Comments for Battle of Ontario....
Gustavsson update: He's in Toronto this week being wined and dined by Leafs brass including new goaltending coach Francois Allaire. He's already made stops in Colorado, Dallas and San Jose.
Taking a wild guess here, I would say Colorado and Dallas are the bigger competition. How much will he actually play with Nabakov in the fold?
Toronto has a good chance on this one. Damien Cox also wonders if having Allaire should prompt the Leafs to sign Pogge for one more season to see what the coach can do with him. Why not? So long as another team doesn't make a large offer that Toronto shouldn't match. Not likely.
Also rumoured is that Toronto will make a play for Boumeester and are exploring moving up the draft into 5th to ensure they get the second Schenn. Apparently Tampa, for their 2nd pick, insist Luke Schenn is in the deal which won't happen so Tavares or Hedman are becoming pretty unrealistic.
Here's what his agents will say:
You probably have less of a chance of winning in Toronto.
But, if you want to be a bigger part of the team, and you want to be in the media a lot, Toronto is the place to be. Plus you'll probably get more sponsorship money than even if you win somewhere else. Mats Sundin never won a goddamn thing in the NHL, yet he still has legions of fans.
And if he signs, you'll get a guy who signed for all the wrong reasons. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but unfortunately it's probably true. It certainly ahs been for UFAs etc that have been courted in the past.
The Leafs should avoid wining and dining people and focus instead on getting a great goalie who wants to win and is under contract and is upset as hell to be gonig to a loser.
His agent might also mention that Toronto have a lot of young players, 3 top-50 picks coming in a week, and only $17M committed to salary past next season. It's a team that has started fresh with new players, coaches, management, and the best goaltending coach in the world. With Toskala entering his final contract year it's a team Gustavsson can be a major part of very quickly.
I think Colorado offer a very good opportunity for him in net, but they are a year away from some real roster issues and this is a team who signed Tucker and Raycroft last summer... not exactly comforting. They have Stastny and Wolski which will be a draw, and the city is great. It would be a good situation for him but any better than Toronto as far as winning? In my opinion, no.
Dallas is Dallas. They have some very good players and Turco is in the final year of his deal, so again, a good goaltending situation for him. Niewendyk might be a draw for incoming players, but he's a rookie GM so who knows how agents feel about that? I think it's a good situation if you look past the fact it's a city where hockey ranks somewhere between primary school football and lawn darts.
San Jose? I didn't realize Nabakov is entering his final contract year as well. So this situation is better than I thought for Gustavsson. Hard to argue against going there...
But Toronto has what all those teams don't, an opportunity to win a cup with an original six team. A chance to get in on a new regime, a new direction and backstop them to their first cup since 1967. If you're a competitive guy who wants the spotlight, the glory and the chance to be part of hockey history, then this is the place to come. If he's not that kind of player or doesn't believe Burke can do it, than he won't come here. No doubt Toronto must seduce with the possibilities here instead of the recent past. Since we're on the shortlist, seems it's working so far.
Going by Bozak and Hanson signing here (Bozak choosing Toronto over 20+ teams, including Ottawa) it appears that some agents like what they see happening here. Lets hope Gustavsson's is one of them.
I'm not saying 2what Toronto has to offer is bad, I'm saying that guys who choose to go there are typically not the type interested or able to win jack squat, or even terribly interested in making the playoffs.
Blake, Toskala and many, many others are wonderful case studies.
Wine and Dine is not the way Toronto will build a winner.
Luke Schenn is maybe your best player and was not really given the option. There's an example on the other extreme.
Blake, Toskala and many, many others are wonderful case studies.
Toskala was actually traded here along with Mark Bell.
Otherwise, airtight.
He extended his contract after about 3 secs, right?
That's true, he did, I forgot.
So are you telling us that Toskala has no interest in winning a cup and therefore he signed in Toronto because he liked that they had no chance?
Are you saying Sundin re-upped in Toronto because he didn't want to win a cup also?
