The Mind of Timm's Readers
I dont know that I agree with you that Eve tries to "match wits" with the serpent, but merely responds to his question.
Also, maybe I am reading it wrong, but the sentence: "God did not tell Adam and Eve they could not touch the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, only that they could not eat of it." Is incorrect.
Verse 3 says "...God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’"
To which the serpent replies is verse 4.
Its also interesting to me, how the devil tempts. He doesn't tell a whole lie, as they do know good and evil... the interesting thing to me is the assumption that Adam & Eve will be able to resist evil, like God; that is the whole truth.
I think the devil often uses half truths, or partial truths to tempt us, because we see the truth in it, however we must seeks the whole truth.
Lastly, it is important to note that Adam was with Eve, not in another part of the garden to which Eve had to go find. Adam was WITH her.
This is where I conclude, like you "Adam is declared to be the original sinner because he is the head of the human race and responsible for it’s actions."
The Devil's use of half truths also plays along with the human tendency to rationalize ANYTHING, even if there is specific and deliberate instruction against it! If there is a bit of truth in an idea, then we as humans can justify our actions with things along the lines of "the ends justify the means" ideal or "this makes me feel good and God doesn't want me to suffer" and such.
Layne,
I dont know that I agree with you that Eve tries to "match wits" with the serpent, but merely responds to his question.
Maybe I should have clarified. The bible tells us that we should not even engage with the devil. That includes responding to his questions. Biblicly speaking, a Christians proper response to the devil is to TURN AND RUN!
Also, maybe I am reading it wrong, but the sentence: "God did not tell Adam and Eve they could not touch the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, only that they could not eat of it." Is incorrect.
Verse 3 says "...God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’"
This is what Eve says that God said. What God actually said is found in Genesis 2:16-17; "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Deron,
I couldn't agree more. It's sad just how clueless we, as humans, actually are.
"a Christians proper response to the devil is to TURN AND RUN"
I might sound naive, but can you show me a verse saying this?
Good catch, Layne.
It doesn't say that we should literally turn and run. It says that we should resist the devil, but it never says that we should engage the devil. The only ones I know of who did, are Eve (who failed miserably,) and Jesus.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. -- 1 Peter 5:8-9 (NIV says "Resist him, standing firm in the faith")
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. -- James 4:7
The point is that we should not try to match wits with the devil and as eve shows us, we probably should not even give him the time of day. A proper Christian response is to "resist him," not to engage him in debate.
"Satan had managed to trick Adam and Eve through his subtlety and cunning."
I would disagree that Adam was tricked. 1 Timothy 2:14 says "Adam was not deceived".
I will concur with what has been said about Satan.
2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
I would disagree that Adam was tricked. 1 Timothy 2:14 says "Adam was not deceived".
Good point,Craig. So was Adam just along for the ride, or did he willingly and purposefully disobey God?
Resist... As in, to give resistance. When you really look at the word, praying for the devil, or any form of hindering the devil can cause resistance.
Christ as our example, I do not believe that we should go looking for trouble, but I believe that when trouble arises, God has empowered us to conquer it.
As far as engaging in wit, I cannot help but believe wit is greatly needed if ever dealing with demonic possession.
Within my own life, not at all suggesting possession, I know that my pastor needed wit, knowledge and understanding (all given from the God, no doubt).
This brings me to a favorite quote of mine: "When thou sleepest, think that thou art resting on the battlefield; when thou walkest, suspect an ambush in every hedge." -Charles Spurgeon
"So was Adam just along for the ride, or did he willingly and purposefully disobey God?"
I would say that since Adam ate the apple without deception the Fall ultimately rests with Adam since he chose to disobey God apart from being deceived.
Layne,
Again, I don't believe it is wise for a Christian to engage with the devil. We are just sheep with Jesus as our Shepard. What does a sheep do when confronted by a wolf? He either get's saved by the Shepard or eaten by the wolf.
Satan is not just another one of God's creations. He is smarter than us and more cunning than us. You've stated that it is God that gives us the strength to take care of him, which I reluctantly agree with, but I would warn anyone that the Shepard is the only one that can save us or cause us to do any good. Trust in him and only him for matters like this.
