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Democrats wouldn't know torture if it hung them by their fingernails. At least now the Geneva Convention articles that were vague are addressed in this bill.
We've had friends work as guards at Gitmo. It isn't the soldiers who are doing the torturing, that's for sure.
Amy -
You are correct, my friend! I have spoken with some of these guys too, and they tell me that the GITMO facility is much better for detainees than ANY military brig that they have ever worked in. These guys have it better than our own troops who have comitted comparatively minor offenses. Amazing.
BTW, I really enjoyed watching your appearance on the Montel Williams show - YOU GO GIRL!!! I thought you did just fine...how on Earth did you manage to get an invitation to be a guest? Is Jesse Jackson as much of an ASS in person as he is over the airwaves? What about Lou Dobbs?
I am VERY proud of you, Amy!
Timmer
It is NOT the act of a traitor to actively dissent. What are these ‘classified efforts’? And who do you imagine, these ‘anonymous sources’ to be? These generalisations are not good enough. Try harder.
Newspapers are not ‘traitors’ for printing articles that are not devoted to the GOP party line. If you want to live in such a society, North Korea awaits.
When it comes to self-serving politicians and their angry pundits, look no further that the Republican party. What do you think the Ambrahoff scandal is all about? And angry pundits? I think Sean Hannity is about to explode!And Bill? Well, he does have a book to sell...
I love the way you guys rationalise crimes like the Plame affair but get so indignant when you perceive a similar act perpetrated by a liberal entity? And what was the NYT’s crime, anyway? I recommend you look up ‘hypocrisy’.
The signing of this bill is a complete disaster, for the USA and the world. The WH are pandering to paranoid ‘security’ delusions that they planted with their ‘War on Terror™’, and in doing so set progress back hundreds of years. It is a knee-jerk, short-term solution to a manufactured problem that will come back to bite them. You can’t seem to grasp that Habeus Corpus is the fundamental backbone of the West’s judicial system. Without it, tyrants rule.
America thinks of itself as a ‘Shining City on the hill’ as envisioned by John Winthrop, Reagan and Jesus. If you are serious about this claim (it’s always seemed a bit arrogant to me) then why don’t you fight for it? Ah well, It’s gone now, that’s for sure! Bye-bye Shining City, hello torture state!
Either you have a ‘Manifest Destiny’ or you don’t. You can’t hold your self up as a model for the rest of the world if you sink to the supposed level of your ‘enemies’ if the going gets tough. Do you not understand that by doing this, you give the green light for your ‘enemies’ to do it with impunity. You have sacrificed your high moral ground on the altar of political expediency. You now have no argument when this is done to you and your kind.
Amy, evidently Republicans wouldn’t know torture if it water-boarded them, kept them awake for weeks on end and played them an Islamic call-to-prayer tape at 140 decibels. And vague? My dear, somehow the entire world has struggled by with these conventions since 1864; now Bush decides that they are ‘vague’? Maybe he just doesn’t understand them.
If the GCs are vague, then this legislation is far more vague, as it give the Pres. total power to decide what is and isn’t torture and who is or isn’t an 'enemy combatant’; this kind of law is what dictatorships are made of, and it puts paid to Timmer’s fantasy of built-in safeguards.
Torture does NOT produce reliable intelligence and power that is on the statute books will be used. And what happens if, one day, a President decides that GWB is an ‘enemy combatant;’ guilty of ‘war crimes? Be careful what you wish for.
Cheers
Elroy
Elroy -
You are showing yourself (again) to have no concept of what the military and intelligence communities are all about - and why classified information must be kept secret from our enemies...who happen to hear and read everything that the public does.
National Security is NOT the GOP party line. Crikey, mate...are you really THAT far gone?
"When it comes to self-serving politicians and their angry pundits, look no further that the Republican party. What do you think the Ambrahoff (sic) scandal is all about?"
You actually think Abramoff was only buying off Republicans? Read this little snippet from one of our most Liberal major newspapers, the Washington Post:
"Senate Democratic Leader Harry M. Reid (Nev.) sent a letter to Norton on March 5, 2002, also signed by Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev). The next day, the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana issued a $5,000 check to Reid's tax-exempt political group, the Searchlight Leadership Fund. A second Abramoff tribe also sent $5,000 to Reid's group. Reid ultimately received more than $66,000 in Abramoff-related donations from 2001 to 2004."
Hmmmm....
