This Catholic Journey
I've never understood the "dead in heaven" remark. When we get to Heaven we will be more alive than ever!
You should join up with the team at Catholic Answers! You explain things so well!
Thanks! :)
That's definitely a dream but I believe I have much more to learn first, Tim! It's easy when you are able to take the time to look things up and put it in writing. It's completely different when you have to pull it from your head at a moment's notice in the heat of an attack!
Thank you for the compliment, however. I will treasure it!
Whenever someone tell me we shouldn't pray to the saints because they're dead, I ask them to open their Bible (they always have one)and read John 11:25,26-Jesus raising Lazarus. "Jesus said to her (Martha) 'I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Then I use my best Clint Eastwood voice and say, "Well, do ya?" I get mixed responses but maybe that's because I'm not a very good mimic.
This was thoughfully written. Sometimes it's difficult to explain to non-Catholics about intercession . . . especially where Mary is concerned. Thank you for doing such a good job (I'll remember some of your points next time this conversation comes up!)
Hello again Amber,
I'd just like to make a few comments on this particular post. First, I pretty much agree with you on the "One Mediator" point. But there is a difference between praying "for" someone and praying "to" them. We pray TO Jesus (and ONLY to Him / God) because of His role as Mediator in paying the full price for sin on our behalf. But nowhere in Scripture are we allowed to pray TO anyone else. It is not the same thing as praying FOR other people, e.g., for health, blessings, guidance, etc.
Concerning those in Heaven, yes, they are very much alive. But the two passages you offered in Revelation simply tell us that the angels and elders "offered" the prayers of the saints to God. It never says that the prayers were first directed to the angels, or anyone else in Heaven.
The verses you quoted in Psalms are not directing us to PRAY TO the angels, but are simply exhorting ALL (even the Heavenly hosts) to praise and exalt God, because He is worthy. You didn't mention the next verse (103:22), which encourages His "works" (not just living creatures) to also praise Him. Does that mean that we pray to all His "works" also? What about when PEOPLE are admonished to praise Him? Are we praying to THEM too?
It is perfectly fine to pray FOR someone here on earth. But we find no precedent in the Bible where anyone obediently prays to ANYONE ELSE but God.
Thanks, and looking forward to your response.
Russell
When we are praying "to" the saints, we are not praying so that through their own power, they might answer us. We are praying for their intercession, prayer being a message to God asking for them to intercede for us. Praying "to" God is asking him directly. Praying "through" the saints is asking for their intercession. Whenever you hear a Catholic saying that they are praying "to" a saint, what they really mean is that they are praying for God's help "through" that saint. A person saying "I am praying to St. Therese" is using a common shorthand "to" for the actual meaning, "I am praying to God through the intercession of St. Therese". Its just a lot easier to say the first way. Unfortunately, this shorthand has created confusion on the part of some Catholics and most non-Catholics. That's why its up to us to learn our faith!
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through me" John 14:6 This applies to prayer also. Jesus Christ is the only way, the only Mediator 1 Tim 2:5
1 John 2:1-5
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
All throughout the Gospels, Jesus prayed to God the Father, and God the Father alone. Not to the saints, not to angels. If we are to walk as Jesus walked we need to follow His example otherwise we're praying to gods & not God Almighty.
I pray that eyes, minds and hearts will be opened to the truth of God's word, and that the Holy Spirit will grant us all wisdom and discernment so that we can distinguish truth from false doctrine. May the Lord bless you & keep you!
I believe getting on your knees and praying to people to pray for you to God is much different (and a sin) than asking a friend to pray for you. I would not pray to anyone to pray for me...I might ask them to pray for me...which is scriptural as you wrote on your web-page. Prayer is worship. This is not an attack on you...I found your page while researching to share with a Catholic friend of mine and just wanted to share with you too.
In Christ,
Jason
"I would not pray to anyone to pray for me...I might ask them to pray for me... Prayer is worship."
Hi Jason... The word "pray" has many different definitions and is NOT always worship. For example: to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing. Synonyms: importune, entreat, supplicate, beg, beseech, implore - These do not mean WORSHIP.
This means to ASK. When we pray to the saints or to Mary, we are not worshiping them. We are asking them for their intercession. This is no different than me praying for you, whether you want to say it's different or not.
Think of this:
Christians are members of the body of Christ, correct?
Christians who die do not cease to be members of Christ's body, correct?
In fact, they are more fully united to the body of Christ than we are because Christ has made them new and perfect.
