Comments for Battle of Ontario....
For some strange reason I'm not at all disappointed with this.....
Nothing says team player like re-upping for 6 years than wanting out in year 1 after the team broke the bank for you. Way to stick it out.
I am now decidedly feeling stabby.
Timer for the Senators to undertake a complete rebuild. Heatley to Avalanche for 3rd overall pick.
Yashin redux? I'd be pleased if we got anywhere near the return of that exchange.
Wow talk about out of left field.
Maybe it's the result of being expected to win? Coincidentally, no one ever asks to be traded from Toronto...
The Leafs will gladly take him off your hands.
Careful what you wish for.
Take a guy that demands a trade because he doesn't like the way he's coached and you're likely to get exactly what you dealt for.
Here's something to make Leaf fans shit their pants:
Murray runs with Heatly and a player package to up the draft for 1/2.
Move for picks/prospects and open up salary for Boumeester?
THM - Don't think the Isle or TB have the money to take a contract like that.
The Lightning, and most likely the Islanders, have zero interest in adding that kind of salary to their roster so a Heatley for the #1/#2 overall pick is unlikely.
Who says it'd be limited to a two team deal? Burkian activity, anyone?
Three way deals... Four way deals... ten way deals....
Don't rule anything out. Lindros got dealt, after all...
Boumeister will be a Hab on July 2.
Don't rule anything out. Lindros got dealt, after all...
In a 2-way deal.
Anything is possible, but using Heatley to get the #1 or #2 pick will be a challenge. Colorado's #3 overall pick is a more likely target. But, I think Murray still has a win now focus so he'll probably trade him for two lesser forwards.
Apparently Heatley wants to go West.
Straight up for Phaneuf or Regher?
Maybe Heatley NEEDS to leave town because he fucked with Duff.
So many questions.....
This is kind of fun, actually.
Anything is possible, but using Heatley to get the #1 or #2 pick will be a challenge. Colorado's #3 overall pick is a more likely target.
Yeah, but you're talking about a MAJOR asset, and the fact this got leaked may be a clue as to how this is gonna go.
Perhaps it was team-leaked to seek out offers before the draft.
Trade him to Phoenix!
Straight up for Phaneuf or Regher? Phaneuf maybe might be equal value but Regher? Please you must be kidding me. Either way neither of those is happening. I'd take Iggy though!
/shoot me
Jerry Iggy Speedwagon then?
@Gee, Puck Daddy suggested
Dany Heatley Shoulda Been You, Spezza
I would also accept:
Dany Heatley's Moving Fan
Dany Heatley's Complete Lack Of Desire
Dany Heatley's 4 Year Rental
Timer for the Senators to undertake a complete rebuild. Heatley to Avalanche for 3rd overall pick.
No way BM does this deal without taking at least a roster player back DJ. I can see maybe something along the lines of the trade rumour mentioned on sensbuzz:
To COL: Heatley & 9th overall pick
To OTT: Wolski & 3rd overall pick + damn fine prospect.
Phaneuf maybe might be equal value but Regher? Please you must be kidding me.
I don't see many Flames games but I was under the impression Regher was a stud D-man. Maybe not.
I don't see many Flames games but I was under the impression Regher was a stud D-man. Maybe not.
Other things you are apparently under the impression of: Alcohol.
He's good... not that good. Also if you chart Phaneuf's last 3 seasons you'll notice all the lines are pointing downwards.
Other things you are apparently under the impression of: Alcohol.
Uhhhh. OK.
No way BM does this deal without taking at least a roster player back DJ. I can see maybe something along the lines of the trade rumour mentioned on sensbuzz:
To COL: Heatley & 9th overall pick
To OTT: Wolski & 3rd overall pick + damn fine prospect.
I think you are overvaluing Heatley. Yes, he is a very good player but he isn't a franchise type player and he makes a fairly high salary. In the salary cap era players with big contracts won't generate as much in return as you might expect, especially if teams view him more as a 40 goal guy like he has been the past 2 seasons than the 50 goal guy he was in the previous 2 seasons.
I think you are overvaluing Heatley.
And I am continually wowed by the incredible bias presented in your analyses. 50 goals and consistently a top point getter in the league, 5 time all star, multiple gold medals for Canada, SC experience and extensive playoff experience, franchise records galore...
This guy is, at 28, what most people dream top picks might become. And he's signed.
People are going to have to pay handsomely for his services, just like they would for Vinny, or Crosby or Ovechkin.
People are going to have to pay handsomely for his services
We'll see.
Slava Kozlov, Todd White, Ray Whitney, Martin Havlat, Mike Ribeiro, David Krejci, Shane Doan, and Patrik Elias are among the 33 players with more points than Heatley this past season. His value isn't at its peak.
His value isn't at its peak.
Certainly not now, with the economy etc.. but then again Vancouver just paid 8.6M for a handful of terrible games from a terrible player.
Slava Kozlov, Todd White, Ray Whitney, Martin Havlat, Mike Ribeiro, David Krejci, Shane Doan, and Patrik Elias are among the 33 players with more points than Heatley this past season.
But then again you're only looking for confirmatory evidence to your previously formulated hypothesis.
That's Mickey Mouse and anyone with a modicum of common sense knows it. Hopefully a few GMs too.
I have to agree with Gee. Next to Vinny, one would have to think Heatley will be the talk of the town, trade-wise. He didn't have a great year last season and still managed to put up what Sundin did in good years. I think GM's have a longer memory than 2008 and I think he is a premier player in the NHL. He's proven it.
Plus he's the only Sen I really like so I have to back him. As hard as it is...
