Is this where we continue the Madeleine McCann Open Thread discussion?
You can continue here if you wish, yes.
Hi,
I hope this thread can continue. I really miss all the posters, even those who think the McCanns are guilty 
What do you think of this retired South African policeman who says he found DNA on the beach.
http://tinyurl.com/2tlpb9
Karina
And here is another article from Sky News titled "separating facts from fiction"
http://tinyurl.com/34uk8x
K.
From Correio da Manhã 6th of October:
DNA tests of the hair
PJ explores the hypothesis of fall in the sofa
Trying to understand how Madeleine McCann died is the great dilemma for the PJ Detectives. Although it is assumed that an accident occurred in the apartment of the Ocean Club, the exact outlines of what did really happened in that end of afternoon of the 3rd of May are still unknown.
One of the hypotheses reported to the CM by investigators is that there is a possibility that Maddie fall accidentally and beat her head in the house where she was with her younger brothers.
The fall was mortal, and for undefined circumstances, the parents succeed to hide the corpse and simulate disappearance of Maddie. Although the authorities defends that the body has been buried in the beach, some hours after death, the question where they did it, is a real conundrum.
Sources from the CM reports that the tests of the hair found near the sofa are crucial. First, the vestiges could tell if Maddie was alive or dead when she lost her hair and secondly the analysis could tell if she had taken medication.
THE DIRECTION OF THE INQUIRY IS MAINTAINED
The departure of Gon
çalo Amaral didn’t change the direction of the investigations. The new PJ coordinator of Portimão, probably known next week, should maintain the current line of investigation after having extinguished all the possibilities of the kidnapping theory.
The body search should be intensified: the authorities believe that without the body it would be very difficult to close the inquiry. “A process is, by definition, a reconstruction of the past. An autopsy is necessary to understand what really happen” said a judicial source to the CM.
Trough rogatory letters sent by the General Procurator of the Portuguese Republic, several diligences would be done very soon by the British police.
GERRY DIDN’T READ POLICE REPORT
The PJ didn
’t show to Gerry the report of the British police, concerning the blood vestiges of Madeleine found in the rented car. The CM knows that this request has been done during the Gerry’s interrogatory, but the PJ didn’t give the document due to the secret laws of the inquiry. Sources closed to the McCanns stressed that it was for that reason that the cardiologist refuse to answer to certain questions of the investigators.
Correio da Manha 10th of OCtober
DATA REVEALED THAT THE FATHERS LIED
3D-VIDEO INVALIDATES THE KIDNAPPING THEORY
Paulo Sargento and Pedro Gamito, forensic psychology professors from the Portuguese University of Lisbon, Lus
ófona, did a scientific study and conceived a 3D-video of the Ocean Club. The aim was to visualize the space of the complex holydays and to determine all the displacements done the day that Madeleine disappeared.
Based on the timeline of the events reported by the Portuguese and English press, a Crime Scene Reconstitution has been done. It has been proven that the path done by Kate and Gerry at 18h30 to take their children in the creches has a distance of 120 meters (131 yards) and not 50 meters (55 yards) as they reported. And it has been also proven that the McCanns lied when they have said that the children's room was visible from the restaurant.
"In this small space in which we don
’t know what happen, there are several important discrepancies with the timeline. For example, between 20h03 and 20h10, there are twenty minutes in excess. In other words, what happen in seven minutes, as the McCann couple said, has really taken 20 minutes", explained Paulo Sargento in the TV show ' Fátima ' last Friday.
The opinion of Moita Flores, criminologist, is that "the couple lied" and also that they have "an indifference and omission in relation with the fate of their children". The essential fact that cant escape to any police inquiry is that the fathers and the friends lied about the timeline", explained Moita Flores.
The study data of the forensic psychology professors revealed that the time has 88.9% of matching and it' s in the English testimonies that the greatest discrepancies were found. "This [the video] is a material that must be investigated by the PJ. The story that there an abductor was present in the apartment is not viable", said the ex-Detective.
At 21h25, the abductor was supposed to have taken the child. At that time, Russel and Mathew were near the McCann's apartment. And it's for that reason that Moita Flores believes that "the abduction theory is implausible".
The crime scene reconstution can be seen in the web site of the Portuguese TV SIC:
http://sic.sapo.pt/online/
notici...consistente.htm
Abductor theory is not consitent.
An academical study about Madeleine disapperance has been presented by Portuguese Offending profiler.
One of the experts of the Maddie case says that the abductor theory is not consitent. The offending profiler Paulo Sargento did a study with the University Lusofona reconstituing the events that occured before the disappearance of Maddie. This is a virtual scene crime reconstitution and it's used to test the hypothesis of the Portugueses authorities.
The offending profiler Paulo Sargento has reconstructed the crime scene of what happen the night when Madeleine vanished. The timeline of the events related by the Portuguese newspaper SOL, the British newspaper Times and the BBC has been taken into account in the model.
The concordence of the times of the events since The McCanns have gone to the creche at 16h the 3rd of May, to the hour 22 h when Kate said that Maddie disappeared.
Since the McCanns arrived at the restaurant, at 20h, 7 persons of the friend's group have gone out and in 14 times in a couple of hours.
The abductor theory, in the opinion of Paulo Sargento, didn't win consistencey.
wow atrina that is an interesting article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
Has anyone read this yet?
Thank you Jose for the very detailed post. The link is excellent except I for one would have liked to know how busy it was that night. Were the McCann's and their friends the only ones there that evening? I doubt it. The abductor theory now consigned to the dust bin. It's all gone a bit quiet in the news here in England. Anyone else notice this?
Ohh I missed you all.
