What a disappointment. Yes, I know I shouldn't complain because it is much better than in previous years, but criticism is allowed. Even if I look past the modern chasuble and mitre, the candle arrangement looks incredible awkward, the chair is still in front of the altar instead of where the papal throne should be. Why do they change so little on such a public occasion. It seems like they save the more traditional items for the less publicized masses and events. Nice altar frontal though.
I agree. It could have been worse, but they also could have done much more. I noticed the candle arrangement too; it looks rather odd. Why not restore the Papal Throne? It would be such a nice touch. Personally, I don’t mind the mitre, but one like what was worn at the Urbi et Orbi would be much more welcome. Oh, there is still so much more to be done!
Some will never be happy! ARGGGHHH!
Actually, I have no problem with the mitre, but the candles are odd, and I tought we were past that stage of placing the Throne in front of the Altar.
Good Friday's arrangement was undoubtedly superior.
I was personally not expecting to see the Pope come out in a Roman chasuble tonight, precisely because, as I say, the intent seems to be to mix things up a bit, and since he wore something more associated with the pre-conciliar era yesterday, it seemed unlikely he would wear something similar tonight.
Tomorrow, it's hard to say what we might see on the vestment front. I could see that going either way. Very difficult to say.
Also, keep in mind for a very public world event, the Urbi et Orbi blessing, the Pope wore some of the most baroque style vestments we had seen. So we have seen such elements in widely televised events.
As for the altar arrangement, you'll note these are a different set than is sometimes used on this altar under Msgr. Marini. Those are staggered at different heights whereas these are the same height.
I seem to recall making a mental note that when that is the case, they have been positioned as we see them tonight. I really don't see that as being a big issue. I like them straight across as well, but this with the seventh candle and central cross is still quite edifying.
The mitre is actually fairly traditional as well, and certainly the dalmatics (which we've seen before under Piero Marini) are also quite so, being white with gold woven through, similar to the red dalmatics used yesterday and on Palm Sunday.
The throne as we have seen it recently, I agree, would be very nice to see here tonight, but so be it. There may have been decisions about this pertaining to the particularities of tonight's liturgy for all we know. Given all we've seen, I think a little slack is deserved here.
At the end of the day, we're in a process, and we have great cause for rejoicing in all the progress we have seen this week:
- the continued sight of forms of vestments form earlier eras, both in the form of a cope and chasuble
- the traditional throne
- apparently a priest acting as a vested deacon (which may have further implications; we shall have to wait and see)
- the re-appeareance of the seven acolytes
Etcetera.
Transitional Deacon,
Let me say this: I am happy and very grateful for what the Holy Father has already done. However, criticism of the current liturgy is needed and most necessary in order to make it even more traditional and splendid. I think it is important to speak one's mind... and to be thankful and grateful at the same time. With all respect and optimism, I still say there is much more work ahead! That is not being negative whatsoever!
Seb: keep telling yourself those things. I'll believe it when I see folks praising what is good and just being happy with the enormous progress that has already been made, and not jumping to complain about every little thing that isn't the way they would like it. As Shawn said, this is a process.
As for the pallium, I still think that the conferral of the pallia at the end of June would be an opportune time for the Holy Father to switch back to a style that would work better with a wide variety of chasuble styles. Let's wait and see what he does.
Shawn et al.
I agree with all the disappointments described above, and I understand what Shawn is saying. I can only say that my anxiety about the Vigil comes from the fact that we're coming out of a 40 year down turn, and many of us are worried (at least I am) that this is all just a "flash in the pan" and not permanent. So while we are much appreciative of everything so far, I admit a worried uneasiness that it could all fall flat because of some political issue in the Vatican or outside that has arisen after all that has recently been re-implemented.
I still take issue with the fact that in a city with myriads of "ordained" lectors, they are still using laypersons (not in lectorate), for the readings. This is another plain example that the reforms of the Council have yet to be fully implemented.
PS: I'm not so disappointed in the pallium, I kinda like it. The Orthodox are quite pleased with it. We may not like it for style, but as an historian and one who knows a bit about liturgical history, it ain't half bad!
