Without "liberal ideology" the freedom and liberty (same thing right?) that you try to wrap your ideology in would only extend to white male property owners.
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 9:40 am | #

Bullshit.
Kermit | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 9:43 am | #

Ending slavery, women getting the right to vote, civil right movement. All came from liberal thought.

BS is not an argument Kermit, but typical for you.
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 9:46 am | #

You're right. It seems the concept of "morphed" has eluded you.

How do you go from Women's sufferage and civil rights to defending suicide bombers?
Kermit | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 9:52 am | #

So you know more about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than some guy who actually lived there? That's pretty great, the wisdom that simply taking the proscribed right-wing position on an issue can give you.

According to you, Manichean thinking is a philosophical strength. Seeing a complex issue as, ummmmm, complex is "evil". That's pretty funny. You're the funniest guy on the web, Kermit.
kevin h. | 11.11.07 - 9:52 am | #

Kermit, I haven't defended any suicide bombers. How does the fact that there are terrorists in the world prove liberal ideology is "evil"?

So-called conservative ideology wanted to keep women from voting, keep Jim Crow laws in place, and in an unprecedented move for the U.S. start a war of aggression against a country that didn't attack us causing untold death and destruction. Who's evil?

Kermit, you're kind of a joke.
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 9:58 am | #

Ending slavery, women getting the right to vote, civil right movement. All came from liberal thought.

You want to also mention that each of those movements had a strong religious component. I know that skip that in schools these days, but Reverend Martin Luther King had the strong support of his Methodist church.
Tracy | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 10:13 am | #

Agreed. The pope also spoke out against the invasion of Iraq.
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 10:18 am | #

And Robert Byrd led the Dems in fighting the Civil Rights Act in the 60's.
Who led the fight against slavery back in the day? It wasn't Dems. Lincoln was a Republican and the movements against slavery were supported by northern people of religious belief.
Liberalism has morphed. John Kennedy was a liberal but today his stand would be considered too far right to get the support of Move-on or the Soros crowd.
Stalin on the other hand would be lunching with George and most likely be a guest poster at Kos.
maxx | 11.11.07 - 10:30 am | #

Regardless of party affiliation back at the time, and these things do shift around, it was a "liberal" idea that slavery was wrong, that women should have the right to vote, etc.

It's worth noting that many southern democrats who were against the civil rights act left the party and became republicans and that began the GOPs general majority in the south.
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 10:38 am | #

It was an old fashioned liberal idea.
Liberalism today is much different. Liberalism today is basically socialism. Take from those who produce and give to those who won't.
Moral equivilancy is the creed of the modern liberal. Skivvies on the head and nude pyramids are the same as rape rooms and plastic shredders.
Cold temps and loud music the equal of beheadings and murdering children in front of their parents.
Teddy Kennedy said that Saddam's prisons hadn't changed much, except they were now being run by our troops.
Biden made much the same statement.
There's the leaders of modern liberalism.
maxx | 11.11.07 - 10:54 am | #

Inducing hypothermia and using waterboarding is torture. Which is against US law and something we prosecuted Japanese and Germans for war crimes for after WWII.

Is minimizing and being in denial about torture a "conservative ideology".

What about rendition, picking people up off the street, putting a hood over their head, throwing them in a whole and torturing them. No charges, no court, and if you've got the wrong guy just drop him back on a street somewhere in another country. The US now does this. Conservative ideology?

Today, I would say that wanting affordable health care for all Americans is a good example of liberal ideology. You may call it socialism, but the market has clearly failed us when it comes to health care-we pay far more but get less than other western countries.
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 11:01 am | #

Kermit, you're kind of a joke.
So you think throwing 40 million babies in the garbage and condoning terrorism is acceptable. I was referring to the Liberal pastor, not you. If you think they are okie dokey too, so be it. Clarity is a good thing.

Hey Kev, you're semi-funny too.
Kermit | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 11:14 am | #

Kermit, liberals don't condone terrorism. As a matter of fact, if you look in the recent past, it was republicans like Reagan who were happy to give arms to terrorists even when it was made illegal by a democratic congress.

Abortion is legal and I agree that it should be. Saying "babies" seems inflammatory (your usual mo). I am in favor of limiting abortion to only first or early second trimester.

Don't you see how it is utterly pointless to go prancing around saying "liberal ideology is evil!" Actions are evil, and if you're going to start labelling things evil, you might want to look at torture policy.
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 11:22 am | #

Hay SMUG

Your vented Liberal Congress can't even decide what is Torture. What makes you the expert.


Expert
1.) x is a metamathematical unknown

2.) spurt is just a water drip under lots of pressure

thus Expert = an unknown drip under pressure
tim | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 11:29 am | #

Tim, you better check you facts. Torture is clearly defined in the USC. It's the radicals among your party who have sought a tortured definition of torture.

Bottom line-Bush-Cheney-Rummy authorized torture techniques that in the past we have prosecuted others for as war crimes. Facts are facts.

