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I agree but you're wasting your cyberbreath.
Funny how the anti-war zealots commit violence to protest the violence of war. "Not in my name" they sceam as they break windows and vandalize private property with paint and grafitti. "Stop the violence" they chant as they throw rocks at police, not caring if that rock hurts anyone.
If I were into violent fantasies I think one would be beating these morons. Not that it would do any good.
pig/dog | 03.24.08 - 9:24 am | #

I'm just tired of the moronic prattle. "You guys treat this like a football game". No, asshole. We treat it like a life or death struggle with pure evil. The kind of evil that believes God wants people to kill each other in His name.
The kind of evil that straps bombs on mentally retarded women and triggers the remotely.
The kind of evil that says if you disagree with me I will kill you.

How basically stupid do you have to be not to grasp this?
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 9:30 am | #

If you don't acknowledge evil then it doesn't exist. Right?
It's so much easier to romp with unicorns and follow the pretty butterflies then it is to confront the existance of evil. Surely if we just sit down and talk with these people they'll see we're not so bad and we can all hug and go back to watching tv.
pig/dog | 03.24.08 - 10:43 am | #

I agree although I think that tension existed even earlier. Obviously the Arab-Israeli conflict produced its own set of insurgents although they were mostly focused on Israel and Europe. There were a fair number of hijackings and smaller attacks. Today Instapundit was reminded by a reader of an attack in Washington DC in 1977 which, like he I'd never heard of. It was focused on some now obscure free prisoners demand but one of their other demands was to stop the release of a movie about the Prophet Mohammed that they considered sacriligous. A promising young black radio reporter was killed and Marion Barry who was a city council member was shot and nearly died. All this went down the memory hole apparently. Here a link to the story of a retrospective in the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp...7031101562.html

There was an attack by a group of radical Muslims in Trinidad in the early late 80s or early 90s. It was a violent attack on their parliament building and I believe one MP was killed. I remember at the time people dismissed it as something less than a coup, that the guy was just a nutter with a personal grudge but later I read that this guy had had a history of associations with islamic jihadists and had travelled in the middle east. It's still quite possible he was just a crazy guy but in light of more recent history, it looks a little different.
Margaret | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 10:51 am | #

I remember that movie. It was titled "The Messenger", as I recall, and starred Anthony Quinn. I think he played Abu Bakr. The movie flopped, and one reason was they never showed the Prophet (PBUH) because it was forbidden.

You are right about this conflict being very old. The Ottomans took the side of Germany in WWI, which is why Britain got the protectorate of Palestine.

These evil people have very long memories, a trait we in the West seem to lack.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 11:00 am | #

Not a war? Lets see:

"1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air. CHECK
2.a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other. CHECK
3.a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: CHECK
4.active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words. CHECK
6.a struggle: a war for men's minds; a war against poverty. CHECK

I think its a war boys. And I would bet the families of the 4000 fallen heroes would agree. It dishonors the military to call it anything else.

Hell, you've called it a war, MIC has called it a war, Rush, O'reilly et al have called it a war. Even you're candidate, who actually fought in a war, has called it one, and he should know.

So again, desperation calls for another tactic, more rhetoric to take the message away from the reality. Its a war, an unnecessary one, and one in which the surge is showing signs of falling apart. The death toll rises, Petraeus is reconsidering troop withdrawals and MIC and the rest of our leaders have to sneak into Bagdhad unannounced, surrounded by hundreds of troops.

Meanwhile, our currency continues to decline in value, and the economy is headed downward. Thankfully, McCain is traveling abroad and recognizing that it does matter what the rest of the world thinks -- one's reputation is critical. I dont agree with his support of the war but even if he's elected, it will change.

Sorry, but moonbats are those who follow a failed leader and his policies.

And Kermit, get your facts right. The US military admitted that the mentally retarded woman story was bullshit. "The kind of evil that straps bombs on mentally retarded women and triggers the remotely."
Al Gore | 03.24.08 - 11:19 am | #

You don't get "context", do you Al?
Wait, are you Al 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5? I suppose it doesn't matter. You all read from the same script.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 11:27 am | #

We treat it like a life or death struggle with pure evil.

Uh huh. Hey remember this...

We must stop the terror. I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these terrorist killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive...

Yup. Epic struggle. But hey, nothing interrupts a good golf game. Or a good old Southern Texas barbecue.

Hey! Where's Riley been lately?

And speaking of life or death struggles with pure evil, thank God you guys are doing your part. To think it was only a few months ago that you all got together to contribute what you could to support the cause.

If I recall, the plans laid out by you fearless leader said,

I think we'll stick to Tomasi Pinot Grigio and a decent Chardonnay for the white and assorted reds. (I have some aging bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon so if you really like Cabs we can open some 5 and 7-year-old bottles.)

The scotch selection is kind of weak this year, I will have only about 10 to 12 bottles. If you want to help with this problem, I'd be very grateful.

The cigar situation is much better; I have about 400 sticks in the cooler with a pretty wide variety of smokes to choose from.

My God. Thanks to you all for your brave service to your country. I can't imagine what it must have been like having to struggle through only 10 - 12 bottles of Scotch. We all make difficult sacrifices and contribute in our own little ways in this struggle against pure evil don't we...

They are almost without exception brave, honorable and noble people that love their country and wish to protect it. They have my deepest grattitude (sic) and undying respect.

How about the guys and the women coming back criticizing the war, er, I mean the Iraq "theater in a much larger conflict" and calling for an end to it?

