Reader Comments for Righting America >>>
Hey Timmer! How them E-lec-tron-i-cal voting machines treatin' y'all down on the farm? I understand Mare'land has been having its share of voter disenfranchising fun lately!
It light of that, this is but a quick note to remind you to miss 'Hacking Democracy' on HBO tonight, the 2nd of Nov, as it could contain information that might ruin your day. Or next tuesday. The best thing to do with docos like this is to reject them out of hand; after all, what if they were true? Best to stay in denial – its beautiful this time of year!
Or maybe you will suprise me? Here's hoping...
Cheers
Elroy
Timmer:
"[...] just like the world-famous time-pieces from that French-speaking, historically pacifistic alpine country [...]"
What are you blathering on about now? Are you referring to France? In that case you clearly don't know much about her geography or her history. And the famous time-pieces? They come from Switzerland but there they speak four languages...
Quel ignorance...
Gert -
Ahhh..let me just savor this moment (sigh!). I just LOVE IT when someone cries "ignoramus" at one who knows of what he speaks - rendering the haplessly decrying agent doubly foolish! 
Check out this link, my son: http://www.boston.com/news/polit...nection?
mode=PF
While it is true that more Swiss speak German as a first language, it is also true that French is the most understood by all Swiss (as the so-called "French-Swiss" avoid learning any German, but conversely the "German-Swiss" do learn French). And as you will read in the article, JK speaks French, but has an aversion to German much like the Swiss.
And (like John Kerry), I have been to Switzerland many times...but unlike this faux-cul I have an aversion to all things French!
Comprendre vous, mon ami!?
Ah but this 10 second sound bite excerpted from a longer speech is "well-placed, intentionally spun "Rovian" misquote". Look at the longer video, or see what Chris Matthews says here reading from the transcript, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V...h?
v=VknpwDtIaF4. And that is exactly the point. The more light shown on these kinds of tactics, the more the voting public will be turned off.
Revolucion de uno -
Of course, the likes of Jack Murtha and Hillary Clinton, along with lots and lots of other Democrats, apparently disagree with you - so I don't know where that leaves your argument.
As I just commented on your web site, the criminal you have featured as your logo tells me a lot about your politics...and if not, your defense of Kerry and fanship of Keith Olberman is overkill on the Flaming Lib-o-meter.
Nothing wrong with that, of course. But as I also told you, you (and Keith O) can thank some very brave men and women for giving you the right to express whatever your opinion is...that, despite traitors like John Kerry.
Thanks for your visit...Blog On!
Timmer, I know I haven't been by in a while, but I've been thinking about coming by every day. I just don't have the same time to visit everyone like I'd like, which sucks.
But!
I was highly offended as a military family member by Kerry's comments. He's a jerk and has an uppity attitude and Anti-American posture.
Amy -
Nice to hear from you! (and nice to have a FRIENDLY visit every once in a while! )
Timmer
Timmer:
You simply used an awkward phrase to describe Switzerland. I lived in Geneva for about a year. Many non-French speaking Swiss don't really consider the non-German speaking part to be all that Swiss. To describe Switzerland as a French-speaking country is misleading and simplistic.
As regards your Francophobia, it's borne out of ignorance. Tres Americain!
And regards Kerry, I thought you would be above the fray but I thought wrongly.
Aren't traitors [Kerry acc. you] supposed to executed?
Now Gert ---
Don't get yer knickers in a twist, mate...my sarcasm was simply lost on you - and you can see that now but would rather call me "clumsy" and "ignorant" (and take the piss out of my phraseology than admit that). No matter...you remain one of my favorite liberals regardless.
How can one be above such a blatant screw-up? He made a big Freudian mistake, and I called him out on it....like many in his own party, I might add.
And yes - I believe he is a traitor and should have been tried for that.
Happy now?
T
Anyroads: "John Kerry is dead, long live Ted Haggart" (LOL)
Gert -
Well, apparently we agree on something here. Although it is not on topic with this article, I thought you might enjoy my rant on the Haggard situation. Check out my comment (the first one) at
http://
amyproctor.squarespace.co...s.html#comments
And no - the Kerry thing isn't dead until the election (if us "neocons" can keep it going - hehehehehe!).
