Wow, unbelievable. This women is certifiable. I think the death of her son may have pushed her over the edge.
TR, remember, I said you were being too soft on her in your earlier post. Glad you saw the light.
It's a real shame that the scumbag fascsists have sunk to the depths of using a grieving mother as a propaganda whore, but that's the way it is. I have no sympathy for her, because she is dishonoring the memory of her son, who died for his country, America, not some crazy moonbat conspiracy.
Our resident liberal Gunner is being conspicuously silent on this, wonder why.
Well, if you're referring to me, I've been presented with such a target rich environment, it's hard to know where to start. Then there's the time element; I don't have all day to hold remedial education classes for you folks...I've got work to do! Then I read the comments you post, and I just shake my head at the total lack of respect you exhibit to anyone that happens to disagree with your point of view ("full fledged Kool-Aid drinking, Tin foil hat wearing raving lunatic"..."scumbag fascsists"..."propaganda whore", etc.). I realize that no matter what I say, your minds are already made up, and I might as well be fartin' in the wind for all the good I'll do, but here goes.
After reading TR's initial post, there are only two things I think Ms. Sheehan got wrong. The Iraq war has nothing to do with Israel, and Dubya was influenced by PNAC "before" not "after" 9/11.
The Iraq war has nothing to do with Israel, it has nothing to do with WMD, and it has nothing to do with 9/11 or the "War on Terror". It has everything to do with Dubya becoming a two-term president.
In 1991 Dubya saw first hand what happens when you finish a war early and under budget. He saw his dad's approval ratings plummet from 92% in the spring of '91 to less than 40% a year later where he ultimately lost the presidency to Clinton.
Dubya may not be the brightest bulb in the pack, but he ain't stupid. If he became president he was going to get himself a war, and he was going to keep the ball in the air as long as possible. He had Iraq in his sights as far back as 1999 ( http://www.russbaker.com/Guerril...%20-%
20Bush.htm ), brought it up in his first cabiniet meeting ( http://search.barnesandnoble.com...743255461&
itm=1 ), and was convinced 9/11 had something to do with Iraq ( http://search.barnesandnoble.com...743260457&
itm=2 ).
There also has to be a reason that nobody was paying any attention to Richard Clarke during the first 8 months of 2001. Personally, I think Dubya wanted something to happen that would give him the excuse he needed to go to "General Quarters" and kick some Iraqi butt. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he wanted 9/11 to happen, but if another embassy got blown up, or maybe another US Naval vessel, that would've been OK. I also think that could explain the stupid look on his face during the 7 minutes he continued to read "My Pet Goat" after Andy Card told him a second plane had crashed into the World Trade Center. It wasn't so much a "What do I do now?" look, but more of a "Holy Crap, what have I done!" look.
Back in 1991, Bush Sr. didn't go into Baghdad because he knew he'd be opening a can of worms. The thing is, a can of worms is exactly what Dubya wanted.
OK, there you are. Right now I have other things that require my attention. Enjoy!
I'll say one thing for you Gunny, your consistent, consistently WRONG.
You set em up with your own tortured interpreation and then proceed to knock em down so they adhere to your ultimate conclusions. An artist working in straw extraordinaire.
Bush was obviously looking at Iraq from the very start but for obvious reasons you fail to consider. Scores of UN violations, WMD, Terrorist support just to name a few. Saddam was by most thought to be the most destablizing force in the Middle East.
But like Cindy Sheehan your mind is so cluttered with Bush hatred that the possibility of clear and rational analysis of the situation is less than nil.
Actually, I don't hate the man. That would be un-Christian of me. I do, however, hate what he's done, and continues to do, to this country and its people. Am I biased against Bush? Most certainly, but then, he taught me to be. It's called a conditioned response. I think Dubya said it best when he said, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on...shame on...you won't be fooled again."
You, on the other hand, have a bias towards Bush. Like him, you don't think he's made any mistakes. To you, and those like you, Bush walks on water and can do no wrong. To use your phraseology, "Your mind is so cluttered with Bush adoration that the possibility of clear and rational analysis of the situation is less than nil."
I happen to believe that when he started this pre-emptive and unnecessary war on Iraq, he did so for his own political gain, and to profit his political base. Entities like Halliburton, KBR, The Carlyle Group, you know, the "haves and have mores".
The reasons you mention, UN violations, WMD, Terrorist support are real, and they provided Dubya with some good cover, but when you add them up they're hardly reasons for war. Sanctions, real sanctions with teeth perhaps, but not war.
The UN violations are certainly worthy of sanctions...maybe even a LGB here or there for good measure.
