Amen Bro!
"We should also have different governments."
Amen and Amen.
The south would probably speak Spanish too. But that would be a small price to pay.
The Unabridged Oxford English dictionary will suffice, Salt.
ARRGH!
I'm voting yes, but you have to wait until I get there. The west coast, and the NE would collapse unto themselves almost immediately.
I would laugh, quite heartily.
The right to secession has been recognized in this country since at least the Declaration of Independence.
" When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
and...
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,..."
What they said...self-evident...
OK, Nate. I finally got a minute to come over here, lured by the novelty of secession.
As a southerner, part of me takes a guilty pleasure in fantasizing about having it "our way," if by "our way" you mean a society that's sets the clock back a bit on some of the cultural changes that haven't put our nation in a moral decline.
But that said, not all southerners are likely to agree.
My fear is that moderates like me would be considered "Yankee-minded" and would suddenly find ourselves out of place in the highly moralistic atmosphere I believe the south could become after secession.
After all, those who are drawn to it are, I'd be willing to wager, hardcore social conservatives.
I'd hate to have to leave the farm and move up North to be back among like-minded folk.
This is my initial reaction to all of this.
I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. But be gentle. This is, after all my first time here. 
Here's another problem I see with secession: Those who advocate it aren't cynical enough.
Once upon a time, the values of most of the US were pretty in line with what we see in the south today.
But as government grew and power became more attractive to the power-holders, politicians became more eager to promise constituents things in order to keep their offices.
The south is behind other parts of the nation in pandering to social causes. But if we break off, eventually the south would become a microcosm of what we see up North. I think it would even happen faster than we think, because the pandering skills that took time to evolve are already well-honed by a lot of southern politicians.
I think even in a Southern Eutopia you'd quickly see that we're not as in lockstep as you think. There will still be urban vs. rural issues, coastal vs. agricultural. And, as I stated in an earlier post, you may be surprised by how quickly we'd become divided on social issues.
I think it's great to be idealistic; the founding fathers were. When this nation began, most were of one accord.
But look how we've parted ways.
It would be no different in the United Southern States of America.
Hrm...
The thing about most southrons Morgan is that even when they are social conservatives, they are still less likely to be willing to use the power of the government to force their views on you.
For example... We may have sodomy laws... but we had sodomy laws for 200 years... and you never once saw homosexual houses raided did you?
You wouldn't see that sort of thing, because in the South, we still value property rights. Its your house, so what you do in it is your business. Dig?
Of course there wouldn't be total agreement. And yes.. Social conservatives would rule the day. But that doesn't mean there wouldn't be wide variation between the individual states. I doubt seriously you'd have a problem finding places you like. City's are city's after all.
UNC and Wake aren't gonna suddenly go Bible-beater on ya.
While the myth says otherwise, social conservatives tend to value individual rights a great deal more than liberals do. The great exception being the War on Drugs... which will be eliminated entirely in the South, because there will be no federal enforcement.
Imagine for a moment Morgan... You can't effect change on a national level... but what about on a state level? North Carolina ain't that big. You can go talk to your state representative any time you want. There's less money involved, and less corruption.
Local matters should be handled locally.
That's all I'm sayin'.
Those are valid points darlin'.. so let me address them...
1) its not going to be a utopia. It's just going to be a limited federal government. The states will still make mistakes. They just won't all make the same ones.
2) There is a "dependence" issue that we have to deal with. Its the attitude of looking to the government to solve your problems. This is particularly a problem in urban areas. The misconseption is that this is a new thing. It's not. It's always been there. Read an issue of the New York Times from 1850. It's the same crap you read today.
I would ask that you consider the immediate and instant economic benefits of secession. Here are a few:
1) The Elimination of all federal income taxes. Everyone gets an instant raise. A big raise. No FICA. No SSI. No employment taxes... We're talking about a 40% salary increase... overnight.
2) Total Free Trade: New Orleans would instantly become the busiest harbor in the world, and NYC's harbor would largely fall to ruin. Interestingly, Lincoln himself predicted this and sited it as a reason to go to war in an interview with the Times.
