Fine. Lose your intellectual base. Just makes my job easier.
Toss every Jew you can find from Palestinian organizations. Suits us just fine.
> here we go again, shifting focus away from Palestinians, that's what
> UK Anti-Zionist Jews do best
Ahem - who is exactly shifting the focus?
How relevant are these gatekeepers?
Lets talk about Teutonia - where I live.
Consumers of Teutonias media have never seen jewish leftists 'gate-
keeping' the discourse on Irael, because no such discourse exists.
The majority of teutonias journalists prefer to ignore the ME - and - if
the subject cannot be avoided - to repeat the propaganda, that resembles
the communiques from Israels embassy.
Although the fight between the 'former jew' - Gilad - a wonderful sax-player -
who takes self-hating too serious - and these leftists he suspects to be
gatekeepers - I doubt he can prove that in case of Mark Elf - at least - it's
not that interesting outside these circles - especially not in Teutonia -
where our media are even too spineless to translate (!) Tony Judt (who is
definetely not a LEFTIST gatekeeper) correctly.
So far the show 'Gilad against the rest of the world' is somewhat interesting
and may offer some insights - but it's also shifting the focus.
> Just makes my job easier.
Being a roach is not a job.
Did ya know that?
May be you should try to find one - do something real - not waiting for
the next checque from your local AIPAC bureau...
Stop beeing a welfare-queen and learn to swim.
You'll need that skill one day.
Proving that the Palestinians do not have a cause, beyond a desire for genocide, is my job.
And you make it a very easy job.
I don't wait for a check. It is automatically deposited.
Mary,
I will also address you by your first name.
Maybe I shouldn't have expected any better but I had hoped that instead of rushing off an instant response you had actually sat down and thought about what I said in the CIF article.
For example at least half of the article is dedicated to attacking the Zionist tactic and stratagem of labelling all support for the Palestinians and opposition to anti-Zionism as anti-Semitic. This has intimidated countless numbers of people and yet you say nothing about it. One of the reasons I speak up as a Jew is to counter this defamation. And yet to you it is too difficult an issue because some of those you work closest with also articulate anti-Semitic ideas. That is of course your problem but it explains your silence on this.
Having ignored the fundamental crux of what I wrote it is not surprising that you failed to understand the rest of the article either!
i. Gilad Atzmon compared Jews involved in Palestine Solidarity work with exiled Germans or yes German nationalists, a 5th column, in Britain during the war. If this doesn't make strangers of us then what does? I participate in the PS movement as an individual not a Jew anyway. I attack Zionism as a Jew, see if you can work that out.
ii. I didn't sign the Palestinians as Priority petition, not because I don't agree that the Palestinians are the priority, I do, but because the petition was aimed at unnamed persons in the Palestinian Solidarity movement who apparently didn't share this belief. It is clear who these people are, they include me. The fact that the petition is wrong in virtually every accusation made against us, e.g. over the right of return, is double reason not to sign.
iii. I have never said that fighting anti-Semitism is a priority in the PS movement. Reread my article again where I make it clear that anti-Semitism is a marginal form of racism cf. to attacks on e.g. asylum seekers. What I do say is that those who use anti-Semitic ideas, inc. Atzmon, are handing a free gift to the Zionists.
iv. I've never asked you to publish a 1,000 word essay on Jewish groups. I've never written one either.
v. I criticise or attack DYR because unfortunately its leading members, inc. British Director Paul Eisen, are fascinated by what they term historical revisionism i.e. holocaust denial. Since the holocaust is an established fact, one has to ask what their motives are. Why sully the Palestinian cause with this racist rubbish? The fight of the Palestinians is a fight against oppression, genocide, expulsion and racism pervades all. How can you possibly oppose Zionism and yet turn a blind eye or worse to anti-Jewish racism? Holocaust Denial is the property of the fascist right. It has no historical validity and is aimed at merely rehabilitating the record of the Nazi Party. Ironically no movement gave greater help to the Zionist cause than the Nazi Party. The Israeli State may not even have come into
v. I criticise or attack DYR because unfortunately its leading members, inc. British Director Paul Eisen, are fascinated by what they term historical revisionism i.e. holocaust denial. Since the holocaust is an established fact, one has to ask what their motives are. Why sully the Palestinian cause with this racist rubbish? The fight of the Palestinians is a fight against oppression, genocide, expulsion and racism pervades all. How can you possibly oppose Zionism and yet turn a blind eye or worse to anti-Jewish racism? Holocaust Denial is the property of the fascist right. It has no historical validity and is aimed at merely rehabilitating the record of the Nazi Party. Ironically no movement gave greater help to the Zionist cause than the Nazi Party. The Israeli State may not even have come into existence without the Nazi Party and the Holocaust and without European anti-Semitism there would have been no Zionist movement. That is why we oppose the former, because it led to the latter.
Many Palestinians recognise this simple fact which is why, like Abunimah, they criticsed DYR adviser Israel Shamir, who is an open denier of the holocaust and someone who finds the company of white supremacists and neo-Nazis most congenial.
Finally it is not for me or anyone to impose anything on the Palestinians. But in our fight against Zionism we will posit a democratic, secular state as opposed to the 2 states solution. Mary supports a unitary state but believes that it can also be Muslim. I disagree. If you are looking for a way forward you look to the problem, Zionism and its ideas of racial purity and you ask how best to create a non-racist society in which both Israeli Jews and Palestinians can live together. That society can only be secular and democratic. Religion should be the preserve of the private sphere not the domain of the law and privilege. If you don't accept that then you are not an anti-Zionist.
http://www.worldnewsstand.net/hi...ory/
Zionist.htm
http://www.biblestudysite.com/markis.htm
THE HOLOCAUST MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED -- IF --
If the Zionist leadership in Germany had not cooperated with the Nazis.
If the Zionists, world-wide, had not persuaded various countries to refuse to accept Jews from Germany.
The Zionists in America persuaded President Roosevelt to shut the door and not allow Jewish refugees into America before the war when there was still a chance for Jews to leave Germany.
* It must be added that many people,
including Jews, question whether the Holocaust happened as portrayed by the Zionist propagandists --
at least not to the extent the Zionist claim.
Believing in the Holocaust authentic history blindly will help Zionism.
For instance, it is scientifically impossible to testify that they are the testimonies such as Gerstein and Pfannenstiel, and the colors of the corpse of the carbon monoxide poisoning death are blues.
The color of the corpse of the carbon monoxide poisoning death is red.
Tony why do you feel that you deserve to be congratulated because ‘as a Jew’ you’re able to acknowledge that it’s Muslims who get the rum deal these days!? You’re mistaken if you imagine this kind of coffee-table liberalism exonerates you from being held to account for your shocking disregard of the Palestinian electorate. For your information, everyone who has a brain larger than a wall-nut understands that the word ‘but’ eclipses everything that went before it; lines like this for instance:-
‘it is not for me or anyone to impose anything on the Palestinians. But in our fight against Zionism we will posit a democratic, secular state’ pathetically pertains to evenhandedness then ultimately reveals a neo-colonial agenda.
Why not just say what you mean and be done with it? You believe Jews living in Britain have a better idea of what is good for the Palestinians than the Palestinians do. Who on earth do you think you are Tony? For all your pseudo empathy, you clearly regard Muslims as sub-human, theologically handicapped & incapable of legitimate decision making. You’re insistence on the superiority of secularism is bog standard ‘White Man’s Burden’ rhetoric. Now it’s the Guardian reading Jewry, rather than Kipling & co, who feel lumbered with the unfortunate task of having to tame the savages.
