I asked a cop friend of mine what cops, in general, thought of people with CC permits. His exact quote was 'cops don't like anyone else with guns.' Your post is right on the money. Its like pulling people out of the Matrix to get them to see the truth.
Nate, is it possible at all to purchase guns without having the fact of your purchase registered somewhere?
Astro,
The paperwork is largely a myth. There is paper work... but it's destroyed shortly after the purchase. The ATF is only allowed to keep the stuff for 3-months.
From talking to the owners of the gun shops I visit in Oklahoma, they told me that the background check form they are required to have the customer fill out is destroyed soon after they make the call to the county sheriff. All the sheriff's office does is put your name in whatever criminal database they have access to, if you are clean then you get the gun.
Whether the sheriff's office or the database administrators keep every query, I don't know.
Where the ATF comes into it, I have no idea. I would imagine they have every serial number from every domestically retailed weapon and what dealer it went to. Beyond that I doubt they have much information.
Well, then what about those who are worried about gun confiscation at some point in the future? If the govt knows who has guns from all this registration bs, then they just have to go to your house to confiscate them.
I've been thinking of getting at least a shotgun if not also a handgun, but I don't necessarily want that known by anyone.
Suggestions for good, low-priced shotguns?
"If the govt knows who has guns from all this registration bs, then they just have to go to your house to confiscate them."
THat's what we're sayin' Astro. There is no registration. The government doesn't know who has guns and who doesn't.
As for shotguns.. Mossberg 500. Cheap, realiable, well-made pump.
Regarding scared police officers:
Check out the story of Amadou Diallo. He was shot by four NYPD officers (19 hits out of 41 shots fired) while unarmed and not threatening.
Malcom Gladwell covered this story in his book, Blink, in his discussion of how fear, such as that experienced by the four undercover officers, renders them "autistic", and under control of their survival instincts, and with their rational mind "turned off".
Indeed, You want nothing to do with a bunch of scared cops..
Astro,
as long as you're buying from a private individual, you don't have to fill out any paperwork. This limits you to used guns, of course. So buying from an aquantence, ad in the newspaper, or from an individual at a gun show: no paper work.
If you haven't been to a gun show before, customers usually carry around guns they may want to sell or trade, so just stop one and ask what they've got and the price. Often, dealers or private individuals will have tables for their "personal collections" set up.
For a handgun, a good Glock 9mm used can be had for less than $350. With the LE mag, this will get you 18+1 shots. Load it with some good hollow-points and you're set.
You might pick up a cheap 22. pistol to stick under the seat of your car, maybe $100-150, and pick up hollow-points for that to (yes, they actually do expand, even for a modest .22). Ammo for a 22 is cheap, 550 hollow-point bullets for $10 at Walmart. Pay cash for the ammo to, no paper trail.
Hey Nate, what do those Mossberg shotguns go for used?
Astro, I'm also a big leary of the CCW issue.
Guns in the home, vehicle, are fine to me. I just keep pepper-spray (with UV dye) on my keychain and laying around. Chances are, if you're far enough away that the pepper-spray wouldn't reach, then you're far enough away to run.
They're only a few $ each, so you can buy lots of them and keep them everywhere. The newer ones often include dyes, so if you spray somebody with it, chances are, a purple guy in tears would be easy to identify
Astro,
I'm planing another rafting trip w/ WB in the next few weeks. I can tack on a extra day and take you shooting if you want. Let me know what guns your interested in and I'll bring some samples for you to shoot.
As an aside, since we are talking about guns, I would really like to take a tactical course someday.
SB,
Thats a great idea, its fun and educational. Does your local gun club sponser them?
when aren't we on the subject of guns?
Very true, I've just been thinking about it recently after it was brought here a while back. I agree with you that it would be educational, and I'm hoping fun!
The classes are a bunch of fun, and it brings a whole new meaning to practical marksmanship. Another great way to get into that type of shooting is to join a IDPA league. I would think OC could point you in the right direction for one near you. I love practical shooitng. Its one thing to hit a target, its another to have to do it quickly when the presure is on.
"The paperwork is largely a myth. There is paper work... but it's destroyed shortly after the purchase. The ATF is only allowed to keep the stuff for 3-months."
Partly incorrect. The ATF isn't supposed to keep the paperwork, but the DEALER has to. It's literally paperwork; he has to keep carbons for a period of time (sorry I don't know how long), and the ATF can get individual papers from him at any time. They just can't database it or store it themselves.
i believe the dealer must keep the papers forever - ie, until he quits the business - at which point he boxes them up & turns them all over to the BATF.
Sorry Nate I don't agree wtih you on there not being "gun registration".
I do agree with papa and nick about the dealer having to keep all the paperwork.
Astro, you might want to give this a read...
http://www.doingfreedom.com/gen/
...perlessgun.html
SB, if I remember correctly OC had posted in the Comments on VD's that he was doing (leading?) something to that effect at a club near ya'll. Maybe I read it wrong, but that is what I think remember him posting.
I remember at the time thinking it would be neat to shoot with him.
Actually it would be neat to shoot with many of you.
"You want nothing to do with a bunch of scared cops."
I definately agree with you on that.
Although I would say that you want nothing to do with a bunch of cops, in general.
MR,
It would be impossible to collect all of those carbon copies, and create any type of usefull database. And as for paperwork... you're also leaving out all the guns that are sold in places like TN to CCW holders.
No paperwork at all in those cases. Show 'em the license. buy gun. Sign nothing.
"It would be impossible to collect all of those carbon copies"
I never said they would all be collected... I highly suspect that at least 50%, hopefully more, dealers places of business would accidently catch fire if the ATF ever needed all that paperwork en masse.
"And as for paperwork... you're also leaving out all the guns that are sold in places like TN to CCW holders."
How many people hold CCW and purchase and how many ppl do not have a CCW and purchase? In non-reg or reg states...
Res, email me. I'll think about it.
Well Nate...sounds like ATF's on our side anyway.
Best post on cops yet. Confirms what a Sargeant told me:
"You get an intruder, shoot to kill, clean things up to make you look good. Then call us. All we know is what we see, and you tell us."
It doesn't help that many large cities have hired criminal elements into the police force: How Racial P.C. Corrupted the LAPD By Jan Golab
[...] significant numbers with criminal links or gang associations--were accepted into the department.
L.A. is not the only city that damaged its police force in a headlong rush for "diversity." [...]
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