Welcome to the most acurately titled website ever.

Dude, there's no grey. Jesus never claimed to be a philosopher. His teachings were all based on the foundation of what he said was fact: he is the Son of God. If you believe that he wasn't, then how can you come to any other conclusion than that he was a liar... and that his teachings had no foundation? If you believe that he was the Son of God, then... well you and I agree on something.

Creationism. You want to know why it's important to me? It's important because i have two school-aged children. They attend sunday school every week (once a week, as you may presume, on sunday). They learn from me. I teach them concepts that the bible teaches. I also help them to reconcile the differences between what school teaches and what they hear from the church and from me... that's my job as a parent: Equip them with the tools necessary to deal with gaps in truth and logic... sometimes assumptions are drawn, sometimes conclusions are drawn. A great may conversations with my ever-inquisative son have been fueled by mislead 'educators' who are hell-bent on spoonfeeding an agenda... and they have several hours a day during which to do it... every day... for a majority of a child's formative years.

I don't think that laws should be passed that endorse and enforce the baptist religion (or catholic or episcopal or...) as the official religion of the country... or of any country. But that portion of the first amendment no longer serves the purpose for which it was written. It is being used across the country to extinguish any traces of Christ from this nation's heritage... and sorry, but this nations's heritage involves Christ. There's a difference between passing a law establishing a religion and allowing crosses at arlington national cemetery... but those crosses are targeted for removal just as creationism was from school ciriculum.. and the attempts to remove "in God we trust" from money, "under God" from the pledge... the list, as they say, goes on and on.

Why should i have to pay to have my children sent to a private, non-secular school to not have what i'm teaching them -- and what the bible teaches -- be constantly contradicted by teachers and staff that my tax money is paying for?

I would argue that there's more being done to establish atheism or agnosticism as the national religion than anything else.... say isn't there an amendment that protects me from that sorta thing?
steve | Email | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 2:41 pm | #

Ok. Can't resist any longer. A couple of points made by Steve confuse/concern me and I'm hoping for some clarification. First of all, Steve has argued that Jesus said he was the son of God and that anyone who doesn't believe Jesus was the son of God believes Jesus to be a liar. I find this to be a troubling assertion because, to my knowledge, all we know of the actions/teachings of Jesus come from the Bible and the Bible is made up of reports about the life of Jesus, purportedly written by his students/followers. And, the Bible as we know it is only a small selection of those writings someone in history decided were good enough/non-controversial enough to make it in the Bible; there are, in other words, books of "the Bible" that we don't commonly read or maybe know nothing about. If all of this is true, can we really say we KNOW what Jesus said or can we only really say that in the limited amount of information we have someone has said that Jesus said that he was the son of God? In this case, I can say both that I don't believe Jesus was the son of God and that I don't think Jesus was a liar, right? I may simply have reservations about the reliability of an abridged, partial document of questionable reliability.

A parallel can be made between the Bible and the writings of Plato. Plato claims to report the activities and teachings of his teacher Socrates from around 300 b.c.e. Now, while we can assume that Plato didn't make everything up (much of what he said appears in other writings from around that time period), we are also pretty sure that some things are made up and some things ascribed to Socrates are actually part of Platonic philosophy and have no real relationship to the teachings of Socrates.

Second, I am concerned about Steve's claim about not wanting the establishment of a national baptist or methodist religion, but it seems that he doesn't mind if Christian theology is taught in the schools and, I'm assuming, if some form of Christian government is established. None of what Russ has been talking about concerns protecting Christians from one another; it's about protecting Muslims, Hindus, and Zoroastrians from Christians and Christians from Wiccans, Buddhists, and whoever else. This country may have been founded on Christians trying to escape persecution, but the idea of escaping religious persecution has become pretty popular across the board and many more than Christians now enjoy the freedom of religion outlined in our Bill of Rights. So, in order to protect them from us and us from them, it's best if none of us are allowed to teach our beliefs in a classroom where children of all religions are REQUIRED to sit. Steve, I believe it is commendable that you want to supplement your children's eduction with your own beliefs, but must children whose religions do not conform to your own be forced to learn about accounts of creation that are not consistent with what their parents are trying to teach them?