3) Business will flock to the New South. Little regulation... little interference... can you say employment boom? Wages would be through the roof.
So... when those people ask how they will get along without all that help from Uncle Sam... To them I say... "You will get by with this new job... and this 40% raise. That's how."
It's not perfect. Its not a utopia. its just a vision of limited government. No more. No less.
"The west coast, and the NE would collapse unto themselves almost immediately."
They'd fall into irrelevancy with high unemployment and huge debts, then start pissing and moaning like the French.
"They'd fall into irrelevancy with high unemployment and huge debts, then start pissing and moaning like the French."
Dammit Jamie. Move to America. Marry my wife's little sister.
By the way.. Morgan... If its your first time here... I strongly suggest you check the archives... head over to May of 2004... there are some tales there you just have to read..
Oh.. and stop back by in the mornin'...
It's the much anticipated return of Bad Joke Wednesday!
...'bout frickin' time!
I got more Hairy Dogs than you can shake a stick at.
My old man would be waiting to kick my arse if I ever abandoned Australia after I kick the bucket... but I've been tempted to move to the American South Nate. I've thought about it, believe me. Especially with the bloody tax rates we get down here.
Socially conservative AND eliminate the drug war?! Dayum! Count me in. I'll pack my bags!
Nate, For President of
The United Confederate States of America!!!!!
I'll vote for you in a heartbeat!
Amen on your entire entry!
You are so right on target!
The problem (one of them) with the US is it's unwillingness to admit the cultural differnceness across such a vast area. Western Europe is a much smaller area than the US and they have how many different countries? All culturally different.
Nate, just make sure you have very strict immigration policies from other "former" states when you secede or you'll have situations happening like when the Californian's move to new areas and wreck them.
It would certainly be nice to live in a place like you suggest, Nate. That's definitely what the framers of the constitution had in mind. But socialist/statists of all stripes cannot allow a group of freemen to break away. They would be "left" with college professors, actors and the dregs, in short order. It would be exactly like France, as has already been suggested, and require lots of cheap labor immigration to stay afloat.
BTW, anyone have anyone know anything about Danville, Virginia? Is it a decent place to live?
Secession will never happen again along the lines that it did in the 1860's. There are too many major metro areas in the south that are heavily populated with lovers of big government and yankee immigrants.
Now in 50 years, I could see the southwest (TX, NM, AZ, & CA)seceding. The entire demography of these states has changed, and where their loyalties will ultimately lie, remains to be seen. A predominantly hispanic southwest may have new ideas about how they want to be governed. It will be interesting. Hope I'm dead when it happens.
"you'll have situations happening like when the Californian's move to new areas and wreck them."
Yes... I'm well aware of the Locust problem.
OK, Nate.
You make a good argument, but I still think you're missing the point about a few things.
First of all, you conceded that social conservatists would rule the day in the New South. To soften this, you said that wouldn't mean a whole lot of change, since even in southern, conservative states the current laws against sodomy are rarely enforced and liberal-leaning institutions like UNC are allowed to flourish.
But I'll tell you why that is. It's because if a law against sodomy were enforced it would probably be ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court, as well it should. Sodomy isn't just defined as anal sex between homosexuals, but also oral sex - something practiced between consenting heterosexuals. (No, I don't like the idea of the cops busting in my door if I'm getting busy with the husband, thank you very much).
If the south became a nation unto itself, states would feel free to enforce such laws without challenge.
And might I remind you that most social conservatives are very hostile to academia? Yes, yes, I know, they say universtities teach liberalism and whatnot. But I'd rather see that than see UNC turned into another Liberty University.
I just don't buy the philosophy that a bunch of conservatives running the show would take a hands-off approach. It just wouldn't happen, Nate.
Morgan: Social Conservatives are hostile to academia because they are dishonest and godless. They fudge facts to push their point of view, not engage in scholarly debate and study, and let the facts take them where they lead even if it does not support their position.