Karina, I don't think Danie Kruger has any business getting involved. I think he preys on the weak and vulnerable.
Hi everyone,
I just wrote a post but it did not show up. Just testing to see if this one will.
Ali, I just read your link. Wow...it does not look good for the McCanns.
RTP News:
The successor of Goncalo Amaral is Paulo Rebelo.
Hi All,
I've missed reading all your comments,
posting this to see if it works okay.
Lizbee
A note about this new format:
It should work fine for all of you, in some ways better than the old format. Believe me, it's FAR superior to anything blogspot provides with its setup.
CAVEAT: It simply won't accept a post longer than 3000 characters. Not yet. I may be able to upgrade the template (click the donation button on the main page of the blog if you'd like to help with that) to accept larger posts, but 3000 characters is pretty large -- unless you're a typical poster to an open thread about Madeleine McCann 
You should be able to do normal html. Links may automatically truncate, but they should still work.
Thanks,
Steve
Thanks Steve
Lizbee
Yes Ali, Maggie et al.
I read those reports I must admit I'm not particularly impressed by Danie Kruger who apparently turns up at crime scenes and imposes his theories.
As for the timeline 'virtual mapping' exercise I think that's crucial; all along I've been concerned that where the T9 said they were at what time and why was inconsistent and illogical. I've pointed out a couple of times that if it happened as they said they'd have been tripping over each other all night - and they weren't. This exercise seems to confirm that.
Thank you so much, Steve.
Hi, Lizbee,
Glad you joined us again.
I wonder why the British press does not publish the Portuguese press articles.
Don't know if people have seen this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PT8QJL9nlaw
I'ts yet more damning confirmation of K & Gs irresponsible parenting and gives a very clear indication of the set up of MW PDL resort etc.
Re: British press, I have seen some P news reports in Broadsheets but nevr in Tabloids, nuff said they're generally more interested in selling newspapers not reporting the actual news.
LizBee
Do you remember someone on the prior post giving us a video of the distance between the apartment and the Tapa bar?
Several people including myself were surprised that it was so close.
Now it does not look at all like the youtube video you posted.
I am very confused about the actual distance.
Do you remember the videos I am talking about?
Steve,
Why are there no numbers for posts this time; Is it a techy reason?
Lizbee
I do Karina, but if you remember the video stopped at MW Reception because she was making the staff nervous by filming. The video maker told us that the Tapas Bar '...is just through there past Reception'.
However we can see from this video that the bar is actually right through that building and out on the other side with the outdoor tables being the farhtest away.
I don't understand your question, Lizbee. "Posts for this time?"
Could you be more specific?
Thanks,
Steve
Oh, I see, Lizbee.
That prior video was very deceptive. I did not make sense to me after I had seen the areal photos.
Steve,
Each post was numbered before, so we could refer to the actual post# when we replied to someone.
It was helpful.
Yes, it's a techie reason. Unless I pay for the upgraded version of this commenting system, I can't do any editing on the appearance of the comments or do anything that might add post numbers. I will get that eventually, just can't right now. And then I'll have to figure out just how to add in post numbers, too.
Steve,
What I meant was that the last time I posted comments on your site (before it was updated) there were sequential numbers next to each comment which was really helpful when there were a few of us commenting and loads of post to wade through. Sorry this might be my fault as I'm not that used to all this still really.
Liz
Thanks for your reply Steve I thought it must be a techie reason.
Karina I was as shocked as you by the video (was it from Ellibean?) at the time because the distance seemed so much shorter than I had imagined after seeing the aerial shots.
I think this one showing the actual view of the apartment from the seats the group were sat at should be more accurate.
Not like seeing it for yourself as I still think video & camera footage has a way of wrongfooting your brain (e.g. my house always looks huge, smart and really clean on home videos lol).
Hello Everyone,
Glad to have this discussion resume. I am so very interested in this case and am hoping so much that justice will win out soon. I appreciate all of the intelligent comments and am always mulling over different reasonings.
The McCanns are definitely in a lose-lose situation. No matter what the truth is, they will still be in misery. Unless of course they find Madeleine alive. Always a possibility, however dim.
Hi everyone, finally found the new version. Prefered the old one but this is better than nothing. I was suffering from withdrawal symptoms. Thanks to Steve for getting this back online.
Re: the video I don't think its the physical distance from the Tapas to the apartment so much as the line of site (lack of) and the circuitous route needed to get from one to the other. To make a proper check on children would have taken some time. I still don't think anyone in their right mind would leave their children there and I don't believe the story we are being told.
Is this the bombshell it seems?
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/po...osts/view/
21471
Daily Express is normally supportive of the McCanns.
Hi John, good to 'see you' again,
I agree about the distance v route and have not changed my mind about inpropriety of leaving children alone in those cicumstances.
Re: DEx Bombshell, it's been expected for days although you're right to query this papers turn of face. On the mirror forum they are sayong the same about a few of the tabloids. Apparently they (red tops) all have v fat dossiers of bad news on the T9 and are just waiting for the right time to switch the fan on and load the shovel!
Liz
Hullo, Everyone:
I've been lurking here for days...weeks? Spent masses of time searching for the comments and waiting...waiting. So glad you're all back.
For my two bits; my "gut" says they're scared as well as dissembling and, perhaps feeling trapped now. As a mother of two, and, admittedly, somewhat cautious, I can't imagine leaving the doors unlocked and swanning off to supper.
Strega
Virginia, US
http://tinyurl.com/yrovwe
Here is an article on Paulo Rebelo, the new guy in charge of the investigation in Portugal.
Let's hope he is good and gets things moving quickly.
http://tinyurl.com/2s5n25
This is from the Times.
