Thanks for covering this story, Steve. I've been trying to get more information on it. My grandfather lives in a retirement community right around the corner from New Life Church, and I have visited the church before in a work capacity, so I'm very curious to hear more information when it is available. I did hear that there was a suggestion that the description of the shooter at New Life was similar to the description of the shooter at YWAM, but I do not know if that has been confirmed.
Linnea, go here and write me an e-mail if you hear anything interesting, I'll e-mail you back from my personal address.
Thanks.
Steve
Statistically, the holidays see a rise in domestic violence. I would say that we are seeing this play out even though it isn't domestic. That we know, yet.
Personally, I think that some of the world has lost is ever loving mind. And I think one reason is that the more society becomes P.C., and forgets or chooses not to teach their children the "golden rule" (GOD, in my eyes), the more society embraces a "victim mentality" (the world has "done me wrong" and nothing is MY fault") we'll continue to see more and more violent outbursts, with no regard for life, itself.
I'm still waiting to get more specific information, but if the reports coming out from church members that the gunman at New Life Church was killed by an armed security guard at the church are true, then that guard probably saved a lot of lives. It sounds like there were hundreds of people there when the gunman opened fire.
It's not very common for churches to have armed security guards, but if New Life didn't have them before, they probably got them to deal with all the furor surrounding Ted Haggard's dismissal.
From Foxnews.com:
"About 7,000 people were on the campus at the time of the shooting, Boyd said. Security at the church had been beefed up after the early morning shootings in Arvada, he said.
Soobs - very very well said. Couldn't agree with your comment more.
Why did the mission group turn the gunman away the first time? Did they say? Just wondering if that would be a clue as to why the killing spree (if it's the same guy)
I'm guessing because it was midnight? I know that they have, in the past, allowed someone to spend the night there. I think the late hour, and probably a feeling they had.
It does seem that following a nationally covered school/office/public shooting, similar attacks follow withing days or weeks. It really is almost like clockwork.
Hope you are feeling better soon, Steve. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Definitely sounds like YET another disturbed young person lashing out, whether the target was specific or symbolic. (or a bit of both perhaps.)
Why Matthew Murray "hated" Christianity is anyone's guess. There is an awful lot of speculation floating around out there as to what his motives were. My best guess is that those questions will be answered (for the most part) by things that he left behind.
There's no easy way of saying this, but after reading the 365gay.com article, as well as knowing a little bit about the Youth With a Mission and New Life, I can't help but feel that perceived "hypocrisy" has everything to do with this tragedy.
http://www.nebraska.tv/Global/st...2&
nav=menu605_2
" Police in court papers say the gunman believed to be behind attacks at a megachurch and a missionary training school in Colorado had been thrown out of the school about three years ago.
In court papers today, police said the gunman had been sending hate mail to the program. The gunman -- identified by a law enforcement official as 24-year-old Matthew Murray -- is believed to have killed four people."
The hero of this story:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/...480/
detail.html
From Luke's link:
"Assam had several years of experience in law enforcement and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service."
God Bless her. You know, someone complained in the thread about the mall shooting, how having a CCW, would put others at risk. I think in this instance, she saved many, many lives.
God bless women with firearms
This proves that guns save lives. If it were easier for law abiding citizens to carry a weapon, there wouldn't be nearly as many of these mass random killings, and of the ones that inevitably happen anyway because of mentally deranged killers, lives will be saved if someone nearby has a weapon for self protection.
If someone in that mall in Omaha had been carrying a firearm in their purse, lives could have been saved. If nobody is allowed to have a gun, everybody is as helpless as fish in a barrel when a nutcase opens fire.
It's never as easy as saying, "This proves that guns save lives."
Spend some time in an ER or a morgue, like I have, and then tell me about how "guns save lives."
It's just too bad there is no 100% fool proof way of making sure that guns do not get into the wrong hands. Sadly, the more guns, the better chance of this happening.
Luke, in order to carry a concealed weapon, most (all?) states require testing. And background checks. States don't give CCWs to just anyone. Just those that prove they are responsible. In THAT case, your scenerio isn't true. Those that carry a CCW, are a better shot, and better equipped than one who isn't carrying a gun, and certainly I'd rather they be around, it a gunman came upon me, with the intent to kill.
Soobs,
I've just seen too much to accept, "Guns save lives," as a blanket statement.
A person who has a license to conceal a weapon has to keep it stored someplace when they are not carrying it. This increases the likelihood that the gun will fall into the wrong hands, be they the hands of a child or a criminal. (I have witnessed the aftermath of both scenarios, more times than I wish I had.)
I know the argument.... keep the gun unloaded and under lock and key, away from children and criminals alike. I'm also familiar with the argument that not having a gun readily accessible in a time of need is about as useful as not having a gun in a time of need.
If that's not bad enough, it isn't unheard of for licensed and trained professionals using their equally licensed weapons to take a life, whether premeditated or in the heat of emotions.
If you can't trust a cop with a gun, who the Hell can you trust???
It's all good and well to hypothetically feel comforted by the idea of someone with a concealed weapon and training being present during a gun related crime. I would just like to know that they can do a little more than shoot straight and remember to keep the safety on.
You can never tell how a person is going to react in any given situation. What if the civilian carrying a weapon panics? What if they add to the casualty list by misfiring under duress? What if in a hostage type situation they actually endanger hostages, rather than protect them?
I personally am neither for or against guns, nor am I against anyone's rights to own a weapon (within reason) to protect their home. Too be honest though, I'm not sure where I stand on a person's right to protection, if that means producing a firearm under stressful/traumatic conditions.
I bet there have been more people killed by good people who had guns and used them in self defense, or the defense of others, than people killed by accident during the attempted prevention of a crime. In other words, I don't EVER recall hearing a story about someon pulling their weapon to stop a criminal and accidentally killing an innocent bystander. I am sure it has happened, but it has to be rare.
Hi Steve, I hope you're feeling better soon.
I googled an excerpt from what this Matthew Murray guy reportedly posted online in between shootings. It turns out his words were a close match to Eric Harris' (of Columbine). Not exactly, but close enough for it to be more than mere coincidence.
From Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,316387,00.html
According to the station, which did not identify the site, Murray wrote, "I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ...God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."
According to KUSA, if the time on the posting is accurate, it was posted after the 12:30 a.m. shooting Sunday morning in Arvada and before the 1:10 p.m. Sunday afternoon shooting in Colorado Springs.
From: http://www.time.com/time/magazin...92873-
5,00.html
"I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the f___ing teeth and I WILL shoot to kill." He rails against the people of Denver, "with their rich snobby attitude thinkin they are all high and mighty... God, I can't wait til I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame. I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you as I can, especially a few people. Like Brooks Brown."
This brings me back to my comment the other day about the Mall shooting... can society do anything to prevent glamorizing these murderers? I'm at a loss. It's all so tragic. Maybe there isn't anything we can do in terms of how we relay the news. Maybe it's just the way the sickened minds work. I hope not though, because it's a helpless feeling to think we are powerless to prevent this from happening over and over again.
Actually, his words are almost an exact match to Harris's. I knew I smelled a whiff of Harris & Klebold in this.
http://www.gazette.com/articles/
...people_new.html
He killed 2 teenage sisters. 16 and 18. How on earth as a parent do you go on after both your children are taken from you? The father was shot in the abdomen and is in stable condition. I sure hope their faith is incredibly strong to get them through this one.
This kid definitely had some demons. You can take that figuratively or literally, both work.
Sheila, thank you for posting those links. Everyone, please note the newest update to this entry -- the Rocky Mountain News was wrong -- many of nghtmrchld26's posts can still be found, as of Tuesday morning.
Many of them are much more interesting than his just plagiarizing Eric Harris (Murray did a lot of plagiarizing -- he passed off death metal song lyrics on that message board as if they were his own poems.)
Steve
Generally speaking, I don't like to wallow in the psycho-babble "he needed help" quagmire with these kind of nutcases. I am more inclined to descend into the "he is a self-centered jerk that chose to be miserable in life, and it is all about free will - and he chose wrong" quagmire. After reading some of his postings....and those of other people on that website for "Ex Pentacostals", I just am not sure how I feel about this guy.....except to say that I am glad he is dead, and out of society. I feel horrible for his family, and of course, for the families of those he harmed. I am also beginning to wonder if maybe we need to start some sort of analysis of the water system our society is drinking from. It sure seems like the whole world is going insane.
I've heard countless stories depicting New Life and YWAM as, "cult like," and steeped in hypocrisy. While it's always touchy to bring up topics of conversation that may be perceived as an attack on one's denomination, I do think it's safe to say that hypocrisy (whether perceived or real) drove Matthew Murray towards carrying out his horrific "revenge" plot.
Wonder how long it will take the media to explore the tireless music/movies/video games angle in full? So far they've eluded to Marilyn Manson, Linkin Park, and Steve has already pointed out Murray's plagiarizing of Metal lyrics, as well as a Columbine connection of sorts.
For the record, my personal belief is that media acts only as a trigger for those who are already predisposed to commit atrocious acts. Such is the case with this disturbed young man.
"For the record, my personal belief is that media acts only as a trigger for those who are already predisposed to commit atrocious acts."
I couldn't have said it any better, Luke. Some news outlets never tire of trying to blame the medium, though. It sells.
i am trying to find a picture of matthew murray. I was at the 11:00 service on sunday, but left early. A kid came and sat behind me and there is little doubt in my mind that it was him. CAn anyone help?
This is from the anti-pentacostal forum he's a member of. Guess this is why he went to Ted Haggard's church...
"Yeah Diamond girl, when I was a teenager my mother would do a pat down to check for music, DVDs and video games whenever I came out of an electronics store like Best Buy or Circuit City. I'd still obtain things anyways, it was like getting drugs from a drug dealer, EVERYTHING had to be done in secret. lol
I remember getting thrown around the room and hit while getting interrogated about whether or not I had video games and DVDs. Then there were the constant interrogations by the church pastors. @#%$ hypocrites.
I remember having to listen to everything in secret, at very low volume levels or with headphones, whether it was video games, TV, DVDs, or music/radio. Every day was like Mission Impossible, as even ONE mis-step and it could be all over.
My mother would search EVERYWHERE on a regular basis. You'd have thought I was hiding methamphetamines(which her favorite pastor, Ted Haggard was found guilty of) or something serious....but it was all over DVDs, Cds, and video games, the issue of drug abuse or the like never came up. And when she confiscated something, she'd almost never tell me. She'd always pretend like she had no idea what I was talking about, until I had her cornered with evidence....so much for "Liars go to the lake of fire.""
http://p223.ezboard.com/
pentecos...icID=1656.topic
"I couldn't have said it any better, Luke. Some news outlets never tire of trying to blame the medium, though. It sells."
It also seems equally lost on these same news outlets that their 24/7 coverage of such events is almost certain to lead to similar acts, that their all encompassing coverage may have the same effects on these individuals already predisposed towards committing violent acts.
"i am trying to find a picture of matthew murray. I was at the 11:00 service on sunday, but left early. A kid came and sat behind me and there is little doubt in my mind that it was him. CAn anyone help?"
Wow, that is just freaky, Bridget! Glad you are safe. 
Curiously, I have yet to see a photo of Murray. I'm kinda picturing him as a stereotypical Emo/goth kid. I know, bad...
"Like many antisocial personalities"
(from Steve's update)
I agree 100%. I hesitate to agree that the denomination is "cult-like", after all, as far as we know, he's the only one who has gone on a shooting spree (unlike other true cults - David Koresh, anyone?) And I agree with Kim, HE had some demons, figuratively or truly.
I also believe that games, music, whatever can be a TRIGGER for those who are unstable. But again, they are NOT the "reason."
Another Comment about Ted Haggard and this time he mentions Youth with a Mission:
http://p223.ezboard.com/
fexpente...icID=1780.topic
"Harry Potter was considered to be "the new age satanist training manual for children that witches are trying to use in these end-times to promote satanism"
Interesting that Methamphetamine use and pedophilia were never on any of those lists......(maybe that's how Ted Haggard and other un-named christians excuse their various christian activities?)
I've since realized that these things were all based on fear and that the REAL evil and abuse was/is to be found in these pentecostal dominionist churches and authoritarian groups such as Youth With A Mission."
More from that same link:
"Well, I got all fed up with the insanity, hypocrisy, conflicting doctrines, the and lack of absolute answers in regards to “salvation,” heaven and hell and other theological issues, the child abuse, brainwashing, lies, gossip, scandals, threats and fear mongering. I got tired of always hearing “oooohh, you’re saved by grace, not by works!” “Everybody loves you! Jesus loves you!” only to hear about how I was going to hell for watching “The simpsons” or could lose my salvation and could never be certain if 30 years from now I might lose it due to some odd sin and die in an accident and end up in this eternal hell preached to us day and night.
Me, I found a new Law to live by and I realized……I don’t have to be abused nor submit to these liars and their lies nor do I have to be afraid of this make-believe hell and false theory of salvation which no fundamentalist Christian could ever give solid answers on.
Me and many others are waking up.
We will rise up above and against these abuses against humanity.
Men will no longer be ruled by fear and superstition, oppressed by bigotry and tyranny."
I've known families like this. My brother in law's mother is like that and she now has a teen daughter who is rebelling in a MAJOR way. (We are talking the difference between good little Christian honor student and coke addicted runaway.)
It's sad, she was such a lovely young lady the last time I saw her.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11...outh/
index.html
Picture of him there.
Will the media continue to label this crime "senseless" and "random" given what was written here?
So sorry guys, should have visited truecrimeweblog before commenting. Should have known Steve would have already put all that stuff on there. Lesson learned...
So what is the deal here? Was Matthew a self absorbed brat? Mentally Ill? Product of disfunctional upbringing? Is everything Matthew posted online a figment of the voices he was hearing? Or has his actions opened a can of worms?
While Jeanne Assam did everyone a great service by stopping Matthew from causing further harm. Go watch her speak at the press conference and count the times she says "God".
thank you for the link. My husband and I believe this is the man that came half way through service, after worship and sat behind us. I was told through impressions during worship to leave the church. Finally having a vision of a bullet to the back of my head and telling my husband and he thought it was a good idea to leave. I don't know what to make of all this and my part of it. But thank you for the help.
I feel the need to comment that while Matthews posts are filled with pain and disturbing. IMO, they do not seem delusional. Was he truly hearing voices? I will be interested to hear if this was truly the case.
SuziQ, I had the same question, about whether or not he was truly hearing voices, or if he was just being an anti-social jerk that was messing with the heads of the other people.
Bridget, you didn't feel the need to warn anyone else?
I doubt the voices ever existed.
It is my belief that "the voices," separated him even further from the mainstream/Christian society that he so despised, and that in his eyes, rejected him....for not being one of "The Beautiful People." (Not surprised that this choice of wording mirrors another song title of Marilyn Manson.)
"The Beautiful People"
And I don't want you and I don't need you
Don't bother to resist, or I'll beat you
It's not your fault that you're always wrong
The weak ones are there to justify the strong
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
It's all relative to the size of your steeple
You can't see the forest for the trees
You can't smell your own shit on your knees
There's no time to discriminate,
Hate every motherfucker
That's in your way
[Chorus:]
Hey you, what do you see?
