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Dear God... This is horrible news...
I do not know about you guys but I am praying HARD for everyone there.
I wish I could help somehow.
How is there absolutely no media coverage of this? Can no one get pics or helicopters?
If anyone has found anything, please post!
I am heartsick over this. I'm also wondering, though, if this will sweep formosan termites into new habitats. If so, the wrath of Katrina will be felt for decades in more ways than one would think.
They just showed Lakeview down to City Park Avenue. It looked at that time that Metairie Ridge was stopping the water from going south, but I don't know how old it was or how long that can last.
There is news going on now. WWL's live feed is back on.
As brendan pointed out in his last post, they now have a blog filled with news that they are just getting in.
The posts throughout today have information that brendan has gathered, and in the comments others have gathered.
There is a lot of information coming in and hard to keep track of. The media links on the left have a lot of information you are asking for.
(the local stations are back up and running)
Mid-Lake gage is 5 feet high.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/
u...te_no=073802330
Perhaps all the choppers have been comandeered for rescue ops? That would explain the lack of footage from air. One or two reporters on a chopper means one or two less people rescued from roofs.
This really is shocking news. That's a quote from WWL isn't it? And they shy towards the optimisitc! Can New Orleans really be turned into a lake extension by this? How deep are we talking, the 20ft plus nightmares?
Can't believe it.
11:50 A.M. JP Sheriff asking anyone with a boat to bring it to Sam's Parking lot on Airline to help with evacuations.
I read before the storm hit that the pumping stations all working at once can reduce water levels at 1 inch per hour. And that's if ALL of them are working, AND the levee is fixed. Before the levee is fixed, any pumping is futile, as it would just rush back into the bowl.
Here is the link to the Wiki that is being created:
http://katrinahelp.info/wiki/ind...x.php/
Main_Page
Is Lake Pontchartrain toxic or is that picked up from the city? I don't get it. Anyone?
That's what's happening right now.
Twin spans are out between Slidell and New Orleans.
(2 deaths from people already evacuated trying to get back in. Flood waters rising.)
The I-12 westbound is open if you are trying to leave. They say be very careful and note that the Slidell exit is closed.(flooding)
How deep are we talking, the 20ft plus nightmares?
I would assume so, yes. This is essentially the same phenomenon envisioned in the nightmares, just happening on a slightly different timetable in a slightly different way. The basic physics are presumably the same.
Right now, they are saying the flood waters are toxic. I've heard that it's because of broken gas lines, downed electric lines, may have been broken sewer lines. And a few other reasons.
I'd say, since the pumps are working that if it wasn't before, the lake will be toxic soon.
Thanks for your continuing updates. I linked to several blogs talking about the value of blogs during crises like these, and the information that blogs like yours are getting out amidst the confusion is truly appreciated.
Is Lake Pontchartrain toxic or is that picked up from the city? I don't get it. Anyone?
The latter. All sorts of sewage, industrial chemicals and stuff like that are leaking into the water... not to mention fire ants, I'm sure we'll be hearing about them soon. Read this article, it explains it pretty well.
P.S. Don't forget about the snakes.
This is awful.
Is it confirmed that Lakeview is truly a lake now?
Update:
"Homeland security chief optimistic that 3,000 pound sandbags can close break in levee at 17th Street canal."
Take from that what you will. Its from WWLTV
Frankly, if the water is flowing and taking out the levee, I don't feel optimistic about the sandbags, but then again, I'm no engineer.
Brendan!
It's true that the bowl is filling, but you can't completely fill a chipped bowl. In the worst-case scenario, storm surge would fill the city to the top of the lowest levee height, then the levees would hold the water in. Without a maximal storm surge and with a breached levee, that's not going to happen. So the situation is bad, but it's not worst-case.
Doug
From the live stream: (I wrote what I could and the phone the guy was on was cutting out)
Tim Whitmer at the Jefferson Parish Emergency Center, on the phone.
Parish wide devestation on East Bank.
Water coming over on the New Orleans side.
No water pressure. Trees uprooted broke many water lines.
Widespread flooding on East side.
Major flooding near or on the east bank.