What is wrong with Liberty University? Is there a problem from your point of view or is that a cheap shot?
The pandering skills developed by politicians go back into ancient times, see Greece and Rome. The pols. here had them but were too afraid to use them until after Jackson.
Nate: The only problem as I see it is the franchise. How do you get people to vote succession when the South is so much more homogeneous? A benvolent dictator might work better to drive out the undesirables before any franchise is allowed. But we know how that might go!!!
I'd have to move back South. I'm a little worried that all the Yanks that have moved into my homestate of Florida might vote against the secession. All the northern FL rednecks would have to either move to GA or fight our own civil war. You're welcome to come help, Jamie.
"But I'll tell you why that is. It's because if a law against sodomy were enforced it would probably be ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court, as well it should."
Darlin' thats just not true. I mean... it sounds good... particularly to those who's concept of history dates all the way back to 1985... but sounding good to the ignorant and being true simply aren't the same.
Sodomy laws are on the books as an add-on penalty. They have never been invoked in any case, other than that of molestation or rape. Thus giving the prosecution an excuse to throw the bastard offender in jail longer.
The idea that you could prosecute a homosexual for buggery... is just insane. It's got nothing to do with a worry that the SCOTUS would over turn the law... because when the laws were written and adopted, it was widely known that SCOTUS didn't have the power to do such a thing.
Legally it still doesn't.
My question to you is...
If a culture wants to govern itself in a certain way... Why shouldn't it? Because you don't agree with it? Is that a good enough reason?
Should I therefore have the right to force Yankees to have small government?
No. and No.
We can move darlin'.
Nate,
Though I am a southerner, I don't adhere to a lot of what is being touted here as southern culture.
Take JohnR's comments for instance. Nothing against JohnR personally, but he sort of proved my point. He's the type of person who is hostile to academia, granted he has a right to be.
But not all of us are suspicious of higher learning. Not all of us want to send our kids to a school that spouts a Fallwellesque "Christian worldview."
But if people like JohnR were in power, I'd be willing to bet that's what we'd end up with.
You say buggery or oral sex or whatever wouldn't be prosecuted in the United Southern States. I'm still not so sure. In N.C., cohabitation is still against the law and we had a woman in one local county lose ther job because she was living with her boyfriend. There's a fight right now to have the law taken off the books. Given the conservative nature of the state, it remains to be seen if it will be. I hope it will be. It's an obsolte law. But if moralists were in complete control it wouldn't have a chance in hell.
But it goes to show you that people can and are caught up in unfair laws.
As far as a "culture" governing itself...who are you to say defines southern culture? I'm as southern as you, but I'm more progressive. I don't think one has to be conservative to be southern.
When conservative southerners start questioning the loyalty of more progressive southerners, it's no more fair than black liberals questioning the "blackness" of conservative African Americans.
Social conservatives don't own the culture and they don't own the south.
I can understand wistfulness on their part, but I would never want to see them assume complete power.
" In N.C., cohabitation is still against the law and we had a woman in one local county lose ther job because she was living with her boyfriend. There's a fight right now to have the law taken off the books. "
how about we take this an issue at a time Morgan... and lets start with this one right here... Why should the state have the power to tell the owner of said business whom he can hire and fire and why?
It's his business. if he wants to fire someone for... well... anything... He has that right.
As for JohnR's hostility towards academia... please understand it's not towards learning, or education. It's towards the elite socialists who are brainwashing kids.
You would see some reigning in of Universitys... though it would vary widely state to state. This in no way means that Universities would be legally required to teach Christianity. That's just crazy and it has no historical basis.
If you can just point to a few cases where a homosexual man was prosecuted for consentual buggery... I'll be glad to reconsider.
And Public Buggery doesn't count either! If anyone thinks they should have a right to such a thing... well that's just appauling!
Thank you - I now have a name for it.
Nate, this wasn't a private business. It was a sheriff's office. The woman in question was a 911 dispatcher.
Someone in the office pointed out that she was living with her boyfriend and she lost her job for breaking "the law."