Do they also get your deepest gratitude and undying respect too kermit? What if they're the ones marching down a street chanting "No More War"? Are they lower than snake spit?

Edited By Siteowner
Doug | 03.24.08 - 12:16 pm | #

As long as they speak the truth. If they lie and fabricate BS like John Kerry then they can kiss my ass.
pig/dog | 03.24.08 - 12:22 pm | #

Doug, those meds usually take a few days to kick in.
Meanwhile, WTF does Il Duce hosting a party have to do with anything? You are so pathetec (sic) with this line.

I love how you try to liberally apply tar and feathers, but gosh darn it, they never seem to stick. Maybe it's because you take people's comments out of context. The people that are lower than snake spit are the smelly hippies and self-righteous assholes like...well, you know, dontcha, sport?
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 12:28 pm | #

Doug there's a lot more guys coming back and calling for us to finish the job then to retreat. Keep an eye on the news on Tuesday and you'll see some of them.

I think what Kermit was trying to say is that in the larger War on Terror, there is the Iraq theater and the Afghanistan theater. Just as in WWII we had the European theater, the African theater, and the Pacific theater.

So Iraq is war, but it is not THE war.
Dave Thul | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 1:02 pm | #

Doug appears to have missed the drive that LL did to send things to the troops. He also has failed to realize that there are people on this blog that do not feel that our deeds to help the troops need to be broadcast on this blog for his approval.
Brent | 03.24.08 - 1:07 pm | #

Dave
Are you going to be at Ft Snelling Tues nite?
pig/dog | 03.24.08 - 1:23 pm | #

Maybe it's because you take people's comments out of context.

You didn't answer the question Kermit.

Do the men and the women coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan criticizing your poetic Iraq "theater" get your deepest gratitude and undying respect too kermit?

That's not talking anything out of context. That's a simple question.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 1:57 pm | #

(PBUH) ?!!!

WTF is the matter with you?
Gettin ready to play Dhimmi for your new Islamic masters?
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 2:06 pm | #

My poetic Iraq "theater"?
(edited out of respect for the site. Doug can just imagine my opinion.)
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 2:13 pm | #

Kermit...I don't think that is was necessary for you to sink to that level.

If you want to be done with him, then be done with him...but there is no need to tell him and certainly no need to call him names like that...

As I point out to others, it just makes you arguments look weak an emotional.
Brent | 03.24.08 - 2:19 pm | #

Brent
Kermit has gone out of his way to be civil to that asshole and all he ever gets is the same old shit.
pig/dog | 03.24.08 - 2:27 pm | #

Doug, what's the difference if these guys like scotch and cigars?

They buy into the GWOT, but they're skeptical of the MMGW.

I don't think I buy either one.
Ed Salden | 03.24.08 - 2:44 pm | #

Kermit, if you insist on calling the GWOT a war, you have to admit that it's an unusual sort of war.

So unusual that I don't think it fits any literal definition. It's more of a metaphorical war, like the war on poverty.
Ed Salden | 03.24.08 - 2:55 pm | #

Kermit has gone out of his way to be civil to that asshole and all he ever gets is the same old shit.

Schwein-hund, I don't disagree with this statement...I just disagree with the way Kermit handled it. But that is just my opinion.
Brent | 03.24.08 - 3:00 pm | #

Well the W in GWOT does mean "War", doesn't it? It's no more metaphorical than the Cold War was. We just don't have Kruschiev banging his shoe on the podium or nukes in Cuba. Otherwise, Doug's idiocy aside, the parallel is very close.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 3:01 pm | #

Fair enough. I'd say the cold war wasn't really a war either.
Ed Salden | 03.24.08 - 3:05 pm | #

But I'd also question if the other side in this "war" has the resources of the Soviet Union.
Ed Salden | 03.24.08 - 3:08 pm | #

Goodness Gracious Kermit, all I asked you to do was answer a simple question.

And Brent, I'm not saying that your actions need to be broadcast for my approval.

It was a simple commentary on the platitudinous puffery that your peer Kermit offers.

Life and death struggle against evil...

Wow! Sounds dramatic. How do we fight what clearly is an epic battle against the dark forces of evil...?

I Know! Let's cut taxes for the rich and increase the National Debt to nine and a half trillion dollars. That'll really show the evildoers...

Then we can use the money we don't pay in Payroll taxes and income taxes on $5000.00 worth of cigars and bottles of Scotch for our buddies because, nothing says shared sacrifice like public displays narcissism, hedonism and gluttony.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 3:11 pm | #

No they don't have the same resources as the old Ruskies did. They fight different than the commies did. They go after soft targets, no "real" army needed.
No billion dollar planes, just our own passenger jets and some box cutters.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 3:13 pm | #

Sequel, that's right.

Seems to me we're fighting houseflies with hand grenades.

It works, but not efficiently.
Ed Salden | 03.24.08 - 3:16 pm | #

Doug-
There are so many flawed assumptions in that last snarkfest, it would take me week to dismantle it. Oy!

narcissism is thy name Doug.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 3:16 pm | #

"No billion dollar planes, just our own passenger jets and some box cutters."

Exactly. And what do we do? We send in the US Army, heavily but not properly equipped, and not even to the country the men with the boxcutters came from.
Ed Salden | 03.24.08 - 3:23 pm | #

There are so many flawed assumptions in that last snarkfest, it would take me week to dismantle it. Oy!

Cool. I'm looking forward to next Monday.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 3:26 pm | #

Ed
fighting houseflies with hand grenades.
I don't think the military is often accused of being subtle when killin bad guys.