Pillow soft and can't take adversity? See ya.
This will be Murray's crucial summer. How he handles this trade (I am half expecting Heatley for two third liners from the Ottawa region) will mark Ottawa's franchise for the next 5-6 years.
Now, if Murray takes this as an opportunity and also moves Spezza for prospects/picks/roster...we'll be even closer to making the necessary changes.
From Eklund:
"Word is out that Dany Heatley wants Out! Amazing, but hardly surprising. Of course many teams are interested, but the early favorites (and I mean VERY early) are Toronto, Edmonton, Vancouver, LA, and St. Louis."
Favourites is just another word for "teams with $8M in cap space" I guess?
Eklund has a prediction? Amazing but hardly surprising.
Even more amazing... Toronto moved from the Western Conference to the East over 10 years ago! Ahhhh I love unfounded internet rumours. Almost as hard hitting as Senschrip.
Toronto moved from the Western Conference to the East over 10 years ago!
The rumour is when the Coyotes get moved from the Phoenix to Hamilton, they will be moved to the eastern conference with the Leafs moving back to the western conference (E2).
Slava Kozlov, Todd White, Ray Whitney, Martin Havlat, Mike Ribeiro, David Krejci, Shane Doan, and Patrik Elias
Any of those guys appear on the cover of a console game box? 
Heatley, at his best, is a top 5 player in the league. He's absolutely a franchise player. He's young, at the peak of his career, capable of not only hitting 50 goals but doing it consistently, and with current salaries being what they are, $7.5 million isn't bad. There are a lot of contracts in that range that look way worse (Drury, Gomez, Briere, Sundin, Richards).
Having said that, I agree that it will be incredibly hard to move that contract and get equal value in return without trading straight-up for another high-earning disenfranchised elite player. (It was Hossa for Heatley that got him here after all.)
What people seem to be forgetting is that Ottawa isn't obliged to trade him. He wants a change of scenery; okay, but he signed for 7 years. That's a commitment to a team, and to try and work through what issues may come. I find it hard to believe that this guy wants out because he doesn't agree with what his "role" is going to be for the upcoming season. That's easier changed than to shift the landscape to move him.
DJ, Heatley for 3rd overall this year is ridiculous. Maybe I'm overvaluing him, but there's no way that's not undervaluing. A young, top 10 scorer who can put up those numbers for another half-dozen seasons is worth more than a pick, no matter where it falls. Murray would probably rather hold on to him and try to solve whatever his issue is than take that deal.
Heatley, at his best, is a top 5 player in the league.
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
Getzlaf
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Iginla
Thornton
Hossa
Parise
Kovalchuk
Even at his best, you'd have a tough time arguing with me that he is better than any of those guys and I haven't even gotten into other positions (Lidstrom, Chara, Luongo, etc.). For that matter, he isn't even the best player on his team (Alfredsson would be). And supposedly he is asking for a trade because his teams coach didn't think he was good enough to give him the ice time he thinks he deserves.
DJ, Heatley for 3rd overall this year is ridiculous.
You need to not view this as Heatley for the 3rd overall but rather Heatley for the 3rd overall and $7.5 million in cap space. That $7.5 million can buy you a really good player or two.
Now, you could probably get more back if you took back salary, but Bryan Murray would have to determine if that is worth while. Would Ottawa be willing to include a draft pick or prospect if Colorado tossed in Hejduk or Smyth or is the cap space more valuable? Maybe I am wrong and maybe there is a stupid GM out there, but I just don't think you can trade Heatley for multiple prime time, top tier prospects. The value teams are now putting on draft picks and prospects is just too high. Just look at this past trade deadline where next to no first round picks or top prospects were traded.
BTW, the Yashin deal was really a star player (Yashin - at least in the eyes of the Islanders) for a high draft pick (which the Sens used to pick Spezza), a young defenseman with an uncertain future (Chara, who turned out to be significantly better than anyone projected he would be at the time which was probably a 5th/6th type defenseman) and a fringe player (Bill Muckalt). Now maybe the Sens could get Colorado to toss in a couple of young depth/role players or second tier prosects and maybe one of those players will turn out to be a superstar, but there is little evidence that the Senators could obtain multiple top tier prosects.
Again, maybe I am wrong but if I am please provide me an example of where a star player on a big contract was traded for multiple top tier prospects or another established great player and a top tier prospect. Thornton is another example of a star player that didn't land near what you are expecting in return.
Even at his best, you'd have a tough time arguing with me that he is better than any of those guys
No I wouldn't. And neither would anybody else.
I must agree that some people here might be undervaluing him just a tad. True the NHL today is a lot about "what have you done for me lately" but we aren't just talking about an everyday player or lunchbucket guy negotiation.
Heatley is a game changer and even though he had an off year, so did everyone in Ottawa. Heatley has demonstrated throughout his career that he is a true talent. This season was the exception, not the rule.
As for the heart that might be another issue for a guy who now is making a habbit of pulling the pin when the going gets tough. Atlanta he can get a pass, not for his deeds, but for the fact that obviously had tremendous off ice issues to face and moving was probably the best thing for all parties involved. However, now you have a guy who likes to put it in the back of the net and a team who went out and extended his linemate who dishes to him every chance he gets. Not to mention that the team has sacrificed payroll and let other players walk so that they could make him a focal point and building block. What more does he want? I'm sorry if you don't like the fact the new coach told you that you need to back check a little more.
Granted with this bombshell out there in the public eye now it might be hard to trade him, then again with a no trade clause what is the Bryan's hurry? He isn't going anywhere and it's true, compared to some of the albatross contracts out there he could be a good deal.