Now, if you're in favor of that, then that's the very reason I'd never support your "nation." The woman had a good work record. The law itself should have been repealed long ago. There is no reason who that woman should have lost her job over her living situation. Period.
You're just continuing to demostrate the sort of narrow-minded, intrusive meddling that we could expect under your southern nation.
Like I said, JohnR is free to distrust academia all he likes. It's a free country. Even if the guy sits around in a tin foil hat keeping watch for black helicopters, I don't care as long as he isn't affecting me.
But I know plenty of kids in the university system - kids of very conservative parents - who are NOT being brainwashed. Why? Because they were sent off with a firm enough foundation that they're able to field differing viewpoints without it eroding their value base.
Now, if you're a weak-minded parent who doubts you've instilled your kid with sufficient moral values, then - by all means - only send them somewhere where the instructors will parrot what you've said.
But college is a good time to get a bead on what others think, including those who may offer differing viewpoints to what they're used to. I think if kids know to expect this and maintain good communication with their parents there's little to fear.
And regardless of what you think, there are a lot of conservative professors. One of my most conservatives friends is a criminal justice professor at a major university.
You say there's no "historical basis" for Christianizing universities? Well, we can't fast forward into what your nation would be like, can we? So there's no way of knowing just how mixed Christiainity would become in academia and government if, say, JohnR became president.
Once again, Nate, I enjoy the heck out of our debate but if you don't recognize that this is a pipe dream you're mad as a hatter.
If the public wants to make rules and regulations about the policies of hiring and firing public employees, that is well within their rights. Do I think the sherriff acted correctly?
No.
Do I think the sherriff, as an elected official has the right to hire and fire whom he pleases?
That depends on the rules of the county he's sherriff in.
See how all this works?
You seem to be worried about how we'd govern ourselves. My point is that how we'd do it is irrelevant. We have the right to do it.
On one hand you point out that society is homogenized... then on the other you frett about the extreme social conservatives holding all the power. It's not both ways darlin'. What you'd have is both. You'd have a society with basic values of fairness... very much in-line with today's America, combined with the very limited government of early America.
You seem to be expecting perfection... some utopian vision... and until its met you refuse to offer support.
I'm not offering utopia or perfection. I'm offering only limited government. No more. No less.
"knowing just how mixed Christiainity would become in academia and government if, say, JohnR became president."
Darlin' you obviously don't know JohnR. The plain truth is, most hardcore conservative Christians out there would never abuse the power of the presidency.
There is this insane idea that Christians want a theocracy... Its pure crap perpetuated by the Left.
**Sigh**
Its disappointing that this had to boil down to: "I don't like it because I don't think they'd govern the way I want them too."
It's really sad to know that so many in the South feel this way... to know that so many in the South think we're just to dumb and irresponsible to make decisions for ourselves.
Nate, I don't believe that. I think the reason the right hasn't pursued theocracy is because it's being checked by the left.
And the reason religion remains even though some on the left would like to have all vestiges of it removed is because the left is checked by the right.
You said from the get-go that you expect social conservatives to rule in this proposed southern nation.
I'm not expecting perfection, but I wouldn't endorse a return to a medieval mentality.
States rights are fine, but I do support some national laws to keep states from abusing what they perceive to be second-class citizens, in this case non-Christians.
I don't think you'd have that in your southern nation.
"think the reason the right hasn't pursued theocracy is because it's being checked by the left."
Then you are ignoring the whole of US History prior to 1900.
If in all the world, you can name one... just one... Christian country where it is illegal to practice some other religion... then I will consider your point more thoroughly.
But you can't. Because Christians, unlike every other religion, value religious freedom and free will.
Will Christian values rule the day? Of course they will. What's wrong with that? 80% of the country describes themselves as Christian! And that's including the yankees! In the South its closer to 90%!
But that doesn't mean that the Church would rule the country. We're not gonna have witch-trials man... Not because we like witches... but because we don't trust the government with that kind of power.
You want to enforce "niceness" darlin'. It ain't gonna happen in a society with limited government.