I have enjoyed seeing some of the predator drone footage of alQaeda meetings that were interrupted with hellfire.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 3:26 pm | #

Sequel, I agree, the military lacks subtilty, even though this is a situation where subtlty is required.

So why's the army in there?
Ed Salden | 03.24.08 - 3:34 pm | #

Doug-
For a start and an end I’ll give you this;
I Know! Let's cut taxes for the rich and increase the National Debt to nine and a half trillion dollars. That'll really show the evildoers...

cut taxes for the rich
Cut taxes for everyone who pays them.
We may argue this later.

increase the National
This has been known to happen under every president with the exception of a short window under Clinton where he slashed the military and called it the "peace dividend". Running a national debt is a big "so what".
We may argue this later.

That'll really show the evildoers
Are you just smarter than the rest of us or what? Cause the whole things seems irrelevant to the point. Apples and oranges there Skippy.
To illustrate your criticizism of foreign policy you make sarcastic comments about domestic policy.

You may now resume your wide ranging and rarely germane mini manifestos.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 3:49 pm | #

Oh and hey Kermit; you keep mentioning meds. Check this clip out. The part referring to medication is at about 1:30.

Tell me Kermit, is this guy in the trailer worthy of your deepest gratitude and undying respect even though he is likely someone who, if he actually still had the use of his legs, would likely march down the street chanting no more war?
Doug | 03.24.08 - 3:50 pm | #

Doug something like 90% of returning vets want to finish the job in the Iraq theatre. You dredge up as many of the 10% as you wish, but that won't change the percentages.

And yeah, we respect the ones without legs, and even those of that 10%. They've earned the right to bitch all they want.
That respect ends when they slander their country of their brothers still in a war zone.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 3:56 pm | #

That respect ends when they slander their country of their brothers still in a war zone.

Slander as arbitrarily defined by you right just as racism is arbitrarily defined when discussing Barack or Michelle Obama right?

Hey you're a contributor here aren't you sequel? Would you care to comment on your boss's choice of Humaniod Animal to describe American Indians?
Doug | 03.24.08 - 4:08 pm | #

I'm not sure racism is the correct term for Obama's preacher. I think anti American and bigot is closer.
As for Obama himself, I don't quite know where he stands, but he surrounds himself with a lunatic bigot, as well as other not so savory individuals.

I will not speak for the boss.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:18 pm | #

I'm not asking you to speak for the boss. I'm asking for your opinion on what the boss said.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 4:22 pm | #

That's right Al. And the budget to cut the defense came at the end of Bush Seniors administration and let's not forget, Dick Cheney was out promoting it.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 4:29 pm | #

Slander as arbitrarily defined by you

No words mean something.

slander
noun
1. words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another

verb
1. charge falsely or with malicious intent
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:34 pm | #

The defense budget went down by 6% over the life of his Presidency and actually started to increase by the end of his administration.
Feel free to provide a source for this, Al. Don't forget to show how it was Clinton and not the Republican Congress that made the initiative.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:39 pm | #

As for Obama himself, I don't quite know where he stands, but he surrounds himself with a lunatic bigot

You mean like John Hagee or Rod Parsley who's support was sought by John McCain?
Doug | 03.24.08 - 4:39 pm | #

Opinion of what exactly?

Re-phrase the question please.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:39 pm | #

First off, full disclosure:
I will not be voting for John McCain, not will I support him.

****

Campaigns go around looking for support from everyone. I think that who's support was sought by John McCain? might be stretching a bit. But then I don't honestly know. Everytime something like the obam preacher stuff comes up I hear:
Yeah well your guy is just as bad

Are those guys McCain's spiritual advisors for 20 years? Best buddies? What?

I don't read the frothing left blogs, what is the really bad shit those guys said to be equated with Godamm America?
Anything like Whitey created AIDS to kill black people?

Any waY to get that without the hyperventilating?
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:49 pm | #

Comeon Sequel, you know you're a "typical White Person".
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:51 pm | #

Would you care to comment on your boss's choice of Humaniod Animal to describe American Indians?

Since we've been having such friendly discussions about racism, is Riley's biological description of native Americans - humanoid animals - racist?

If no, why not.

If yes, do you agree with his description and further, is it acceptable to assume you and the other contributors are racists based on your association with Riley?
Doug | 03.24.08 - 4:52 pm | #

Is Doug the guy who typed the Words "Ni##*r Bitch"?
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:53 pm | #

Yup. He's the racist Pr***.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 4:59 pm | #

what is the really bad shit those guys said to be equated with Godamm America?

How about that pagans like me, homosexuals and the ACLU are responsible for 9-11? That America was damned because of people like me?

How about that the Catholic Church is a Great Whore?

And yes, McCain DID seek the endorsement. Hagee said it to the NYT and McCain didn't deny it.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 5:04 pm | #

humanoid animals?
I don't recall that one.
I remember "dirt worshiping heathens".

If I recall the argument, the discussion was about CULTURE, not race.

He used language I would not have used, but I don't believe the man is a racist.
If you wish to paint me with the same brush because we both write here, then so be it.

Honestly considering what you have written here, I will lose no sleep over your being morally indignant at my association with Tracy.
I find that having you try to ride to the moral high ground humorous.

***

You need to have more discussions that don't involve trying to make every counter to your argument hypocrisy.

Like Obama is not a bigot because:...

Not how dare you make a judgement because you are...