Timmer
It is ironic to see Bush criticising others for blowing their speeches – line-flubbing is his greatest skill! He once said ‘Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. ...’ and that OBGYN's are being denied the opportunity to practice their "love with women all over this country". Do these comments mean that Bush really wants to harm his country or endorses malpractice and assault?
Now, because the Right cannot or will not
understand the joke, here is a breakdown. Jokes work by turning expectations on their heads. Take this classic:
‘I say! – my dog has no nose!’
‘Your dog has no nose? Then how does he smell?’
‘Terrible!’
Get it? Logically, the answer should be ‘With great difficulty’, but that would not be funny. But it reversed your expectations. and therefore it was, to a degree, funny.
Now, it is a given that the POTUS is expected to be a wise and intelligent man. It is also a given that there is, rightly or wrongly, a perception among over half of US voters that GWB is a bit thick. So the basic joke runs more or less as follows:
‘If you don’t study hard, you could end up as President of the United States!’
Jay Leno has running this gag for years, and Kerry has been telling his variant for years too. Here, from his prepared text, what Kerry was SUPPOSED to say:
"I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."
Do you see what is missing? Two little letters, one little word: ‘us’.
It’s a small mistake for a man, but a giant cock-up for a politician in the cross-hairs of Right-wing attack dogs who see the gravy train coming to a shuddering halt.
Of course, your quote is NOT In context. you left out the preceding sentence: ‘Yesterday I was in President Bush’s home state of Texas. He no longer lives there. Now he lives in the state of denial’
And after his infamous remark, the speech went on ‘But in all seriousness, you know...’
There. Context. He made the remarks in the CONTEXT of those qualifying statements. Savvy?
On the subject of apologising, what about one from that other King of Komedy, GWB himself, for his drop-dead funny ‘Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somewhere...Nope. No weapons over there...maybe under here’ routine. Talk about respect the troops!
Of course, when it comes to supporting those brave men and women in uniform, you can’t go past this compassionate and sympathetic statement:
‘Soldiers are just cowards with their backs against the wall. The lowest IQ men in our society, those incapable of normal careers enlist. Their choice in life; prison or the military. Some will have to die in the support of our cause.’
What traitor wrote that? Take a bow, Ann Coulter! (Int
(Intervention Magazine, 11/06/03)
Cheers
Elroy
PS. Your last comment proves what I have always suspected; that conservatives are either lying or stupid. In this case it is the former. How honourable! You must be so proud!
Elroy, I don't think the President criticized Kerry for "blowing a speech", but for criticizing the troops. Look, we all know it if it was a slip up, it was a Freudian slip up. He has a long record of lambasting the troops, war and the flag. The book he wrote called "The New Soldier" shows a bunch of pot headed draftee soldiers and an upside down American flag on the cover. Everyone knows what he stands for and what he means.
Bush isn't very articulate, but neither was Moses. It's the leadership, man, not the speeches.
Elroy, where did Ann Coulter say:
'Soldiers are just cowards with their backs against the wall. The lowest IQ men in our society, those incapable of normal careers enlist. Their choice in life; prison or the military. Some will have to die in the support of our cause.’
If I know Ann Coulter at all, she's mimicking a liberal or being sarcastic. You go ahead and site the source for that quote and I'll check the context. I'm positive you've lifted it erroneously.
Elroy -
Looks like Amy beat me to it!
See, it really depends on the gravity of the slip-up...and if one has shown a pattern of something people find distasteful (in this case, John Kerry's oft-repeated disparagement of American servicemen throughout his entire public life) it will naturally resonate louder and wider....tefhem ya Yasser??
I see you are another one who shoots back with Bush's Roast Night WMD joke thing. Obviously, that one came back to bite George Bush a bit...but it is downright laughable how you and these others have rehashed that to ward off this outrage at Kerry. Guess what? It ain't workin'...and those Keith Olbermites who talk about it have been solidly against Bush anyway.