I can't remember reading anywhere that DNA was found at an apartment used by their friends. Whose apartment was it?
Was that publicized before? How could I have missed it?
"The DNA was found in their apartment at the Ocean Club resort. Samples were also found at a nearby apartment used by their friends at the same time, and from a car hired by her parents 25 days after she was reported missing.
Karina wrote: "I hope this thread can continue. I really miss all the posters, even those who think the McCanns are guilty".
Karina, I, too, am glad that we can continue this discussion here on this new site. And I admire you for continuing to believe in the innocence of the McCanns. I, too, thought that there was no way on earth that they could be involved in the disappearance of their daughter, until I learned that they vehemently denied undertaking a polygraph. That's when I changed my mind. As a parent myself, I would take 1000 lie detector tests, knowing that they are not admissible in court, but simply to demonstrate that I have nothing to hide. I believe that only people who have secrets fear polygraph tests. If the McCanns are truly innocent, they should have welcomed the polygraph as a means to prove that what they have been saying is in fact true. And alas, there have simply been so many inconsistencies in this case thus far that I'm inclined to believe that the McCanns have alot to explain.
Karina wrote: "Wow...it does not look good for the McCanns."
You're quite right, Karina. And it hasn't looked good for the parents for several weeks now. They refused to take a polygraph test. They hired four lawyers. Makes you go hmmm......
24Horas:
PJ is certain that Maddie wasn't alone with the twins
There was seven children in the McCann's house
Another fastbreaking news in the mediatic McCann case. Finally, in the appartement where the toggler vanished the 3rd of May, there was not three but seven children reports the 24Horas.
Jose, do you have a link to that new story?
Billie, the link to that story is:
http://www.24horasnewspaper.com/...ews.php?
id=7736
Well the idea that 6 (or possiby 7 in some papers) children were in that room puts a whole new light on the abandonment/neglect thing. If this is true then it changes the cycle of checking and everything. I wonder how reliable this is or if it is another red herring.
hey everybody, the dna in the second apartment would certainly fit the scenario that M died in the McCanns' apartment, was then moved, and only then was the alarm raised.
(Btw, thanks Steve for letting us continue our investigative deliberations
Re John
All the children in the same apartement, I agree, It could be another red herring.
That hypothesis is only based on the facts that vestiges of the other children were found in the McCann's apartment and also that testimonies from the Ocean Club saw the McCann s friends only going to the McCann's apartment.
I always wondered about the testimonies from the staff at the Ocean Club. This was especially so after one of the staff - no longer in MW employ - blabbed all to the papers a story that was very complimentary to the McCanns et al. If true this is very scary stuff indeed and I can't quite get my mind around it. I think the release of this news in dribs and drabs is the right way to go about it - to think all that money was allowed to be donated and for what? What does it all mean in terms of what actually happened? Certainly rules out abduction....
Re the story of the nanny who worked in Ocean Club during May. It seems to me that stories complimentary to the McCann's nearly always preempt 'bad' news. Does anyone else see this pattern? The fact that 7 children might be in the same room has left me flabbergasted.
Why the need for red herrings? Can someone explain? Perhaps I need more coffee....
phew. found it. hi everyone!
why no numbers steve? x
Hi all. Thanks Steve I had just finished speaking to the Samaritans when I found the site. The only thing that appears to have changed is that even the McCanns most fervent supporters appear to be ever so slightly dubious?
Please tell me PDX77 I have not missed your 79th birthday, that truly would be a crime!
Hi sleuths
It is perhaps worth emphasising for those of you who are not British what the tabloid press is about in our country. They don't really exist to tell news, or uncover truth or anything like that - basically they are scandal sheets which work to produce the maximum profit for their shareholders. So that is why you will see the same paper on consequent days telling two totally contradictory stories. Or a range of papers all on the same day with opposing headlines. It is not advisable to treat anything they say as confirmation of fact!
My view is still that the actual evidence we have means the parents have lots of questions to answer - and if police evidence does show Madeleine to have died at the apartment on May 3 is it very hard to see a scenario in which the parent/s are not implicated.
Does anyone have an english translation or summary of the story for which Jose gave this link in his latest post?
http://www.24horasnewspaper.com/....com/
...ews.php? id=7736
Also I was interested in the Portuguese psychologists' computer animated reconstruction. The clips of this which are in the news broadcast to which Jose linked at the beginning of this thread confirm my understanding of the distances from the restaurant to the apartments and help to understand the general layout plus the timelines which can be worked out from what has been made public so far.
The parents' and the Tapas group stories so far do tend to make an adbuction hypothesis less likely, in my view and as these psychologists claim.
Of course the reported stories on which the timelines which we have are based may not all be true!
If the claims of frequent checking of the children were all correct, not only would an abductor have found it difficult to take action that evening, but also Madeleine would more than likely not have gone missing.
So - does anyone have a link to a full or fuller version of this animated reconstruction?
here rm: http://sic.sapo.pt/online/video/...deo/informacao/
click on page 3. first video top left.
Perhaps this is the most important bit from the 24horas newspaper article:
"Entre as contradies detectadas pelos investigadores....[ ]...mudana de roupa de cama naquela noite."
Basically, it says that one striking discrepancy is that Russel O'B. claimed to have been away from the restaurant looking after his sick and vomiting child between 21.35 and 22.00. He also claimed to have asked for a change of sheets, but none of the Ocean Club staff can remember him making this request.