Unless the players coming back the other way are named Iginla or Luongo I'm pretty sure Ottawa will not come out on the winning end of this trade. They absolutely raped the Isles for Yashin. They got value for Hossa. I don't think the third time will be a charm. Just don't let him end up on the Leafs.
No I wouldn't. And neither would anybody else.
Ok, since you ignored 99% of my post, let me ask you this specific question. Of the 15 guys below, which 11 of them would you rate Heatley above (to get him into the top 5 as you claim).
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
Getzlaf
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Iginla
Thornton
Hossa
Parise
Kovalchuk
Alfredsson
Lidstrom
Chara
Luongo
I ignored the majority of your post because your point is so patently ridiculous it warrants no attention at all, except to point out just how ridiculous it is.
Ok, since you ignored 99% of my post, let me ask you this specific question. Of the 15 guys below, which 11 of them would you rate Heatley above (to get him into the top 5 as you claim).
I guess even you can't be bothered to read your posts, because you said -any- of those players back there. SO I'll pick Luongo, just because he's last on the list. Could I pick 11 others? Probably.
Again, maybe I am wrong...
Yes, I suppose -anything- is possible.
If you're going to look at comparable situations, you have to at least consider Pronger's deal, in comparable circumstances, which was for two roster players, two first round picks, and a second round pick.
It's going to go one of two ways here people...
The Joe Thornton Way
of
The Alexi Yashin Way
No middle ground.
Rangers fans are talking about Gomez, Callahan and Staal...
Oilers guys are talking a top 4 D man, top 6 forward and extras...
LA has Frolov and the fifth overall pick on offer... and Sens get more cap space...
Lots of offers here, most of them for some pretty good players.
Off season just got a little more interesting, dinnit?
If you're going to look at comparable situations, you have to at least consider Pronger's deal, in comparable circumstances, which was for two roster players, two first round picks, and a second round pick.
True, but I think most people would consider Pronger a more valuable player than Heatley, even if just because defensemen are generally considered more valuable, forget the fact that he is a Hart Trophy winner, a Norris trophy winner and a regulr Norris trophy candidate. Plus one of the first round picks was a conditional pick which the Oilers got because the Ducks won the cup (with Pronger who helped shut down Heatley and the Senators), and none of the draft picks were anything close to a 3rd overall pick. Plus, if you really want Joffrey Lupul the you can probably get him from the Flyers pretty cheap.
I guess even you can't be bothered to read your posts, because you said -any- of those players back there.
Yeah, I realize I said that but since you seemingly took the easy way out by not addressing the real issue that you believe that Heatley is a top 5 player I figured I'd make the point more explicitly but you dodged that too. You feel fine nitpicking over me saying -any- but aren't capable of defending a much more bold statement that you yourself made over the calibre of player that Heatley is.
Do you really believe that Heatley is better than Ovechkin? Crosby? Malkin? Datsyuk? Lidstrom? Iginla? He is at best the second best player on his own team and I wouldn't consider Alfredsson a top 5 player in the league. Would you?
You constantly criticize me for being biased and yet you don't have the guts to defend your own statements. Talk about hypocritical.
Rangers fans are talking about Gomez, Callahan and Staal..
The Rangers would probably give you Gomez for a bag of pucks just to get rid of his contract. This would be a horrible deal for the Senators.
LA has Frolov and the fifth overall pick on offer... and Sens get more cap space...
This would be a good deal for the Sens but Frolov is a UFA after next season so might not be a Senator for long, or at least not at his current salary.
Oilers guys are talking a top 4 D man, top 6 forward and extras...
Depending on the players it could be a good deal or a bad one for the Senators. Souray and Penner would be real expensive and not a good deal for the Senators. Gilbert and Gagner would a different story.
Datsyuk has never, not once had a 50 goal year. Neither has Crosby, or Malkin but at least they are 100pt/yr players.
This isn't even difficult.
Igilna? Please.
(Iginla either).
Right, so Datsyuk a Hart and Selke finalist (and winner from last year) who has 87, 87, 97 and 97 point seasons over the past 4 years is not better than Heatley. There won't be a lot of people agreeing with you there.
Over the past 2 seasons:
Datsyuk: 63g, 193pts
Iginla: 85g, 187pts
Malkin: 82g, 219pts
Kovalchuk: 95g, 178pts
Crosby: 57g, 175pts
Heatley: 80g, 154pts
So Datsyuk has fewer goals but significantly more points and is an immensely better defensive player, Iginla, Kovalchuk and Malkin have both more goals and significantly more points, and Crosby has significantly more points despite playing 23 fewer games. Sorry, no one is going to accept that Heatley is better than those guys. Add in Ovechkin and at best you can argue that Heatley is the 7th best forward in the league. But then Alfredsson has had more points than Heatley in 3 of the 4 post-lockout seasons and kills penalties so it is hard to ague that Heatley is the best player on his own team.
I don't know what planet you come from but those on this planet who watch and follow the NHL closely know that Heatley is not close to a top 5 player.
The same planet as everyone else on here, including Leaf fans like Muppet, who agree with me (read: disagree with you on the key points) and have stated so.
It's called Earth. Come give us a visit sometime, will ya?
I don't think Muppet called him a top 5 player better than Datsyuk, Crosby, Malkin, or Iginla but maybe Muppet can confirm or deny whether he agrees with you there.
I am not saying that Heatley is a bad player because he is not. He just isn't as good as you seem to portray him to be. He is what he is. He is a very good goal scorer with a great shot who is an OK playmaker who doesn't kill penalties or play in key defensive situations like most of the other elite level players you are comparing him to. That probably puts him among the top 20-25 forwards, not the top 5.
