Post intelligent and civil comments. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the NLM
Adveniat Regnum Tuum!
Shouldn't that be, "a prayer FOR Queen Elizabeth"?
I went to Mass in Reading a few months ago. It looked sloppy to me. The servers were very unsure about what to do and the priest and MC kept talking to each other.
Other than that, very nice!
It sure sounds like they have a young congregation! So many babies cooing and squealing in the background, how fantastic!
Let us not be too critical. People will learn and God is very patient, especially given the circumstances. How nice to hear the chant for the Feast of Christ the King which we also sang yesterday at St. Vincent de Paul in Toronto. And is this not one of the great points about the usus antiquior--that we are all on the same page?
The Schola will get better too. Congratulations on the effort and keep practicing those neums!
P.
yes, you're right, but your comments reminded me of a mass I've seen where even the celebrant and ministers, let alone the servers, seemed unsure about what to do and where not only did the M.C. engage in conversation, but actually manhandled the sacred ministers!
You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v...h?
v=vUBWhUsLfHE
:>
Dr. Shaw,
I was about to say what Michael J. Houser did. Although I am one of her loyal Canadian subjects, I'm not quite ready to pray to Her Majesty! But I'm all in favour of praying for her.
An odd quirk of history is that in Alsace and Lorraine, where the concordat between the Holy See and Napoleon is still in force, and the Catholic Church is still the state religion, they pray "Domine, salvum fac rem publicam." As they say in these parts, "Beurk."
One of my favourite places in England is the church of the Tyburn nuns. The memories of the martyrs, the Blessed Sacrament exposed, the nun kneeling in adoration, and the two lit candles on either side of the sanctuary, one bearing the legend "For the Pope and the Church", and the other "For the Queen and England", form a powerful and moving combination.
P.
yes, you're right, but your comments reminded me of a mass I've seen where even the celebrant and ministers, let alone the servers, seemed unsure about what to do and where not only did the M.C. engage in conversation, but actually manhandled the sacred ministers!
You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v...h?
v=vUBWhUsLfHE
:>
Whoops! Someone delete that second comment, please.
Thanks for the comments. I'll correct the typo.
The videos certainly aren't examples of flawless liturgy, either from the servers or the singers. They do give a flavour of what is going on here.
I am very conscious of our limitations. At the moment we are in a cleft stick, as I see it. Asking the singers to meet before the day, as well as on the day, or getting them to sing every week, would be too demanding because they don't live locally. But without the practice, for the singers, and for the servers, it is very hard to really get it together. There are lots of little boys wanting to serve, so they obviously take it in turn; but with one missa cantata a month, on a rota, how are they going to get the practice?
I hope as time goes on some critical mass (no pun intended) will be achieved. But a crucial missing ingredient is a resident priest, so there could be low Mass and priest-led practices during the week. That is the next thing the FSSP, I think, would like to see in Reading.
was there no "Cry room"?? ;)
The liturgical shape of the prayer for the Queen is slightly anomalous, since it is an antiphon followed by a collect, without the usual versicle in between. (The 1948 OP English hand missal inserts a Glory be as versicle in between; as does a 1796 pocket missal in my possession.)
It is also strange, in that the collect addresses God as "thou who art the way, truth, and life" - seemingly addressing the Son - yet ends "Through Christ our Lord". I think a dubium was long ago submitted to the SCR about changing the ending to "Who livest and reignest", but this was refused.
I note that - despite Her Majesty's armed forces being in combat in Iraq, Afghanistan, (etc.?) - the celebrant didn't sing the phrase "hostes superare", normally inserted in time of war. LMS members may recall if this was done during the Falklands campaign!
I was surprised to hear the Prince Consort mentioned - according to my old missal the husband of the Queen would not be included, but perhaps a change was made.
Here's the antiphon and collect, which of course, adjusted for gender, and without mention of enemies, nor of spouse and offspring, is the votive prayer for the King from the Roman Missal:
Domine, salvum fac regem (reginam) nostrum (nostram) N.; et exaudi nos in die qua invocaverimus te.
Oremus.
Quaesumus, omnipotens Deus, ut famulus (famula) tuus (tua), N. , Rex (Regina) noster (nostra), qui tua miseratione suscepit regni gubernacula virtutum etiam omnium percipiat incrementum (incrementa): quibus decenter ornatus (ornata), et vitiorum monstra devitare [hostes superare], et ad te, qui via, veritas et vita es, cum regina (principe) consorte et prole regia, gratiosus (gratiosa) valeat pervenire. Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.
O Lord, save N. , our king (queen); and hear us in the day that we shall call upon thee.
Let us pray.
We beseech thee, O Almighty God, that thy servant (handmaid) N. , our King (Queen), who by thy mercy has undertaken the government of this realm, may also receive an increase of all virtues, wherwith being adorned, he (she) may avoid every enormity of sin, [vanquish his (her) enemies], and being rendered acceptable in thy sight, together with the Queen (Prince) consort and the Royal Issue, come at length to thee who art the way, the truth and the life. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Erratum: I misspelt "wherewith" in the collect.