Players sign with teams because of many things. Money, location, fans, chance of winning. Just because a guy signs in Long Island doesn't mean he doesn't want to win. Ever consider that there are only a handful of favourites every year and that they don't have room for all 700 players?
This is all pretty interesting coming from a Sens fan right now. Heatley begging to get out as we speak. When's the last time the Sens attracted a big ticket UFA anyway? Ever?
No I'm saying Toskala signed for the same reason Mats did. To sell sneakers and McDonalds and posters. DESPITE the fact that they had no chance.
Players sign with teams because of many things. Money, location, fans, chance of winning. Just because a guy signs in Long Island doesn't mean he doesn't want to win. Ever consider that there are only a handful of favourites every year and that they don't have room for all 700 players?
This is my point exactly.
This is all pretty interesting coming from a Sens fan right now. Heatley begging to get out as we speak.
Fair enough.
When's the last time the Sens attracted a big ticket UFA anyway? Ever?
All reports are that Ottawa is one of the top 'destination' places to play.
When's the last time the Sens attracted a big ticket UFA anyway? Ever?
This is not the road Ottawa takes (Ottawa actually cranks out big ticket UFAs from their system more than bringing in new ones) but they've had good success at attracting and retaining players, on their team and in their organization, typically at bit of a discount.
Toskala sells sneakers and posters and McDonalds? Who knew!
Frankly, Toskala is a bad example for your argument. He's super low key, doesn't seem to bask in the spotlight one bit, and just plays.
Jason Blake, your other example is better. He likes the attention, the ice time, and too often the puck. I think he's a guy who was more interested in the $$$ and the attention than anything else as I'm sure a real contender would have paid him $3M to play on their team but he likes the big time and he came here.
Otherwise, Kaberle signed for a discount and again isn't parading himself on burger wrappers or Much Music or whatever else you think happens here. Kubina, Hagman and Finger, all very low key guys. You don't see them doing watch commercials like Spezza or trying to choke locals like Emery.
Belak used to to a lot of radio and TV stuff when he was here. Hard to say that's what attracted him here. He was picked up on waivers after all.
Oh, and I agree Ottawa used to churn out future big item UFA's. Not for about 7 years though (excluding Spezza who was traded for). Coincidental that it stopped right after the team found some success and had no more high draft picks?
I think it's good that Ottawa now have to face the same struggles every mature club must face. It's not so easy when you're not stocked with draft picks from sucking is it? A lot tougher to build consistent solid teams without horseshoes up your ass on draft day (see Detroit).
Toskala may be keeping his head down now, but he certainly wasn't when he signed. Confirming everyone's worst fears has a way of doing that to players.
It has nothing to do with low key vs. high key. Your utility players and the guys that came up in your system are not really examples that are relevant to a discussion of why some players who Toronto 'wines and dines' as you say, would pick Toronto over, teams with better on-ice everything.
I don't begrudge you (or them) this. I just don't think it's a recipe to get the right kind of players. In fact, it might be argued it's Toronto's strengths in the 'wine and dine' side amount to a recipe to get the wrong king of players and are at least part of the systemic problems in Toronto.
The fact that Dallas is in shambles, and San Jose is probably about to be torn down probably helps TO's chances though.
Also re:UFAs Hossa was only 5yrs ago. Since then Havlat, Redden, Chara, Meszaros, Emery etc. etc. etc. These are all guys who, at least at one time, were at one time big item UFAs and most of them still have the contract to prove it.
I think it's good that Ottawa now have to face the same struggles every mature club must face. It's not so easy when you're not stocked with draft picks from sucking is it?
First pick for Sens:
15,29,28,9,23,29,16,27,21,26,15,12,1,1,3,1,2
For the last 12 years, the only real high pick the Sens have made was one they dealt for (2 in 2001).
Despite this, the Sens average draft spot over their history is about 15th. That means they are about average over that period.
A lot tougher to build consistent solid teams without horseshoes up your ass on draft day (see Detroit).
