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Thinking Christian Comments |
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Q: Can something unpredictable be considered an explanation for some event?It depends whether you mean individually unpredictable or statistically unpredictable. The former is acceptable, the latter is not. A statistical prediction is still a prediction. If your theory predicts a probability distribution (even a flat one), that is still a prediction, and still qualifies the theory as a candidate explanation. IOW, to be explanatory, it is not necessary to predict individual chance events, as long as you can at least predict a statistical distribution. |
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I don't think I wrote that the thing being explained needed to be material. I wrote that the proposed explanation, and the proposed experiments (or some such) to confirm it, needed to be measureable and material. So, with this comment are you correcting something I wrote, or are you extending what I wrote?I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that any controlled experiment implies materiality, even if what is being measured is non-physical? How about prayer studies? Your claim here suggests that controlled demonstrations of the effectiveness of prayer might render God material. |
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A statistical prediction is still a prediction. If your theory predicts a probability distribution (even a flat one), that is still a prediction, and still qualifies the theory as a candidate explanation. IOW, to be explanatory, it is not necessary to predict individual chance events, as long as you can at least predict a statistical distribution. I'm a little confused about this. Seems like there is a problem with circular referencing. a) To get statistical data and form a predictive model you must observe events that have not been explained yet. b) To explain events you predict it will fit the statistical data. In a way it sounds like you are saying "I predict that what I see can be explained in terms of what I've seen before". That sounds like a restatement of observations, and you already said that isn't valid. Please clear this up. |
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In a way it sounds like you are saying "I predict that what I see can be explained in terms of what I've seen before". That sounds like a restatement of observations, and you already said that isn't valid.I think the confusion arises because our minds often explain data implicitly. Suppose I show you a graph of data points that seem to form a perfect straight line. If I propose a straight line "law" to explain the data points, you might be tempted to say that I'm just restating the observation that the data points lie on a straight line. However, that's your mind being a good theorist and instantly proposing a straight line explanation without any formalities. In the restatement case we have: My data points fall on the straight line y=ax+b. In the explanation case we have: My data points fall on the straight line y=ax+b, AND I predict that future measurements will lie on this same line (to within some level of precision). The difference is critical. Here's an example. Suppose that you and I measure the amount of time it takes for a particular ball to fall from the top of the Tower of Pisa to the ground below. In four trials I get 3.3 seconds, 3.4 seconds, 3.3 seconds and 3.2 seconds. We take turns, and so you have also done trials, but have not yet told me your results. Based on my data, I hypothesize that there is an explanatory "law" that the ball always takes the same amount of time to fall, and that this time is 3.3 +/- 0.1 seconds. This is perhaps the simplest of cases, and the type that most resembles restatement. And yet, this is not a restatement of the data. It is not simply the claim that it took an average of 3.3 seconds during my trial (which would be a mere restatement). Rather, it predicts that redoing the experiment will get me the same results. It predicts that your trials will be in line with my own. Computing statistical metrics is not explanation, but predicting that a statistical metric will hold in the future is. Does that answer the question? |
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In the explanation case we have: Q1: Given your comment, is this a fair statement now? If not, please tweak it as necessary. "I predict that what I see can be explained in terms of what I've seen before, to some level of precision." Q2: How do you quantify the level of precision (tolerance) if not from the observed data? Once again, it seems your entire prediction is based on what you've already seen. |
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Q1: Given your comment, is this a fair statement now? If not, please tweak it as necessary.I'm not sure what you mean by this question. Can you rephrase it? Let's use the graph analogy. I have some data points on a graph. An explanation consists of a curve passing through those data points, and such a curve always interpolates and extrapolates. However, I cannot infer which curves explain the data points without using inference from the data points. So, yes, it's "based on" what I've already seen, but not equivalent to what I have already seen. Indeed, the curve could be something that has never been seen before. So it would be misleading to say that the explanation is a restatement or "only" what has been seen before. It contains predictions so it cannot be only what has been seen before. A good example is General Relativity (GR). GR was invented based on special relativity, which was in turn based upon explanations and observations of electromagnetism and