I am dismayed by some of the captious, mean-spirited comments about this Mass and the congregation. It is wonderful to see a large, young congregation, and hear babies enjoying themselves. They were making happy sounds and the children at the front of the church were entirely at home. In the past only Anglicans put children in corners in their Father's house. As for the ceremonial, it forcefully reminded me of the muddle seen in many Catholic churches before Vatican II and I am delighted to see that level of naturalness returning to the sanctuary. As for the music, in those days few parish choirs knew how to sing the chant properly and the scola demonstrated a similar sense of reality. Parish churches are not monasteries and the character of this congregation thankfully showed that the Extraordinary Rite is not the exclusive choice of the odd, middle-aged, elderly and dessicated. I hope this is a portent of the future. 'Crying rooms' should be confined to malcontents, not children.
Well said Anthony Symondson SJ! The Mass is not the sole preserve of aliturgical elite, nor is chant. The average parish Church is not the FSSP Seminary and so on. We should be encouraging this grass-roots approach to tradition rather than ridiculing it.
As a traditional Catholic with a newborn son, I don't have all the time I would like to practise chant (I am a member of a small Schola) or to study the rubrics of the Mass as a part-time server, but I try. And as my grandmother (God rest her soul) used to say 'God loves us when we try our best, even if everyone else thinks it's not good enough'.
Well done to all the people in those videos, you are the future of the Church!
The cry of a baby is the sound of the future of the Church. It's wonderful to see all that's being done here.
It would sure be nice to be able to incorporate the prayers to Her Majesty into the EF Masses that take place here in Canada. It would be interesting to see if the indult to allow its use was written liberally enough to apply to those parts of the Commonwealth that still retain the Monarchy.
Regards,
I am quite in agreement with Mr Monozlai, and had the same question.
One (more) thing I like very much in the Byzantine liturgy is that Her Majesty is prayed for by name during the intercessions.
From the North-East: Fr Hudson has been singing a monthly Mass in York, which from this Sunday will be twice monthly. Here are the details:
venue: English Martyrs, Dalton Terrace, York
time: the 1st and 3rd Sundays of each month at 6 p.m.
The Mass has been going since July, thanks to the generosity of the parish priest, Fr Dominique Minskip and (as the MP had not then come into force) with the permission of the outgoing Bishop of Middlesbrough. Attendance is up and down, between 35 and 80. As I am discovering, parents of young children do not like evening Masses, and prefer to have a fixed weekly routine. A weekly Mass on a Sunday morning would, therefore, be much better attended, IMHO.
Fr Hudson is tireless (I think he says Mass in Chester in the morning), and sings the Mass beautifully. He preaches solid, doctrinal sermons, though he did lapse into French the other Sunday! He did once commit the heinous crime of referring to the SARUM instead of the YORK Use when mentioning medieval praxis, but we are a forgiving lot in Yorkshire ...
Joshua: I understood that 'Domine salvum fac' was actually a versicle & response without an antiphon, rather than the other way round. Either way, it's an anomaly.
When the singing is too bad, it is better not to have any singing. There are fine organ masses.
When the servers are unsure, one should of course keep to a simplier form, in this case with two servers and no pseudo-procession before the Gospel (which, incidentally, is only a toleration).
Goodwill is very good. Presumption is not.
Into the crying room with you, Jon K.
Jon K - where is your charity?
I'd much prefer this singing at Mass to organ music. Jon K is rather presumptuous with his comment. It's this sort of misguided perfectionism that resulted in guitar masses and the gather hymnal.
And please, complaining about children? What are you, Catholics or decadent secularists?
A few remarks.
Not noticing the obvious or refusing to use one´s judgement and self-restraint has little to do with charity.
As a matter of fact, it is activism, lack of love for the liturgy, general sloppiness and a lack of prayer that gave us guitar masses.
A good intention is at times not enough. As I said, a very badly sung with servers ill-prepared Mass is not better than a (contemplative) low Mass. It has nothing to do with personal taste. Liturgy badly done (I might add that the priest in question was obviously not well-prepared either) is the worst publicity we can give the traditional liturgy.
Respect for the liturgy is not perfectionism. It is in fact an act of humility. We do not own the liturgy. What certain here call perfectionism is what was commonly practiced in the Latin Church before the late 50s. I take the opportunity to point out that this sort of argument is protestant in spirit. It is frequently used against the older liturgy, and even against the principle of liturgy itself.
Where "reluctant penitent" got the idea that I said anything concerning children, I simply cannot fanthom.
If Father S has anything to say to me, I suggest he does so in a way we can all understand. Mind you, Father : simply bullying will not impress me in the least. I have seen far too much clerical silliness and incompetence.
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