I didn't call him Top 5 either, doofus. You did.
I compared him with a guy like Vinny, which Muppet did too.
And then you picked guys who do completely different types of things as comparables, which shows just warped your mind is.
Sorry, you are correct, you did not say that. It was conrad.
Heatley, at his best, is a top 5 player in the league. He's absolutely a franchise player.
You just jumped in defending him when I argued against him but so be it. But you did write:
Datsyuk has never, not once had a 50 goal year. Neither has Crosby, or Malkin but at least they are 100pt/yr players.
This isn't even difficult.
and in doing so implied that Heatley is better than those guys which is at least as ridiculous.
Well I was trying to imply the comparison ins not particularly apt. But ok, so we're both ridiculous. I'm comfortable with my ridiculousness, as I must be after typing a sentence like this:
shows just warped
DJ, I get a lot of your points, especially the ones in which you talk about the relative value of prospects and cap space vs. points, and I think some of this rating of top players is contentious and debatable, but I do think you're cooking some of the numbers. Looking at Heatley's last two seasons -- which featured one of his lowest since being a rookie -- doesn't render an accurate picture of what a 27 year old player with his career numbers can produce on a team in the future.
Not only that, but the cap space is sort of a moot point. If Ottawa didn't have Heatley they'd have 7.5M to sign some players who, if they're lucky, will put up Heatley's numbers. Cap space does not, in and of itself, help you win games.
For the record, I'd rate Heatley's value above a few of those forwards, for a number of reasons:
Thornton (problems in playoffs)
Hossa (pretty comparable, might be a wash)
Parise (I presume you're only looking at this year)
Kovalchuk (terrible defensively)
Alfredsson (old)
I said "at his best" -- meaning 50 goals, 50 assists, consistent, good 2 way player -- Heatley is top 5. I don't think many people would have a hard time taking a substantial issue with that. Okay, drop him into the top 10, I still think that gets you higher than the 3rd overall pick and some cap space.
You asked me to name a scenario in which two players with big cap numbers switched teams: Heatley for Hossa. I think you could also look at Kunitz for Whitney. If it's a straight up trade it's possible.
If it turns out I'm wrong, and Ottawa can't get much in return, I think Murray tells him to suck it up and honor the contract he signed and the commitment he made to the team. It seems ridiculous to me that a player who signed a 7 year deal would ask for a trade because of issues with a coach who's been in place for 1/3 of a season.
Look who's back!
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=281380
Ottawa/Philly will be a must see game the first time out.
I said "at his best" -- meaning 50 goals, 50 assists, consistent, good 2 way player -- Heatley is top 5. I don't think many people would have a hard time taking a substantial issue with that.
Even at 50g/100pts is he still a top 10 player? I am not sure. Maybe I guess but most top 10 players play every aspect of the game. Even strength, power play, penalty kill, late in the game holding a lead, etc. Heatley doesn't get a lot of PK time and isn't asked to defend leads near as much as other star players. Is a top 5 offensive player and decent defensive player better than a top 15 offensive and top 15 defensive player? I am not sure about that.
But is his value really 50/100 which he has only done twice and not in the past 2 seasons or is it more like 40/80-90? When trading players you trade him at his value now. If I am trading for him, I'd value him as the latter and hope to get the former rather than trade for the former and risk getting the latter. Yes, maybe someone will see some added 'potential' and maybe toss in a bit more into the deal, but they aren't likely to pay full value based on his career year 3 seasons ago.
You asked me to name a scenario in which two players with big cap numbers switched teams: Heatley for Hossa. I think you could also look at Kunitz for Whitney. If it's a straight up trade it's possible.
Yes, because you are also trading dollars for dollars. You could trade Heatley for Marleau and maybe get a bit more in return. But if you are not getting salary back, as in a swap for Colorado's 3rd overall pick, then you won't get as much in return in terms of players/prospects/picks. But as I said, the cap space has value. If you are willing to take Smyth or Hejduk then yes, you could get more value directly from the trade.
Thornton (problems in playoffs)
Heatley has 10g in 34 playoff games which equates to 24 goals over 82 games which is well below his regular season scoring rate so it is not like Heatley is a stud in the playoffs.
Alfredsson (old)
We are talking about top 5 players right now or over the past few seasons so age isn't really a factor. If we are talking about trade value, that is a different story and I can assure you that Heatly is not close to being among the top 5 in trade value.
What's this bullshit about top 5, top 10, top 100?
Heatley is a proven 50 goal scorer.
That's 50 fucking goals.
50 fucking goal scorers do not grow on trees.
50 fucking goal scorers play 1st line minutes and get 1st PP unit minutes on Canadian Olympic teams.
This particular 50 fucking goal scorer started to kill penalties this season.
This particular 50 fucking goal scorer was on the ice in every late game situation in the 2007 playoff run.
This particular 50 goal scorer tied for the 2007 playoff scoring lead.
The Sens will probably lose this trade because the best player involved will not be in Ottawa.
3rd overall pick and cap space.
Get a grip.
Fuck you Muckler.
I don't think direct comparisons between top players makes sense in this context. Its like comparing the best general contractor to the best drywall finishing guy. If I need someone to do my whole renovation, I definitely pick the general contractor. If I just need a guy to mud and tape the walls, I take the drywall guy.
Datsyuk is probably one of the best general contractors in the world. I would argue Heatley is among the top 3 drywall finishers in the world.