Newtonian mechanics. Several interesting GR solutions were predicted, including black holes. Black holes had certainly not been observed before GR. So, yes, GR was based on what we had seen before, but it predicted things never seen before. Q2: How do you quantify the level of precision (tolerance) if not from the observed data? Once again, it seems your entire prediction is based on what you've already seen.Uncertainty and precision may appear because our senses or instruments are fallible, or because the effect we're looking at is not acting alone. For example, in the case of the ball dropping from the tower, we might anticipate that winds, humidity or other factors affect the rate of descent. Since we're not measuring these factors in our experiment, we're not controlling for them, so we would have to assume that these other factors are relatively small. That is, our explanation says "assuming air friction and moisture are negligible, the time to fall is 3.3 seconds +/- 0.1 seconds, where the uncertainty relates to all the factors we're not measuring, and to the limitations of our instruments." We are assuming that the uncontrolled environmental factors and user and instrument errors are pretty much random, so they fall into a Gaussian distribution around the mean. The +/- is a standard deviation, which is a measure of how wide the distribution is. The more experiments we do, the better we understand the distribution, and the smaller we can make our uncertainty. So, yes, the uncertainty for an explanation is something we infer from past experience. |
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One weekend, ten of the scientists come to observe the athlete again. During their observation the athlete runs with a time of 4.2sec and the scientists are amazed. They attempt to repeat the time, but the athlete never comes close. All future runs fall within the original predictive model.If you have a predictive model of this event, sure. However, it's difficult to cook up an explanation for a one-time event if you weren't collecting any other data. Here's an explanatory theory. Someone tampered with all of the stopwatches that day. It's incredibly unlikely. However, from what we know about human runners, a 4.2 second run is even less likely. This theory predicts that examination of the stopwatches will locate the defect or at least a way to tamper with them. It predicts that you will find a person or persons who had means, motive and opportunity. Alternative theory: Perhaps a cocktail of drugs and steroids can cause a man to run more than twice as fast as the fastest human. Predicts that the runner will have drugs in his system. Predicts that drugs may be found (or may have already been found) that can do this. Suppose we rule out all of the theories we can come up with. In that case, the 4.2 second run remains unexplained. You can include the statistic in the runner's statistics if you like, and his average speed may be stellar for a short while, but eventually, the average will be diluted by the statistics of his mediocre (by Olympic standards!) running. |
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Secondary to that question (which I think will help us a lot), what kinds or categories of things would your model consider as explanations of this hypothetical event, doctor(logic)?Anything properly predictive, i.e., predictive, and not artificially shielded from verification. Suppose I sign a contract with you in which I promise to clean your windows. If a clause in the contract says that I cannot clean your windows on weekdays, and not on Saturdays or Sundays either, then I'm not really signing a contract to clean your windows, even if there's some pretense to doing so. It doesn't matter that the contract says your windows will be smudge-free after contract execution, the whole thing is a sham because there's no intent or mechanism to ever get to the clean-window state. Likewise, there's no point in us claiming a predictive explanation if the predictions can never be verified by the rules of our explanation. |
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Also, doctor(logic), should we gather from your 1:46 am comment that "predictive" always implies some sort of correlation? Or can "predictive" have other senses besides?Hmmm. This question is rather vague. Everything, even the meanings of words, implies some degree of correlation (e.g., I correlate the word Elephant with sensations and thoughts of elephants). Suppose I observe a cup collects 3" of water every June, and I predict that it will do so next June. I have to correlate June, the cup, the water, and the year to confirm the prediction. Suppose I observe odd numbers sum to even ones. I predict this will always be the case. I prove a theorem that shows this to be the case in general. Doesn't the proof correlate odd numbers and even sums in all cases? What is the alternate sense of prediction you're thinking of? |
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Suppose we rule out all of the theories we can come up with. In that case, the 4.2 second run remains unexplained. Suppose 10 of the 50 scientists formed their own predictive model such that the 4.2sec run met the conditions of predictability. One groups says the 4.2sec run can be explained by the data, the other says it remains unexplained. How does this get settled? |
