Right on, Nate. This is another one of my hot buttons. Police, the representatives of the elite right there on the street with the commoners.
The police are a protected class. When was the last time you read that a cop went to prison for shooting or abusing a citizen? Never. They can do whatever they want and they know it. Administrative leave. That's all they get. Great punishment.
Try raising a child with threat of punishment, but no actual punishment, and guess what you get? A gang member and/or a permanent child with a bad temper.
Without punishment, that's too much power for guys like this to handle. I even have a friend who was told to his face after being abused by a cop that they could "do whatever they want". That case went to a huge suit because the cops were so misbehaved. Did we hear about that in the press around here? Nooooo.
Screw'em. Like I've always said... you know how you know a good cop? He's unemployed. Because he did the right thing and began arresting the criminals in the department. If your co-workers are going to greivously break the law on a regular basis, and your job is to arrest people like that and you don't, you're complicit. Period.
My personal favorite story is about the cop who walked into someone's house and shot the guy at his computer. Seems the front door was open (it was summer) and the cop thought someone had broken in so he walked into the house and before the guy could turn around, shot him. Lovely.
Sometimes they are a trigger happy bunch. The Cops broke into the house next to my in-laws because of a supsected burglary. The two cops split up and met up at the back of the house.
Problem was neither knew it was a fellow officer when they met up and one discharged his weapon at the other (a miss, you can determine if it was unlucky or not).
Chagrined, they left and didn't report the incident. The homeowners found the bullet hole in their wall and were eventually able to piece together what happened. No discipline for either officer as far as I know.
I couldn't agree with you more, Nate, and that's from a Michigander, where cops are notorious for being arrogant, high-handed, and downright abusive to law-abiding citizens. I don't feel safe when I see a patrol car in my neighborhood during my walks - I worry about where I can hide. God forbid they actually do something useful.
I'll tell ya when cops really went over to the dark side; when they started enforcing traffic laws, speed limits in particular. This made sure that when the public encountered a cop, 99% of the time it was an expensive and unpleasant encounter. This, of course, was the whole plan for speed limits. Speed limits are one of the most overlooked nerferious schemes hatched on the public. Heck, I bet even Nate don't know the speed limit story. The original recommendation from the Gov't agency tasked with evaluating traffic issues was for no speed limits, or for that matter, much of any traffic laws (this was back in the 1960's). But, that didn't serve the purpose of alienating the police from the public, so that plan was scrapped.
Sometimes they are a trigger happy bunch.
This is like saying that sailors sometimes like to have a beer.
An off-duty police officer out walking his dog in August 1995 fired 11 times while trying to stop an unarmed motorist who had hit a utility pole and left the scene of the accident. An off-duty police officer fishing in May 1995 shot an unarmed man three times after arguing with him on the banks of Rock Creek. In August, an officer ended a police chase of an irrational truck driver who had rammed several cars by firing 38 times into the truck's cab, killing the unarmed driver.
District officers in the last five years shot at 54 cars they said drove at them or others in "vehicular attacks." The shootings have killed nine people – all of them unarmed – and wounded 19.
And the punch line;
In a small hearing room closed to the public, nine of every 10 shootings are ruled justified by department officials who read the reports filed by investigating officers but generally hear no witnesses.
Source (and mandatory reading, IMHO);
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp...olice1page1.htm
I live in NH. About four years ago, on my way home from work, I had a state cop pull me over for a headlight out. Heran my lisence, registration, etc., came back and gave me a warning. No problem. About 30 miles down the road, another state cop pulls me over for the same thing. I explain I just had been pulled over, etc. He runs my lisence, and checks to see if what I said was true, which it was. He lets me go. About a quarter mile from home, I stop to get milk at a little store. A town cop pulls up behind me, blocking me in, as the store was in front of me. As I exit the vehicle, the (female) cop jumps out (just like on TV) and scrunches down behind her door, with the window open, and shoves her gun through the open window, and screams at me to get back in the car. I did, and after about 2 minutes, two more cruisers pull in, and park along both sides of me, completely blocking me in. Then the first cop walks up to my car and says "Do you know you have a headlight out?" I explained that this was the third time in an hour I was pulled over, and all I wanted was some milk, and to go home without being shot. She didn't like that too much. All this for a headlight. Needless to say, I no longer have any respect for cops.
what else would you expect from a news organization that seems to specialize in promoting a neo-con, right wing agenda? they're a sorry excuse for a news organization. a low budget fox news, even.
