Nate - dozens of bad media reports and one personal anecdote of yours does not make your case.
Nate:
*stands and applauds*
I agree completely. Down to the last word. I've been wondering where 'merica went, too--let me know when you find it.
Crystal, the hundreds of bad media reports and the hundreds of personal anecdotes that I've read and heard, along with my own personal experiences might not make a case, but it sure is a heck of a big pile of evidence.
Nate's not standing on dozens stories about LEOs unjustifiably killing someone without penalty as proof of his point, he's using them as supporting evidence of his point, with his personal experience as further support.
It's called an "editorial".
I'm too tired to read this will do tomorrow. My dislexic brain cannot handle anymore tonight. Looking forward too it.
Crystal,
Google it yourself kiddo. These cases are all documented via local and regional media. Seirra Times just happened to collect them.
And don't diss Sierra Times around here. J.J. Johnson is the Man!
and wait... if dozens of cases, including 7 cases within my local area in the last year don't make the case... how many instances would make it?
I couldn't agree more. I can't even watch the show "Cops" without getting mad--or those cop shows where they dress up the lady cop as a prostitute(an ugly one, too) to bait a man..ugh! Another fact that really infuriates me, is how so many of them(if not all), believe that they, and only they,should have the right to carry a gun.
I do believe cops have become the standing army we were warned so much about.
I agree, especially about Cops. It makes it look like the cops are always right, every time they pull someone over for a broken tail light the person always has drugs on them. What a coincidence. Why don't they show the people who JUST have a broken light. I guess that would be bad for ratings, or the "cops are always right" image.
And then there was one segment where a woman called the cops on her husband cause they were having a domestic dispute, and he was throwing stuff around the house. She never said he threw anything at her, and he said he broke a lamp on the floor because he was mad. The cops ended up arresting him anyway because "It's against the law to damage your own property in the heat of an argument." WTF? Since when?
And, I've been thinking about leaving too, but to where?
Nate,
Please let me know when you find it - I've been looking as well, but with no luck. My bags are packed, but no place to go ... yet.
And Orange, when you add in FBI, CIA, ATF, HS, I think you're right.
OT, but I was searching Google images for homeland security agent and came across this. Ain't it the truth.
ROFL
Nate's right.
"To protect and to serve" as a slogan is a joke because they don't do either. Don't hand me the anecdotal "one helped me change a tire" crap because a cop is always looking for an excuse to bust someone.
New Orleans after Katrina should alert anyone and everyone to whose side police are on when the chips are down. They'll take your weapons or anything else they can use for themselves. Protect and serve? They're there just to "clean" the house and make a report.
I doubt the world will ever see another (North) America. Believe me, leaving is constantly on my mind, but I am also a realist. There are places you can go where there will be more de facto freedom, but the cops are no better. In most of Latin America, you'll be lucky if civilian killings by police even get reported, much less prosecuted.
At least in those countries the cops are far less organised and efficient, and usually respond quite well to bribes, or as they like to refer to them: "on-site fines". (Learn to say "¿Puedo pagar la multa ahora?")
Ry
Cops that respond well to bribes are a bonus to me. Money I have. Its freedom I want.
Agreed on that point, Nate.
Speaking of moving out, I at least have started the move out of South Florida. We are heading to a place out in the country just south of Ocala. It's like being in a different world. There we have more than an acre, plenty of room for my toolshed/workshop, a vegetable garden, a couple dogs, the works. Even better: great neighbors.
I.can't.wait.
rycamor,
Go a little farther north and you'll run across the part of FL that's still mostly Southern. I miss it.
Cops 'protect' society and serve the orderes of the courts. They don't have any consideration to serve the individual.
Even if a good guy gets through the system, there is the atmosphere of "we vs. they" that is prevalent in the department that he soon adopts under peer pressure and his isolated perspective.
I had a neighbor who is a cop and is a good guy. Alone he was a great friend. With other cops, he was different.
Never watch football with a room full of cops. They'll ruin it for you while showing their mentality. Every play they will see dozens of 'offenses' holding, clipping, pass interference (on running plays), roughing the passer, etc. I'm sure they all looked at me and saw dozens of arrestable offenses I was commiting by just watching football with them.
I kinda think that is how they see us civilians, guilty of all sorts of things.
Ya know that damn song
Bad Boys Bad Boys (cops song)....
The bad boys are not the perps, they are the COPS!
Snowdog,
I wouldn't mind going farther north, but the deal was too good to pass up.
Actually, this area (near the town of Summerfield), is kinda like an oasis of Southron-ness in the middle of Florida. I don't know how long that will last, but then again, I don't know how long I will last in the USA anyway.
Crystal:
Look at "Related stories" in this neato searchable database of police shootings in Houston:
"One in three police shootings involve unarmed people"
"Review finds officers seldom punished in shootings"
Google "Elio Carrion"
He was an Air Force Airman on leave from Iraq. Carrion is seen in a video tape, on his stomach after being pulled over from a "chase," as a sheriff's deputy tells him to "get up, get the fuck up!"
