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240c98 a55a470fbb
I have an idea... this will kind of help both sides...
See this as the first step... enact this ordinance... then we open up more homeless centers for people to get cleaned up... If we have the ordinance in place they have to get cleaned up and in a program to get a job...
and a side note for some homeless... stop smoking... you know you guys will never save a cent if you spend all your cash on that crap.
The evicting of bums from downtown Olympia has a direct correlation with the burning of the rainforest! Also, I believe that the "bums" are actually ex-CIA men who were privy to who actually shot JFK, and then they were brainwashed and turned loose! How else can you explain it? By the way, I love the pic with this story of the peanut gallery
Phil,
I have also met Carl and heard him say very nasty things about a number of people. I think you would also find it interesting if you asked him why he was evicted from the last apartment he had.
Perhaps he only shows one side of himself to you because he knows that you will help support him if he keeps up the act?
Stop the fascist Olympia dictators! How dare they tell the unemployed that they are not allowed to harass and panhandle the average citizen. This is blatant obstruction of commerce, and what's more, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint! No No we wont go!
Environmentalist:
Running the homeless out of Olympia is not going to stop forests from being torn down. In any way. At all. If that's what you want -- and I want it too -- we need to be campaigning for tall, efficient apartment buildings. We need to increase public transportation and/or build parking garages so that we can stop building parking lots. We need to run big box stores out of town. We need to start a public discussion about the inherent value of forested land. This ordinance will have no impact whatsoever.
The places the homeless will be allowed to sit are those places which are exposed to the elements. No one wants to sleep in the rain. If people are actually being harrassed (and I have NEVER seen the sort of things people are describing in the 16 years I've lived here) then they need to report these incidents to the police. They are already illegal. This point was made time after time at last night's hearing. This ordinance is about giving the police a tool with which to harrass anybody they like, at their discretion. It will create problems, not solve them.
To the rest of you: your inhumanity is appalling. A human being's value is not equivalent to that of their bank account, and it's shameful that I should even have to say that to you.
Environmentalist who wants a m
good post
Ok Phil and HoboJosh, here is a guy who has the facts straight. Read and learn.
Last night was a bit of a mob. The homeless advocates came out with an angry vengeance. They heckled anybody against them. Some of them outside even threatened to storm inside and crash the place. It is no wonder that the ordinance supporters were intimated and subdued, and free speech appeared to be a back stage to this mob. The homeless advocates were disruptive and continued beyond their time alotted and gave resounding ovations for anybody that was on their side, including the registered sex offender who lives downtown and complained that he couldn't get a job. Indeed, everybody wanted to solve national problems and every problem under the sun and didnt' understand what the ordinance was about.
The problem in part was that they were blinded by their rage. They only saw this as "you are for us or against us," even though everybody on the Council cares about homeless issues. The proposed ordinance is not targeting homeless but antisocial behavior that makes downtown a less inviting place to visit and live. Indeed, under the ordinance every belligerent person, homeless or not, that came out last night would be free to sit on the sidewalk next to parking lot that is next to King Solomon's reef. They could all sit on the sidewalk adjacent to the parking lot next to the Vault. It doesn't prohibit homelessness. They can stand and there are many places to sit that qualify, as noted above.
Just a clarification to those unfamiliar with misdemeanor court. The fines and jail time are maximums. Nobody ever gets a maximum jail time in misdemeanor court unless you have signficant criminal history or are dangerously violent. And nobody ever gets the maximum fines unless your rap sheet is long. Usually people get the bare minimums (here that would likely be no jail time, small fines) and are told not to do it again. Also, I believe the ordinance requires a person to be warned once first before being cited, so they have a fair warning.
Almost all of the anti-social behavior I have seen occurs on fourth avenue between Capital Way and the Clipper between 3 pm and midnight. The later it is, the worse it gets. Most of it is in front of Griswolds, and that one antique story. I feel OK down there, not especially safe but OK. I like it most of the time, but I wouldn't bring my wife, kids or mom down there after dark.
I come at this from a pro-environment pro-GMA perspective. We need to make cities more livable, so that our rural areas and forests are not over-run by development. Some communities like Bellingham have been highly successful. Some are failing miserably in creating a good urban place for EVERYONE to want to invest in and work and live. I like most all of the characters downtown. However, the small subset of angry, heckling sidewalk sitters are a different crowd from everybody else. Since they usually come down around 5pm and leave around 10 or 11, I do wonder if they are downtown homeless or are just bored and occasionally angry youth.
Bellingham, also a fairly liberal town, has been much more successful at increasing its downtown liveability and thereby decreasing the pressure on the County's rural areas. It's not just a homeless issue. The ordinance is about livability and increasing urban densities and thereby protecting the rural environment. So, let's face it. This is where us pro-environment liberals unfortunately are on the other side of the fence from the homeless advocates liberals. This is too bad. The ordinance doesn't ban all sidewalk sitting - only in 1 percent of the city. It doesn't ban standing. It just tries to address some of the more frequent complaints of residents. It doesn't ban the homeless. There are even numerous places in downtown where they can sit down.
