You're my kind of asshole, Dutch.
This is such a shame -- I hate the "no one will know/care" and "innocent crime" rationalization of what Babble/Babble's poorly trained staff did and perhaps DO as a matter of policy. Glad you were able to resolve the matter in this instance, and I do think Nerve/Babble will change their dubious practices.
Also, as an IP lawyer, I was pleased to see you describe yourself as a good lawyer. It's a real skill and talent, not just assholishness (tho that does come up from time to time). I wonder if there is room in your current life for some good lawyering. Might take a different shape, and perhaps this experience was part of that?
Good for you, Dutch. A certain corporate hipster site is now off my bookmarks, and my previously rigorous web paranoia is back (heh heh) online.
I love your site, btw.
I saw that photo on Babble and naively assumed you knew about it.
Viva la asshole!
Well, that all resoundingly sucks. I, for one, enjoyed the pictures of Juniper gallivanting around downtown Detroit. They always gave me hope that someone else would see the beauty in the city and want to make it their home, too.
Now, what about this naked chick on a horse in Chelsea? I've been here for 5.5 years and I never heard anything about that.
Who you should really apologize to is your daughter for unashamedly blasting her photos and details all over the web to indulge some need for attention. Selfish, shameful, and as a childrens rights advocate/lawyer I know it's a recipe for disaster. Congrats for realizing that you are the kind of asshole that gives the American legal profession a bad name - and for helping build the litigious society that makes life miserable for so many. When you're old and alone (because you inevetiably will be alone if you keep this up) you'll have plenty of time to reflect on your poor choices. Although as a failed professional it seems like you have plenty of time on your hands now. Loser.
-SARAHMcD
"But you said he."
Dutch Jr.?
I can't tell you how much I love that you have a Feuds Binder. It reminds me of a friend (who is not a lawyer, but a novelist) who is always stumbling into feuds.
I know I've learned so much because of this particular feud. I've been naive and will be changing my internet habits. (Although I will miss your pics of Juniper!)
Jeez, Sarah, the Jerk Store store called.... Come back in ten days and read your comment. If you still think it's reasonable, then you are as you come across.
Delurking to say I'm glad you're fighting back against Nerve/Babble. Maybe their parenting site should feature an article about corporations and perverts stealing photos of other people's kids. Yuck. I was further suprised to see that the author of that story, Miriam Axel-Lute, is a woman who I know from my undergrad days. After hearing about Alison Chang & the Virgin Mobile story, I had already deleted my flickr account. Sad, isn't it?
Just read about this case of an Australian ad agency using a Flickr photo of an American adult in a major campaign without permission or notice (plus it played on racial stereotypes): http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=826
OK, so Sarah McD is a little harsh. But I have an ongoing discussion about this with ThisWife. I am a purely transactional lawyer. ThisWife is a litigator. In a negotiation, she tends to escalate quickly, and the threat of litigation is thrown down early. I contend that this is the trait of a litigator.
That said, I'm the one that should have a feud binder (currently, I'm feuding with our cable company and with the developers of an apartment building going up down the street that is shaking our foundations and rising above the neighborhood's height limitation). So maybe it's a lawyer thing.
But I prefer to think of it as being repulsed by injustice, and trying to come up with a means to combat it.
If the folks at that website stop using other people's copyrighted material without permission, then maybe this is over.
If not, it sounds like willful infringement. Check Section 504(c)(2) of the Copyright Act (Although I suspect you already have.)
I've been following the ongoing Flickr/Babble saga on your Flickr site. What an absolute crying shame that it's had to come to this. The nerve of Nerve is staggering--particularly the guy who suggested you're in it for the money.
I don't care if they publish the Holy Grail: I wasn't a Babble reader before, and I don't see becoming one now.
babble is lame. hipster website indeed..gaw its gross. good for you for flinging their shit at them!
I had seen the flickr thread a day or two ago, but hadn't realized how intense it had gotten.
I'm sorry you're going through this, and sorry you feel you had to remove so many photos. It has been a pleasure seeing that part of your lives.
But do what you've gotta do.
You're a principled mofo and all who read here know that and respect that.
Keep on keepin on.
Why do people like Sarah McD read blogs but then say that the writers of said blogs all have a need for attention? I don't get it.
I think litigious is good, because the alternative is to give in to my first impulse, (if this happened to me and mine) which would be to wander over to Broadway with a Louisville Slugger and bust some copyright-infringing, privacy-invading kneecaps. See how far we've come?
And Sarah McD, I think the self-righteous may also wind up alone, or perhaps just standing on a corner somewhere, shaking their fist at passers-by and screaming jeremiads at the four winds. Have you got your corner picked out yet, or will you just be a flaming commenter at your lonely keyboard?
Hi SarahMcD,
I would have liked to hear your arguments regarding blogging about children. However, it got muddied by your personal and hurtful comments. As a children's rights advocate/lawyer, I would think that you would know how much work it takes to be an involved parent and raise a happy child. So when you called Dutch a "failed professional" and stated that he had "plenty of time" on his hands, I can only assume that you were trying to be mean.
Maybe you'd like to try your comment again?
This completely sucks. I love your website and all of the photos of Juniper. I look forward to your posts, get a kick out of watching your daughter grow up and I was looking forward to being able to see little Dutch-Wood #2 in the same way. That said, I can empathize with how violated you must have felt, and understand why you've changed your ways with the pictures. But still - BOO on Babble!
I actually liked SaraMcD's comment. It reminded me of how ineffective it is to take assholery way too far.
boo ya. go dutch.
you can bet i'm thinking twice about the photos i'm putting online and the privacy i have around them.
I'd like to add to your list:
4. You can leave on descriptive tags and titles while preventing a wayward babble intern (cough) from finding your stuff. Just go to your account settings and turn OFF the ability to find your images in site-wide searches. You can also do it invidually for each photo, instead of as a default, by clicking on "flag this photo" and toggling your prefs there.
Hope that helps!
My wife is a litigator and every now and then I end up in her office and overhear some of her phone calls with opposing council. I'm always astounded at how frank and downright mean she sometimes sounds. Completely opposite of her normal persona, which is warm and caring and fluffy and full of puppies and kittens. Most of the time. :-]
I wonder if maybe the "asshole footprint" isn't at least partially a function of training and having to deal with asshole opposing councils.
Oh damn, that's really item 2.a more than 4, I see now, with careful reading.
In any case. This has been a good lesson for others and a terrible, terrible PR move for Babble. Oopsie!
I love the fact that you have a Feuds binder.
I saw the picture on Babble's site. I thought to myself, "that looks like Dutch's daughter" but didn't really think it was because I knew you wouldn't agree to such a thing. Now I know.
Yet another attorney checking in to say I think you did right by standing up to them. And this is from a peace brokering transactional lawyer (kumbaya!), SarahMcD, who doesn't jump to the threat of litigation within 5 seconds of opening negotiation.
I am tired of companies who try to manipulate and exploit artists who don't have the resources to fight-all it takes is f*cking with one lawyer. I sincerely hopes Babble learns their lesson from now on.
Dutch, we NEED your asshole footprint. Lets say someone stole a picture that I took, posted on Flickr (unlikely, given my lack of photo talent). 1) I really wouldn't know that my intellectual rights had been infringed upon and 2) I wouldn't know how to ask them to take it down. People like me need people like you who are willing to be assholes to stand up for themselves! I will be sad to see less pics of juniper. She is so darling and your graffiti pictures - so clever. But I certainly understand that you've got your baby and your property (the photo, the idea of the photo) to protect.
I read about the feud on your Flickr site and it got me so tense just thinking about it. For some really stupid reason, after reading you for about 18 months and watching Juniper grow up in those Flickr photos I felt like I wanted to be right there with you protecting Juney. It makes me sad that theving corporates like them make it scary to share your life, writing and child with us.
I also thought how fucking dumb do they have to be to unlawfully publish photos of Juniper? Anyone who reads your site for a few days would know you would never sell her image. And you have such a huge following it's not like you wouldn't find out. Good for you for unleashing your "full asshole mode" - they deserved it!