1 Cor 12:14-26
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
So if one member cannot deny the need of another, why should we deny that we need those in heaven? And, what more do we need them for than for their prayers for us here on earth. If we don't need them to pray for us, then what do we need them for? Why do you limit what God is able to do with his body? The Almighty God can and does allow us to seek the intercession of those in heaven. THAT is scriptural and it is not worship.
Peace be with you!
Hi Amber,
I've read your blog on "One Mediator" and it encouraged me to look at this passage deeper and what other members of the 'body' of Christ has to say about it and I came upon an article by Mike Willis entitled "There is One Mediator" which helped me and I'm sure would be helpful to the faith community as well. Here is the article in its entirety:
There is One Mediator
Mike Willis
Xenia, Ohio
In 1 Tim. 2:5, Paul wrote, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." This was a novel idea expressed by God to the pagan world. The pagan world not only imagined a number of gods, they also imagined that a number of intermediaries existed between God and man. For Paul to teach that there was only one God was not new; they had been acquainted with Judaism for years.
However, to go the next step to speak of one mediator between God and man was new.
Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. "The word `mediator' is meshes, `one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or to form a compact or ratify a covenant.' Our Lord is a mediator in that He interposed Himself by His death, and made possible the restoration of the harmony between God and man which had been broken by sin" (Kenneth S. bluest, Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, Vol. II, "The Pastoral Epistles," p. 41). Jesus is our mediator. Whereas we once were enemies of God (Rom. 5:8-10), we are now God's adopted sons because of the reconciliation made possible to us through Jesus Christ.
Since there is but one mediator between God and man, man can be saved only through the reconciliation made possible through Jesus. Jesus recognized this when He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (Jn. 14:6). Jesus is man's only access to God. Any religion that tries to approach God in any other way than through Jesus Christ is worthless. Hence, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mohammedanism, etc. are just so many worthless and false religions. One can have access to God through the one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.
There is no other way to approach God.
Within the Christian religion, men have added other mediators in addition to Jesus Christ. I would like to mention just a few of these; perhaps others can add cases to the list which I have left out. However, these are cases of instances in which man must approach God through some mediator in addition to Christ.
1. The Catholic Priest. The Catholic system of worship places the priest between God and man as the dispenser of salvation. He has the right to grant absolution from sins. Absolution, in Roman theology, is the act by which the priest declares the sins of penitent persons to be remitted to them. The Council of Trent gave the priest the right to remit the sins of penitent sinners. Hence, the Catholic who sins must go to the confessional booth, co
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.... Hence, the Catholic who sins must go to the confessional booth, confess his sins, and allow the Catholic priest to absolve him of the guilt of his sins.
One of the major doctrines which Protestantism rebelled against was the doctrine which gave the priest the right to forgive sins. Whereas Catholicism has a standing priesthood in distinction to the laity, Protestantism believes in the priesthood of all believers. According to Protestantism, every Christian has direct accessibility to God and can get forgiveness by appealing directly to God for it. We need no mediator other than or in addition to Jesus Christ. Quite properly, the Protestants emphasized that there is only one mediator between God arid man.
2. The Baptismal Formula of Jesus-only Pentecostals. Sometimes, men place mediators in addition to Jesus Christ between themselves and God quite unconsciously. The Jesus-only Pentecostals have done this. According to their theology, one's baptism is not valid, regardless of how sincere a believer and how penitent the person might have been, unless the proper formula is said over the person being baptized. Hence, one's salvation depends, not only upon one's own faith, repentance and immersion in water, but also upon a formula being said over the subject to be baptized. Unless the proper formula is said, the baptism is invalid. Hence, the person saying the formula stands between the sinner and God. He is a mediator in addition to Jesus Christ.
Any system which posits a mediator in addition to Jesus Christ is a corrupt system which has departed from Jesus Christ. Sometimes the putting of mediators between God and man occurs in subtle manners. We must always be on the look-out that we do not allow such things to happen to us.
The Public Confession
I am afraid that some among us have gotten the idea that the church stands as a mediator between man and God with reference to public sins. Hence, in the eyes of some, the church has become the dispenser of salvation rather than the recipient of salvation. I have talked with saints who thought that they could not obtain God's forgiveness without making a public confession. Their concept was that the church stood between them and God.
My brethren, there is but one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. The church is not a mediator between God and man. It cannot confer forgiveness upon anyone. It is a recipient of salvation rather than the dispenser of it. Once we begin to look upon the church as the dispenser of salvation, there is but a short step until we begin to look upon preachers as set-apart ministers who give out salvation to the sinners. Therefore, we need to reconsider what the purpose of a public confession is lest we end up placing the church between the sinner and his salvation.