See when debating, attacking the opponent instead of the argument is a losing proposition.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 5:12 pm | #

Yup that's some pretty stupid shit.
I bet that a couple of things make this less of a story than the Obama preacher thing.

1 I bet they retracted and apologized for the stupid comments.
2 there is no close or long term relationship.
3 McCain ran away when the light was shined.
Sequel | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 5:17 pm | #

I don't recall that one.
I remember "dirt worshiping heathens".

It was in the same post and does one usually use the term humanoid animal to discuss culture? And yes, it was about race unless you can try to justify the line - "the humaniod animals that once roamed our continent"

If you wish to paint me with the same brush because we both write here, then so be it.>/i>

I don't but if I were to take the lead from your peers - the way that Obama has been painted via his preacher - then logically I would draw the same conclusion. Do you understand, in this context, the absurdity of the "racist" labels applied to Obama?

Honestly considering what you have written here, I will lose no sleep over your being morally indignant at my association with Tracy.

I'm not the least bit indignant at your association with Tracy. This is about guilt by association. If that's the standard by which you judge others then great, that's the standard by which you should be judged.

See when debating, attacking the opponent instead of the argument is a losing proposition.

You mean like your buddies Kermit and Jim suggesting that I should seek help? Get meds? Am a danger to those around me?

You mean like that sequel?
Doug | 03.24.08 - 5:41 pm | #

1 I bet they retracted and apologized for the stupid comments.

Ummm Nope. You lose that bet.

2 there is no close or long term relationship.

No. Just enough to fool the evangelical voters into thinking he actually values them for anything other than their vote and financial contributions.

3 McCain ran away when the light was shined.

If by ran away you mean stood on stage together then sure, McCain ran away...
Doug | 03.24.08 - 5:47 pm | #

Doug says "tax cuts for the rich." That`a just a mantra, not an arguement. The honest way to describe it would be to say "tax cuts for the people who pay taxes." And by the way , Doug, the Bush tax cuts greatly increased the number of people who don`t pay any taxes at all, something the libs keep forgetting to mention. Who would think? Let`s say Bush cut the federal gas tax instead of the income tax-who would benefit the most? The people who drive the most, obviously. And even most moonbats would, I believe, see nothing wrong with that. It`s just like the income tax- the people who pay the most get the biggest cut- like the people who drive the most would get the biggest cut. If libs were true to form, they`d be crying "tax cuts for the truckers, this cannot be!" But of course they wouldn`t. It` easier to hide behind a mantra than make a real arguement.
jimbob | 03.24.08 - 5:47 pm | #

I've always figured if the shoe fits wear it. If not, then put it back on the shelf.

Obama sat in the pews of that church for 20 yrs and wants me to believe he doesn't share the views of his spiritual mentor? A man he greatly admires. He sat with that congregation for 20 years, a congregation who cheered at the hateful lies put forth as gospel and took his children there to learn about what? Hate?
You buy it if you want but don't expect everyone to.
maxx | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 5:53 pm | #

"Clinton where he slashed the military "
Complete Bullshit. The defense budget went down by 6% over the life of his Presidency and actually started to increase by the end of his administration.
Al Gore | 03.24.08 - 4:22 pm | #

Doug and Al, do you realize that the defense budget isn't just limited to supporting the armed forces? It also includes funding for DoD projects. Numerous U.S. Army bases were closed in Europe during Clinton's tenure. When I took on a job with a defense contractor while Clinton was still in office, funding for our project was good. After September 11th, our project was terminated in '02 and funds were shifted back to funding the GWOT.
Ian | 03.24.08 - 6:17 pm | #

Isn't this pointless semantics? Isn't Kermit the guy who tried to argue the american civil war was not a real "civil war"?

Whatever you call Iraq, the invasion is a tragedy magnified by incompetence.
some made up name | 03.24.08 - 6:18 pm | #

And in 20 years Maxx out of a 30+ year career in the Church, Wright said a handful of things that are objectionable.

And as I have said in other threads, Wrights Church has 58 separate ministries and programs that serve it's 5000+ members.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 6:20 pm | #

Doug-
you keep speaking about Iraq vets, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are one or have some close connection to one.

I am an combat vet of Iraq and the larger war on terror, in fact 3 of the last 4 years overseas. So I get a bit of moral authority here.

Since I came home I've been called a warmongerer, an inhuman killing machine, racist, sexist and a lot of other worse stuff that isn't fit to print (even on Anti-Strib).

On the flip side, I've had to put up with celebrated Iraq war 'vets' like Jessie MacBeth and Scott Beauchamp. They have slandered not only themselves, but also me and the entire US military. I've put up with politicians that tell my family the war I'm fighting is already lost, and even worse ones who drool with glee to call US Marines guilty of a bloody massacre but refuse to apoligize when they are proven wrong in court.

Many have commented on the fact that this war's costs are being borne by so few in our country. Which is all the more reason that you should listen to us when so many Iraq vets tell you we need to finish this mission. Think about it. The very men and women who bear the brunt of the sacrifices in Iraq are the same ones who are saying that the cause is just and the need is great. Even if it means more sacrifices for us.

We aren't salesmen trying to get you to buy something Doug. We are more like the policemen who tells you that there is a killer in the town, but don't worry because we will stay up all night watching your house so that you can sleep peacefully. You may not believe the danger is real, but we will still do what we need to for your safety.
Dave Thul | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 6:26 pm | #

Isn't Kermit the guy who tried to argue the american civil war was not a real "civil war"?
Well yes, as a matter of fact. A civil war tends to be focused on gaining control of a nation. The War Between the States was an attempt at cessation, which is a different matter. Rather like Bangladesh. But you go ahead and split those hairs.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 6:45 pm | #

Doug
Goodness Gracious Kermit, all I asked you to do was answer a simple question.