Biggest area of flooding, north of Veterans Boulevard (could have been street?)
Not as bad but still not great south of that area. He named a street but I couldn't catch it.
Both sides that are flooded are beginning to pump down. No idea how long it will take because of debris in the water.
Not quite the worst case scenario. That scenario was for the levees to remain in place, but being topped by storm surge, resulting in a Lake New Orleans that was *higher* than Lake Ponchartrain. They talked about blowing holes in the levees to let water out.
That being said, it reminds me of the flooding laong the upper Missippi a few years back. Inexorable. Terrible news.
They are showing (what you said in your update) the models on the wwl feed now.
What do the models say, Micki?
They are explaining right now on WWL (with a couple of LSU profs, that this is not the doomsday scenario, because much of the water that was in the Lake due to storm surge receded after the storm passed. It's still bad, but (a) the level isn't as high as it would have been if it occurred during the hurricane and (b) you don't have additional water being pumped in from the Gulf by a storm.
Brendan,
If you can, please post this link:
http://littlecoop.100megsfree5.c...e5.com/katrina/
Someone over on Metroblogger started a log book - one link is to report about those safe and sound and one is to post for information about those "missing".
I'm sorry, I don't understand what they are saying.
A lot of the terms I am unfamiliar with.
I was going to write about this later on my blog ... alas, I'm at work and can't. But, I thought I would get it off my chest.
I can't wait for the international reaction to the disaster, the worse it becomes. It's now been almost two days, can I get a Holla!?!??!?! Maybe the Hollywood vanguard who came out in droves for Tsunami victims will again shed some needed attention on the homefront. I KNOW its not the same as a Third World Country devastation...but how do you measure this type of disaster? Your Tsunami has nothing on my Katrina? I lost more acres than you? I lost more family members than you? Last time I checked, a refugee is a refugee, there isn't a level of homelessness, and hungry people starve the same way.
This is so awful. I think they just don't know, really.
Has anyone heard anything about Old Metairie, specifically Elmeer Ave. near Metairie Road?
State Rep. John LaBruzzo is on his way into Jefferson Parish. I might be able to get info on his observations if his brother can get him on the phone.
CNN is reporting on this, showing pictures of water slowly rising in different parts of the city. Re: helicopters - I'm sure they've closed the airspace mostly to allow only search and rescue for now, although I did see one report from the air.
If I knew the url for the LSU website, I could probably search for the models.
I do know what the pics look like, just don't understand what they mean.
Here is the quote from WWL's blog:
"11:01 A.M. - Break in 17th Street Canal Levee is now 200 feet wide and slowly flooding the City of New Orleans. Huge sand bags are being airlifted to try to stem the rush of water in that area."
Where did somebody say the following?
"The expectations are that the water will not stop until it reaches lake level."
Only saw that quote on this blog...
If you aren't already, you should watch the wwl feed.
The guy running the models, is going to run a program for that in a few minutes.
He's sitting at a laptop, I assume that's where he's got his information.
Josh Britton is reporting in his blog that the evacuees at the Superdome are being "taken to the processing center at LSU’s Maravich Center. This processing center is being coordinated by the Federal Disaster and Medical Assistance Team."
They are looking for volunteers, particularly in the medical field, to "report to the volunteer table on the west side of the PMAC."
For more info go to: http://joshbritton.com/
PW - Brendan was correct. That quote, in its entirety, did appear on the top of the WWLTV page.
Backer:
I'm sure the country will respond, as it always does, to help folks out. Perhaps you forgot the response of Hollywood et. al 4 years ago when NYC and Washington were attacked. Honestly, your thinly veiled swipe at the America hating hollywood types was ham-fisted and, ultimately, inappropriate.
And let's not even mention this storm in the same sentence as the Tsunami (226,000+ dead). The inability to distinguish facts and make proper analogies is the mark of a weak mind.
Blah, can't believe they're wasting resources trying to plug the 200 foot wide breach, pure publicity stunt as the water will wash them away as fast as they can lay them down (yep, even if they do weigh 3000 lbs. were talking about a continuous wall of high flow rate water 200 feet long and over 10 feet high folks that'll easily wash away homes and cars much less sand bags)...