Something beautiful, something free?
Hey you, are you trying to be mean?
If you live with apes man, it's hard to be clean
The worms will live in every host
It's hard to pick which one they eat most
The horrible people, the horrible people
It's as anatomic as the size of your steeple
Capitalism has made it this way,
Old-fashioned fascism will take it away
[Chorus]
There's no time to discriminate,
Hate every motherfucker
That's in your way
The beautiful people
The beautiful people (aahh) [x4]
[Chorus x2]
The beautiful people [x8]
As for SuziQ's question, I think a little bit of all of those insightful observations apply to Matthew.
Luke, I think those lyrics spell exactly what happened to Matthew and why he was so angry. It is NOT ok to go around shooting people. But I have a sneaky suspicion that Matthew is only a small part of the big story here.
Reannan, I agree, I think Matthew was messing with people.
My gut istinct was to yell "run for your lives" But i am not intouch yet with the "gift" God has given me. And I had heard about the YWAM shooting and I'm from Omaha NE, the mall shot up there is in my neighborhood. I thought maybe I was being attacted spiritually.
Would have you warned people?
Bridget, I am a skeptic by nature and that was the reason behind my question. I think some people are born with a really great hinky meter and it's nothing more than that. But that is JMO. I was being a smart a** and I apologize. Whatever your gift is, you should take it more seriously from now on!
If I were Bridget and just at my service and someone made me look twice, I can't say I'd feel justified telling someone "that guy gives me the creeps." The fact that he did something after can make it appear as a bad move - but certainly one we haven't done ourselves a million times. I've seen plenty of people who give me the creeps, but I don't know of one of them who have moved on to commit crimes. If I misunderstood the tone with which you asked Bridget that question, apologies. But I think realizing you were that close to a murderer is enough fear to live with for a while.
I'm glad you're safe, Bridget.
Christen, lol, you did not misunderstand my tone, however, I did not mean it to be mean-spirited at all. And I don't want to take this topic off topic. To answer my own question, yeah, if something seemed off then I would have said something to security or someone.
Whether or not Matthew Murray was mentally ill or delusional may never be known for sure; however, I believe there was quite a bit a truth in what he might have been subjected to in his experiences. I, myself, am an evangelical Christian, and sadly, I see too much of the things going on in "Christianity" that Matthew was ranting about. I'll never understand the choice he made in blowing away innocent people. I'm grateful he was stopped before he killed anyone else. I hope he is now with the Lord, and no longer tortured in his own mind.
I apologize for going off-topic (though I think it's a valid tangent considering we all read crime blogs), but SuzieQ brings up an interesting question.
I am, by nature, a paranoid person. With all the events in the world that we know about - by "we" I mean all of use who read crime blogs as part of our daily nutritional intake - how do recognize the line between "paranoid" and "justifiably afraid"?
Someone like Murray may have had an unexplainable yet innate "creepiness" that someone like Bridget could feel - but when do you report it and it's okay, and when do you report it and are met with "You're being paranoid." Because I feel it's safe to say that more times than not, nothing will come of your report to "watch that guy. I read crime blogs and he freaks me out."
I am constantly on guard. And wouldn't you know it? I never trust my instinct to the point that I'll report someone or turn around when I meet a scary person on the street. Not trusting my instinct is what got me mugged in March. I saw him; I knew he could be bad news; but... can't I trust the humanity in people first rather than my own paranoia? Um... shouldn't have! I lost $200 and some really good knitting I had in my bag!
I like being aware of what goes on, who gets hurts, and as sad as it - the depravity of humans. But at the same time - people would call me the local loon if I reported all my suspicions. Anybody else wonder about this? Can email me at my website if interested in discussing further (to avoid being TOO off topic). How many crimes like this could really be prevented, because how many people actually act on people's suspicions?
"While Jeanne Assam did everyone a great service by stopping Matthew from causing further harm. Go watch her speak at the press conference and count the times she says "God"."
Your point? I am not an evangelical Christian, but I'd have been mentioning God every other word. I happen to think it probably WAS divine intervention, especially after reading Ms. Assam's account of HER experience. The fact that so many can discount a first person account, or better yet, roll their eyes, and make fun of those who believe in God, pisses me off, especially at this time of year. We have a lot of people who "don't believe in God," yet have NO problem buying gifts, and taking time off at Christmas.
Yeah, SuziQ, your comment angered me this morning. Especially after the numerous bullshit shootings recently. We can "blame" God and Christianity for these pieces of crap killing people, but we can't thank God for helping someone stop them?? I don't get it.
I have a pretty good hinky meter myself, and frequently wonder about people that seem suspicious. For instance, I work at a large teaching hospital. One day, there was a HUGE moving van parked right up against the door where people enter and exit to the hospital. It isn't unusual to see moving vans located in this area, but they ALWAYS have some sort of company name on them. This one was from U-Haul, the back doors were closed, and there was no one insight who appeared to be connected to the truck. I sat down on a bench for about 30 minutes and watched it. No one ever came who appeared to be the delivery guy. My first thought was of the Oklahoma City bombing, and what a perfect target a hospital would be. Therefore, I called our security guys. When I checked latter, the truck was gone - and not in a big poof! :> I have seen other suspicious people at the mall, and in stores....especially in terms of appearing to be mean to children who were with them. I follow them and report them to security if I feel it is necessary. Sad world, we live in, huh? I do not feel that I am paranoid, however, and I tell people I do not walk around scared all of the time - quiet the opposite, in fact. I compare it to cave people - they were always on the lookout for mastadons and saber-tooth tigers, so we just have different enemies to deal with.
Soobs, my point? My point was not that crediting god is a bad thing. I don't think that at all! I thank God for what I have everyday. My point was, IMO, that Jeanne's demeanor was odd. It was not necesarry for her to say "GOD" in nearly every sentence she spoke. It reeks of being a overzealous and not having a mind of your own. And that I can't ignore when I read what Matthew has written, and may be an indicator of the atmosphere of "New Life Church".
I'm all for religion and freedom of worship, but I draw the line at child abuse no matter what form it comes in.
" My point was, IMO, that Jeanne's demeanor was odd. It was not necesarry for her to say "GOD" in nearly every sentence she spoke. It reeks of being a overzealous and not having a mind of your own"
She's been quoted as saying that she hasn't slept since the shooting, and she'd been on a three day fast. Not to mention, it all happened after Sunday service, where we worship God, in God's house. She very well could still be stunned. But you think it's strange that she credited God "too much?" That it reeks of being overzealous?? I was thinking that if I was confronted with a man with over 1000 bullets, and three guns (two handguns and a rifle) and only had a revolver, and LIVED, the ONLY thing I'd be doing is thanking God. I don't get the idea that we should only Thank God for just so much in our lives, otherwise we don't have a mind of our own. Seriously, I don't understand your thinking on this...and you probably don't understand mine.
"I'm all for religion and freedom of worship, but I draw the line at child abuse no matter what form it comes in."
Child abuse? You base this on his online rantings? I'm not sure what other information you have to form that opinion. He did have a brother after all, who has NOT gone out to kill others. He has a father who has made it his life's work to help others. Their neighbors state they were "very very religious." So is that what makes you think he was "abused??" Because as we can see just from our difference of opinion on how to worship and Thank God daily, you may think that I and "very very religious. I think we get into a very precarious area when we ascribe the word "abuse" to someone just because his parents are religious, and he rants and raves in online formats. After all, we have some proof that he had some mental issues, just by reading what he wrote.
Soobs, not all mentally ill or abused people go out and shoot someone. And forgive me, I should have stated "possible" child abuse. However, I am not ready to ignore the red flags I am seeing.
I'll defend Bridget -- I'm not sure I would have told anyone either. In fact, I might have, at the time, felt hesitant to tell anyone why I felt the need to get out of there, worried that they wouldn't take me seriously, that they might even mark me out as weird.
We've all had hinky feelings at one time or another, and sometimes we've followed them -- but not every time. It's normal to question yourself.
Here is yet another little glimpse into his dark mind. It was from a posting at this link where he is discussing how much he likes a song called "From Cradle to Enslave" by a band called "Cradle of Filth".
Nice.
http://tinyurl.com/32lew5
"Subject: From the Cradle to Enslave - Music Video
Posted By: nghtmrchld26 Friend
Posted At: 10/29/07 8:52 pm
Reply
I saw this band in concert recently, They kicked a**.
Some people say this is "just entertainment," but for me, and some of my friends, the songs bands like this sing are VERY REAL, it's kind of something we can "see" and can feel and in a spiritual sense and we're able to "connect" "into" the music. Very powerful song.....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEZhUeMaixk
You can also read the lyrics to this song at this link:
http://tinyurl.com/2aaaev
One more, and then I will shut up for a while: Here is a link to postings that I had not yet seen from "nghtmrchld26". It would appear from his statements, that HE wanted to blame his current state of mind on Marilyn Manson and Rock and Roll! The article excerpt is taken from:
http://tinyurl.com/ywcj3a
"I have found myself in deep trances and other worlds through the usage of this drug and have found my life radically altered and changed and (sic) by it. I found this drug to be a powerful driving force and easy gateway into a world of sex, other drugs, rebellion, homosexuality, alcoholism and many other dark things," the posting continued. "I have found such an incredible power in this drug that will completely carry one's mind away into a very real spiritual realm. My mind is completely controlled by this drug and there is no way at all for me to break free.
"What is this mind altering life changing drug that has such an incredible power? Well, one of the main persons who has helped make this drug a powerful force in my life has been Marilyn Manson. ... The drug that I use and am addicted to is commonly known in our culture as … Rock Music," said the posting, among many that were removed, National Terror Alert said. "
I am with SuziQ. The red flags were there.
I am an erstwhile poster at that ex-Pente forum. I'm not ex-Pente myself (I'm Catholic) but I have a very dear Pentecostal neighbor about whom I've been concerned. I visited the ex-Pente forum several months ago to gain some insight into some of the weird stuff I was seeing at my neighbor's weekly ladies' prayer group.
While I was at the forum, I saw some of Nightmarechld's posts and found them disturbing. But I never in a million years dreamed that he was capable of something like this. (I haven't visited there in a while and therefore haven't seen some of the more recent stuff. Plus, I never read the weird poems and all that.)
I am NOT by any means excusing this guy; far from it. But it definitely seems to me that something very, very toxic was going on in his family / church situation.
Here is a good example of why it is a futile effort to try and "identify" warning signs in these people. Check out the review's on Amazon.com for the Cradle of Filth "From Cradle to Enslave" CD. There are a LOT of people that really like this stuff, and most of them will NEVER walk into a church and blow away the lives of other people while they blow their own soul straight to Hell. In fact, here is the review by a poster named "John (Ira)" at Amazon. He sounds angry at his old friend "Ben". Perfect example of "seeing" or "hearing" something alarming, but being completely unable to "do" anything about it. Are we supposed to have a secret police force that tracks people down like "John" over at Amazon? We are in a free country (Thank God!), and people can say stupid crap all day long. I sure don't know what the answer is, and I totally agree there were obviously warning signs with Matthew Murray, but these same signs are in thousands of other people.
"By John "Ira" (New Jersey) - See all my reviews
First off, don't let this review fool you. I've been a cof fan since 1999. I love this band, they got me into Black Metal and pretty much the first stepping stone into extreme metal. However, instead of giving a cliche they sold out htis roadrunner that blah blah blah review. I think i'll put it simply like this.
Back when I was a young kid, i had a group of friends. There weren't many of us, we didn't have huge really big birthday parties or anything. We weren't popular or anything. However, we were young (friends for 5 years, from 8-13) my best friend was named Ben. ben was liked by everybody in our group. However, one day he woke up and started acting like everybody e lse, just like the popular kids. Started betraying who he really was and who he once was. He was now accepted by the masses of kids in middle school and had many new friends. However, we hated him at this point. Cradle of Filth, are sorda like Ben. "
I am not sure that this guy's rantings will really help us understand why he did what he did. It really isn't that strange to see teenagers and young adults rebelling against their upbringing or feeling resentment, especially if they were raised in an extremely strict environment. This happens to a lot of people as they grow up.
What needs explanation is why this guy decided that the answer to his resentment was to pick up an assault rifle and start murdering innocent people.
There's just no way any of you will convince me that this guy's web writings alone were reason to send cops at him before he did this. I don't think anything I've blogged gives the idea I thought so, that's for sure.
THE WEB IS FULL OF MUCH MORE VIOLENT, VILE STUFF THAN ANY OF THESE MESSAGES FROM MATTHEW MURRAY -- and most of the people who wrote it won't go killing others anytime soon. Get some perspective, for goodness' sake.
All we've got now is hindsight and maybe a little insight. As it is, I'm beginning to believe that this guy wasn't psychotic like Cho, but psychopathic -- there is a profound difference between those two, one the mainstream media usually gets wrong. I am a Christian, but not even close to being a fundamentalist or evangelical. Most ultra-conservative Christian types would even tell me that I'm not a Christian if they knew all that I believe. But I can understand the plight of the ex-pentecostals pretty well, and am pretty sympathetic to them, considering that my early church experiences almost turned me against Christianity. I'd imagine many are angry and wounded.
I think Murray's feelings were all on the surface. They didn't run too deep. He probably struck his family as troubled and strange very early on, and this may have influenced his being home-schooled as much as anything. They may have even tried to feed him stories of his "fate" as a way to correct something that couldn't be corrected -- moral insanity (the archaic phrase used to define psychopaths was the designation "morally insane.")
I think his posts were just expressions of pure, barely restrained rage, but they were also conscious attempts to manipulate anyone reading what he wrote -- my cue for this is the plagiarized song lyrics. He wanted others to think he wrote that stuff, when the reality was he just didn't have the emotional depth to put such things together.
Between Klebold and Harris I firmly believe that Klebold was the depressive (as has been written) and that Harris was the psychopath. With Murray, you can believe he was one or the other, as I don't see any signs of real insanity in his words. I believe, due to the calculated violence he committed, that Murray was like Harris -- the psychopath.
Now what worries me is the imitators who will come in his wake. Just as he seemed to find extra inspiration in Robert Hawkins's spree, someone out there right now is looking to Matthew Murray as an inspiration. That shit scares the hell out of me.
Incidentally, it just came out that while many of Jeanne Assam's bullets did hit home, Murray actually killed himself.
MOM MADE HIM DO IT
The Unitarian-leaning, Blue State-living, Jungian-influenced Child of the Enlightenment here. (Go Voltaire!)
What follows may disturb some of you readers. I'm sorry but all true faith in things, even in God as you so choose, begins in doubt, in queries.
IF I'm a professional profiler doing the aftermath review and write up on this, I have to ask the hard questions about Family Context and to separate out what Murray was saying that was true from what at some point was not true.
Not to note that the NLChurch is "cult-like" in its operations and message would be ignoring the obvious. That such an operation attracts people who are even more cult-like in their private living styles, as Murray claims his mother & her family were in calling him "the chosen one", is a psychological and sociological given. That such people use those beliefs as means of control over others is also a given. Sometimes its over non-family members or in creating an extended family or just over your real family members. To say that Murray's claims against his mother specifically are ALL wrong dismisses the likelihood that at least 50% of what he said there & elsewhere is correct. And if so, then yes, it was child abuse.
