What can Palestine do with no support?
I'm American. Internally, the country is more involved with ethnic cleansing. Externally, the US doesn't much care.
If it's at all a help, during Hillary's online paty tonight, there was discussion of poverty, and abused and displaced persons.
Of course, I don't have a sound card, I'm working on it, but no good yet. But, the headlines on her site, hillaryclinton.com, gave those issues as having been discussed.
I do have different views on the definition of terms being written about by us. I did study this subject at length. May be the US theorists define differently than others.
mltwine
maybe so. I haven't done extensive research on these terms. I just note, that they are used, and for some reason unbeknown to me, are defined by diplomats, politicians and lobbyists.
It seems to me, that in Kenya, there is definitely at the very least attempted genocide. I'm not going to venture to say which group/persons are doing it and which group/persons are victims. The fact is, and I have news via friends there, that there are people wo want to kill anyone belonging to a certain 'ethnic' group. It may not be planned in the sense, that the Shoah was, but what difference does it make on the ground?
Of course, it's quite possible to define killing as 'cleansing' if one wishes to get all euphemistic!
I hope you sort your sound card out soon!
As for Chad and Kenya, the defining factor would be:
If a single or group of tribes, (ethnic groups) were to ritualisticly murder another single or group of tribes, it would be called ethnic cleansing, definately.
The key here is to ferry out if a decision was made for a ritual to take place. At that moment, genocide becomes ethnic cleansing.
Perhaps many people think of actions as being inert, constant in tradition. No. Culture is being created, defined, then, on and on.
I am defining ethnic as being a group of customs, beliefs and traditions. By deciding to perform murder by the use of a single or group of actions, the gruop has become ethnic.
For example, some of us non-diamond wearing women in the US hoped the end of Apartied in S Africa meant we could finally wear diamonds. But, alas, the horrible slavery techniques being used to mine diamonds is at work today. I feel the acts of the mine "leaders" are actually using the concept of ethnic cleansing. I still cannot wear a diamond.
This is where dear Noam and I would differ. He's a big shot, and I am a woman in the bowels of midwestern America. It's why I had to retake my language theory class, too. My inside being could not agree.
I am not aware, that in the Chad there is anything else than war between a government (defined as dictatorial) and rebels (doing the defining). I could be misinformed though.
I am not criticising your definition of 'ethnic'. I am simply defining 'genus' in the same way.
It seems to me, that 'genocide' with it's suffixe meaning 'to kill' is quite clearly closer to the wiping out of a population than ethnic cleansing which can be defined (and is by Illan Pappe for example) as the displacement of a population. The palestinians are not being wiped out as such (that would be a dishonest statement) but it can be said they are slowly being displaced (starting in 194
, ie. Palestine is being 'cleansed' of it's population.
I believe the originator of the term 'genocide' meant it in that way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Gen...e_term_genocide
Do you mean, that it must be planned in advance for it to be ethnic cleansing? I am not sure I'd agree with that. It definitely wouldn't apply to the diamond mines. I doubt you could say the mine owners planned to wipe out/displace a population by means of slavery, even if it can be said the slaves are majoritarily from one ethnic group and even if the result is often death.
All this is semantics, which i was originally lamenting in my post!
I know.
My prof, Dr someone (?) is an expert in this field. And in being an undergrad and following rules of US education, I didn't have a right to alter sound appearing to experts views by card-holding persons, mostly men persons.
Just as a pack of wolves may not intend to murder a sheep as they awaken to their hunger, the pack will use a group of agreed upon methods upon seeing the sheep. Certainly every attempt will be made to kill it.
Men have in their core the ancient manner of survival. Combined with "higher order thinking" man is capable of murder. Yes, finding commonality is no doubt instantanous.
I don't think advance planning exists next to coordination. There is advance planning in my heart and mind. If I choose and if need be to carry forward my plans, I will pursuade others or negociate if my plan is weakened by sheer bulk in numbers.
I am only, JEZ, concerned with semantics when someone tries to throw off the real issue, people kill not ideas or attitudes, customs or beliefs.
Palestine was/is seen as being unwarranted by Western standards. Were Palestine a warranted state, transfer into the state would be done differently. Ethnic cleansing and not genocide is the term I use for murder and displacement there.
Notice the devices:
walls where wanted, built by captures
denial of inhabitants worth
separation of people
separation of people from their tradition land
stopage of trade
systematic displacement by other methods
In the US and with the "red man", loss of language is a very, very big method for ethnic cleansing. Next to that, removing children from the villiage was/is vital for ethnic cleansing here.
Dare I say in your open forum...
the demonizing nature of the US onto the arab tribes is in many circles a form of ethnic cleansing.
Just cut off my dialog or comments if you wish to consolidate this site. I will not call it ethnic cleansing on your part. *wink*
I bore people sometimes.
Comment removed due to violation of our posting policy ..
Ethnic cleansing is not cool. Not at all. We all walking this earth should better try to cohabitate.