I cannot express how awesome I think Wood is that she keeps a "feud" binder. You two are adorable.
I hope you will put up photos, at least for a short time, for us regular readers. They don't need to stay up forever! No, do whatever is best for your family.
Congrats on the your son to be!
ok so maybe I was harsh...but when reading this blog I felt that this was the way the writer likes to communicate. I get so fired up when I see a child's life put up on the internet for anyone to see - its so not fair to them. They don't have the opportunity to make an informed adult decision. This child depends on her father to protect her, and he responds by exposing her life online and misdirecting his anger at other parts of the same mommy/daddy blog culture that he built himself. Sure, he owns the photos he takes of his daughter. but she owns the life that they represent and if you ask me, he is quite cavalier with that.
As for the photos, I removed about a thousand completely, because they simply weren't very good. I am keeping many photos on flickr, but they will only be available to contacts. If you want to see them, please feel free to add us as a contact. I will still upload an occasional picture of her. I am not going to let Babble completely destroy the pleasure of sharing photos with this online community, the vast majority of which are kind, positive, and generally wonderful people.
Obviously Sarah has not been reading the blog very long, or consistently.
Dutch, your asshole footprint is perfect. And never for 2 seconds should you every think that Juniper could be anything but proud to be your child. Your posts make me wish my parents had detailed the joy (or not joy) they had in raising me.
De-lurking to say that I just took Babble off my internet links list. What a bunch of maroons. Good on you to fight them. You're an inspiration to us all.
Where Sarah McD sees a need for attention, I see a desire for community. IMO, most family bloggers, Dutch and Wood most definitely included, are following in the footsteps of writers from Virginia Woolf to Nancy Mairs to Erma Bombeck, taking their love for their children and for themselves and expanding it out to the world.
sarah:
though I may be a failed professional, my wife is not. she has worked in the field of child welfare for years, visiting the homes of children who were subject to abuse and neglect proceedings, and representing those children in state proceedings. upon graduation she received a prestigious fellowship to work for two years at one of the top child law centers in the country, working both in direct representation and impact litigation all focused on the health and welfare of this nation's children. One of her colleagues in the Bay Area was the daughter of the famous writer and novelist Calvin Trillin, who throughout the seventies, eighties, and nineties wrote beautiful what I will stoop to call "blog-like" anecdotes about his family---particularly his children---in various publications, including The Nation, that were much wider-read than our little blog.
Mr. Trillin's daughter is a wonderful person, well-adjusted, sophisticated, accomplished, an excellent child welfare lawyer and a great mom. She seems not to have suffered too much from her father's dangerous, exploitative exposure of her childly foibles and mishaps. Someday I hope to talk to Mr. Trillin about this parenting blog phenomenon to see what he'd have to say, because I'm sure what he would say would be far more eloquent than anything I could come up with.
Mr. Trillin recently wrote one of the most touching, beautiful things I have ever read: a tribute to his wife, the love of his life, who died on September 11, 2001 (though not in the attacks). I wonder if Mr. Trillin were attacked for exploiting his family members, if he wouldn't just explain that he is simply a writer, and that is what writers do. We use our own experiences to make a very human connection with others, and try to capture something of what makes life so beautiful.
I AM a failed lawyer. But I am swelling with the confidence this website has given me that I may not be a failure as a writer. This website is not designed to exploit my daughter, but to share my writing and experiences and tell my family's story. I have met and encountered so many kind and amazing people in the two years I've been doing it.
It's only occasionally that I encounter someone like you.
You were right on to be an asshole about this one. I'm just glad that you know your stuff and were able to put them in your place. Fuck them!!
All I can really say is I'm proud to know you and Wood.
And the only reason I *know* you is because of OUR ONLINE COMMUNITY. For which I am most grateful.
Holy cow, what a nightmare. Thanks to Dutch and the commenters for their helpful tips on protecting flickr images.
I have to admit to feeling a little bad regarding Sarah's comments. I started my blog because both sets of grandparents are out of state. I post photos and videos so they and friends from college can keep up on Charlotte. But I post them to flickr and youtube, where any creepo can see them. Does that make me a weird, attention-seeking, needy parent? God, I hope not. Please tell me I'm not!
I was reading the comments and getting angrier and angrier at Sarah for not seeing how inane she sounded and then Dutch went and summed it up way better than I ever could have.
For the record, I don't have a kid (yet! but hopefully soon!), I come to this site to read your writing which I think is truly great. Your points about Trillin were dead on accurate, what are writers supposed to write about?
I suppose nobody should ever chronicle their lives or experiences in a public way because that would mean exposing their children/friends/family/etc to the public without their explicit consent? Imagine what a drab world it would be if we all guarded our stories that way.
you know what i find ironic today? i work for a baby site (not babble) and we asked our users for photos to use on our site. and they happily sent in photos. we asked, they provided, gave permission.
it was *that* easy.
I am a first time commenter, I just felt compelled to do so. I wanted to ditto bluestars comment. Your blog is beautifully written and with myself and clearly so many others you have made that human connection. Thank you.
If Babble wants free photos, then why not create a pool where people can submit photos for publication online? DCist has a Flickr pool that photographers can contribute to. The pool has 809 members right now and nearly 12,000 photos. All DCist posts have a photo included, usually from the Flickr pool, and the photographer gets a screen credit and a chance to get exposure before a huge audience. We have a friend who is a freelance photographer, relocated to DC from Michigan, and it has been a great way for him to get exposure and feedback. Why does Babble have to make it so effing hard? And offensive?
you're not an asshole and if you are, then so am i because i feel the same way. as for flickr, we made all our photos only available to friends and family. if people want to see them, they have either get
invited by me or ask and then i can decide who sees
what.
yours, proudly in assholedness -- barbara
Asshole Fottprint is such a great phrase
Now when boyjuniper is born, we won't get to see wonderful bundles of heartwarming photos, detailing the raising of a baby to readers who may not have scrapbooks to peruse in real life.
And this loss to us, and affront to the parents who now have to fear sharing images, is because Babble wanted to save some time sourcing photos?
What a sad waste!
wow, it's all like 2006 what with the back and forth comments and all.
yeesh, sarah mcd, i'm glad dutch commented back cause i was confused that you didn't know what wood does for a living? and i hate to jump on the hater bandwagon but i personally take offense to the term "FAILED PROFESSIONAL"- really? i mean, really? i don't mean to re-hash the whole thing from last week, but thanks for fostering the idea that anyone who chooses to parent full-time (or at all, for that matter) is a failure. i'm certain at least 1/2 the kids you are working so hard to protect could have used a little more parenting from someone like dutch or myself or the 100's of other "failed professionals" who read this blog. have you thought of that? see, you're not the only one who can get all fired up about injustice, legitimate or not.
on a much lighter note- i am sending that vanityfair link to so many people, thanks- that is awesome.
when i read that comment about some "clueless intern" i laughed my ass off- i used to be in that field and i am so.fucking.sure. no one who gets a paycheck doesn't oversee everything that gets put on the site. ahahaha. as if an intern has that type of power. right. thank god they bored me to death months ago.
and for those of you who are not interested in the idea of public hosting of images, we use kodak's easyshare (invite/registration required) and phanfare (password protected) to share media online with friends and family.
keep up the good fights, dutch, asshole or not.
Oyvey, another thing to Keep Bossy Up At Night. She has a binder full of those...
I'm a fourth year associate. I just forwarded this post to all of my classmates so that we can label our dreams. "Failed lawyer" is the new black.
I recently sat in on a conference call with my boss. Once he hung up, I told him that he and opposing counsel were like a couple of dogs--sniffing around each other with the hair on the back of their necks standing up. They finally decided that the other was OK and managed to reach an amicable solution. That doesn't often happen. It's the thing that drives me the most crazy about practicing--the people out there who have no concept of their asshole footprint. And their heads are so far up their own asses that they couldn't hear you if you tried to point it out.