And child abuse of a cunning kind, thoroughly pyschological, hiding in plain sight, and not physical after a certain point. Home schooling was a means to control and not an end in itself. His father certainly did NOT become an accomplished research physician by being educated at home, nor by not engaging in the world! And what Murray's mother created worked, in that Murray was 24 years old and still living at home, still expecting he'd "come around", "grooming" him for his return to faith with the material goods he couldn't, or wasn't allowed to, earn on his own. Did this person even attempt to go to college? Was he working? Were dad & mom totally supporting him? And if so the latter, WHY?
MOM MAD HIM DO IT, PART TWO
Murry had gotten out as far as he could on his own psychologically by getting to that message board. Women will just cave in to expectations or undermine themselves with drugs (see Luke's post above), or kill themselves. They tend to repress so much inwards that they are their own victims.
Fellows like this, being male, tend to repress to the same degree, but mostly it explodes outwards. That's another sociological given--profiling 101. Murray's anger is of course displaced onto truly "safe" objects, such as the YAWM group (which likely has a lot of hypocrisy in it, as does many another group, such as the Roman Catholic College of Cardinals [Bernie Law, where are you?], and also onto the NLC.
Why do I say its displaced? Because its again a given in psych profiling that the REAL Target of what boiled over as his murderous "24 going on 14" year old rage was HIS MOTHER. And anybody who might have been in the house if he had snapped there. That displacement allowed him to "harm" her in the following way: he proved his mother's "prophesy" correct--he chose to bring her world down in ruins so all could see what she had wrought. "Look, Ma, top of the world!"
Do I think this fellow was a psycho from day one? NO. He was developed as one by his own mother's narcissistic psychopathology which expressed itself through religious terms*, aided and abetted by his father, the good doctor, out saving others but too busy to save his own family.
Footnotes next.
"Soobs, not all mentally ill or abused people go out and shoot someone"
Obviously. I've never, in my entire life, said they did. However, I do believe for THIS person, a mental disorder (not necessarily a disease), drugs (does anyone believe his drug of choice was "music?), rebellion, angst, music, video games, and a lack of faith, all culminated in his taking out his frustrations on the rest of society. And you really have to wonder, WHY he was kicked out of the Missionary school three years prior. This obviously was not an overnight decision on his part.
Again, for us to assume that this was a result only of his religious upbringing, based ONLY on his rantings, is irresponsible, IMO.
footnotes to MOM MADE HIM DO IT
*cf William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience.
**sep footnote. Can a person be held responsible for their own murder? No, of course not. Can a parent's behavior be recognized as a contributory cause to what the child did? Yes, of course. Happens all the time especially in civil law.
Latest criminal example I can give is that hard-assed but fair Kansas State AG Phil Morrison approved 8 year voluntary manslaughter deal for Esmie Tseng because of the way her victim-mother had treated her physically & psychologically in the privacy of their home. (Tseng's father was so going to testify to fact & his own participation & there was physical evidence alluded to in pre-lim hearings. Amy DA could have prosecuted the parents for child abuse.) Morrison even went so far as to have his own office work with her lawyer to write up Tseng's proffer statement with several, but not all, of her Mom's control techniques documented in the public record. It was a "Honey, you chose wrong & your butt's in prison for that choice, but yeah she was truly driving you nuts" deal. Law & Order upheld with recognition of diminished responsibility. That's of course, easier to understand when the perp is 16 years old, hardly been kissed and plays Bach better than JSB's own 17th child.
But 24-year-old man?
So, I'll say it again. Murray had other choices. Primarily not to kill ANYONE. But Mom primed his personality, put the flint in the lock. It was 80% always going to be for him suicide or murder, and in this case he chose both, Samson bringing down his mother's temple.
Robert,
Maybe it's because I have MS, I don't know, but I'm inclined to be sympathetic towards this young man's family. The father, if anything, may have been so deeply involved in his (from what I've seen, successful) career as a neurologist and MS specialist that he didn't really catch some of what was going on.
I'm really beginning to think they were scared of him and now that he was entering his mid-20s, they may have been stumped as to how to handle him. Dad probably made enough money to permit Murray's staying there rent-free, and maybe the family thought they were protecting others by keeping him home.
We'll know, eventually, I'm sure.
I'm probably over-simplifying, but my thinking is -- deeply religious family, the faith promoted most strongly by the mother, has a troubled child. They're stumped. They won't send him to traditional therapists, or if they do, he goes with an instilled attitude of skepticism and distrust. They may have begun to tiptoe around him as he got older and acted out more. Meanwhile, I'd imagine his online postings are giving a misimpression as to how willing Murray was to reach out to others. In real life, I am betting he had few friends at all. I don't believe his random references to friends in some posts.
To sum up, because I'm getting vertigo again -- fundamentalist family has disturbed child. Evidence showed early, whether they ever admit it or not. They try and cope with it through faith. This doesn't work. By his early 20s, they're stumped, and may feel as if they could at least keep an eye on him if he stayed at home. His sister and brother live elsewhere -- why would they be on their own or at least away from home and Matthew Murray not? Wouldn't a parental control issue extend to all the kids? Doesn't look like it did, here.
I think the Murrays were aware that they had a ticking bomb in Matthew, and I think they may have done as much as they knew how to do. But they could never have been prepared for something like this.
I'm speaking as the brother of a man whom many feared might go out violently. My parents did the very best they could with him at nearly every turn, even after he was well into his 30s, but he still killed himself. It may have been a mark of my mom's & dad's success with my brother that he only killed himself. I loved my brother, but he was potentially dangerous, and the family knew this by the time he was 11 or so.
"He was developed as one by his own mother's narcissistic psychopathology which expressed itself through religious terms*, aided and abetted by his father, the good doctor, out saving others but too busy to save his own family."
Wow Robert, that's a LOT of supposition on your part. Not just the part I quoted, but the entire two posts. And yes, he DID go to college, and dropped out. He then either applied to another college, or was going to, but claimed it was too expensive. Hardly a "mother trying to control her child." Especially given that her other child is in college, out of state. Interesting as well, how you know the father was out "healing" the world, but didn't/couldn't heal his own family.
As for me, I'll take everything the murderer has written, with a ton of salt. If I didn't, then I'd also have to believe that Joseph Duncan really WAS "returning Shasta" or "turning himself in" or just "getting back at society" for they way he was treated. After all, we know that manipulators always say things to do exactly that....manipulate.
Take care of yourself NOW, Steve.
Highest regards.
I stand by my "blanket" statement, that guns save lives. Murray certainly fits the profile of most school shooters. He feels outcast and picked on by what he perceives as the more popular people in class, or in his case, church. His answer is to shock everybody by walking in with guns firing and random people falling and dying. That's how the school shooter pays back his tormentors.
It is more often than not, that when a nutcase starts shooting, nobody else has a firearm with which to stop the tragedy. If more people at large gatherings such as classrooms, church services, and shopping malls and workplaces had firearms, they could stop the nutcase shooter, thereby saving lives. Therefor, guns save lives.
Nutcase shooters are going to happen. It's a reality we are going to have to face. Outlawing guns is not going to stop them. We should however stop selling guns to the mentally ill, as they did in the case of the Virginia Tech shooter. If one of the teachers there had a firearm (they couldn't because it was a "firearm free" zone) dozens of lives might have been saved.
On another subject here, I don't want to stir a hornet's nest, but Murray's mother sounds like a nutcase as well. I don't believe in Christianity myself, and I have nothing against people who do. I do believe in God.
I shudder every time I hear phrases like "end times" or "a lost and dying world." I think there is a lot of uncalled for "doom and gloom" and "demon paranoia" related to some individual cliques or organizations within the Christian religion.
The world is not "lost and dying" and even if our economy and civilization itself collapsed, it would not be the "end of the world." I think overly dwelling on "end times" thinking is not healthy. Murray and his mother are a case in point.
Love your blog Steve. I hope you are feeling better soon.
I found a myspace site that very well might belong to Murray. The rantings, use of poems/lyrics, and taste in music are very similar. The age and location match, and the person has not logged on since 12/08/07. I find it interesting that the "sexual orientation" is "not sure" and the "About me" section ends with "Read our [why our?] blog for more."
I am hesitant to post a link since I am not sure, but feel free to contact me Steve if you want me to email the link to you.
Also, a marriage certificate was issued in Arapahoe County to a Matthew John Murray in 2001. Does anyone know if the "J" stands for "John?"
I was raised in a very very religious home, with my sister who's 4 years older than me. My parents are wonderful people that would give you the shirts off their back. Mom was the religious one, dad never really talked much. I know all about not being able to listen to rock music, not being able to watch many tv shoes or movies (had to sneak to watch Solid Gold and Grease), wasn't allowed to dance, didn't go to prom, shoot, at one point mom thought bowling was a sin.
Do I live like this today? Nope. But my faith is very strong in God/Jesus and I value my parents and the upbringing they gave us. Even though it was over-zealously religious, it was also filled with love and support and encouragement.
My sister on the other hand, a now famous romance writer, has chosen an opposite view. She views our parents as child abusers and resents her upbringing to the Nth degree. We haven't spoken in months because I finally got tired of her bullshit lies about my parents that her romance filled netherworld has concocted in her head and told her off.
My sister's a very level headed person, completely incapable of murder, but I can totally see how this Matthew turned all this around and went on his rampage. He thought like my sister does, and held enormous grudges, and throw a little nutso brain disorder in there, and a spree killer you have.
I am curious why people are suspicious of
the mother. Could someone please give me
a link to info on her?
I enjoy this blog so much. Thanks so much Steve for persevering through your MS to keep coverage of this story current.
Lori
Kim and others, I am an atheist an have been virtually all of my life. My parents have little faith and would be considered deists. I have NEVER been violent nor will unless my life is in danger. A lack of faith in a god does not and will never lead a person to death and destruction. However, the opposite has been seen throughout religious history. To suggest that religion does not beget violence needs a serious history education. Furthermore, I do not condone nor find his actions the least bit acceptable but to not place some blame on his over zealously religious mother or seemingly absent father is akin to sticking your head in the sand and ignoring anything that you don't want to hear. Finally, not allowing your children to think for themselves or make their own choices is a form a abuse.
Robert M, you are usually spot-on with your observations, and perhaps time and forthcoming information will validate your observations. Personally, I don't think we really know enough facts to say anything about the parents yet. Thus far, we have the rantings of a hate-filled individual who has probably caused his family great pain for many years. Until we know more information, I would caution us to temper our opinions of the parents with information from sources other than Matthew Murray. The entire argument about the involvement of religion in the pathology of this crime is very pertinent, but will probably end up in the dust bin with the aruments about violent video games, music videos, etc. and the roles they played in past crimes. I am still looking for a drug other than "rock and roll" to be involved. Many nut cases seem to latch onto some sort of platform from which they can spew forth their vitriolic manifestos. For Matthew Murray, it was hatred of religion, the horrid abuse he endured by his parents, and "the Beautiful People" who refused to like his Marilyn Manson music during their worship hour. Due to his propensity to plagerize and copy from others, including Marilyn Manson (The Beautiful People), and Harris and Kleibold from Columbine, I will hazard a guess that this guy didn't have very many original bones in his body. He appears to have been easily influenced, most recently by Robert Hawkins who recently departed the living to join the ranks of Hell in the Omaha, Nebraska mall killings. Hell must be getting pretty crowded.
I should clarify my post above. Although there were red flags at the ex-Pente forum where Matthew posted, no one could have foreseen that he would do this. No one! Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But, as Steve Huff says, crazy stuff is posted on the Internet all the time, yet those who post it don't usually go on shooting rampages.
The "Nightmarechld" posts that I read--and, granted, this was several months ago--were disturbing but not hair-raising. The ones I read seemed more sad and depressed than anything else. I guess I never saw the (later?) ones that were more aggressive and hostile. To me, Nightmarechld seemed like a profoundly wounded soul, but I never would have remotely dreamed that he was homocidal. Never. Neither would anyone else at that forum. They were--are--all in shock.
I think this is what Saint Paul calls "the mystery of iniquity." It's just beyond our human comprehension. We can hash out motives till the cows come home, but we will never plumb the depths or exhaust the breadth of the mystery.
And free will is definitely a factor. KimPossible made an excellent point. Two people can come out of the same family background and react totally differently to their upbringing. This is true in the case of our Pentecostal neighbors. Their college-age daughter is as pious as her parents, dutiful, obedient, virtually problem free. Their teenage son, OTOH, is "rebellious." He has rejected his parents' beliefs and embraced atheism. (To be perfectly honest, I cannot say that I blame him. He has wonderful, loving parents, but that Word of Faith Pentecostal stuff is weird enough so that rejecting [or at least questioning] it strikes me as a perfectly sane and normal reaction. I do not mean thereby to impugn anyone's religion...but let's just say that the whole reason I went to this ex-Pente forum in the first place was that I was seeing some scary stuff in the Pentecostal movement. And I say that as a convinced Catholic Christian who believes in miracles and the whole nine yards. But there's an unhealthy side to anything, I suppose, and IMHO some aspects of Word/Faith Pentecostalism are very unhealthy.)
Anyway, I don't want to say much more; I already feel a twinge of guilt at betraying my neighbors' trust. Let's just leave it at this: the mystery of iniquity. I for one cannot even begin to fathom it.
All I can say is--Lord have mercy.
And it's happened again.
BREAKING NEWS: 6 People Shot at Bus Stop
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/st...y.asp?
S=7482701
"seemingly absent father"
Do we KNOW that is father was absent? Or is this merely conjecture and speculation?
"Finally, not allowing your children to think for themselves or make their own choices is a form a abuse."
LOL. At what age? Permissive parenting is being blamed for a murder and beheading in another post by Steve, by commentors. Now parenting with religion is being blamed. Do you have children, Wes? If so, at what age did you allow them to "make their own choices?" At eighteen, my parenting job with regard to religion has ended. Before then, it's one of my responsibilities, along with not allowing my children to do drugs, or watch R-rated movies. Oh well.
Wes: "...I am an atheist an have been virtually all of my life." [...] "A lack of faith in a god does not and will never lead a person to death and destruction." [...] "To suggest that religion does not beget violence needs a serious history education."
I'm sorry, but whenever an atheist calls for history lessons and claims that religion leads to violence and atheism never leads to violence, I have to point out that Josef Stalin was an atheist and he is credited with killing 20,000,000 people including 14,500,000 people he starved to death.
An atheist holds the world record for killing the greatest number of people and creating the most violence in the history of the world. So who needs a history lesson?
Exactly, Mike. HUMANS beget violence, plain and simple. Normally, I'm not a big fan of absolutes, anyway (never...always...etc)
Okay, now that I've had a bit more time to research my suspicions, I am convinced I have found the myspace site associated with nghtmrchld26 and chrstnghtmr. The postings under both names and the myspace website all refer to the "You raped the soul from the child in me" poem/lyrics.
Here is the website link: http://www.myspace.com/69684771
Notice the poem/lyrics posted on 12/08/07.
That profile says it's from a girl. Did he play one on MySpace?