Most teams benefit from having great general contractors. But many can benefit even more by having a specialist or two in their lineup, whether that's a shutdown defenceman or a pure goal scorer.
Murray doesn't need to sell Heatley's services as a general contractor, because that's not what he is. He just needs to find a team that really badly needs an elite drywall finisher, and the returns can be significant.
I half expect DJ to argue your point, DC, with all kudos for multiple 50 goal seasons directed to his Pizza line-mates whilst offering no similar acknowledgement to the pairings of his own elected top 15 guys.
Heatley may not even be a top 10 forward for some GM's or people on this site. You could argue it every which way but Sunday.
But that's kind of besides the point.
As far as "available" players this summer, Heatley is now best available along with Lecalvier and Boumeester and I bet 15 teams will inquire about Heatley.
Why?
The guy is well over a point per game in the regular season, is almost a point per game in the playoffs... but besides that his team Canada contributions are unbelievable and he's 28 years old and signed for 6 years. He was a #2 overall pick and he's not disappointed. Even if he's not your "franchise" type personality, his abilities are undeniable.
Also, Emery will do great on Philly. He can finally be a bad ass and be loved for it.
When trading players you trade him at his value now. If I am trading for him, I'd value him as the latter and hope to get the former rather than trade for the former and risk getting the latter. Yes, maybe someone will see some added 'potential' and maybe toss in a bit more into the deal, but they aren't likely to pay full value based on his career year 3 seasons ago.
If that's not a blindfold to the trades made NHL wide throughout the last leveral years, then wow... I don't know... wow. Do you have a TV? Radio? Internet access that allows you to read sports websites?
The last trade that made good sense for both teams at approximately equal value was Heatly/Hossa!
GMs regularly over-value players based on their potential or what they did many years ago. From the BoO you could look at the Rangers w/ Redden or the biggest overvaluation in NHL history w/ Vancouver signing Squeegie for $10M.
I agree with DC's point about Heatley being a huge asset because 50-goal scorers don't grow on trees.
I'm not yet convinced that Ottawa will necessarily lose this trade.
On a separate note, on CFRA this morning they were interviewing a Citizen sports reporter (didn't catch the start of the interview so I missed who it was). He just interviewed Heatley and basically concluded the issue was primarily about being the face of the franchise.
This reporter said that Chara left primarily because he wanted to be captain, and be the most recognizable face of the franchise. He said something like "Chara's ego is as big as the rest of thim".
Apparently Heatley also feels the Sens will always be Alfredsson's team. He'll never be revered the same way. And that guys like Fisher and Philips are viewed as the core of the team in the media, the hearts of fans, and in the locker room.
He wants his own team, so he wants out. Just like Chara.
Anshu, the digs on Chara don't jive with some of what came out after he left: The two-fer offer to Redden & Chara by Muckler (Fuck you Muckler!), Chara's g/f talking about being very upset about leaving Ottawa, etc.
I'm not yet convinced that Ottawa will necessarily lose this trade.
Neither am I. This will likely end up being a win/win because two teams will be able to address some needs with strength.
But I will be very surprised if, in the short term, the best player in the deal ends up in Ottawa.
Also, Emery will do great on Philly. He can finally be a bad ass and be loved for it.
Until the first bad goal anyways.....
Until he's caught with two underage hookers and enough cocaine to scare of Freud.
Also, any Jays fans on here: Go to MLB all-star website and vote for Hill. He's currently in 4th in voting (despite leading the league in hits and all 2B's in every offensive category).
You fill out the ballot once and then it's easy to vote all 25 times as it auto-fills the ballot (unlike NHL who makes you fill it out each time).
Takes 10 minutes and the guy deserves it. Write-in Adam Lind as well. Both of these players are deserving.
Halladay is a shoo in...
I wonder if Emery gets a rooster as part of the contract with Philly.
Anshu, the digs on Chara don't jive with some of what came out after he left: The two-fer offer to Redden & Chara by Muckler (Fuck you Muckler!), Chara's g/f talking about being very upset about leaving Ottawa, etc.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I wasn't claiming any special knowledge in this case. In fact, I had no idea about the suggestion that Chara wanted his own team. Nor did I ever get the sense myself that Chara had a particularly large ego. In fact, I thought he seemed like a nice, pretty regular guy.
I was only relaying what this sports reporter, while being interviewed on CFRA this morning, was saying as the real background behind both Chara and now Heatley wanting out of Ottawa.
Also, I'll guarantee right now that for media consumption purposes, at some point over the next few months, Heatley or someone speaking on his behalf will make a public expression of the sentiment that he "didn't really want to leave Ottawa".
Once a deal is made, one way or the other, I'd be very interested in hearing a leak about how this got leaked. That will say a lot about the player, situation, etc.
I just think that age, and being a proven commodity, factors in. Okay, fine, let's drop the premise of him being top 5, that wasn't really the point anyway, we'll only talk stats. His points in a player who is only 27 is attractive, more so, in my opinion, than a single draft pick and some cap space. Especially because you can only use cap space to overpay on the free agent market for a player who, if you're lucky, might put up stats like Heatley. It makes no sense.
Also, Ottawa already had depth problems. Replacing Heatley's guaranteed 70-100 point range seems impossible.
At this point, if I was Murray, I'd tell him to suck it up and play.
Replacing Heatley's guaranteed 70-100 point range seems impossible.
With one player I would agree but it's not all that difficult with 2 roster players coming back in return.
At this point, if I was Murray, I'd tell him to suck it up and play.
I would submit that this situation is well past that point.
Non story folks.