Concerning the problem of the distance from the Tapas to the McCann apartement, you can use google earth to determine the distance:
Distance tapas to the back door of the appartement: 137m, 150 yard time: 2mn
http://img515.imageshack.us/
img5...pasportekb9.jpg
Distance from the front door: 74m, 81 yard time: 1mn
http://img186.imageshack.us/
img1...tefentrecv4.jpg
There is a french video (245 MB) done by Karl Zero, french journalist known for misinformation:
http://cdn1.leweb2zero.tv/
downlo...09207de98c8.mp4
The abductor theory is sustained.
There is alot of inconsitencies concerning the events. But it could be interesting to see it.
PDG - cheers, but that is the news report which Jose also linked to.
The clips shown in this news item are very intersting. But what I meant was, does anyone know where to find a full length version, or at least a fuller version, of the actual animated reconstruction? I realise this may not be online, but if it is it would be even more interesting to look at this in some detail.
Re A reasonable man
The full length version of the animated reconstruction is not avalaible in the web.
But you can ask to Paulo Sargento, if he can put it in the internet:
paulo.sargento@ulusofona.pt
http://www.24horasnewspaper.com
Copied translation from the Mirror Forum Site:
Judiciaria is certain that Maddie was not only with her siblings
There were seven children in the McCanns' house
A new twist in the media-exposed case into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. It turns out that there were not only three, but seven children in the apartment where the girl vanished from, on May 3, as 24Horas could find out with police sources connected to the investigation.
The authorities have discovered new evidence that in the house that was rented by the McCanns there were residues that were later confirmed as belonging to the children of the couple's friends that gathered at the Tapas restaurant for dinner.
This new version demolishes the theory that is defended by that group of friends as to what happened on the fateful day and weakens the possibility that one stands before a kidnapping.
As a member of PJ told 24Horas, "unless we're dealing with a sexual predator who followed the girl for a long time, which is not likely, as they had been in the Algarve for six days only, it would not be very likely for her to be selected, even because in terms of crimes of this nature, the criminals look for younger children, which are easier to sell for adoption".
Another source with the investigation was laconic: "It's not only the collected evidence that points to the fact that there were more children inside that apartment. There is also evidence, which is duly fundamented after the interrogations to the other persons that were at the Ocean Club, that only the McCanns' apartment was visited by the people who attended the dinner."
The contradictions that were detected include the version that was offered by Russel O'Brien, one of the McCann couple's friends, who left the restaurant for 25 minutes (between 9.35 and 10 p.m.). The British man guaranteed he took that long because he visited his sick daughter, and she vomited. He says he asked for the sheets to be changed, but the staff at the Ocean Club assured the investigators that nobody asked for any bedsheets to be changed that evening. Another issue that is not straightforward is connected to Jane Tanner, who guaranteed she checked on her daughter around 9.15. But Jeremy Wilkins, a friend of Gerry McCann, revealed that at that time he was chatting with him close to the apartment where Maddie disappeared from and that it would be impossible for Jane not to meet them.
The PJ investigators even considered the possibility that Maddie may have left the apartment looking for her parents, and fell into an open sewer ditch. But the searches at the location, and the questioning from the workers that were doing the job dismissed that possibility.
"In face of so many contradictions and in face of the forensics results that we already hold, we have very few doubts that the girl died inside that apartment, and we only have doubts about who concealed the corpse", a source wit
i dont have a translation of the 24 horas article but here is the times version of it:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
t..........621809.ece
I may be missing something but how can DNA prove that the 7 children were in the apartment that night?
Re John
We have to suppose that DNA samples of the 7 children have been sent to the FSS .
This is getting more and more confusing.
Does anyone know how old the other children are?
If it is true, why would the parents hide the fact that all the children were there?
I can't imagine all these parents being complicit in hiding the death of a child.
Does anyone here think it was NOT an accidental death?
This whole case is driving crazy. It actually keeps me awake at night, trying to figure out what happened.
Karina
Jose - but it wouldn't be surprising if their DNA was in the McCanns apt. but how do they know that they were there that night? - Also if this is a PJ leak - what's the point? To confuse team McCann?
Karina - I don't know what to make of the 7 children being there (if true) - it could still be accidental death but it would thne have to involve more of the Tapas 9. Why I am obsessively drawn to this case I don't know. When this site goes down I am lost! Have to switch off to get a good night's sleep.
Re Karina
According to the Portuguese newspaper SOL:
Rachel Manpilly and Mathew Olfield:
One child 18 month age old in the 3rd of May
David and Fiona Payne:
Two children
Russell O’Brian and Jane Tanner:
Two children, one with the age of Maddie
Yes, Karina, I do believe Maddy died accidentally.
Why wouldn't Maddy's DNA be in another apartment along with other children's DNA being in their apartment, they had been there for 6 days, the kids would have been playing together, going back and forth from one place to another. Think about it. If I came to your house I would leave DNA there.
http://tinyurl.com/2knhjg
The McCanns' lawyers have hired their own DNA expert.
Getting ready for the DNA battle!
This case will never end :-(
http://tinyurl.com/2ec7yt
It looks like the battle of DNA experts will start. The McCanns' attorney have hired their own DNA expert.
The McCanns, via Clarence Mitchell, have denied than more than their 3 children were in the room.
Sorry for the double post.
I waited a while for the first post to show up but it took forever. So, I wrote another one and then both showed up.
Re John
I agree with you that certainly DNA of the children was present in the McCann apartment. Therefore, it's impossible to conclude that they were really present when Maddie vanished.
The 24horas also report that nobody of the Ocean Club staff has seen the friends entering in their own apartments. They have been seen only entering in the McCann's apartment. If they were supposed to take care of their own children, the question is what they were doing in the McCann's apartment?
Madeleine was the oldest child of the group. There was another child a little younger.