So Bill, what is the story?
What has gone on for years in the black community is spreading into the suburbs. Even my dear old upper middle class mother, can't stand cops.
This is the story of what happened recently to a friend of mine. What really happened and then what he wished he would have said:
Officer: Good day, May I see your id and registration?
Me: I am having a good day thank you. Could I ask you a couple of questions first?
Officer: Of course
Me: Am I under arrest?
Officer: Of course not.
Me: Does that mean I am free to go?
Officer: Ahhhhhhhh, ahhhhhhh, I just wanted to ask you about that stop sign back there? You did a California stop back there.
Me: Ok here is my Lic and Registration.
Officer: Goes back, checks me out, then says you have not been stopped before. You are free to go. Please stop at stop signs in the future.
_________________________
What I should have said before handing him anything:
Me: Officer there are only three options. 1) Either I am under arrest, or 2) I leave, or 3) I volunteer to stay here. I don't want to volunteer.
Officer: Please show me your Id before you go.
Me: If I show you my ID, will you use it against me in a court of law?
(now he is in a bind. If he says yes, I don't have to show it to him. If he says no, he can't give me a ticket.)
I wonder what would happen if you actually try the second scenario.
Simple. Option 1. You're under arrest.
Or you get 120 rounds pumped into you...well, to be fair, most of those rounds will go flying into nearby homes businesses probably...
Nate's right, for two reasons:
1. Driving without a license is an offense in most jurisdictions. Failure to provide that license is typically a misdemeanor traffic offense.
2. Thanks to SCOTUS ruling in Hiibel vs. Nevada, you are legally compelled to identify yourself to police. This ruling effectively negates that alternative scenario, which is based on the Fifth Amendment.
Alright, go ahead and kill the cop.
See how long it is before "the blue wall" falls on you like a ton of bricks!
What about all his good, badge-wearing, gun-toting union-labor buddies...You gonna kill them too? Not very damned likely, but you had better be prepared to.
Oh, and you might be able to outrun them, but can you outrun their radios?
Think logically, instead of emotionally once in a while...It just might save your life!
"Oh, and you might be able to outrun them, but can you outrun their radios?"
Wouldn't be the first time. Nor would it be the last.
1) Just because it's a law doesn't make it morally acceptable.
2) Just because the SCOTUS ruled on it doesn't make it law, nor does it make it morally acceptable.
Like many others, I'm sick of being told what I can and cannot do by useless half-witted bureaucrats and arrogant diptards with uniforms, shiny badges and power trips just because they can.
Go Away.
Leave. Me. Alone.
As Galt said, "Get the hell out of my way!"
I'm no cop lover, but to be fair, there are many policemen out there who are decent, upright folks. I've had a couple of recent encounters w/ cops who treated me w/ respect & courtesy.
" 1) Just because it's a law doesn't make it morally acceptable.
2) Just because the SCOTUS ruled on it doesn't make it law, nor does it make it morally acceptable."
Yes, use the 'morally unacceptable' defense next time you are on trial for refusing to show your license. Worked out real nice for Mr. Hiibel, didn't it?
Since when have all laws been moral, anyway? It isn't right, but it's still a fact of life in these here United States.
The SCOTUS decision is relevant because it establishes legal precedent. The cops now know they are in the clear to arrest you if you refuse to identify yourself.
If you want to wear the handcuffs and pay the fines because you think having to show your ID is 'morally unacceptable', feel free. Me, I have a family to lead, and it's not gonna get done by sitting in jail over a petty little thing like that.
Again, as the man said, pick your battles. This one ain't it, IMO.
That's what I love about you and Bane Waterboy... Your "Bend over and take it like a man" attitude.