We seem to have a few people downtown who are not contributing to society.They need to be forcibly removed or fed to the sharks. These people are unnecessary & will not be missed.Our downtown will only be better off without them.
HoboJosh
I have seen your posts before. You mock normal people and call them "housies". You're at media island. You profess to enjoy your shiftless lifestyle. I hope you enjoy it when that tooth abcesses or when the security guard is escorting you out of the clinic with the test results in your hand. You're not from here, why don't YOU move? What happened to that winter job in Arizona or where ever it was?
You don't care about downtown, just your right to be a bum and bug people for money.
Some o us didn't make the meeting as we have this thing called a job and responsibilities.
I'm with you Stupified!
Hobojosh, you move. You are the problem not us. We love our town and want to improve it and you drag it down by hogging the sidewalks, harassing for money and so on.
See, now they try to harass and intimidate us online. Just can't win.
Next thing you know they will ask us to to post a quarter to their Paypal account.
How many of you people were at the meeting, huh? If you were there, you would have noticed the outcry against the ordinance. You people are idiots. "Let's sit behind our computers at home and complain about why these ordinances should pass, while folks who really care are standing before the city council pleading to them why the ordinances shouldn't pass". You people are idiots!!! If you don't like downtown, MOVE!!!!!! Morons!!!
I was at Goodwill today around noon and good ole' Carl Willis was there wandering around. He was playing the donated video games while sitting in the donated furniture. At one point, he bothered to get up and meander over to the CD's and check them out.
I pointed him out to a friend who was with me as the "guy in the paper this morning about the homeless" and the cashier confirmed it was him and he's there many days a week and just hangs out, especially when the weather is bad. They repeatedly have to ask him to get off the furniture and stop sleeping in the aisles. According to the laws, they can not evict him from their building without cause such as shoplifting.
I can vouch for not only how filthy Carl looked, but how horried he smelled. He was creepy, eerie and intimidating.
If he can lay around Goodwill all day playing donated games and reading donated books, he can step out of Goodwill, stand in the rain to bathe and get a job.
As for his signage, I'm sure he joined his buddies at the downtown library/homeless shelter where he used his free library card to jump on a computer and printed it off especially for the meeting. I refuse to partake in the services the downtown library has to offer because they cater to the homeless. You can't find a clean piece of furniture to sit on because the homeless are filling them all up, snoring, peeing & puking in them. When I complained, I was told if they kicked the "poor homeless citizens" out, they'll have to kick out all the little babies in carriers too... HUH?
So tell me Phil, just what have you done to help Carl besides sticking up for him in this forum?
Hes been homeless for 26 years. Have you helped him get housing?
Hey Phil, got a quarter?
I like Phil. He makes me laugh. Such an enabler.
"Get off your ritheuous perch buddy. Your in the minority here."
Indeed. Like a communist at a Klan meeting.
Oh and try reading our posts a little cloers. You might learn something useful for you friend. Like accountability for ones life.
Struck a nerve? Nope, just making my point. And it seems you are the one judging other you have never met.
Get over yourself Phil.
Perhaps you should read "Not asking for changes" early post. How he was poor and got out of it.
And I have et some of these people just for the record.
I made some good points and I stand by them. If this Carl is homeless for 26 years then that should be an obvious red flag.
Get off your ritheuous perch buddy. Your in the minority here.
Aw, shucks Al. Did I upset you? Strike a nerve maybe? Because you and your buddies on this page can't keep your mouths shut about someone you've never met? Whose circumstances you are entirely unaware of?
Gee, I'm real sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone. Will you ever forgive me?
Al
I hope your wife is ok. You make alot of sense. While many people feel Carl is a benifit via kindness to the planet he really is more of a parasite. Don't learn from Carl. Carl can feed the rabbits in the park all day and expect others to care for his needs. He doesn't help pay for the sanitation, rest rooms, sidewalks and parks. But for over 20 years he has plagued downtown like a common sewer rat.(albiet a nice one). HE is a taker in life. He takes resources away like they are a right to him. Food, medical,police, and many others. He steals from society. People like you Al fight for others like your wife. That makes you a just and noble person. Helping others in need....not in want.
Thanks Cody.
And just for the record, I pay over $550 a month so my wife can have the treatment she needs to keep the cancer from coming back.
How many homeless even pay for their benefits.
So don't think working means I have tons of money. It doesn't. What I do have I worked hard for and had to save for.
Al, bless you for making so much sense and for stating it so well.
Most of the people here are decent people. We just want to exercise our rights as well. Yes us working stiffs have rights too.
We don't want to hurt anyone. We do want them to get help. But it must come from someone who will ensure they will get the help they need. A church or non-prof that handles these kinds of people for example.
Giving them money and letting them act disorderly does not help them. It enables them to get out of hand and leaves them where they are now.
I have worked for places that help these people. They would come in, qualify for tons of help and then throw it all away because they had to follow some rules.
We are not asking a lot. Just leave businesses alone so they can support their families and community. Stop laying all over the sidewalk and blocking people. Letting people go about their business without feeling harassed or pressured to give money. And most important, a feeling of being safe when downtown.