When you can do the same you might deserve an answer.

And yes, McCain DID seek the endorsement. Hagee said it to the NYT and McCain didn't deny it.

Doug where is the link for this claim

So why's the army in there?

Because Ed it is not a police matter it is an act of terror that the police can not handle. Like an regular rubbery or murder.

Dave
Don’t expect much of a response from Doug he thinks people like you and me are fools that have been programmed to march to the tune of Der Bush.

What is going on Tuesday at the capitol?
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 6:55 pm | #

Tim
Vets for freedom tour will be in town tomorrow. Various things happening at the capitol and out at Ft Snelling
http://www.vetsforfreedom.com/ he...tour_stops.aspx
maxx | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 7:16 pm | #

You mean like your buddies Kermit and Jim suggesting that I should seek help? Get meds?
Sound advise. You should heed it, Doug.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 7:17 pm | #

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/0...in-minneapolis/
If anyone is interested, I'm going if I can get off work
maxx | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 7:18 pm | #

Drugs and counseling aren't the answer Kermit. Maybe an intervention but I doubt it.
maxx | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 7:20 pm | #

To think the American Civil war was not really a civil war is astounding. A civil war is when the civilian authority is not recognized, and is in fact, violently opposed. That is precisely what the south did -- they violently refused to live under the government of the United States and its civilian authority -- its courts, its executive, and its congress. That is primarily why Lincoln fought the war against the south. Luckily, he prevailed.
Bullshit spotter | 03.24.08 - 7:34 pm | #

Maxx im going to try and be there at 12:00 bringing a camera with me too
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 7:53 pm | #

But they were sovereign states. Less than 100 years previously they had rebelled against the British Crown.
It doesn't surprise me that the concept of the War Between the States not being an authentic "civil war" eludes authoritarians who revere government.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 7:55 pm | #

hay BS

The event of secession did not start out as a violent act in fact the Southern states completed and turned over to the North, any and all moneys or legal documents due to the North. That were executed before secession. This was done as a point of equality that the states believed they still had the right to remove the permission of the federal government that the constitution allowed. It was not tell the Southern states demanded with out compensation the turning over of all Federal property, Forts, Armory, and powder bunkers located in any southern states. Ft Sumter was the last Fort that held a Federal Garrison all others had been allowed to depart in honor with there arms and flags.
Un furled and un hindered. When the Federal Garrison at Ft Sumter refused to lower its colors and remove them from southern soil they acted in defense of there rights as they saw them. On the date of secession there were still several thousand officers and solders in the federal military they were allowed to leave for home with out charge of treason. It was not a civil war but a war over states rights (ie: the south’s right to have and hold slaves), and there believed right to dissolve the federation created by the constitution and the birth of the nation.

Here is a reprint of the ==
South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Secession

"South Carolina Declaration of Causes of Secession December 24,1860

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 2d day of April, A.D. 1852, declared that frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States of America by the Federal Government, and it's encroachment upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in their withdrawal from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other Slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time these encroachments have continued to increase, and the forbearance ceases to be a virtue. And now the State of South Carolina having resumed her separate and equal place among nations, deems it due herself, to the remaining United States of America, and to the nations of the world, that she should declare the immediate causes that lead to this act�. We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been destructive of them by the action of the nonslaveholding States. Those States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of Slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies whose avowed object is to disturb the peace of eloin the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain have been incited by emissaries, books, and pictures to servile insurrection. For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of all the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to Slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that �Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,� and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the subversion of the Constitution has been aided, in some of the States, by elevating to citizenship persons who, by the supreme law if the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its peace and safety. On the 4th of March next this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the Judicial Tribunal shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against Slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States. The guarantees of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The Slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy. Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation; and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that the public opinion of the North has invested a great political error with the sanctions of a more erroneous religious belief. We, therefore, the people of South Carolina, by our delegates in convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent state, with the full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do. "
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 8:27 pm | #

Doug where is the link for this claim

http:// www.editorandpublisher.co...t_id=1003728364

When you can do the same you might deserve an answer.

I answer every question thrown at me at this place. What I don't do, what I won't do is address or respond to attempts at building strawmen or answering strawmen arguments.

Dave
Don’t expect much of a response from Doug he thinks people like you and me are fools

Dave didn't ask me a question that needs a response. But if you'd like a response Tim, fine.

I've never called Dave an inhuman killing machine, racist or a sexist. I would never defend anyone that did call Dave any of those things.

The flipside to Jessie MacBeth is Barrett H. Moore who lied about his military service to secure Billion dollar contracts in Iraq. Billion dollar private security contracts aren't awarded unless there's a multi-billion dollar deficit funded/deferred tax war to "justify" it. And let's not forget that George W. Bush produced campaign literature for a run at Congress which stated that he served in the Air Force and the Texas Air National Guard.

It's bad to lie to attempt to damage the military. It's worse in my opinion to lie to do it for profit and political gain.