Kerry, on the other hand, has sealed his fate...to never set foot in the White House.
On your last comment (about MY last comment)... apparently you are still having a problem with understanding sarcasm other than your own. Lighten up, Yasser!
Timmer:
On Haggart, agreed 100%. Doesn't it worry you that Bush relies rather a lot on these wackjobs for votes?
"And no - the Kerry thing isn't dead until the election (if us "neocons" can keep it going - hehehehehe!)."
Well, at least you're honest about it. I think Sean Hannity's head's gonna pop off anytime soon for rehashing this bullshit ad nauseam. And your hero John McCain is also showing how disingenuous he is, all with that immutable poker face of his. Sorry, but I don't think the whole thing is going to do you all any good.
Elroy:
Reams, reams and reams of Bushisms. He might be the worst President ever but he's definitely the funniest one too...
That's true Gert; in my own strange way, I'm going to miss him. A little tiny bit. But I'll learn get over it. In time. Plenty of time. Plenty of Democrat congress, senate and White House time.
OK, Bush DIDN’T criticise Kerry for ‘blowing a speech’, it’s even worse; Bush criticised Kerry for saying something he obviously mean when all he did was ‘blowing a speech’, a phenomenon GWB knows well.
The point is that GWB knows exactly what happened, it happens to him all the time, yet he fraudulently insists on taking Kerry literally. I never thought GWB had the wit to be genuinely disingenuous but there, alas, I am proved wrong.
A Freudian slip, huh? Its good to see conservatives suddenly taking such an interest in Freud’s theories of psychoanalysis but tell me, how do arrive at this diagnosis? I trust you have spent the requisite 16 years medical training to become a Psychiatrist and entered into and extended period of therapy with Mr Kerry in order to reach that conclusion. No? You haven’t? Well, I hope you are not just parroting the line of that world renown psychoanalyst Michelle Malkin.
I understand that conservatives have pioneered the cutting edge discipline of unqualified diagnosis by video (Frist, Limbaugh), and I will say that their results have been impressively consistent – 100% wrong.
So, having proved that you do not know what you are talking about, I’ll move on.
Y’all need to careful, your conspiracy theories are showing. Kerry did not write The New Soldier, he was a contributor. Do you really imagine that he designed the cover himself? And that the vets in picture are trying send some kind of secret message with the upside-down flag? When I look at that cover, I understand what it was trying to convey. Why don’t you? Or do you condone war crimes against civilians?
And by what right do you invalidate the ‘Pot-headed draftees’ opinion? How dare you! These guys went to war! And they didn’t want to! Yet they did! What greater sacrifice can they make?
And yet you dare belittle their sacrifice because, when they returned, they told some home truths that you feel uncomfortable with? Kerry didn’t ‘lambast’ the troops, he told of his experiences. By what conceit do you assume the right to disparage their service for the sake of political expediency?
This attitude of yours is a kick in the teeth for all vets everywhere, as was your ‘Purple Band-aid’ schtick and, for Iraq vets, GWB’s ‘I like to tell people when the final history is written on Iraq, it will look like just a comma ...’ 3000 Dead troops are COMMAS? 655,000 dead Iraqis are, what? Semicolons? Way to respect the troops! You might glorify war, but you’ll find that most people that have been in one have no wish to repeat it.
And BTW how do you know how articulate Moses was? Ever talk to him? No, didn’t think so.
Cheers
Elroy
Gert -
Ummm...John McCain isn't my hero. But I respect him OODLES more than I respect DOTW Kerry.
Elroy -
Man, you are a trip! Seems to me that it might well be YOU who needs the shrink matey!
In one breath, you tell me I can't use the term "Freudian" because I don't have "the requisite 16 years medical training to become a Psychiatrist and entered into and extended period of therapy with Mr Kerry..."
And in the next, you PRESUME to speak for War Veterans to ME...the only one of us two who happens to BE a War Veteran?
Sorry my boy, but you come across as not only bitter, but very, very confused. And not through "16 years" of anything, but after 20 years of putting my own life on the line in the military forces of my country, I have earned the right to criticize these assholes...especially an asshole like Kerry who has hurt our servicemen time and again through his actions.