Ahmed - or Billy John Bob or whoever owns the pea brain which so distinguished its self above - I will allow your pathetic comment to remain. I can't garantee, that it will remain for very long though!
JEZ-JEZ-JEZ!!!
A couple days ago I heard the terms, "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" used in the same sentence. It was during the news on NPR.
I was hoping for a dream to come true: Saying one is both being cleansed of their ethnicity and being acted upon by the nature of genocide at the same time.
No. Ethnic cleansing was toward one country and genocide was toward another.
I'm sure you don't want to know this, but....
Next I would like to hear: When is murder not murder?
which countries?
murder is not murder when one is bringing democracy to those killed...
I believe the genocide was connected to Kenya, and the ethnic cleansing was referring to Pal/Isra.
Is socialism not a factor? Several countries have forms of socialism, Denmark, Sweden, Turkey.
I wasn't aware those countries were particularly socialist! Turkey has an islamic ('Islamic Democrat' might be the correct term...) government, Denmark is a monarchy with a right-of-centre government and Sweden a monarchy with a social democratic government.
How is socialism a factor? I don't understand.
I don't know. People from those places tell me that. hmm.
Democracy is really a theory. It's not the only theory around.
Democracy is a structure.
In the US, I'm not so certain if democracy was brought here to help the native peoples. Even now with candidates reaching out to minority groups, even now with Obama's strong statement about US military mistakes in Afganistan, I hear no words, no comments about those first people living in the US, the Native American.
Democracy is a structure. Strong at its base is the erasure factor, 'get along, fit in or put up with what we will do to you.'
Democracy seems to have small patience for tradition and culture, too, unless the tradition means a lot of money for a few. Otherwise, Democracies would already be equipped to handle global warming, for example, since the threat has been around for a long, long time.
I appreciate Democracy. I would love to walk hand-in-hand with everyone in the world. Does that mean I need everyone to have this structure, Democracy, the world over?
I want to power, the permission to walk in peace with everyone. I want Peacokracy. There must be a structure for such a theory.
So, I am way off task and way off subject.
moonlite
How is Palestine being ethnically cleansed? Jordan is thriving and the West Bank and Gaza whilst troubled still has over 4 millions Arabs living there, the population has doubled and then doubled again since 1948. Where does genocide come into it then? How many countries in the world would put up with a much weaker neighbour shelling them for decades? None...that's a fact...none.
As for Ahmed...his people know all about genocide. Ask him what Muslims did to Hindu's during India's partitian and the formation of Pakistan. My country is full of Pakistani's bleating about Israel the hypocrisy of that is awesome. Then again I suppose GEUNINE genocide of millions is allowed as long as they are not Muslims.
Lisa,
Perhaps you think Israel should by now have 'wiped the palestinians of the map', and that they prefer to take over their land, bomb them, destroy their houses, humiliate them instead is a proof of Israeli humanity?
Our debate here, was the meaning of 'ethnic cleanising' vs 'genocide'. While I don't beleive there is a genocide in Palestine. I do believe they are being ethnically cleansed, as the purpose of the Israelis seems to be, to allow more and more Israeli settlers in Palestine while reducing the land on which Palestinians live, and making their lives unbearable.
If you want to dodge the subject and talk about India, I suggest you check your facts. India is primarily Hindu. Despite it being the worlds largest 'democracy', Hinduism is very much the dominant religion/philosophy/political tool.Inform yourself, and learn about Hindu vs. Muslim violence in India before jumping to conclusions.
Ya know, I tend to agree with you Jez. Israel seems to be cleansing Palestine of its people. Things like denying traditional water sources, walling up parcels of land and denying the population passage through their own land, bombing, then, displacing people from their communities. covertly overtaking the peoples agriculture, etc.
What is missing from how the Americas was/is being cleansed and Israel's style is the taking of children and retraining them, denying them use of their own language, refusing to allow family to visit the children. Another thing lacking in Israel's cleaning is the stealing and mockery of Palistine's cultural traditions and artifacs.
Israel acts like gangsters, well-paid gangsters, when it come to their overtaking of Palestine.
Unbelievable. Someone is telling ME to get an education and seems oblivious to the fact that India was partitioned to form Pakistan. I don't have to 'inform myself' or 'jump to conclusions' the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Hindus and others from Pakistan is well documented. And as a matter of fact, I don't care that YOU were talking about the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide (are people really stupid enough to think they are one and the same even when people are not being murdered by the 100,000 or so?) I answered a comment about Darfur and last I heard THAT was in Africa. I don't see any complaints about that from you and he was advocating genocide not speaking out against it. Sheesh some of you people on your moral high horses can't see for the clouds you are so high up and accusing me of thinking the map should be wiped of Palestinian people for merely pointing out the Israelis aren't committing genocide is a frankly typical, emotive, illogical and deeply offensive over reaction. There are no grounds for such an accusation from you...none whatsoever.
Ms Jordan, not sure what you are trying to point out.
"Sheesh some of you people on your moral high horses can't see for the clouds you are so high up and accusing me of thinking the map should be wiped of Palestinian people for merely pointing out the Israelis aren't committing genocide is a frankly typical, emotive, illogical and deeply offensive over reaction."
