So help your readers out here...you're Jewish, I'm Catholic. Christ was Jewish, and obviously His mother Mary was. They both observed the Jewish traditions; Mary was devout, starting at about the age of reason and continuing throughout Christ's life...Christmas is a celebration of the Nativity. Mary and Joseph traveling to Bethlehem, to be accounted for in a census...Mary giving birth to Jesus. Dec. 25th being the "memorial" of Jesus' birth. His birthday. Advent the preparation for His birth. I understand that the "holiday" is not celebrated as it should be, as it must be, but I do believe that you at least acknowledge that He was born? So don't celebrate the secular day, and ignore the commercialization, and honor other people's celebration for the true "memorial" of the day? Forgive my ignorance, but what is it? Christians and Catholics are being persecuted at this moment, check the Supreme Ct. for references. Our "traditions" etc. get stomped on all the time, but we don't cry foul. Help me understand.
Ah yes. My favorite specious, condescending argument exhorting Grinchy Jews to calm the hell down: the old "Christ was Jewish" chestnut. Welcome, old friend.
There is no "secular" Christmas day! It's a CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY and therefore, non-Christians shouldn't have to celebrate it. End of story. And define "honor other people's traditions," please? Does this mean you have to sing songs praising the "savior's" birth, just because others are doing it and you might offend them if you refuse? I assume, then, that you have a "secular" Passover dinner every year, out of respect to your Jewish brethren? Shall I send you a dreidel?
Also, are you for real? No one is "persecuting" you or stomping on your traditions and I feel I must point out that you are, actually, "crying foul." Just saying. The last time I checked you and your fellow Christians were in the VAST majority in this country, so you'll pardon me if I don't have any sympathy for you.
TC, sorry to start a fight in your comments.
Ah, I'm naive. I'm quite aware of that fact. But I'm also educated. Forgive my un-educated kinsmen - they bug the shit out of me too.
So I may be in the minority, that small group that does in fact respect Jewish traditions...and I apologize, again, for the folks out there who don't share that respect. To not do so is to deny Christ, really. Most people have a knee-jerk reaction to any belief that is not their own...and instead of educating themselves, they perpetuate the ignorance to their children.
Not telling you to calm down, TC...I suppose what I'm saying is that we both feel may feel like we're being persecuted (ah, perception...I'd like to think it's reality, but...)...and what are we going to do about it. Complain, and continue year after year to be insulted? Or start something, do something about it?
There's alot of history between us and them, as can be said of any religion. But the shared history can't be denied...and I respect that. When I get defensive or spew hate or be disrepectful of any religion, again, I'm perpetuating the hate. But if I see the commonality, the shared goal...embrace the differences and educate myself...well, then, yes, maybe I will sit down with my Jewish friends at Passover, because it's a shared part of our history.
I am certainly no expert, but I think the difference is that Jews don't believe that Jesus was on Earth already, they are waiting for him to come the first time, while Christians are waiting for him to come a second time. So celebrating a "birthday" would be a moot point. (I studied nothing of either religion, though, so I could be wrong. Heh.)
Well, I LIKE it when I see the big Menorah van driving around, and I LIKE to see blue lights and dreidels and bags of gelt. And I LIKE it when my daughter celebrates passover at her school, and I am GLAD to know that people are free to celebrate their beliefs. And I am GRATEFUL when I have friends who can educate me about their beliefs.
Heh. And I am EMPHATIC with the old capitals here, too!
Libby, Jews don't necessarily disbelieve Jesus lived 2000 years ago, but we/they definitely don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus, far as I'm concerned? A man. A good man, I think, a leader. That's all, though. And the hymns and rituals -- the creche, the Wise Men, all that, it's steeped in religiosity, you can't say otherwise.
Tricia, it's NOT secular to celebrate one man's birth with such specifically religious symbolism. When we celebrate Martin Luther King's birthday, we talk about the man and what he did. When we celebrate Christ's supposed birthday (and Xmas is not the date of his birth), we talk about what? His life? Not so much. The manner of his birth and his death, the mythology around it. Immaculate conception, annunciation, etc. The basis of a huge religion.
Bee, it's not analogous to the Menorah van. You're not being pulled along behind the van will-you won't-you. But Emily's being coerced into joining the Christmas parade. My own feelings on the subject are somewhat different from TC's, but I'm with her on this -- nobody should have Christmas forced down their throats.
I said I could be wrong, and I was right!
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