The Palestinians democratically voted in Hamas. They are the human beings who live on the slither of land called Palestine & this is their choice, not yours!
xxx
It is pretty staggering that you have the gall to accuse Paul Eisen & Gilad Atzmon of anti-Semitism when you seemingly have a reputation for xxx. I suggest you work through some of your xxx with a professional. Given that you are a secular fundamentalist, a Rabbi will not suffice but maybe a cognitive therapist could do the trick, a kosher one naturally….
I imagine you could defend your shameful activities with an entirely different set of circumstances. You see Tony there is no such thing as ‘historical facts’, just fluctuating beliefs, subjective memories & collective narratives.
Sarah Gillespie, fuck you woman!!!
Go to HELL.
TI - how does one mere mortal manage to possess such unquantifiable amounts of delectable charm....?
One of the real advantages of the internet is that it keeps marginal cranks off the streets and at home in front of their computers where they can wage wars with no relevance to anyone but themselves, and no damage done.
So hooray for the internet which occupies Tony Greenstein, Ibraham Av, Mary Rizzo and Sarah Gillespie, deludes them into thinking that they are making the slightest bit of difference to reality, while the rest of us get on with living.
Thank you for listening. Goodbye.
Sarah Gillespie,
Since you were nice I'll present you with the charm of this blog:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...7183892/
#231694
Teutonia, I thought that there was indeed a group of Gatekeepers in Germany, the anti-Deutsche. Anyway, you are right, all of this stuff does deflect energy away from what really matters. On the other hand, you might actually see how it is irritating to always be accused of things, or have those you know accused of things... you almost feel compelled to reply, even though you'd rather be doing other things.
Tony, I will try to address a few of your things one at a time. I will start here:
TG:And yet to you it is too difficult an issue because some of those you work closest with also articulate anti-Semitic ideas. That is of course your problem but it explains your silence on this.
M: Those I work closest with are not anti-Semites. Half of them are displaced Palestinians who are seeking their rights. They express anger sometimes, but it is not blind and it is articulated against the offences that they have undergone.
TG:. Gilad Atzmon compared Jews involved in Palestine Solidarity work with exiled Germans or yes German nationalists, a 5th column, in Britain during the war.
M: He made a simple analogy about how a group may be perceived, and this would be Jews, speaking as Jews, telling non-Jews what is the best for them. You seem to forget that perhaps, in your worldview, it might be time for you to direct your energies towards people like you, other UK Jews who might be able to learn from your experience, rather than assuming that as a Jew you have something useful to give to Palestinians. I don't think you do, because you always berate them.
TG:I didn't sign the Palestinians as Priority petition, not because I don't agree that the Palestinians are the priority, I do, but because the petition was aimed at unnamed persons in the Palestinian Solidarity movement who apparently didn't share this belief. It is clear who these people are, they include me. The fact that the petition is wrong in virtually every accusation made against us, e.g. over the right of return, is double reason not to sign.
M: the petition was aimed at anyone and everyone who might want to make a statement based on the principles that can't be sold off: ROR, respect of democratic vote, refusal to accept that both share equal responsabilities in the disaster, refusal to accept that other issues are going to take precedence to the interests of the Palestinians, including their right to resist. I'm not surprised you don't like it. Very many other people did, including some important names in the Palestinian world and in activism.
TG: never said AS is a priority.
M: well, everything you have ever written is obsessed with it. And as to the essay, of course you haven't written it. You asked on the ALEF if I would give you that exposure, a 1000 word essay, and I didn't answer, so I don't imagine you began writing anything. Lastly, what the hell do I or Gilad or DYR have to do with Nazi ideology? Nothing! I have nothing to do with your enemy Shamir either, so qui
Quit going so ballistic on things that I haven't even brought up.
Mary, this response is Teutonia's.
Don't you think this aryan roach should be banned, if not be put to death?
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...7183892/
#231694
forecast is right and I may accept his advise.
I am off of this accursed Natzi blog.
go go go, guy who brags of his sexual prowess under five different nicknames (so of course it's all fake! as if we care anyway). I didn't look at the link you left, and just skim over you, so go where you want. I won't miss you.
"your shocking disregard of the Palestinian electorate."
What???
We fully accept the fact that the palestiniajn people voted for genocide. And we are acting accordingly.
Now what is your problem, Sarah?
It’s a pity that Sarah Gillespie, who I assume is Atzmon’s PR person, has to get down into the sewer with the Zionists she purports to oppose.
A sad individual named Shachtman, a vehement Zionist, insists on posting lies about my past before CIF removed them. For the record:
I was a delegate to 13 NUS Conferences and served on the NUS Polytechnics Committee for 2 years, as well as Vice President of my own union. Being a Jewish anti-Zionist, the Union of Jewish Students did their best to try and ban me speaking on campuses and from NUS Conference. As they did other Jewish anti-Zionists like Roland Rance. They never succeeded in the former, but the right-wing controlled NUS Executive, most of whom like David Aaronovitch are New Labour supporters or in government did apparently vote for a ban at NUS Conference. So what? They were and are racists and Zionists to the core. These scum are the ones responsible for the racist treatment of asylum seekers and Moslems in Britain today.
Re the incident in question. A member of UJS assaulted me and yes I defended myself. At which point he wimped off. What I find interesting though is that Ms Gillespie is happy to accept Zionist smears as truthful, just as Shamir delighted in Sue Blackwell being inadvertently being linked to him. Which once again confirms all I have said, that Atzmon and his groupies are just the other side of the Zionist coin.
As to the other points:
i. I have never asked for congratulations because I stand up as a Jew against Zionism and its treatment of the Palestinians.
ii. Unfortunately Gillespie’s brain is indeed no larger than a fly. It is perfectly possible to support Palestinian self-determination whilst criticising the politics of Hamas or indeed any other Palestinian group. I worked with supporters of the PFLP and other Palestinian leftists. I understand why Palestinians have voted for Hamas, given the corruption and brutality of Fateh but that doesn’t mean I, or I suspect most Palestinians, agree with its politics. But then Mary and others, including Atzmon, support a unitary state. Hamas doesn’t in practice, it supports 2 states. But I also a socialist and I understand that the Palestinians by themselves are not strong enough to determine events. Without the overthrow of the rotten and corrupt Arab regimes, without forging an alliance with Israelis who are not racists, just as the ANC did in South Africa, the Palestinians will remain in the dire situation they are in. That might suit Gillespie who can continue to weep crocodile tears but I would like to see the Palestinians liberated.
iii. And then we see how deep the anti-Semitism has seeped. I apparently believe that ‘Jews living in Britain have a better idea of what is good for the Palestinians than the Palestinians do.’ Where have I said that? Most Jews, the vast majority don’t agree with a democratic, secular state in Palestine. It is my view. I speak as a socialist not a Jew in this
I speak as a socialist not a Jew in this respect. You have Jews on the brain, and precious little else.
iv. Yes I am a supporter of secularism, the antithesis of Zionism. Zionism took its political heritage from hatred of the French Revolution, as did Nazism and European reaction in the latter part of the 19th century. If you really think you can substitute Political Islam and the barbarities in say Iran or Saudi Arabia, the floggings and amputations for the Israeli State and sell that to anyone outside your charmed mistaken you are even more stupid than I previously thought.