Beggars belief that people would leave 8 children under 4 alone. As every parent knows, it's really hard to get kids to sleep (at the same time!) during sleepovers.Remember Kate's pregnant pause on Womans Hour (bbc radio 4) when Jenny asks her "So was Madeleine asleep when you left?".
(Call me a vibe merchant but that wierd hesitation, along with Gerry's visible discomfort and ear scratching when asked about calpol , are just such obvious lies, it's practically telegraphed!)
Its not DNA evidence that has led to this conclusion about all the children being there,I dont think. Its the fact that witnesses have said that the tapas 9 only went back and forth to the Mccanns apt, not their own apts.
24 horas:" that only the McCanns' apartment was visited by the people who attended the dinner."
Jose,
They were supposed to take turn checking on all the children. So, it's not strange that some of the Tapa7 would go inside the McCanns' apartment.
Re Karina
It's not strange that some of Tapas 7 would go inside the McCann's apartment, I agree.
The fact is that only Russell O'Brian said that he had gone to the room of the McCann's children while he visited its proper children, but later he denied it.
If there are testimonies saying that they did enter in the McCann's apartment, why did the Tapas 7 lie?
The McCanns have denied that more than their three children were in the apart. This is interrogation by newspaper!
Was it not reported that Madeleine's DNA or traces were found in another apartment? So if all the kids were put together in one apartment - which makes a kind of sense for a party of friends - cos you can then reduce the checking required, one adult easily checks all the children. Then something happens to Madeleine and she is moved to another apartment. Then presumably the other children are returned to their own places and the 'abduction' reported.
Hmmmm its hard to believe that so many adults conspired in this. If something happened to M earlier in the afternoon then why would they put all the kids together? No - this doesn't help really.
Jose,
I don't know why they lied. This case is getting more bizarre by the minute.
If Madeleine died accidentally, why this elaborate concoction of abduction and keeping up with the lies for so many weeks, getting all this publicity, hiring the private detective agency. All this energy spent to cover up a child's death.
I am lost.
If all 7 were together then why lie and say only the three siblings were there? Abduction by a stranger would still be possible. Such a lie does not seem to give any advantage.
I'm beginning to think that this is a piece of nonsense.
Re John "Also if this is a PJ leak - what's the point? To confuse team McCann?"
May be it's a way to force one of the Tapas 7 to speak.
Probably, the PJ is convinced that at least one of the Tapas 7 help the McCanns to hide the body and that someone else knows it. Saying that they are lying, they become potential suspects and then the PJ expect that one of them would speak.
Sorry to keep saying the same thing over and over, not to worry my family and friends have already told me what an old bore I am. However if the children are grouped together (unproven) then why would K or G bother checking them? Especially as the mysterious Dr O' Brian and the ubiquitous (perfect word) Miss Tanner were tending their sick offspring who would have to be in the same room?
Or as many of us have suspected from the beginning, why not just one person checking on all the children at once, whether they are all in one place is irrelevant. What is important is it would explain why the McCanns did not lock their door. Now put yourself in the place of a tapas 9er. If one of them checked every 20 minutes and then before 10pm it is discovered, by whom is unimportant, that M is missing then it would not be known on whose watch she went missing and all would feel some form of guilt, hence the wall of silence and the conspiracy theories abounding.
If all the kids were in one room (every evening) then surely one of the Tapas could have played baby-sitter. Not just checking up on them, but actually being there in apartment with them. The parents could have taken it in turns.
But, REMEMBER, forensic test results, conclusions and deductions coming from the PJ must ALWAYS be taken with a pinch of salt (and you still have to take out the pepper).
The McCanns are still more likely to be innocent than guilty, in my view. It's always possible that an abductor targeted M, because he knew her parents were part of a dodgy group, i.e. the blame would fall on them.
Evening all, hope you are all well.
I'm not sure what to make of this latest story about the children/infants ALL being in the same room. Although it would explain why all of the T9 are united in their response as to the lack of causal blame that should be directed towards any one of them and are especially supportive of K & G on this, because they all feel equally guilty. This story would add credance to the 'taking turns checking' scenario thay describe.
However it just doesn't sit right with me, they'd have to have been sedated to all sleep together without disturbing each other and what's in it for the other parents who'd only have to move their children when they got back after a night out and risk a disturbed nights sleep for themselves.
Tried it out for size but it doesn't fit for me unless some evidence comes to light.
Lizbee
Lizbee
Sorry maybe I was being somewhat vague in my last posting. I personally do not believe all the children were in one room. However what no-one has yet suggested is that maybe they were ALL sedated and maybe at the same time in the same place. This would give further reason for the tapas 9 to stick together. It may also have been the cause of the child of Dr O'B (I always feel tempted to write Wan Knobi after that) throwing up.
If the children were being "block" checked then not only would the 9 all feel guilt but it is possible that they genuinely did not know at what time M went missing as they did not physically check each child. I shall rephrase that "it is possible that SOME of them genuinely did not know what time M went missing."
I agree I dont think that all the children were together the night M went missing. First off I would imagine that all those children together would be bedlam, and hardly safe at all.
Jose
I think that your theory is good. I always thought that Tapas 9 Russell was sketchy with his story of leaving a vomiting sick kid alone. I would not be suprised t see tht he
helped with a cover up. In my honest opinion, someone is lying here
It bothers me a lot that this OBrien fellow left his sick child who he said had been vomiting.
Is Jane Tanner the mother of the child? I wonder why she did not rush the see her kid.
Yes, something is definitely not right with the Tapa7. They are not forthcoming and are hiding something.
Yet, I can't believe that the McCanns or someone else hid Madeleine's body for 25 days.