Sorry that’s too much for you Phil. I guess you like seeing things the way they are.
Perhaps you and Carl need to stop feeling sorry for yourselves and look around at the other people. Yes there are others downtown besides your friend Carl. Good honest working people who support and help this community. Sorry you have a problem with that.
Sorry you have a problem with hard working tax payers who want a clean safe community for ALL. Sorry you have a problem with a positive downtown environment.
Al,
Well Said...
Phil Owen, just because we have an opinion (tired of being harrassed for money) doesn't make us bad people. If he was better than me he would have a job and be supporting a family. I supported my wife through two bouts of cancer and am still be her side.
I have helped many people in the past. Carl is a victim by choice.
Perhaps if you knew me you would find I am a decent person too. Just tired of watching my home town being turned into a camp ground and seeing people who don't work sit around and expect me to solve their problem.
Perhaps you should help Carl since you are such a big fan of his.
Or do you just like to hear yourelf talk?
Phil, I'm sure Carl is a kind and decent human being and very thankful for those who've helped him out for 26 years. Why don't you help him find a job and get some housing?
Al and others:
I know Carl well. He would never, ever be caught saying the kinds of horrible things about another person that y'all are saying about him. That is because he is kind. And decent. That makes him a better person than the rest of you.
R E S P E C T
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Respect is an attitude of acknowledging the feelings and interests of another party in a relationship, and of treating as consequential for the self the helping or harming of the other. Though most commonly referring to interpersonal relationships, it can be used between animals, groups and institutions including countries. Respect does not necessarily imply deference, but a respectful attitude rules out unconsidered selfish behaviour. The concept of respect predates, and does not rely on, the existence of the concept of rights. Like the Golden Rule, treat others the way you want to be treated.
Maybe Carl Willis needs to put down the sign and hold up a resume'? O pick up an application for a job?
Florian
From your post:
I love seeing people on the streets of Olympia, homeless or otherwise, it makes for a vibrant community.
I'm sure the people who watched the trains bring the jews in to Auschwitz thought of it as vibrant contribution to the comunity. Reality is these are sick and dangerous people. Most are sex offenders. You would do better being in jail and enjoying the good life. You are a sicko.
Wanna bet! It's just as easy (or hard) to access to drugs and booze in the system. I've worked for corrections and I've seen it!
I'm not saying anyone "wants" to go to jail, but it sure is getting wet and cold out and winter is here...usually the jails get fuller around this time of year.
Robert Whitlock, this isn't a battle against the poor. Its against the ones who cause problems.
Miller
Anyone who wants to get arrested can choose any number of laws to break now. It's easy to go to jail if you want to, but no one wants to go to jail, not even homeless people. There is no booze or dope in the jail.
"At their discretion, police officers could cite violators who could pay up to $1,000 or spend 90 days in jail."
If the ordinance is passed then they get arrested and have 3 square meals and a roof...we pay the bill...nice!
The city council needs to quit pandering about this issue and make the right decision to enact these ordinances. If they are serious about cleaning up downtown, this is exactly where they need to start.
Despite the grunge show that packed council chambers, the sensible, tax-paying people of the county en mass would like to see Downtown cleaned up, restored, and safe again.
Oh but I said I was not a supporter of those scary stinky's. It sounds like there are plenty of supporters though whom I'm sure will have no problem welcoming in these poor folks under a safe, warm roof. Otherwise, they're all talk. I'm not one of those. I wouldn't allow those dirty pigs near my dogs.
Let's find ways to battle poverty. Let's give the homeless, the poor, the down-trodden of our society support, rather than make it even harder for them as victims of poverty.
Battle poverty - not poor people.
There are concrete measures, we can take as a society, to ameliorate the effects, and the very existence, of poverty.
Larry,
How about you and I figure out a way to meet and debate in person?
The City of Olympia eventually will take too little action too late. Ever consider an enforceable ban on panhandling, period? Without it, expect to find half the businesses and three times as many homeless downtown in five years. You folks have fun with that now.
Margie said
"But what if all the supportors here who have houses went downtown and picked up at least homeless person to go live with them?"
Margie you first! let me know how it works out. How much they steal from you and how many meds disappear.
I've helped these kind of people before and the way they thanked me was by ripping me off!
This law will sterilize downtown and it will do nothing to bring people back downtown. The people that won't come here because of the homeless, won't come here after this law is passed, because downtown is dirty, or dark, or stinks, or has no parking, or is dangerous, or has streets too narrow, or no WalMarts, or too many pigeons, or not safe during an earthquake, or the street curbs are too high. You get the point.
I love seeing people on the streets of Olympia, homeless or otherwise, it makes for a vibrant community.
... But what if all the supportors here who have houses went downtown and picked up at least homeless person to go live with them? Now that would give them something to be thankful for. Hope this helps. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
Margie | 11.22.06 - 2:57 pm
No, Margie, it doesn't help, and it will never happen. Why would you think I would want to invite one of the downtown bums to live with me? It would be my luck that I would pick one who is a thief and who would steal some of what I worked so hard to get!