Wes, I concur with Mike and Soobs, your argument is unfounded. And, for the record, I never said, "A lack of faith in a god does not and will never lead a person to death and destruction." I don't actually remember anyone saying that.
I'm not raising my son the way my mother raised me, in church 24x7 and extremely fanatical, but I am raising him to believe in Jesus (OH NO, I said JESUS!) we DO go to church, and as Soobs said, raising him not to do drugs, not watch inappropriate movies/TV, etc. A parent's role is to give their child direction, and Wes, the parents I know that succumb to the "let your child make his own decisions", most are left with disasters on their hands. I'm not even talking God here, I'm just talking values and moral beliefs.
I don't know his parents well enough to blame them whatsoever. This kid was messed up, so who's to say everything he said online was reality?
Diane, most excellent points. I go to a pentecostal church, though I don't believe in speaking in tongues. It's just such an awesome preacher, that's why we go. Luckily, the pastor frowns upon people speaking in tongues and getting out of hand on Sunday, so I've rarely even seen it. My mom and dad did not raise us pentecostal, so the tongues thing is foreign and very strange to me.
Now, you're correct with some strange happenings in the P church. Not mine, but I'm from the South, and have an uncle that's a P preacher. Weird stuff I've seen over the years, weird stuff. It IS almost cult-like actually. If you want to help your neighbor and ever need advice, I may be able to help, I know more than I'd like to about weird religion. I'm not sure how to get you my email though, I don't post on here very often.
The shooting at the church happened at around 1 pm, that last post was at 3:17 pm. Unless MySpace uses local time, then it would have been 1:17 pm. When he was shooting, or dead, right?
Soobs, you can't trust the MySpace timestamp. It defaults, I believe, to Pacific Time -- the site was founded by Californians.
When I look at the last blog post on the site A directed us to, I see December 8 -- SATURDAY -- and a post time of 12:17 p.m.
The shootings were Sunday.
Here is one not-so-obvious reason as to why I believe A is on to something. From the profile owner's groups: ALL REAL LESBIANS AND BISEXUALS & BEATIFUL GIRLS.
Strikes me as the sort of thing that might drawn a deeply disturbed young man with no actual understanding of women or a life of his own. Very immature guys fantasize about and idealize lesbians when they've never known a lesbian. They don't understand that 9 times out of 10, lesbians are lesbians because they AREN'T INTO MEN.
My point is that it seems like the kind of thing an immature loner like Murray might miss, so he'd sham as a bi or lesbian woman on MySpace with some weird idea of meeting the kinds of women who drew him that way.
"Soobs, you can't trust the MySpace timestamp. It defaults, I believe, to Pacific Time -- the site was founded by Californians.
When I look at the last blog post on the site A directed us to, I see December 8 -- SATURDAY -- and a post time of 12:17 p.m."
Makes sense to me, and I wasn't even looking at the date. Doh!
As for the "bi female", yes, I agree. Which is why I asked if he was "playing one" on MySpace. The rest of it seems to fit in with what's been posted about his online rants, so far.
From the Independant Spirits link -
" Chrstnghtmr LAN_13 Monday 13 August 2007 - 00:02:34
next item on the list: Shock and Scare these !@#$% mormons who keep calling(from 7 different phone numbers) and harassing me about "we'd love to see you at church." I'm glad they've all had such a wonderful experience growing up in mormonism that I never go to have.........."
Am I missing something? Mormons don't usually leave to become Evangelical Christians, do they?
Nope. Not often, I'm guessing.
Here's more evidence to me that this blog actually belonged to Murray. This entry. It was posted by one of the Murray handles at a message board. I saw it earlier today and didn't think much of it until I saw this blog. Murray's nick claimed that the story was by a female friend of his. If I find the message board post, I'll make an update for it.
I don't know Steve....that last link you left is IMO too impressive to have come from Matthew Murray. As disturbing as it is, I think it is very well written....IMO. Why would someone capable of writting that, have to resort to plagerism of Harris and Kleibold form Columbine..or even of Marilyn Manson? The tone of the posting is dead-on, but it seems to have a depth of "orignal insight" that Murray lacked. If it truly does belong to MM, then I would have to consider the possiblity of split personalities. I guess that wouldn't be that big or a surprise in this mish-mash, huh?
Dang it! Every single post I have left, I have meant to tell you to feel better Steve, but my finger hits "Publish" before I get personal each time! We all care about you a great deal, and wish you the best. I wish I could help.
Reannan, thank you for the good wishes -- very, very much. Today, overall, has been a good day, save some vertigo earlier this evening.
As to the link -- you have to temper what you've said by considering that it looked like Murray was constantly plagiarizing things, even testimonials.
Rather than analyzing, simply re-visit the message board links then go look at the MySpace again, including the blog. I couldn't ignore all the similarities, the tone, after a while. I'm 99.9% convinced it is him. There are too many coincidences between his message board posts and the MySpace blog's content -- way too many.
Don't confuse my thinking this man was shallow and emotionally stunted with thinking he was stupid. Frankly, I think he may have been pretty intelligent. Many psychopaths are, and they are good with words -- to a point. The descriptor often used is "glib."
As to split personalities -- I'm a real skeptic there. I believe dissociative identity disorder exists, but I believe it's really rare. Here, there's a consistency in tone he couldn't hide. That's why even thought the MySpace appears on the surface to be a woman's, all the words do sound to me just like Matthew Murray's known or probable postings.
That is too scary Steve.
I somewhat agree with Richard.
I was part of YWAM for 3 months. I've been in and around a whole lot of Pentecostal churches. I loved YWAM. I loved the churches and many of the people. I will say though that I was married to a "prophet". There is sooooo much manipulation used in the name of prophecy that it is enough to turn people completely away from the churches. Proving their prophecies wrong can become a mission...yet is very hard to do because they often twist events to fit the prophecy.
I wouldn't dare say that everything Murray said online was true. I would say though that for someone unstable especially, couple the extreme underlying manipulation with the rejection that he probably felt from whatever happened at YWAM, the mixture was deadly for Murray.
The prophetic manipulation has a way of reaching into the core of who you are and killing you internally. I would bet that he struggled with himself more than anything in the beginning...from there it just progressed until he turned it outward. I'd guess that the turning outward didn't happen overnight but that it took a long time.
I also wouldn't bank on hearing all about the abuse in the home later. Because these types of abuse are often considered normal and Biblical within certain groups, everyone nearby will shelter them and tell them that they made the right choices...that he choose to rebel his gift...probably even quote Jonah. I am most definitely an evangelic Christian, but I have witnessed a lot that saddens me.
I could be all wrong too.
If it helps any to understand, in
psychology, a person who often
feels oppressed and out of control
will resort to loosing control
in order to sense regaining it.
I have seen this in all of the
history's of the mass shooters.
This young man included. It is
clear they all had oppressed
child hoods and social stand
ings. So in that sense, it
made sense they did what they
did. That could help when
attempting to identify youth who
react in this manner in the future. The background is only important
as how they feel in control of
their environments.
thanks for all your hard work on this case...this is so chilling. i followed the links and found this posting made on the ex-pentecostal board, entitled "Leaving", posted at 10:50 AM on Dec 9:
"You guys were awesome. It's time for me to head out and teach these assholes a lesson
Thanks for listening and all....even though even many of you ex-pentecostals don't understand......See you all on the other side, we're leaving this nightmare behind to a better place"
http://p223.ezboard.com/Leaving/
...topicID=7.topic
this guy was sitting on his computer it seems for the twelve hours between the shootings in arvada and the springs, posting these messages. it's just chilling to read these things. no other words for it.
Steve,
First of all, I hope you are feeling better. I also can bet that this kid's father....being a leading MS researcher.....made those little hairs on the backs of your arms stand up..
I am going to do the unforgivable and ride the fence here. I agree with soobers, and suziq, and steve and robert m, and reeeee......and several other posters all wrapped into one:
bottom line, like steve has said, this kid was most likely showing signs of his problems at a very early age (violence, depression, etc). The parents most likely did all they could to help him.
This is where I agree about the effect this type of religion may have had on a kid already predisposed to homiscidal rage and depression (currently manifested or not).
This is where I agree with the homeschool angle....that with his predisposition or early manifestation of the above psychiatric pathos the lack of socialization may have not been the best thing for someone who strives to be alone and despite all the rantings they usually do the contrary, would actually rather be alone and make any exscuse or perfect any behavior to keep it that way.
The games and the music lyrics fed his pathos. He fanned the flame with them.
His dismissal from YWam was similar.
I found his mention of homosexual and bisexual sex and other innuendos to such on his possible myspace (ie lesbian and bi with female photo and name), to posts on message boards (even attesting to blatant sexual acts he claimed he witnessed in the hallways, bathrooms, etc), and the like to be rather his real thoughts on sex and his confusion either with his gender assignment, sexuality, or just sexual frustration in general.
The myspace page. Wow. If that isn't him I would be really surprised. Really. Surprised. And his choice of gender, etc sure says more about him to me then anything.
I bet there is more of him to find online. The internet was a safe place for him to experiment as per his pathos, and as per the limits that his family religion may have placed on those parts of his mind that, despite all the love of family and God and all the rest, still thought bad thoughts. And couldn't stop.
Hi Steve,
I read one of the blog entries from "Sarah Chrstnghtmr" on MySpace that was a very sad, heartwrenching story, called "Sexual abuse in Christianity....Welcome To Our Christian Nightmare" dated June 2006. It made me wonder if it was (at least partly?) autobiographical or perhaps another cut and paste from somewhere else.
Anyway, I did some searching on the net and came across this link with the same girl's picture, same blog entry but using a different username. It comes full circle though, since the user's webpage points to the MySpace account you found.
JHGS Profile: http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/in...?
showuser=13663
JHGS Posts: http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/
in...sult_type=posts
Steve, we took our ADHD daughter to many "healing" sessions, prayed for years so hard that it would go or there would be a cure for it. We are baptists or fundamentalists, just desperate MOR Anglicans. Needless to say, it didn't happen. Prayer is not always the answer to everything - "sometimes God says No", as my confirmation teacher said. Sometimes good drugs or psycho-therapy work better.
I hope you are feeling better, M.S is a pig of an illness :-(
Wes. To say that "a lack of faith in a god does not and never will lead a person to death and destruction" is a hypothesis that you would need to prove. In my opinion, the word 'never' is either 100% inclusive or exclusive and one exception fails the proof. It doesn't matter if you are religious or an athiest, there will be bad people that are products of their environment. Take the famous athiest Madalyn Murray O'Hair. When her son converted to Christianity, she responded "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times...he is beyond human forgiveness." Is this the antithesis of Matthew Murray's mother? Or the same?
And was Ms. O'Hair murdered by a right-wing Christian zealot? No, she was killed by her office manager out of anger and greed. So it appears that an atheist was killed by an atheist.
After Ms. O'Hair's death, her son later said about his mother: "My mother was an evil person... Not for removing prayer from America's schools... No, she was just evil. She stole huge amounts of money. She misused the trust of people. She cheated children out of their parents' inheritance. She cheated on her taxes and even stole from her own organizations. She once printed up phony stock certificates on her own printing press to try to take over another atheist publishing company." (wikipedia)
So, it really doesn't matter if say you've never (there's that word again) been violent. It doesn't mean you are not violent because you are an atheist. It means you fall into the 99 percent (ok, maybe a little high) with the rest of us.
And your comment of "not allowing your children to think for themselves or make their own choices is a form a abuse"? Click on the provided link below (and after you click on the last pic on that page, change the '8' to a '9' in the address bar to truly get the last pic). Not every choice is a learning experience.
Dan, that is an odd choice for a homepage you have there buddy. I think you should remove it because of the harm it is doing the family of this young girl. You can see the story about Nikki Catsouras and the pain the pictures of her death being posted on the internet here:
http://tinyurl.com/2ccv4g
Before details emerged in this case (speculative or other) I felt in my gut that the shooter (who we now know as Matthew Murray) was lashing out at hypocrisy, be it perceived or real. I also felt very strongly that much of Murray's inner turmoil centered on the epic battle between sin and salvation.
My gut told me that this shooter was struggling with an identity crisis, his sense of self so clouded by the voices and actions of others around him, especially the hypocrisy and contradictions...
After reading the 365gay.com link that Steve had originally posted, there was little doubt in my mind that sex and sexuality were two things that tormented the perpetrator of the crime(s). Perhaps it was just that the targets of his rage are known proponents of the "ex-gay" movement, maybe it was even the hypocrisy of the Ted Haggard situation. I was just certain that there was something to this....
(I guess we can't say for sure that the "Sarah" myspace profile belonged to Matthew Murray, but if it did, it is very telling, in my opinion.)
We still do not know much about Murray's home life, other than that he was home schooled and had a seemingly overzealous Christian upbringing. The father's being a prominent researcher in the MS field most likely left a physical, as well as an emotional void in the household, and this would have placed the domineering fanatical mother front and center.
I do not want to paint neither the family or the family's faith with too broad of a brush stroke. All we really have to go on is the words of a disturbed young man. I do, however, want to understand the "whys."
Honestly, I think growing up knowing that you are "different" in a family (extended family/religious community) that you know will NEVER except you for who you are is as good a starting point as any. It probably didn't help that he felt his family held expectations for him (the whole "profit" thing, that seemingly at at him) that he knew he could never live up to.
If this is the case, my heart aches for Matthew Murray. What a sad and lonely "existence" that must have been. Sure, it does NOTHING to justify his actions, but I seriously can't even imagine.............
Before you post a comment, please check the blog post to see if I've made an update. Substantial updates with new information were posted on 12/11/07 and today, 12/12/07.
Thanks,
Steve
I agree that the 'Sarah' online persona sounds very much like Murray, and 'her' existence does suggest either some kind of sexual/gender identity confusion, OR an attempt to hide his true identity while exploring avenues online that his mother/parents/religious community would have disapproved of- OR, possibly, both.
He fits the "school-shooter" profile to a "T." Murray is the classic example now. This is his revenge for being left out and picked on.
I am an English professor, and admittedly, my knowledge of psychology wanes in comparison to some posters on this blog. However, I know writing and writing style.
Writing style reflects one's personality in many cases. The key with Murray's posts is that many are plagiarized, which says something about his perceived lack of ability to communicate. Therefore, he posted lyrics that affected him in an emotional way and hoped others would "understand" after reading those same lyrics.
Again, I do not assert that I understand his psychology (or others for that matter), but his shifts from first person singular to first person plural should be noted. If Sarah’s Chrstnngthmr myspace blog belongs to Murray, this shift can be noted in the “About me” section.
Notice how the entry starts with a first person telling of his/her background. This is typical narrative. Later, after the “Christians thought they could get away with abusing me and others” phrase, the tone changes. Instead of the earlier use of the more personal “you,” the pronoun becomes the arbitrary “they.” The verb “comprehendeth” also reflects this change in tone. Finally, this section ends with “Read our blog for more.” This is the first time first person plural is used and it occurs after the tonal shift.
As one further example, in a post (thanks for the link Sheila) written hours before the second shootings, nghtmrchld26 starts out once again by using first person singular, “[i]t's time for me to head out and teach these assholes a lesson.” The post ends, however, with the shift to first person plural, “…we're leaving this nightmare behind to a better place.”