Note that the Orthodox make use of two omophorion, the short and the long, depending on the service. Perhaps we could do the same with pontifical pallia!
I must admit the cantors, and deacons are positively flawless in their chant!!! (Ok, as of the 2nd reading!)
J. Basil,
The good news is you have a bunch of liturgical progressivists who are have precisely the same worry about the past 40 odd years.
How about this.
If you read John Allen's latest column, you'll see that one of the individuals being baptized tonight is one of Italy's most prominent Muslims.
Pray for him, for our Holy Father, and THANK GOD for what he has done for us in Christ. And those who are courageous enough to say "yes."
Elaine:
Yes, wonderful! But this is a liturgy "site" or "blog" so forgive us!
On the bright side, most of this Mass is in Latin (yes, the readings are in various languages).
Opening prayer was in Italian.
"keep telling yourself those things. I'll believe it when I see folks praising what is good and just being happy with the enormous progress that has already been made, and not jumping to complain about every little thing that isn't the way they would like it. As Shawn said, this is a process."
Transitional Deacon,
I responded politely to your comment and explained my feelings and opinions. I pointed out I am grateful for what the Holy Father has already done, and it is not disrespectful to be politely critical. Perhaps you should read what people write before attacking them harshly. I am not complaining about "every little thing", and once again, I strongly feel there is much to be thankful for.
What a disappointment!!!
I agree with "anon"...
It's a good time to pray for priests and bishops, that they may be anointed by the Holy Ghost and illumined to return to the right liturgical praxis.
In the Novena of Divine Mercy, this day is set aside for prayer for priests and religious, and the solemn Good Friday orations include the memorable phrase: exaudi nos pro universis ordinibus supplicantes: ut gratiae tuae munere, ab omnibus tibi gradibus fideliter serviatur...
We can't control what happens in St. Peter's, but we can get in touch with Tradition and learn to use these magnificent orations.
It is nice to notice that the Holy Father is doing the traditional head bows during the Gloria that are mandated in the older missal.
Seb, forgive me, I was confusing what you originally said with what the person immediately before you said above.
ultimately the question to ask is how any of this will have an effect at St. Theatre in the Round catholic community in progressiville USA.
much needs to be done but for the first time in my 14 year career, I have validation for tradition-little by slowly. All these baby steps hopefully will encourage pastors to maby wear that fiddleback thats been collecting dust in the closet, maby use the bells this easter etc etc. As what was mentioned earlier, change in the parish must have the pastor on board. When ther pastor sees how its done in rome, maby he'll change, if but a little...
It is nice to notice that the Holy Father is doing the traditional head bows during the Gloria that are mandated in the older missal.
AS,
Watch him later. I'm sure he'll also make the Sign of the Cross with the chalice before he consumes the Precious Blood. He usually does.
Baby steps, folks, baby steps. We will know good sense has been restored to Holy Mother Church when we see the Holy Father makes use of the Holy Week ceremonies prior to the restoration [sic] of Pope Pius XII.
What amazes me about these photographs, and fills me with delight and consolation, is that these are the tall candlesticks that once permanently stood on the high altar of St Peter's for many centuries and were removed during the reign of Pope Paul VI. It is the first time they have been used for about forty years. I remember the dismay when they were removed and replaced by shallow candlesticks and thick low candles. Even the avant-garde of those days, like Peter Anson, complained. He was caustic in his condemnation. It is wonderful to see them in use again and I hope they will remain permanently on the altar, as they used to be. Not least they are in scale with the basilica and Bernini's baldacchino as a whole.
As for other commentators' disappointments, on one level I understand these too, but I urge people to have patience and trust Mgr Marini and the Holy Father. What has been accomplished in a short time is astonishing. They have a difficult path to tread and more people than purists to keep happy. If they became out and out in their Baroque preferences they would divide the Church. The reforms will, I suspect, be gradual but certain. I am praying that they will continued in the next reign and mark a genuine watershed.
The return of these candlesticks is more significant than people realize and offer enormous promise for the future.
The Pope is distributing Holy Communion by intinction! Deo gratias!
a world record for the SLOWEST Widor ever played!
Patience Iago...patience! Let us trust the Holy Father. He knows his mind and will do what is good to do at the right time, as far as that can go.