Besides, it looks like at least one of those panhandlers gets more money ($40,000 a year!!!) than many of us do and doesn't pay any taxes on it! With that kind of money he should not be homeless, so that makes it his choice. Since he chooses to be homeless, he doesn't get to share mine!
For those of you who continue to give in to these aggressive panhandlers, remember that you are now working for them the next time you provide them with their easily obtained tax free $$$$. It's as simple as that.
Bear with this for just a minute: I've got an analogy that will make my suggestion really poignant.
When then Attorney General Christine Gregoire was going after the tobacco industry as part of the big national lawsuit, I wondered what would happen to our State Budget if everyone in Washington State gave up tobacco use at the same time. Think about how much tax money is collected on tobacco sales. The "State" would have a complete hemmorage! We, (Washington), can't afford to have people quit using tobacco. The lawsuit, and the pontificating by the elected officials, was so two faced it wasn't even funny. It's not too far fetched to imagine the government lowering tobacco taxes as a way to encourage people to start using tobacco again.
Now jump to today. Olympia in general, and downtown in particular, is very business unfriendly. I wonder what would happen if every business in Olympia just up and moved to Lacey? Sound far fetched? It's happend before in other cities. Whole downtown areas have become nothing more than run down slums because no one had the fortitude to do the right thing.
BTW, a place to live is not a basic human right. The basic human right is the right to PERSUE a place to live. Just like we have the right under our Constitution to the PERSUE happiness. Nowhere in our Constition do we have the right to be GIVEN anything. We must participate in our own success, we PERSUE our own happiness - and that includes having a place to live.
Oh my, there seems to be a lot of harsh and angry words here. Personally, I am not a fan of the homeless, they scare me and tend to smell real bad to the point it just makes me sick and one stole my purse once. But what if all the supportors here who have houses went downtown and picked up at least homeless person to go live with them? Now that would give them something to be thankful for. Hope this helps. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
"If you're not uncomfortable with the amount of inequality in our world today, there's probably something wrong with you," she said. "A place to live is a human right." said Holly Carter of Williams Lane. It's only a right if you work hard to have a place to live. Society shouldn't have to hand everything to people out of guilt. Most of these loosers are drug addicts and alcoholics and they deserve their fate. I for one wouldn't give them one penny of my hard earned money.
Tonja posted it Cartman. And by the way, what do you mean by that Tonja? I am missing your point.
Whoa, how did that get posted again? I didn't do that.
. "A place to live is a human right."
This is the basic fallacy under which these people operate. I'll just tell that to ny landlord the next time the rent is due. Check out the guy in the picture who says he's been homeless for 26 years. If he hasn't gotten his act together in 26 years then he never will. I can't wait till they pass this, I will go have dinner downtown to celebrate.
cartman | 11.22.06 - 8:12 am | #
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Yea, that's what the Pilgrims thought tool
I have also seen the panhandler couple that is at exit 111 southbound on I-5 walk back to their tree area carrying a small grocery sack and 2 12 packs of beer. Yeah, that is helping them tons there people. Please, please quit giving them a reason to panhandle.
veecee,
They won't want to spend 90 days in jail because that's 90 days with no drugs or alchohol.
I remember being poor and having disabilities that held me back. Never did I beg, bum or harass people for money. My mom was a welfare mom.
Never did I just sit around and expect everybody else to solve my problems or take care of me. I did have a disability that held me back and overcame it.
I got a job starting at min. wage and worked my career from there. I learned good skills and a great work ethic and learned to solve my own problems.
Now I have a good paying job with nice bennies and a nice home. All because I took responsibility for my own life and decisions.
Many of these beggars expect us to solve their problems and take care of them and what will they give back for it? Very little.
They say "Our Streets" when they protest. Well they are my streets too and I have the right to be able to use them and not be harassed or have to step over somebody. And since I work and pay taxes that makes them more my streets than some freeloaders.
WOW that's a solution...SO It's either pay 1,000. or go to jail. Let's see a homeless or poor person with a home has to pay 1,000/ which do you think you would be forced to choose. Ok then jailing these people is more costly than giving them social assistance, housing, food and job assistance. I am glad that our American values are still alive and well. It's actually like the old saying to "Cut the nose off to spite the face" Well at least it's still illegal to gas the poor, to get rid of them like some of the readers (I'm sure ) would like to do. I have never been bothered (29 years) or verbally assaulted by anyone in down town Olympia. Some of these people need to go to a large city like New York, or SanFrancisco. There are lunatics running the streets, screeming and yelling even in the rich districts in NY. People just ignore them unless they start physically attacking people. If you take away the flavor of down town Oly which includes street musicians, and kids expressing themselves by dressing unusually, I may as well just stick to the steralized malls. Without the diversity, the down town merchants can keep their goods, I would rather shop on line.......Which to me is preferred to any mall.
We need to quit giving hand outs to these people at freeway offramps and to them on the street side. There are already programs to help these people in the community that our taxes are paying for. Yes, even for the mentaly ill. They have to show initiative to fix their problems. But why should they? People keep giving them money.