And how do you call the "Plame affair" a crime? No crime was committed, other than Libby lying on the stand. Plame was not an "undercover agent" and it has been shown that her "outing" was not by any Republican politician, but by newsmen and by her dear husband.
You and your habeus corpus! Since when does this apply to prisoners of war while the conflict continues? And "strong measures" and "torture" are two different things entirely. Perhaps we should just rub their feet and ask them nicely to give up their cell leaders? Your lack of understanding in all things military or intelligence is truly astounding.
This from "Outside the Beltway" (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2005/
12/torturing_khalid_shaikh_mohammed_worked/):
"What made KSM decide to talk? The answer may be waterboarding, to which KSM was subjected on at least one occasion, according to various accounts. Intelligence operatives say that while waterboarding can break through a suspect’s initial resistance, it isn’t effective for long-term interrogation. Once a suspect begins to communicate, however, an interrogation specialist can put into action a wide range of far more subtle techniques, which include playing to a subject’s ego or pretending to be his friend."
Elroy, it really bothers you that this is the "Shining City on the Hill"...that much is obvious. I am beginning to think that you would hate us if we just sat around singing "kumbaya" and redistributed all of our wealth to starving countries. You'd probably accuse us of having messages hidden in the song and of poisoning the potatos! 
The ‘outing’ of a covert CIA operative is a crime.
Plame was, indeed, an undercover agent. ( http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/200...7/13/04720/
9340 ) and Rove, Libby, Armitage, Cheney et al colluded to out her in revenge for Wilson’s op ed via a plethora of sympathetic journalists like Novak, Cooper, Miller, Matthews etc. Spin it anyway you want to, but they are the facts. Why would Libby perjure himself and ruin his career if they/he had done nothing wrong? One of the interesting things in debating you is observing the amount of spin you are willing to swallow. Do you not EVER seek out the other side(s) to a story? Or do you take HAL (Hannity, O’Reilly & Limbaugh) at face value?
To which ‘conflict’ do you refer? The Iraq war, which is officially over (remember ‘Mission Accomplished?), has never been declared by Congress anyway! So, a war that isn’t a war is over. Officially. So therefore, there is no justification for the suspension of Habeus Corpus.
If the conflict is the ‘War On Terror™’, this ‘war’ (which it isn’t) is apparently never going to end, according to the WH. So, if HC is suspended for the duration of this ‘war’, then it is suspended indefinitely, and if it is suspended indefinitely then it is, for all intents and purposes, eradicated. Habeus Corpus is the very bedrock of Western Democracy. Without it we have a totalitarian state.
When will you understand this?
‘Strong measures’ and ‘torture’ are as different as 43 deems them to be. That’s the problem.
‘...playing to a subject’s ego or pretending to be his friend.’ Gee! That sounds a bit chummy! Hell! They might start giving those foot massages next! Waterboarding is torture, whatever you say, and even your article says it isn’t effective. The bottom line is that torture used to be illegal. Now it isn’t. And that cannot be good in the long run. I know! Let’s waterboard George to see what he really knew about the WMD lies he told the world. Why not? It’s legal!
And how do you know that KSM didn’t just tell his torturers what they wanted to hear? You don’t. No-one does. And that’s another problem.
Timmer, it doesn’t bother me that America is the "Shining City on the Hill" so much as it is pretending to be the "Shining City on the Hill" while becoming ever more what it purports to despise, the dark dump in the swamp. I’d love it if you just sat around singing "Kumbaya" and redistributing all of your wealth to starving countries. It’s the least y’all could do. I wouldn’t accuse you of hiding messages hidden in the song and of poisoning the potatoes but I would make sure that both were fully vetted before hand. Hey! What have you got to hide?
Cheers
Elroy
PS. Thanks for reference, by the way. Well done! Gold star and elephant stamp for you!
Elroy -
Jeez...you are some hard work, boyo!
Valerie Plame was classified as a "covert" employee (which is very common with the CIA), but did not fill an undercover, overseas capacity for over five years when this "outing" happened. Even if she was a "super spy" (which she never was), there is no proof that she was ever dimed out maliciously by any of those good men that you listed. And if they are all guilty, where are the indictments, smart guy???
Libby screwed up, perhaps thinking he had to lie...and it cost him.
Congress authorized the President to do what he did, and you know it. "Mission Accomplished" referred to the aircraft carrier's mission, and I do recall GWB declaring "Major Combat Operations in Iraq are over"...which was admittedly premature, but he never declared an end to the war. You know that, too.
You will never know exactly what happened to KSM. An enemy is as likely to hear it as you, so there ya go, Sparky.