Although I do not know how much to make of these observations, these shifts seem to reflect more than typical grammar problems.
"He fits the "school-shooter" profile to a "T." Murray is the classic example now. This is his revenge for being left out and picked on."
I agree, Mike. Personally, I'm not that interested on how his church, mother, religion, etc. "wounded" him. Grow the hell up. This was about ONE man, who FELT like a "nobody." And I believe he had the ability to overcome whatever perceived "abuse" he endured. By blaming Christians (people he may have never MET, they couldn't have "hurt" him) he did what the losers always want to do - "hurt society like they've hurt me." Again, I say, grow the hell up. There will always be certain personalities that will play the victim, blame society for their own misery, and nothing ANYONE can do, will help them. If we believe his own writings, he's had therapy, antidepressants, etc. According to him it didn't work. Nothing "works" unless you WANT it to work. And he didn't WANT to change his circumstances.
I'm finding myself wondering whose picture 'Sarah' actually is, and whether he stole it randomly from the internet or actually knows her? And is she aware?...creepy shades of 'Kaycee Nicole' here...
Soobs, I read here a lot but very rarely comment, so I've read a great deal of your comments. I wonder...either you have been through a whole lot and overcome or you haven't been through much in your lifetime.
My husband has been through a lot - growing up and as an adult. He thinks like you do - anyone can overcome - they just have to want to.
I also went through a lot growing up and as adult. I tend to leave more toward the mercy side because I don't see everyone as being equally able to overcome. I know that I was able to and that my husband was able to, but I see others that struggle so much. I don't why that is - why some seem to be able to take things more than others. I really don't know.
The one thing that prompts me to leave you this comment is that we often don't realize the effects that we have on others. The movie Crash is one of my favorites purely because it shows how what we do and what we say effects others greatly. To say that he just needs to grow up, implies that what others *may* have done to him are of no effect, so as parents or even fellow human beings, it's ok treat each other however we want just because you should be able to rise above it - grow up, as you may.
Please, I don't say any of this as an attack AT ALL. I don't at all justify what he has done either!! However, I would like to say that we have a responsibility as fellow human beings to deal with people in love the best we can and to help them be overcomers in life - not leave them to themselves to take care of themselves.
erhw, I have been looking all over the net for that picture he used as "Sarah". It looks really familiar to me! I think this guy had problems that could not be corrected by therapy, drugs, counseling, or anything he could have tried. I am beginning to believe that some of these people are just damaged beyond repair. The question then becomes, what do "we", i.e. society DO with them? Maybe it is time for a national "brain" bank where we analyze and store the brains of these mass killers to see if we can identify some commong pathology. Just a thought.
So, I found this comment on the ex-pentecostal forum...
Here's the link:
http://p223.ezboard.com/
fexpente...topicID=9.topic
" Ricky Rodriguez' experience of growing up in the Nightmare.. This kid went through abuse in christianity just like me and my friends.....he was even intended to be their next "prophet"...just like me.......
Watch the video he made:
www.xfamily.org/index.php...guez_video
Sure, many christians will say "oh, that's just a cult" as if the pentecostalis/Bill Gothard/Charismatic crap I was raised in wasn't?"
This was of particular interest to me, I went to the xfamily.org website, and found something that may or may not pertain. The cult Ricky Rodriguez was in was led by David Berg. Sarah Berg was his daughter in law, and she finally had enough abuse and went to the authorities. Maybe that's why he used Sarah in his myspace? You can see her story here: http://www.xfamily.org/index.php....php/
Sarah_Berg
I think this kid Matthew Murray really thinks he lived a life like Ricky. That's what it became in his mind anyway. And I'm very curious to find out if anyone actually told him he was born a prophet, because methinks that story is a lie created because that's what Ricky's parents did to him.
I think Matthew hated himself so much, that he became other people as often as he could.
MZ, I see you posted while I was posting, and I find your comment interesting:
"I would like to say that we have a responsibility as fellow human beings to deal with people in love the best we can and to help them be overcomers in life - not leave them to themselves to take care of themselves."
I agree....if the person can be helped. Imagine, for a second, however, trying to apply loving help to a rabid dog. Sometimes, you simply have to remove them from harm's way.
I thought the name Ricky Rodriguez sounded familiar...
Wow.
I'm hesitant to throw away Murray's accusations as "rantings." As people, we'll ask "If he seemed suspicious, why not say something?" and worry that our concerns could be tossed out-of-hand. What about his? Should we or the police or the community not look deep into his accusations as well?
I am not saying his accusations are true, but let's remember the countless victims of quiet abuse who never got help because people couldn't believe "a family that nice could do such a thing." It's prevalent, and we should be wary no matter who the complainant is. Being a victim myself who lived with other foster children that actually had the gall to report these abusive parents - only to watch the system dismiss the charges because they presented themselves so well, thus allowing me and my sister to live there for a total of three years - I'm not as quick to dismiss his accusations. They should be looked into. At least as a matter of course.
Why are you not talking about all the satanism on his "her" blog?
These mass murderers are doing the work of Satan, who is making war on all of us.
"However, I would like to say that we have a responsibility as fellow human beings to deal with people in love the best we can and to help them be overcomers in life - not leave them to themselves to take care of themselves."
MZ, I agree with this 100%. I'm VERY frustrated with three shootings, in a week, around Christmas. I've VERY frustrated because we KNOW that these two people WERE given the opportunity to change their minds. No one is responsible for they way they were raised. But at what point do we say, okay, I cannot change the past, or the people around me, but I CAN change me? Especially Ricky and Matthew - they were given counseling, medication, someone to talk to. It became THEIR own responsibility, to decide to do and live better. And they chose to KILL OTHERS - and not even the people who they claim hurt them. They chose strangers - that tells me that they were selfish, and yes, in a sense, evil.
I've had things to overcome, and it probably isn't as much as others have had to overcome. But people do it every day. It isn't as if these two men didn't have the resources, or the help. And I admit to having a VERY low tolerance for "victimhood." I DO believe that ANYONE can change, and I also believe that it starts with WANTING a change in your life.
" To say that he just needs to grow up, implies that what others *may* have done to him are of no effect, so as parents or even fellow human beings, it's ok treat each other however we want just because you should be able to rise above it "
I disagree. I'm of the mind that we all have a choice in how we REACT to things in our lives. As children, there is only so much we have power over, (but even then, we always have the power over our reactions). However as an adult - well, we have an obligation to ourselves, if no one else, to find a way to handle things, deal with things, and to do better (I believe we ALL can do better, daily.) It doesn't ever mean that being mistreated is "okay." It does mean that we find a way to deal with hurt and disappoinment in a mature way, that is loving toward ourselves. He most certainly did NOT do that, and he went further. He hurt others "because they hurt him." Tit for tat is not a solution, and never has been.
Christen, I agree. There is way more here than meets the eye. The family situation should be investigated, IMHO.
Why are you not talking about all the satanism on his "her" blog?
These mass murderers are doing the work of Satan, who is making war on all of us.
Fred J. | 12.12.07 - 1:23 pm | #
I'm not talking about Satan, because Satan is an imaginary being who does not actually exist in reality. Satan has nothing to do with any of this.
Society doesn't owe anybody a happy childhood. Being left out, being picked on, and overcoming social awkwardness are all a part of growing up, and most people experience these feelings at some point in their life. Soobs made the best point. It's how you react to what's been done to you by others. There is nothing that others could do that would warrant picking up a gun and shooting people at random.
This kid probably should have had some psychiatric counseling but got religious ritual and dogma instead, and resented it. His resentment seems pretty clear in his writings. It's still not an excuse though.
I don't think his parents created a killer, even if they were'nt ideal. They don't need to be investigated. I've known people who had parents who were much worse, and they overcame their setbacks in a positive way.
Soobs, Ricky actually killed his nanny (Sara, aka Angela Smith) that most definitely abused him most of his life growing up. There's a book that's made it out to the internet, The Story of Davidita, that was written in part by his nanny that he killed. This book was written to help other "Family" members know how to raise their children to enjoy sex. In it she describes the many times they "loved up" together. It's pure evil and incredibly disgusting. There are even pictures showing the abuse.
So, not being able to find his mother (she's in hiding), he did the next best thing in his mind and killed the other woman that abused him time and time again. Then he killed himself.
For Matthew to compare his life to what Ricky went through IMO is absurd.
I'm going to be completely honest here...
Unless a person has faced abuse in some form, I honestly do not believe that they are capable of understanding the mindset needed to do something so dark and "unthinkable."
Unfortunately, I can relate to the types of people who commit these acts more than I would like to be able to. I have experienced and seen things that can not be changed or taken back, things that will probably stay with me forever. And no, I'm not referring to the typical experiences we all go through growing up.
I personally have been dangerously close to the edge... whatever that is?
I don't know if it's the edge of sanity or simply the threshold of my own personal breaking point, but in truth, I still wrestle with my inner demons and the past that procured them from time to time.
At times, I feel like I have made peace with my past, yet other times, darkness does call upon me. That being said, for whatever reason, I have the ability to empathize... actually, to an extreme degree. This is a blessing that I believe is the one thing that has saved me, as well as others that I could have very easily harmed.....
For every Matthew Murray, there are plenty of people (like myself) who never cross the line between "fantasy" and reality. People who go through life seemingly well adjusted and as productive members of their community.
The flip side of that, is that for every person capable of self-restraint, there are plenty others who just don't care whether they live or die, not to mention, who they take with them if that moment should ever arrive.
I make no excuses for the Matthew Murrays of the world. There is no excuse for what he did. There is no justification for his actions, AT ALL.
I don't know Matthew's exact situation, but I have felt his desperation. I just wish he had turned the gun on himself long before he felt compelled to exact his "revenge."
In my eyes, he took the coward's way out. Life is hard, especially for those of us who grew up in dysfunctional homes, who faced neglect, abuse, and witnessed unspeakable acts. Even still, as Soobs eloquently stated, as adults, we DO have an obligation to ourselves, especially if we have families. If we don't, it's bound to give birth to a sick sad cycle, destined to repeat its self.
My life lesson has been this:
When life hands you lemons, you make lemonade. When your hands get too tired to wring lemons or when you get sick of lemonade, you damn well better find something else to make.
It's much better that way for everyone in the long run.....
You are quick to assume that Satan is an imaginary being. But whether or not he is, it is clear that many of those dupes who practise satanism, as this young man admittedly did, bear a deep rage against society. This comes up in many of the mass killers cases.
Also even if Satan is real, he cannot be expected to keep any promise they think he is making them.
So, as the German pastor Lucas Muss put it in the 16th century: "if the devil lies, then the devil dies, and if the devil dies, then the devil lies."
"Ricky actually killed his nanny (Sara, aka Angela Smith) that most definitely abused him most of his life growing up"
After I posted, I realized that I didn't mean Ricky - I mean the other guy who shot up the mall last week. I do know who Ricky is, and his story is WAYYYY more abusive than Matthew's, IMO.
I'm seeing some people kind of wondering if there is any credibility to this guy's rantings about his church & YWAM as a cult etc. Although it is possible he was subjected to a cult and abused by his family or church I find it very unlikely that the said abuse was systematic through YWAM & NL church. I've come to this conclusion via my own personal experience w/YWAMers, YWAM like groups, large churches like NL, and a conservative Christian college.
My experience with these types of groups is that the vast majority of people are awesome, caring people. They are striving to live good lives, but they are imperfect and could be considered by some to be hypocritical because of their inability to live up to their own standards. There are some who are down right shysters who con everyone else into believing they are trying when they are not. There are also some like Matthew who don't really believe for themselves anything that is taught in these groups; but who have grown up in the culture and are comfortable there. My personal experience w/these types of individuals is that they push away anyone who tries to care about them. Because they don't believe the fundamentals that bind the group together, they feel like they are on the outside; but this is the culture and position they have grown accustomed to their whole lives so they don’t leave. Even if people genuinely care for them, they won’t believe it. They don't believe anything at face value. Those who tried really hard to befriend these people would end up emotionally sucked dry and would inevitably need a break from them.
My guess is that there were tons of people at YWAM & church who really loved Matthew the best they could, and the most he would let them. They just weren't equipped to deal w/his insanity. They couldn't change him. They probably did the only thing they knew to do, try to listen, show him they cared, and pray for him.
Was he really abused? Maybe. I just don't believe that the church & YWAM systematically abused him and "his friends." Was he abused in the church, unfortunately it's possible; but if he was abused it was probably an individual and not the system.
Just some thoughts from someone who has been in a lot of the types of groups he hated.
Crystal, I agree with your comments. Thanks for posting them.
I'm not willing to simply write Matthew off as being insane. To the contrary, I think he was plenty sane. I also doubt he ever heard voices. I believe that "his voices" were yet another instrument to distance himself from others. As much as he claims he hated not being accepted by the "beautiful people," part of him clearly embraced that fact.
The posts from nghtmrchld26 from Sunday have been restored. They are all available at: http://p223.ezboard.com/
nghtmrch...stalforumsfrm60
These 10 posts were all posted between 4:04 am and 11:01. Therefore they were all posted between the two shootings.....
Luke you may be right. The voices may have been a way to manipulate others, to scare them, to distance them from him. No matter how hard people tried to care about him, if he pulled crap like that, it would be impossible to have a normal relationship. I would have been likely to try and care about him from a distance, a buffer zone. I would have had real difficulty having an emotionally intimate relationship with someone who was so unstable & inherently untrustworthy.
However, I also wouldn't be all that surprised if the voices were real. Lots of people believe in demons/Satan etc. Even if you don't schizophrenia is very real and usually manifests for the first time between 18 and 25.
Real or not, voices are freaky. I wouldn't have wanted to bunk next to him let alone go overseas with him. I think YWAM made the right call not taking him. How could he have been a missionary for something he obviously did not believe? How fair would it have been to the other people to continue to subject them to his erratic behavior? I wouldn't be surprised if YWAM accepted him more as a mission of mercy. Maybe they new about his problems & hoped that a supportive group like the staff & kids at YWAM would help. If that's the case I'm sure they hoped he would find his way at YWAM, become a part of the team & contribute to the ministry. He wasn't able to.
This is all just so very sad.
His actions seem very similar to Cho's, in that he took a break in between shootings to compose a sort of manifesto..
You are right, crystal, it could have been demons, schizophrenia, or whatever else. My suspicion that he didn't hear voices comes from the conversation he had with his bunkmate.
"I'm talking to my voices, don't worry, they like you, you're a nice person." (Seems to me there was an air of dark humor to his choice of wording.)
Either very crazy or very manipulative; perhaps a bit of both...
Soobs, I figured you knew about Ricky. I got so involved in a website about the Family today I now find myself very depressed. And knowing what the chilren in that cult went through, I'm surprised we haven't seen mass shootings from them rather than just from Ricky.
I concur with everything you and Crystal and Luke said. Matthew had a choice to make, and he made the wrong one, and that was HIS doing. He was a grown man also, not a teenager, so this makes him even more accountable. Suicide is always said to be the coward's way out, what Matthew Murray did was much more cowardly than simply committing suicide.
