Growing up my single mother of two raised her kids on a single income (no help from dear old dad) of less than $20K/year.
Nate,
It depends on how many kids you have (how you got there, 'nother story) and where you live. It also depends on how old your kids are-- they eat more and wear more clothes that cost more, etc as they get bigger. And toiletry costs rise also.
When our kids were young there were over 5 years we went with an income of less than $18K/yr, no gov't assistance. We lived in a mobile home and drove an '85 Suburban. Even if we reverted to less than 1200 sq ft for all 6 of us and drove an older vehicle, we still couldn't make it on that now. Not with the cost of housing and taxes and food.
Even the most conservative of spenders find it hard to live on less than $10K/family member once your kids start putting away more than the parents do!
It's a somewhat subjective situation. I wouldn't say it's always untrue, just highly exaggerated.
Bah.
My mom and dad raised 3 boys on 15 grand per year.
30 years ago.
Just imagine how much money there'd be to spend if 90% of the taxes we pay everyday were gone. No more taxes on ammo, alcohol and cigarettes, cell phones, 911 fees, gas and fuel taxes, food, movies, cars, or boats. I bet some of our incomes would just 50%.
My brother has 5 kids and Momma home schools and they do just fine. They are the best kids, and they cut down on expenses by not sending their kids to school. Think of all the extra expenses of just sending your kids to school.
Gregg,
Not sure that's valid considering you pay the taxes anyhoo, and when you homeschool you still buy supplies. This year our books cost around $500/kid, and that's nip and tuck. Compare that to our ps years-- around $100/kid for everything.
Now, if you're talking eliminating them all together, we'd all be better for it, financially and otherwise.
Yeah your gonna pay the taxes anyway, but that has nothing to do with the expenses of sending your children to school which is alot more than 500 bucks per kid.
Possibly for you, not us. The funding for schools, including busses, we're paying for anyway. What in the world are you buying for PS that costs you more than $500/kid???
Well It's not me so I can't accurately say what their expenses are. But you got a different dress code for example, differnet close, shorts and bare foot is ok at home school. You got to send them off with a lunch, which is an extra expense, than feeding them all together, you got the gas of taking this one to grade school that one to middle school. You got the problems of going to pich them up if they are sick or in trouble. You got the expense of going up their again when the kid comes home and says it is OK to be Gay. You got the usuall school suplies, not sharable by a bunch of kids in a bunch of different classes. Shall I go on.
Oh yeah, and you can pass down material from kid to kid home scholling, but this is Texas, I don't know what the Nazi States require.
Actually Buffy, it was more like 20 years ago.
a) my kids have always worn the same clothes, whether homeschooling or not. And the schools they went to before had no dress code.
b)lunch is the same when they're home as when they're at school. Nothing different. I always bought big bags/packages and split them up into washable containers. No difference.
c)everywhere we've lived had bussing. At taxpayer expense. Kids walked to elementary, bussed to jr high.
d) supplies included in $100/kid
Speaking in generalities here, but I would have to say, doesn't cost less to homeschool. Just produces a much more productive citizen and family environment.
Eh, inflation didn't kick in hard until the 80s anyway, didn't it? Compared to the 70s, I guess.
WE will just have to disagree, I am no expert, but my brother says it's cheaper to home school kids, I'l take his word for it.
Not for you, surely? I know you just a youngin', but...
Anyway, 20 years ago looked something like this...
Cost of a new home: $97,600.00
Median Household Income: $22,415.00
Cost of a first-class stamp: $0.20
Cost of a gallon of regular gas: $1.21
The average cost of raising a child then was around $145K. Now, over $200K.
Nate,
Quit looking at today through past-colored glasses.
Darlin 20 years ago my mom and dad had 2 of their 3 kids still at home, and one in college.
We lived in a 900 square foot house and my mom drove us around in a ford escort.
If you can raise three kids on 20 grand a year then, then you can raise 3 kids on 40 now.
The problem is people aren't willing to live without the new cars and huge house.
Okay,
I don't agree with you on an across the board basis, but in general I'm on your side. Most of the women who think they need to work don't. And it's usually for those reasons. But it varies family to family. There's no specific income on which any given family can or cannot live. It's subjective to many different factors.