The U.S. is a "dark dump in the swamp!" Man, you are one disillusioned and angry guy. It is because of folks like you that folks like me often think that the "Shining City on the Hill" should just close it's golden gates and refill the moat...just cut the world off from all U.S. aid and assistance...just for a few years. Of course that would never happen, but it is funny to consider.
I can imagine the outrage - sort of like little spoiled children who suddenly don't get to play X-Box cuz they were naughty. But like rotten kids, much of the world would invariably realize what they had lost and come crawling, promising to play nice-nice.
Maybe even you?!
Valerie Plame was of the few covert agents who didn’t even operate under the protection of a ‘black’ or diplomatic passport, which meant that if she was caught she could face execution. How do you know, categorically, that she was desk jockey? Furthermore, outing Plame not only exposed her but also endangering all the assets and contacts she had ever made. This is no laughing matter
Of course, Karl Rove would NEVER act maliciously, would he? But why would Libby cover for them if they didn’t need cover? Just confirms what I have always thought – Republicans are either lying or stupid. And where, indeed, ARE those indictments?
On their way, hopefully.
Congress has never officially declared war on Iraq. Read it and weep. And how on earth did "Mission Accomplished" refer to the aircraft carrier's mission? You really are through the looking glass here, pal. Are you seriously telling me that GWB did that whole "Mission Accomplished" routine because the ship went away...and came back? LOL! next you’ll be telling me that GWB never said ‘stay the course’!
You know as well as I do that when GWB declared "Major Operations in Iraq are over" from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln he meant exactly that. The war was over. That’s what he said. ‘Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.’ The whole speech is in the past tense. ‘...WAS carried out...’, ‘..HAVE fought...’ Get it?
No-one will ever know exactly what happened to KSM, so there YOU go. Sparky.
I didn’t say that the the U.S. IS a ‘dark dump in the swamp’, I said it BECOMING one, an important distinction. You’re not there yet. And Timmer, if y’all DID chuck a major tantrum like, ahem, ‘little spoiled children who suddenly don't get to play X-Box cuz they were naughty’ and ‘close [your] golden gates and refill the moat...just cut the world off from all U.S. aid and assistance...just for a few years’ you would find that, ‘...like rotten kids...’, the USA ‘would invariably realize what they had lost and come crawling, promising to play nice-nice.’ because, believe it or not, you need us more than we need you. I’m not disillusioned. I am angry, but I am also hopeful that we, and that includes you, can return this world of ours to some sort of equilibrium.
Cheers
Elroy
Elroy -
Well, I don't much feel like repeating myself or rephrasing what I've already said. Except that you are hopelessly lost in the red haze of a leftist AND America-hating twilight zone.
And Elroy, one of the truly great things about the U.S. is that we really don't need anyone else - and that even before we became the only remaining superpower and that "Shining House on the Hill."
Having said that, I happen to love traveling the world (while most Americans never cross a border) and don't like snobby Americans (or Australians, for that matter)...but if it came down to it, even I could suck it up and turn my back if I felt it had come to that.
And oil dependence ain't gonna last forever, bub!
Cheers, T
How many times, in how many ways, must I tell you? I do NOT hate America! I merely think that the philosophy of your ruling elite and therefore, by extension, OUR ruling elite, is unsustainable and corrupt. I think that the majority of the population of your country are fine, upstanding citizens who wish the best for the whole planet; however, there is a noisy minority whose political party of choice currently hold the reins of power but that will soon change. In a couple of weeks, as it happens.
And Timmer, if you really think you don’t need anyone else then you really have no idea of what the real world is all about, and therein lies a paradox in that you also claim to love travelling the world. Curious. But given the state of global economics, the USA cannot afford to live without the rest of the world.
But can the rest of the world afford to live without the USA? Hey, in all honesty, at the rate you guys are going, maybe you SHOULD close your golden gates and refill the moats; then the rest of us can get on with saving the planet in peace.
I don’t like snobs either, Timmer; I don’t think Australia is the best country on earth by any means, and so I am honour bound to rectify that situation.
And I know oil dependence ain’t (sorry; IS NOT) going to last forever; soon there won’t be any. Or not that you and me can afford. Or are you of the belief that oil wells are self regenerating, an interesting notion taken seriously in some quarters? Or are you just going to invade Venezuela?
Or considering what burning fossil fuels does to the planet, maybe we should find a completely different fuel source? What sayest thou?
Cheers
Elroy
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