There will be discrimination. It will happen, because the Government won't have the authority to stop it.
That shouldn't bother you that much though... because all the power in the world hasn't stopped it yet... so if we're gonna have discrimination, we may as well have the low taxes too.
I'm as southern as you, but I'm more progressive.
Danger! Danger! Disregard anything Morgan says!
Come on Morgan, haven't you heard that the new codeword for Socialist/Communist/panderer to the poor/hater of the rich/oppressor of the masses/UN lover is progressive? And I would think that anyone that labels themselves as such should know better. Also, anyone that labels themselves as being progressive in any fashion should be promptly tuned out and disregarded.
I hear that that professor Churchill is progressive...
Nate, I don't believe that. I think the reason the right hasn't pursued theocracy is because it's being checked by the left.
Conviently ignoring that many of the most "theocratic" (read big gov't) presidents we've had have come from the left.
As to the Universities. Most universities in the world were founded by Christians.
"medieval mentality"
Please define this. Then take a closer look at what medieval times were actually like.
Hey medieval times sounds pretty good: people could own their land, you had the ability and the right to defend yourself, scumbags were locked up in festering prisons, you paid taxes but definitely not >50% of your income, and you could eat big turkey legs and ask your wench to bring more ale (had to put that in there).
I know someone (probably Morgan) is going to bring up the whole classes thing and serfs vs. rich lords, so go ahead. But at least they all knew where they stood.
And the French claim to be progressive, as do the other European and world socialists, but yet it is still the dynamism of the economic structure in the US - intellectually defended by the Right - that enables you to have the sort of technology, invention, and innovation that puts you light years ahead of your nearest competitors. The comparisons of how advanced America is to the rest of the world is obvious for anyone to see. Now that's progression.
Those on the Left in America are actually for stopping progress, and winding the clock back a few centuries.
grip - not to rain on your parade, but the even at the top of the heap the conditions were pretty bad - no indoor plumbing, no regular bathing, no medical care, no dental care (think MAJOR halitosis) and no girls in bikinis!
WOW!!! I'm a tin foil hat wearing, black helicopter looking out for' paranoid. Man, Morgan, you sure read a lot into my post. I am now offering for sale my Great Books of the Western World and Harvard Classics. Oh, and my Greek and Latin books. I'll just sit around reading my Bible and sticking my finger in my ass like a masturbating chimp.
Morgan, dear, I am not hostile to education or academia. But it is interesting that children have to be 'inoculated' against what is going on in the universities, isn't it? I commend those parents that have done so.
I spent years in the restaraunt business around homosexuals. I don't have a problem with them, nor would I enforce those sodomy laws either. I am a libertarian. What they do in their house is none of my business. The only problem I have had with homos were the one's who hit on me. I have a FABULOUS ass, just ask my wife and the black women I used to work with.
If I were president my first order of business would be to abolish most federal agencies(including public funding of all schools, the states can handle that) and my second order of business would be to resign. I have no interest in temporal power.
"Medieval mentality' Man, hunny bunny, read some books about the so-called "Dark Ages'(a modern invention by the way). The Middle Ages were far more free than these times are. You have no idea what was going on in the Middle Ages.
Spacebunny; There was an article on lew rockwell a few weeks ago about a study done in Glasgow, Scotland. Apparently Glaswegians ate better in 1405 than they do now. Almost no dental decay except normal wear and tear, healthier skeletal development. If we could apply medieval liberties with today's knowledge we might actually have a much better, freer life.
JohnR - I wasn't talking about the liberties aspect of the age, but the drafty awful living conditions. I have no trouble believing the health aspect, but also consider that life expectancy was much shorter, so wear and tear on bones/teeth was considerably less. That being said, the invention and common(over) usage of refined sugar (my personal drug of choice) probably has much to do with our current state of health.
I think the Northern states should unite with Canada.
Amen CL.
I'm just trying to think of what the South would have if we split right now:
The bulk of America's military hardware and bases.
Many nuclear weapons and power plants.