Talk to me again when Jeb is eating 3x as much as you and is still a beanpole; he's 12 and wears a 10 1/2 shoe (that changes every 6 mos, btw); and you have to buy toiletries specifically for him. And he's just one of your kids! All I can say is pray to the good Lord you have boys!
Bufelda,
Children need what they are taught that they need.
I think that it boils down to being happy. I'm happy with 2 year old shirts, a seven year old twice-passed-down car, and a collection of CDs that hasn't had more than 10 additions in 3 years.
I think the Bible deals with people that need stuff all the time. One can find them under "materialism" in the index.
Well, Mrs Bill and I have made serious sacrifices in order for her to stay home and homeschool our three children. Our in-ground pool is not heated, her Toyota Sienna minivan is three years old, and we decided to struggle through for another year before getting a new one. I only have two 870 shotguns, which means I'm forced to swap barrels during the winter between my slug barrel and my deer barrel, so that I can keep the goose barrel on the other one.
But, we decided to splurge this year and hire out having someone winterize our lawn sprinkling system, I thought it was more important to have family time that Saturday, so, we can spend money when it really matters, I should just count my blessings. Some people really don't have the money and have to drain their own sprinkler system.
Nate,
Huh? Not sure where that came from. My kids know that what they need is about 50% of what they have, and about 10% of what they want.
Lol @ Bill.
We've done private Christian school, it's worked out well. We just budget carefully, don't drive the latest model cars, don't take elaborate vacations, etc. God always provides.
Speaking of provision, a big thank you to all who were praying for me. I now know what was going on with my heart. I got dizzy going to the stairs this morning, got even more dizzy, heart racing, and I kind of faded out. Called 911. Paradmedics were evaluating me and asked me to stand up. I stood, heart shot up to 140 bpm and I faded out again. Paramedics were nice enough to catch me. Final diagnosis at the ER: Premature junctional contractions. Not necessarily life threatning, not likely to occur frquently, and at worse I'll just pass out. I am just glad it was something more serious.
So thank you again for all of your prayers.
Dystopia, glad to hear you are alright.
Nate, "Children need what they are taught that they need."
So you are going to have Jeb go without shoes and he can wear the same pair of pants for several years, even when they come up to just below his knees and no deodorant (just use a splash of whiskey under the arms, like dad)... Just kidding mostly, but BR just turned two and he already asks for stuff in the grocery store. Thankfully he is easily re-directed and takes the "No's" pretty well.
Kids will "need" what their friends have, they will "need" what they see on TV, they will "need" stuff that we haven't even thought of yet.
Most of that is controlable to a certain degree, but we will all still have to deal with it.
I think it comes down to setting a standard, in frugal living / financial responsibility and being consistent... sticking with it.
MR - my kids almost never ask for anything at the grocery store or walking down the toy aisles either. They don't watch tv so they don't know what they are missing. When they do see something they would like, they don't have to be redirected, they say usually say "I can ask for X for christmas, or my birthday" Frankly, I think tv is worse for the gimmes than being around other kids.
Children believe that they NEED the newest this or that. Girls are taught that they need 47 pairs of shoes.
We're in a bit of a special circumstance. But it's a special circumstance that we've both busted our asses to build.
So will Jeb get hand-me-downs? Hell no. We're raising him right. To understand that stuff doesn't make you happy.
But you can bet your ass that he's gonna have the coolest toys around. Not the fad stuff that he doesn't really want anyway. But... The most spectacularly badass treehouse. With electricity and a network line!
In general people spoil their kids. They give them everything they want, and a bunch of stuff they DON'T want.
That is how kids are taught that they need stuff, that they not only don't need, they don't even want it.
Oh, allow me to explain my earlier post, now that I'm sober and of a less sardonic and churlish frame of mind.
Someone from, say, Haiti would read your posts as you read mine.
hehehehe
What were ya drinkin' Bill? How was it, and how ya feelin' now?
Well, I started out with Yuengling, because I generally have a few of those laying around, then foolishly switched to Kettle One sometime around 11ish. I still made it to work by 8, but things are looking a little blurry. I'm on my third cup of coffee.
Ahh.. The only coctail I'll drink...
4 oz Kettle One
Add nothing
Drink.
Why do they call cocktails cocktails?
That doesn't make much sense. Like parking in a driveway and driving down a parkway.