I am reminded also, that we must not put all our trust in men...even the Holy Father. We must put our full faith for the changes needed in the church, into the hands of God and all the heavenly hosts! That alone will ultimately make the changes the church so very much needs.
bjr
Just FYI, no further updates will now be posted in the post itself.
Where is the Lord Jesus in all the above? JH
Yes, I accept most of the points raised here. I MUST raise one big sore point that has annoyed me for a considerable number of years. The Deacon. He seems to have been there for years. His singing at Christmas and Easter ...his voice is exceptionally annoying. I am not sure if it is the STYLE or the DICTION or what....it simply is not a classical or Traditional style....just simply very, very annoying. Am I the only one to be annoyed?
Watching these ceremonies live via ETWN for the first time was truly uplifting. How so much better it all would be if they were to omit the commentary (yes, Cardinal Foley, too). Sub-title translations would be great!! If they would just let us see, hear, and cyberworship without interruption. Many times i found myself transported to celesial relms only to sent crashing rudely down to earth by some abnoxious comentator's inane utterances. "The Holy Father is now climbing the steps to sit in the apostoalic 'chair'!" The people who prepared long and hard to provide befitting liturgical music deserve being heard without hindrance, even, no most especially, during moments such as the distribution of Holy Communion. And for pete's sake, let us relish the recessional music--we did afer all richly earn it. Please let ETWN know, respecftully, cordially, humbly how much the commemtary distracts.
JH,
Interest in these details is similar to the technical considerations of theologians or philosophers. Realize where you are here. You are amongst a technical crowd.
Liturgical form is related to interior divine realities and there is a reason Pope Benedict and the tradition of the Church takes such things so seriously.
At the end of the day, these things are not devoid of Christ whatsoever; in fact, it is precisely in their relation to the Trinity and the sacramental realities that they are found to be so important. Interest in the liturgy and an appreciation of the tradition of the Church do indeed relate to Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit.
Further, let it be remembered that one cannot know the hearts of people, and one's love for these things can be an expression for their love of Christ, his sacrifice and his people. It is further an expression of love for the Church, the bride of Christ, and a recognition that these things involve our worship of God, can sanctify us and give testament to the sacred realities.
Sorry, I have to join the 'disappointeds' here. The Vatican did not publish the starting time on its website and EWTN got the start time wrong so I missed the beginning.
By the time I started watching we were into the readings. All the lights were blazing full on and the readings were interspersed with the most awful banal responsorial psalms. What had become of the glorious chants from the Graduale?
It was good that the Gloria from Mass I was used but no bells rang, and lighting the altar candles, when the whole church was already ablaze with lights, hardly conveyed the drama that should be apparent - this is supposed to be the moment of the Resurrection.
Then we moved into real JPII liturgy, with the alleluia sung not only endlessly before the Gospel but also afterwards.
Sorry, an awful mess and a great disappointment.
Ian,
EWTN's times were right, at least for EST. 4:00pm EST is when it started.
The lights when on, so far as I know, at the prescribed time in the modern rubrics. I've never seen it done where the altar candles are lit while the church is still in candlelight only.
I did hear bells ringing at the Gloria, but keep in mind its the external church bells, ringing out to the city.
So did Msgr. Marini have enough lace on today to outdo himself for Good Friday?
I like this mitre. And there are parts of the chasuble which I like, though I am a little disappointed it's not a fiddle back.
Oh well, we've got lots of time. 
I noticed there were no acolytes bearing torches at the proclamation of the Gospel. Did anyone else notice? And if so, why? Also the chanting of the Gospel seemed to be just A flat nasal monotone, surely it could have been set to something else? I mean something A little more Joyful perhaps?
Eric, I have played the Widor on that organ. In that acoustic, with a reverberation period of around 10 seconds, it has to be slower than usual, otherwise it would turn into musical mush. The recording mikes catch the direct sound but not the vast rolling acoustic of the basilica.
las8kr--there are no torches at the Gospel during the Easter Vigil because the Easter Candle in a sense stands in for them.
happy easter to anyone who might see my post!
Wow! Where to begin...