The entire Space Program, except for a landing strip.
Texan oil.
Half of America's manufacturing capability. Then, with the South's laissez-faire attitude, the rest of Ameerica's manufacturing capability would follow.
The South couldn't out-China China, but as a separate country, we'd still end up #1 without the encumbrance of Northern racial guilt and other BS.
CL: I think most northern States are too conservative for most of Canada.
Incidentally, Nate, you mind if Alberta joins your Southern Confederacy? I damn sure we'd fit right in.
Gov't. the size of a homeowners assoc. is the right size for me. I hate big gov't. and have been an advocate of overthrowing ours for the last 25 years. Our fed. gov't. only has the powers outlined in the constitution, period! The other powers belong to the states and the people residing therein. The only people who believe as I do reside in North Ga.(relatives) and many in North and South Carolina.(relatives)
It seems that Morgan is making a lot of assumptions without really knowing the truth.
Finding truth, any truth, is not easy. So many lies out there, most of them very very old.
She has a lot of catching up to do. Some history reading maybe,
Start with the Bible. Read the old testament with an eye on governments.
You may not like to hear it but the best bull shit detector is the Bible. The word of God is the only true standard with which a human can judge truth from lie.
OK
I expected to come over here and find some substantial articles from JohnR. But the comment about his fine ass made me laugh so hard I can't possibly reply at the moment, especially not with the effects of a frosty adult beverage in my system.
JohnR, I promise, I will reply tomorrow.
Until then, here's a thought: As a regular viewer of Animal Planet, I have it on good authority that chimps don't masturbate by sticking their thumbs up their ass. They spank the monkey like every other primate.
Thank God for opposable thumbs, huh?
You don't have a single bad joke to add?
I am depressed.
OK. Check your bad joke file. Just remember, if it grosses you out, it's because I'm still trying to pay you back for making me blush last week.
Morgan: I meant while I was masturbating. Chimps don't have prostates? Well...I learn something every day don't I?
By the way, I did not say I have a fine ass, I said it was FABULOUS!!!
So you do stick your finger up there? Wow...you are dedicated.
OK, you have made me laugh way too hard. I promise I will try to formulate a serious answer tomorrow. For now, though. Good night.
Morgan: LOL!! I thought only ladies had conniption fits...aren't they called the vapors also?
Nate: could you answer this question since now Morgan has accused me of being a Yankee. I was born and raised in the Kansas City area, on the Kansas side. Now my understanding of Yankeeness from reading you leads me to believe that I am not. I thought it was a New England thing. Is there a simple test that would prove whether or not I have Yankee tendencies? I do support the Southern position on the War of Northern Agression/Southern Succession.
Hmm, I am a Yankee yet I despise large intrusive federal government.
Now that is a conundrum.
JohnR mistypes "War of Northern Agression/Southern Succession."
Alas, it wasn't a succession but secession or independence. Don't we all (or at least some of us) wish... (and I'm not even a Southerner -- a pilgrim living in Texas, for now)
hrm... ya know john... I apologize buddy.. but you Jayhawkers (a term which actually means "thief" in other parts of the country) were totally with the north. See Quantrell's Raiders for details.
No apologies necessary but would it help if you knew that my mother's side of the family came from Missouri. They were all farmer's.
And isn't Southerness more of a state of mind than location. My wife has been called a 'good yankee' by 4th and 5th generation Texans(auto dealers she deals with) but a guy who was born 30 miles north of her in Lawrence, KS was despised by the auto dealers as a 'damn yankee.'
Sorry DannyHSDad, I meant seccession.
JohnR, as to your first point, I never said you were not intelligent. I never said you were not well-read. I'm sure those Harvard classics have been well perused.
That said, one can be intelligent and paranoid at the same time.
Which brings me to my next point:
You said: "Morgan, dear, I am not hostile to education or academia. But it is interesting that children have to be 'inoculated' against what is going on in the universities, isn't it? I commend those parents that have done so."