And Geoge Bush, who rarely joins the fray, was obviously angry at Kerry for making a statement that hurt the troops. You can qualify his "slip up" or "blunder" until your non-veteran face turns perrywinkle, but the Commander-in-Chief was well within his right to call this dumbass out for his hurtful words - whether Freudian or three-stoogeon, he offended hundreds of thousands in uniform.
Now go make that call, sparky....there is a couch in an office with your name on it!
I didn’t say no-one could use the term ‘Freudian’, I merely asked Amy, as happens, on what she based her diagnosis. I don’t presume anything. Am I not allowed to stand up for veterans? I thought you guys LIKED that kind of thing.
Oops! Wrong veterans! I’d better pull my head in then! I wouldn’t want to be accused of not unsupporting the troops!(?! What gives you the right to determine which veterans are fair game for denigration and which are not? Didn’t they put their lives on the line too?
Young men back from a horrendous war 35 years ago, a war that your precious president was too chicken to go near (‘Rarely’? Try ‘Actively shirk’), a war that saw some horrific abuses of humanity, they gave their honest testimony and you USE that to beat them with?
In the gravity stakes, Kerry’s ‘slip-up’, needs to pinned down with guy ropes lest it breaks free and sails up into outer space. Kerry does not disparage the troops gratuitously; he tells the truth. Sorry if that’s too hard for y’all.
I understand that conservatives, Ann Coulter in particular, has a problem with the Democrats wheeling out ‘victims’ like the Jersey girls and Cindy Sheean because, she whines, she isn’t allowed to critisise them. Not that it stops her, but anyway. Is it the same with soldiers? Am not allowed to mention the war because I’ve never been in one?
I’m not saying I know anything about war, anyway; I’m just sticking up for those that do. I thought you might have more honour. People are always going to diagree, Timmer, and memories are notoriously nay, scientifically proven to be unreliable. I thought three generations went to war to preserve the right to celebrate those differences. Or is that only the differences who prefer.
And just so you know, what you are doing to Kerry et al is not ‘excerising free speech’; you are indulging in nasty, partisan, character assasination.
You may have earnt the right to comment on matters military, GWB most certainly has not. His ‘Roast Night WMD joke thing’ was infinitly more insulting than Kerry’s unfortunate blunder, yet you give him a free pass. Unbelievable.
And when it comes to ‘rehashing’ well, count on the GOP’s little FOXhole to show us how its done. I keep seeing 35 year-old footage of Kerry giving his evidence to the senate in ‘71 over and over again? Why? Because it’s all you have on him?. Pathetic.
Obviously, the only people that are allowed to critisise those percieved to be holding the high moral ground, to rehash old news, be sarcastic, get quoted out of context, blow lines and make jokes at the troops expense are Repubs. Anyone else gets shot down. And that is a double standard.
And no, Timmer, I’m not bitter; I’m just angry. And BTW, you weren’t being ‘sarcastic’ – you were being cynical. You meant it. And you know it.
Cheers
Elroy.
PS
Speaking of the lovely Ann, I can’t find an accurate citation for that Ann Coulter quote, but that doesn’t matter now; our reactions to it tell us all we need to know.
I wanted to believe it. I do not like AC at all, and I fervently hope she goes to jail, so yes, in that respect I am biased. I thought her capable of that quote. But equally tellingly, you immediately defended her, demanded proof, said she was being sarcastic, or ‘mimicking a liberal’(?!), or being taken out of context, all without ever knowing whether she said it or not.
Do you see the similarities? Do you see what I’m getting at here?
E.
Elroy -
Your ability to talk in complete circles is a wonder to behold.
I was not insulted by the roast night thing. Bush was pretty funny, actually. I guess its only angry liberal comedy that you find amusing.
Kerry's history is shown over and over, because he keeps repeating it. Anyone with eyes sans liberal blinders can see it.
And on the Ann Coulter thing? I do see what you are getting at...you misquoted someone and are trying to find a way out of it. Not this time, bruddah...