I understand the disappointment of some but I also agree that the type of people who like this blog should be pleased with what has been happening in the last several months. It is all FAR better than what came in years before.
The lights ALL come on after the third "Lumen Christi". Anyone who leaves the church in partial darkness after that is incorrect. Neither the Gloria, nor the Alleluia is the "moment" of the Resurrection. The Exsultet proclaims that "Jesus Christ Our King is Risen". The moment of commemorating the Resurrection occurs at the Exsultet so all the lights being on is most correct.
The vestments were fine. They may have been "modern" but they were gorgeous and fit the Holy Father very well. Among the modern vestments they have at the Vatican this was one of the nicest sets.
I was disappointed at the arrangement of the candles as well because it looked like they were giving in to those who complained that the former arrangement created a "barrier". But, I am also willing to accept the idea that Mons. Marini may simply be trying out some different things with different sets of candles. To me it was still wonderful that there were SIX and that the crucifix with the 7th candle was still in the center.
I am personally of the opinion that the Papal throne in the apse will not make a comeback for Papal masses in St. Peter's. (neither will the sedia or the tiara) I could be wrong and would be happy if this turns out to be the case. Surely the Pope had no problem with the throne a good distance behind the altar in the piazza and he also used the cathedra at the Lateran (which his predecessors of recent decades did not always do). But, it seems to me that they do not wish to use the apse at St. Peter's during masses at the Confessio so I don't think they'll be doing that again. In addition, the arrangement of the chair elswhere on a platform in the basilica is only being used when there is no mass. So far, whenever there is a mass the Pope is still consistently seated in front of the altar. I think that for the time being it will stay that way. Again, that may not be to everyone's liking but the thing I have appreciated since the advent of Mons. Marini is the moving of the ambo (lecturn) out of a place in the center of things.
While there still may be work to do I am extremely pleased at what has occurred so far and I look forward to what may still be coming. Monsignor Marini is doing the best he can (and I'm sure meeting with opposition at the Vatican) and it can't be easy doing it all under the disappointed gaze of his immediate predecessor. Give the guy a BREAK!
Amen, Father Selvester! Blessed Easter to you all!
Indeed. Overall, a very edifying first pass at Palm Sunday to Triduum, with some very positive occurences that I think some of us didn't expect.
Congratulations to Msgr. Marini as the Benedictine liturgical reform pushes ahead. It will be interesting, now that they have broken the ice on a few fronts, how they can proceed from here.
In reality, all of this is pushing ahead quite quickly.
A consideration of what we have seen the past week compared to a year ago the same week should actually be somewhat breathtaking to consider.
Yes, I agree there's nothing wrong with expressing unhappiness with this Mass I too did not like all of it as well. Yes Marini Iam sure is facing alot of resistance from the JP 2 liberals still entrenced in power at the Vatican, I wish the Holy Father would just get to it and say the TLM!!! Alot has been done for the better by Marini and we all agree it's better than JP 2's Masses. Don Guido and the Holy Father need our prayers, they both know what has to be done! And yes it was great to see the Muslim convert to the true faith only 2 billion more to go!
Well, I did it. Despite my strongest resolve to avoid reading this particular list of comments, or even to post to it myself, I failed. Sin seems to be no less difficult to avoid now as two days ago. I've read and re-read what is said at the top of the comments, "Critique Principles, not People. Be Discriminating, but don't Nitpick. Be Academic, not Acerbic. Be Principled, not Polemical," but still feel the need to do all that we're asked not to do.
His Holiness has done great things. Msgr. Marini has also done great things. There is still work to be done, ladies and gentlemen.
Just two years ago, I was still reading (albeit with some reservations) the stuff published through the likes of LTP, and agreeing with much of it. Since then I have learned a great deal thanks to sites like this one, and Musica Sacra, and WDTPRS, and am becoming more and more orthdox in my approach to liturgy (and music, being a music director in a Catholic church).
I'll never look back, having put my hand to the plow, but merciful heavens, this non-stop whining and cattiness with respect to this vestment, that mitre, where the candles are on the altar absolutely must end!
We'll never ever gain any kind of credibility if we, like Joan Crawford, sashay into a church doing it's level best (including the Vatica Basilica, I might add), and proclaim, "What a dump! This isn't right, that's not right. . . " Blah, blah, blah.