Stanley, Ali et al,
On another forum the current idea re: ALL children together is that they were NOT ALL there but there was at least one additional families child/ren. the theory being developed on the Mirror forum is that this story has been broken in order for the parents not involved in the group 'leaving & checking' to come forward and break the silence about what the arrangements really were.
I wouldn't hold my breath as I'm certain that those involved are fully aware of these discussion forums and tactics. It's a standoff situation at the moment and IMO there will be no movement from the other 7 members of the T9 until some kind of guarantee against reprisals have been offered.
What are your thoughts on this?
Lizbee
Lizbee
Sorry we still do not have numbers on the thread. However on your comment at 6:15. Being a wonderfully democratic nation with a perfect police force with a 100% clear up record and who also can boast of the finest judiciary system the 19th century has to offer, we will show these foreign chappies how to investigate a crime the truly British way. The only question is which one of the tapas 7 will sell their story and to which paper and for how much money. Watch this space I give it till the end of the month. I have heard rumours that Clarence Mitchell is finding the pressure of defending the McCanns almost unbearable and is actively considering an offer to be the spokesman for Osama Bin Laden.
Finnaly...
Thanks Steve
Is there any way to refresh the page (in case there are recent posts) without having to exit the HaloScan page and re-enter it again from the True Crimes Weblog?
This time is not 24 that is quoted by british press, but the contrary, I think.
24 horas is quoting british press.
This is relevant for who gives some relevance to the leaks.
Even some field agents didnt have the capacity of control their feelings and the stress anymore (like Gonalo Amaral), PJ like a global instituition its keepping the pieces together.
I am curious about what "Damage Controller" Mitchell will do in the next few days.
I see that not all newspapers are controlled by Controller Mitchel.
The democracy still works.
Yeah you got that right Stanley. Stiff upper class bank balance (not lip) these days for some.
You know sometimes I wonder about people who don't appear to have morals and principals, can't be empathic, don't question and try to understand. Why is narcisism 'in vogue' these days with people out for what they can get, smiling to the world whilst shirking resposibilities, milking the tragedies that beset them in life for self publicity & income and stepping on folk that come their way.
Well I can't be like that and I'm incredibly surprised by how many people can be.
But what surprises me even more are the people who support them in doing it!
On this particular case Re: Madeleine there are far too many narcissists, so many that they cloud sound judgement, but lets prevail anyway:
* No it's not right to leave infants and toddlers alone for any amount of time in these circumstances
* No it's not right to interfere /not cooperate with the law of the land in their duty and attempt to prujudice the outcome
* No it's not right to create a fund from monies donated from the public that contains a constitution 'to support the family financially' when the objective of the fund is to find a missing child
* No it's not right to tell lies and expect friends to cover for you
* No it's not right to be shocked that you are held responsible for your own actions and omissions
* Yes it is okay to admit your failings and strive for integrity
As for Clarrie M. who cares? He takes the money and says what the McCs want, he's no better for it but he's a fool because when the tide fully turns I'm sure he'll rue the day he volunteered for the job.
Lizbee going off to bed nan-night
@ Billie | 10.09.07 - 7:54 pm | #
Is there any way to refresh the page (in case there are recent posts) without having to exit the HaloScan page and re-enter it again from the True Crimes Weblog?
Yes, just refresh (or reload) the page as you would any page in your browser. If you can't see the reload/refresh icon, often the shortcut is the F5 key.
Also you can bookmark the comments page - as I have - and it should load whenever you click the bookmark (so you don't have to go through the various clicks on Truecrimes). That I think will be the case till/if the thread has to be closed and another one opened by admin (Steve).
I am really interested in finding out what happened to Madeleine. If the parents are guilty, so be it but I don't understand why people who already KNOW that the McCanns are guilty even joined this thread.
Is it just to vent their hostility towards the McCanns and everyone around them?
I am appalled by some of the judgmental and venimous comments made here.
k.
Kids all together or not? It doesn't make a big difference either way does it, except for what was originally told.
Could this be another spin...that everyone goes off on a tangent and does not focus on the DNA "that adds pieces to the puzzle". The DNA that is similar (not conclusive though) but different from the brother, sister and parents? The transfer theory has been taken into account (supposedly ruled out(?). Other relatives used the car, (but DNA is supposedly not them), so...are we to believe they are the ones to plant evidence?
This situation is going way out to lunch "without" facts! I have seen a real turn in the public, without facts that are backed-up. I am very concerned as the public is demanding the truth, but...we are getting nothing from officials and this seems to be turning into a witch hunt, which is getting worse by the minute!
I will be the first one to say, I have faulted McSpins's on "their behavior, given the circumstances" (not following the protocol which they are well aware). Lawyers, bad advice or not...but what I have read in other forums...it's a mess; and not fair to Maddie or the truth. Do I believe they have dug their own hole, "YES", but we need the PJ & police to provide the public with the facts (or some). I see this as getting dangerous and laws need to be changed fast or as I have said before "both sides need to shut-up", but that's not going to happen.
Sorry, I am fed up...just back to this site land of better reason or open to the truth (as we don't know the truth)."
So they found DNA traces of all of the children in the room.
Pardon my mild exasperation, but so what?
If I went on vacation with my family and/or friends, you'd better believe that you'd find the DNA of all the other children in my room. And their parents. And you'd find mine, my husband's, and my children's in theirs.
Find me a DNA test that can tell me definitively that those children were there between 6:30 and 10:30pm on May 3, and then I'll think it means something. Until then, it means they were on vacation together (which we've known from the very beginning).
Oh, and hello, everyone! I missed you guys. :D
Seriously. I checked at least once every two hours to see if this post had been backed up here yet.
Thank you so much, Steve, for giving us all a place to get back together.
Karina
I agree I too am interested in finding out the truth about what happened to poor m.
