Amen brother.
I thought that article of Gellman's was an unforgivable example of willfull stupidity. I seek out intelligent voices that challenge my views, but Gellman's on the twit list now. Looking forward to meeting you at OPML Camp!
Cheers, -red
Willed ignorance? Most probably.
As for OPML Camp - I'm really looking forward to it. Thanks!
2006-04-30EDT21:22:31+00:00
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As for OPML Camp - I'm really looking forward to it. Thanks!
I'm not out to change your views or get in an argument, but I too have noticed that there are alot of vocal anti-religious voices that seem to be angry.
I understand the arguments about science, observation, etc. I also understand the arguments against an organized church with all of its failings, as it is run by humans.
What I truly do not understand is why many atheists rebel against some of the core principles of religion...love, unlimited forgiveness, charity, etc etc.
If the world really ran 100% based on the ten commandments would it really be a bad thing? If everyone followed Jesus' example to the letter, would life be bad? I argue that it would be more fulfilling for everyone.
I would like to hear arguments on those ideas. I dont want to hear about clergy, church, etc.
The whole idea of God, when its distilled down, is nothing to do with a church structure, the heirarchy of clergy, or a Rabbi's comments....its about unconditional love, forgiveness...etc
I think many of the atheists need to be more clear in their responses...and maybe I'm wrong...but most dont like the idea of being constrained at all in their personal choices....but I go back and ask, if we followed Jesus' examples totally....how could that ever be bad????
2006-05-01EDT03:52:33+00:00
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I understand the arguments about science, observation, etc. I also understand the arguments against an organized church with all of its failings, as it is run by humans.
What I truly do not understand is why many atheists rebel against some of the core principles of religion...love, unlimited forgiveness, charity, etc etc.
If the world really ran 100% based on the ten commandments would it really be a bad thing? If everyone followed Jesus' example to the letter, would life be bad? I argue that it would be more fulfilling for everyone.
I would like to hear arguments on those ideas. I dont want to hear about clergy, church, etc.
The whole idea of God, when its distilled down, is nothing to do with a church structure, the heirarchy of clergy, or a Rabbi's comments....its about unconditional love, forgiveness...etc
I think many of the atheists need to be more clear in their responses...and maybe I'm wrong...but most dont like the idea of being constrained at all in their personal choices....but I go back and ask, if we followed Jesus' examples totally....how could that ever be bad????
Mike McDuggan,
Are you suggesting that there are no angry religious voices? Have you heard of the Phelps clan who protest at soldiers funerals? Are you aware of Christian students who disrupt their science classes when evolution is being taught? Are you aware of all of the anger and hostility many Christians have toward homosexuals, Jews, women's rights activists, prochoicers, etc.
The men who carried out the 9/11 attacks were theists. They seemed awful angry to me.
Nonbelievers are generally angry because we are tired of believers screwing up the world. We are tired of rightwing believers trying to push their personal view of morality on all of us.
"What I truly do not understand is why many atheists rebel against some of the core principles of religion...love, unlimited forgiveness, charity, etc etc." Atheists don't rebel against love, forgiveness or charity. These are all good things but they are absolutely not the core of religion. Read your Bible. It is one of the most violent, sexually perverted books ever written.
If we were to truly follow the "core principles of religion" in this country we would have regular stonings, child marriages, polygamy, oppression of women, etc.
"most dont like the idea of being constrained at all in their personal choices"
Some of the most troubled and immoral people I have known were practicing Christians. Of course, Christians can always ask for forgiveness, so they do not need to be constrained in their personal choices either. What a loophole!
You might think I'm saying this out of anger but I'm not. No matter how clear atheists express our views we always have to put up with ignorant ideas like religion is the source of morality (thankfully that's not true or we would be forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, men would be able to have lots of wives and concubines, and parents could stone their children for being disobedient). I'm not angry, just frustrated by ignorance and bigotry from people like you.
2006-05-01EDT07:08:48+00:00
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Are you suggesting that there are no angry religious voices? Have you heard of the Phelps clan who protest at soldiers funerals? Are you aware of Christian students who disrupt their science classes when evolution is being taught? Are you aware of all of the anger and hostility many Christians have toward homosexuals, Jews, women's rights activists, prochoicers, etc.
The men who carried out the 9/11 attacks were theists. They seemed awful angry to me.
Nonbelievers are generally angry because we are tired of believers screwing up the world. We are tired of rightwing believers trying to push their personal view of morality on all of us.