T
Get over it, Timmer – I DID misquote, it seems. At least, I cannot prove that I did not. There. Good enough? I'm soooooooo sorry. But surely you see my larger point? How we both reacted to it without knowing if it were true or not? I find that interesting; you find it a reason to gloat. How grown-up of you! Ah well, I guess you've got to take your victories where you get them, although its a shame you are incapable of debating the wider implications.
It's the same with the Bush WMD thang; you didn't find Bush belittling the soldier's work insulting; I did.
But to my earlier point, although I don't think Bush MEANT to advocate malpractise and assault by OBGYs, or that he never stops tinking of new ways to harm his country, but nevertheless that is what he said. You know full well that Kerry didn't mean to insult the troops, but you bang that drum anyway and that is cynical and dishonest. Not that I expect anything less of Repubs, but anyway...
Bush may not have intentionally insulted the troops either, but he can hardly claim he misspoke – he meant every word. He didn't even NOTICE, or for that matter care, how that routine might have been interpreted, and that makes it even worse.
Talking of insultng the troops, how are you with the 'comma in history' line, or Rummy's 'Fight with the Amry you've got, not the Army you want' quip, or Broher blaming the Generals, or the lack of body armour, or the gutting of Vets benefits?
Alright with you, soldier?
I checked out Kerry's 'traitorous' statements, and I can't see the problem, unless you want to wilfully skew them for partisan purposes. Oh that's right, you do. The truth hurts Timmer; its laughable that Republicans, the ones that go on about Freedom™ and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, are the ones that hate what those concepts really entail – the freedom to tell the truth.
Kerry didn't denigrate the troops – he told of what he had seen and heard, and what others had told them they had seen and heard. What could be wrong with that? He could not, unlike the armchair generals of 2006 with their 20/20 hindsight specs perched afront their all-knowing
peepers, see the future. He did what he felt he had to do THEN. And he was not, and is still not alone.
And do you know what? The Army DOES terrify Iraqi women and children in the middle of night! Who do you think those Iraqis reckon the soldiers are? Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny? Of COURSE they are scared! Jeeeeez!
So Kerry has no record of doing anything but telling it like it is. Sorry that's too much for you. He is honest. And he made and honest mistake. And you know it, but are not honest enough to admit it.
Cheers
Elroy
Elroy -
Yes, you did. Glad to see your confession. You have been awarded one cool point.
Oops! You accuse me of gloating (pot to kettle?). You lose that recently earned cool point. Sorry.
See what I am doing here? I am assigning "points" - as you have done many times whilst gloating about imagined victories in our discussions. How grown up of YOU!
Yeah, Kerry is the Defender of Truth and Justice, a born-again HONEST ABE, the beacon in a sea of despair, the...ARRRRRGGHHH! I just can't play along, mate. I feel a chunder coming!
Your pal Kerry makes lots (and lots and lots) of mistakes...and for a blue-blooded "intellectual" that is BAD!
Yes, war terrorizes women and children in the dead of night...but that is not what this a$$hole meant.
And Kerry "has no record of doing anything but telling it like it is...He is honest?" Jesus, here comes that pukin' feelin' again!
And there are scores of decorated war veterans who were in Vietnam with him (during his abbreviated 6 month tour) who say something very, very different about John Kerry. Of course, to you these guys don't count, right?
Figures.
T
1) Thanks for the cool point. Now address the subject.
2) I don’t gloat. Yet. But it seems I can’t help winning. If you like you beat me, address the issues. Mate.
3) Assigning ‘points’ makes it easier to keep track of the arguments. You may not like it because it keeps you from fudging and being selective. Tough. It is also VERY grown up.
4) Kerry mistakes. Where? When? Which?
I’m waiting.
5) That is EXACTLY what he meant. If it is NOT what he meant, pray tell me tell me, what DID he mean?
6) There are scores of decorated war veterans who were in Vietnam who say something very, very different about John Kerry, but on further investigation it seems that they WEREN’T with him at the time.