BTW, who "vented" congress? Little early to be drinking isn't it?
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 11:33 am | #

If you look in the more recent past it was Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright who were completely ineffectual against al Qaeda and even refused to accept the Sudan's offer to turn Osama bi Laden over to us because there was "no compelling legal grounds" for apprehending an asshole who had already murdered hundreds of Americans.
Liberal ideology is not just evil, it's cancerous and ugly.
Kermit | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 11:38 am | #

That's not true Kermit and you know it. Richard Clarke gave serious warnings to incomming Bushies about Bin Laden and he was ignored. They were cutting the counter terrorism budget before 9/11. Bush and Condi largely ignored the briefing "Bin Laden determined to strike within US".

Simple question Kermit: Do you support the Bush administration policy to use waterboarding in interrogations?
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 11:43 am | #

Bush and Terrorism = 8 months
Clinton and terrorism = 8 years
You can't change history, but you can skew facts. Hmm. Would that be morally relative?
Kermit | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 12:03 pm | #

I think it might be time to find a new church kermit
Schmo | 11.11.07 - 2:00 pm | #

SMUN,
Please define torture. If you mention sources, you should also provide quotes, and links.
Badda | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 2:28 pm | #

Yeah, I've heard that before, but I'm a stubborn SOB.
Kermit | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 2:49 pm | #

Kermit
You can't unstick someone stuck on stupid. Look at AG and smuf.
Find a new church. You shouldn't have to avoid a Sunday gathering because the Pastor is a dink.
maxx | 11.11.07 - 3:22 pm | #

Badda,

Torture is already clearly defined in the law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscod...40----000- .html
some made up name | 11.11.07 - 4:02 pm | #

Smun, why limit abortion if it's not a child?
Larry | 11.11.07 - 4:22 pm | #

Maxx, running away has never been my style (that should be obvious). The reason why I see Liberalism as evil is it's subversive nature.

The only thing Evil needs to succeed is for good men to say nothing.
Kermit | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 4:37 pm | #

Surely, SMUN, that applies to the Navy, right?
Badda | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 5:43 pm | #

"Liberalism today is much different." Ronald Reagen is probably spinning in his grave over what goes for Conservatism today. Both movements have changed over time, and in my opinion, neither for the better.
Al Gore | 11.11.07 - 6:07 pm | #

That Thursday morning offer is still open, Kermit...
Chief | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:21 am | #

Wow, something Al posted that I agree with!

We do need to get back to Reagan's ideas of a smaller government and chuck that Compassionate Conservative shit overboard.

Reagan wanted to close the Department of Education and Energy. We should dismantle the department of Agriculture too. We should stop funding the NEA and PBS.

A smaller government with lower taxes would be a truly great accomplishment!
Tracy | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:06 am | #

As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.


SMUN I have included the definitions you listed so you can have it right in front of you when you try and wiggle around it again you are trying to say that water boarding is right here in the definitions Where?

1). Water boarding does not inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering.
2). Water boarding does not have any mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
3). Water boarding does not have the threat of imminent death;

If you deal with your liberal feelings that it just feels bad your right but it is not in the code of law of this nation. Get you facts right before linking definitions that don’t cover your facts.

How would you stop a terrorist attack if you had the guy in front of you right now what would you do?

You keep saying we all are out to torture every one we catch, and that we are braking the Geneva convention by holding prisoners at gitmo. Gitmo is a prisoner camp with dangerous people in it they are reported to the red cross when we find out who they really are and are feed allowed to practice there religion and are questioned for intelligence information . The people at gitmo are not POW’s they do not fall under the rules of war but are treated as such and should be held tell the war is over. Oh wait that’s right you don’t consider this a war I forgot that little bit of information. What act of terror could they commit tha might get through to you? When will enough be enough?
tim | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 5:41 pm | #

Kermit -- I read somewhere in the blogsphere that you too were once a liberal. There was speculation that you were beat up by a bunch of Young Republicans disguised as hippies wearing tie dye who threatened you with a life of compassionate caring if you did not convert to the dark side.

We would gladly welcome you back to the bright side. We know that being a liberal is intellectually exhausting -- we look at all sides of an issue, usually make decisions after much deliberation and getting input from many, and generally care about both those immediately around us and those around the world. We know its easier to have a narrow mind, see everything in black and white and generally disregard anyone and anything that doesn't let you keep everything for yourself.

Come back over brother. You can even keep your guns, registered, of course.

Peace and Love
Al Gore | 11.12.07 - 9:19 pm | #

we look at all sides of an issue,

How come you get the same amswer each time, more taxes? The most narrow minded people I hacve ever met live in San Francisco. They are true believers.

The idea that a liberal could find an answer that didn't involve a government program and a tax increase is laughable.
Tracy | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:35 pm | #

I don't own a gun. And going back to being a liberal would be pretty tough since I quit smoking dope.

But please, tell me all about that "we look at all sides of an issue" deal. you're so gosh darn unique! What with that big not narrow mind and all.

The intellectual exhaustion is pretty obvious, Al. The deep lack of comprehension must come naturally though.
Kermit | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:44 pm | #