Another missed point. Detroit has traditionally actually not gone the high draft route -- by opting out. They have often dealt first round picks presumably for some combination of more developed players and a greater number of later picks. Yes Detroit has a lot of late round picks in their system, and some very good ones. That's attributable at least as much to the fact they pick more in that part of the order than others as it is great system/scouting etc.
Back to your misguided point: Yes, the Sens stock assets just like other teams (including picks) in hopes of getting and developing great players. So what? This isn't particularly unusual, and the Sens pick spot over there history certainly has not been.
The real question is, why don't the Leafs? The Sens missed the playoffs for 4 years and then became a force in the East. The Leafs haven't made the playoffs since 2004.
Hint: The answer has less to do with horse shoes than horse behinds.
But go ahead, 'wine and dine' and find the easy answers. If he's the kind of guy that responds to that, I hope you get your wish.
Jesus, I'm starting to regret saying "wine and dine"! Had no idea you would take it so literally. The kid is in town and the Leafs are showing him around the hockey operations, making a case for him to play here, and I'll bet Burke even took him and his agent to dinner. You can bet your ass Dallas, Colorado and San Jose did exactly the same thing. Ottawa woulod do the same thing too, except they don't get on UFA shortlists.
Another missed point. Detroit has traditionally actually not gone the high draft route -- by opting out. They have often dealt first round picks
Missed point? My point is that Detroit traded away high picks and the drafted Zetterberg and Datzyuk with late picks. People blow sunshine up Detroit's ass for this, but I think it's luck (hence my horseshoes point). If Det knew these players would be this good they wouldn't have picked other players before them in the draft who never even made the NHL. Toronto was this lucky with Kaberle, and Ottawa with Afraidsson. That's why there's 7 rounds in the draft - you really have no clue what you're getting with 90% of these kids.
The key is to have a lot of picks and land a few surprises. Toronto haven't done that well until this season, and that's why we have no surprises coming out of the ranks. Well, except DiDomenico, but he's not playing anytime soon...
The real question is, why don't the Leafs? The Sens missed the playoffs for 4 years and then became a force in the East.
I think we should compare. The Sens drafted 2,1,3,1,1 in their first 5 years when they were awful. Toronto in the last five years have ranked in the double digits except last season. Lets see who the Leafs would have on their team if they drafted in Ottawa's early 90's position for the last five years:
Maliki, Crosby, Toews, Kane, Stamkos.
(2,1,3,1,1)
Drafting in the top 3 is a gigantic advantage and nobody is saying that Ottawa doesn't deserve credit for holding onto those picks, but come on. It's a giant advantage compared to trying to compete in the standings as well as at the draft table. Which is why the Sens first rounders started being Patrick Eaves, instead of Alexei Yashin.
I'm sure they would include a TML tote bag filled with TML swag.
You know ,like a black and white photo of a SC parade,maybe an autographed Todd Gill jockstrap( autographed by every forward during his career that is).Perhaps there is even a pair of Squeegie's flip flops in there....Hmmm...totebag filled with leaf swag.....maybe that's what THM meant by "douchbaggery". 
Gills jockstrap signed by every forward he played against. Ha ha, so true.
Drafting in the top 3 is a gigantic advantage
Of course it is.
nobody is saying that Ottawa doesn't deserve credit
Well 'horseshoes' to me suggests luck. Winning the Sidney Crosby Sweepstakes is luck. Picking high for a few years followed by very low for 12 years is not particularly luck. Especially when talking about expansion teams. The truth is the Sens have an almost perfectly average first round draft spot.
The reason Toronto drafts so low is that they trade away picks. If you think free agents and stars from the last 5 years can be explained away by draft picks from nearly 20 years ago, then I disagree. If you think consistently turning former high picks and RFAs into marketable assets and getting additional picks/players is luck, then I disagree.
If you're not saying that, then I'm not sure what it is you're saying.
A team that has picked abnormally high? Tampa Bay is a MUCH Better example than Ottawa, with an average draft spot of about 10th over their history.