Anyway--the whole Babble thing sucks. I agree that your footprint was just the right size.
dagnammit, ten minutes of heartfelt, prickles-raised one-handed typing sucked up into the ether.
short version: love asshole footprint, but you are so much more, both of you. such is why we're all here, for all your contradictions, snark alongside sentiment.
Biffy McBitter: the interweb equivalent of dropping her drawers and squashing her ass out the window of a moving car. you responded to her with such grace.
community, not attention. light, warmth, solidarity, penguins in a storm... needless to say, I couldn't agree more.
Who knows what the internet will be when Juniper is old enough to use it, but I bet she'll be happy to have such a touching written record of her childhood. So many of my friends born in the 70's have only a handful of baby pictures and maybe a cheesy, vinyl covered baby book documenting life's first few weeks. And our parents certainly don't remember all the little details that you have captured beautifully on your site for Juniper. It's unfortunate this mess has tainted your perspective for future Juniper stories and all but ruined the possibility of starting up "Sweet-DutchJr.com" 
Dutch...i think you already know that you're my favorite asshole in the entire world. Kudos to you for busting it to the Babble brigade. Next time we sit down for a couple bottles of sake, I'll tell you some stories that will have your sense of irony in overdrive.
By the way, I took the quiz. Surprisingly, my Asshole Footprint was shockingly low. Oh well...off for some martinis at the club. Ta ta!
Ouch. I am really, really sorry this happened to you.
Oh this truly blows.
Good for you for being an asshole and standing up.
At least you are an eloquent and funny asshole, Dutch!
It always astounds me to see people like Sarah McD comment so critically on your site. Clearly, she didn't make any convincing argument, so if her intention was to persuade, she obviously sucks as an atty. If it was just to be a judgmental asshole herself, she achieved her goal. To each his own. Go read someone else's site and leave this community to itself.
Good for you for sticking up for yourself. At least Juniper didn't end up here: http://www.scoutj.com/2007/09/24...flickr-friends/
. Another flickr theft story, only this one is truly disgusting.
The fact that your wife keeps a feuds binder, which she consults and leaves out for your perusal on a frequent basis, is fucking hilarious. I'm hoping my husband doesn't read this post or soon there will be something similar around my house.
Also, that's so cool Wood knows one of the Trillin daughters. I love Calvin Trillin's writing about his family, and it's one of things I keep in mind when I think about the kind of family we want to be.
i know i'm not by any means the first person to offer the "this sucks, i love the photos of juniper's antics, but do what you gotta do" sentiment, but i want to echo it.
with so much of this generation going through the important parts of their lives in cities far from where they were raised, i've always felt blogs provide a place for community, a place to belong. and while i'm anonymous in name online, i'm much less anonymous than i am in most of my daily life to most of the people with whom i interact.
i don't think we should have to sacrifice desires to form/be part of a community so that we can sterilize the internet down to its lowest common denominator. i refuse to do it.
i think it'd be worth a lawsuit against babble just to get an injunction making them run a permanent story on how parents can keep their online pictures of their children out of the hands of those who would use them illegally.
I am so sorry this has happened. I also took down most of my son's photos from flickr recently when I noticed that certain photos where he was naked getting his very-first-ever bath were getting 4-5x the number of views as any others. Sicker still, the ones where his penis was showing had 4-5x of the other bath shots. I'm talking about a 2 week old baby, here. Needless to say, that gave me the creeps. I figure it was because I had the word 'bath' in the tags. Well, no more tags for me.
I am with you 100%, Dutch. Thank you for not taking that measly $100 and instead elegantly sticking it straight into Babble's hipster ass.
I'm sad that there won't be as many pics of Juniper, but it's completely understandable. Please keep posting lots of pics of Detroit to make up for it though!!! (Thanks for the flickr tips, I'm looking into changing the licensing on my photos)
damn babble. I said it on flickr and I'll say it again - they ruined it for everyone. I have been immensely inspired by your pictures and words. Flickr has been an amazing motivator for me to better capture my life and my kids. I'll continue to look forward to the little bits you guys choose to share after this hideous experience.
1. Bob Costas recently said that the overwhelming tone of most blog "discussions" is one of aggression and character assassination. I believe that Dutch's "tone" has always been consistent - that of a caring father who has a healthy love of profanity -WHEN USED CREATIVELY. I've never once thought he was an asshole - of course, that might mean I am one.
2. Dutch's response was only to the escalation in tone by others, and here is where Costas' comments ring particularly true. I mean seriously - Dutch is a bad father? Who wants to make money off his child? Are you freakin' kidding me?
3. Dutch - your family rocks, your daughter is a peach, and if you have to post less pictures that's fine. I know you'll still be taking them, and building a community around this little girl and family that will hopefully negate the attitudes of less well-intentioned people. Also, never stop swearing.
4. As a recent law school graduate who has still not decided to pursue a career in law, AND as someone currently working in an intellectual property office, this type of story incenses me. Stop pretending you don't know things are illegal, you stupid parenting magazine. Ignorance is not a defense (I guess that 30K education was worth something). Also - don't mess with sweet Juniper.
Ok I know I'm in the minority here, but I really don't think Babble did this on purpose.. And I don't think they deserve this level of vitriol
My two cents on the matter:
ttp://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/
archive/2007/09/26/flickr-pictures-taken-without-
permission-babble-responds.aspx
And yes I write for Babble so perhaps I"m blinded to their true evil.
I saw that picture and thought you had given permission, infact, I thought at first that you had written the article! Looks like they apologized and took the pic down though.
You are not a failed anything. You are lucky enough to have made the choices in your life and career that served you and your family best.
I too write for Babble and agree with Dutch for being angry. I would feel the same way had I been in his place. He knows that, just as I know his issue is with the company not me. It's a hate the government but not the soldiers thing. I get it.
It just makes me sad reading these comments and seeing how little thought some of the people are putting into them. Yes, it's easy to fight the power and stand outside Babble with torches and pitchforks, but please don't forget that the monsters you are wanting to lynch are a part of you. We are all parents and bloggers. Good parents and some excellent bloggers (not me, but some of them). We are having to watch as people we admire and call friends wish poxes upon our house.
Working for Babble is my job. I'm not hip. I'm not trying to hurt anyone or use their flickr photos to promote my agenda. I'm just a dad that loves his kids and writes on a website for parents so that I can stay home and be a part of their lives.
People are quick to fling rocks at a monster, but in the long run the ones that get hurt are the writers, just a bunch of parent bloggers, and the kids they work to support.
Dutch knows this, I hope those of you that are quick to write us off consider it as well.
Whit
whit and rachael (redsy), I understand how any comments here about babble sting. you work for them. you are depending on them for some income. but I don't think anyone is being unfair or not putting thought into their comments. my commenters are very thoughtful people.
the way I see it, you certainly are not babble. you are just another commodity to babble. you have talent, brains, humor, and (perhaps most important to your employer) an independent readership. babble is nothing without the talent the management has gathered to put out a product for consumption by a desired audience of "young, hip" parents. Babble is not the hip, edgy, independent little folksy gathering of young parents Rufus repeatedly tries to portray it to be. It is a corporation. It has investors. It wants more market share and more dollars. Babble is not a person. You are people. I care about all of you, and I respect your talent.
But now, the talent arm of babble has been provided a startling glimpse of what the management arm thinks about the value of artistic product. I certainly would never judge anyone for working there (I was planning to write there for a while myself!). I don't want to hurt any of my fellow bloggers. But please don't have any illusions about what you're working for. It's not an artist collective. It's a corporation that needs to be taught some responsibility.
