One of these challenges was not a lack of belief... but the belief and worship of other gods.
Now this isn't a problem we westerns deal with much.
Not at all true. Westerners have a huge problem with following false gods. We just don't call them Gods. But follow them we do, the gods of Materialism, of political parties, of economic systems, of Hollywood celebrities, of sports teams. Just because we don't call them "God" doesn't mean that we don't worship them.
Pagan. I hope Mom doesn't see this.
This idea is not that far-fetched, it's what I thought at first, but I think it has a few large holes. Here's the data points I used.
Important Data Points
1) There is essentially zero discussion of individual, eternal salvation in the Old Testament. This is pretty much a New Testament idea.
2) Salvation, in the Old Testament, is considered to be national, not individual. There are many passages in the New Testament that also support national salvation in addition to personal, eternal salvation.
3) It's very clear, in both the New and Old testament, that nations are judged. Individual judgment is not often mentioned, and some of those passages are ambiguous, yet is is clear that some form of individual judgment occurs and this has an eternal component.
4) (Most Important Point) Things changed radically between the Old and New Testament, in both the spiritual realm as well as the physical realm.
In Old Testament times, it's true that different people worshiped other gods, and these were legit gods (this is pretty well documented in Scripture). I don't think that's the case now. It's my opinion that back in the day nations were given over to spirits based on how obedient the population was to God's commands. Other nations were then and are now used to judge disobedient nations.
"to insure that Christianity is a Church of eunuchs"
..yes, sheep, and to fill those business coffers "for Jesus"
I agree, it's probably *something* like you have posted. "The things which the Gentiles sacrafice, they sacrafice to devils"(icor10:30)...those who worship idols are seemingly joined "to the army of heaven" {stratos - the fallen angel army}Acts 7:41-42 Jerusalem Bible....Psalm 96:5 "all the gods of the nations are idols" {elilim, daimonia}, etc..
On Bill's points:
1) I agree completely... assuming by "pretty much zero" you're counting Solomon as the reason for not applying absolute zero. Ecc, especially the end, makes it clear that Solomon, while ignorant of the specifics, had some idea that there was much more coming than what was assumed at the time.
2) Agreed. Then judgement was seen as collective. How this is in disagreement with my writing though.
3) Again.. agreed. Judgement is collective. Seems to be the same as point 2. I agree that somehow we are judged collectively and individually.
4) Its odd that you say so much has changed... and yet Satan's role is the same in Revalation as it is in Job. I don't disagree that much has changed... but I disagree with the process. You seem to think that a lightswitch was flipped. I believe a process was started. The process is the reclaiming of the world for God. We are agents of that process. The ancients saw a connection between the heavens and the earth.. stuggles on earth were reflective of struggles in heaven. I do as well. A good example would be Manifest Destiny... the reclaiming of North America for God.
Pagan JAC?
The idea that Christianity is monothesistic is almost inexcusibly stupid.
Perhaps more clever and more powerful than most... but nothing before the might of God.
The idea that Christianity is monothesistic is almost inexcusibly stupid.
Is this a contradiction? Are these other gods created or eternal? If they are nothing before the might of God are they really [G]ods, or just lesser beings that people mistakenly worship like Michael Vick. I just wonder if we have the same ideas as to what they actually are, we just classify them differently.
Giraffe,
The Bible calls them powers or principalities. Pay particular attention to capitalization. Many gods... 1 God.
monotheistic religions teach that there is 1 god... no others exist at all. Christianity teaches that there are man gods... but only 1 supreme creator God.
the gods of Materialism, of political parties, of economic systems, of Hollywood celebrities...
I can't stand that shit. Not even close.
Nobody today is involved in an organized system whereby they take their children and drown them to entice Paris Hilton to visit. In times past there were real, actual supernatural gods - and people worshiped them. These gods preformed miracles, these gods had real power - the people were not duped. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is more powerful, and wants what's best for us, and He is who we should worship.
You seem to think that a lightswitch was flipped. I believe a process was started. The process is the reclaiming of the world for God. We are agents of that process.
Aside from the fact that I edited my points into incoherence... I'd largely agree with your above statement. A light switch was flipped, and it started a process.
The epochs of history are divided into several eras; Innocence (pre-fall Eden), Conscience (Eden to Noah), Law (Noah to Christ), Grace (Christ until the end), Kingdom (the end state). The Law era is sometimes subdivided, but not usually. Most Christians deal with the specific divide between Law and Grace, Scripture is divided thusly; Old Covenant and New Covenant (Testament means Covenant).
During the Conscience and Law eras, Satan essentially ruled the world. He was bound at the start of Christ's reign (between 30 and 70 AD), and continues to be bound. Satan will be completely defeated at the last battle, which will consummate the Kingdom. There is some debate among Christians about the Kingdom business, some people feel that happens at individual death, some think it happens temporally, I fall in the latter category but I think the other guys have some good points, I wouldn't dismiss their arguments out-of-hand (the dispys, on the other hand, I think are nuts).
I am in complete agreement with your timeline Bill. I think we may differ in the specifics of what is happening during the Grace stage.
Nobody today is involved in an organized system whereby they take their children and drown them to entice Paris Hilton to visit.
No, they just dress them up like tarts so they look like Paris Hilton.
A man's God is whatever captures his highest interest. -- Paul Tillich
People don't "worship" power and money and whatnot, that's just pop-psych babble that today's preachers spew because they don't understand Scripture and are trying to make it "relevant". People had the same issues with greed and envy 5,000 years ago, and that was NOT what God was taking about when he said "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me".
Preach Bill. Talk at thing. Nothing is more over used than the money=god metaphor.
