Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
This is great to see, I hope the TLM becomes availible to people of all nations and cultures not just the Western Hemisphere and Europe, especially when it is such a strong unifying force amoung Catholics who do not share a common tongue. Hopefully this will inspire other Chinese Catholics to embrace the TLM.
Of all the posts of the usus antiquor, this one perhaps is the most inspiring because of the celebrant.
Cardinal Zen celebrated the TLM in 2006, so this is his second solemn TLM, right?
How come there is no crucifix on the altar? Where is the crucifix on the altar for the mass?
Would this be a fruit of the "mutual enrichment" referred in the "reform of reform" that the Novus Ordo practice of using a standing crucifix at the side of the altar be applied to the 1962 Missal?
I suppose the crucifix on the wall is used as the crucifix for the mass? But why half of that crucifix was blocked? What is it that blocks the crucifix?
Fessio: Looking at the photos it appears that the candles are no more than 6" from the ceiling - do you think that just perhaps there might not have been enough vertical space (head room) for the cross? It is a bit frustrating to always read harsh judgmental comments...perhaps we all need to be a bit kinder and look at the space and it's limitations before being so severe.
If a church, chapel, oratory has physical space limitations and compromises must be made - what should one do? Not everyone can right off the top afford to buy - for example - a cross that fits the space limitations. What would be best - wait until you can obtain the money and donations to buy a cross that fits the low ceiling height, or perhaps one should wait until there is enough money to raise the ceiling and only then use the "too tall cross" at hand?
Should one bother to proceed with celebrating the TML when one knows not everything is perfect, perfect, perfect?
Things will probaly come to a complete stop if we expect everything to be absolutely perfect at such an early stage - we do nothing but discourage priests and the faithful from making an honest and worthy attempt.
Fraternal suggestions and kind corrections are always appreciated, but I wonder if the other critiques do more damage than good.
It's not because of space limitations. There's a crucifix on the back wall directly in front of the celebrant. A crucifix on the altar is not necessary in this case, even if preferable. My guess is that the structure in the middle of the gradine mimics the tabernacle on a more permanent altar.
An altar crucifix may be used in addition to a large wall crucifix but if there is a large wall crucifix the '62 rubrics (or at least a decree from the SRC) do not require there to be an additional altar crucifix.
"Fessio_ave_maria", I think it is fair to say you need to change your screen name.
The actual Fr. Fessio is known to occasionally comment on here, and people could easily be misled to believing you are Fr. Fessio.
Please change your comment name.
One thought that struck me is that I would be very interested in seeing a more close up and larger image of that chasuble.
Oriental Catholic art can often be quite unique and borrow from the artistic styles of that region, and it looks like this chasuble may be designed in this style -- which would be quite a rare site.
If the person who sent these photos has a larger version of one in which the back of Cardinal Zen's chasuble is clearly visible (or if you have access to this chasuble and can take a picture of it), I would be most interested.
kaneohe:
What I mean is, if a small crucifix which is easily obtainable is not even bothered to be used on the altar, what is the point of putting a box that mimics the tabernable which everyone knows is non-permanent (therefore superficial) and contains no blessed sacrament (as is seen there without the sanctuary lamp)?
My point is the visibility of the crucifix at the back is blocked, maybe not for the priest, but definitely from those at the pews. Well no one says this is a breach of the rubrics, but what I mean is something unnecessary and complete avoidable without a single penny of extra funds.
It looks like Fr. John Berg, from the FSSP, helped the Cardinal by the looks of the pics.
Yes, it is Fr. Berg.
The photos are from the Mass which was celebrated at the Salesian parish of Mary Help of Christians Church, 16 Tin Kwong Road,Kowloon, Hong Kong SAR. As from last Saturday, that church is the new home of the 'Tridentine Latin Mass Association of HK'. Please check their website for Mass times. The are also plenty of photos of EF Masses in Hong Kong on that website.
Since 2001 the EF Mass has been celebrated on Saturday afternoons in a school chapel, initially biweekly, but weekly since August 2007. Also, from May 2006 the afternoon Saturday Masses also fulfil the Sunday obligation. As yet, the Mary Help of Christians parish website does not mention the EF Mass.
It is easy to nitpick. Admittedly, there are not a few technical faults, such as the seventh candle (which shouldn't be there as the Cardinal is pontificating from the falstool, or rather in this case, the piano stool - I'm not being facetious, just pointing out a fact) but to move the EF Mass from a school chapel to an ordinary parish church is defintely an advance.
To my knowledge, this is the third time that the cardinal has celebrated the EF in recent years, first in December 2003, and again in April 2006.
Readers who have picked up on the faux "tabernacle" in the HK Mass may be interested in this link about the introduction the OF Mass to the PRC in the late 1980s. It seems to suggest that some folks associate gradines and tabernacles on the altar with the EF Mass, which might explain why they appeared, unecessarily, on the altar for the Cardinal's Mass last Saturday.
Ave Maria,
Give it a rest for the Love of God!
I think that the 7th candle is the Paschal candle, not an altar candle.
To our Hong Kong Chinese brethren:
You are fortunate to have a bishop -- a Cardinal, no less -- who has the patience and willingness to properly learn the rubrics of a Solemn Pontifical Mass.
On our side of the South China Sea, we've had some bishops celebrate Pontifical Low Masses, but none have yet learned how to properly celebrate a Solemn Pontifical Mass, and two of them butchered even the Low Mass so much that we've decided not to invite them again.
As for our Cardinals, to say that they "don't like" the TLM would be an understatement.
Anthony,
The 4th picture shows the Paschal Candle at the side. The one at the back of the altar is not the paschal candle.
Anthony,
The 4th picture shows the Paschal Candle at the side. The one at the back of the altar is not the paschal candle.
I should have changed my id to the new one: ave_maria_FL instead of ave_maria_fessio. Sorry for the confusion.
Shawn, my first thought upon seeing those images was that I would, too, be very interested in seeing a closeup of the back of that chausuble. Even when I enlarged it I couldn't make out the central imagery, but I do spot a pink lotus flower near the bottom.
I wasted my time looking at these photos (LOL). I was hoping to see a certain person laced in glory (LOL).
Seriously, it is great that Cardinal Zen again celebrated the Traditional Latin Mass. Also, has Fr Berg given priests in Hong Kong instruction on celebrating the TLM?
AW,
I too was looking for someone to be vested in an older-styled alb, such as (but not necessarily) that with lace. However it is nice to see the cardinal's alb matches with those of the deacon and subdeacon, as well as the chasuble with the dalmatic (and tunicle).
The modernity of the albs is totally overcome by the marvelous chasuble worn by the cardinal.
Who is that certain "laced" person you are looking for, if not one of the sacred ministers?
Sorry, ave_maria_FL, but all I will say is that the person should know who they are if they read my post.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/726...57604355015250/
^ A more detailed look at Cardinal Zen's chasuble
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