Love the asshole in you. Good job. I had to remove all the photos of my two boys (3.5 and 1.5) off of Flickr because I discovered that other registered older men left really creepy comments one day. I looked up their sites and they had questionable pictures (Thailand, little children, etc--none were pornographic or naked, but they were highly suggestive and emotive). Its disgusting, but its what these people do. They look and look and copy/download photos that they 'like'. An innocent cute photo for family to look at (blowing up a balloon, going down a slide) is like pornography for these people (I did my thesis on sex offenders, I know a tad about the subject). I had no idea it was happening until that day. Sorry that the mag. took your photo.
But please don't have any illusions about what you're working for.
Heh. I work for Rupert Murdoch myself.
Most of my friends are assholes. I'm also a fellow asshole. Nice to meet you.
The flickr thread was riveting. I thought you were totally on point about everything until you lambasted mommy bloggers and money grubbing new yorkers. I'm not only an asshole, but those two things as well.
I remember seeing your shots of Juniper when I first started blogging and didn't get the whole sharing online thing happening. I get it now, but still don't understand how trusting parents are with these intimate glimpses into their private lives. It's something I'm intensely indecisive about when posting pictures of my son.
The thing I still don't get is how acerbic and nasty you can get, and then about-face by writing things like this post. I haven't been a reader until now really. I think I'm now addicted to the drama and entertainment you provide in your writing here and on other blogs by being a very confused asshole.
You totally crack me up. I love it.
come on, momomax, I've never about-faced in my life. it's against the asshole creed!
Can't we all just get along?
Or better yet, start a REAL artist's collective?
We already have one! That's what this "blogosphere" is. We are all doing this because we love it. None of us started with ads. None of us started writing for Rufus Griscom.
Corporations have invaded this purespace, whether we like it or not. They are in Sweet Juniper!(TM)'s header and sidebars. They want their piece of the action.
Babble burst quite arrogantly into an existing and thriving community of writing parents and offered some of them money for their talent. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But to me, every person who writes there is someone who really made their bones writing on their own sites, from their hearts, for an audience of fellow parents. Not for cash, but for community and the sheer pleasure of self expression.
I must be living in a cave. I am just now reading about all of this and I feel terrible. Really sorry to hear about all of this, Dutch. (And Wood, and Juniper). I hope you are right, that this will result in some major changes where photo-stealing is concerned. And thank you for the Flickr tips.
Wait, there's an asshole CREED? I hadn't comprehended the level of organization assholery had attained. I guess I need to update my membership.
I agree with the person who said that this kind of thing is not assholery when directed toward an injustice. Injustice should make us angry. And perhaps we should give no quarter to the unjust. Particularly, the corporate unjust.
I suppose the only danger is losing sight of the humanity of those you rage against but doing that still doesn't require being nice to them. (Although it may require refraining from their destruction.)
When I was doing my should I or shouldn't I go to law school thing you wrote me a nice email about your experience--thanks for that. This post is also illuminating.
I have the rage against the exploiters and the smug bastards of the world but lack the tenacity you describe. I recognize it though and love it when it is used for ethical or necessary purposes--as it was in this case.
And P.S., thanks for that last comment. I must have missed it when I posted mine. The blogopshere has changed drastically in the last few years when many of us started (with a handful of readers, a tiny community.) but I like to think we're all still writing from our hearts and for our community. And that we will continue to share our stories around the fire, regardless of who or what has compensated us for them.
I somewhat resent that because I spoke up to support Dutch in this instance that I put no thought into my comments. Or that I'm supposed to change my opinions on intellectual property theft because the employees of a company that engages in it are nice people. My dad is a scientist with over 30 patents-take his inventions and use them for personal profit and you're yanking his source of support for *his* family by stealing his work. So spare me the moral highground and "what about the children" outrage. When you steal from people who create for a living, whether it's through words, images or aluminum (yeah, my dad holds 75% of the patents to commercial alloys), you're stealing from their ability to support their own families. I find it annoying that this would have to be spelled out to anyone at Babble. Either that or the livelihoods and families of people Babble steals from doesn't concern them as much since they're parents with kids.
Dutch, thanks for showing me that intelligent, moral, self-examining dads that can write well exist! It really does give me some hope.
In trying to figure out how I feel about this whole controversy, I come back to my trait of being forgiving to a fault, of giving others the benefit of the doubt when there's no evidence that they are deserving of it, knowing, for example, that I could never be a prosecutor though I'm glad the prosecutor types exist and can make the hard strong decisions that I'm too wishy washy to make. So I think of Dutch and others as the prosecutors - Sam Watterson on Law & Order. Babble's history of this Flickr stealing certainly indicates deliberate wrongdoing, but I do wonder if, in light of the very public apologies now made (though Rufus' suggestion of Dutch's mercenary motive was CrAzy!), the quick action they took to rectify the situation, there is room to give them a "fifth" chance? If from now on, they were never to do it again - would it be okay to go back once in awhile? It needn't be said I believe that their unauthorized use of that precious photo was awful - it's just I'm a sucker for apologies.
Let me just say that if there is ever a time to make your asshole-footprint as large as possible, this is it. The world needs more assholes like you, who are willing to stand up for what is right.
I've commented about this before, but I truly enjoy your blog, and it really makes me so happy to see someone (someoneS, really) who appreciates and loves Detroit like you do - those people are few and far between these days. I hope you will continue to document the happenings of your family, in whatever way you feel is best for you and yours. Thank you for letting us all be a part of your life.
I have read every comment here and on the flickr link.
I work for Babble in a very small capacity and genuinely love working there.
I've never been asked to do anything wrong (not that I would).
I agree what they did was wrong.
I see all the steps they are taking to rectify the situation.
I see the apologies being made.
I would feel the same way had it been Thomas' or Dylan's that had been stolen.
(I'm saying all this shit so I don't get flamed here because I really do see how wrong this was.)
With all due respect, short of turning back time and doing things right all along, what could Babble/Nerve do NOW to fix everything?
What would make everything right again?
I ask because I have made many mistakes in my life, in my work, with my kids, with my husband, and I know that shitty pit-of-the-stomach feeling I get when I'm wrong and all I want to do is make it right.
I want this righted for all parties involved and any further anger or outrage seems counterproductive to me.
So tell me, how do we fix this, as a blogging community?
Karen
xo
what you're asking, karen, is an old question: when your credibility has been severely compromised, how do you get others to trust you again?
There is no easy answer, or easy fix. Babble is simply going to have to figure out a way to prove to us that it is capable of acting like a better corporate (and blog) citizen.
let me get this out of the way- i don't think any of the writers/artists who are hired to work for that site are in any way related to this current situation.
so...am i the only one who smells something funky here? who else ever worked in advertising- not a fuckin chance do you draw a paycheck in one of the biggest ad cities in the world and not know about basic ownership rights for images/creative. no, sorry, just not buying it. i mean, really, there is NO WAY i believe that this happened by accident! come on! especially when that company has done it more than a few times before? SAY WHAT?
am i the only conspiracy theorist that imagines a way to stir up some shit and boost ratings would be to steal a photograph from one of the most-familiar to their audience hipster-indie-parent-blogs and see where the road takes them? i mean, publicity is publicity, people. look at all of us spending so much time talking about this whole thing. i can only imagine their stats have exploded the past few days if for nothing else than curiosity.
i am always so willing to give people the benefit of the doubt- but this is not that time.
You're my hero, Dutch.
FWIW, I ran into a perv myself, only with pictures of my pregnant wife: http://crazybob.org/2005/09/flic...cence-
lost.html
They've updated Strollerderby with this issue. Whining about how 'the apology was not accepted'.
They've made themselves look twice as petulant. What, they think people will respond to a SD post with "You go Babble!"?
Dutch,
I think it stinks that Babble used your photo without permission. I also think it stinks that you are forced to take down/protect your photos. I've really enjoyed watching Juniper grow up and want you to know that I love your blog. Best wishes in finding peace with the situation, however that comes about.
MCC
I had actually pitched to SD the week of/before this controversy (it was a long shot--I expect being based in Arkansas rules out "hip" in the minds of most NYC folk) If they can restore their credibility after this fiasco, my interest still stands. I think they have a talented pool of writers, some of whom I am friendly with and whose company I'd be proud to keep.