Ahh, but you're assuming that "what is going on in universtities" is some nefarious attempt to turn your kids to the dark side of liberalism. And true, there are some professors who may. But that's not even what I had in mind.
If a young person goes to a university - a good university - they are going to hopefully be exposed to a more diverse group of folk than they're used to down on the farm. They'll be dealing with new classmates from such far-flung places as *gasp* up north who will likely have different backgrounds, values and viewpoints. Their professors will be only part of the equation.
Kids will be bombarded by new ideas. But that's what life is supposed to be like for kids. By the time they go to college, they're young adults. It's time for parents to start letting them make their own way and form their own opinions. As parents, we've laid the foundation. The question is, do we trust that it's strong enough if they're exposed to viewpoints that are different than what they're used to? Only you can answer that.
Let's see....your fabulous ass and masturbating chimps...we covered those topics last night.
That leaves your assertion that I don't know what went on in the Middle Ages. You are so totally wrong. My favorite movie is Excaliber. Don't make me use the charm of making on you.
Well, if Morgan gets all her information about history from movies, it certainly explains a lot about her grasp of it.
Spacebunny...it was a joke. Why the hostility?
I kind of thought the whole "charm of making" comment would have tipped you off, but I see that I'm going to have to start adding a disclaimer for the sarcasm-impaired.
Morgan: Didn't like Excalibur. King Arthur as a hot tempered, slightly stupid king didn't work for me. You do know that the Arthur legend dates from the fall of the Roman Empire, not some medieval world of the 13th cent. I believe he was a 6th century king, but you know that.
Anyway, yes young adults will be exposed to many OPINIONS in college, not neccesarily any new ideas. Do you really believe that gender is a social construct? Most of these ideas a child could have been exposed to long before college. I do let my children play with the PS kids but I deprogram them after exposure. My sons have black friends, children of lesbians friends, and bratty friends whose parents need to discipline them(before I do!!!) A child could easily have been given a graduate level education before he ever got to college. College is now mostly a finishing school for the corporate world. My wife works a corporate job that any intelligent person could easily do w/o a college degree. One of her co-workers was just promoted and told she needs to work on her degree. For what?!?! She has been with the company for 22 years and can retire in 8. And how would you feel if your child had the thorough grounding you gave them and then rejected everything you taught them. That is a very delicate balancing act. You are also arguing for an institution that believes replacing the family with the State is a good thing. They have taken the Danegeld.
Most university profs. have a very narrow specialized area of study and the associate profs and grad students teach the intro courses. Can you imagine growing up and going to school to get a PhD. in the 17 cent herring industry in Denmark so you can teach a graduate seminar on The Herring Industry in Denmark from 1650-1699 and Herring Imagry in Shakespeare's Comedies. I bet these guys are a ball at cocktail parties!!!
I don't believe that college is really anymore about education than creating the New Soviet Man American style. The school is now like the church, it likes to have it's ear tickled with new ideas. It may have worked beautifully for 2000 years but we modern need something new. Humanism has taken over the school and some of the church and I, personally believe that man is not the measure of all things despite what Voltaire and Hegel think.
Well I'm rambling now, I really need to write stuff down but...
PS I borrowed the Herring PhD. thing but I can't remember where I heard it and my wife was thoroughly disgusted by your joke but laughed anyway. And you are wrong about the Medieval world.
Sorry Morgan. I was actually thinking after the fact that it must have been a joke.
OK, Spacebunny. Not a problem. And no hard feelings whatsoever.
JohnR..I want to address your mistrust of the educational system but don't have time, as work demands my attention.
Just note until then that I'm one of the paradoxes: a homeschooler who also supports and appreciates academia, both private and public.
Morgan; That is not a paradox but an inconsistancy.
And I support scholarship and education but MOST of what goes on in academia in neither.
... is neither...
Morgan: I would suggest reading some of the following books:
The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto
The Messianic Character of American Education by R.J. Rushdoony
Inside American Education by Thomas Sowell
ProfScam by I don't Remember his name.
The JTG book can be read on www.johntayorgatto.com for free. The chapters are short and to the point.