Of course we thought he had WMD...we sold him much of it, but even if he still had it, which it turns out he didn't, he had no way to deliver it.
Terrorist support? Paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers a $2500.00 remittance was hardly setting the world on fire.
Saddam was a real "bad actor", as they say. He did some despicable things, and will undoubtedly burn in hell. And you're right; Saddam was indeed the most destabilizing force in the Middle East, but that was 15 years ago!
We had him in a bottle. He couldn't leave his country! And when he would do something really stupid, we'd throw a LGB at one target or another to get his attention.
Tortured interpretation? Hardly. I read, listen, observe and evaluate information with a healthy dose of skepticism. Some sources are more credible than others, while some are not credible at all. That I come to different conclusions than you is understandable, given our conflicting biases.
It’s funny you know, when anyone points out America undying support of Israel or Israel role in the middle east they are label Anti-Semitic.
There are only two reason to go to war in Iraq:
1) Steal the oil
2) Make the middle east safer for Israel to steal more land.
Neither reason are worth one American life, I guess that makes me a Anti-Semitic too…
Hmmmm, the move out of Gaza then is kinda contary to that thesis.
Nice unwarranted extrapolation to turn her remarks into your anti-Semitism smear against her.
Though I presume when one doesn't have anything substantial, one uses what they can/have.
If one is not concerned in the least with credibility/ethics, that is.
Hello Anonymous,
It's been my experience that smears, inuendo and name-calling are the norm in this echo chamber.
If you're looking for intelligent discourse, an exchange of ideas or even a debate, keep surfing; it's not to be found here.
"Hmmmm, the move out of Gaza then is kinda contary to that thesis."
The wall on the westbank will make up for any lose of land in Gaza. If Israel really wanted peace they withdraw to the 1948 border.
But in the long run it will not matter how much land Israel steal. Arabs have more babies then they do and in the end, numbers count.
"1) Steal the oil
2) Make the middle east safer for Israel to steal more land."
1.) you must not have to buy your own gas.
2.) Israel leaving Gaza ... hhhmmmmmmm ... giving land away not taking more?
Humm I like the discussion here Im just gettin my feat under me and Im probable gonna get flamed for this message but Ive gotta ask
Dear Mr President.
Im sure your busy but I must point out from your latest news that while you are dining on
"guests dined on chilled asparagus soup and lemon creme; pan-roasted halibut, ginger-carrot butter, basmati rice with pistachio nuts and currants and herbed summer vegetables; and salad of Bibb lettuces and citrus vinaigrette."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/
white...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
There are people in this country starving and living out of boxes. Let them eat cake!
You say social security is going down the tubes... how much is the war in iraq costing us a day? Your the president Im sure you know. If we were not in this unjust war and put all that money in social security would it be solvent? I would really like to know the numbers on that.
I've got to tell you Im excited about you sayin all options on the table for iran too... Just what we need another war. When will the killing stop?
You come across as extremely heartless when you drive by a woman whos son died for your views so you can go to a bbq and raise a couple mill for the republican party.
Mr President what are you thinking?
Regards
Earl Earl Earl......you've been at the Kool-Aid punch bowl much too long.
Jenki, Jenki, Jenki...is that all you've got?
Social Security is not where the dollars would go ... Congress would spend it on pet projects and pork like they did with the highway bill ...
Where are the Jews supposed to live after being driven out of all the Middle Eastern Arab countries? The moon?
This crackpot woman is doing a great dishonor to her son i despise the demmocommy left for exploiting her shame on you and her for being so ignorant.
On the subject of "ignorant", you misspelled "I" and "democommie", and your punctuation is enough to make an English teacher weep.
Beyond that, Cindy Sheehan has paid a very dear price for the right to her opinion, as well as her right to shout it from the rooftops if she so desires. She has paid for this war with the life of her son.
The vast majority of Americans, yourself included I'll wager, have paid nothing for this war, nothing at all. They have not lost their life, a loved one, a limb, not so much as a fingernail. They have not seen their taxes go up, and are not even asked to ration precious commodities as was done in WWII.
In fact, the richest among us have seen their taxes go down! Nowhere else in the history of the world, that's right, the HISTORY OF THE WORLD, has a tax cut been instituted during a time of war.
You won't find so much as a line item in the federal budget to fight the war; it's all been through "special appropriations" and added to the deficit. We're running a tab to fight this war and it’s our children who will pick up that tab!
As a veteran and former troop myself, I can tell you that we sign up with the knowledge that we may be called upon to place ourselves at risk should our country need us to protect her. In return we ask that we not be sent into harm's way unnecessarily. This war was unnecessary. Iraq did not threaten us, nor did it have the capacity to threaten us.