Finally, I wanted to point out that while the U.S. is not trying "to establish atheism or agnosticism as the national religion," attempts are being made toward secularizing schools and the government such that people whose conceptions of the afterlife do not conform with those of others will not be subjected publicly to beliefs they do not share.
Sara Mc. | Email | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 5:18 pm | #

(NOTE: This has nothing to do with your post)

Okay, so I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong. I took the first step toward wrongness about a year ago when I got my iPod ... and now that I'm using my 'Pod at the gym and LOVING IT, I admit that I was totally wrong when I cracked on people for using iPods at the gym. You were right; it is the best thing ever. And it makes my workout fly by.
Lindsay | Email | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 6:44 pm | #

Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God.

the bible is a great number of interpretations of a colletion of translations of a select collection of books by a relatively hotly disputed collection of authors suffering through multiple translations and thousands if not millions of interpretations. None of them (new testament) disagree with the fact that Jesus' teachings were based on the F O U N D A T I O N that he is the Christ. None of them. I've been studying the bible and commentaries and differing translations and books about books about books for a LONG time... there's NO sustained argument supporting your suppositions. (period).

"None of what Russ has been talking about concerns protecting Christians from one another" did you read the links, Ms Sara? ... stuff that russ posted? Read the Madison letter. The only reason i brought it up is because he referred to it... You can't go back to letters from a president and *DRAFTS* of letters from presidents and politicians to find the original meaning of the amendment and then not seek the original intent when it doesn't suit your cause...

"attempts are being made toward secularizing schools and the government such that people whose conceptions of the afterlife do not conform with those of others will not be subjected publicly to beliefs they do not share."

ok... i'm not sure how you can say this... if you set out to totally disprove the foundations of a given belief system, aren't you 'subjecting others to beliefs they do not share'? (namely agnostic) ... so my kids for example... come home with 'ok, wait... so God DIDN'T create the earth? God DIDN'T create animals? All this started from a WHAT?'... how is that NOT subjecting them to a different belief system?
You (in a general, non-direct sense) are so busy thinking about how to protect yourself from Christians that you don't stop to think how deeply you're encroaching upon their lives... But why would anyone care about all that? Someone does. Lots of people do. That's how idiots like George W Bush get elected... because Christians feel violated and like they need someone to protect them. It will sway back during the next elections... and a dem will be in office... but as soon as people forget what W has done, the Christians will be pissed again that the progress they made in pro-life and anti-gay marriage and all that (yes, maybe even creationism alternatives) will be sliding away again...

Full circle. The world is getting worse... all the tolerance and acceptance and 'secularizing' get people further away from God... and whether you believe in God or not, that's NOT a good thing. I think it was our illustrious host Russ who once said "his teachings were beautiful and if everyone followed them this world would be better off"

Good luck to you, Sara. According to the bible, (and i'm paraphrasing here...) You'll find God if you seek him... but He'll find you if you don't... Keep arguing. I'm prayin for ya.
steve | Email | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 6:54 pm | #

Well, we certainly agree on one thing, George W. Bush is a gigantic idiot. Well put, Steve.

On the rest, I just don't think we're going to agree. Jesus may not have been a philosopher, but I certainly am one.
Sara Mc. | Email | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 7:03 pm | #

Oh, and if someone could please answer... which of the three branches of government does the public school system fall under?
steve | Email | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 7:04 pm | #

Hey Steve,

I'm Chels, Russ's younger sis-in-law. I'm a Christian and I totally agree with my big bro. If someone started teaching pagen theories of the creation of the earth, would you be bothered by this. If someone at school told your son that Zeus created the world, would you be angry? I know where my faith belongs and that is not at public school ciriculum.

As for tolerance and acceptance ruining the world what about the lesbain girl that gets spit on because she is supposedly lesbain. Is that girls world being ruined. Yeah it is because I've been that girl.


So get over yourself and your ideas that everyone needs to be taught your religion in science class, 'cause buddy that just aint science.
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