I'm thinking of the two innocent teenagers that lost their lives right in front of their father in that church parking lot. Two teens that he's probably never even seen before. That family lost their two daughters in one fatal moment, and will never be the same again - especially the father. Matthew Murray was quite simply a loathsome coward.
These 10 posts were all posted between 4:04 am and 11:01. Therefore they were all posted between the two shootings.....
I don't think this young man was insane. I think he was lucid and clear as to his intent.
I believe a lot of the angst he expressed was lip service to a rage he actually didn't truly understand at all. That's the nature of psychopathic rage -- it just is. Psychopaths' explanations for it vary, but much of the time it has been a presence in their lives since they could remember. It's one of the few things they feel with any true depth.
Other people caught his vibe. That was why he was continually rejected. I haven't seen a single word that Murray posted online indicating he accepted anything resembling responsibility for his life situation or the acts he committed. At every turn, the blame was directed elsewhere.
Psychopaths get depressed, too, if they lack the glib interpersonal skills so many of us associate with the animal (and some of them do). The depression is not the soul-wearying angst of the clinical depressive who nevertheless does have a conscience -- it is more akin to an overwhelming and all-consuming self-pity. It works hand-in-hand with the rage psychopaths feel.
Cho's insanity was consistent. He truly seemed to create a world in his mind where everything was arrayed against him. This guy, Matthew Murray -- I just keep seeing calculation. That's not psychotic. The female sock puppet on MySpace -- not confusion, but a game he was playing. Calculated.
I'm afraid I don't perceive much depth here, psychologically speaking. A psychopathic predator who never developed the easy, "used-car salesman" manner that so many psychos can use to get by in the world -- that's what I see.
His suicide, then, wasn't an act of despair, but control.
Exactly Steve.
And that is the scariest part about sociopathy.....it can look like schizophrenia or depression or an outgoing "used car salesman", or the boyscout leader next door like Mr. Rader.....
but what it comes down to is raw sociopathy. Despair is to depression as control is to sociopathy.
imho only
Maybe I am reading to much into it, but I do see a hint of desperation to go along with the control (or lack of.)
Of course, this is taking Murray's own words at face value. Then again, he wouldn't be the psychopath to lie.
For my part I don't believe that pathology and evil are exclusive notions. I think it's more comforting to locate the springs of such actions in pathology, because it flatters some sense that we may be able to explain and therefore better control for such impetuses in society. But I think it's more honest to call this evil, shudder, and move on humbled to know that a person's soul is not so transparent to reduction:
Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me! You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass: and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ; yet cannot you make it speak. 'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be played on than a pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, yet you cannot play upon me.Even the most evil among us are startlingly...human.
HAMLET, Act III, scene II
stepping in & out of feigning madness in conversation with Gertrude and Polonius.
I've not even attempted THAT kind of a quotation here!
{nursebeemee - hope everything is settling down for you & family. Your apposite of "despair is to depression" I really, really liked. I just think "grief" in all its forms and however it arises is the kick-start and sustainer of that emotional movement, and grief comes from loss. And that loss might just be something very small in its outward appearence. What then is the Wound and Where is [the healing] Bow?)
rasqual, something from Othello or Merchant of Venice, wounded egos both, might fit better, though Hamlet is famously about never getting to the bottom of understanding one's own soul.
Jesus Kim, I didn't know the Ricky Rodriguez story, and I just finished watching his video. And all the related material.
I just want to curl up and cry. Why is it that I wish he had taken more out? At least he got Sara. I haven't been this blown away by a story since Duncan. I just got done with his suicide/murder video and my mouth cannot come closed. WHY was this not a big deal? WHERE is his scumbag mother?
Sadly, for every "Family," there are probably so many more depraved cults operating under the radar.
Melissa, you are not alone in your feelings..
I too was disappointed that more of what Ricky referred to as, "trash," wasn't taken out...
I know it's not right to feel that way and I don't condone taking a life that isn't an immediate threat to your own, I'm just being honest with what my initial sentiments were.
Reading that story, and watching that poor boy's video/suicide note, and reading the related PROOF, including his pictures. I am STILL wanting them to be dead. This kind of abuse I have thankfully never been a witness to. I am still in curl mode here.
I realize that this probably has nothing to do with this case, but in case it does.... We have to be more aware of what is going on around us.
What IF is now my question with this guy.
Wow. I had never read anything about Ricky or "The Family", aka Children of God. I wish I had known Ricky, he seemed like an alright guy. I wish he had been able to make other choices. It sort of angers me that Matthew would "take up Ricky's cross", so to speak, because I think the two cases are apples and oranges to each other. I have no doubts that Matthew grew up in a strongly religious environment, which was probably fundamentalist, and perhaps fanatical. I am just not ready to concede his childhood as the explanation for his actions. He was now a 24 year old adult. Why didn't he just say "F" you and walk out? When I read what Ricky has written, and compare it to what Matthew wrote, there is a HUGE difference. Ricky was angry with rightous fury because of the injustices done to him and others. Matthew's anger seems much more complicated because I can't clearly define what the anger is directed against. "The Beautiful People" are targets, and the horrible hours of hearing about religion, but that seems to pale in comparison to what Ricky endured. If I read both men's writtings on an emotional level, I connect with Ricky - I feel like I am looking at an alien species with Matthew.
Sorry guys - that last "Anonymous" posting was me. I had a lovely Windows Update today, which always forces me to clean out the temp files, cookies, etc, and I guess I lost my identity for a moment. Hate it when that happens. 
Here is one to ponder:
Matthew Murray is to Ricky Rodriquez as acid is to cleansing Spring rain.
Matthew Murray is to Cho as an absessed tooth is to a root canal.
What's up with "Chrstnnghtmr" MySpace account being unaccessible today?
http://www.myspace.com/69684771
and with the June, 2006 blog entry made by "Sarah" in the "Chrstnnghtmr" MySpace weblog that Steve linked at the end of this thread being set to private? Was "Sarah" really NOT him, or has someone else set these to private? Interesting...
More likely -- someone figured out his password or he gave it out before he died, and they went in to render it private.
There is the possibility he shared it with someone, though I'd be surprised. I'd be most surprised if it wasn't him. I'd also find that pretty spooky, and want to know what the person who really made the profile was up to, because they're exactly like him.
Also -- police could now have access via a subpoena to MySpace and they may have rendered it inaccessible on purpose. The family could have requested MySpace take it down as well.
Either way, this wouldn't be the first time a myspace profile of a dead person was taken offline for any reason.
I feel that Matthew was intellegent, yet severly emotionally stunted. He knew exactly what he was doing at all times.
Last night I found the below linked article from a local news station. Matthew was all over the map religiously. You don't just get baptized into the LDS Church. There are several months of learning LDS scriptures and beliefs involved. He went to all that ehausting effort to get baptized, then quit going to church. Weird.
(snip)
But a year ago, he welcomed religion in his life, according to one man who taught Murray about the Latter-day Saint faith.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2321651
Folks, Matthew's tragic mistake was spending over a year trying to join a satanic cult that believes homosexual anal sex is black magic. It should be clear that they are the ones with the most to answer for here.
I don't think it would have mattered what group this kid joined. He just could not socialize with ANYONE. He rejected his families Pentacostal faith, the LDS, the YWAM group, and the occult group he was most recently associated with up until October, "Ad Astra Oasis". His writtings twist it around to say HE was rejected, but I suspect he was rejecting them! How else do you explain being at a Christmas concert for a group of fundamental Pentacostal youth and playing them a Marilyn Manson song? That is an intentional act of in-your-face, "f"-you, rejection. Unless he was stupid, he had to KNOW the reaction he would get from acting in such an aggressive manner. I think a lot of his writtings are a similar "f"-you to the entire world. He LIKED shocking people.
Fred J. - even THAT group rejected him. I bet he would have played "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" at their Christmas party. He was a fascinating, but sick jerk.
He first posted the entire satanic ritual to 'Baphomet' on his MySpace blog in June 2006. The occult group seem to be trying to distance themselves from him now, and say that he left them just last September or October because things 'weren't working out', or some such.
Soon after October, he begins to rant nonsense about how Christianity is only for 'the Beautiful people', he is seriously twisted by then and has fully transferred his feeling of resentment and rejection to Christians.
Also, when we wonder how MM related with Ricky Rodriguez so much...
In a way, the "Church of God" seem like the opposite number of "Ad Astra Oasis"...
CoG approve of female homosexuality as part of their doctrine, but reject male homosexuality...
AAO approve of male homosexuality as part of ther doctrine, but reject female homosexuality...
I don't think that Matthew "related to Ricky Rodriguez so much" at all. He wanted desperately to relate to Ricky, because Ricky was rightfully full of rage and anger, and Matthew wanted to also be "rightfully" full of the same anger. But as someone said on here before, Ricky and Matthew were apples and oranges.
murray family releases new photo of matthew:
http://cbs4denver.com/
breakingne...y.2.609757.html
In one of his very last internet posts of Dec. 9 AM, he identified himself as still being a member of "C.O.T.O Adastris Oasis", and even gave out their address and phone number, it's all on Steve's main page... but the group are now claiming he left them a few months ago... One news account says he attended their 'events' for two years, another says one year...
Maybe if mainstream Christianity would change its often hypocritical stance on homosexuality, as well as address the TRUTH about mental illness, some of these types of tragedies could be avoided. Organized religion can be very exclusionary by nature. If you need an example... try going to a Catholic funeral mass as a non-Catholic.
I'm not by any means exclusively blaming organized religion, but this runs a Hell of a lot deeper than, "The cool kids wouldn't play with me," as I have heard a lot of people suggest.
What's your take on this:
http://www.queerty.com/news/chur...sacre-20071213/
IMO, this kid was "bisexual" only in the sense that he couldn't ever maintain a relationship(man or woman) and the only way to relieve his biological impulses were through anonymous gay encounters.
Luke, this case can be boiled down to "The cool kids wouldn't play with me" and "I failed and I have no future".
Luke, what the heck are you talking about with funeral masses and Catholics? Who do they exclude?
"Luke, what the heck are you talking about with funeral masses and Catholics? Who do they exclude?"
I just recently went to one and I swear I almost felt like a second-class citizen. It was ridiculous how the priest looked down his nose at we outsiders. I especially love how he emphasized that "Only the Catholics in attendance are entitled to receive the Holy Communion." As if we didn't know...
Then we were advised that THIS would be a good time to consider our faith (as in, I advise you convert to Catholicism if you want to get into heaven.)
It's not a great example, perhaps, but I seriously wouldn't have been surprised to find segregated bathrooms in the church.
Anyway, was an expression that left quite an impression on me.
The queer blog you linked had the following 'take'...
"Rothstein worries whether this will increase the right wing’s anti-gay ways, but hopes it will open people’s eyes to the dangers of restrictive religion. We’re praying for the latter…"
I think most people have already made up their minds which way to analyze it, depending on their perspective. The minority who are homosexual will interpret it one way, and always, seek to blame Christian churches, while the majority of us who are not homosexual, will see things more clearly... no need to go over dry sea and land to win more innocent converts while arguing in vindication of the satanic homosexual group he belonged to, and identified in his almost last post to be on behalf of. He worshiped Satan and hated the innocent, but typically, we get apologists for this kind of thing who are trying to twist it into an attack on Christianity. These apologists share a very similar anti-Christian outlook to the killer himself, and luckily the FBI is stepping up investigation of these left wing terrorists.
Was an experience that left quite an impression on me...
back to the coffee pot I go...
Ninja Pirate,
My impression is that this could very well be the root of Matthew's hostility. I actually said something similar in my first post, before any such details emerged.
I think that perhaps the tipping point was Ted Haggard's hypocrisy. Perhaps that instance replaced the depression and loneliness with hatred. Make no mistakes about it, much of the hatred was self directed, but if it was only about that, he would have stopped at one bullet.
"I just recently went to one and I swear I almost felt like a second-class citizen. It was ridiculous how the priest looked down his nose at we outsiders. I especially love how he emphasized that "Only the Catholics in attendance are entitled to receive the Holy Communion." As if we didn't know..."
Sounds like you may have been expecting him to react that way, and that's the way it came across to you. As for the priest mentioning the Eucharist, it's because there are other religions that partake of the Host (Lutherans and Presbyterians are two examples) but don't do so in the manner that Catholics do. I'm pretty sure he wasn't singling YOU out.
"He worshiped Satan and hated the innocent"
Which I truly find funny, because their wouldn't BE a Satan, without God. Yet many people claim they don't believe in God, but do Satan. BTW, even Satan believes in God.
Can I ask right now that any discussions of faith and religion in these comments be tempered with civility?
As a Christian myself I'm sensitive, for instance, to commentators like Fred. While I probably come from a different faith tradition (I'm a member of the United Methodist Church and currently attend a large Presbyterian Church) than Fred, I respect the strength of his beliefs, just as I respect those of you who have entirely different sets of beliefs.
Luke, you are a longtime poster and I'm always glad when you chime in -- I wanted to correct one misimpression I think you have about "mainstream Christianity" -- we may have different definitions of what "mainstream" means, because I can tell you for a fact that not ALL Protestants are anti-gay. Episcopalians, some Lutherans, and some United Methodists are the opposite -- just look up "open and accepting" and "faith community" or church.
One of the most wealthy Episcopal congregations here in Atlanta, for instance, has a very strong gay lay leadership. In churches I've attended more recently the attitude seems a bit more like "don't ask, don't tell," but gay friends who go to the same churches will tell you that they feel quite comfortable there.
The Unitarians are open and accepting, as far as I know, as is the United Church of Christ, which is a very, very different institution from the church of Christ, which is strong in Tennessee, where I grew up (in fact, my childhood experiences attending a church of Christ -- note the small "c" in "church" -- almost put me off going to church for life. Methodists changed that -- for me.)
I'm just saying, never use the views espoused by evangelicals, Pentecostals, Baptists, etc. to paint ALL Christians with a broad brush.
And remember, in general -- this is a crime blog. We won't solve any world problems in comments left here, ever. At best we'll sleuth out a link or two. Know it for what it is, and know when to go outside and take a break from the Internet in general.
Steve
Sounds like you may have been expecting him to react that way, and that's the way it came across to you. As for the priest mentioning the Eucharist, it's because there are other religions that partake of the Host (Lutherans and Presbyterians are two examples) but don't do so in the manner that Catholics do. I'm pretty sure he wasn't singling YOU out.
Soobs | 12.13.07 - 3:31 pm | #
Perhaps, but I didn't misinterpret the part about the funeral mass being a good time for non-Catholics to reconsidering their faith.
Very doom and gloom. I expected more from what I had always heard was a reputable church.
"Luke, you are a longtime poster and I'm always glad when you chime in -- I wanted to correct one misimpression I think you have about "mainstream Christianity" -- we may have different definitions of what "mainstream" means, because I can tell you for a fact that not ALL Protestants are anti-gay. Episcopalians, some Lutherans, and some United Methodists are the opposite -- just look up "open and accepting" and "faith community" or church."
Steve,
Wasn't my intention for that to come across as a blanketed statement. I do know that not all places of worship are the same. Sorry for my poor choice of wording. I think I just get too easily riled up by the zealots and the bigots. I'll work on that for '08.
This is why I do true-crime much better than religion.... I admittedly have a lot to learn.