When they infringe on the rights of those that pay taxes, they are in the wrong and should have the integrity to not bother folks that do not want to help them. I have gone out of my way on numerous occasions and have asked these individuals to come to my house and help with household chores for a meal and some cash and they have ALL turned me down. I will not give money to those who will not help themselves.
I say that the ordinance is a good idea and even if it addresses the homeless, so what? If they used the programs available to them then they would not have to worry about this as they would be working a job by now!
It seems that if these are panhandlers, and/or homeless people, then they aren't going to be able to pay up to $1000 for a fine. If they can't pay the fine, they will be put in jail for up to 90 days. So doesn't that mean that taxpayers will still end up taking care of them? They will have a warm place to sleep and 3 meals a day. Plus they will have TV and whatever other benies a prisoner gets. Am I looking at this wrong?
Dear Doug From Tenino,
Having more foot patrols of officers is a good idea, but the cops need an ordinance to enforce FIRST. They can't do anything about THOSE people until they commit a crime or are caught in the act.
Plus, the OPD only has so many officers. Downtown is only part of the beat.
How about instead of having more ordinances, we just have more police foot patrols in downtown Olympia? Wouldn't regular beat cops be a great thing? If the issue is behavior, and we have laws on the books dealing with that, the real problem is enforcement. Is the issue panhandling? That's covered, isn't it? Is the issue too many people present that others deem undesirable? Well, you know, I think there's a lot of Jews downtown too, maybe we should do something about that.
If we have a public safety crisis, wouldn't there be some statistical evidence to support this, or is anecdotal testimony from individuals who wouldn't patronize downtown anyway sufficient. You know, like how people complain about parking downtown, but I never seem to have a problem, and never have to walk further than if I'd parked out in some mall parking lot.
They don't need to organize, they are the majority. The minority (ordinance opposers) organize to make themselves seem more important than they really are. The ordinance supporters are'nt scared, they're angry.
Larry
I agree with many of your points but this one from your post:
I believe that society has an obligation to take care of the least of us (I think the Jesus guy said that one). That would probably qualify for "distribution of wealth". The Jesus guy said "take all your riches and give them to the poor".
While he may have said that. He certainly did not say vote people into office and have them take from rich people to inefficiantly give to the poor. That is not the same thing. Rich people that believe in god give in a way that is in accordince to how they worship. Jesus certainly wouldn't spare the rod. If there is a heaven and a hell one can say if one is selfish he will pay for it. Making someone share the wealth is different than someone freely giving of it. How about if we as a society voted to take your computer and give it to a school that needs to help kids get an education? I am all for programs to help those in our society who can't help themselves. That is an appropriate function of government. Jesus wouldn't be for (just guessing) the government providing money for abortions, war, stem cell research, tanks, guns, bombs and many other things. The jesus arguement is weak since the bible can be shown to promote different views on the same subject. It is what the left uses to scare people. The only way to redistribute wealth is to violate those with the gold which is in conflict with your other points about liberalism.
Ordinance Supporters: Can't organize. They militarize themselves against the atrocities they perceive in "their" downtown Olympia. None who showed at the hearing communicated well, and they all came separately to the meeting last night. Making neither friends with each other or anyone else around them. They were alone and scared. And all used the tired excuse of "My Kids".
They feed their kids diets of Comcast and refined sugar, gated community life around people who have distorted ideas of what community means. Of course downtown is so mean and scary looking .. it has it's own autonomy, that none can control or recreate on Fox News.
None of them seemed to live in a realty of 2006 that includes population explosion, incredible poverty and people who understand that having 'insert_tactile_profession_here'+ II is a terrible business name.
Ordinance supporters are scared and separated, and therefore have no weight because a distorted idea of community is not an idea or model at all.
Doug Mah still uses Internet Explorer
How about those who think the panhandlers have a right to harass people take them home to harass their families for awhile so the rest of us can walk downtown and enjoy it.
If they need help then seek it out there are several agencies out there to help the homeless and the hungry. I remember a KVI talkradio show from a couple of years ago that featured a panhandler from Pike's place in Seattle. People felt sorry for him and offered him jobs etc and his response was. I should he work at a legit job when he was clear upwards of $40000 plus per year tax free.
If they are in need then seek help cause harassing people who want to enjoy our downtown isn't the way to get help. It only makes people dislike the actions of the panhandlers even more.
Olympia,
Just clean up our streets and we will shop and eat downtown, Simple as that!
Marv,
Most people see them for what they are!
Hello Olympian readers
Let me enlighten you what is going on with the proposed anti-loitering items on the agenda.
The city looks upon the homeless as a nuisance and anything they can do to harass or makes things uncomfortable for the real homeless, well, so be it. I sat in a police meeting in which Chief Michel, former Council member Greene, City Manager Steve Hall were in attendance. I kid you not; they snickered about how the cops were harassing the homeless. This is City leaders giving the green light to harass. To blame the homeless for all the problems of DT is a sham. I was outside during the hearings and every person there recognized the proposal for what it is; another tool to harass.
marv Schamber
FWIW from an outsiders point of view. My family and I come to Olympia a couple times a month to shop, etc. Two of my friends have boats at the downtown marina so we also spend time there.