"What I truly do not understand is why many atheists rebel against some of the core principles of religion...love, unlimited forgiveness, charity, etc etc." Atheists don't rebel against love, forgiveness or charity. These are all good things but they are absolutely not the core of religion. Read your Bible. It is one of the most violent, sexually perverted books ever written.
If we were to truly follow the "core principles of religion" in this country we would have regular stonings, child marriages, polygamy, oppression of women, etc.
"most dont like the idea of being constrained at all in their personal choices"
Some of the most troubled and immoral people I have known were practicing Christians. Of course, Christians can always ask for forgiveness, so they do not need to be constrained in their personal choices either. What a loophole!
You might think I'm saying this out of anger but I'm not. No matter how clear atheists express our views we always have to put up with ignorant ideas like religion is the source of morality (thankfully that's not true or we would be forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, men would be able to have lots of wives and concubines, and parents could stone their children for being disobedient). I'm not angry, just frustrated by ignorance and bigotry from people like you.
I have posted an extended response to Mr McDuggan:
http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris/ ...eligionAsEthics
2006-05-01EDT09:51:46+00:00
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http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris/ ...eligionAsEthics
We are tired of being told that the only way to avoid "eternal damnation" is to agree with everything religious folk say. Especially when many of them seem so determined to damn us all to a world of war, famine and polution.
And as for those christians that hold up christ as an example and ask us what's wrong with his actions.. I just want to know if the person who is asking that considers their life a christ-like life. Has anyone here seen or met a christ-like christian lately? Let's see.. be a pacifist, work along side the poor, give away all belongings, seek martyrdom? Anyone?
Ken
2006-05-01EDT20:52:50+00:00
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And as for those christians that hold up christ as an example and ask us what's wrong with his actions.. I just want to know if the person who is asking that considers their life a christ-like life. Has anyone here seen or met a christ-like christian lately? Let's see.. be a pacifist, work along side the poor, give away all belongings, seek martyrdom? Anyone?
Ken
Wow, good job, I couldn't have said it better myself. As a matter of fact I didn't even think I WAS angry until now, it's about time we started standing up for our rights.
Thank you for the insight.
2006-05-02EDT12:57:57+00:00
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Thank you for the insight.
Mike McDuggan,
As an atheist I find many "christians" to be angry with anyone who happens not to share their "core principles of religion". Interestingly, I also find dishonesty, malice, hatred, violence, bigotry and racism at the "core" of most people who profess to be so "christlike". I listen to many conversations about "angry atheists" from people who assume (as is usually the case) that I subscribe to their mentality. I just sit quietly and observe with, I must admit, smug satisfaction of their blatant disregard of their own "core principles of religion".
Example:
I was shopping one day and placed a large item on the bottom the shopping cart. After checking out I headed to the parking lot and proceeded to load my purchases into my car. Realizing that the item at the bottom of the cart had been overlooked, I went back inside to pay for it. The woman at the service desk was amazed that I had come back! She actually told me that had never happened before and thanked me for my honesty, to which I replied "If I didn't want to pay for it I wouldn't have put it in the cart in the first place." She then thanked me for my "christianity", which I found most amusing.
Now, my question to you is: Do you honestly believe I was the first person to notice that I had unintentionally stolen merchandise from that store? And since I, as do most atheists, live in a predominantly "christian community", why would someone be so amazed with honesty?
So, now, lets have an honest discussion about "constraint of personal choices" and "core principles of religion".
Cindi
2006-05-02EDT15:18:18+00:00
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As an atheist I find many "christians" to be angry with anyone who happens not to share their "core principles of religion". Interestingly, I also find dishonesty, malice, hatred, violence, bigotry and racism at the "core" of most people who profess to be so "christlike". I listen to many conversations about "angry atheists" from people who assume (as is usually the case) that I subscribe to their mentality. I just sit quietly and observe with, I must admit, smug satisfaction of their blatant disregard of their own "core principles of religion".
Example:
I was shopping one day and placed a large item on the bottom the shopping cart. After checking out I headed to the parking lot and proceeded to load my purchases into my car. Realizing that the item at the bottom of the cart had been overlooked, I went back inside to pay for it. The woman at the service desk was amazed that I had come back! She actually told me that had never happened before and thanked me for my honesty, to which I replied "If I didn't want to pay for it I wouldn't have put it in the cart in the first place." She then thanked me for my "christianity", which I found most amusing.
Now, my question to you is: Do you honestly believe I was the first person to notice that I had unintentionally stolen merchandise from that store? And since I, as do most atheists, live in a predominantly "christian community", why would someone be so amazed with honesty?
So, now, lets have an honest discussion about "constraint of personal choices" and "core principles of religion".
Cindi