Mary, you know, because you have now stopped it, that Eisen and co. are obsessed with Holocaust denial. Tell me how that helps the Palestinians? You know it doesn’t, it plays into the Zionist’s hands.
Gilad Atzmon’s comparisons are outrageous. When I am active in Palestine Solidarity Campaign I am there as an individual. When I take part in boycott activities in Brighton or elsewhere I do it as an individual, not a Jew. But when Zionists attack my comrades as anti-Semites I do intervene as a Jewish supporter of the Palestinians and I find that is usually very effective in shutting them up.
The Petition was aimed at people like me. A petition is usually a pretty useless means of campaigning anyway, but this one had a hidden agenda. I therefore didn’t sign it as it added nothing to any campaign I’m involved in. It was a petition to boost Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo. Sorry but that is not my priority.
Believe you me Mary, I have no obsession about anti-Semitism. I wrote on the Guardian piece that anti-Semitism is a marginal prejudice. It is unfortunate that Atzmon & co. continue to give vent to anti-Semitic ideas and thus give the Zionists a choice weapon to use against the Palestinian Solidarity movement. It is interesting that the Zionist responses to my article have not mentioned Atzmon, Eisen etc. Their focus is on attacking people like me who rubbish their claims that support for Palestinian is anti-Semitic.
Finally, I can remember when on the Just Peace UK list you did defend Shamir. If you have changed your mind that is fine by me. I am being honest and sincere when I say that I welcome that. But I also hope that DYR begins to clean up its act and that Gilad Atzmon stops praising Shamir, who is utter poison. Everything he writes is redolent of the worst fascist and neo-Nazi ideas. Palestinians need his support like they need the plague.
But if you no longer wish to defend him and have no attachment to him or his ideas fine. I won’t bring it up again!
Tony, the Palestinians welcome his support.
Wonder why?
I don't.
I do not understand how you can continue to support such a racist, antisemitic and genocidal group as the Palestinians.
It baffles me.
Holy degenerate commentary! Feasting and feeding off each other. Rabidly intellectual yet seeming so far removed from what matters. Or is this all that matters? Say it ain't so.
Additionally: Genuine anti-Semites! Or are they posers for the Zionist cause? Plus a racist Jew or two just to prove their racist too!
How about this:
Let the Jews who support the Palestinians raise the level of their game and start fighting (and dying) in their name.
Give up your Jazz. Get on the street. Throw some stones. Become dead meat.
Enough of the words against those Zionists you detest. Despise them beyond words. Despise them with your death.
Support the Palestinians but take it one step farther. What they need is more than words. They need bodies - fresh new martyrs.
When I see anyone break ranks from their tribe in deeds that lead to scorn. I'll believe that universal humanism has finally been reborn.
Otherwise this talking looks all too much like tribe against tribe against tribe.
And I thought there was a Palestinian Solidarity Movement to support.
Brad, I am sorry to disappoint you. My sax and my pen are my weapons. I assume that they are effective enough to get the Zios and their crypto brothers very very angry .
I do not think that I will be that effective in throwing stones, I may leave it to you and Greenie.
Good thing a sax is not racist. But Gilad is.
"Is this the same Tony Greenstein who was xxxx(CIF)
Tony, thanks to this Zionist on CIF we have learned that you were involved in xxxx. Something you happen to confirm above (though you provide an excuse...). However, it doesn’t stop just there… thanks to this Zionist contribution (that you were very quick to remove for a good reason….) we took the unusual initiative and looked into your past. We found some very interesting materials that I am pretty sure you do not like me/us to expose. To tell you the truth Greenie, your past is so embarrassing that I myself reluctant to expose it. Yet, you really give my friends and me some very good reason….
It will be interesting to learn from you, how do you explain the fact that you, out of all people, dares criticise Eisen and myself, people who have never been involved in any form of violence or xxx neither against Jews nor against anyone else.
Have a good day Mr Greenstein...
Shaukat: Allah is One, and Muhammad is His final Prophet.
Here's a brief description of Muhammad's sexuality
-------------------------------------------------
Muhammad had sex with just about anyone he pleased, thanks to Allah's remarkable interest in his personal sex life.
Muhammad was married to eleven women at one time, relegating them to either consecutive days or (according to some accounts) all in one night. He married a 9-year-old girl and even his adopted son's wife. On top of that he had a multitude of slave girls and concubines with whom he had sex - sometimes on the very days in which they had watched husbands and fathers die at the hands of Muhammad's armies.
So, by any realistic measure, the creator of the world's most sexually restrictive religion was also one of the most sexually indulgent characters in history.
Brad, your poem was interesting, but wrong in a lot of ways. You are right, that when the agenda is set by the (few) anti-Zionist Jews who seek to squeeze anyone else (especially Jews) out of "their" campaign of Righteousness, which boils down to determining exactly where all discourse is supposed to go, and definitely NOT willing to adapt to the situation should it become apparent that force-feeding "secularism" and passing that off as democracy is a way of activism that has seen better days. I too am secular. I too want the separation of Church and State. But, I am not about to tell Palestinians what to vote for, especially if they are the ones who have to live with the results. I will support them, as this is all I can do.
But, most Palestinians don't want to be a martyr. Most of them just want their rights. Is that too much to ask for? Those of us who want that for them can only use the tools we have at our disposal, dialectic, fund-raising and promotion of their culture. There isn't much else that we can do, as we are trying to convince OUR local leaders and the people in OUR countries to use tools of pressure and consensus to get the leaders to shift politics in order to obtain justice for Palestinians.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Arti...le.asp?
ID=18477
There are no differences in Mr. Greenstein and Plaut at all.
http://www.israelshamir.net/
Cont...ntributor13.htm
"·Overall there is very little evidence for the established Holocaust narrative.
Hard evidence is elusive, and what evidence as does exist is built largely on eyewitness reports,
confessions and hearsay.
Witness reports, notoriously unreliable anyway, are in this case totally false.
Many key witnesses have already been demolished in the witness box and many noted ones,
such as those by Rudolf Vrba, Felipe Muller, Kurt Gerstein and Rudolf Hoess,
are now partially or completely discredited."
Please prove the thing whose color of the corpse of the carbon monoxide poisoning death is blue.
Brad Stroud:
Enough of the words against those Zionists you detest. Despise them beyond words. Despise them with your death.
Yes, yes, Gilad, be a suicide bomber!!!
What's Izzie Baroque? Talmudski decorating the walls of the nearest pizza parlor.
TG: It’s a pity that Sarah Gillespie, who I assume is Atzmon’s PR person
SG: ha ha!!
TG: has to get down into the sewer with the Zionists she purports to oppose.
SG: It’s true Tony, even if I profoundly disagree with someone I don’t feel that necessitates a blanket disregard for absolutely everything they think or say, particularly when it’s regarding your xxxx. I mean what on earth did that xxxx ever do to you? Did you sit on it?
TG: Unfortunately Gillespie’s brain is indeed no larger than a fly
SG: Hey, far be it from be it for me to argue with a graduate from that intellectual Mecca, Brighton Polytechnic...
I reiterate what Mary pointed out in a post above, I am a secularist but I know many Muslims who are not. Given the election results in Palestine I assume that most Palestinians are not secularist either. Get over it.