The one thing we don't do any longer is attempt to go to any downtown businesses simply because of the problems there. We used to but it became such a hassle and with twin five-year-olds I won't bother.
Is this ordinance a save all? No. But it is a step in the right direction to clean up the downtown area. If this happens more than likely I will spend money in that area again. Which of course means more money for those businesses, possibly more jobs and more tax dollars for the Olympia area. Which in turn may provide money to help with the homeless issue.
Just an outsiders point of view.
That's why I shop at WalMart!!!
26 Years!
I work downtown and have to deal with these bums and crack heads everyday, the last time I took my kids downtown we were going to Paint a Cup or what ever the name of the place is, after we were done we came out and started to my truck and around the corner came this guy and he was swinging a large stick around, (it was about 4 feet long) it almost hit my youngest girl. I yelled it him and he started laughing. I saw this same man swing at a adult woman a few weeks later and just missed hitting her. A 911 call resulted in the Police taking his stick away.
You just can't believe some of the things you see downtown, I saw a man shuffling down the 4th Ave with his pants down around his feet. The 911 operator asked if I could describe the man, yeah he is the one with his equipment hanging out!
20 minutes later he was still moving down the street, they must been having a hard time ID'ing him.
Downtown is a sewer, my kids don't need to see that activity.
Someone stated Washington DC has the most street bums and they mostly really do, but keep in mind the people of that city don't really have their ducks in a row, they elected a Hooker buying Crack-Head as mayor and you can't defend yourself on the streets from the streethoods, I would not model anything on the Washington DC style of doing business.
Pass tough laws enforce them, tow junk cars and cars with more than one days parking tickets.
If you want to keep these street bums here in town let them live at your house or better yet in front of your house, see how long you enjoy stepping over them everyday!
Hi, I work with guys just like Carl, I would try to request that since none of you with homes, computer access and the ability to construct fluid sentences attack a guy who looks nothing like you feel comfortable with.
Actually, attack all you want. He's an easy target and good pariah. Feel better about yourselves? How was that shower this morning you got to take because you had the --smallest-- idea that hygene was important.
Pretty nice not having onset schizophrenia, anxiety and general mental illness to give you enough energy while sipping that morning coffee, to put together your daily routine isn't it?
You work hard for that daily routine and appreciate it don't you? The point is that you even have a clue from all those nice intact neural pathways telling you that what you are doing every morning is ok, and that everything is alright.
Carl is not our problem, our devicive mental health care system says that we can't force treatment on people who desperately need it.
Because we spend it on .. well you know exactly where that is getting spent. Vote war and watch your country turn into a potty can.
Jeff Kingsbury downloads illegal DVD's and sells them to Joe Hyer.
Most of us were working at 10PM? I sure wasnt!
In contemporary use, the word liberal has several meanings, all of which convey some facet of liberal thinking. These meanings include "favorable to progress and reform, as in religious or political affairs"; "favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties"; "open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc."; and "characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts". (Random House Dictionary of the English Language). In other words, liberals support changes that increase personal freedom and tolerance, and exercise the liberty to empower government to the extent necessary to achieve those ends.
Come on, guys. It's the day before Thanksgiving and I really don't want to go on a post-deleting rampage. Please try to be a little more respectful of each other.
The laws that already exist, if enforced, cover most of the behavior that is keeping people from going downtown. The difficult part has been that if the Oly PD enforces these laws they get hammered for picking on the homeless. The drug deals, the aggressive panhandling, littering, urinating in public, drinking in public, etc. would reduce in occurance if we let the Oly PD do their job.
However law enforcement officers are not soley responsible to respond. As someone said at the meeting last night, the citizens who witness these acts need to report them to the police or, when appropriate, tell the person committing the offense against our downtown to stop. We have become bad stewards for our town and by doing so, let the bad behavior grow like a cancer.
Larry said: "Interestingly, those that support the ordinance didn't seem to show up last night, in comparison to others."
You're right on that. Most of us were working. :D
Larry:
I don't think they have church services at the drag bars dowwntown.
How's your business?
Ghost of Xmas Future: Shouldn't you be downtown asleep in a pool of your own urine/vomit?
Put down the corrugated begging sign and get a life. 
Give me a break... WHAT has prevented Carl Willis from working for 26 years??? Oh, I know... He gets more money begging than working! He can set his own hours, make as much as he wants tax free and build a healthy savings account eating, sleeping & bathing free thanks to shelters/public restrooms paid for by TAXPAYERS DOLLARS!
KICK HIM OFF THE CURB ALONG WITH HIS COHORTS.
Wow, Captain Karl. I'm impressed. You can smell urine through your computer screen. Are you sure you remembered to wash your hands?
Car Willis, homeless for 26 years, dirty, probably smells of urine and alcohol, yet he has a nicely printed sign that he shows to the camera. Come on. The people either can't take care of themselves, or won't. Letting them piss in the streets is not the answer.