Carrion starts to do so, slowly, and then the deputy starts blasting away. For no reason at all.
He has no idea he's on tape.
If there hadn't been one, no one would know about this. Carrion took, I think, at least three bullets to the torso.
Fuck cops.
You probably already know, but here is a report by the Cato institute about the militarization of the police force as well as the increase in "no knock" warrants.
Download the PDF.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display....php?
pub_id=6476
Kill...Kill...Kill
Them stupid animals out there doing dumb things and obeying my comands. Kill...Kill...Kill... I am the man and I will shoot me for any disobedience. You want to back talk me? Kill...Kill...Kill
I am my master! I have a badge and a gun.
I spend time with some cops. I have found that they have a very paranoid outlook on people they do not know.
Probably because they only deal with other cops and perps all day long.
But unless they get to know you over time you seem to be placed on some kind of level just above perp. At least until you can eventually earn their trust. But be careful, loose it and be a perp forever.
Dorks is what they are. And one day...
I Had a guy running for JP who was a reserve policeman with the Fort worth police come by my aprtment a few years back. He was explaining to me why he was qualified while I was standing there being polite with the door open.
The guy couldn't look me in the eye but for a few seconds then would scan what was in my apartment.
When he was done I said, Old habits are hard to break arn't they? He was puzzled and I told him he seemed more interested in the contents of my aprment than selling himself. I went on to say, there is nothing in there but a mess and you just waisted your time.
I have a few posts of this on my blog as well. One in particular was a handcuffed man being executed by a cop. Other fun examples include young handcuffed girls being tazered etc.
I dont have time to lpook up the examples just yet but IIRC the girl was in Arizona.
You say a world without cops is anarchy. I say when the law doesn't apply to cops... you already have anarchy.
I certainly agree w/ this.
The only problem is: if you're going to leave, where will you go that's better? Everything's a trade-off, & I know of no other place that offers more well-rounded freedom. I realize that's a pathetic testimony to the human race, but there it is, nevertheless.
Nate, now that you're an aviator, just remember who the cops of the air are- the FAA. The biggest lie in aviation: "I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to help!"
Here is the cop executing the prisoner. The real kicker on this one is that the public was calling for clemency for the cop
Here is a 13 y/o girl, handcuffed and apparently already in the patrol car getting tasered
Here is an 8 month pregnant woman from Seattle who was tasered 3-5 times (three is the official number but her burns are from 5 different taserings.) Her crime? Not signing the speeding ticket she was given. Legal requirement to sign a ticket? Nill.
See, it doesnt need to be lethal force used upon the citizenry. In fact those supposedly non-lethal tasers are a favorite of many forces now. Colorado Springs uses theirs excessively. There was a report on it in the C/S Gazette some months back. Compared to Albequerue NM (same size, simliar crime rate) C/S officers use their tasers 2-3 times as often. But the County officers use their very rarely despite operating in the exact same city. (wonder if that has anything to do with the Sheriff being elected)
"I love America. Someone tell me where the hell it went."
You might enjoy reading this.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/
art...lveira99lw.html
We're all safer aren't we? We got BATFE, DEA, FBI, US Marshals, INS, SS, DNR, TSA, Air Marshals, FAA, Border Patrol, US Parks Police, EPA, State Police, City Police, County Sheriffs, US Mint Police, Coast Guard, .... I'm sure I missed a couple. NYPD is one WW2 infantry division, CPD, LAPD, and Philly PD make up another....POLICE STATE?! WHERE? Oh gotta go I think I hear a knock on the door.......
Whatever.
Arguing with this crowd on the problem is like arguing with the bloody wind.
Have fun.
Crystal,
no one is looking for an arguement so much as a stated opinion.
I asked a fairly straight forward question. How much evidence do you want?
You hit it on the head when you spoke about the motivation - bullies and the bullied.
Now, my dad never said much to me of any depth when i was young, but one thing i'll always remember him saying is "cops have a need" - that's what we're talking about here, really.
the problem is they use "the law" and guns and force to work out their "need" to be somebody.
Just like gubmint, "Service" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
It's almost as if we pay them to work out their life problems behind a badge and gun.
Not to mention the corruption and law breaking you can get away with when you're "on the right side of the law"
the system sucks
Nate,
It's like the wind is blowing off the ocean into Crystal's face and she's standing there saying the wind is not blowing. I don't think it's us as much as the facts that upset her.
Nate, according to the bureau of justice statistics, there were about 800 000 full time sworn law enforcement officers in the US in 2000.
dozens of examples, or hundreds of anecdotes is not enough to make a case that all (or even most) law enforcement personnel are pricks high on their power.
Generally, there are two kinds of people who enter in law enforcement.
1. The pricks
2. The guys who care about their community and want to help make it safer.
I agree with you that the system is corrupt. I hate it. The only people who manage to survive it are the bastards and the good guys who continue to endure the stress.
Sometimes, these guys reach a breaking point and quit the whole thing. Other times, they manage to stick with it for a long time. It just depends on how much you are willing to endure.
Anyways, I wasn't in a great mood last night but I shouldn't have been so short.