Tony, I have to hand it to you. You certainly are quick to point out the faults (presumed or otherwise) of other people, yet, you attempt to come off clean as a whistle. It doesn't wash with me. Look, everyone can make mistakes (and you seem to be a serial mistake maker), but it is really rich for someone who has actually xxx to pontificate about what is appropriate and who is to be trusted. I don't want to mix up issues, and
I won't hold your past against you, but you should stop insinuating things about others when you yourself have some self-control problems. Judge not, lest you be judged... anyway, no one I happen to hang out with has xxxx, so I don't think that your moral superiority trip is going to hold out much longer unless you think that morals are variable and applicable on an individual basis.
Back to your comment:
But when Zionists attack my comrades as anti-Semites I do intervene as a Jewish supporter of the Palestinians and I find that is usually very effective in shutting them up.
Mary: Shutting who up? The Palestinians? ahaha, just joking. If you believe that Zionists "shut up" when Jewish people defend their comrades, you are obviously dealing with a different kind of Zionist than the type I know. Explain how it works, I'm curious.
cont:
TG: The Petition was aimed at people like me.
Mary: yeah, the world actually REVOLVES around YOU.... all political actions are just ways to reflect upon the beauty of YOU.
TG:A petition is usually a pretty useless means of campaigning anyway, but this one had a hidden agenda.
Mary: Ah, I know, petitions, elections, marches, demonstrations. We all know that the only thing that talks is money, but since we ain't got none, we use words for now. Hidden Agenda? You have got to be kidding. What was that hidden agenda then?
TG:I therefore didn’t sign it as it added nothing to any campaign I’m involved in. It was a petition to boost Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo. Sorry but that is not my priority.
Mary: I didn't expect you to sign it, actually, since it had that bit about not making anti-Semitism the cornerstone to activism, you couldn't sign it. It also stated that smear campaigns were not going to be tolerated. That would put you out of a hobby. The petition was indeed penned by myself and Gilad, together with two Palestinians and a Canadian. The title was given by yet another Palestinian who did not compose it, but who read it and said that the only thing he would add was the title, so that it was clear what the point was. It was not about us at all, but of course, it stresses the issues we have been focussing on, namely the ROR and the will to serve the Palestinians and not put conditions on them in order to work towards the goal of their obtaining of rights. That is why many people, over half of whom Palestinians, signed it. I don't know... maybe they had to first ask you if it was a good thing. You obviously know what is best for them.
On JPUK I said I didn't consider Shamir to be anti-Semitic, and I even stated clearly that I read him only very occasionally, so I am not even the perfect judge. Of the hundreds of writers, he is not among my preferred and I am not that familiar with his material, but at any rate, I would neither defend nor attack him for his ideas just because others insisted I should do so. This is quite different from being his supporter!!!! As a matter of fact, I am not at all one of his supporters, although I am not going to go into public attacks because people think they can pressure me to do so. I can say I will not attack many people, and this does not make me a supporter! It is your obsession with him that is the thing that is so ridiculous. It is also your "guilt by affiliation" way of thinking that is so flawed.
"I read him only very occasionally, so I am not even the perfect judge."
thecutter
Even occasionally, he is incredibly antisemitic.
So if that is not your judgement, you are an idiot or a liar.
I'm willing to accept either.
Av, you are just a garden variety racist who doesn't even write, so why should I care about your opinion?
Mary about Greenstein: "I happen to hang out with has been xxxx, so I don't think that your moral superiority trip is going to hold out much longer unless you think that morals are variable and applicable on an individual basis."
Mary what you are saying about Greenstein is damn right. We are dealing here with xxx. In short, a man who xxxxx is not really a person that should preach ethics to others.
Mary, about my opinion;
Doesn't matter why you should care, the fact remains that you do care.
We feel sorry for Gilad's parents. But we also blame them for not injecting morals in his sorry ass.
Aty least Gilad has parents... unlike maggots that hatch in a pile of dung and spread it throughout their pathetic life.
Isaiah, chapter 17:
Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap
It is so disingenuous for Mary to imply that she is surprised that Jews react to the themes of Jewish Power (ie the Jewish world conspiracy), Christ-killing and holocaust denial which Shamir Eisen and Atzmon are trying to introduce into the Palestinians solidarity movement. These themes have nothing at all to do with Palestinians and can only harm their cause. It is Messrs Shamir, Eisen and Atzmon who began by shifting the focus. Of course Jewish activists feel we have to respond in some way to these provocations, and then they accuse us of shifting the focus! Typical double-bind tactics.
Deborah
You are the one who is obsessed with Christ-Killing, Deborah. In fact, you confuse accusations with the idea that some people actually "do" identify with the ancient inhabitants of Israel.
Why is it that all of your discussion is about what is good for the "movement"? Do you really know what is good for it? Tony insisted that when he says he's a Jew, it shuts Zionists up. What does that mean? Is it even true?
Is there really a movement when there is negligence in promoting the Right of Return? I am always utterly astounded by the actual lack of campaigning for that idea by almost all people in the "movement". Isn't it more damaging to the Palestinian cause to insist that the Palestinians made a terrible choice when they voted in Hamas and basically imply that they get what they deserve from the "international community"? Why should conditions be put upon Palestinians? There should be no conditions, as it is their rights that are being violated! First must they be "tamed" and "instructed" to accept the values that are important to some Secular (or not) Jews in the UK? This isn't actually more damaging that talking about the abuse of the victim status that many Jews use in order to excuse all and sundry?
Atzmon is not a Holocaust Denier, nor is Eisen. I don't know Shamir well enough to judge, but I don't think that's his gig. He's into religion, just like you are, so he promotes things from that point of view. I don't care about religion, so I just don't read that kind of analysis very much.
Why do you feel that talking about Jewish power is being provoked? Do you believe there is no such thing?
Maccoby: It is Messrs Shamir, Eisen and Atzmon who began by shifting the focus.
G: Check it out Lady Maccoby. Leave out the notion of holocaust denial, it is just too Judeo centric for me to refer to. I will challenge your brain (take it as a complement). If the Palestinians (as well as Arabs and Muslims) are indeed the last victim of Hitler, then the History of WW2 belongs to them as much as it belong to you, me or anyone else. If you didn’t get it yet, the Holocaust is now presented officially as a pretext for a war against Iran. So the subject is more than relevant. It is even crucial. It is the essence of the Humanist cause!
However, I myself do not care about the Holocaust that much. But I do care about the MEANING of the holocaust. I do care as well about the MEANING of Christ killing (rather than about Christ Killing per se). But the problem with you and the other Greensteins of the world is that you do not know the difference between History, Historical Narrative, Historical discourse, historical fact and MEANING. Sadly enough, you are too shallow to realise how stupid you happen to be. Thus, you keep bombard us with your embarrassing superficial arguments.
Maccobyl: Of course Jewish activists feel we have to respond in some way to these provocations, and then they accuse us of shifting the focus! Typical double-bind tactics.
G: Apparently you do not understand what double bind stands for. There is no such a thing as ‘double bind tactics’. There are tactics that expose people being in a state of a ‘double Bind’. Indeed you and your Judeological friends are in a severe state of double bind. You are locked in a ‘no win situation’ (I am afraid that your Shtetle friend Brian Robinson realised it at the time, he rescued himself by moving to Engage). You insist to act as a Jew as well as humanists. Yet you do not know how to bridge the gap between the 2.
I will make it very simple for you my dear queen. There is no such a bridge.