People blow sunshine up Detroit's ass for this, but I think it's luck
It's not luck.
A predictable consequence of making more picks late is that you will have more late round picks in your system, some of whom will turn out to be gems.
An average draft spot over 20 years is meaningless and doesn't come into play. I specifically said that all of Ottawa's big name players were drafted in the 90's. Since then, not one star player from your own draft position.
My point, very simply put, is that Ottawa are now an average team because their above average draft position is 10 years behind them. What comes around goes around, and all of that.
Ottawa have not drafted well or stockpiled the farm well since they stopped getting expansion handouts. It's a fact.
Toronto, as brutally managed as they were at times, were a top eastern team who never drafted in the top 10 since Antropov at #10 in 97 - until last season. It is a lot harder to build serious youth movement without those gem picks. Exciting young teams currently streaking up the ladder: Washington, Pittsburgh and Chicago - all drafted high for a bunch of years in a row. All they had to do was not fuck it up (like Long Island and Florida).
Tampa, Ottawa's expansion cousin, won a cup thanks to drafting high during the same era as the Sens. Then they sucked again and got Stamkos.
The Leafs biggest problem was JFJ not being allowed or not being willing to dismantle the team after lock-out and really suck, instead of just kind of sucking. Toronto might have a franchise center right now, and some additional exciting young players. Instead he traded picks or drafted in the low teens, which has produced Tlusty as the only good first rounder. And even he (drafted 11th), has much to prove.
Burke, unfortunately really needs to be a basement dweller for 3 seasons if he expects to draft his way to some star players. Or get damn lucky.
Since then, not one star player from your own draft position.
Spezza. Meszaros. Emery. Vermette. All guys on big name tickets. None of whom were drafted in the 90s.
Guys who might very well be in the next 3 years: Foligno, Lee, Elliot, and who knows who else?
Done.
Spezza. Meszaros. Emery. Vermette. All guys on big name tickets. None of whom were drafted in the 90s.
Spezza wasn't Ottawa's pick, Yashin was sent the other way. He doesn't count in my draft position argument. Talent for talent trade.
If you think Vermette, Emery (not even in the NHL last year), and Meszaros are big name tickets, this conversation is going nowhere. be reasonable. Havlat, Hossa... those guys are big ticket players. Chara for sure. Vermette is Alex Steen only french. Come on...
Foligno, Lee? Maybe they'll break out down the road, sure, and John Mitchell will be a Rocket Richard winner in two years too!
Spezza wasn't Ottawa's pick
Ah I see, so trading for a higher pick doesn't count, because that's lucky.
What's your point again?
f you think Vermette, Emery (not even in the NHL last year), and Meszaros are big name tickets
Meszaros certainly is. Emery signed a -huge- contract an would've been offered at least as much most other places. Has Vermette ever missed the playoffs? No. Watch how much he signs for.
So, to summarize: no picks Ottawa trade for count towards the argument that Ottawa cranks out UFAs. No pick from the 90s count, because even though the Sens made the playoffs half the time then, they were stocked with picks from sucking. And no guys picked since 2000 count, because they've all 26 or under and so can't be considered big names.
Ok, I see where you're going with this now.
Has Vermette ever missed the playoffs? No.
Seriously Gee shake your head. By virtue of being drafted onto a talented team he has made the playoffs his entire career, so far. None of his teams have made the playoffs as a result of any spectacular play on his part. He's an average guy at best who has failed to live up to expectations set early in his career. He's got some great speed but his hands can infuriate you at times. There is a reason he was expendable to get a goalie and that Ottawa never broke the bank to get him signed long term.
Thanks for your opinion DHS. If you want to pick up on one point to parse, that's a pretty good one.
He's a 26yr old at least 2nd line center making 3M/yr going into UFAdom.
He might not ever make 7M, but he'll break 4 easy, and I think that puts him in the win column. And yes, he has lots of playoff experience, and yes, that matters.