Whoa there Nate I'm not picking on your situation at all.
Fact is your married to a woman that has a particular goal in mind for a career and that getting that goal met requires sacrifice. You two are doing what it takes to make that happen and have a family. I got no problem with that.
All I was getting at was you wouldn't be setting on your ass at home if your wife was condemned to a life chasing carts and cleaning up spills on aisle 2. Dr. Who may still be in the “paying dues” stage of the game right now, but it ain’t always gonna be that way. You know it and I know it and that’s part of why you’re doing what you’re doing.
I got not problem with it, I think its good that you would put your wife’s ambition ahead of your own, and your doing right by your kids.
Res,
I know you didn't mean no harm.
I just wanted to point out that there is nothin' in our situation that would prevent anyone from doing the same thing.
We've lived on 38 grand a year for two years, with a youngin' and one on the way, and we don't have a single credit card.
You can do it. Period.
There's a key right there. No credit cards. We have one and it is only used about once a year. Credit cards are evil.
There's a post for you Nate. The evil of credit. Not just cards, but all kinds. Most people in america have at least one, but usually multiple credit cars, car loans, student loans, mortages, etc.
Yes, credit cards are evil, and one that's hard to get rid of.
Heh, I had to travel right after I was hired, the company needed a personal credit card to secure my rental car etc. till the corporate card came through.
I explained that I don't have a credit card, I use a debit card or cash for everything. I got a blank stare. I could not rent a car, get a plane ticket, reserve a hotel, etc without a credit card. Finally, I called my wife and she got one of those cards they mail us all the time and activated it so I could get things done. So, now I have a corporate AmEx in case I need a credit card for something.
Why do they call cocktails cocktails
Don't know, cock means valve or spigot, as in ball-cock valve, and tail means the last, soooo...
This is from hotwired;
Of all the stories about cocktail, H. L. Menken's is at least mildly believable: "In many English taverns the last of the liquor drawn from barrels of ardent spirits, otherwise the cock-tailings, were thrown together in a common receptacle. This mixture was sold to toppers at a reduced price so naturally they would call for cocktails." So, the dregs were asking for dregs, or entailings of the cock (spigot).
Don't even get me started on rental companies.
It's illegal to NOT take cash.
It's illegal to NOT take cash.
But difficult to do over the phone.
Granted. But they don't even take cash in person.
I had that fight several years ago with an insurance agent. She gave in.
I had that fight with 4 rental companies. they all turned me down, but they found me a local place that would take cash.
By rental I assume you mean for a house or apartment.
Every landlord I know would love to have all cash payments.
Sure, landlords love the cash, but try it for a rental car or moving truck. Well nigh impossible.
I've heard that some car rental companies will take debit and others won't. Rent-a-Wreck didn't hassle us when we used debit.
My husband and I cut up our cards last summer after listening to Dave Ramsey. That, writing down every penny we spend, and following a written budget every month are some of the best decisions we ever made. Since February, we've only had one month where we both had FT jobs (recent college grads), and without budgeting, we never would be able to make it.
If you are doing something over the phone, how will they know if you're using debit or credit, as long as it says Visa or Mastercard?
how will they know if you're using debit or credit, as long as it says Visa or Mastercard?
Generally they don't.
The whole reason they want the CC is that they want automatic pmt. With the new ACH rules they have that, so the only other reason would be that you have a credit line that they can charge damages against.
No Res, I was talking about rent-a-car places.
I loan my Dave Ramsey book out all the time. Unfortunately, so many folks give it back and say, "Yeah, maybe that's OK for you, but I can't do that." My answer is usually, "Yes, you CAN do it, but you just choose not to." Very sad. I love being anywhere where I can hear his show.
Well I was wrong.
Did they give you a real reason or did they just say "It's our policy"?
just BS policy. We even offered to give them the 800 bucks they charge the credit card with in cash. wouldn't take it.
Bitches.
I like ol' Dave Ramsey... But he's got some fairly screwed up ideas on real estate and mortgages.
The rental car companies like credit cards because most credit cards have built-in liability coverage for the cars. That way they don't have to worry about what your personal car insurance coverage is. Or, if you're like me and don't have a car or car insurance, they know that you're automatically covered.
What of his real estate and mortgage ideas don't you agree with?