They need to get those people outta there pronto and quit trying to look good for the cameras and press.
It was on the WWL-TV homepage, but now it's gone -- the whole statement is gone -- not sure what to read into that, if anything.
""The expectations are that the water will not stop until it reaches lake level." "
PW - It was on the wwl homepage. I cut and pasted it onto my webpage, although I abbreviated it a bit.
He said
hurricane.lsu.edu/floodprediction
will have the info.
Someone from WGNO TV was on CNN saying someone lept to their death purposfully from the second floor of the Superdome. Anyone else hear that or confirm that?
This is what I understood from the what he was saying about the model he showed:
Flooding happened in 2 hours.
Why Slidell flooded:
as the storm moved it took water with it to the slidell/biloxi area.
Water was coming with the eye to flood the areas.
Because the storm actually emptied the lake.
The website he gave, I'm not sure but I think the info available after 2 or 3pm. He may have meant it was available yesterday or earlier days.
To micki:
www.hurricane.lsu.edu/floodprediction
I can't access it now but that is the site(if I don't have an typos)
Andrew
They repeated it.
http://www.hurricane.lsu.edu/
flo...floodprediction
I can't access it. It's timing out on me, in firefox.
That looks funny, but the hyperlink, I think is correct.
Can anyone access the link?
I wrote down what they showed on their screen.
www.hurricane.lsu.ede/floodprediction
oops
.edu
The LSU researchers indicated that they thought the breech could be sealed.
You've probably already seen it, but the weather channel blog has a list of hard-hit areas and damage, that may help someone worrying about not hearing from friends or relatives down there--it mentions a lot of communications impossibilities (not just difficulties) on top of everything else going wrong.
Thanks for all you're doing!
Micki,
I appreciate the effort, but take a deep breath and double check before you click publish. I've had a devil of a time sifting thru your posts to figure out what the hell you're saying. Not to mention the link situation, which is dire.
-H.E. Pennypacker
I have been. Multitasking is not simple.
Trying to access site, and watch the feed to get the information, there is bound to be typos.
I was asked about the accuracy of the address.
Metairie Ridge and Gentilly Ridge you can find on a map as City Park Avenue and Gentilly Blvd. It's really Metairie Ridge that will hold back water from the 17th St Canal breach.
I'm reading this blog on the other side of the world, in Europe. It is really hard to understand that something like this is happening even though I saw a document a few months ago that explained just this kind of possibility.
I've seen a couple of comments relating to international response. I guess the assumption in other countries is that your country has the resources to handle this or if not, you will ask for help, so you won't get the same sort of immediate response that happens when a disaster strikes a poor country. It doesn't mean that we don't care.
Right now, the only thing we can do here is to pray that the situation won't get any worse than it already is.
Water rises to the level allowed by
the supply, i.e. the flow of water
and the cfs, and by the expansion volume potential of the space. so it
will keep rising. period. whether the media understands or shares it or not, the fact is that the city will be wet unitil the breach is closed,
and all the water is pumped out.
And all those people who will be evacuated, will have to be fed housed and cared for by someone, somewhere that is safe, dry and sustainable!
Let's not quibble about whether this is the very worst scenario, it is terrible enough for any possible conception or idea as it is.
Just found this in the comments section of Metroblogger:
The Sun Herald is setting up an "I'm OK Line" for folks who left the area to phone in and let their relatives know where they evacuated to. It's a toll free number and the information will be printed in the paper and posted online. You can call (866) 453-1925.
CE - the fluid dynamics of the 200 foot wide by 10 foot tall breach are just a bigger version of the 20 foot wide by 10 foot tall breach ...
You start at the ends, and work towards the middle ... you lay down the sandbags so that the force of the fluid flow pushes the bags more firmly in place against the fixed parts which are still standing ...
You gradually build a curve which is supported by the fluid pressure itself until you can put in what is sort of a horizontal version of the capstone of an arch - and you end up with a well-plugged breach where the fluid pressure itself helps to make the 'plug' stronger and more effective ...