What do people think about the mccanns hiring their own dna expert?
Thanks "A reasonable man" but I can't bookmark the comments section because it is displayed in a separate box called HaloScan.comments and it is not connected to my browser toolbar thus the refresh and bookmark buttons are not available. But I will try to refresh using F5.
Thanks, "A reasonable man", F5 works beautifully.
Ali,
In regards to the McCanns hiring their own DNA experts, that is pretty much standard procedure and I am sure they did it on the advice of their attorneys.
DNA is a huge factor in this case and if some results point in the McCanns direction, it's perfectly OK for them to ask for a second opinion.
Check this out
http://tinyurl.com/24lqvd
They are now interviewing some British tourists who stayed at the Ocean Club at that time and getting DNA samples
What took them so long?
Karina,
Great link. I've always thought I remembered a report saying that they found DNA they couldn't identify. I've been wondering what they did with it, and why it disappeared from the news so fast.
Maybe it got dropped because it made the "no evidence of a kidnapper" stories less convincing. Maybe it got dropped because the police didn't want to find out who it belonged to. Maybe it got dropped because it wasn't true. Maybe it got dropped because someone was working on it behind the scenes and didn't want anyone to know.
Who knows? But it definitely gives us a new angle to explore, if true.
DC - I agree about the DNA and made this point above (somewhere/no numbers) but there are also (we are told) witnesses that said that the T9 only went to the McCanns apartment.
Karina - I realise that I, and I think this may have happened to others, have slipped into a McGuilty assumption, even though I don't actually know (or even definitely believe) this. I think this is because of unanswered questions + the objection to the McSpinning + too much reading of the mirror forum. As AndyT pointed out somewhere above they are presumed innocent until proven guilty - and (possibly) more likely to be innocent than guilty. So I am reclassifying myself as neutral with McSceptic overtones.
The McCanns have denied that more children were sleeping together so I guess the abduction theory does not have to address this. In fact the demand for evidence for abduction does not even hold water if the patio doors were unlocked - someone could slip in and out without leaving any signs of having been there surely (without readdressing the cuddlecat business). What counts against this however is the McCanns own shifting story - can this be put down to confusion and panic?
Karina - your link above - I would suggest that they have been told by the examining Judge to eliminate all possible leads. I don't think this is a new line of enquiry but just a way of making their case more water tight. They are not looking for a kidnapper but just trying to prevent a defense case built round an incomplete examination.
"So I am reclassifying myself as neutral with McSceptic overtones."
John, I like that classification
I am still on the side of the McCanns being innocent but I could easily switch to the other side if I heard persuasive evidence. There are definite issues which bother me on this case but not enough to be convinced that it's not an abduction.
"They are not looking for a kidnapper but just trying to prevent a defense case built round an incomplete examination."
YES, that's problably true. Should the Mccanns be charged, the defense will pounce on anything that has been overlooked, like 50 other DNA's!
K.
Karina - if you are in the UK - why are you up at 4:00 am.? I hope this business isn't giving you more sleepless nights!
DC - I agree about the DNA and made this point above (somewhere/no numbers) but there are also (we are told) witnesses that said that the T9 only went to the McCanns apartment.
I apologize for missing your comment, John. I'm still having a bit of difficulty settling into the new layout of the comment section, and I'm starting to feel like I missed a lot of them.
I like your classification for yourself, too. Personally... I know I come off as a supporter, but I'm really not. I just really believe in innocent until proven guilty, and I'm a far, far way from having it proven to me that the McCanns did anything wrong, aside from leaving their children alone in the apartment. I've thought all along - since long before Clarence Mitchell said it, at any rate - that there are perfectly innocent and logical (at least to parents of young children) explanations for everything that's being leaked to the press as "damning new evidence."
The one that gets me the most is the contradictory statements that so many people, more in other places than here, claim are such strong "proof" that they're lying.
You know what? My youngest is five, and if she disappeared from my hotel room in a foreign country... when the police interviewed me, I'd have a hard time telling them my own name, let alone where I'd been, who I'd seen, what I'd said, what I'd eaten, what I remembered, and what I'd done for the past 24 hours.
John,
It's only 9:40pm here in California. But I am logging off to watch a movie.
I'll get up early tomorrow to read more of the tabloids. I had never read British tabloids before this case
K.
Maddie and her siblings were really drugged
Conclusion from the Portuguese and English Laboratories
Sedatives were given to the toddlers.
Maddie and her siblings were sedated in the apartment where they were staying, in Praia da Luz, with four other children, in the night of the disappearance of the little girl, the 3rd of May. This conviction of the PJ is funded on the first preliminary results coming from the laboratory of Birmingham reports the 24 Horas today.
The 24 Horas reports that the PJ is elaborating a theory that the siblings were sleeping with three other children of the McCann's friends when something happen to Maddie.
It's proven that Maddie and her siblings were sedated by the Laboratory of Birmingham and by the Portuguese national institute of forensic medicine. But there is no proof that the other children were sedated.
The Jornal de Noticias reports that Paulo Rebelo takes up today his duties as chief coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department of Portimo. He is under the direct orders from the PJ national director, Alipio Ribeiro.
Paulo Rebelo, accompanied by Alipio Ribeiro, will meet today Guilhermino da Encarnao and Gonalo Amaral. Although Gonalo Amaral is no longer the chief coordinator of Portimo, he is still investigating in the Maddie case.
"I had never read British tabloids before this case "
- lucky you, Karina.
OK, so the revisit to the apartment was most probably so the new officers could get a feel for the events on 3 May.