I for one am fed to the teeth with it!
If we don't move on, all the while praying for and thanking His Holiness for his great care, patience and tireless efforts to truly reform the liturgy, the Enemy will win.
Hear Hear!
This 'functional' Catholicism has to stop. Sure ceremonies and music still need tidying up, just as they did in the 1950's, but to complain about some legitimate variety within the tradition, like a medieval mitre or slightly different altar arrangement is so ridiculous. What would you have? The pope wear the same cope and mitre every time? Use the same candlesticks? Same sermon maybe? Seriously.
sameness, every single time, is the characteristic of the liturgies celebrated in practically all the parishes of the american church. people know when they see things a certain way, or hear a certain piece of music, that they will see or hear it again and again and again. so please forgive those who, knowing this, transfer this fear of sameness onto certain aspects of papal celebrations. in other words, if something varying from the rubrics is done once it may take hold and sameness may indeed set in. if there wasn't sameness here for all these years then people wouldn't fear something a little different there because they would know that it could be different again the next time. but this isn't the case here. once something novel is done, it can be imposed forever irregardless of its intrinsic worth. there is not novelty or creativity if that which was novel is endlessly repeated. the sacrifice of the cross is made present in the mass and is newly occurring for us but this does not mean that music from the 80's is made new in every mass...and if it does mean it then chant and polyphony would be made new in every mass too, wouldn't they?
I refer here to legitimate variation within the rubrics. IE: There is no stipulation as to the style of vestments or architecture etc
I do agree about music, which is lacking proper definitive teaching.
One needs to bear in mind the principle of organic development in liturgical reform. Many commenters seem to be insisting that the Holy Father and Msgr. Marini "hop to it" and get the reform of the reform completed by yesterday. It is just that sort of impatience on the part of the liturgical authorities in the 1960's which created the difficulties we have been facing with liturgical discontinuity. The Holy Father is no doubt treading very carefully to avoid, as far as possible, making the same error in the opposite direction. I for one am intensely thankful that the reform is clearly moving ahead.
yesterday i put the television on and saw the mass from alabama at the monastery of our lady of the angels. the altar arrangement seemed to mimic the one in these pictures. the candles were not spaced evenly but were bunched together at the ends. as far as i know, from rubrics that i myself did not write, the candles are supposed to be evenly spaced with the cross/seventh candle in the center. and this arrangement symbolizes the seven branched candlestick in the temple. if the rubrics specify this arrangement when there are 6 or 7 candles then this arrangement must have had a specific symbolism from the time in which it was initiated. therefore other arrangements would not necessarily be legitimate according to the original intentions. suffice it to say, those in rome should know the original intentions and they are doing us no favors by encouraging variations without having explained adequately any of the original symbolism.
There are no rubrics regarding the positioning of candles on the altar, let alone instructions that six/seven candles are used and placed in a particular order!
Personally, i feel that if the seven candles are used for mass pro-pop (facing the peoples), the seventh candle now needs to be smaller than the others so as not to obstruct view of the cross. I know this is 'contrary' to tradition but with the current altar arrangement the cross is almost completely obscured. A much much smaller candle in the centre would be a midway forward allowing the cross to be seen yet still retaining a reformed trace of former tradition. This still allows room for the traditional arrangement of mass ad-orientum where the seventh candle doesnt obstruct the view. Of course, with the particular set up of st peter's and many roman basilicas this is made slightly complicated. Anyone else with similar ideas/thoughts?
I'm switching off now in anticipation of a torent of abuse and condemnation from all you liturgical purists out there!!!!
Big Benny,
Tradition/custom is also relevant in matters like these of course.
dear ben, why do you want to cast doubt upon the symbolism intended by the arrangement of the objects upon the altar, especially when so much pictorial evidence exists to show the proper manner of arranging things? why was it always done in such a precise manner? even when small candles and cross were used during mass at the time of the council they were arranged in precisely that manner.
it appears that the practice of having seven candles may have preceded the practice of having six candles and a cross. in other words, the cross may be the additional object, not the seventh candle.
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