You can then build the replacement part of the levee - and then later decide to either keep the additional sandbag part or remove it ...
It's not grandstanding - it's careful use of experience gained over time ...
Does that help ?
Sandbags ought to at least be able to help prevent widening of the breach in the levee, even if they can't really close it.
Helena,
We've got plenty of resources, both financial and manpower, to handle this situation. Any comment about "where's Europe" is just right wing, anti-UN carping. Lots of these insecure folks require constant, never ending gratitude from the rest of the world.
The overwhelming majority of us understand that the international community is thankful for the aid we gave in Indonesia, etc. We don't need the pat on the back, and there's no need to bow down before us.
Peace.
I just put up a post that aggregates all of the local video footage I have seen. Please feel free to add links in the comments that I might have missed. The post permalink is: http://raywert.blogspot.com/2005...eo-
footage.html
Thanks for posting Helena. Sometimes all we hear about here in the U.S. is about how everyone in the world hates us. It makes people a little defensive.
You are most likely correct that most people in the world think we can handle everything ourselves and, for the most part, that is correct. If and when the day comes when we do need help from Europe, I'm sure help will arrive.
Alasdair just verbally disemboweled CE. Somebody call a Dr.
Here is a link to an article in WaPO that has a diagram showing areas below sea level and a city cross section.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp...5083000689.html
Assuming you secure any breaches, there are several additional problems.
As we saw, the waterflow has apparently weakened the levees in places so there is no guarantee that any patchwork will hold.
Further, and most importantly, where will you pump the water to? Currently, it's being pumped into the lake, which is a considerable part of the problem at this point.
I don't see how it is solved in the next month or even two months or if even the beloved Norleans can be saved. It's heartbreaking.
Sandbags ought to at least be able to help prevent widening of the breach in the levee, even if they can't really close it.
But that doesn't really help, it just slows the inevitable -- either they close the breach, or the bowl floods until the lake and the city are at the same level. As the guy in Titanic says, "It is a mathematical certainty." Or am I wrong about that somehow?
The link does work. It is taking a long time to load. I could not get it to work in my firefox browser, timed out.
After about 2 or 3 minutes the page loaded in Internet Explorer.
There are links to the animations.
http://hurricane.lsu.edu/floodpr...tion/katrina25/
is the most recently updated. You'll have to watch the videos I believe.
Maybe it'll tell what you want to know.
Coach: LOL supposition !=fact
My comments are based on what has happened with past levee breaches under circumstances that weren't any where near as bad as this one, AFAIK lots of crazy ideas have been tried but all have failed...
Alasdair: Sounds great in theory but I've yet to hear in work in practice with helos operating in 30mph+ winds and on such a large breach as this...
I'm more than happy to be proved wrong folks but this all looks to be showboating for the press and/or keep people's hopes up to me...
Added more video including live feeds. Here is the permalink: http://raywert.blogspot.com/2005...eo-
footage.html
Added more video including live feeds. Here is the permalink: http://raywert.blogspot.com/2005...eo-
footage.html
There are thousands of non functional cars right near the breach. What about the possibility of picking and dropping some them in front of the levee to temporarily stem the flow? They weigh at least as much as the sandbags and the supply is nearly unlimited.
I actually don't think its the sandbag weight that does the trick, its the fact that it is form filling, so when wet, the sand molecules, due to their surface area become more cohesive and it is difficult for water to come in.
CE-
I'm glad you enjoyed my barb. As a layman, I've no idea whether this technique will work, but your steadfast claim that it is merely a publicity stunt rings hollow. You know damn well that, with the manpower shortage on the ground, they aren't going to waste resources on publicity stunts.
Maybe it won't work, maybe the helicopters will crash in a ball of fire and cook all the snakes and fire ants lounging around the levee. But don't tell us it's all a show. That's c*ck-blocking pessimism of the highest order.