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Suppose 10 of the 50 scientists formed their own predictive model such that the 4.2sec run met the conditions of predictability. One groups says the 4.2sec run can be explained by the data, the other says it remains unexplained. How does this get settled?It gets settled by verifying the predictions of their theory. If you see a car crash, it isn't explained merely by the fact that you know that brake failure, intoxication, speeding, steering failure, etc are all explanatory. Knowing the explanation means deciding which explanation is most probable. You generally need all sorts of evidence about that particular event to do this with high confidence. For example, you will be able to tell the driver's blood alcohol level after the crash, and thereby verify that intoxication was a cause (or part of the cause). However, if you lack these details, you might still know something in light of past verifications. If you know that, historically, brake failure accounts for 1% of accidents and alcohol intoxication for 40%, you might justify a 40% confidence level that the accident was caused by alcohol intoxication. Of course, relies on the availability of statistics. |
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More broadly, what is the point of all these questions asked of DL, who answers them? Let's get to the point, eh? Tom has specifically set aside this as a Q&A so we can learn what exactly DL thinks. Didn't you read this? Clarifying questions and comments are in order; criticisms and statements of agreement are not. We need to get to the point where we all agree on what we're talking about, before we actually start the conversation. |
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It gets settled by verifying the predictions of their theory. It was verified to within the expected limits of the model. In this hypothetical situation, one group of scientists interpreted the data prior to the 4.2sec run in such a way that the probability of a 4.2sec run was 1 in a billion. A 4.2sec run may occur again during observation, or it may never occur again - that's what "1 in a billion" means. I'm trying to understand how this gets resolved. Tipping my hat to Paul, I can imagine any number of ways it gets resolved, but all of them require deviating from the original prediction model that was supposed give us the answer. |
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If all the wasps you see are less that 3" long, will you predict that 1 in a trillion wasps is as big as a Cadillac? I don't think you would say that. You would be confident to 1 part in a trillion that you won't see a wasp that big, and that's not the same thing as predicting one. You are using extremes and it's not necessary. All that's required is to step outside the prediction, no matter how small that step is. Suppose I see a wasp that was 3.1" long? The prediction model failed and the wasp can't be explained - yet here it is sitting in my hand. |
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It seems to me I have a problem though. I'm attempting to use an unexplained event to explain another unexplained event. All future events are explained in terms of the first event, which to this day remains unexplained.Explanation is the recognition of a pattern. If you only have one data point, you can't see the pattern. The more points you see, the more the pattern emerges. And emergence is exactly the right term. A single data point doesn't "contain" any explanation in the same way that a single geometric point doesn't "contain" any essence of the square or dodecahedron of which it is a part. There's no bootstrapping problem because explanations are relationships between data points, and relationships between explanations. |
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A single data point doesn't "contain" any explanation in the same way that a single geometric point doesn't "contain" any essence of the square or dodecahedron of which it is a part. Interesting theory, but one that doesn't seem correct to me. If each data point explains nothing then how does adding more data points help you? It's as if you are adding zero's together and somehow getting to the number one. A more intuitive theory would be that each data point has a limited amount of explanatory power. Switching gears a little, assuming your theory is correct, what does the prediction model tell us about the outcome? I'm talking about the significance, or meaning, of the outcome. If the model says we have an valid explanation, what meaning should we derive from that? |
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If each data point explains nothing then how does adding more data points help you? It's as if you are adding zero's together and somehow getting to the number one.A single brick doesn't make a wall, but many bricks do. A single point doesn't make a line, but many do. A single data point doesn't make a pattern, but many do. |
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It's the pattern that emerges, yet no single item in the pattern contains the whole pattern. I agree with everything you wrote, Paul. I just think the conclusion may be wrong. Your conclusion is: Therefore each point, each brick, contributes nothing to the whole pattern - nothing. Is there a prediction model we can use to help us? |
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What do you mean by "meaning" in this context? Does it tell us anything beyond "this is unexplained", or in the opposite situation "this is explained"? |
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Suppose that I could infer some other knowledge. In that case, I would be able to predict something else in light of the new knowledge I just inferred. But if I could predict something in light of my inference, I would have an explanation for the event. That contradicts the premise that I have no explanation for the event. Huh? Aren't you predicting something in light of the new knowledge gained (inferred) from all previous data points? |
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