Beyond the unconscionable infringement of copyright, what has been really unfortunate about this whole debacle is how Babble has continued to drill more holes in their boat with their defensiveness and awkward attempts at damage control. It has only made them appear more arrogant and unapologetic as a result, even towards those of us who are inclined to be sympathetic.
I thought Ada Calhoun issued a very nice and thorough apology. There were flaws in it, which you spoke to. I think it would have been smart for her to simply continue to apologize, outline amends, and let you and your community vent for a while.
When corporate (small c or big C, whatever) stepped in, this became a case study in how NOT to handle a PR crisis in Web 2.0.
Every word that has come out of, or on behalf of, Babble since has smacked of defensiveness. It's like the apology "i'm sorry you feel that way", or "I said I was sorry, what do you want from me?"
Well, we're parents. We've been scared and angered, and we want them to be sorry for a while while we are still coming down from scared and angry and waiting to see whether they can be trusted again.
They really need to get everyone on one message: we're sorry and it will never happen again. And they need to accept that they will probably have to repeat it over and over until they are believed.
I love assholes like you.
I agree with your thoughts on this and this is that the type of things where the asshole footprint needs to come out. I was curious and went to your flickr site and noticed where you said you can't right click and save your photos. So I tried it. I could still right click and save a photo. So I don't know what the correct setting would be to prevent that, but I don't think it is set.
Sometimes people need to take a step back and breathe before saying nasty, below-the-belt things to each other (Mc-D). Dutch, you're a parent and were so in the right here. As a parent I would do anything and everything to protect my little people. Thank you.
Well Dutch - time will tell, right? I hope it all ends well and that we all take away an experience that makes us better. I know I've learned a few things on both sides of the fence.
Karen
xo
As I was reading this thread and the one on flickr, I got really pissed off, particularly by the comment that you are doing this for money. In the comment thread on the Watching Gene Kelly post, I mentioned I phrase I had read on a bumper sticker, but that I had no idea was attributed to someone. You immediately responded, saying that you believed it to be a trademarked phrase of metrodad. Now, you clearly had nothing to gain in that exchange. You weren't going to get some check in the mail because you made sure the phrase was properly attributed to its author. You just seem to honestly care about intellectual property and intellectual property law. I guess you're an "asshole" because you care too much, particularly about those silly things called principles. People who don't care about principles can let things go easily, can allow themselves to be bought off with a check or to seethe in silence and allow the same afront to happen to someone else. So if caring deeply and being principled make you an "asshole", when then I wish there were a whole lot more "assholes" in this world.
daisy, you can right click and save an image, but it should be spaceball.gif. If you open it, is it the photo or a tiny transparent image?
I'm sorry - I thought stealing was wrong. I guess I was mistaken.
Whether or not you think Dutch puts too much information about his daughter on the internet has nothing to do with that they did.
See, I know right and wrong and I'm not even a lawyer. Just your common garden variety asshole.
Ooops, that should say "what they did." Not "that."
All this overreaction actually makes me want to stop visiting you, dutch, more than it makes me want to stop visiting Babble. I've been a big fan of yours for a long time now, so the fact that I'm not siding with you here surprises even me. Sure, Babble did something wrong, but was it worthy of a full-on war? Seriously? No one has actually been hurt here, least of all Juniper.
As a former lawyer, you already know that this happens all the time -- to my child, to yours, to countless others'. You're not going to change anything by burning bridges and creating sides. Interns will continue to make mistakes, and editors will continue to lie and steal if they can get away with it. The practice hasn't come to grinding halt now that it's happened to a popular blogger, and it won't, unfortunately. That doesn't mean it's not worth a fight, but your reaction was worse than the actual offense. You had a choice to be reasonable and get it solved, or be an asshole and make it worse. I credit you for acknowledging that you've been a jerk about this, but I'm disappointed that so many people are proud of you for it. This is not the little guy vs. the faceless corporation, as it's been painted. It's the corporate lawyer vs. the corporation, and that doesn't change because the former is a father.
Your comment about the Trillins was lovely.
Who doesn't want what Bud and Alice had? Who doesn't agree that they raised a wonderful family?
It can be done in the public eye. With grace and class and joy.
And you are doing it with all of those things.
Minor quibble about something, Dutch. I think it's a little disingenuous to say that "Corporations have invaded this purespace, whether we like it or not." I don't really think it was an invasion, with big corporations dragging bloggers off kicking and screaming to force them to put ads on their sites or write for a corporate site.
The corporations "are in Sweet Juniper!(TM)'s header and sidebars" because you greenlighted it. I don't think there's anything wrong with making money off a blog (though there is an irony in seeing kids' TV shows advertised here), just like I don’t see anything wrong in corporations sponsoring exhibits at the Smithsonian, which happens here in DC quite often.
Babble clearly pushed the corporate role to a new level, by articulating the type of parent it targets - or the type of parent its target audience aspires to be - and, ipso facto, commodifying all its writers (or at least all it blogs, columns and articles) as fitting that mold, the dreaded - or envied - 'hipster.' And while I'm sure they have made some very lucrative offers to their writers, I think it gives Babble way more credit than it deserves to pretend that it has forced any of its writers into their jobs. The people who write there (especially now, after it's been up and running for, what, a year?) know what they're signing onto, the same way that you knew what you were signing onto when you hooked up with Federated Media.
When you focus your ire at Babble, I think you need to realize that means you're focusing in some small way on the writers who said "yes" (when they just as easily could have said "no") to being a part of Babble.
Long time reader and lover of Sweet Juniper here. I've been stewing over this incident for the last 24-hours, watching it unfold. I'm glad Babble got caught stealing in such a high-profile way. I'm guessing it won't happen "accidentally" again.
I've been hesitant to post, because there *is* something about the way the backlash has turned that has made me uncomfortable. And it comes from the voices on here who are writers for Babble, who are speaking up because it's *their* jobs that are really being threatened with all of this. I hear the fear in their comments, and it makes me deeply sorry.
Because, yes, Babble is propelled by the work of a pre-existing community of writing parents, and the power behind Babble is in the talent of its writing staff. But let's face it, not every member of that writing staff is getting revenue from their own blogs from Less Evil Corporations like... McDonalds, and maybe writing at Babble allows those people their own leisure of working from home, the way that their blogs do not.
So, while I see the wrong doing here, it doesn't seem to me as clear cut a situation as this thread makes it out to be. If, let's say, Babble folds, who *really* loses???
I do feel very uncomfortable about that as well, Sarah. I e-mailed just about everyone on Strollerderby's payroll individually before any of this went down to let them know I was sorry this might affect them in any way.
But I do question your logic. Let's say Wal Mart---or any corporation---does something incredibly unscrupulous. There are people at the top making vast amounts of money exploiting the labor (or talent) of the individuals they pay as little as possible to keep producing a product or service. those individuals depend on the money they earn from the corporation to pay their bills, feed their kids, and keep up with their mortgages. But what the corporation did was legitimately wrong. Do you not address that wrong and attempt to get that wrong changed just because of some remote risk that it might affect the jobs of those at the bottom? By that logic, Ford never would have needed to address the Pinto.
This is in response to cst's comments.
I think it's tricky to make arguments along the lines of "This is not the little guy vs. the faceless corporation, as it's been painted. It's the corporate lawyer vs. the corporation, and that doesn't change because the former is a father."
I'm not sure what this means. Would Dutch's response have been more admirable if he had never worked as a corporate lawyer? Does it matter that he has the knowledge and ability to drum up legitimate legal threats without having to pay out tons of cash to an attorney to do so? The sense I have been getting from the comments here and on flickr is that the other "legitimate little guys" who have been in the same situation that Dutch found himself in were pretty helpless to invoke any kind of credible threat to Babble that would have either adequately compensated the victim or changed Babble's behavior. Sometimes, there is a need for someone to act like a knowledgable, threatening asshole. Also, he's not a corporate lawyer at this point - he has that training, sure, but he's using his own time and resources, not the resources of a corporation.