Hey do y'all know anything about this guy that advertises on the radio about how to pay off your debt faster or something?
Name is...John Cummuta, and his "Transforming Debt Into Wealth" program. (had to think there for a minute and google)
Sounds like he's full of crap, but I don't know.
MB,
The man went bankrupt multiple times using his real-estate knowledge. Not a good track record.
His advice about never going beyond a 15 year term, and never putting less than 20% down on a home is simply stupid.
Let me splain, pre-payment penalties are extinct in the modern mortgage business, therefore it makes no sense to get a 15 year loan, when you can get a 30 year loan, and pay it off whenever you want.
The downpayment requirement is also stupid, when you consider the insanely low interest rates. You can wait to save up enough to buy, and end up with a rate 2 or 3 times as high as it is now. That would cost you thousands.
Well, I've never gotten over a 15 year mortgage (3 houses) except on a rental, I got a 20 year to keep the mortgage less than the income.
And, I always put 20% down to dodge the PMI, although, this past time I got a 80-10-10.
His advice is good advice, you can generally get about a point less if you go 15 year vs 30 year, and putting down at least 20% gets you out of PMI, which is over $100 per month.
Unless you're super disciplined to pre-pay the mortgage, go 15 year. And anyway, if you don't qualify for 15 year, or can't make the payment for 15 year, get less house - those are good clues. IMHO.
"His advice is good advice, you can generally get about a point less if you go 15 year vs 30 year, and putting down at least 20% gets you out of PMI, which is over $100 per month."
maybe 20 years ago. not today. You can get all sorts of companies to wave PMI, and the interest break based on term is a total sham. I ran a mortgage company. It was a sham I participated in. We never gave a break for a 15 year loan, and would often raise the rate to make up for the fact that the total loan amount would be less.
Did I screw people? Damned straight.
Res and tz do a hell of a lot of bloviating...Glad you noticed, though.
Was begining to think it was just my imagination!
Actually, if you have a credit card you can rent a car without them charging it to your CC. We do it all the time. They can't charge your card until you bring back their car, you simply tell them you will be paying in cash when you return it. Same with hotels. Many, when you make reservations want a CC number, some even when you check in. We just give it to them and always pay in cash when we leave.
What I love is how on campuses now every freshman already has or will rapidly aquire several CC's! They give them away to college kids the first couple of weeks of the semester. It's infuriates me. Of course, if the kids were taught differently at home, it might not be such a huge temptation for them.
SB...I resemble that last remark.
It burns me up, too.
Not just the CC companies giving out cards to college kids, but the wish that I was taught differently at home. My parents were a very poor example to follow when it came to money management.
It's funny to listen to my parents talk about how when they first got married it was so difficult to obtain a credit card, because you first had to prove that you had good credit. Well, if you never HAD a line of credit before, then...well, you know. Now, it doesn't make a rip of difference what your credit looks like, there's always someone eager to give you more. I got my credit card my sophomore year in college from one of those applications I filled out that they put in my shopping bag when I bought books, and I was glad then that it was easier to get a credit card than I had heard from my parents. What I didn't know at the time was how out of control credit can get. Not mine, mind you, but so many people are just ruined by it.
Heh...there was this one guy in the dorm who bought like $2000 worth of stereo equipment which all ended up being repossessed one day. Moron.
i have a debit card and then a credit card that is under my mom's account so i can run errands for her. if i go somewhere that won't accept my debit, i use her credit card and pay her back immediately. i never allow credit to accumulate...put something on your credit card? deduct it from your checkbook right then. unless it's for education or house or emergency, credit should be avoided.
We have a Discover card and charge significant amounts on it. However, we ALWAYS pay it off. The 1% cash back isn't a huge amount, but it's enough for something nice that's extra. The big thing is that we don't ever let it accumulate charges.
We cancelled our Citibank CC when we found out that they refused service to gun shops. Screw 'em. Another company put on our personal boycott list.
I once calculated that if we just answered the companies begging to give us credit for 1 month we would end up with appoximately 6 times our annual income. I had to buy a new shredder because the credit offers burned out my old one.
You know, for unwanted mail (except credit cards, obviously) you can just write "return to sender" and put it back in the box. Or, for more fun, use the prepaid, pre-addressed envelopes to mail other junk mail back.
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