The worship aspect is what mono/poly thing turns on. Christianity is mono in that it requires worship of One, while knowing the existence of others/lessers...
I would tend to meld what you AND Larry are saying...there are powers and principalities standing BEHIND those things that make them the attraction they are..."you cannot serve God and mammon" - a competing "god" indeed
The main reasons that modern preachers tie various things to "idolatry" are:
1) It's a way of dodging what happened to Baal and his buddies when Christ came, thus excusing the Church for not exercising dominion over the world.
2) It's a convenient way of preaching against envy and greed without doing actual research into what Scripture says about envy and greed, which is a bit more nuanced.
Its always entertaining to note the differences in what so many assume the bible says on various topics.. and what it actually says. Drinking is among my favorites when it comes to demonstrating this dichotomy
During the Grace Stage the Church is gradually transformed to be perfected, nations that follow God are successful and prosper, nations that abjure God's commands fail, and eventually the whole thing becomes a world living in accordance with God's will.
Its always entertaining to note the differences in what so many assume the bible says on various topics.. and what it actually says. Drinking is among my favorites when it comes to demonstrating this dichotomy
No way, man. Polygamy is much better.
"Nobody today is involved in an organized system whereby they take their children and drown them to entice Paris Hilton to visit. In times past there were real, actual supernatural gods - and people worshiped them. These gods preformed miracles, these gods had real power - the people were not duped.
Bill | 12.28.07 - 11:24 am"
Considering the weak-sauce brand of Christianity practiced nowadays, it shouldn't be surprising that the worldly equivalent of the name it and claim it brand of Jesus club is a career woman getting an abortion so she can continue being "successful" as the world defines it.
Pagan JAC?
The idea that Christianity is monothesistic is almost inexcusibly stupid.
Nate | Homepage | 12.28.07 - 10:19 am
Like I said, pagan; "Pagan."
Personally.... I'm wondering about the adverb "almost".
I would think that most preachers get the idea that greed, etc is equivalent to worship of false gods from the Apostle Paul who said,
"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry." (Colossians 3:5)
So greed is equated with idolatry. Idolatry being worship of an idol. Not too big of a stretch.
clint
Clint,
You make my point exactly - modern Christians do not understand this issue. Idolatry and worshiping other gods are two entirely different things.
So greed is equated with idolatry. Idolatry being worship of an idol. Not too big of a stretch.
Worship of an idol is NOT the same thing as the worship of another god. The idea Paul expressed is in the Old Testament as well;
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Idols ARE NOT GODS, an idol is a false god. Other gods ARE NOT IDOLS because they are not false.
OK, I get your point now. I didn't see you making the distinction between idolatry and worship of other gods. Gotcha.
When you read the Old Testament, it's pointed out many times that God chose Israel as "His people", and other nations had other gods - and God was fine with that, He didn't expect to be worshiped by other nations. For example, Assyrians did not stop worshiping Ashur and start worshiping Yahweh and remain Assyrians. To the little extent that they converted, they became Jewish. Back a few thousand years ago, every nation had their own god(s) - this is simply a historical fact. When Christ came, He changed that. Suddenly the old gods no longer had power, Christianity became the only religion that had a powerful God, and supernatural events essentially stopped (other than healing) because there is no longer any need for God to demonstrate His power or indicate His will, He's obviously defeated everyone else and caused the Bible to be written. But the biggest shift, and this took until about the 1600's to really understand, was that gods were no longer tied to nations. This is a huge issue, and a great many Christians still don't understand what this means. There are still Christians that claim that Satan is alive and well and in charge of the earth, there are Christians that look for spectacular miracles, and on the flip side, there are Christians that think God's laws are not applicable to our society today.
"Like I said, pagan; "Pagan."
JACIII
Brotherly love. Ain't nothing like it.
" Pagan. I hope Mom doesn't see this."
JACIII
Me too.
"OK, I get your point now. I didn't see you making the distinction between idolatry and worship of other gods. Gotcha."
Clint |
Oh shit.
I believe that one of the duties Christians will have is to pass judgement on those principalities and powers who are now influencing us. NOT because we are necessarily more important or of higher perfection, but because as the "interested party", we will have the right and responsibility to pass judgement on them.
Why would we need the first commandment if there aren't other gods? God, the "I am", has a reason for everything.
"OK, I get your point now. I didn't see you making the distinction between idolatry and worship of other gods. Gotcha."
Clint |
Oh shit.
John Mosby
I didn't say I agreed. I just said I understood the point, now.
For example, Judges 16:23 says "Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, "Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.""
But then we read in 1 Samuel 5, "Then they carried the ark into Dagon's temple and set it beside Dagon. 3 When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD! They took Dagon and put him back in his place. 4 But the following morning when they rose, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD! His head and hands had been broken off and were lying on the threshold; only his body remained. 5 That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor any others who enter Dagon's temple at Ashdod step on the threshold."
Obviously, Dagon was an idol, as well as the god of the Philistines.
Dagon was not an idol, they had a little statue of Dagon, but the point is that Dagon was not as powerful as Yahweh. Are you also saying that the Ark was an idol? Just because there is a physical representation of something does not mean that there is no spiritual power there.
Paul writes about this issue in Ephesians 3, this is exactly what Nate and I are saying;
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
Thanks, now I'm feeling guilty for not having finished the Old Testament yet.
Great thread though.
I'm interested why you say that "all of these beings failed", and then go on to say "Why are all of them being worshipped?" Surely if their aim was to be worshiped, then they haven't failed?
Also I'm interested to know what you classify as "bizarre behaviour" - it seems a little bit of a loose description!
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