JohnR,
I was talking to my mother-in-law today about how the four-year degree is the "new" high school diploma in terms of requirement for many entry level positions.
It's kind of funny, in a way, or sad depending on how you look at it, because most people who enter the work force are really not prepared for their employment and end up learning their skills on the job.
That I'll grant you.
But I don't think I'd go so far to say that schools offer little if any academic merit.
My sister is a biology major. Her minor is environmental studies. Both were required for her to get the job she loves.
My seven-year-old daughter swears she wants to be a biologist and study wolves when she grows up. Or be a veterinarian. If she does (and I'm allowing she'll change her mind often) she'll likely need a college degree as a pre-requisite to work with any wildlife projects or foundations. She'll definitely need a college degree to be a veterinarian.
We homeschool now and plan to continue. But in NC there's a program that allows students in high school to begin taking college courses before they graduate. If our daughter does well as we expect her to, we certainly will encourage her to enroll.
I found this quote interesting:
"It may have worked beautifully for 2000 years but we modern need something new. Humanism has taken over the school and some of the church and I, personally believe that man is not the measure of all things despite what Voltaire and Hegel think. "
I may be wrong, but are you one of those parents who consider schools and universities a spiritual wasteland?
I'm not a religious homeschooler, although I know plenty of them.
I don't share the Christian homeschoolers disdain for and fear of schools.
Sure, they are lacking in many ways and yes, universities offer silly and senseless course. But the few examples you cited are not the sum total of what people can and do glean from schools.
Now, I'm rambling.
JohnR,
Let me clarify something before you accuse me of a contradiction. When I say that a four-year degree doesn't prepare people for the work force, I'm talking about a liberal arts degree.
More specialized degrees, do, I believe prepare people.
Morgan: I agree about the specialized degrees, medicine, engineering, biology etc. The hard sciences.
Morgan: Most of what can or be gleaned can be done on one's own. Why do we/you/I need a school to read great literature or teach ourselves a new language?
Maybe we just have a difference of opinion about 'education' is exactly. I think it to help the individual live the best life possible, not get a great job.
And, no, I don't think that all universities are spiritual wastelands. But academia does itself no service by pulling silly stunts like failing a young women's paper for mentioning God. Is the university there to explore ideas or ridicule people's beliefs? If they claim they respect all viewpoints then they have to respect Christians also and not get there panties in a wad about someone who does not agree with them. The underlying hostility to Christianity goes back centuries not just a few decades.
As an aside, when I attended KU in the early mid 80s, I would look up my profs PhD. subject in the school catalog and the when studying for tests concentrate on their specialization. The tests were invariably weighted toward their speciality. Made studying easier.
Sorry about the run-on sentence.
I know we disagree on this but I do enjoy the give and take. You're a smart and spirited lady. You can't agree with everybody all the time, it gets boring. Even Bane posted at his sight that if we all got together we'd forget the arguing and probably have a great time. I agree.
Since your a writer do you think I use the passive voice too much?
...their panties...
I've worked to steer my kids away from the conventional workforce, JohnR. Both my husband and I are very non-traditional people.
Three years as a staff writer on a daily paper made me realize why I loved freelancing. I like my freedom far too much to have someone else dictate my schedule.
My advice to all my kids is this: When you choose a career, choose something portable. If you get stuck in a cubicle somewhere you'll wither up and die in no time.
We don't track our kids towards a university and professional career, but we give them the option to make their own choices.
I agree that there are some loopy things that go on in universities, but I think kids today are savvy enough to realize if someone is feeding them a load of malarkey.
People are out there screaming that kids are being indoctrinated, but when professors pull this crazy BS, how do you think it comes to light? The students! These young peeople aren't mindless robots. They're the ones exposing some of these nutjob professors. We should give students more credit.
I do enjoy the debates, even when we disagree. I have friends who only contribute to blogs where everyone always agrees. Preaching to the choir is no fun. You guys are bawdy, opinionated and smart and I have a great time crossing swords with you.
And I think your writing is just fine.
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