- is a rarity; most Catholics now have easier access to the extraordinary form than the "normative" ordinary form. For some reason -- actually, for several reasons -- the ordinary form is equated with all-vernacular, "facing the people," etc.
There are pastors in my area who, since the m.p. went into effect, have celebrated, or who plan to celebrate, the extraordinary form; yet the Novus Ordo in Latin was never offered, nor do they plan to offer it. For that matter, it doesn't enter their heads to celebrate a vernacular Mass ad orientem. Go figure.
There are pastors in my area who, since the m.p. went into effect, have celebrated, or who plan to celebrate, the extraordinary form; yet the Novus Ordo in Latin was never offered, nor do they plan to offer it. For that matter, it doesn't enter their heads to celebrate a vernacular Mass ad orientem. Go figure.
Fr. Thomas Kocik | 10.09.07 |
This has always baffled me. ad orientem seems such a no-brainer and for me is the key to the RotR. Is there any parish in the USA that regularly offers a vernacular Mass ad orientem?
The Vienna Parish entrusted to (you guess... right: ) the Oratorians, St. Rochus, was recently restored, and while they were at it, they threw out the "people's altar" and returned to celebrating versus Deum at the old High Altar. It caused quite stir, protests from "We are Church" and the usual suspects, but they quite cleverly invoked heritage protection of the original High Altar, dating from 1690, and they were backed by their Parish Council (which composition, incidentally, looks like half the Austrian upper nobility is represented) and by Cardinal von Schönborn. The only picture of the Altar I could find is this: http://bda.at/image/tn160x_783763376.jpg
Now I've found a better picture, it's old thoug, so you have to remember that the people's altar is gone: http://www.planet-vienna.com/
spo...st.rochus11.jpg
Ave Maria in Florida has the NOM in Latin every week too
I suspect part of the reason for what Fr. Kocik mentions is that because the usus antiquior was marginalized for so long, it still brings with it a security of sorts where a pastor may not yet feel so comfortable with regard to the ordinary form.
The fact of the matter as well is that we must move away from any sense of a balkanized parish liturgical experience akin to High Churchism and Low Churchism in Anglicanism; where the one liturgical form is for a traditional expression, and the other not. I would wonder if this isn't also a part of the issue Fr. Kocik raises.
But again, these things take time. Ad orientem still seems "radical" to many; this is something that can be eroded through the presence of the usus antiquior I think. If you see enough of those about that they begin to feel "routine" suddenly ad orientem doesn't seem so earth-shattering and radical.
Hmmm . . . my guess is the normative clebration of the OF in English would only work in the average parish with minimal liturgical faux pas if it were the first thing the pastor decides to change at Mass. Just say -a new pastor arrives to his new parish in June and decides the following September to start a series of lectures, homilies, bulletin inserts, etc, on why Ad orientem is really what VII wanted. Then he removes the free standing altar on the first Sunday of Advent and starts saying Mass on the old high altar. He does this without Latin, Gregorian Chant, bells, cool vestments, etc. I think this would be the most effective way to start the normative OF. From thereon, he can begin to change the other things on the subsequent 1st Sundays of Advent.
Paul M:
Vernacular ad orientem Masses are offered at:
St. Joseph - Detroit - Noon Wednesdays
http://www.saint-joseph-detroit.org
Sweetest Heart of Mary - Noon most Mondays, and 6:00 PM First Fridays
http://www.sweetestheartofmary.org
I have also seen the Cathedral of St. Paul, MN hold weekday Mass ad orientem at a side altar.
I agree with Fr. Ethan. It often seems to me that the loss of Ad Orientem is the single greatest loss in the Latin Rite Mass. Let's face it - if the priest's back IS to the people, then he's a lot less inclined to start making up his own words. It completely changes the focus of the Mass.
Unfortunately, it is perhaps a more controversial change to make than an integration of Latin. It requires a total change in practice and layout of the church. As my boss mentioned, you're left without a defense for doing it. If you incorporate Latin into the Mass, you can point to Sacrosanctam Concillium and say "see? Latin is to be retained!" It's not optional. There's little outside opinion to require one to face east.
Although I did make the half-joing comment to my boss that if we only had the high altar, we could only invite orthodox priests in to sub for him, as a liberal priest would have no idea how to say Mass without an altar facing the congregation!
Fr. Ethan,
Do you know of many pastors who have had success in doing what you indicate?
Gavin,
Regarding: It requires a total change in practice and layout of the church.
I can understand the change in practice, but how would it require a change in layout in most churches?
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