The passage generally appealed to as authority for a public confession is James 5:16; it says, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray fo
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The passage generally appealed to as authority for a public confession is James 5:16; it says, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." The prayers that are made when one confesses his sins to one another are not to be viewed as being necessary for one's salvation. Otherwise, should the church refuse to pray for a penitent sinner, he could not receive forgiveness. Rather, this is just the case of a man acknowledging his faults and requesting the prayers of his brethren to help him to overcome them. This is the intercessory type of prayer, whereby we ask something from God in behalf of a brother.
"There is no mention here of absolution, either by a priest or any other person . . . . All that it can mean is that God promises pardon to those who are truly penitent, and this fact may as well be stated by one person as another. No priest, no man whatever, is empowered to say to another either that he is truly penitent, or to forgive sin. `Who can forgive sins but God only?' None but he whose law has been violated, or who has been wronged, can pardon an offence. No third person can forgive a sin which a man has committed against a neighbor; no one but a parent can pardon the offences of which his own children have been guilty towards him; and who can put himself in the place of God, and presume to pardon the sins which his creatures have committed against him?" (Albert Barnes, James, pp. 95-96).
I am afraid that a number of Christians have misunderstood this text to the point that they believe that a public confession before the church is necessary so that the church can grant forgiveness to them. We need to be reminded that no one other than Christ can grant forgiveness. The church is the recipient of salvation and not the dispenser of it.
Conclusion
There is but one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. Neither the priest, a minister who utters a proper formula before baptism, nor the church stands between God and man. One has access to God only through Jesus Christ our Lord. Although public confessions of public sins need to be made, let us understand that the church is not the dispenser of salvation when public confessions are made.
Truth Magazine XXI: 26, pp. 403-404
June 30, 1977
Hi. I've run into the same thing as an Orthodox believer as well.
Your mention of Psalms 103 is helpful.
Hebrews 12 helps me; I have blogged on it. Spiritually we have been seated in heavenly places , not only with Jesus, but with the souls of just men made perfect. This was not arid doctrine for St. Paul, but his experience.
In Orthodox terminology Christ is the One mediator according to Nature, for He is by Nature the only Hypostasis who is both fully God and fully man according to Nature.
The rest of us are mediators according to grace, not nature. In Orthodox theology, grace, or the Energies of God is the means by which we participate in the Divine Nature. As the Fathers tell us, we are to become by Grace, everything that God is according to nature.
Mary, the saints, everyone human in heaven with the exception of Christ Jesus, is dead. Their spirits are with the Lord, but their bodies are in the grave. They are not partaking of everlasting "Life" until after the resurrection of the saints. Ontologically, they are currently dead.
Jesus Christ has His physical body, He is the firstfruit of the first resurrection.
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
I Corinthians 15:20-23
If you offer a prayer to St. Thomas to intercede on your behalf, does that mean that St. Thomas has a choice to act or not to act on your behalf? If so, St. Thomas would then have the power to answer or not to answer your prayer, a power reserved for God only. St. Thomas and Mary needed a savior just like you and me. Nevertheless:
"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:14-16
When I am admonished through scripture to; "come boldly unto the throne of grace", if I have the ultimate high priest in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, what in heaven would I need anyone else for?
"Mary, the saints, everyone human in heaven with the exception of Christ Jesus, is dead."
Do you seriously believe this? That's not what the Bible says... You're right that our bodies are dead, but those believers who are in heaven are very well ALIVE in Christ and in heaven. Scripture tells us that believers make up the body of Christ. Are you going to say that one part of the body gets cut off from the other parts of the body when the body dies? (1 Cor 12)
James 5:16 says, "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."
We are to pray for one another. (That is mediating or interceding for one another.) That doesn't take away from Christ's role as the one mediator in any way. James ALSO states that the prayer of a righteous man is "powerful and effective". Who is more righteous than those who are in the presence of God, much more righteous than any of us? God can do as he wishes. I see no reason why we need to limit HIS ability to unite the ENTIRE body of Christ through intercessory prayer.
St. Thomas has already made his free-will choice that allowed him to be in heaven with the LORD. He is unable to sin (since there is no sin in heaven) and therefore, unable to NOT do the will of God. St. Thomas, therefore, would never refuse to pray for other members of the body of Christ. No one EVER stated that Mary, St. Thomas, or anyone else didn't need a savior like the rest of us.
To say that the saints are "dead" shows a lack in understanding of ETERNAL LIFE.
Peace be with you.
Amber
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