A friend of mine said this, after talking to his wife, who works at hospital in Monroe, LA:
"Not only is the city of New Orleans under martial law, but they are now moving all the patients from the hospitals there to hospitals here in Monroe and other places around the state. My wife's hospital is getting 65 patients from Tulane Medical Center. Many of the hospitals are without their data bases as many of those were housed in New Orleans and pharmacy law for the state of Louisiana is currently suspended for the time. Word around here is that it could be 6 months to a year before people are allowed back to New Orleans."
6 months to a year? Yikes!
Ray - the critical factor is to have a big enough sandbag that the border erosion-potential flow cannot remove the bag as it is placed ...
CE - even if all the talk just helps keeps people's spirits up, that is *still* better than 'The sky is falling and we're all gonna die !' stuff that helps no-one ... there are times, like this one, where NOT giving in is what it takes to solve the problem ... and, sufficiently often, it is the folk who don't realise how "hopeless it all is" who solve the problems ... (see - Bumblebees and Aerodynamics) ...
For those of you who are interested in how a levee breach is repaired here is a good link:
http://calwater.ca.gov/BDPAC/Sub...utes_6-4-
04.pdf
This is actually link to a CA committee's notes on a levee breach in the California bay but describes in detail the approach to fixing a levee breach. Its got some nice numbers in it to give some of you an idea of how long it'll take and some of other interesting info. too.
The money quote:
"The repair of the Upper Jones tract levee cannot begin until early Saturday morning when it is expected that the water levels between Upper and Lower Jones tract will be equalized."
Totally different scale of a disaster but from the notes it mentions that this breach took place on a Thursday and repairs didn't start til' Saturday.
FoxNews is reporting (at 1:15pm Central) that 80% of New Orleans is now flooded.
They've got a reporter on the ground there who said that in addition to the levee break problem, water is coming up from under the ground - possibly back filling from the drainage system that is currently off line...
Brendan's right about the mathematical certainty. The water will seek equilibrium, unless the breach is sealed. The level of the breach doesn't really matter, because I assume the lake is connected to the ocean. The equilibrium state will be very close to the normal level of the lake (sea level, I'm assuming). The chipped bowl analogy is faulty. The bowl is essentially infinitely big.
Coach Leahy, I didn't really understand your comment "We don't need the pat on the back, and there's no need to bow down before us."
I'm not doing either, just letting you know that there are people elsewhere who care regardless of our political views. This isn't about politics, it's about people, and what's happening in New Orleans and around it is something I would not wish even for my worst enemy.
I don't think six months to a year is out of the question. I know it sounds doomsdayish, but I'm not at all sure that the City can be saved.
You have to figure out what to do about the people in the Superdome, though.
They ain't staying there for six months! Good God.
Prevenging the breach from widening will make it easier to repair the levee in the medium term. A 200-foot wide breach will be easier to fix than a 400-foot wide one. There's a possibility that they can actually narrow the breach, as the water flow may be slow enough right at the edges to not pick up a 3000-pound sandbag; if that's the case, then they can even start narrowing the breach.
Wrecked cars won't work, unless they're crushed, too. What flowing water can wash away depends on the weight and density of the "particle". A wet sandbag has a density much higher than that of a water-filled car.
Really, it's the cross-sectional area and weight that matters - the force of the water is a pressure sideways, and increases with the area The resisting force is the weight of the object. Large blocks of concrete or rocks would be better than sandbags, but they may not be so easy to come by, and they'll leave a much more porous barrier.
Lastly, assuming no additional storm surge, or Mississippi floodwaters, the water level in the "bowl" will end up being effectively equal to the level in Lake Ponchatrain.
It would seem to be a daunting task to try to sandbag a 200 foot, or two block, breach in that(those)canals.
From what I saw on CNN, the canal is not very wide, perhaps not more than 50 feet. It seems to me that it might be quicker to block off the whole canal upstream of the breach.
Once the inflow of water is stopped, then some of the other problems can be addressed.
One possibility, to accomplish such a closure, would be: If a large barge is available on Lake Pontchartrain; to sink that barge at the entrance to the canal, then sandbag around it to seal it off.
Once the water is stopped, the levy can be more easily repaired,whereupon the barge can be re-floated.
The purpose of this canal is to provide a path to the lake, for the water that must be pumped out. Therefore,it is essential that it be restored to it's proper function.