You can either choose orthodoxy or acting simply as a humanist regardless of your Jewishness. The reason is simple. THERE IS NO JEWISH SECULAR SCHOOL of HUMANISM/UNIVERSALISM. The reason is simple; there is no Jewish anthropocentric school of thought. If you know one please enlighten us.
With love G
Have you noticed that Polytechnic Gangster Greenie is keeping quiet?
Do you think that he is still that enthusiastic about historical facts?
Gilad, as the spiritual father of the palestinian people desired to assist Hitler and, in return, allow hitler to rid him of his jewish problem, it is unfathomable that you hold the opinion that the arabs squatting in the disputed territories were the victims of Hitler.
Is there some historical fact that you are disputing, Gilly?
Don't worry Iby, we are not talking about Hitler (for a change).... We are after a righteous Jew who visits here often enough. He preachs us about ethics. He is one of those who tell us and the PSC what is good for the Palestinians.
However, we have learned yesterday that amongst his very many convictions he was as well engaged in xxx. We just can’t make our mind whether he did it as an ‘individual’ or as a ‘Jew’.
I would assume a righteous person would easily be able to tell us and the PSC what is good for the Palestinians.
I would also assume that some prior criminal activity would not disqualify one in despensing wisdom.
Would I would imagine that a born and bred antisemite would be disqualified from such.
Gilad Atzmon,
You can follow Israel Shamir and become a Friar.
I know what is good for so called Palestinians:
Embracing Judaism.
I know also what is good for you Gilad Atzmon and Jewish friends: Just go to hell.
Gilad Atzmon, you wanted to be a normal human being, but you don't seem to be able to get rid of your Jewish mindset. Just let yourself go.
With stories like this anyone who can shift the focus away from Palestinians is doing them a favor. If the world really knew what these people are like and the press stopped hiding the truth about the way a large number of Arab/Muslims view life the international community would drop them like yesterdays news.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spa...ges/
829440.html
But the world actually knows what these people are like and the press stopped hiding the truth about the way a large number of Arab/Muslims view life.
And still they are supported.
Makes you wonder what the agenda is all about. And why they fear a non-existant Jewish lobby.
Abu Foxman,
Here's a link to a site where you can read more about the religion of peace and its noble deeds:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
We want Israel to be destroyed and an Islamic state based on the precepts of the religion of PEACE be established, where The Talmudon, a.k.a Gilad Aztmon, can live in eternal bliss, playing his sax in a Jewish Mosque, that is, a Mosque erected on the ruins of a Jewish synagogue.
Bless you Jihad Abu Az Zaman.
It is interesting that even Atzmon's attacks on me mirror those of the Zionists he purports to oppose. Let's face it Gilad, you are a Zionist, which of course is merely the other face of Zionism.
I see you accept the Zionist version of this event at face value. Fine. No doubt you accept all the rest of their myths too!
No of course you weren't involved in any hate crimes. You were merely a good member of the Israeli Defence Forces and unlike many members, had no objections to killing Palestinians or enforcing the occupation.
You seem to be a hypocrite as well as, according to Lenni Brenner, a mediocre jazz player
Tony Greenstein
So Mary,
given that Shamir now regularly regales with talk of the Jewish alliance, that he believes Auschwitz was an internment camp, that he even criticises the British National Party as Jewish run, do you revise your opinion of him.
I notice that I've Atzmon rattled as he seems to have done some research into my background. I suppose the accusation of being a common and garden anti-Semite has got to him.
And no, relieving the banks of their ill-gotten gains is no crime. It's taking money off those already poor that is the offence. Hence why I advise people how reduce their profits in the courts.
So Gilad, now we've established you are a Zionist, are you still being paid by the Israeli state?
>>On JPUK I said I didn't consider Shamir to be anti-Semitic, and I even stated clearly that I read him only very occasionally, so I am not even the perfect judge. Of the hundreds of writers, he is not among my preferred and I am not that familiar with his material, but at any rate, I would neither defend nor attack him for his ideas just because others insisted I should do so. This is quite different from being his supporter!!!! As a matter of fact, I am not at all one of his supporters, although I am not going to go into public attacks because people think they can pressure me to do so. I can say I will not attack many people, and this does not make me a supporter! It is your obsession with him that is the thing that is so ridiculous. It is also your "guilt by affiliation" way of thinking that is so flawed.
thecutter | Homepage | 02.21.07 - 11:18 pm | #
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"I read him only very occasionally, so I am not even the perfect judge."
thecutter
Even occasionally, he is incredibly antisemitic.
So if that is not your judgement, you are an idiot or a liar.
I'm willing to accept either.
Ibraham Av | Homepage | 02.22.07 - 3:27 am | #
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Av, you are just a garden variety racist who doesn't even write, so why should I care about your opinion?
thecutter | Homepage | 02.22.07 - 8:04 am | #
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Mary about Greenstein: "I happen to hang out with has been xxxxx, so I don't think that your moral superiority trip is going to hold out much longer unless you think that morals are variable and applicable on an individual basis."
Mary what you are saying about Greenstein is damn right. We are dealing here with a xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In short, a man who xxxxxxxxxxx is not really a person that should preach ethics to others.
More important than the ego of Atzmon is the beginnings of a breach between Jews and the Zionist leaders of their communities.
Of course if Atzmon and his holocaust denier friends have their way, then they will be forced back together again.
The Jewish Grassroots Revolt (The Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadians)
Special to Canadian Dimension February 19,2007
A grassroots revolt is underway in Jewish communities throughout the world, a revolt that has panicked the elite organizations that have long functioned as official mouthpieces for the community.
The latest sign of this panic is the recent publication by the American Jewish Committee of an essay by Alvin H. Rosenfeld, entitled "'Progressive' Jewish Thought and the New Anti-Semitism," which accuses progressive Jews of abetting a resurgent wave of anti-Semitism by publicly criticizing Israel.
This is the latest attempt to conflate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism in order to silence or marginalize criticism of Israel. This approach is widely used in Canada. Upon becoming CEO of the Canadian Jewish Congress, Bernie Farber declared that one of his goals was to "educate Canadians about the links between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism."
It is misleading for groups like the CJC to pretend that the Jewish community is united in support of Israel. A growing number of Jews around the world are joining the chorus of concern about the deteriorating condition of the Palestinians in the occupied territories as well as the inferior social and economic status of Israel's own Palestinian population.
In a world where uncritical support for Israel is becoming less and less tenable due to the expanding human rights disaster in the West Bank and Gaza, leaders of Jewish communities outside Israel have circled their wagons, heightened their pro-Israel rhetoric, and demonized Israel's critics. These leaders imply that increased concerns about Israel do not result from that state's actions, but from an increase in anti-Semitism.
Despite this effort to absolve Israel of responsibility for its treatment of Palestinians, Jewish opposition is growing and becoming more organized. On February 5th a group in Britain calling itself Jewish Independent Voices published an open letter in The Guardian newspaper in which they distanced themselves from "Those who claim to speak on behalf of Jews in Britain and other countries [and who] consistently put support for the policies of an occupying power above the human rights of the occupied people." Among the signatories of the letter were Nobel-prize winning playwright Harold Pinter, filmmaker Mike Leigh, writer John Berger, and many others.