No Mr. Brown, you are wrong. Ms. Sheehan has not dishonored her son. It is Mr. Bush and all those who beat the drum of war over Iraq that dishonor the troops, the fallen and our country as a whole.
Dishonor to her Son?
Come on, we been lied to from the very start!
This war is for the neo-cons and there is only one nation they love and that is Israel, not America!
I wonder how her dead son would feel after laying down his life to know his mother would be attacked in such a way?
The day America wakes up and see the control the Zionist have on the american media and the white house will be a day of liberation.
How much time have you spent serving your country, let me guess? ZERO!
Your either a freaking Arab or another liberal piece of crap that my brothers and I have made a Forum for you too spue your mucous from.
Yeak I am a Disabled Veteran and your NOT!!!!!!!!
Argh, The United States Military (all Branches) have been a volunteer force since 1976 does that mean that if a war comes regardless of the politics you plead that all you wanted was the benifits and not fulfill the OATH that one has taken, yes there is an OATH that is sworn too and that oath does include possibly laying your life on the line you sign regardless of the politics which you might not agree with but for sure her politics are not helping her sons buddies that are still there I can assure you of that.
Please take note that I do not hide behind names like AmericanMe but put my name right their like a MAN would or a real woman and not a coward,yes their like BUGS that scurrey when the light is turned on nothing that a good dose of Black Flag can't take care of or maybe some agent Orange to get rid of the BUSH their hiding under. LOL
Uh, Dennis? You're coming across more than a little angry, and I for one am not quite following you. Maybe it's time for a pill, or perhaps it's been a long day and you just need a double shot of Jack Black. Whichever it is, why not ratchet it down a notch and give it another go? If you've got a point, I for one would like to know what it is.
Also, you might want to take a look at your profile. The link to your "Hompage" goes nowhere.
Regards, and God Bless.
He made a point, just not one you care to hear.
"The United States Military (all Branches) have been a volunteer force since 1976 does that mean that if a war comes regardless of the politics you plead that all you wanted was the benifits and not fulfill the OATH that one has taken, yes there is an OATH that is sworn too and that oath does include possibly laying your life on the line you sign regardless of the politics which you might not agree with but for sure her politics are not helping her sons buddies that are still there I can assure you of that."
Turn your attention to the posts of Dennis Gransaull
"Your either a freaking Arab or another liberal piece of crap"
His postings are the pinnacle for most of the pro-war exerpts I've seen. A quick irrational answer and nothing to back it up. Laughable name-calling and misplaced testosterone seems to be the cornerstone of most war enthusiasts, not to mention a few politicians.
I support and respect all those in the service, but my sustenance ends at patronizing, injudicious politicians(which is not limited to the Republican Party). My name is Nathan Townsend, and yes Dennis, I am an American!
Neo-Con.... Code word for JOOOOOZ.
Thanks Jonathan, quoting his entire second post did absolutely nothing for me.
I still don't know who he's talking to or what issue he's addressing in the thread. From what I can see, his statement is just hanging out there without a hook. It sounds like he's shouting a general rant at everybody.
As far as the oath of enlistment goes, I'm very familiar with it; I took it many times. I quote it here for your reference:
"I, ______________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
If you read it closely, you will note that whoever takes this oath is swearing to 3 things in a hierarchical context.
First, "support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".
Second, "bear true faith and allegiance to the same" constitution.
Third, "obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice".
Seems pretty straight forward, but anyone who's ever had a class on the UCMJ, and that would be everyone in uniform, will remember that if an illegal order is given, you are obliged not to follow it. This can get pretty dicey since very few in uniform are also lawyers; it pretty much comes down to a matter of conscience. If it seems illegal, it probably is.
Does that mean that you only have to follow orders you agree with? No, absolutely not. Anyone taking this oath is obligated to follow the legal orders given to him/her...even if they disagree with them.
What about fighting in an illegal war?
That's a question right out of the deep end of the pool and worthy of debate. You would first have to define what an "illegal war" is. Is the Iraq war illegal? I'm not a lawyer, but since the President and Congress have signed off on it, my guess would be no. Even though the President and his minions lied to get us there, I don't think that has any effect on its legality. Morality is another issue, but I don't believe the UCMJ addresses that.
Lets see, I started my short military career in the Kansas National Guard as a tank crewman M60A1 in High School. After that I came to the decisions that I hated spending time in the field living in mud. So after High School I join the U.S. Navy and served aboard the USS John Rodgers. So I have about 8 years, 4 in the Kansas guard and 4 in the Navy.