WaterBoy,
I'm arguing the principles, not the practicalities. I understand perfectly that the gov't wouldn't be very tolerant of my principles, should a situation like we're thinking of ever arise. Many of us here are just sick of We the People being pushed around.
Sometimes, you've just got to stand on a principle--even if it's a sinking ship. (Think Rosa Parks, et al. Perhaps she's a poor example, Nate could think of a better one...)
"Give me Liberty, or give me Death!"
Wes,
Be glad you caught them on a "good" day because it is at their whim that you are not beaten or shot.
I think this is the problem that many Americans are coming to see all to clearly. Let's just hope it's not too late.
Ha! And that's what I love about you, Nate...that you delude yourself into thinking you're actually any different. How's your case in Tax Court going, BTW?
Come back and talk to me after you shoot a cop over a speeding ticket, OK? Your fortress ain't done, yet.
jml1911a1: "Sometimes, you've just got to stand on a principle--even if it's a sinking ship."
Of course. All I'm pointing out is in the scenario SpaceBunny presented, the most likely outcome would be option 1, for the reasons I stated. It doesn't make it right, but if that's your line, fine; make your stand. It seems like your sacrifice would be better spent on a larger principle, though.
Waterboy:
> f you want to wear the handcuffs and pay the fines because you think having to show your ID is 'morally unacceptable...
The Supreme Court decision determined that you have to identify yourself to an officer. It did not determine that you have to present ID.
JD: Yes, I know. Go back and look at item 2 of my 5:22pm post yesterday.
In the scenario presented, though, the proposed tactic relies on not identifying oneself as a right provided by the Fifth Amendment. The two legal aspects I listed serve to foil this maneuver; either the requirement to carry a valid DL while driving, or the requirement to identify oneself to an officer (in Nevada, at least).
Failure to do the first will likely generate another ticket. Failure to do the second (or both) will most probably end up with the cuffs slapped on, if the horror stories posted here are any indication.
"Come back and talk to me after you shoot a cop over a speeding ticket, OK?"
Bait and switch there Nancy. Never said I'd shoot a cop over a speeding ticket. Said I would shoot one before I'd let him taze me, or a family member of mine.
So, Soup was right...it is just bluster.
You rail against taxes, but you pay them like the rest of us. You rant against petty government intrusion, but you register your truck and bike and get a driver's license like the rest of us. You go on about petty tyrant cops, but if you're pulled over in your pickup with the family along, are you going to risk a high-speed chase? No, you'll pull over like the rest of us.
Why? Because they haven't crossed your line yet, just like the rest of us. Remember Go Time?
"It's quite possible that I may have to bend over and take it for a while in order to buy some time to make some preparations."
Got news for ya bud...you already are.
And you do look so cute with your pretty pink panties wadded up around your ankles and bent over like that. 
I've been pulled over twice my whole life. Both were very unpleasant encounters. I don't volunteer any information and I do nothing to be helpful and I speak in a quiet and calm voice. I also made sure I got the badge number so I could file a complaint that of course resulted in a response supportive of the police officers in question. There are still some good cops out there, but the bad ones are very scarey.
Actually Nancy,
I didn't say it was Go Time then, and I've not said it since. What I've said, is simply that a line exists. No I realize to invertibrates like yourself, it may be hard to understand... so I try to remain patient with you, in the hopes that one day your testicles may finally drop.
Seriously... you're part French right?
Of course I pull over for the cops (when I'm in the trucks, the bike, not so much). Of course I wouldn't shoot a cop over a ticket. Self-defense is another deal though...
Nate, Nate, Nate...sometimes your cognitive deficiency is simply astounding.
Seriously...you weren't PS educated, were you? That explains it.
The whole point of your Go Time post was to say they haven't crossed your line, yet. That you will continue to bend over and take it until they do.
The same thing you denigrate Bane and I for doing, you are also doing.
Get it?
Bah! Just keep those blinders on.
Women as cops now that is dangerous. She wuz in a bad mood that day yer honor and whipped her gun out ever time we stopped for doughnuts.
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