This reeks, to me, of bad agenting and bad advice, based on a guy with too mcu hgel in his hair repeatedly pointing to Ovechkin and Kovalchuk and Cs. They probably want a guarantee...
They haven't even lifted the NMC, which is ridiculous given these circumstances. It's like watching 'The Late Shift' as Leno's agent pushed Carson out.
If Murray doesn't trade him in the next few weeks, Heatley goes from stud to dog in the room, and the ice, as the season begins.
By the way, the reporter who made the statements regarding the similarity of ego issues for both Heatley and Chara is Wayne Scanlon. His published report is at:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Spo...9901/
story.html
I actually think Colorado's 3rd overall and Wolski would be a nice package. Wolski will be a solid 2nd liner, the Sens can then package their #9 and the #3 to Toronto for Grabovski and Kaberle, and then Ottawa go out and get a UFA forward off the market. Ottawa end up with a killer PP d-man, two young forwards, and money to spend this summer on more scoring (Cammaleri?).
Toronto then trade the #3 and #7 to Tampa for the #2, pick up Tavares, and draft Kadri with the #9 pick.
It all works for me!
Was this dream in color or black and white?
More blue and white, actually...
Don Brennan must have a crush on Heatly.
Heatley doesn't have the spine to fight through the checking done by the Penguins and Wings these days. Anyone who has watched him play can see he doesn't have the jam or desire to excel in the Stanley Cup final.
Why is it that Ottawa columnists can only be honest once a player has rejected the city and the team?
Is this an accurate list of players who have asked to get out of Ottawa?
Yashin
Havlat
Heatley
Chara
Corvo
No, Chara didn't ask to get out. He asked to stay. Havlat asked for beyond the going rate.
Brennan neglected to note that Heatly had a pulmonary contusion during the SCF against Anaheim.
I think John Baird summed it up best....."Fuck Off/You Toronto"!
It appears that in both the Corvo and Heatley cases, most or part of the reason for the trade request involves some dislike of the local media.
I confess I don't read a lot from our local papers, but I never really got the impression that our media is particularly harsh with players. Sure, some specific guys have taken heat over the years, like Bonk, Redden and Gerber. But overall, I never felt that the team was treated unfairly.
And in Heatley's case, I don't recall him ever being criticized like Spezza. Heck, even Alfredsson was under more scrutiny when he got off to a slow start a couple years ago.
Leafs have a new goaltending coach.
Still no word on whether we have a goaltender for him to coach beyond this coming season...
http://www.thestar.com/sports/ar.../article/
649030
Come on Detroit, can you win the Cup already so I can finally talk about Heatley and the Sens?
So much to say, but can't talk about a non-playoff team while the playoffs are on.
Anshu, read Don Brennan's rinkwrap post-game columns. He rips players left and right. This year it was Kuba and Heatley, last year it was Spezza, before it was Redden.
Our media are no angels. Even so, they are too soft on these guys, especially the long-timers.
All that aside...what about Burns, 1st, Mikko Koivu for Heatley, Lee + 2nd?
Ottawa's media has become absolutely brutal and reeks of desperation since the Final run, to the point of being slanderous of players and unmercifully impatient. To say nothing of offering extremely poorly written exposition and innuendo in place of hard journalism. If I were the GM the first thing I would do is limit Don Brennan and Bruce Garrioch to to 3 substantial questions per post-game, and subject them to periodic tests of hockey knowledge in exchange for their press passes. I'd also limit all Ottawa press to half the access they have now, and bring in more bloggers, who seem more aware of what's going on in the league. I honestly think that without curbing it, Ottawa's media will turn it into the Oilers.
Heh.
Conrad, the Senators are the only game in town...if you limit the media they will go back to ranting about Glenn Kulka's MMA or Phil Melansons post-baseball escapades...
And the media in Ottawa are STILL pussycats compared to the Montreal, New York or Toronto rags.
So much to say, but can't talk about a non-playoff team while the playoffs are on.
Some of us can focus on multiple things at the same time. You eat dinner during the playoffs right? Do you watch a TV show at all during the playoffs? How about work, are you able to make it in during this 8 week period, or is that to overwhelming?
Some of us can focus on multiple things at the same time.
leaf hamlet is much more experienced than Sens Fans on dealing with the intricacies of non-playoff seasons.
Really? We are? Since the Sens inception, how many more years have Ottawa been in the playoffs again? One more maybe?
The average Sens fan under 40 has seen more Stanely Cup action following their team than the same demographic from Leaf Nation.
Prior to this year, the last time the Sens missed the playoffs Windows 95 was crashing PC's everywhere and 99% of the world had no idea this thing called the Internet even existed.
Do you remember what you did before the Internet came into your house?
The average Sens fan under 40 has seen more Stanely Cup action following their team than the same demographic from Leaf Nation.
Not to be all realistic or factual on you bro, but the Leafs have given this city 44 rounds of playoffs since 1967.
21 of those rounds have been since Ottawa have been in existence. In that same time span, Ottawa have played 16 rounds of playoffs.
If you think that's an unfair viewpoint, lets consider ONLY playoff series played since Ottawa first made the playoffs (96/97):
TORONTO: 13
OTTAWA: 16
Toronto didn't even make the playoffs 5 of those seasons and still only played 3 less playoff series.
Maybe if Ottawa could get out of the first round most years it would help?
Do you remember what you did before the Internet came into your house?
I sent letters to the Toronto Star as a kid. One got published. My very first blog entry!
Muppet, I don't talk about non-playoff teams during the playoffs because they haven't earned that respect.
Neither have you!
BeRed, not to nitpick, but you've commented twice on a thread about "non-playoff" teams and clearly you're reading all the comments.