"he's using them as supporting evidence of his point, with his personal experience as further support."
So, I suppose that means that the only choices I have is to either join the ten minute 'hate' session, or to keep my trap shut.
Good to know.
Rycamor, cute condescension, but according to that same website there is a low sample size to make any solid comparison.
I would also need more information about the circumstances of the shooting, etc before making a judgment call, anyways.
Obvious Questions:
1. Did the officer perceive danger to himself or others?
2. What made him perceive it?
3. Is this adequate justification for shooting?
4. To what extent is the larger bureaucracy partially responsible for the shooting(i.e. are the officers on-duty too long, etc)?
Unfortunately, there is hardly any information here for me to make a judgment, oh, but there is some here in the summary portion..let's see:
Here's one example of a shooting that does illuminate the situation.
"Officer followed reported stolen vehicle into service station. Ordered driver exiting station to stop. Driver ran to car and reached under seat. Officer fired several times, critically wounding driver."
I can understand why he shot him.
Oh, this is cute - apparently, a car isn't considered a 'weapon' to whoever put this chart together:
"Officers spotted a man trying to break into a vehicle on a parking lot. Suspect attempted to run over officers to escape and both officers fired, one shot hitting the driver who was arrested and charged."
Another incident:
"Officer stopped vehicle after report of man trying to pick up teen girls. Suspect began to struggle with officer, knocking him down. Officer pulled gun and shot suspect twice, killing him."
Although I think the officer should have used a baton, I can see how this can happen to an innocent officer, especially when he isn't trained properly to deal with such incidents.
Another incident was when an officer fired to end a high speed chase.
Another example:
"Officer stopped a vehicle and driver exited vehicle after being told to remain inside car. Officer then told the driver to get back into the car, but instead, the driver reached under the front seat. That's when the officer fired once."
Yep, see how that can happen. In fact, there seems to be a pattern of officers misinterpreting a driver reaching under the front seat. If I had to deal with criminals every day - druggies, murderers, etc, then I too might get nervous by somebody doing that, especially if they quickly reach under the front seat after I - as the chick in authority -tell them to do something else.
Another time, the officer was threatened by a drug dealer who claimed that he had a gun in his pocket and was going to shoot him. (The 'gun' turned out to be a piece of wood).
Oh, here's another incident of a guy using his car as a weapon, but he's still considered 'unarmed'. Apparently, they only fired to stop the car.
Another time a guy charged at an officer in a threatening manner, refusing to show his hands, and he was shot. Again, I can understand that.
Well, there is one incident in the 'summary' which looks a little shady, but so far that is the only one that substantiates your case, rycamor.
Oh, check that, two.
Yeah, rycamor..what an excellent website. Thank you for further validating my point.
"It's like the wind is blowing off the ocean into Crystal's face and she's standing there saying the wind is not blowing."
I think that is the first time I've laughed since last night.
"the only choices I have is to either join the ten minute 'hate' session, or to keep my trap shut."
the system is made up of individuals who either participate or put up with the corruption (enablers), thus making them part of the problem and not the solution.
looks like you have helped us extend the 10 minute hate session, according to your own words:
"I agree with you that the system is corrupt. I hate it."
and Nate, congrats on the Vols' start; anyone who beats a California team or New York team gets my compliments.
put up with it? Well, bw, that depends on how high up they are in the power structure of the organization, and what kind of retaliation they can expect from the others. Think of it like an adult version of schoolyard bullying. It's easy for you to make a judgment when you aren't in their shoes.
Be that as it may - you'll find many instances when police officers 'ratted' on their colleagues if you do a good search in reputable websites.
"looks like you have helped us extend the 10 minute hate session, according to your own words:
"I agree with you that the system is corrupt. I hate it.""
Hey dude, my hatred isn't against the people, but the system itself.
System made of people, Crystal, enablers and perpetrators. Equally guilty. I was once a cog in a giant evil machine, and as soon as I had witnessed enough to conclude I was supporting evil through a nominally "good" agency, I had to leave immediately regardless of what kind of situation that put me in or how much of my life and effort I had wasted there. I say I "had" to leave because morally I could no longer serve that beast.
Therefore, I, for one, do not speak ignorantly or flippantly when I say that cops, good or bad by your estimation, are perpetrators of a cancerous tyranny and deserve no quarter when push comes to shove.
For a more rigorous approach to this issue, see this link:
Are Cops Constitutional?
http://www.constitution.org/lrev.../roots/
cops.htm
ABSTRACT
Police work is often lionized by jurists and scholars who claim to employ "textualist" and "originalist" methods of constitutional interpretation. Yet professional police were unknown to the United States in 1789, and first appeared in America almost a half-century after the Constitution's ratification. The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could be called upon when necessary. This article marshals extensive historical and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their foremost principles.
Hazim, were you ordered to do anything evil, or did you just feel uncomfortable with the things other people were doing and didn't know how to stop it?
To those who think cops are all right guys.....
Pick one at random, and question his authority. After you are released from jail, repeat. Continue until you find one willing to explain, sans force, why he is doing what he is doing.
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