If we are to believe the leaks about the sedation of the kids - then this would explain how 7 or 5(?) children could settle down to sleep together. But I still don't understand how they reached the conclusion that only the McCann apartment was checked. How could anyone know where they went when they left the Tapas Bar - as, as we all know, the apartment is not in the line of site.
This scenario implies the conspiracy of two or three couples and not just the McCanns - I find this implausible - they are all prepared to cover up a serious crime in the light of all this media pressure. The only motivation would be that they are jointly responsible and I don't see how that could be.
karina, if you are interested in a good laugh and finding out more about British tabloids, i recommend :
Stick It Up Your Punter!: The Uncut Story of the "Sun" Newspaper (Pocket books) by Peter Chippindale and Chris Horrie
The Insider: The Private Diaries of a Scandalous Decade by Piers Morgan (ex editor of the daily mirror)
is also very funny and shocked me by how often he got to have dinner with the prime minister. Tabloid editors really do have the ear of the govt!
In that theory reported in the 24 Horas, I think that the three children present in the McCann's apartment could only be the ones of the Oldfields (1 child) and the Russels (2 children): 1 +2 =3.
Fiona and David Payne used a baby monitor to check on their two children. Therefore I exclude that their children were with the others.
for those of you abroad who would like to listen to the Womans hour interview on radio 4 with kate mccann some weeks back:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/
wo.........._wed.shtml
Is it now fact that the McCann children were sedated? If this is so then accidental death is most likely. The more I think of this case the more I'm convinced that K&G are covering something up. The very fact that they said they in no way contributed to the child going missing speaks volumes to me. Surely any parent with a missing child would feel some sort of remorse. It sits uneasily with me this we did no wrong attitude. Who was the last person supposedly to check on Madeleine? This whole case is covered with inaccuracies that to try to get any sense from it is well near impossible. One thing is true - the parents have not been consistent and this is surely a red flag.
Re Maggie "Who was the last person supposedly to check on Madeleine?"
Matthew Oldfield was the last to check McCann's apartment at 21h30.
He admitted only listening at the door or just popping his head round.
The Correio da Manh reports today that the PJ wasn't in Praia da Luz and did not do an investigation in the apartment rented by the McCanns, on the contrary to what has been said in the British newspapers.
pdg, i just listened to some of that radio 4 interview. That snoffy interviewer, Jenny whatshername, sounds like a real snake. Dangerous !!! She should go and work for the PJ
Thanks for that Jose. I suppose technically speaking it was Kate McCann in her 10.00pm check. I also believe it was the Paynes who had the listening devices and it was Fiona Paynes mum Diane Webster who was with them so they did not check. Rachael Oldfield also didn't leave the table. The Paynes only have one child. The Oldfields have two, Tanner/Russell, one and the McCanns three.
pdg - got a 404 on that interview, but I've heard it before.
AndyT - "snoffy interviewer, Jenny whatshername"
snoffy is a great word wotsit mean?
Jose - now we know the detectives back at the apartment was rubbish maybe the 7 kids in one room is next?
Click this sentence to go to an entry posted to allow for a new "open thread."
I've included some helpful tips on how best to use these comments.
Steve
Hi all! And thanks a million, Steve, we were really deprived of each other!
I have a question - hope it wasn't posted yet, didn't read all the comments yet (will do so now):
Why are only Britons asked to provide DNA/fingerprint samples? How can PJ know the unidentified samples they found are from Britons? Surely there must have been other nationalities at the resort and around the area at the time?
Great point Martina, also you would think they would need the previous renters of the McCann apt. as well.
I am not buying this all in one room theory of the kids at all & of course the kids DNA would be there as well probably as the adults in each room. I would find it more strange if it weren't. May just be a good excuse to call everyone back in for questioning, which I trust will be done, hopefully soon. Then I hope they re-do that 3-d thing.
Missed you all nice to be back!!!
This certainly is a case that is mystifying hundreds .... I do feel it is thanks to the misleading statements of the McCanns and Tapas9 that we are confused. It would be nice if they could get their statements straight so we can clarify a few things...firstly the grandma stated they all checked on their own children, the tapas 7 stated they checked on each others, then just their own, then it appears they all didnt leave the tapas bar so only some checked, i tell you this is definately an argument for CCTV - which until now i didnt agree with - Big Brother is watching and all that, but if we had it then the 2uncertainty" wouldnt occur. Lastly I cannot help but wonder why there is so much uncertainty to me i guess it looks like they all have something to hide - not the McCanns guilt - i do not think any friend would "help" that much to hide things BUT perhaps they are all guilty of leaving the children home alone!!!
Hi Lynn! A new Open Thread has been opened here
http://tinyurl.com/2ox85a
Well, I've followed this thread for weeks now, but to me (as a mother) it's the inconsistencies that make the McCanns (and the Tapas bunch) suspect.
I feel desperately sorry for them all - I can so easily see how a sudden tragedy overwhelmed them. Maybe they WERE used to 'sedating' their kids so they all conveniently went to sleep, together, and at the same time. Sure, it's not something that I would do, but I can see how a bunch of medical people would think it was an ok thing to do seeing as they would understand the technical side of things.
I can also see how, if you 'know' that all the kids are 'asleep', you wouldn't have to be too vigilant in checking on them - after all, you 'know' that they're all 'safe'/asleep.
I'm, oh, so far from thinking that it's an acceptable thing to do, and it's certainly not what I would ever have done. But, I can see that (especially after a number of glasses of vino) events overtook them.
Not justifying it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a scenario like this turned out to be the truth. What happened to poor Maddie after she accidentally died, I don't know. I guess the people involved 'snapped into action' without properly thinking through what they were embarking on.
I suspect they're now embroilled in a horrid tangled web that they feel irrevocably stuck in.
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