This development follows the emergence of similar groups in Sweden (Jews for Israeli-Palestinian Peace), France (Union Juive Francaise pour la paix, Rencontre Progressiste Juive), Italy (Ebrei c
This development follows the emergence of similar groups in Sweden (Jews for Israeli-Palestinian Peace), France (Union Juive Francaise pour la paix, Rencontre Progressiste Juive), Italy (Ebrei contro l'occupazione), Germany (Jüdische Stimme für gerechten Frieden in Nahost), Belgium (Union des Progressistes Juifs de Belgique), the United States (Jewish Voice for Peace, Brit Tzedek, Tikkun, the Bronfman-Soros initiative), South Africa, and others, including the umbrella organization European Jews for a Just Peace and the numerous groups within Israel itself.
In Canada, the Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadians (ACJC) has been founded as an umbrella organization bringing together Jewish individuals and groups from across the country who oppose Israel's continued domination of the West Bank and Gaza.
Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, nor does it "bleed into anti-Semitism," a formulation that says essentially the same thing. Some genuine anti-Semites do use Israel as a cover for maligning the Jewish people as a whole, but it is fallacious to argue that anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic because anti-Semites attack Israel. There are some anti-Semites who support Israel because they are Christian fundamentalists who see the return of Jews to Jerusalem as a precondition for the return of Christ and the conversion of Jews to Christianity, or because they are xenophobes who want to get rid of Jews in their midst. Anti-Semites take positions in support of and in opposition to Israel.
It is wrong to criticize all Jews for Israel's wrongdoings, yet Israel's leadership and its supporters in the Diaspora consistently encourage this view by insisting that Israel acts on behalf of the entire Jewish people. This shifts blame for Israel's crimes onto the shoulders of all Jews. But Jewish critics of Israel demonstrate through their words and deeds that the Jewish community is not monolithic in its support of Israel.
Defenders of Israel often argue that Israel is forced to do what it does - to destroy people's homes, to keep them under the boot of occupation, to seal them into walled ghettos, to brutalize them daily with military incursions and random checkpoints - to protect its citizens from Palestinian violence. Palestinian violence, however, is rooted in the theft of their land, the diversion of their water, the violence of the occupation, and the indignity of having one's own very existence posed as a "demographic threat."
To justify Israel's continued occupation and theft of Palestinian land, the state and its defenders attempt to deny Palestinian suffering, arguing instead that Palestinian resentment is rooted not in Israeli violence, but rather in Islam, or the "Arab mentality," or a mystical anti-Semitism inherent in Arab or Muslim culture. Consequently, pro-Israel advocacy depends upon on the active dissemination of Islamophobia. Not surprisingly, engen
Not surprisingly, engendering hatred in this manner inflames anti-Jewish sentiment among Arabs and Muslims. None of this is a recipe for making Jews safe.
Jewish people can help avert the catastrophic effects of Israeli behaviour, but only by taking a stand in opposition to it.
This article was posted on Tuesday, February 20th, 2007 at 11:39 pm and is filed under Palestine / Israel Canadian Issues and Politics
Sorry Tony, but the Jews are very aware of the suffering of the Arabs in the disputed territories.
But they were suffering before the territories were in dispute.
And their suffering is often at their own hands.
Palestinian violence is rooted in antisemitism. The same that you preach.
Tony , god knows what you are on about,
So far it looks as if you are engaged in Greenstein's xxxxx denial.
we are interested in your past, xxx tell us about it. We are not interested in your Idiotic politics. You have nothing clever to say about Palestine or Jews.
.. just try to open our eyes, tell us how come xxx with so many xxxx is trying to suggest to us what is right and what is wrong...what is moral and what isn't...it is really beyond me/us
This is one of those debates that gets more and more rancourous and personal over time, but in which all the rancour and personal attacks from both sides generate more and more heat, but no illumination whatsoever. Since both sides are wrong, and at least one side appears to completely lack a sense of proportion about the beliefs of the other, and their significance, this is hardly suprising.
Holocaust scepticism among dissidents of Israeli Jewish origin is a new phenomenon, though it parallels similar widespread beliefs among Arabs, which have now spread to some Jews. Those like Paul Eisen who are victims of this latest delusion are not fascists, not even remotely, even though their formal views may lead them to rub shoulders with geriatric Nazi cultists. Such proximity is purely conjunctural. The fundamental motives involved are 100% in opposition to each other.
The Nazi nostagics deny the holocaust because they dream of laying the basis for another holocaust. The Israeli holocaust sceptics merely mistakenly and mechanically deduce from the totalitarian lying and vicious racism of the Zionists, which cynically uses the holocaust as a propaganda weapon to justify repression of the Palestinians that bears a strong resemblance to Nazism, that the Nazi genocide itself may be a myth.
It is obvious when you look at the underlying causes of these phenomena, that the motivations are at 180% degrees to each other. The Nazi cultists are motivated by racism, pure and simple. The Eisen's of this world are motivated by midirected anti-racism, and revulsion at the crimes of their own, Israeli-Jewish, ruling class. To treat them as the same, or either proximate, political phenomena, is wrong, and does give some credibility to Gilad Atzmon's accusation of Jewish communalism directed against Jews Against Zionism (criticism which I also believe is over the top).
The holocaust scepticism of the likes of Eisen and the small number of Jewish dissidents who share his views can be put into perspective when you look at the growth of the belief in 9/11 conspiracy theories in the United States.
On Al Jazeera last night, a poll was referred to which stated that around 30% of the American population suspects that the Bush administration was in some way involved in 9/11, either by commission or deliberate omission. This growth of 9/11 conspiracy theories in the US is a recent phenomenon, the result of the exposure of the Bush Administration's deliberate lying over Iraq being extrapolated by large numbers of Americans to 9/11. And of course, 9/11 only happened just over 5 years ago.
The potential for similar misguided theorising over an event that happened half a century ago, and is used in propaganda terms in a similar way, once Zionism begins to lose its authority among Jews, is so much the greater.
In this context, one does not have to agree with the political views of Gilad Atzmon, or even Paul Eisen, to maintain some level of fraternal debate
(continued)
In this context, one does not have to agree with the political views of Gilad Atzmon, or even Paul Eisen, to maintain some level of fraternal debate with them. In this regard, I think the SWP's attitude to Gilad Atzmon is broadly correct, and the outcry against them is very unfortunate and does indeed play into the hands of the Zionists that I believe the comrades of Jews Against Zionist sincerely oppose and whose racism they loathe. This argument is being falsely conducted, and is really generating only heat, not light.
And Gilad laughs all the way to the bank. Playing you all for fools.
He believes not a word he preaches, just likes to hold the puppet strings.
Ian, I agree that it becomes personal, and that in a way is unavoidable since it seems that it is Tony and co who are setting that agenda. Is reacting a mistake? It could be, but when one reads certain things, it just comes naturally. As if we were all sitting in a bar and are allowed to say our bit.
Tony, I can't believe you call Gilad a Zionist. Why is he one? Because he was born in Israel and like all Israelis he did his mandatory service in the fucking army? I think it takes a lot more than that to be qualified as a Zionist. Of course he had objections to punishing Palestinians and never misses a chance to denounce all of that. Since then, I would say he redeemed himself, because he denounces and shows his anger at what Israel represents, rather than blaming something else.
So, xxxxxx is doing the working class a favour? It is relieving the bank of some ill-gotten gains? Explain this to me, as I just don't seem to get it. This kind of logical deduction is simply beyond me.