Having been a Slidell resident, and survivor of Betsy in '65, I am deeply affected by this situation. Some of my co-workers took their boats into the city, and rescued many people. I, with co-workers, shoveled mud out of a house off Bay St Louis.
I havn't blogged anything on any of this yet, perhaps I will later.
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Any hydrologists in the house? My pencil scratching indicates it could take in the ballpark of 10,000 sandbags to plug that hole in the 17th Street Canal levee wall, but I could be 'way off. Are they aiming to plug the hole, or the entire canal? The latter would seem easier, because of having more room to operate, and on the front side of the flow instead of the back side.
Alsadir: I think you're both reading in to what I'm saying too much.
Nowhere have I stated, "The sky is falling and we're all gonna die!"
My complaint is that'll it'll waste resources that could go towards evacuating people, which is a real concern not just from the amount of people but because how long it takes to do it (already there are major food and water shortages, imagine what things'll be like in 3 days with flooding likely to continue throughout that time period?).
Coach: "but your steadfast claim that it is merely a publicity stunt rings hollow."
I don't see how you can say this as my comments come from historical fact, not my imagination of doom & gloom. Better to face reality IMO than give people false hopes...
"But don't tell us it's all a show. That's c*ck-blocking pessimism of the highest order."
It wouldn't be the first time that governemnts (ours included...) have done something like that you know.
Helena,
My comment re: bowing down is simple. A small, vocal minority of people complain that Europe isn't grateful to the US, that the international community wasn't thankful enough for the support we gave the tsunami victims. My point is that the overwhelming majority of us understand that the world appreciates us, and we don't need constant reassurance of same like this small minority.
Basically, the issue of whether Europe is going to "help" us is a red herring because we don't need it. Anyone who proffers the question most likely has an axe to grind against Europe/the UN for some perceived slight. They really mean "the US is awesome and we help everyone, but we never get any credit. When are they going to help us?" It's a lame argument.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that it's not a partisan issue. But someone who brings up the question of help from Europe is being decidedly partisan.
Hi all - I'm a hydrologist & I thought I'd explain what mechanics behind a levee breach. Essentially what you have is water levels on one side of the levee higher than the water level on the other side. So water will flow from the higher side to the lower side until both sides are equal.
Since the lake has an nearly infinitely source of water from the Gulf, the lake level won't drop too much. So water will continue to flow into the city until the water levels equalize. The amount of flow through the levee is shown by the following equation Q=CLH^3/2, where Q is flow, C is a coefficient, L=the width of breach, and H=is the depth of water flowing over the levee. So the flow over the breach is directly related to the width of the breach & the dept hof water flowing over it. However, as the water level gets closer & closer to equalizing, the flow across the breach will slow down (which is not accounted for in the basic equation).
I've also used similar computer models that the two professors from LSU were describing. In fact I've met with the two of them in the past. Let's just say that it is somewhat of a inexact science, but the models can give a good idea of what to expect.
Hi all - I'm a hydrologist & I thought I'd explain what mechanics behind a levee breach. Essentially what you have is water levels on one side of the levee higher than the water level on the other side. So water will flow from the higher side to the lower side until both sides are equal.
Since the lake has an nearly infinitely source of water from the Gulf, the lake level won't drop too much. So water will continue to flow into the city until the water levels equalize. The amount of flow through the levee is shown by the following equation Q=CLH^3/2, where Q is flow, C is a coefficient, L=the width of breach, and H=is the depth of water flowing over the levee. So the flow over the breach is directly related to the width of the breach & the dept hof water flowing over it. However, as the water level gets closer & closer to equalizing, the flow across the breach will slow down (which is not accounted for in the basic equation).
I've also used similar computer models that the two professors from LSU were describing. In fact I've met with the two of them in the past. Let's just say that it is somewhat of a inexact science, but the models can give a good idea of what to expect.
So, Cliff, what should we expect? In your opinion, will the sanbags work?
It's difficult to say without knowing exactly how deep the breach actually is. The fact of the matter is, even if they can reduce the width of the breach from 200ft down to 100ft or 50ft, then they will potentially slow down the amount of water coming into the city.