Come on, this was not a "kid" by any means, this was a fully grown adult.
So, this devil worshipping homo takes 1000 rounds of ammo to a huge Christian church and tries to do 'Columbine' - until a Christian woman with a concealed weapon quickly proves once and for all what a stupid idea that is!
I am proud of that Christian woman!
Luke, just wanted to share a different experience with Catholic church and a particular priest...my spouse is Catholic, I am Methodist. We attend a Catholic church. We met with the priest and I voiced my concerns about not being able to fully participate in Mass and in the life of the church. He told me that it was my decision when and how much to participate - including Eucharist. In fact, he said, "No one here will know that you are not Catholic." This priest may not be the norm, but it underscores the fact that each parish is different. I have been to many Catholic weddings and funerals, and I have never felt excluded by priest or parishioners.
For me, MM seemed to live in a world of chaos that existed inside of him. He was all over the place in his belief systems! Hanging out with the occult group Ad Astra Oasis. I am not really sure they are "satanist". The occult group is based on Allister Crowley's strange ideas about being a magician and the idea that he was a "Priest of Pan". Whatever. There appears to be overlapping periods of time when he was involved with the Ad Astra Oasis group and when he was baptized in the LDS Church. Polar opposites! This clearly seems to be disorganized behavior IMO. Here is what a leader with the Ad Astra Oasis group said about MM:
"Steve Mariner, the president of Denver's occult group Ad Astra Oasis, says Murray attended group meetings for about a year before being asked to leave in September.
Ad Astra Oasis is an officially chartered body of the Ordo Templi Orientis, a ceremonial magic order based on the teachings of English poet and mystic Aleister Crowley.
"He was a mostly quiet, geeky young man," Mariner said of Murray. "He was a skinny little kid. He was your typical I-like-college-over-cars type. He was a voracious reader, as far as I could tell. I never heard him raise his voice. Mariner said the group of about 15 people realized over time that Murray was not fitting in. "
http://www.denverpost.com/rapids...pids/
ci_7696043
It is interesting that he didn't rant and rave about being kicked out of the occult group. I can see where a lonely, bright, geeky, isolated kid would be attracted to a group that thinks they can perform magic. I am surprised that he wasn't heavily into World of Warcraft and on-line gaming like this. He actually may have been a candidate that would have greatly benefited from an on-line interactive game. He might have been successful at fitting in and connecting with other people in the ether world of the internet.
He didn't rant and rave about being kicked out of the occult group, because he wasn't.
His next-to-last message claimed he was still a member, because he was.
The Mariner guy is scarcely credible, he is obviously trying to distance himself from MM.
MM's messages and lyrics are full of the most explicit praise to Satan. Why debate this?
As for the cult group, they use the name 'Baphomet' rather than Satan, as if that matters... Good luck researching that name...
"Perhaps, but I didn't misinterpret the part about the funeral mass being a good time for non-Catholics to reconsidering their faith."
Not to belabor the point, but originally, you said the priest said it would be a good time to "consider your faith." Now you claim he said it would be a good time to "REconsider your faith." So which is it? Because those are two very different things.
will lightening bolts strike me if I tell you I am catholic? Thanks Steve for the lecture above in the bold print.
I went grew up in a Catholic church with no kneeling, guitars, and really wonderful priests and nuns that I think of fondly to this day.
What Matthew was and what he did came from what I believe to be sociopathy and not a normal kid that was the victim of any type of religion or abuse.
After Kimpossible posted that she had read up on The Family I did the same last night.
The closest thing that Matthew was to Ricky Rodriguez's position and condition was in his dreams. Perhaps subconsciously he wished that he could have a reason for all of his anger and rage....I mean....sociopaths don't ever believe they are the ones with the wrong thoughts.
Either way....different religions should be regarded very carefuly....as they are most certainly as different as entire languages when it comes down to it. I know nothing about pentecostal faiths but I have had pentecostal friends and been to pentecostal churches. I have been to synagogue, apostolic church, and utilitarian! I have been to methodist sunday school and to a few Lutheran services. I went with a friend to a very exhuberant four square gospel service. Yet I am catholic.
We are all human beings on this earth and I believe all human beings really are good at heart.... I bet Matthew's mother and father could share some great times they had with him in his life.
Unfortunately there are aberrations of humanity.....as I can only come to grips with sociopathy......like Matthew. People without souls that don't think like the other 99% of the human race. They can be anybody. But when one of them does something horrible.....we look at anything and everything in their life to explain away the WHY...
In my opinion the why in Matthew's case can be answered with one word: sociopathy. Anything else along the way was just his environment and they way he, with his inherent nature, twisted it.
~my opinion only.....~no religious or other affront intended
OT, I am afraid; but I noticed that there are people using Stalin as an example of an atheist killing millions. You should be aware that Stalin's atheism was a result of years studying at a Russian Orthodox seminary and that he was intended for the priesthood, - before he veered off from that road and decided to visit the apocalypse on the Russian people.
Fanatics are always dangerous. We need more doubting thomasses in the world to make it safe.
For anyone interested in reading more about OTO and this group that M was trying to join:
http://tinyurl.com/2w79xg
John,
Thanks for sharing your story. Definitely makes we willing to accept that my perceptions may have been off that day or that it was just a random occurrence. I do not with to paint every faith or place of worship with the same broad brush strokes.
Not to belabor the point, but originally, you said the priest said it would be a good time to "consider your faith." Now you claim he said it would be a good time to "REconsider your faith." So which is it? Because those are two very different things.
Soobs | 12.13.07 - 4:58 pm | #
"Consider YOUR faith," could very well be taken the same way, with emphasis placed on the word "YOUR." (as it was.)
The exact words the priest used were directed SPECIFICALLY at non-Catholics and people who do not go to church.
Again, this is not a personal attack on anyone's faith. I get that people have their beliefs and I do respect that. I am of the personal belief that too much of ANYTHING is not a good thing; and I usually leave it at that.
Not trying to get back to a religious discussion, but I have wondered this for a time and am curious especially in light of the fact that religion is at least a background issue in the case of Murray. Does a Supreme Being create individuals who are severely emotionally flawed, essentially defeated before they start....in other words.....sociopaths and/or psychopaths (I know they are not the same) whose chances of making choices that aren't self-serving, anger-driven, etc. are quite unlikely.
Seems like that would be a discussion topic that could take a few lifetimes to answer.
So, this devil worshipping homo takes 1000 rounds of ammo to a huge Christian church and tries to do 'Columbine' - until a Christian woman with a concealed weapon quickly proves once and for all what a stupid idea that is!
I am proud of that Christian woman!
Fred J. | 12.13.07 - 4:12 pm | #
Do you even realize how bad a comment like this makes you look and how it quite possibly devalues anything that you may say of pertinence? Do you even care?
I was going to overlook that, but it reminded me of why I feel the way I do about certain "people of faith."
An interesting tidbit concerning OTO.
"Charles Manson and the Solar Lodge of the O.T.O."
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig...rise/
manson.htm
Midwest,
I believe the onus is usually placed on the devil or other demonic influences.
Look up the name Bob Larson, when you get a chance.
Midwest,
You said this:
'Does a Supreme Being create individuals who are severely emotionally flawed, essentially defeated before they start"
http://tinyurl.com/2jfx27
Read that. It may help you understand sociopathy a bit more...
Thanks, Luke. I guess I personally do not credit the devil for the actions of humans. I am starting to believe that some humans are born emotionally flawed and, for the life of me, I can't figure out why...but I am getting off the blog topic.
Yeah, Luke, sounds like you had a grumpy priest. I have NEVER seen that happen. And I have been to far too many Catholic funerals in my 39 years.
There are some that are Eucharist sticklers from what I hear, but never have seen it myself.
Also, that group hardly seems satanist. More Wiccan if anything.
Midwest,
I have to say that I lean that way more and more everyday.
I chalk the psychopathic/sociopathic acts of others up to a cocktail of:
A) genetic predisposition/brain abnormality/mental illness
B)(physical/sexual) abuse and neglect during the formative years
C) life experience/societal influence (living and learning)
D) head trauma (whether through abuse or accidental)
Melissa,
The gentleman who died was a long standing and beloved member of the congregation. I'm sure that his death impacted the priest's emotions that day.
Also, I believe you are right, Ordo Templi Orientis is a Wiccan organization, as far as I'm aware.
this is an interesting discussion, but i think you have all missed something very important. YWAM seems like a very dangerous organization. please look at the links below. The fact that people like Paul Huberty and Ted Haggard are/were involved with this group raises red flags and adds credence to the killer's allegations of abuse. there is also evidence that the "exorcism" and other techniques that YWAM uses may cause psychotic breaks.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonl...8/27/16939/
4201
http://vyoma108.blogspot.com/
btw OTO is not wiccan, although it could be allied with Wicca believers.
sorry that second link should have been...
http://vyoma108.blogspot.com/200...th-
mission.html
I had never heard of Ricky Rodriguez before reading this blog. I googled him last night and read a bunch of stuff (till almost 2 a.m.).
I wish I hadn't. It about gave me nightmares. I know there are some serious sickos in this world, but man oh man! A putatively Christian group doing that to little kids--it is beyond evil.
Re Matthew Murray: I am inclined to sympathize with him (and of course with his victims still more). We really have no idea what he went through. The fact that his family was "very religious" does not mean they could not also have been monsters. We really do not know.
I doubt he went through anything comparable to what Ricky Rodriguez went through. But maybe he went through other stuff, almost as damaging...? That does not excuse his actions by any remote stretch. But it does help explain, to some small extent.
I pray for his soul. (Yes, I am Catholic, too--please don't hate me for that, Luke! 
)
I agree with you 100%.
jdchandler- Sorry but I think you are totally off base w/YWAM. My experience w/YWAMMERS is the vast majority are youth that want to be there to learn & serve. They are kids from lots of different denominations. As such there are differing viewpoints; but agreement on central doctrine.
My impressions are based on my interactions w/peers who were a part of YWAM between 2000 and now. I can't say anything about the controlling aspects that may have been a part of the group in earlier years. I can say that many of the rules that may have been a part of early YWAM echo of rules that used to be in place at the college I went to. By the time I attended the school most of those rules were gone as leaders came to realize that rules do not a holy life make. While I attended, there was much more dialogue encouraged: what is wrong, why is it wrong, what do I personally need to do to help myself avoid doing things I know are wrong. Anyway, point being the YWAM in your article is not the YWAM that I believe MM was a part of.
The YWAM people I know are critical thinkers from varying backgrounds who don't always agree on everything.
My guess is that his family hadn't caught up with the majority of evangelical Christians in that they seemed to be very caught up with a blanket of rules to prevent all sorts of sin as opposed to individuals knowing their own weaknesses and setting their own personal rules for themselves (for instance if a person had an issue with lust and found himself to be falling into this sin while watching nude scenes in r rated moves, he should avoid them, it may not be an issue for someone else).
I hope some of that made sense.
I just remembered today, as I read through the first news articles again, that MM had asked to stay the night at YWAM. This and his "kill them all" rantings makes me believe that his initial plan was to gain admittance under the guise of spending the night so that he could then have a more intimate vantage point from which to unleash his terror. I dare say that far more would have been killed if they had let him in that night - possibly as they were sleeping, dazed and confused, and unable to defend themselves or even wake up enough to figure out what was happening to them. Chilling...
Luke wrote: "Do you even realize how bad a comment like this makes you look and how it quite possibly devalues anything that you may say of pertinence? Do you even care?"
No, I don't. I'll say it again:
So, this devil worshipping homo takes 1000 rounds of ammo to a huge Christian church and tries to do 'Columbine' - until a Christian woman with a concealed weapon quickly proves once and for all what a stupid idea that is!
I am proud of that Christian woman!
I care little of what you may think, Luke! I don't have to answer to you! What I have written is 100% correct and you should take careful note of it!
Fred dear, what have you written that is correct? Do you have links? Do you have proof?
Or you are a homo hatin right winger who thinks that any kind of Christian besides you is the devil?
Careful note of WHAT exactly? You havent provided anything besides your opinion, which is respectfully accepted. Except by probably a lot of gay folks, and probably anyone who isnt in your particular denomination of course.
O boy, i just love responding in debates!
I stand by every word I wrote:
So, this devil worshipping homo takes 1000 rounds of ammo to a huge Christian church and tries to do 'Columbine' - until a Christian woman with a concealed weapon quickly proves once and for all what a stupid idea that is!
I am proud of that Christian woman!
"So, this devil worshipping..."
yes, he posted prayers to Satan in his last hours
"homo..."
yes, he wrote of his "sexuality" and his coming "out of the closet" (rofl) on Independent Spirits http://independentspirits.net/e1...topic.php?
55.40
"takes 1000 rounds of ammo..."
yes, 1000 rounds of ammo.
"to a huge Christian church..."
yes, a huge Christian Church.
"and tries to do 'Columbine'"
yes, tries to do Columbine.
"until a Christian woman..."
yes, a Christian woman.
"with a concealed weapon..."
yes, a concealed weapon.
"quickly..."
yes, quickly.
"proves once and for all..."
Yes, once and for all
"what a stupid idea that is!"
Is this the opinion part you disagree with?
"I am proud of that Christian woman!"
Yes, I am very proud of her; but I give God all the Glory.
So you see, every word I wrote is 100% true.
See ya next time, I love responding!
You are ranting, but still have not provided anything.
What was that link exactly?
It's okay dear, it's not like mainstream america really *needed* anything else to consider these sickoes a public threat... seeya next time!
Still nothing. Merry Christmas Fred.
Fred, the thing is, I understand to fully where you're coming from. You just really need to word things differently. Think about this. Do you think that Jesus would have called MM a Devil Worshiping Homo? Come on now Fred, WWJD?
Seriously though, I grew up in a very Baptist home, and tried not to take offense to Steve's last comment, "I'm just saying, never use the views espoused by evangelicals, Pentecostals, Baptists, etc. to paint ALL Christians with a broad brush."
I wasn't offended, because I know what he meant.
Luke, I also don't believe homosexuality is okay. However, I also don't think gluttony, smoking, drinking in excess, white lies, etc. are okay, but I all those damn things - LOL. My point is, if we really follow God's word, we are not to judge others.
Fred, you should know better. I sure would hate to go to a church where the preacher stood up and wagged his finger and said, "all you devil-worshiping homos are going to Hayll!". That would truly suck, and I think Fred, that you MUST be more intelligent than that.
But before you go.. Who are THESE?
Y'see, Melissa, in this case, it has been established that he unquestionably WAS an admitted devil worshipping homo. No matter how cool other devil worshipping homoes might think that is - thanks to the news media, now everyone in the general public knows it! Ta ta!
I'm going to relay an interesting fact I learned about programming and deprogramming in religion. The church I'm talking about is LDS. I am not LDS and never will be. My daughter just converted last March. Her fiance is LDS and served a two year mission for his church in South America. He relayed the folowing to me one day. Serving a mission is 7 days a week, 24 hours a day of doing gods work and nothing else. When you return from you mission there is counseling you must attend to deprogram so you can re-enter regular life. Until you can do that, you are not oficially released from your mission. So we have the LDS Church as I am sure, many others do as well, that recognizes the problems with religious extremism. What happens in other churches that don't recognize or care that this can be a problem?