I know what your problem is, Tony. I understand you, as well. You think that it is urgent, vital and necessary to set yourself apart from others. Within the human family, you are part of a particular group. Within the Jewish community, you are different and march to a different drum. In either case, whatever you do becomes more important. I think perhaps where we don't seem to agree is that for your Jewish community it might be important for you to make differentiation, but within the human family, it doesn't matter at all what group you say you belong to. If you are supportive, unconditionally, to the Palestinian people, you will be accepted by them and you can work together to achieve with them the freedom that they long for. If you address them as someone who knows better and especially impose your Western, Secular, Working Class (or what YOU consider working class, including stealing if it suits you) values upon them, they will send it back to you, because it is useless.
Gilad and I have actually discussed your situation. We think that it's time that we started to see that you make some sense. You are right, the movement you think you are part of doesn't work with people like us in it. Actually, we are all too different to work together. The goals are not the same. It might be better if you continue, straight on, and stay in your ghetto, convincing your brethren of your immaculate morality, because it doesn't wash here, and you are actually just wasting everyone's time. I think there is more to be said on this, perhaps later we will say more.
I just love it when supporters of antisemitism fight it out. No matter who dies, it's a win-win situation for the Jews.
Fire another shot, Mary. But be careful not to turn the gun around.
By the way, we wouldn't want to share Western Morality with Arabs. That would keep them from murdering their daughters because they were raped by their sons.
We wouldn't want to stop that, now would we?
Iby, I don't think that Tony is a supporter of Anti Semitism. I certainly am not, nor is Gilad. The only racists around here are you Zionist slugs.
I would delete you, but Michael is having fun with your comments. I hate to ruin Michael's fun.
All three of you support antisemitism. You and Gilad are better at it then Tony. That is the only difference.
Tony, what a turgid load of waffle you have posted. What exactly are you trying to say?
Not much, it seems.
However, you’re impotent little xxxx illuminates the fact that it doesn’t matter if you xxxxx Palestinian land or someone xxxxx: just make sure your defence is that you come from a Jewish bloodline….
Is your last name Greenstein or Soprano?
Sarah, It appears your racism is overpowering your argument.
Reread what you wrote. You are more concerned with making antisemitic remarks then discovering any truths.
And exactly whose land was stolen? Do you have the deed? Or is this just another Islamic fascist party line?
is your name Greenstein or Soprano?
Sarah, you are vicious !!!
Ian: “I believe the comrades of Jews Against Zionist sincerely oppose and whose racism they loathe. This argument is being falsely conducted, and is really generating only heat, not light”
I as well believe that JAZ's sincerely oppose racism and Zionism. Yet, sincerity means very little in the case of Greenstein, Rance or Blackwell. More over the ‘Not In My Name’ philosophy is dated and pathetic. It didn’t stop Blair in Iraq and it won’t stop Israel.
However, we are not against what JAZ say or believe in. Though we do not agree with what they may believe in. we defend their right to express their thoughts. The problem we have with them has something to do with the gate- keeping tactics they employ.
Personally speaking, I am very interested in what they have to say. They embody the essence of Jewish self centered philosophy. Monitoring their cyber activity I ve learned a lot and I shared it all with my readers.
However, as Mary mentioned above. We do not really know what solidarity movement they refer to. The people they oppose happen to be the most poetic and creative people in this discourse. The ideas that some of us already introduced to the discourse are there to stay and to be picked by others. We identify Zionism with Jewishness. We identify JAZ tactics with Zionism. We then try to learn what Jewishness stands for...We always present ideological and metaphysical argument. In response they call us names (Nazis, AS, H, Deniers etc’).
Let me tell you Ian, tt will take more than that to silence any of us...
It didn’t stop Blair in Iraq and it won’t stop Israel.
Gilad, nothing you and your pathetic group of hatemongers can do will affect the Israeli position one iota.
You'll do more good standing in front of a bulldozer. The publicity, though short-lived, will help generate the propaganda your ilk loves.
Do you need airfare? We'll have a concert to raise the funds.
Ian Donovan's suggestion that holocaust denial is simply another variant of more general conspiracy theories is ludicrous. HD has been articulated almost entirely by neo-Nazis intent on rehabilitating the crimes of the Nazis and are not equivalent to the various flaky theories concerning e.g. 9/11. Their motivation is entirely different, though of course there are those who maintain that there was a hidden Jewish conspiracy behind 9/11.
As for Atzmon's nonsense concerning myself. Of course none of it is true and he would have done well to check his stories rather than speak to his Zionist friends, as he will soon find out.
Tony Greenstein
Tony, your XXXX is on the net, do you want to see the URL?
Tony let put it straight, weren’t you XXXXX
You see Tony, XXXXXX may be cool, but XXXXXX IS somewhat revolting….
As Sarah put it above: The Israelis take Palestinian land, Tony XXXXX , the Israelis smash Palestinian towns Tony XXXXXX…..
Tony, i wonder, what is your moral ground?
Tony, save the yourself the embarrassment, we have seen the original news papers… I think that I ll have to add the original PDF with your XXXXX to my 1001 lies page.
I wonder if this would shut you up once and for all.
Gilad,
thank you for your kind observations. I am not responsible for what is on the net.
What you put on your own web page is entirely your own affair, however you would be well advised not to do any such thing.
I'm sorry you do not understand my previous message, however I hope to enlighten you soon.
Tony Greenstein
Tony you play games. Why can’t you just tell us the truth? We have read about you and your XXXXX. We have seen the original papers, what is your explanation???
again what is your moral ground?
Gilad,
I can assure you that I am playing no games. I shall, in due course, send you a private e-mail which will make things clear to you.
As for the question of morality, I am surprised you know how to spell the word.
Tony Greenstein
I am not in accord with bringing up TG's real or imagined criminal record.
Sometimes one must do things like defend one's self physically and when one does this one risks arrest and conviction, especially if one is at the time representing "anti Zionism" (in no matter how distorted a way) and one's attacker represents and is aligned with Zionism and "the forces of law and order."
If TG was attempting to be a "Robin Hood" I for one won't hold it against him, it would be something honorable that he has done. If TG was once a common criminal who is rehabilitated I wouldn't hold that against him either.
If TG once was in dire straights and did something illegal (and especially not violent against innocents) in order to survive I would not be angy over it, especially if the illegal thing he did was against a damned bank.
In my country, the USA, poor people and especially ethnic minorities are victims of not only frame ups and police concoctions but of selective enforcement, selective prosecutions and selective sentencing. Perhaps it's not like that in England?
In my country sometimes progressive political demonstrators are framed up and sometimes they do things either to defend their persons, defend the persons of fellow demonstrators or defend the right to demonstrate. Sometimes these acts get them arrested. These are good and honorable people. I was twice in that situation, charged with multiple felonies and misdemeanors.
Malcom X was an ex con, a drug abuser and a criminal hustler who was rehabilitated through Islam and later became a great leader of an oppressed people.
Martin Luther King was a jailbird.
Graduates of technical colleges have valid opinions as do illiterate peasants.
Let's please stick with the issues, which is where TG is the weakest. He and others are trying to foist a judeophilic agenda onto the Palestinians. That is what should be opposed.
Eugene, we are talking about XXXXX rather than lefty heroic activity. but we expect TG to come with the good rather than us publishing the links. we ask tony for his moral ground...
Tony, talking about morality.