And to say that no one has been hurt takes a kind of limited view of what "hurt" means. True, no one has suffered any broken bones. But, to take something that does not belong to you and does belong to someone else, to use it for your own monetary gain, and then to offer an arbitrary price for the thing after you've been caught using it? In that situation it sounds like Dutch (or anyone who has been in his position) has suffered the following harm: the loss of control an image that belongs to him, and the loss of the ability to enter into fair negotiations for the cost of using the image, if he chose to allow it to be used.
This is not to say that I personally would have acted the same way that Dutch did. I get pretty uncomfortable with conflict, and tend to feel terrible when I am in a direct confrontation with someone. I probably would have quietly seethed and done nothing. That said, I do find it admirable that Dutch can get all bent out of shape over a "single leaf". It sounds like this is not his favorite quality about himself, but the fact that (1) he can do it, (2) he is doing it selectively, on behalf of himself and similarly wronged but largely voiceless people, and (3) he is documenting his behavior self-critically and opening himself up to the criticism of others is pretty effing awesome, I think.
I don't think my logic is flawed, dutch, as I'm not saying that you shouldn't address the wrong. I did say that I was glad Babble was caught. I certainly think you did right in making them squirm, and I do hope that by making this so public, you HAVE changed their habitually less-than-ethical tendencies to squelch. I think you have.
This doesn't change the fact, however, that the people who really pay are the ones whose jobs are "at the bottom", and I'm not sure the risk that they'll lose them is so "remote" if Babble loses its consumer base. I think it's probably very real.
I guess what you are implying (big picture-wise) is that the sacrifice of a few jobs is for a greater good. Maybe. But it certainly sucks for those who get stuck in the middle, for the people who depend on writing for Babble (a pretty sweet gig, I'm sure) to avoid the 9-5 grind. Who gets to be accountable for that?
I guess the people who went ahead and used stolen images many times have the potential loss of jobs over their heads.
Perhaps Rufus, whose response to the issue has been lame and defensive, can take that heat as well.
Those are the people who are accountable. Not the wronged party(ies).
Dutch,
Thank you for posting this. Though I should already know to protect my work on Flickr, I think your list at the end--clear, short, concise--was especially helpful. Since you first posted the screencap on Flickr, my friends and I have been discussing the possibility that our work could be stolen and/or uncredited in a similar manner (we are all art students so have less "experience" in the "business"). Calling my sister's husband for legal advice because my photograph was lifted from Flickr or my websites is at the bottom of my list of things to do today.
What Babble did was unethical--there is no way around it, and it's ridiculous to think that an editor would make the mistake that the photograph was creative commons. Stealing from Flickr is lazy and the excuse is a cop out. I don't know how seriously the general public takes Nerve/Babble, but if the people behind the websites want to, I'd like to think these people would behave in a becoming manner and act like real editors.
(Sorry, the dual career path gets me fired up.)
Finally, I'm glad no one has a binder of my assholery. I've been a jerk twice this week already, I'd be lucky if the keeper of my behavior was too busy to keep up...With any luck my mother will bypass this post and never thinking of making her own.
Thank you again!
Capt.
Sarah said:
I guess what you are implying (big picture-wise) is that the sacrifice of a few jobs is for a greater good. Maybe. But it certainly sucks for those who get stuck in the middle, for the people who depend on writing for Babble (a pretty sweet gig, I'm sure) to avoid the 9-5 grind. Who gets to be accountable for that?
...
Babble is! Let's say I work for an employer who risks losing its consumer base through either unethical practices or incompetence, knowing or unknowingly their business practices fit this description. I have no idea of this, of course not, or I wouldn't work for them anymore. And one day their shadiness or ignorance is discovered and called out. And the bottom falls out and the business goes bust. And I lose my job.
Say all that happens.
Who is accountable? Is this really a question? The only way it's not a question is if you believe that the discovery and resulting attention has been unfair, and in this case, it sure doesn't seem that way.
Let me just say that I don't *need* my job at Babble and I'm insulted to be told that I'm afraid to speak out. My previous comments were carefully worded to hopefully avoid further fuelage of the fire here in Dutch's comments.
Anyone that knows me well, knows I don't like being labeled, so Sarah, your opinion of me, as a Babble writer, is wrong (though you are more than entitled to it). I speak out when I see fit and if that jeopardizes my job (which I guarantee it won't), so be it. I work there because I like working there. No fear here, sweetheart.
The ridiculous notion that Babble will fold as a result of this relatively tiny blip on the vast space that is the internet, is hilarious to me. No offense Dutch, but I'm am more than sure that our parenting community of bloggers of which we both belong to, is a lot smaller than we sometimes think. We're "famous" (ugh - I hate that word) among *maybe* 50,000 people, and I'm being generous with that number.
I see both sides and as a mother, I'm pissed off at what they did, but as a clear thinking person and one who has seen and read every single thing that has gone on, I'm not about to fly off the deep end either.
This situation lost some control in recent comments and while Dutch still has every right to be angry, I do believe that each and every nasty commenter needs to put down the gas can.
The only thing that is going to alleviate this situation is for Babble to stick to their policies, (including new ones that puts checks in place) and TIME.
For the record, I'm not saying Dutch needs to "get over it," I'm just saying everyone needs to calm down and see the facts behind the emotions.
Behind the scenes, I know how upset the main office is, how sorry, how much work they have plowed though to make things right, AS THEY DESERVED TO. This whole thing is incredibly frustrating to watch as a bystander who can see both sides crystal clear.
Maybe Rufus and Ada aren't the best at being the fire extinguishers, but at least they put their necks out there ~ they could have said nothing, hoping it would all go away. The sentiments were there, and no matter what they had written, it would have been torn apart by people. (As I'm am SURE someone will do with this comment, and we are all entitled to our own opinions.)
I won't defend their actions, but dammed if I'm going to sit by and listen to this bullshit that they are the big bad company and we are just a bunch of robot writers who will stop at nothing to hang on to our jobs.
Not only is that whole thing counterproductive, it's completely off topic. The topic at hand has been addressed by both sides effectively and I don't know about everyone else, but I've learned a few things and hope that we can all walk away with some knowledge about how to better protect ourselves and our families online.
And break.
xo
Karen
Dutch - sorry, late to the dance. Babble's pretty adept at pinching all sorts of stuff, it seems.
"Strollerderby - the mother of all parenting blogs"
Hmmm...sounds familiar...now where have I heard that before....
Oh, yeah. http://weblogawards.org/2005/11/
...renting_blo.php
Scroll down a bit to my entry on DadCentric.
@ Jason: ok couldn't keep quiet for that one. Jason, tell me you don't think that Babble found some obscure comment you posted in 2005, changed it slightly, and came up with The Mother of All Parenting Blogs? Blahhahahahaha!!! oh you poor dear.... do you see any black helicopters over your house right now?
middlest/megan,
A clarification:
Dutch's reaction would not have been any more admirable had he never been a lawyer -- it was rude and overly aggressive regardless of his past. What I was getting at was that he uses phrases like "my little girl" to pull at our heartstrings while simultaneously threatening legal action against Babble as though this weren't an emotional issue, but purely a copyright infringement one. He has admitted that he wouldn't be as upset if the theft was of one of his generic graffiti pictures, even though that would constitute the same legal misstep this one has. His response was fueled primarily by papa-bear rage, which so many Sweet Juniper readers can relate to, and the rallying behind him is more a result of that common denominator than it is anger at copyright infringement. But in objective terms, this was a picture that was stolen and misused. It's gone now. Babble was wrong, so wrong. They've done it before, and they're still wrong. But the picture is gone. The only record of it is on dutch's own flickr account.
So I stand by my statement that no one was actually hurt here: Dutch confesses to a penchant for revenge purely when someone is a dick to him, and if he "suffered" loss of control and etc., that's still not being hurt. He doesn't write this post as though he's been hurt; he writes it as if he's angry and wants Babble to pay. Ideally, a lawyer isn't so emotionally invested in his/her cases.