I think I agree with Layne.
Call on Christ to defeat the Liar.
When the devil confronted Luther and accussed him of all sorts of vile sin, Luther said to the devil, "yeah...you're right...what of it?"
"I have a Savior in Christ Jesus. He has dies for all those sins."
(or something like that)
How was Adam (and Eve) to know that disobedience was a bad thing before he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
How come they didn't die, like God said they would? I've heard the explanation that they died 'spiritually' but it never sounded very convincing - is there something in the Hebrew use of of specific words that could help out there?
What did the serpent actually do wrong? Why wasn't God watching/intervening?
Why was the serpent in the Garden in the first place? If it's Satan then he's fallen and shouldn't have been on 'Holy Ground', if it's pre-fallen-angels then why is he tricking Adam?
So many questions and we're still int the first couple of pages!
Regards,
"How was Adam (and Eve) to know that disobedience was a bad thing before he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?"
Valid question. Ephesians says that it was God's plan to save mankind before the beginning of time. I would propose to you that Adam was expected to fall short. God already knew that he would eat the fruit when He told him not to.
"How come they didn't die, like God said they would?"
He did. Some say that he died spiritually, as you have suggested. Nonetheless, when he ate the fruit, he was banished from the garden, therefore banned from eating the fruit of the tree of Life as well. because of this, eventually, he died.
"What did the serpent actually do wrong?"
He tempted Adam and Eve to doubt God's word, add to God's word and deny God's word outright.
"Why wasn't God watching/intervening?"
Refer back to my first point. The fall of man was a part of God's plan from the beginning.
"Why was the serpent in the Garden in the first place? If it's Satan then he's fallen and shouldn't have been on 'Holy Ground', if it's pre-fallen-angels then why is he tricking Adam?"
The Serpent was one of God's created creatures, just like every other animal in the garden. He belonged there. He was possessed by Satan. The book of Job describes Satan approaching God Himself, (in Heaven.) I'm not sure that he is not allowed on 'Holy Ground.' It is not 'pre-fallen-angels.' Obviously Satan and his followers were cast out of Heaven before these events take place.
To really get the best understanding of the Bible, read The Good Person Test, then repent and Trust Jesus as your Savior.
To get the best understanding of the Bible, become a Christian. Makes sense really, but I reject a number of the base premises so it's probably not going to work out for me like that. Thanks though!
The rest of your answers were very thorough and helpful; cheers.
However, one thing is nagging at me. You say that it was God's plan all along for Adam (and the rest of mankind) to Fall - presumably so that some of them could be redeemed at a later date - and that He knew that Adam would eat the fruit even before He forbade him.
I have a question about this.
Why?
I tried. 
I'll need more than my cell phone to answer that one. Let me get back to you tomorrow, when I'm at my computer.
I got to my wife's computer. :P
Matt,
I don't know that I could ever TRULY answer your question. I think there are certain things for God to know and for us to only speculate on. That being said, here's what I think:
It seems an overwhelming theme in the Bible is that the creation as a whole was made to reflect God's glory. Keeping that in mind, we can confidently say that the reason God even created man in the first place was also to reflect God's glory. I was thinking about your question as I ate dinner tonight and I got to thinking, "what better way for God to manifest His glory than through the redemption story?"
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." --John 15:13
Some might also argue it was so we could choose. He created us with a free will because he wanted us to choose Him instead of sin, but Adam chose to sin, therefor defying God. We all sin because of Adam and because we choose to, but God did that so we could worship Him freely because we love Him, not because He makes us.
It seems like an odd way to glorify yourself, but who am I to question God's motives, eh?
I just find it strange that, with full foreknowledge of all the millions of souls who would end up being tortured in Hell for eternity, God still went ahead with His plan - even though only a tiny minority of people would actually get what it was He was trying to do.
That's always been a major source of confusion for me when it comes to contemplating Christian theology.
Thanks again for your replies.
Cheers,
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