I have NO CRIMINAL RECORD. Eisen HAS NO CRIMINAL RECORD. Please do not send me a private email, Just tell us all, how do you explain your XXXXX.
And this is probably just a tip of the iceberg…
By the way Tony, you are welcome to say that it all happened many years ago. you' ve changed. We will respect it though you still try to spread lies about your disastrous past.
You see Tony; it is rather easy to be a bully. It is very easy to use your favourite tactics against you. In other words, you may have changed but you have never stopped being a bully
What a show - When neo-nazis tear each other apart over feigned morality.
Survivor, move over. This is certainly more entertaining.
Who will win? The failed musician who is in bed with holocaust deniers? Or will it be the thief who back Islamic Fascism?
Tune in next week when these paragons of antisemitism spit at each other to the death!
I've been a way a week and come back to this - Tony's attempted smear of Deir Yassin Remembered and now his past.
Tony, I for one couldn't care less what you did or didn't do in your youth. But now, why don't you stop your smearing and join the human race?
Eugene, for sure, I have nothing against a person who either 1) acts in good faith and does no harm to others or 2) feels remorse for wrongs that have been done and is determined to compensate for the damages they have done. This is what I suggest for Israelis all the time, to accept responsibility for the wrongs done, truthfully and because they realise that their actions have consequences, and to recognise who the damaged party is and not shift blame or try to weasle out of paying back.
Tony spends most of his time commenting on blogs, and half of what he does is condemn other people for their bad character and acts he himself determines are damaging, and he asks people to boycott them, smear them, block them from being allowed a chance to be heard to join in community initiatives. It is from THAT pulpit that the things that Tony does assume a sinister light. He is great at smearing people, saying they are racists and haters and promoting and inciting towards evilness. He calls them Zionists on a anti-Zionist blogs, he calls them anti-Semites on Jewish ones. It's all just a game of damaging. Well, when things have been found that are not opinion, not invented, but rather are facts, (perhaps better kept private, but Tony does not stop smearing, and he doesn't seem to realise that people are then going to go looking into just WHO this person is who tells others what to do and how to act. Things come up, since we live in an age where access to this information is simple to obtain).
He's pretty proud of his past. In Harry's Place (loathe the place, but it's quite good for laughs as well...) Tony said: "As for epitaphs, I care little once I'm dead but I suspect my achievements will outweigh yours, which will probably consist of having met me!"
So, his past is something that he does actually discuss. And don't tell me that didn't make you all laugh as well! I've known Tony (internettally) for around 6 or 7 years, and modesty is not one of his virtues. And yes, Eugene, it would be more profitable to simply show his position (conditional support of Palestinians and constant gatekeeping of those whose ideas are not just like his own) for what it is, useless to work in activism for Palestinians, distracting, Judeocentric, etc... I know, but as I said, if one lives by slinging around insinuations, they had better have a very candid record themselves, and if not, they should at least quit judging others as if they are the arbitors of high moral standards.
Now, what is more troubling is what Tony wrote here: "And no, relieving the banks of their ill-gotten gains is no crime. It's taking money off those already poor that is the offence. Hence why I advise people how reduce their profits in the courts."
Pray tell, Tony, what does "XXXXX" have to do with relieving the banks of their ill-gotten gains? How is this to be seen as a revolutionary act for the good of
Pray tell, Tony, what does XXXXX have to do with relieving the banks of their ill-gotten gains? How is this to be seen as a revolutionary act for the good of the working class? Is it helping the poor in some way? Is it giving advice to the poor for ways to scam the banks in court? I really don't get it, and that is a fact. Perhaps XXXXXXX, but you are the one who is saying what you did "is no crime". Therefore, you admit that what the Jewish Chronicle wrote was not only true, but that it was morally justified and ethical.
Let's be honest about it - this thread is a farce. We have Tony Greenstein being accused of being a Zionist by Gilad Atzmon and Gilad Atzmon accusing Tony Greenstein of being a Zionist.
It reminds me of the Iran/Iraq war with Sadaam Hussein and Khomeini accusing each other of being Zionists.
Which one of you is Sadaam and who wants to be called the Ayatollah?
Tony Greenstein doesn't seem to like Gilad Atzmon and Paul Eisen because Eisen thinks no Jews were killed at Auschwitz. Eisen of course defends himself for that charge as he has read publications by Ernst Zundel - now languishing in prison. Tony Greenstein thinks that is a load of nonsense as he thinks of course Jews were murdered at Auschwitz but the Zionists did it.
The ideas of Zundel et al have been exposed as false by many people - not least Deborah Lipstadt and the ideas of Greenstein have also been exposed by many people - not least by me on this link
Paul you say: "Tony, I for one couldn't care less what you did or didn't do in your youth. But now, why don't you stop your smearing and join the human race?"
Once he joins humanity he will become just another Paul Eisen. He obviously prefers to remain a JAZ.
As you know, becoming a 'mensch' is more than a mere decision, it means developing a sense of empathy. It entails performance.
Oops - first paragraph should read - We have Tony Greenstein accusing Gilad Atzmon of being a Zionist and Gilad Atzmon accusing Tony Greenstein of being a Zionist.
With so many accusations flying around - and so many Zionists in our midsts - its not surprising I made that simple error!
Reading this thread anyone might think a Zionist is a bad thing. Very strange indeed.
It's Purim this week - hamantaschen anyone?
Mary you ask:
“Tony, what does XXXXXX
Mary please don’t underestimate Mr. Greenstein revolutionary commitment. His philosophy is far reaching. He is not only about ‘working class politics’. He is very interested as well in ‘playing class’ hence, the toys.
It is rather possible that Greenstein is convinced that Eisen, Shamir and myself are made out of Lego. But now he learns that even Lego toys can hit back and hard.
Saying that. we are yet to do much, we just asking for Mr. Greenstein’s moral ground.
Anyhow, I really believe that story of Greenstein can make a nice episode for Toys Story 3.
Before I engage in writing the cinematic episode I would like to ask Mr. Greenstein. What kind of toys was he after in his thirties?
Mikey, talking about Purim, what do you think, is Greenstein Mordechay or Esther?
However when it comes to Paul, he has never said 'no Jews were killed at Auschwiz'. You have to be very careful with your words...
Mikey: Eisen thinks no Jews were killed at Auschwitz. Eisen of course defends himself for that charge as he has read publications by Ernst Zundel
Dear Mikey
If you are who I think you are you know perfectly well that my views go a touch further than "no Jews were killed at Auschwitz". And regarding my having read Ernst Zundel, whatever revisionist literature I have or have not read, it's a damn sight more than you have.
So why don't you stop being a smart-arse and address some issues?
Ouch!.. Being attacked by Paul (Eisen?) is like being attacked by a dead sheep. Let us be quite clear about it.. 1 simple question does Paul Eisen believe Jews were killed by gas in gas chambers at Auschwitz. A simple yes/no will do.
We can have a Purim Party - Gilad Atzmon on Sax, Rabbi Tony Greenstein reading the Megillah and paul Eisen waving a rattle and stamping his foot every time the name Achasverush is mentioned. Fancy dress - Paul Eisen dressed as Adolf Hitler and Tony Greenstein dressed as Haman.
The tradition of Purim is that everyone gets completly drunk - I know a Jewish Tribal thing - what can I say? - anyway after everyone is off their heads Tony can try playing the sax and Gilad will give him marks out of 10. Also Tony can try on paul's fancy dress - and he musnt forget the moustache!