I would disagree strongly with your assertion that we ever need someone to be an asshole, knowledgeable or not. Threatening someone until s/he complies with your demands doesn't do anything to change the behavior -- that's just Parenting 101. It takes a lot more restraint to be reasonable, but it doesn't take more time. That picture could have just as easily been removed had he asked politely but firmly. I don't speak naively here: I wasn't joking when I said this has happened to me and my child, too. If you treat the offender with respect, from human being to human being, you'll get a better response, and you'll have the opportunity to build from there. Instead, what we have here is a bunch of defensive Nerve/Babble people vs. a bunch of indignant SJ readers, the latter boycotting the former as though this were the faceless corporation vs. the little guy. It's not that.
Finally, I, too, gave dutch credit for acknowledging that this asshole footprint isn't something he's proud of. It takes courage and self-awareness to open yourself up to criticism, and I will commend you for it here again, dutch. What I don't respect is that you weren't able to grab hold of yourself in the midst of it all. What I wish hadn't happened is this indignant support circle that does nothing but create fires bigger than the sparks.
Thanks for the Flickr tips - I'll be revising and making changes this weekend, just in case.
I think it might be a little premature to call yourself a failed lawyer. I'd say you're a great writer with a law degree, and there's a lot left out there to do with your life.
Thanks for offering your stories and building a little on-line community of like-minded parents. Your mom may not get it, McD may not get it, but the rest of us do and we're glad you're here.
wow, a few drops of blood in the water and everyone starts biting the hell out of each other.
Ariel - eh, you're probably right, and I was only half-serious. Still, I used to write for Babble, and have firsthand experience with Ada's assholery. Honestly, there's nothing I'd put past an editorial team that would repeatedly steal material and put the blame on an intern when they got caught.
and dutch: I have to say i've been enjoying this argument. but now it's starting to reek of a personal vendetta. what is your beef with babble anyway? really? you started out with the noble and understandable mission of protecting kids as it relates to photos on flickr. in subsequent posts your anger is redirected at other areas of Babble: the ceo or whoever the execs are, the writing (suddenly, now that a writer has pissed you off). in both arguments you cite the opinion of "many", and yet I have yet to read any credible back up, just vague "alleluias" and gripes that seem pretty normal for any media outlet. but, this is better than CSI and I for one want to know: what is your REAL argument?
cst- what I think you're saying is that this whole mess has been unfair to Nerve Media and a poor showing of my character for me to "want babble to pay." That may be true. Since this thing started, my e-mail has been flooded with ex-nerve and babble employees and writers ranting and complaining about the company and its arrogance and unethical practices. That surely has colored my impression of Nerve---like the red lights that go off when dating someone who has a brutal, factious history with all of his/her exes. I can't deny I have let that affect me.
At the end of the day, I don't want people who enjoy Babble to stop reading Babble. I am 100 percent convinced that Babble has learned its lesson on this front. But if you can think of a better way (1) to have made Nerve truly recognize the mistake it made and ensure that it will not happen again, given a track record of similar mistakes and promises; and (2) to deter other corporations who may be inclined to make similar "mistakes" in the future; and (3) inform parents about the technical aspects of flickr they can use to protect photos of their children, well, I will bow to your superior wisdom.
Dutch -
Have you checked out this latest expliotation of children from Flickr?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sar...os/sarahsmile1/
Orkut is another source taking photos from flickr and using them very inappropriately. I thought maybe you should check for Juniper's photos. I know this is sickening for all of you out there that have flickr accounts, but I just thought it would be only right of me to let you know people are doing this and it's way worse than imagined.
Take care...
god help me that i'll be accused of the black helicopters.
am i the only one who notices that the calendar indicates the end of a fiscal quarter this week? and that a nice fat jump in stats for any site that has ads would effect ad cost and revenue for the following quarter, fiscal year, etc.?
i think the idea that this issue would fold that site is probably the exact opposite of what the intention was in the first place.
again, i'm not talking about the sub contracted creatives here- i'm talking about the folks at the top who make the financial decisions.
ok, i'll go back into my foil-lined cave now.
is it orkut the entity using the photos or individual users taking the photos? there's a difference between a misguided user doing something like that and a business or company taking the copyrighted image of a child and associating that with content that has nothing to do with that particular child and profiting from it.
on a side note - when i was living in england i was pleasantly surprised to see that photos of celebrities and their children had the faces of the children blurred out so they were unrecognizable. on the other hand, when i returned to the states, i was shocked to pictures of the beckhams children plastered all over the place. i never knew what they looked like until the family moved to the states. i guess the difference in how the media in the two countries handles images of children was particularly striking.
also, regarding this:
But if you can think of a better way (1) to have made Nerve truly recognize the mistake it made and ensure that it will not happen again, given a track record of similar mistakes and promises; and (2) to deter other corporations who may be inclined to make similar "mistakes" in the future; and (3) inform parents about the technical aspects of flickr they can use to protect photos of their children...
i sent an email earlier outlining how this could be accomplished. the site i mentioned also has a page for flickr where you could bring up the issue and share how to protect your photos
Eh, to be honest if I stopped reading Babble it wouldn't be because of the photo stealing (now that they promise it won't happen again) but because all of the writers who have shown up here (or posted about it on Babble) have sounded like such defensive assholes. Why not just let the editors handle it? Why be all, wah-wah, I am a poor little mama or papa why are you hurting me so?
I am finding this whole discussion fascinating. I just hope that all these people who are so OUTRAGED about this issue never downloaded a song from Napster. We used to run a website called stopnapster.com and talked a lot about intellectual property and the artists rights and just copyright law in general. Jeez, the abuse we took over that was astonishing. Apparently, plenty of folks thought it was OK to "share" songs without paying for them because "THE MAN" was already too rich. We were basically VILIFIED for our stance. We were told to "grow up" because this was the digital age and we had to "get used to it".
Anyway, I find it refreshing that so many people have apparently changed their minds on the issue. Or have they?
There are two things that I truly enjoy about the world of blogging: (1) the great sense of community it engenders, and (2) the indisputable right for anyone to freely express THEIR opinion on their OWN blog.
Continue to read Babble if you'd like. Continue to read Sweet Juniper if you'd like. However, at the end of the day, SweetJuniper is Dutch's blog and he can write anything the fuck he wants.
In all honesty, I've enjoyed reading all the comments here. I find the debate refreshingly even-keeled and am pleasantly surprised that people have been able to debate the issue intellectually withour resorting to personal attacks (for the most part.)
However, the thing that is pissing me off is how people are criticizing Dutch for what he wrote and accusing him of having ulterior motives. How dare people "judge" him and his reactions? Most of you don't know Dutch personally (any more than you think you know any other blogger.) To pass judgment on him based on his writing here is not only absurd but also foolish.
At the end of the day, it's his site and he can write whatever the fuck he wants.
Did he overreact? Maybe. Maybe not. As a father with a daughter the same age as Juniper, I'll tell you one thing; there are very few things stronger than a parent's natural urge to protect his children. Personally, I'd be fucking furious if someone appropriated photos of my daughter and put them on a corporate site. Like many other commenters here have mentioned, I'd probably go apeshit and handle the issue a LOT less diplomatically than Dutch has.
As the philosopher Tupac Shakur once rapped, "Is it a crime, to fight, for what is mine?"
Ok, enough "Babble-ing" for me. The scotch is starting to kick in and the Mets are down 3-0 in the 7th.
Peace and love, kids.
you let their advertisers know what scum they are?
Well Dutch, I think you have a fairly good understanding of yourself!
It will all be okay. When you publish the most intimate details of your family life, you should expect this to happen.
Peace.
I've never read Babble, and it is *definitely* the comments of the writers that ensure I'll not hurry to start. I'm sorry if folks lose work because the company that they work for can't bother to operate in an ethical manner, but chances are they'd rip you off too if they could get away with it.