How about applying resource where they will do some good. Get them out of the streets and into treatment.
Is there really an answer to all this? We've spent forty plus years taking from Peter to pay Paul under the idea if we take from the successful and give to the unsuccessful, the unsuccessful will be better off. It hasn't worked.
We've spent billions, if not trillions, of dollars over decades giving subsidized housing, job training, counselling, and various monthly payouts to the poor under the guise of helping them. Hire thousands of bureaucrats and paperpushers to administer the programs, tell the poor they don't have to take responsibility for themselves or their actions, and make it hard to get off the programs, creating generations of underclass to perpetuate employment of the bureaucrats and paperpershers. Last time I looked, we still have poor people. Apparently poverty won LBJ's "War on Poverty".
I don't profess to have any answers, but I do question the vehemence of some speakers last night in advocating the continuation of decades of failed social policy.
The whole state of downtown is certainly an interesting topic of debate. I enjoy reading the opinions of everyone who chooses to speak in this forum.
I am wholeheartedly in support of the proposed ordinance, but I'm a little bothered by the wording regarding the enforcement of the rules if it does pass. It apparently will be up to the discretion of the officers to enforce the law. What criteria will they use when deciding whom to roust and whom to let stay? Will indeed a certain percentage of the population be targeted, or will the rules apply to everyone?
This will certainly be something to keep an eye on in the near future.
Have a great Thanksgiving, everyone!!
Larry, the reason that the majority of the people who showed up were opposed to the ordinance, is because most of those people don't have kids to tuck into bed or a job to get up for at an early morning hour.
freeway ramps.
Dave:
You claimed to know what "liberalism" is and has become, you must know what a liberal thinks....
Unless of course, you just use the terminology as a weapon.
By the way, Dave, this blog is for debate. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Olympia still has a downtown? Close TESC and watch the place clean up. I for one shop in th suburbs where the selections are!! Downtown you can buy wacked out clothes from some bamboo shoe wearing "graduate". Or you can mosey in to one of the fine piercing and tatoo establishments where you can show your independence to everyone.
Ahint to everyone, stop giving money to the panhandlers, especially at the freeway maps and they will go away. Why do you think they are there.
yrral:
Yes...you are a backwards version of me.
I believe in small government that stays in budget (Clinton as opposed to Bush)
I believe in personal rights, thus no one has the right to tell my doctor and me about my healthcare.
I believe in freedom of religion, which includes freedom FROM religion.
I believe that society has an obligation to take care of the least of us (I think the Jesus guy said that one). That would probably qualify for "distribution of wealth". The Jesus guy said "take all your riches and give them to the poor".
Worshipping Big Brother. Let's see...who is the group that "bleets" over and over "he is my president and I'll follow him right or wrong"?
The nice thing is that people are seeing through the Rush Limbaugh attempts to denigrate the Left side of center. They are voting AGAINST the Right (to use the words of the Right) which ends up with the same result - Left majority.
By the way, I favor the ordinance to control downtown. It only is directed at a small minority of people that make it uncomfortable for others.
Interestingly, those that support the ordinance didn't seem to show up last night, in comparison to others.
We are not talking about an inequality issue, we are talking about adult behavior. If you can't behave yourself and respect other people, then you don't belong downtown. Part of that respect is not turning our sidewalks into your own personal living room. Sidewalks are for pedestrian traffic, not sitting, sleeping, begging and all the other things you might do in your own living room. If you are homeless, you dont have the right to set up your day camp on a downtown sidewalk. There are better places for homeless to hang out during the day than on the sidwalks that were designed for ped traffic. Let's get real, sometimes you have to step up to the plate council and actually make a decision that might not be popular for everybody. The vocal minority must not determine the fate of a city that is populated primarily by hard working, ethically and morally sound people who don't have the time to spend 3 hours at a city council meeting listening to a lot of people who don't respect the the country that allows them to speak their minds.
Homeless for 26 years???? A place to live is a human right????
What they really mean is that they want the rest of us to work so that they can take some of what we to support them.
Everyone have a nice day. I need to go to work and earn money to pay taxes!!!!!
Larry,
I don't know what you think other than I believe you just like to argue with people.
You asked a question and I gave my best answer.
And BTW Larry,
Rush Limbaugh is as nutty as Moore who is as nutty as Coulter who is as nutty as Frankin.
"If liberalism moved back to center"
Now...there is a classic line
Dave:
I'm a liberal...tell me what I think
Larry:
There is quite a diference between what the dictionary says liberal means and what modern liberals actually want.
Hell, 20 years ago I was considered liberal and now conservative and my beliefs are basically the same.
Liberals used to believe in small government, (so did republicans but that seems to have changed) individual rights and freedom of religion.
Liberals used to believe in lower taxes to boost revenues.
If liberalism would move back to center like the old days, I would probobly endorse it.
Vote YES to pass this ordinance!!