Fair to say you might as well drop this holier-than-thou crap?
Not to be all realistic or factual on you bro, but the Leafs have given this city 44 rounds of playoffs since 1967.
Not to be all realistic or factual on you bro, but I wrote "Stanely Cup action", not playoff action. SCF v. Rounds 1-3. Remember, you're one of the big proponents of "if you don't win it, it doesn't matter".
I sent letters to the Toronto Star as a kid. One got published.
Gotta top you here. I got two published before 15 years of age. Sens fans win again.
Fair to say you might as well drop this holier-than-thou crap?
It is fair to say Muppet, but I don't think he'll drop it.
you're one of the big proponents of "if you don't win it, it doesn't matter".
Do you realize the irony of quoting that statement considering you are using to back up a team that didn't in fact win the Stanley Cup? I'm a Sens fan and enjoy getting my Leaf hate on as much as the next guy but it's a pretty lame ass argument that the Sens are better because they have lost a cup in the last 15 years and the Leafs haven't made it? They lost... lets move on people.
I much rather enjoy ending the cocktease early in April like this year instead of being made to suffer through a couple more weeks before I inevitably start feeling stabby.
Remember, you're one of the big proponents of "if you don't win it, it doesn't matter".
Right. And Ottawa didn't win.
Also, the entire playoffs are called the STANLEY CUP PLAYOFFS. Just for the record. So when one says Stanley Cup action, they aren't necessarily referring only to the last round.
Anyway, all this is moot. Making the finals once, while Toronto made the semi-finals three times in that span and Ottawa were bowing out in the first round most years.
Pretty sure we're splitting hairs here as far as fan experience, don't you? No cups. One SCF for Ottawa. Multiple playoff rounds and winning all 4 head to head series for the Leafs.
Pick your poison.
Gotta top you here. I got two published before 15 years of age. Sens fans win again.
Wait! Which paper?
This fight isn't over yet...
Wings 2
Pens 1 in OT( 2 periods)
just announced...Heater for Kovalchuk
WOW!
Rumors are flying around these days, and one that intrigues me is San Jose as a trading partner.
They have the disappointment of not meeting expectations (yet again), so you'd think changes are a distinct possibility. And they have a lot of valuable assets to trade, young players with big upside, and maybe some big salaries they'd like to move (perhaps Marleau).
And Heatley could probably be sold to their fan base as an upgrade in a time where changes needed to be made.
I think a deal could be made that benefits both teams.
Hall Gill wins the Cup before Sundin.
Golden.
I'm back to the bucket....
Marc-Andre Fleury with the best response ever.
"What went through your mind as the Wings closed in on you in the dying seconds?"
"Oh, shit."
Hall Gill wins the Cup before Sundin.
And Hossa can't buy one. Once a Sen always a Sen huh?
"Once a Sen always a Sen huh"
Sounds like something Sundin once said about once a leaf always a leaf.....
Sens fans, I can break my self-appointed silence now and talk about our Sens now that the playoffs are over. When the playoffs are on, non-playoff teams don't deserve to be talked about in my humble opinion.
Heatley, give me a break will you. My favorite player on my favorite team and you go and do this because Coach Clouston says you are out of shape and need to work on your fitness levels. This is also part of the reason our Strength and Conditioning Coach was just let go as well by the way.
Goodbye Heater and this is what we can expect in return for your selfish ass.
For trading partners, EDM, LA, STL, VAN, and MIN make the most sense to me.
As for trading parts, any deal for Heatley will have to include a high 1st rounder in this year's draft + blue chip prospect at forward OR D + top-6 forward OR top-3 D. Spread the wealth.
For those who think I'm dreaming, look at what BM got for Meszaros: a late 1st rounder + Kuba (a 2/3 D for sure) + a mid-level prospect. For MESZAROS, who has about 1/19th of the sexiness factor of a Heatley.
So, is EDM's 1st + Gilbert OR one of Gagner or Cogliano + Eberle, or LA's 1st + Frolov + JJ or maybe one of Hickey or Teubert, too much to ask for? Hell no no. Are you kidding me? Heatley will bring in a king's ransom. Speaking purely from an offensive perspective, in terms of what he brings to the table in terms of goals / points, he's next in line after the NHL's holy trinity of Crosby-Ovechkin-Malkin. That's no exaggeration, either.
I'm not happy about this situation, to be honest, but I have no doubt that we're going to clean up with this deal, especially with BM behind the wheel. Screw this Dustin Penner noise. No magic beans here, please. This is the GM that turned an unsigned, whiny Meszaros into a signed Kuba, Campoli, and Picard (who too many people have given up on already), after all. Please.
Sens fans, this is the trade that I would be ecstatic with.
Heatley going to LA for Frolov, Teubert and the 5th overall.
I don't like Frolov as he is a great candidiate to flee to the KHL in 2010/11, but LA will want to shed his $4 million off the books.
Teubert is just a mean and nasty SOB and is of the mold off my most hated player, Chris Pronger.
If we can pull this deal off, we will have added Karlsson, Weircoch, Teubert and 2 of this year Top 9 in the last two draft years. Unreal.
We will also have eliminated our salary constraints and can now focus on getting a true PMD.
I won't get into unrealistic offers that I have heard. This one makes sense from both ends and I would love to see this trade go down.
Sens fans, just a quick look at a true comparison that happened less than 3 years ago:
A signed Chris Pronger who everybody knew wanted out of EDM brought in:
Lupul (young, hot, off a great season)
Smid (hghly-touted defensive prospect)
1st rounder (2007)
1st rounder (2008, conditional)(cond. were met)
2nd rounder (200
Just Pronger. No picks, prospects, or other players came along with Pronger.