And I am saying this as a person who has NEVER used Napster, and has gotten 100% of her music by ripping CDs or buying from iTunes. Wthically I am in a good place, I think. My own asshole footprint is pretty big, though, and I keep my own feuds documentation (oh, good times!), so I was naturally inclined to accept Dutch's well-written anger as completely rational.
First, it's very unlikely Babble would fold over this. Other companies that have done much worse either weather it or fold and come back in some other form to carry on. Second, the writers who are defending Babble seem like they are doing so not for the honour of the company, but rather to alleviate their guilt/shame for not quitting Babble like some others have done. Third, to imply that these writers would have their livelihood taken away, like they'd be on welfare if it weren't for Babble, is an insult to their talent is it not? If the writers are good and they have a loyal fanbase, they could take their work to one of the many other media outlets...or even better start their own creative collective where something like this would never happen.
The world needs more assholes with heart.
Dutch,
Drgh. So dismayed to read what happened. Yours is the only blog I often read aloud ...
I've been an Internet editor in some capacity for nearly eight years. I've worked for a scrappy startup full of interns and green staffers as well as a news site generating all kinds of traffic. I know how frantic the pace can be ... However, in all my years in online publishing, I've never experienced a photo "slipping through" like that. That's not to say mistakes don't happen -- lord knows I've made lots of bone-headed ones. But usually there's some kind of editing/design process that's followed with the kind of art they used of Juniper.
Hopefully it won't happen again ...
I am not sure if you were provided this link already.
This is the Flickr group that shows other photos that have been stolen and altered:
http://flickr.com/groups/nofakes/
If quitting being a lawyer helps you become the kind of person you want to be, I'd say that's less "failed professional" and more "successful life."
Also, Calvin Trillin is hands down my favorite essayist; his writing has enriched my life and I am grateful for it. I love that you use him as an example of good writing and his daughter as an example of the kind of person we all want to raise kids to be.
You have every right to be outraged. Good for you and THANK YOU for putting on your asshole suit and making this known.
I know that everyone is more than ready to move on, but I've nipped back in to say, after all the (mostly) valuable dialogue & debate this fiasco has sparked across the board, I think it's time parent bloggers began to look seriously at forming some kind of dues-paying association to help us leverage legal and other advocacy regarding safety and copyright issues like this. Maybe it could be nested within Blogher, even?
I'm going to leave this comment in several places where this is an ongoing topic.
The problem with the communal lawsuit fund idea is that IP and copyright infringement litigation doesn't really work like small claims court, being that it's a federal arena and all. But Dutch can speak better to something like that. Maybe somebody at Babble should write an informative article...
The Virgin Mobile story is actually different from Dutch's. He specifically reserved all rights to the photos and they were used anyway (from a screen grab). Virgin Mobile used a photo that was marked at Creative Commons attribution. If you look at any photos of the the advertising, they are actually attributed to the photographer's Flickr account.
Now, the girl in the photo may not have wanted her image to be used in an advertisement or shared under creative commons, but that's a different story. Her "friend" is the one who put the photo up and he, I believe, left it as Creative Commons attribution only.
By the way, Dutch, I'm glad you defended yourself. Good job.
It's his blog and he'll cry if he wants to
Spaz if he wants to
Scream if he wants to
You might freak too if it happened to you...
No matter who you work for (a company, yourself, THE MAN, your kids)...no matter what you do in life...the simple fact of the matter is that you cannot ever correctly ASSUME how you would act in a scenario that makes YOUR hairs on your arms stand on end. It is straight up ignorant to say "I'd never do that" or "I'd never say that" when you have no real clue what you'd do when something comes along that for whatever reason raises your hackles. Maybe for you, a stolen pic *apology offered or not* is enough to raise your hackles. Or maybe for you, not a whole hell of a lot would ever give you pause. Maybe you're hackles cannot be raised that way. Maybe not much can make you feel like you had the urge to write something to stir the pot in a forum where anyone can stop on by and watch you stir it.
But to claim that someone is _insert label here_ for stating how he/she feels about a personal situation (especially one THAT YOU HAD NO DIRECT PART IN) does not do anything but prove that you are ignorant and incapable of really admitting you have no freaking clue how you would react.
Dutch: You have to be yourself, no matter what the naysayers may say...without following someone else's blind assertation of what should be done. You have every right to say what you want, feel what you want, proceed how you want, without anyone telling you how or when or why you should or shouldn't be upset or asshole like. Whatever man. You be you. It is our duty to pass this energy on to our children in a society where lemmings make the headlines.
Babble and associated peeps of Babble: You also have to be you, no matter what anyone else from the outside may think. No one may know the inner workings of your company, or the bullshit lies conjured by disgruntleds, or what is true or not true. You are the ones (or the company) to lay down on your pillows at night and ask yourselves if you've done the honorable and right thing each and every day. If you have and people are slinging shit, it can only affect you if you let it. Your company will come through on top as honoralbe. If you can look at your past as a company and decide upon the need for corrective action, have the balls to make it happen and not just in words but in action.
All I know is that for me, the way I try to live my life is often centered around this: the notion that I might never ever really know what it's like to be that guy over there or that woman I call my mom...and that really gives me pause enough in most situations to find enough empathy to realize that justification for an emotional outpouring or reaction to a situation might not be necessary just because I don't understand it.
And please do not email me just to be mean just because I accidentally left my email out there cuz really, I'm so over that.
I disagree msmelle, most people have the ability to imagine themselves in many situations. I have never had anyone use pic's of my child like Dutch did, but I can certainly imagine myself in that situation, plenty enough to get "stir'd up" about it. It is called vicarious, check it out. I am not really sure what your "point" is if there is one. However, you're use of slang and profanity seems to indicate to me it is perhaps YOU who can't seem to express themselves, not us. When the bong smoke fades I think you may agree.
That sucks for you, but thanks for the heads up.
Sweety oh sweety how mature of you to ASSUME I must be high to have said the things I said and to act as if I'm somehow ignorant in my understanding of empathy. If you read my comment again, you might notice I never said people lack the ability to imagine themselves in many situations nor did I assume anyone was inept at expressing themselves.
My point, that I made several times, was that one can never assume to know how he or she might act in an emotionally charged situation until he or she is in that situation himself or herself. (notice I didn't say THEMSELVES cuz ya know, I would have to be high to say something like that).
Of course you can imagine yourself in any situation and imagine how you might act, but you never really know how you WILL act until you are knee deep in it...so it might be a bit easier for people to stop judging, mind their own asshole footprints and do what they do as they do it. I'm in support of Dutch, his actions, how he chose to handle things and chooses to handle anything affecting him and his own. That was my point (which if no one else got it, he did).
Sorry for the profanity...cuz ya know...I know Dutch is not the kind of asshole who would swear.
Looks like Dutch has a stalker.
Wow she is high strung don't mess with her man.
Well, it appears Dutch is all you are concerned with. As long as he got it I guess that is all that matters *stomps feet, walks away*
wow. you actually mocked someone for attending law school at night? on the one hand, i have to give it to you for admitting it, but on the other hand, I think I have to take you off my links list. elitist mocking of school ranking is actually a deal breaker in this virtual world.
Sorry anon, I was really immature ten years ago.
I added SweetJuniper as a contact in Flickr, would that be enough for me to view the pics you've marked private? Hope so, I really do enjoy them, and I understand why you'd do this.
Your buddies are at it again:
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/1...f-the-
phot.html
Although its one of their bloggers and at least not an intern this time.
This issue is my personal hobby horse at the moment too: in the past few weeks alone I've had two cases of people stealing my photo from my blog and posting it on websites claiming it was a photo of them, and two eBay sellers using photos of me on their auctions. It absolutely enrages me, so I can only imagine how much of an asshole I would become about it if was a picture of a child, or anyone else close to me. Good on you for taking these people on: there's so much ignorance about copyright on the internet, and the majority of people seem to assume they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want with other people's images.
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