I have to admitted that Navy was far better then the Army. Hot showers, different port of calls, getting drunk, more whores then you can shake a stick at.
So you see I have serviced and I am not a freaking Arab or Liberal scumbag. You do have one point right, I am not a disabled veteran.
But as a disabled veteran why would you want more young Americans to become disable in a useless war? A war for what?
1) Making the middle east safer for thieving Israelites? Who cars if there is a Israel or not?
2) Freedom for dirty Arabs? Who cares if they are free or not?
Why not have no war! Why not have America be like it was before that maggot Roosevelt got us in WWII. Why don’t we mind our owe business and stop being the worlds policeman. Isolationism work for many, many year in America. People respect us because we respect them by not sticking our noses in there business.
And that Oath your talking about is not to the republican party or the Demarcate party……..it’s to the consutions. To defend America from all enemies foreign and domestic. All Americans have the right and responsibility to speak up when a corporate scumbag like Bush starts a war for un-American interest.
And who is the real enemy to America?
1) Arabs who could not fight their way out of a paper bag, who have a collative I.Q. of a sea sponge.
2) Israel who greed for other peoples lands makes America hated because without our billions they could not survive.
3) Mr. Bush who has sold this nation down the tubes.
A man who lets china steal our manufacturing jobs.
A man who lets Israel sale our milarty secrets to China. China now has the AGIES system used on our most advanced combat ships. Thanks to our Jewish buddies!
A man who lets millions a pond millions of Mexicans walk into this nation stealing more jobs and driving down the wages for the rest of America. Mexicans who daily rape and murder Americans along the boarder.
A man that lets Microsoft fire Americans programmers and replaces them with dirty Indians. A man who has no problems outsourcing every American out of a job.
A man that cares far more about the bottom line then the lives of 1000’s of Americans in this war that does nothing to benefit America.
As far as AmericanMe goes, I like it. It like me, myself and I all rolled into one. It reflex’s my Isolationist views. Besides if I gave you my real name someone might steal my identity and spend all my money in Los Vegas!!!!!
I am for America and no one else, not the Jews, Arabs or Indians or Chinese or Mexicans.
You know there was a time in this nations history when the pre
America is made of Arabs, Chinese, Jews, Indians, Native Americans, Mexicans, and countless races and colors and creeds. If you are for America, you are All for One and One for All.
>I also think that Mr. Koppel owes me an apology for the rude way I was treated on his show.
No doubt she'd like another appearance on his show in order to receive it... LOL. Dumbass ho.
> Isolationism work for many, many year in America. People respect us because we respect them by not sticking our noses in there business.
No they don't. We are the Rich Bastard everyone without money loves to hate.
We are very clearly not chintzy with our largesse, but mere weeks after we gave 40 BILLION to African AIDS relief, Nelson "I have my life and freedom thanks to the USA" f***ing Mandela says "Americans don't care about other people".
**** 4 0 BILLION ****
ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY DOLLARS from each and every man, woman, and child in this nation.
For one single purpose, to help with AIDS relief.
Yeah, we don't give a rat's ass.
====
There are lots of people in this world, mostly Marxist liberal twits, who will hate us for nothing more than the fact that they want what we have, and can't grasp that they need to make it for themselves, not steal it from someone else.
Leaving them alone will simply give them more opportunities to sneak around behind our backs plotting nasty things to do to us.
Isolationism worked when the USA was a relatively poor, agrarian nation, and had two large protective moats on either side and two halfway decent neighbors north and south.
Now the moats are shrunk, and everyone is our neighbor. Not just the good guys to the north, but also Abdul and Hassan, the lunatic sociopaths from the dirtpile just down the road. We can sit around waiting for them to decide to attack us, or we can say, F*** it, and take the fight to them, knowing they are going to come sooner or later.
Scroll down to the 'Rhetoric' section of the following URL to see how Cindy Sheehan has lied about the PNAC Neocon/war for Israel paragraph that she wrote in her email to ABC's 'Nightline' program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cin...i/
Cindy_Sheehan
Where are the Jews supposed to live after being driven out of all the Middle Eastern Arab countries? The moon?
Agnes | 08.15.05 - 2:21 pm |
I ain't jewish, so I don't care, don't care for christianity that much either. That's right I am the rare but increasing pale-skinned racist anti-semite. Nothing is going to guilt me into white genocide. We stand against the people of Abraham with our banners of European blood, our kettle drums and our swords.
Jews run to your negroes, your arabs, and your mongols, your "12 tribes" for help, for whites stand seperate from the tribes of Israel. We will march unto Tel-Aviv and none will be spared.
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