Chiming in on his hands is about as original as Muppet's points about Ottawa picking high 20 yrs ago being the reason for their success.
Vermette is a star because he's been to the playoffs a few times and Emery is a star because he got a big contract from Ottawa.
You're leaving out something about that contract aren't you? What was it...
Oh ya.
Gee, relax. We were having some decent conversations these past few days, no need to get pissed off!
I think Spezza was a trade. Call it drafting if you want, but when Yashin is traded at the draft table for the #2 pick and then they make the pick for a guy who was always going to be #2 behind Kovulchuk, it's a trade in my books. Ottawa's real pick was #23 that season. They took Tim Gleason.
I'll give you Meszaros. When you look at what Tampa paid for him and the contract they handed him it's impressive. I still think he's been just good ever since he stopped playing next to Chara and led the NHL in +/- for a while, but that's me.
Vermette on the other hand, you seem to be alone on.
The discussion was on big-ticket players, right? That Ottawa hasn't produced any for more than 7 years, and that the ones they did were from all those high picks?
Well that's plainly wrong.
Emery was a star. Even now, with all his problems, he's back with a pretty reasonable contract. More than e.g. Osgood.
Vermette is still a star and will easily break what Blake makes, and probably be much more valuable to his team.
Will he ever make Gomez money? No. So what? Is Gomez a great contract? Was Blake? Was Toskala? Was Heatley? Was Emery? Is Emery? Who knows?
Being a big ticket UFA is not the same as being a great player, it's just one of the indicators. At 26, it's a good sign of potential.
The point is Otttawa develops these guys and TO courts them from others. Hence the decision to play (pick) Toronto for intangibles. Hence the instances of guys like Blake and Toskala being massive underperformers immediately after signing.
Gee, relax.
Very relaxed, thanks.
Ok good.
You make some good points about Ottawa. We'll see what Vermette gets in Columbus and if that's a big ticket UFA contract or not.
As far as Toronto, you're kind of focused on one summer when JFJ was GM. Blake and Toskala. Blake was coming off of 40 goals and had scored no fewer than 20 in like five seasons. He's done more than Vermette ever has, and if Vermette gets the same money than the Blake deal is even better for us.
Toskala is a good goaltender with flashes of great. He's no star and he's overpaid for sure. I doubt Burke would re-sign him for anything near that money, and I wonder if he'll even re-sign him, period. He doesn't like him much, I can tell you that.
Can you really blame Burke for doing whatever it takes to get all these young UFA's on the team? We need a goaltender and this Gustavsson kid wants to play in the NHL. We have Pogge and that's it. He's trying to do something about that.
Burke inherited quite a little mess here in Toronto and frankly I don't know how you criticize him for luring Bozak and Hanson here, nor fishing for Tavares? Why not? Should he shut up and take his 7 draft picks every summer and wait it out or be proactive and go get what he needs?
We have 3 picks in the top 50 and that's shocking around these parts, so he's covering off this "homegrown" approach you admire so much. Meanwhile he's doing other things. I just don't get why that's bad?
Can you really blame Burke for doing whatever it takes to get all these young UFA's on the team?
Not at all.
I don't know how you criticize him for luring Bozak and Hanson here [...] I just don't get why that's bad?
I thinks the wrong way for Toronto to solve it's problems is by 'luring' guys that want to play in Toronto. I think that selects for the exact type of people and players that are the problem on your team in the first place.
Ok, "luring" was my word. Lets keep in mind these guys get paid the same no matter where they play (rookie contracts), so the only real pull Toronto has is Burke's sell that he's taking this team in the right direction.
Young players want to play. Toronto will give them that opportunity. Bozak wouldn't have this opportunity in Detroit and that's an advantage that Toronto has that only a few others can claim.
Burke put it best: "In a couple of years I hope none of these kids (college UFAs) want to come to Toronto because the roster is too deep and they won't have a good chance of cracking the line-up".
Lets hope so.
Commenting by HaloScan