Heatley will bring in a similar haul, especially from a team desperate for scoring, of which there are plenty.
I fully expect a comparable return for Heatley. Look at the man's point production over the last 4 years. He's up there with the NHL's best (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin). We all know that he's got holes in his game, but there's no question that he puts the puck in the net and is signed long-term, and people are going to pay for that.
The Pronger comparison is a VERY good one in my opinion: elite, coveted player signed long term.
You may be an optimist BeRed.
Bob Tchykowski (sp?) was slagging Heatley something fierce in the paper today.
Wasn't Pronger a Norris Trophy winner and former MVP as well back then? Not sure Heatley brings quite that purse back, but I'll take it if he does!
Is this completely ridiculous?
To Colorado:
Heatley, Brian Elliott (they need a goalie)
To Ottawa:
3rd overall, Wojtek Wolski (or, if they can't get him, maybe Svatos?)
To Edmonton:
Spezza, and something to sweeten the deal I don't know what (A 2nd? A prospect like Zubov or Bass?)
To Ottawa:
10th overall, Patrick O'Sullivan, Gilbert Brule
To Tampa:
Edmonton's 10th overall, one of Patrick O'Sullivan or Gilbert Brule, and one of Alexandre Picard or Chris Campoli
To Ottawa:
2nd overall
Ottawa drafts Hedman (to go with Karlsson) and Duschene, and still has their 9th overall to pick up whoever.
The Pronger comparison is a VERY good one in my opinion: elite, coveted player signed long term.
I agree with Greg, Pronger was a #1 d-man and at the time and probably top 3 in the NHL - not a good comparison to Heatley right now. Heatley, although very talented is still in a larger group of skilled forwards and not as precious a commodity as an all-star defenceman.
Also, that was then and this is now. With the economics and current trends, I don't forsee teams trading away a boatload of high prospects and a top 5 pick. My guess is that any payment for Heatley will consist of mainly of a current player. The Frolov deal you mentioned might work, but if Ottawa expect the #5 pick, a AND Teubert along with Frolov, they might have to sweeten the pot.
I saw it in the paper today that Heatley has submitted a list of team's he's okay with being traded to. As if it wasn't going to be hard enough to get a good return.
What planet is this guy on? He must know that he was a cornerstone of Ottawa's building plans. How can a person in good conscience torpedo an entire franchise by both demanding a trade and ensuring that the team gets a minimum return?
To request a trade and then use your NTNMC to determine where you go is textbook douchebag.
To request a trade and then use your NTNMC to determine where you go is textbook douchebag.
I suspect the Sens will take the position that Heatley has waived his NTNMC and if he has a problem that position he may very well be told to fight it in court.
Anyone else think Heatly won't be moved?
Anyone else think Heatly won't be moved?
No.
If this were to end up on court a la Yashin, one would expect any of the following:
There has to be a penalty of some sort accompanying this type of douchbaggery. Perhaps the next CBA would address this type of situation with the following:
Any player requesting a trade prior to the end of the non-option years of the contract:
~immediately forfeits the right to limit the teams to which the player may be dealt;
~forfeits a substantial portion of any July 1 bonus ($4M for Heatly) with any bonuses for future years automatically recalculated based on comparable player bonuses enacted at the termination of the following season;
~any existing NMC is forfeited upon relocation (perhaps adjusted to NTC for duration of contract).
No.
Can you maybe be a little clearer, DC?
We need to refrain from putting these guys on a pedistal!
Douchbaggery? Good one!
p.s. Congrats Yoda!
Indeed. Way to jump on the Sidney Crosby train, Yoda.
...I'd shake your hand Yoda,but you're probably not into that...
This $4M bonus thing has me thinking...
If the Sens pay Heatley's $4M bonus on July 1, does that count against their cap hit for next year, even if they later trade him? Or does cap hit only apply to average annual salary of the player over the term of their contract, and the full cap hit would be taken by the team for which he plays next year?
Can the Sens agree to pay the $4M bonus even if they trade him in advance of July 1st? Could the Sens and Heatley agree to a contract amendment to move up the date of the payout to, say, June 16th and then trade him?
Any way I look at it, I'm thinking the range of options available to Murray opens up significantly if the acquiring team isn't saddled with that $4M bonus payout. Getting it out of the way removes the incentive for other teams to wait until after July 1st to make a deal.
For players Heatley's age (old guys like Duff are slightly different), the cap number is all moneys paid over the life of the contract divided by the number of years. In this instance, while the $4M would affect a club's short term cash flow, it makes no difference to the cap number in this or future years.
I'm pretty sure money can't be shuffled between teams but if it was a sticking point for a team, the deal could probably be arranged (and draft picks selected) but not take effect until July 1.
$4M wouldn't count against the cap but it would scare off more than a few teams. Which western teams can blow that kind of dosh? Add that to the "shortlist", and there might be one team that works.
What it also probably means is that Ottawa will have to take salary players, not draft picks and prospects, in any trade situation.
Anyone agree?
Anyone agree?
You're talking about 10% of the contract, assuming no more bonuses (which he will almost certainly earn), but your point is pretty well though out.
So I disagree, but just barely.
p.s. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'anonymous NHL executive' talking up Heatley was Murray.
What it comes down to is this: the people who will value Heatley in their organization, either because they believe they can keep him happy or they can believe they can fix his attitude, will value him a lot.
Those who don't, including perhaps teams like Team Canada, will not.
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