The depth of the breach also determines how fast the water is moving across it, and if the velocity is high enough, it's possible that the sandbags won't hold.
Blocking the actual canal with sandbags/barges is a good alternative I think, but it obviously requires a lot more volume of stuff to block it with. From the one photo I've seen, if the breach is actually 200ft wide, by scale, the canal looks to be at least 3x as wide as the breach, and if it's 10ft deep, that's a lot of volume to try & block.
Like I said, it's difficult to make an estimate not knowing all the information. But if they only need to block a couple of feet in the breach, then that would require far less material than blocking the canal.
Here's something that might help in the discussion. The 17th Street Canal,
the source of the problem, seems to be the straight treeline coming down
the left portion of this Coast Guard photo taken this morning:
http://www.uscgstormwatch.com/
ex...ocumentID=81913
The photo roughly corresponds to this map below:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ne...59524&t=h&
hl=en
The canal doesn't seem to be very wide. I wish I had a better visual memory of it. (A personal note: an elderly, disabled friend who refused to leave before the storm lives in a ground-floor apartment near the corner of Carrollton and West Esplanade at the upper left of the map and photo. Please pray for Jim. The 17th Street Canal is 2 blocks east of him. I have heard that the break is away from him, on the Orleans Parish, or east, side of the canal. His spot may still be very, very wet.)
Correction: on that Google map linked in my last post, it is necessary to zoom in one notch to get the scale closer to the Coast Guard photo. Please pardon my error.
Actually the 17th St Canal is not visible in the Coast Guard photo. The photo shows the flooded West End Blvd and in the foreground the merge of I-10 and I-610. The Canal is off the far left of the photo and emerges into the lake approximately where the marina ends in the upper left corner. If you look on the Google satellite view the canal is bordered on the west by Orpheum Ave.
Then the treeline (in the Coast Guard photo) that I mistakenly thought was the 17th Street Canal is actually Fleur de Lis Drive? And the canal itself looks to be a little less than 200 feet wide . . . ?
Henry,
If i'm not mistaken, the tree line you are talking about in the coast guard photo is Fleur de Lis Dr., not the 17th street canal
oh, too late
No problem, Kevin. I'm just stumbling around at a distance. Hopefully great minds are working on this difficulty, and with great speed, since it seems to be such a critical emergency.
The ideas of sinking a barge and dropping waterlogged vehicles as rubble are not far-fetched, if temporarily blocking the whole canal is the objective.
To be a timely solution, it's probably going to have to be quite creative and from a government or military official who is willing to circumvent bureaucracy and commandeer resources to get the job done fast. Otherwise, the plug is out and the bathtub (Lake Pontchartrain) is going to drain, at least to an equilibrium state which includes about all of New Orleans and Metairie.
OK a back of the envelope calculation assuming a 70 yd wide by 3 yd deep breech and plugging it to a width of 3 yds (probably not enough) gives you about 1000 sand bags at 3000 lbs/a bag. Wet sand weighs about 4500 lbs a cubic yd.
Dropping these from a helicopter might take a lot more to compensate for missed drops and such.
BK
CE - my apologies if you are feeling "disemboweled" ... I spent a number of summers as a kid enjoying smaller versions of such a project ... and the physics involved is largely scalable ...
Bottom line tends to be you have to start at the edges and work your way inwards ...
Coach - I try not to disembowel fellow commenters ... of course, being Scots, I may occasionally hand 'em the sharpened knives and *watch* 'em do it to 'em selves, but that's different ... (innocent grin) ...
A truly scary thought that was mentioned on the news earlier involves floodwaters coming down the Mississippi from the torrential rains Katrina is creating farther north. Hope that doesn't happen.
P.S.-Does anyone know how the Tulane University Uptown campus is? It was evacuated on movein day and they sound really uncertain about when we can come back. The president, on the emergency line, said something about extensive damage, but nothing specific (much to our frustration). We were supposed to start school on the 7th, but we don't know now. Any info would be much appreciated.
Does anyone here work?
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