I no longer own a horse. May be JEZ does, but are you being literal? I love clouds. The puffy ones are the best!!!
I was thinking JEZ is thinking Palestine is being ethnically cleansed.
Me? I think Israel is acting like a gang. The Palestinian people are being reduced to existence without their cultural continuity in completion. Israel is not interested in stealing culture or corrupting it. They just want to ef them around. It just seems like "the mob."
It's pretty obvious I was replying to whoever it is who thinks this conversation is about genocide v ethnic cleansing but that mentioning it about India is 'dodging'. I'm not trying to dodge anything just pointing out that there is a lot of hypocrisy over Israel...the genocide following partitian of India being a prime example.
I live in Britain and believe it or not we've had examples of British born Muslims attacking British born Hindu's over Kashmir. My daughters boyfriends school had to provide extra security to protect Muslim pupils. It annoys me that so many people involve themselves almost exclusively in the Israeli/Palestinian issue thanks to saturation and largely unfactual Arab and Muslim propaganda. Especially as you can't get any of them to mention Darfur...except for your friend up the board who thinks ethnic cleansing is acceptable as long as it's not Muslims being ethnically cleansed and interestingly goes largely unchallenged on his nasty viewpoint. I'd say that's typical.
The only kind of ethnic cleansing that can possibly be linked to genocide is the kind that takes place when people are running for their lives otherwise there is evidence to show that they WILL be killed. Given that the Palestinians and Israelis were intitially moved about by the British to seperate them ethnically and create the Israeli/Jordanian border and later the Palestinians fled because Arabs told them to but the Palestinians who stayed were NOT subjected to genocide in Israel but remain there still...I'm not sure how anyone in their right minds can be asking if genocide and ethnic cleansing of an area is the same thing with regards to the Israeli/Palestinian situation. Clearly it's not.
Oh dear...slipped up, the security was to protect the Hindu boys. There were Muslim boys at the school but it was kids from a neighbouring school that were attacking them. Why on earth do people allow themselves to be manipulated by politics into violence like that?..but they do..and they use Israel in the same way which is causing problems in Europe. I hate it when Westerners thinking they are being pro active and compassionate are unaware that they are being manipulated. The Israeli/Palestinian situation is small fry compared to other situations in the world. 40,000 are dying in the Congo every month due to war and it's associated problems, famine and disease due to people being displaced. Ethnic cleansing? Congo? What's that hey?
Ethnic cleansing? Congo? What's that hey?
If you had taken the time to look at the archives you would see that there are no exceptions to the subjects this web site is willing to highlight Linda.
Here is one example of an article that we have posted that covers the sickening crimes taking place in the Congo.
http://terrorism-news.blogspot.c...till-
under.html
You can of course find examples of the suffering of almost any ethnic group by the hands of others but you seem hell bent on highlighting the alleged crimes of Muslims whilst at the same time claiming ‘hypocrisy’,'propaganda' and 'unfactual' information when it comes to the suffering of Muslims.
How convenient 
Irony is not dead it seems.
Don't you see that highlighting the comparatively minor events in your 'daughters boyfriends school' whilst at the same time diminishing the relatively significant suffering of thousands of Palestinians shows a distinct sign of 'hypocrisy' in itself.
Lisa,
I'm sorry you have a problem with people being particularly interested in Palestine/Israel. Is that an argument against the ethnic cleansing/genocide theory?
As for hindus, I have absolutely no beef with them. Why should I? I have no beef with jews, muslims, buddhists or christians either. There are those who attack others because they dislike them or because they feel threatened. Most likely the latter. That is a problem, and it is something whish needs to be addressed. Why do people feel threatened? (including white racists, by the way).
As an American, I am sickened by the amount of money spent helping Israel capture, hold and even murder those in Palestine they consider in need of capture, holding and murdering.
Without all of the financial support the US gives Israel, may be progress toward peace would occur.
Sure, there is a point where fear helps rally support of Israeli isolationism. It is a genuine fear from WWII. It's a difficult thing to get past mass cultural fear. It's like mass post tramatic stress disorder. Generationally, this mass PTSD can increase into what it is today. But, not all Jewish people the world over or even in Israel approve of the Israeli dogma and military strategy.
Miss Linda, I would say Israel is certainly actively involved in ethnic cleansing...in gang mentality moreso.
I lived with a family as a young child, who were involved in missionary work in Congo, the region of Congo during the 1950's. I remember when the revolution took place. Because I had personal interest in Congo then, (our church was deeply involved there and my foster father was overseer of the mission there) it has always made me sad to even hear the word "Congo."
Do not mistake lack of verbalage as lack of concern or caring.
It seems,that only people living on another planet can fail to see that what happened was ethnic cleansing. Among the 'new historians' in Israel even Benny Morris says as much. He just believes it was inevitable and didn't go far enough. The only debate among thinking people now is wether it was intended or not. The fact is: it happened.
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