If you had paying attention, you would have noted that the SBVF had their credibility shredded in 2004; in fact, I’m quietly amused that you are STILL willing to use them to bolster your ‘argument’. Gee, it must be a lonely time for you and John O’Neil, but I’m sure he will buy y’all a beer, being the last men standing and all. Sorry, he probably won’t be there in person, but he’ll know someone that was there after you left, or before you arrived, or was at a bar down the street, or who knew the barman. Or something. That you exhume these old buzzards to help your case just shows how bankrupt it really is.
I mean these guys no disrespect, but they might count for a bit more if they were actually there and did not have such a blatantly partisan and well Republican funded axe to grind. However, it seems that you are quite willing to take them at their word simply because you like what they have to say.
Figures.
Cheers
Elroy
Oi! Where's my post! I'm SURE I put it 'round here somewhere! C'mon Timmer, I know it was a sticky one for you, but deleting it like that is, well, a bit Orwellian, don't you think?
Cheers
Elroy
Elroy -
Whaaa? Your post has gone missing??? Well, you must have broken one or more of the rules we have discussed! Let's see...could it have been consecutive comment postings? Hmmm...maybe it was OFF TOPIC?
Gotta hate those damned rules! Orwell would definitely NOT APPROVE!!!
Well, yes, it WAS a consecutive post, that's true, but how long was I going to have to wait for someone else to post before I could? I mean, for crying out loud, it's not like people are queuing up! It's just me and you, fella!
And off topic? Au contraire! It was very much ON topic, thank you very much! We were discussing what people said as opposed to what they MEANT to say. You said Kerry said X – I said he MEANT to say Y. I said BUSH said X – you said that was off-topic! I'm was just trying to show you how many ways one can interpret stuff.
The thing about rules is knowing when to apply them. Such a strict approach to their application as you display could be described, by one less charitable as myself, as authoritarian. Ironic, is it not, that them Freedom™ lovin' conservatives are always the most obdurate?
We're free, it seems, only if you say so. There's that ghost of Eric Blair again!
Cheers
Elroy
Elroy -
Okay - let's test that. YOU ARE NOT FREE, ELROY...SO GO TO YOUR ROOM FOR A LONG TIMEOUT!!!!
Did it work? Eric thought it might...
Yeah, that didn’t work at all. See, another thing about rules is you need effective sanctions in order to enforce them. You can keep me more or less on the straight and narrow replying to your polemics by threatening to delete me; you cannot, however, keep me in my room.
So am I free? Again, I am as free as the ruling elite allows me to be. Some are more restrictive and oppressive than others, which is why I am particularly perturbed by the current White House administration; I don’t know if have noticed, but the Homeland Security and oh-so-ironically named PATRIOT acts are demonstrably repressive.
I am by no means arguing that the current US admin is the worst offender in this regard – there are certainly some far more egregious regimes out there – but if the USA is to preach high standards to the world, then it has to hold itself to higher ones; if you don’t think that is ‘fair’ then stop trying to remake the world in your image.
Since the US assumed/seized control of the international policy agenda, using its financial and military hegemony to involve itself on the internal machinations of governments everywhere, counties around the world follow America’s example; if the US do it, it must be OK.
The international community did not ask the US to spend the last 60-odd years throwing its weight around and claiming to be the light of the world, but now that it has it must live up to the ideals it professes to embody,
You crack down on dissent, and by extension, freedom, with fear. But using fear to ones political advantage is nothing new, Timmer. Here’s your beloved General Douglas MacArthur:
‘Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.’
Seems applicable to me. And this from the great man:
‘Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.’
Uncanny, huh? It’s as if he could...see the future! Hey! What’s this?
‘Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency.’
Yup! Its official! MacArthur was psychic! Or maybe he just recognised want governments get up to.
So. What’s it to be? If you wanna be the world to be a free and peaceful place, try being free and peaceful. VERY free and VERY peaceful. Even if you think you’ve been attacked. In fact, PARTICULARLY if you think you’ve been attacked.
If you are to continue to rule the world (which you do), you are required to uphold a standard to which others must aspire, not to which other must stoop. Its your choice.
Mr Blair knows all about this stuff. That's why hhe wrote them books. Did you notice?
Cheers
Elroy
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