You're right Dave, I do have connections to vets and I have serious doubts that the support for the war in Iraq is weighted 90% / 10% like some have suggested. That simply is not the case among the people I know. If anything it is roughly evenly split. The difference is the people that don't support continued involvement are very select about who they share their views with but they are becoming more vocal.
Doug | 03.24.08 - 8:38 pm | #

Doug

Now I know you have gone off the bend you are comparing this
Full story of both articles are linked in title

Man who lied about actions in Iraq admits faking forms

By David Bowermaster
Seattle Times staff reporter
Jesse MacBeth stoked opposition to the Iraq war in 2006 when he spoke out about atrocities he committed as a U.S. Army Ranger serving as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
MacBeth, 23, of Tacoma, claimed to have killed more than 200 people, many at close range, some as they prayed in a mosque. He spoke at an anti-war rally in Tacoma and appeared in a 20-minute anti-war video that circulated widely on the Internet.
Trouble is, none of MacBeth's claims was true. He made it through only six weeks of Army basic training, was never a Ranger and never set foot in Iraq.

To this

Contractor Made Millions Claiming Army Stripes

Syndicated from Michigan Messenger
In December 2003, the founders of Triple Canopy, a private security firm in Baghdad, caught their first big break, signing a contract with the Coalition Provisional Authority governing Iraq. Within four months, Triple Canopy had signed six contracts worth more than $28 million to guard U.S. facilities throughout Iraq.
For Triple Canopy chief executive officer Barrett H. Moore and the military veterans who founded the company, these agreements launched the company on the path to become what it is today: one of the leading private military contractors, sharing a $1 billion contract with Blackwater USA and DynCorps to guard U.S. personnel in the Middle East.
Moore, 43, a Chicago businessman, now presents himself as a former U.S. Army Intelligence officer and business “visionary” who revolutionized the private security market but an Army spokesman said Moore was never an officer and never had intelligence training.

So you have one lying about being an officer when he was really an NCO and had not been commissioned. And the other lying about being an Army Ranger and committing war crimes in Iraq and other atrocities. Hum witch one is using there story for a political purpose and witch one is just a Jerk.

As for the President’s military carrier are you going to drag out Dan Rather’s bogus documents again. The ones he claims were typed in the 60’s with a computer font?

Doug if vets do not support the war why is the reenlistment totals still skyrocketing and at a level not seen in the military for a long time. You don’t reenlist to return to a war you do not support or agree with.

one thing Doug I agree using military exploits for monetary gain that you do not deserve is just wrong. But to try and compare the two as being equal is beyond belife
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 11:34 pm | #

broken links sorry here is the first story

http:// seattletimes.nwsource.com...ranger08m0.html

here is the seconded story

http://www.washingtonindependent...contractor- made
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.24.08 - 11:36 pm | #

So you have one lying about being an officer when he was really an NCO and had not been commissioned.

Not quite Tim. Moore claimed to be a former Intelligence officer.

He was never an officer nor did he have any intelligence training and according to the link you yourself provided, he never served in any branch of the armed services.

One used lies to land a billion dollar taxpayer funded no-bid contract under false pretenses. The other is a fraud who's claims were viewed on youtube. Which has done more damage?

Doug if vets do not support the war why is the reenlistment totals still skyrocketing and at a level not seen in the military for a long time.

Skyrocketing? The only things skyrocketing are the budgets for re-enlistment bonuses, the number of new recruits with criminal backgrounds and the budgets for Military service advertising. Don't forget about the record number of high school dropouts and 40+ year old personnel now serving.
Doug | 03.25.08 - 12:13 am | #

Doug

so your saying the only reason they are reenlisting is for the bonuses only ya right.

when you have no draft and an all Volunteer force and need people you do allow people with GED's in and as for criminal recorders how often back in the days did the person standing in front of a judge get told enlist or go to jail. Non violent offenders are being allowed in and not in great numbers. As for the advertising budget ask congress about that they control the purse strings.

Also the only people over 40 that I know of that are going in are prior service that are going in to the guard because the guard allows you to exceed the cut off age by how ever many years you had in service before. Had I not been an insulin dependent diabetic I would be in the guard right now myself

By the way whats wrong with being over 40 anyways you think were all in wheelchairs or something?

according to the link I gave you he was honorably discharged from the reserves as an NCO havening never been commissioned. Yes the reserves is not a branch of the military it is still registered as a service branch.

"The other is a fraud who's claims were viewed on youtube. Which has done more damage?"

not only you tube it was circulated all over with in the anti war crowed and made it in to several reports on MSM.

Prove this

"
One used lies to land a billion dollar taxpayer funded no-bid contract under false pretenses"
where are the documents to back up that statement.

and sorry but it is no contest the guy that sat in front of the camera spreading slander, and libel about the actions of the US Military caused the grater harm and endangered more people hands down.

and Doug just a hint we had far more dangerous criminals that were drafted in the the military then we have in now.
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 12:49 am | #

so your saying the only reason they are reenlisting is for the bonuses only ya right.

No Tim. I'm not saying the ONLY reason they are re-enlisting is for the bonus. Where in Gods name did you read that I said "only reason"?

when you have no draft and an all Volunteer force and need people you do allow people with GED's in

Why?

as for criminal recorders how often back in the days did the person standing in front of a judge get told enlist or go to jail.

So we've got kids that can't make it through high school and repeat offenders entering military service in record numbers... No comment.

prove this

Tim, Tim, Tim... Read the articles before you link them.

According to U.S. Army record keepers, Moore never completed his Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program in college and was discharged from an inactive branch of the Reserves in 1994 without ever having gone through basic training. Contrary to the claims on Sovereign Deed’s Web site, Moore never served as an Army intelligence officer, or in any other branch of the country’s armed forces.

where are the documents to back up that statement.