Oh man. This whole downtown issue is just a mess. There are a lot of factors as to what makes the downtown ares unappealing for shoppers. The pan handling is of course one of them. Parking is another. Stores that are over priced because the rent down there is outrageous. I know for a fact that one business pays 1000.00 a month for around 500 square ft of space. Not to mention it just has a seedy feel to it. The boardwalk area is not so bad, and around capitol lake is still somewhat ok. But the vast majority of the down town area just does not have a good friendly feel to it. I do however love Capitol Blvd this time of year, when they have the lights in the trees. I am not sure why the city has not tried to do something similar with fourth and state.
As far as the homeless problem, that's always going to be a tough one. Look at Washington DC, they have more homeless then any other city or town in the nation, and THEY still have not got it figured out. You would think with all those educated smart politicians there that someone would come up with a model for the nation.
I am all for an ordinance that helps to put a stop to aggressive panhandling and possibly to help reduce the amount of blocked sidewalks but I do not want it in place just so a few can be targeted. The city council has for a long time wanted to run the homeless out of down town. I believe I had heard that a council member (not sure if this is fact or not) had purchased the building that Bread and Roses was located in on Cherry street just so they could pull the lease on them. Like I said I am not sure if that was fact, but it was however a rumor that many people were talking about.
Its hard for me to offer up a solution to this problem though. I am not sure what would work, and of course not sure where funding would come from even if I did come up with an idea.
It would be nice to have a downtown that everyone could feel good about though, not sure that is ever going to happen.
Cartman -
I have to agree. One can't switch from bum to success overnight without a winning lotto ticket, but 26 years is way too long.
I've been able to find a decent place to live way back when I only made minimum. Yes I wanted better, but I knew that had to wait until I was more able. Too many beggars are thinking they can be choosers.
It's creeps like that who make it difficult if not impossible for those who've truly fallen on hard times and are trying to pick themselves up.
For someone that wants to read the liberal agenda. This is a Liberal Friendly website. It really shows what the word means. (Russia 1917)
http://www.liveliberal.com/mission.html
Larry
Defining Liberal:
progressive politically or socially: favoring gradual reform, especially political reforms that extend democracy, distribute wealth more evenly, and protect the personal freedom of the individual
Even the definition is confusing. How does one "distribute" wealth evenly and protect an individuals rights? Political reforms are often masked as entitlements. What the word boils down to is socialism. Social engineering that in the end strips people of rights and responsibility. Being a liberal is worshiping big brother and letting others make choices for you. This proposal is for making people respect others rights. Some people don't want to be hassled. Some people want to walk down the street without fear. These Bums downtown fiegn that there rights are being trampled when in fact they are abusing others and there freedoms.
. "A place to live is a human right."
This is the basic fallacy under which these people operate. I'll just tell that to ny landlord the next time the rent is due. Check out the guy in the picture who says he's been homeless for 26 years. If he hasn't gotten his act together in 26 years then he never will. I can't wait till they pass this, I will go have dinner downtown to celebrate.
Go Doug Mah. Many of us out here support this. I wonder where a he got a printed sign against the proposal?
Dave:
Look up "liberal" in the dictionary (not Rush Limbaugh's website) and tell me what is wrong with liberalism, as you try to intimate. If you claim that liberalism is the lack of acceptance of personal responsibility, there are a whole lot of liberal Republicans, starting with George W. Bush.
Independent:
How do you know that sodomy is committed downtown? Do you have some inside information?
I'm happy that those against the ordinance were able to speak their piece.
Ok, so let's move on now and ENFORCE the ordinance!
I, for one, hope that the City Council moves forward and adopts this ordinance. If they don't, perhaps people in this community should organize a boycott of downtown until they do. Oh...wait a minute...people in this community are already not going downtown anymore. Scratch that idea.
Maybe the women that just won the sex-bias case will be generous and share their wealth with the downtown "elite." They'd fit right in.
San Fran is alot warmer than here.
Travel south for the winter.
Just give downtown to the sodomites and bums.
Oh, wait a minute. They've had it for years.
Gotta be "tolerant" and "diverse", you know...
Please! Allowing someone a space on the sidewalk is not the same as a handout, Scrooge! Wow. I bet you give great Christmas presents, Jim. Mr. Generosity.
what?
Get a new city counil if the city made this much to do about the students yes it was students who vandal. And the Bayside shop I've been in there and I never saw a homeless peson.I think I'll be going to other shop.
It is always a battle between rights and responsibilities when one argues a topic such as this. I, for one, never visit down town - it is too much hassle. It isn't fair to the shop owners. However, the sad fact is that we have enabled all this helplessness and we will continue to do this every time we give money to the panhandlers and give berth to the folks who have nothing else to do than to sit on a sidewalk under the awning provided by someone else. A hand up is one thing - it requires BOTH to make an effort; a handout is entirely one sided.
Jim,
Welcome to liberalism, and Olympia is one step behind San Francisco.
One says that a place to live is a human right. Does this mean that instead of being responsible for oneself, the government should be responsible for us? In my opinion, the government taking care of these people has made it worse. The idea that it 'isn't their fault' makes these people less likely to take the steps to get their lives in order. The idea that we should give them a sense of self esteem so they can get better is flawed.
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