What documents?
Doug | 03.25.08 - 8:16 am | #

Doug

It lost the formatting that is what it should have read
Prove this
“One used lies to land a billion dollar taxpayer funded no-bid contract under false pretenses"
where are the documents to back up that statement.

according to the link I gave you he was honorably discharged from the reserves as an NCO havening never was commissioned. Yes the reserves is not a branch of the military it is still registered as a service branch.

Please note I did read it

According to U.S. Army record keepers, Moore never completed his Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program in college and was discharged from an inactive branch of the Reserves in 1994 without ever having gone through basic training.

O’Donnell pointed out that service personnel are retired at their highest rank, and Moore was discharged from the Reserves as a grade of sergeant (E5), meaning he was never an officer.

By the way with out the person’s written permission you can not go digging in to military recorders like that even with a freedom of information request. That is why we are still waiting for Mr. (I personal saw people cut off ears) Kerry to allow the access he said was coming for over six years now.

Care to tell us where you come up with this line
repeat offenders entering military service in record numbers

The policy of the military to allow any one with a record in is it is only a misdemeanor offence non violent, and their is only a single offence.

By the way Doug the way your are saying about offenders and people with GED’s why not ?

Last time I checked military service gives every one race, creed, color, and religious back ground a hell of a lot of experiences, and training with options a lot of them might never have a chance for on the street. You are taught discipline, self respect, respect to others, leadership, you are taught a skill that in many cases translates to the civilian world very easily.

I still think there should be a mandatory 2 year requirement after finishing high school that every citizen enter some form of service to the nation be it military or other civil service. Might help alleviate some of the self disciple problems a lot of kids have now days.
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 12:02 pm | #

More revisionist history about the civil war from those who have an ideological and political agenda. Who want to know why the south seceded -- the preservation of slavery was the primary factor.

Three Confederate documentary sources PROVE this: (1) the secession documents of the southern states setting forth their reasons for leaving the Union and forming the Confederacy; (2) the famous speech of Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephens delivered just after the formal creation of the Confederacy, identifying its philosophical foundations; and (3) the Confederacy's own constitution. All three Confederate sources unequivocally prove that the South's desire to sustain slavery was a significant reason for the formation of the Confederacy.
Bullshit spotter | 03.25.08 - 12:08 pm | #

More revisionist history about the civil war from those who have an ideological and political agenda.
Was their intent to take over Washington DC and rewrite the US Constitution?
Kermit | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 1:07 pm | #

Prove this
“One used lies to land a billion dollar taxpayer funded no-bid contract under false pretenses"
where are the documents to back up that statement.

Tim, He lied about his credentials. His credentials were used to sell his capabilities. The company he worked for shared a billion dollar contract with Blackwater and DynCorps. In addition, they signed six contracts worth 28 million to guard facilities throughout Iraq.

What documents are you asking for? The military contract that was signed or the document that proves he was a fraud?

Further, what difference does it make? The guys a phony and a convicted criminal who served time in prison for criminal fraudulent activity? What more do you need?

And Tim, for Gods sake, John Kerry never, EVER said he personally saw people cut off ears. You're conflating two different things - his testimony in front of Congress and an interview on Meet the Press.

This is the kind of irresponsible and erroneous crap that drives me nuts with you and your buddies. Your facts are demonstrably in error and you accuse me of being arrogant and self-righteous when I point your errors out to you.

Care to tell us where you come up with this line

Sure. You stated,

how often back in the days did the person standing in front of a judge get told enlist or go to jail.

Come on Tim. If you want to play anecdotal story time, I'll play along. Let's say a judge were to do what you suggest. Do you think a judge would do something like this for a first time minor offense or is it logical to conclude that a judge would say this to a kid that keeps screwing up?

And it's interesting... You and I agree on one thing. Mandatory service to the country in the military or some civil capacity after high school.

Maybe there is hope for you yet.
Doug | 03.25.08 - 3:51 pm | #

Doug

If you think about it hard we have had other things we agree with each other on.

Tim, He lied about his credentials. His credentials were used to sell his capabilities

Doug that is not proof and the signed contract is no more proof then my signing with a company to fix my roof. If you cannot supply what they are contracting you for you will not get or hold a military contract for very long

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

Your right Doug I miss spoke about him lying in front of congress just like Sen, Hillary is using made up experiences to run for office.

The Military has allowed people with a single offence of a misdemeanor level form around 1938 tell just a short time ago if I remember the date right it was in Oct of 1999 when they stopped excepting any one with any type of convection. The US Military is not the French Foreign Legion that will take any one in to its service.

Reenlistment bonus have been used by the military to retain highly trained, highly skilled people I received one when I reenlisted myself it was over $10,000.00 for a 3 year re-up. when you have high levels of people reenlisting the amount of money you pay up will also increase so that was a point going no where from the start My point I made about you saying it was the only reason was your wording about bonuses skyrocketing said to me you thought they were only doing it for the money.

As for your winter solder want to be. He should be put in front of a military Courts Martial and convicted for his slander, Libel and disparaging remarks that have endangered military personnel in the Iraq Theater. But as he was removed from service we have to rely on the civilian courts to handle him.
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 6:15 pm | #

"We aren't salesmen trying to get you to buy something Doug. We are more like the policemen who tells you that there is a killer in the town, but don't worry because we will stay up all night watching your house so that you can sleep peacefully." Really? Osama is in town? Is he riding around with Elvis? Hell, the most powerful military on earth couldn't find him and he was here all the time.

If you guys want to live your lives in fear, armed to the teeth against the muslim and brown hordes, be my guest. The level of fear mongering you guys are always supporting has done at least as much damage to this country, our economy and our sense of well being as any terrorist has.

What scares you is that the country is starting to shine a light under that rock you all live under.
Al Gore | 03.25.08 - 6:28 pm | #

Armed to the teeth?
You have no idea!
Muwahahahaha!
Boo!
maxx | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:36 pm | #

If you cannot supply what they are contracting you for you will not get or hold a military contract for very long

Ummm Tim? You're not paying attention to the contractor abuses in Iraq are you?

By the way, you DO know which candidate is advocating your idea for mandatory service right?
Doug | 03.25.08 - 7:36 pm | #

Maxx, when you come out from under that rock make sure you are packing. Al's going to be coming at you at a rate of 100 cliches per minute.
I honestly wonder if this doufus has ever had an original thought.

Well, no. Not really.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:48 pm | #

ya the one that so far can't tell the truth if it was given to them
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:50 pm | #

I gots a sooper sekret back way out that I can use to sneak up on the little varmints and double tap 'em before they can blink.
Shit! I got at least two more months before I can even go shooting tho I figure I can plunk the .22 as soon as I can lift any weight.
maxx | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 8:39 pm | #

Well, see now, there's yours problem. You think logically. Can't have that in this day and age.

Have to care more about trees and caribou and the Earth's fever and hurting other people's feelings and taking away their ability to fend and defend themselves.

/sarcasm

Great blog. Just found it, but have enjoyed what I've read so far. Keep up the great work.
Dan O | Homepage | 03.26.08 - 9:43 am | #

Dam Kermie, it sure looks like its a war there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23788065/
Al Gore | 03.26.08 - 10:30 am | #

You are incapable of context, Al. You have a very two-dimensional method of analysis, if you even bother to analyze. I suspect you do not.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.26.08 - 10:59 am | #

Mookie and his band of mutts are about to get their asses kicked! The Iraqi Army, with our troops helping will be shutting his ass down. It's got to be.
The local elections this fall should be very interesting. I'll bet the Iraqis vote in greater numbers than the US.
pig/dog | 03.26.08 - 11:24 am | #

Oh and welcome to the party, Dan O.
pig/dog | 03.26.08 - 11:31 am | #

"Mookie and his band of mutts are about to get their asses kicked!" And another one will replace him. You are naive to think that killing him will be do anything but make him a martyr.
Al Gore | 03.26.08 - 5:21 pm | #

what good is being a mater your dead and turning into worm food Meet hellfire live to cloud of dust in less then .06 sec
tim-The Dyslexic Blogger | Homepage | 03.26.08 - 8:44 pm | #

Kermie -- are you still sure its not a war? The most secure piece of real estate on the planet is sure getting hammered. Its probably the Iraqis wanting to get in and shop at the PX, eh?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/ 0,2...,342111,00.html
Al Gore | 03.27.08 - 8:08 am | #

Yes, since all five of you have obvious reading comprehension issues let me repeat it:
Iraq is a theater in a larger war
Try to keep up.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 8:42 am | #

"Iraq is a theater in a larger war" Aside from Afghanistan, where exactly is the rest of this war being fought?
Al Gore | 03.27.08 - 11:41 am | #

Wow Kermie, the "skirmish" is sure not going well. How's the rest of the war going?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23788065/
Al Gore | 03.27.08 - 8:18 pm | #

where exactly is the rest of this war being fought?
The extent to which you are clueless is truly astounding.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 8:34 pm | #

"The extent to which you are clueless is truly astounding." I never ask a question I dont know the answer to. But since its your post, I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
Al Gore | 03.27.08 - 9:34 pm | #

I never ask a question I dont know the answer to.
Well there you go. Self-limiting knowledge must be comforting.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 9:46 pm | #

101 comments. Whoo Hoo -- thanks for the free dinner Kermie.
Al Gore | 03.28.08 - 8:01 am | #

101 comments. Whoo Hoo -- thanks for the free dinner Kermie.

Try not to choke while "gobbling" on your "meal", Al.
Ron Jeremy | 03.28.08 - 8:04 am | #

Your welcome. I get a fine cigar and some twelve year old single malt, so everyone wins.
Kermit | Homepage | 03.28.08 - 9:45 am | #

Excellent. Enjoy it in good health!!
Al Gore | 03.28.08 - 12:42 pm | #

Sequel. I clearly am not an advocate of a 60 percent rate. I'm stating that the lafer effect of increased revenues due to a decrease in taxes ceases to occur at marginal rates below that point. please read my comments before you throw this ideology crap around. I don't care about it. I do care about facts and the facts do not support a laffer effect at our mrginal rates (gibson's statement is false). the treasury concluded that the decrease in cap gains taxes reduced revenues after accounting for other effects.

thae fact that there is no laffer effect does not negate other positive outcomes of lower taxes, but I am not an advocate of approaching the revenue side of the equation apart from the expense side. deficits are economically either service cuts or tax increases in the future. I do not support that approach. We need to reduce spending if we are going to decrease taxes. I would think and hope you guyss would agree but I really don't see your arguments as being engaged in that in any meaninful way.

bubba. there is clearly an impact on the value of capital assets. but that's a separate issue from the amount of revenue raised by reducing the taxes on gains in those assets.
Shabado | 04.17.08 - 7:22 pm | #

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