No, not really. The group that he tried to get into had nothing to do with the devil, and I havent heard anything concrete about his homosexuality.
Where was it established exactly?
Um, in all of his prayers addressed to Satan that he posted in his last hours, maybe?
Which ones? Do you have a link?
And like I said, the link I just gave is his post about coming "out of the closet" to his mother. Read it.
Your link linked to a nonsense message board that had nothing to do with him, nor did it have any links.
It's an "Independent Spirits" discussion. Click the link again, and read the post by Chrstnghmr. It's about the 7th poster down.
Ah, My bad, I see where he is pissed at his mom.
This is your proof?
is this the link Fred is talking about?
http://www.queerty.com/news/chur...sacre-20071213/
don't know where they got those comments though on queerty
Diane said: Re Matthew Murray: I am inclined to sympathize with him (and of course with his victims still more). We really have no idea what he went through. The fact that his family was "very religious" does not mean they could not also have been monsters. We really do not know.
******
Yes! That's what my concern has been. How many times have we seen children abused or killed by their parents in the name of religion? That is what has me so upset about this case. That's why I think the bigger issue here is what the heck is really going on at church? And it can happen at ANY church. That's what happens when humans have too much power and control over people. They use the power to abuse.
interesting point SusiQ, I didn't know that about the LDS church.
I also don't know enough about the Ted Haggard church either, but I remember growing up and mom would have on Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggart - really only because that was what was on Sunday a.m. before church, not that she was really into them. I remember getting VERY bad vibes from them, and I think Swaggard and Haggard preached very similarly.
The LDS thing is very shocking, they actually have to deprogram they're missionaries before going out into the real world? How scary is that? I went to Bible college and studied to be a missionary. It was Jesus 24x7 there too, but we certainly didn't have to be deprogrammed, as it was teaching, not brainwashing. A lot of very bad things are done in the name of God, that's for sure. Or in the name of Joseph Smith in the LDS case.
Read the post by Chrstnghtmr in the link I gave one more time, slowly and carefully.... all of the quotes from qweerty are in that post, and more....
http://independentspirits.net/e1...topic.php?
55.40
Ok, lets just assume he is gay. I have doubts he was accepted by anyone and even HAD sex considering his last post about getting laid.
Where is the satanist crap you are talking about?
I care little of what you may think, Luke! I don't have to answer to you! What I have written is 100% correct and you should take careful note of it!
Fred J. | 12.13.07 - 9:02 pm | #
You do not have to answer to me, but someday, you will have to answer to someone...
This may sound familiar....
"Judgment is mine, sayeth the Lord."
"Luke, I also don't believe homosexuality is okay. However, I also don't think gluttony, smoking, drinking in excess, white lies, etc. are okay, but I all those damn things - LOL. My point is, if we really follow God's word, we are not to judge others."
Exactly my point...
No man is without sin. The bible tells us that Jesus died for our sins. I find it hard to believe that this would exclude the sin of homosexuality.
LDS scares me too Kim. I know there a lot of fine folks in that group though. Have known a few. (more when I lived out west than here though, here its pretty much a mishmosh of all religions)
Luke, I know that I will have to answer to Someone and I am prepared! My conscience does not rebuke me for what I have said, so who are you to tell me to fear your opinion of me? I could care less what it is.
FredJ, you're losing respect quickly. I pay no attention to your inane rhetoric because you claim to be a Christian yet are acting very much the opposite.
You need to go say your prayers little man.
You know Fred. God created homosexuals.
Ok, last off point post.
How about that nutcase who took out a bunch of people in CO guys?
Every LDS person I've known has been so sweet and wonderful, but they're also not the LDS that are involved in the Jeff's cult. I don't agree with their teachings whatsoever, and to be in agreement with a man like Joseph Smith and live by the Book of the Mormom is quite hard to accept. Especially given Joseph Smith's past.
Going to look up the "satanic" cult MM was involved in. Hey Melissa, was MM his real name, or did he change his name so he'd have the same initials as Michael Moore?
"No man is without sin. The bible tells us that Jesus died for our sins. I find it hard to believe that this would exclude the sin of homosexuality."
You are right, the Bible doesn't exclude that sin. Read 1 Corinthians verses 6:9-11, also Isaiah chapter 1.
I was just trying to throw you off Kim lol.
With as much as Matthew Murray claimed to hate his mother, I am really surprised that he didn't start his rampage in the home. The only logical explanation I can think of is he thought that by doing what he did, he would punish her more than simply taking her life.
I've also seen zero mention of his father in any of his diatribes. Nothing good, nothing bad, nothing period.
"You know Fred. God created homosexuals."
Then why does He call them an "abomination"?
Lots of His creatures have corrupted their ways, sometime after He created them. They weren't corrupted when He made them.
Luke, I noticed that as well. But as in most faiths, the mother is the one involved in the religious upbringing. The ones that are really old anyway, not the cultish ones.
IE, the religion of the mother is the religion of the child. I have quite a few friends who have converted (officially) to Jewish because the sons are expected to marry Jewish.
Also know a lot of Jewish men who have had their kids and divorced and later married Catholic women. (not devout mind you)
HE didnt call them anything. The guys that wrote the bible did.
Damnit. Offtrack again.
Ah, that group goes by the teachings of Aleister Crowley. Well renowned for his beliefs in magic and satanism. Just google or wikopedia him if you aren't already familiar.
Well, you'll never convince me that homosexuality is a part of God's plan!
I've heard of more translation inaccuracies in religious books than just about any other.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"Fffeminate" is supposedly a poor translation for the word "malakos" which means soft. In this context, it seems to mean morally weak or morally soft. I've even seen it as "cowardly."
His whole metaphysical world hinged on the fact that he was not one of them.
He was not a hypocrite, he was not a meth addicted Israel praising shabbos goy on the down-low, like the saintly head of the church, Homo Ted Haggard. As a non-homo, he was exempt from high level involvment within his sodomite Church. Each of the higher pages within the Church were touched by Haggard's "gift of life". Haggard openly employed homosexuals within the top ranks of his megachurch.
And yet this Church was Murray's only option for eternal salvation. This Church who practiced a "feel good" Christianity were sincerity did not matter at all.
A Church were corruption and Machvellianism were virtues. A Church praised by the likes of GW Bush. A Church which supported the apartied state of Israel and view the jews as a "Chosen people".
This young man though that he must believe in something that he knew to be a lie to achive salvation. He did not have any allies, no one to back him up. Just surrounded by flag waiving Israel supporting retards who took direct orders from their Messiah, George W Bush, another closet homo Israel supporter.
Add just one Icon of Truth into the mix, heavy metal music, and desaster happens.
Luke, I'll take you on any day in a Biblical debate. Since you used the word "abomination", I'll quote the KJV for you.
Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
God DOES NOT SAY that the man himself is an abomination, just that the act is. In fact, YOU, my man, are no better than a homosexual. In fact the homosexuals I know are much better people than what you're portraying yourself to be.
Luke, I sooooo meant Fred in that last post!
you're name is so Biblical I think that's where the slip-up came in
someone pass the foil please.
Ummmmmm...soooo....here is a link to an interview with the mall shooter's mother....
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/play...ndex?
id=3994163
check it out.
i just watched that video clip nurse. That mother seems really really strange.
Thanks Nurse, I haven't watch the video but I will!
I have my own issues with the Book of Mormon. But I was very impressed though with how the church handles returning missionaries. I think other churches could learn from that. I also think that churches need to pay attention to when they see a follower becoming too involved to the point that it interferes with their life. Such as anything in this world, it's not good for you if it gets in the way of living. For instance a bishop in my neighborhood took an interest in a woman who was taking everything from the church literally, she was severly OCD about it. It turns out it was a mental illness that caused the obsession not the church.
I worry about churches who do not help people they can see that obviously need help, and choose to cast them off because they don't fit in.
From Luke Chapter 6 of the KJV Bible: [45] A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Religious arguments are pointless sometimes. Fred sees a real living being named Satan waging a war on some group that he is a part of. I'm not sure what the group is. I don't know if it's his particular church, Christianity in general, or the entire human race.
Things always seem real to the people who believe in them, and Fred has already dismissed any notions of the non-existence of Satan as unqualified assumptions.
Here is my opinion on Satan. Satan is an imaginary being designed to help people understand aspects of how reality functions. It wasn't that long ago when it was believed that infectious diseases were caused by invisible evil spirits. Now we know about viruses and bacteria, and we no longer need the "evil spirit" model to deal with disease.
Someday, we will no longer need the "Satan" model to understand why the things we see happening are happening. Jesus was very astute. What's abundant in a person's heart is what they will have coming out of their mouths.
Yes, the Bible says homosexual acts are an abomination. So what? Don't do homosexual acts. Where in the Bible does it say that you should be overly worried about what everybody else is doing? Worry about yourself. Did Lot run around trying to convert the Sodomites? No, he just tried to live in peace until God sent word that it was time for him to leave.
Evil comes from the heart, not from Satan. That's what Jesus said.
guys.....go to homepage...steve has his new look integrated and wants haloscan here used only as a reference...
"Religious arguments are pointless sometimes. Fred sees a real living being named Satan waging a war on some group that he is a part of. I'm not sure what the group is. I don't know if it's his particular church, Christianity in general, or the entire human race.
Things always seem real to the people who believe in them, and Fred has already dismissed any notions of the non-existence of Satan as unqualified assumptions."
I never said that. I said, aside from the question of whether or not Satan really exists - that it should be clear to most of society, that the true threat comes from these people who -say- they worship Satan. Like Matthew Murray. And many others. I for one am getting more than a little tired of all of these Satan-worshippers' actions on society, and I could care less whether or not they are worshipping a real being or not. By their fruits ye shall know them. Of course there will be a vocal hate-spewing minority who sympathises with Murray's anti-Christian rants, and try to somehow twist this into a vindication of his condemnation of Christians. And I think people who talk like him ought to be looked at a little more closely.
My Faith regards same-sex attraction as a disorder, not a sin. It becomes sinful only when it is acted upon. IOW, the acts are sinful, not the orientation.
I work in the apparel / fashion industry. I've known a lot of gay guys over the years. Believe me, the SSA orientation is not something they choose. Or want.
If Matthew had same-sex attraction, it's scarcely any wonder. His background, it seems, fit the Freudian profile to a T: domineering mother; weak or absent father. Seems almost a textbook case.
The guy was only 24, for crying out loud. He was probably so confused he didn't know what he felt or thought.
Again, I am not excusing what he did by any remote stretch. It was heinous. He had free will. He had long since passed the age of reason. He had moral responsibility.
Nonetheless, I think his responsibility may have been somewhat compromised (who knows how much?) by his abusive upbringing.
People who have been brought up in normal loving homes do not hate their mothers with this sort of intensity. They do not wander from one bizarre religious group to another. And they do not go on bloody rampages.
No, the abusive upbringing does not excuse what he did...not even close. But it may (partly) help to explain it or at least put it into perspective.
Something very dark was going on in the Murray household, IMHO. We may never find out what. But, whatever it was, it wasn't right.
Society sees him as a fully grown adult. And yes, it does seem you are trying to excuse his behaviour, and shift the responsibility for his actions in exactly the same manner as he did in his own twisted mind. He, no one else, is responsible. But oh no, let's not blame the homosexual satanic cult here at all, they couldn't possibly be at fault, eh? Typical "liberal" thought process. Wake up!
Mike, I thought you didn't believe in God/Jesus? If one believes in God/Jesus, then one must believe in Satan. And vice versa. Of course, if one doesn't believe in God, then of course Satan isn't real.
Evil is in mens heart. Who do you think puts it there?
Hey Soobs, agree with ya. However, the way a lot of people think these days is that the Bible isn't to be taken literally. Therefore Satan could be just symbolic, as well as Creation happening in 6 literal days, Adam and Eve, Noah, Jonah, etc etc. It's actually a pretty intelligent way that Satan has infiltrated the minds of modern man - he's the king of liars you know.
I believe in a literal Satan, I'm not sure how you can't when you watch Dennis Rader in court confess his crimes, or Charles Manson, or so many more. But, I don't believe that's who puts evil in our hearts, the Bible tells us we are all born sinful, so although Satan has a great deal to do with man's mind, the evil is already there, and it's what we choose to do with it, whether to listen to Satan if you will.
Diane - agree with you to a point. I wouldn't call SSA a disorder. Because if acting out on it is a sin, then that tells me that my desire to smoke is a disorder, acting out is a sin. I'm just not sure disorder is the right word.
re: "the Bible tells us we are all born sinful"
I have heard plenty of people and even whole churches make that claim about the Bible, but I far prefer the Bible that I read, because it seems to me much closer to reality. It suggests that we are all born with a clean slate and innocent until human nature causes us to stumble to some degree - some more than others.
But I know some schools of thought disagree with that, so if that's what you'd rather think, that's your choice.
Hey Soobs et. al (with the exception of Fred),
Please please tell me if I every come across as a pompous know-it all SOB asshat like Fred. Last thing I'd ever want to do.
LOL, Kim, smoking a sin? I live in North Carolina. Them's fightin' words. :D
Seriously...I don't smoke myself, but I'm not at all sure smoking's a sin. But then, I'm a Kat-o-lick. We papists condone drinking and dancing, too. (Gasp!!!)
Of course, here in NC, even the Baptists think smoking's OK. Especially the Baptists who work for R.J. Reynolds.
I do think SSA is in a whole different league from the desire to smoke. But I don't think SSA itself is a sin. I think it's a terrible cross to bear--one that no one asks for! Acting on it is gravely sinful, per Catholic Teaching, but so is acting on the impulse to commit adultery or any other serious sin.
My heart goes out to people who struggle with same-sex attraction. Thank God for Divine Mercy!
God bless,
Diane
Fred J: Don't tell me, let me guess. You belong to the Churches of Christ, non? They're one of the few Christian groups I know of that deny Original Sin.
I do not mean that as a slam. I disagree strongly with the CofC--re Original Sin and many other things--but I would never dream of embroiling you or anyone else in a religious debate here at a crime blog. :- ) (BTW, I have a very dear friend who's CofC.)
Diane
BTW, Kim--when my kids were younger, they loved Kim Possible. I loved it, too...it was a hoot!
CofC would be an incorrect guess. I just do not find that the Bible says everyone is born guilty of sin, and I see no reason to believe it personally. But like I said, if you would rather believe that, it's your choice, isn't it.
I could have sworn that Fred said not to assume that Satan doesn't actually exist. All I meant to say is that my belief that Satan doesn't actually exist as a real, self aware, sentient being with an ability to influence events or cause actions in the physical world is not a mere assumption. I've put a lot of research into the question. I didn't come up with an answer overnight.
I have to agree with Fred though, on his last post, because I've never been able to find "original sin" in the Bible either. That's one of the reasons I say that I'm not a Christian. I do believe in God and Jesus. I just don't believe he died for our sins. I don't think it was necessary, because I don't think there was any original sin to begin with.
I've heard the story preached dozens and dozens of times. Supposedly Eve committed the first sin and brought sin into the world. I won't go into the rest of it because everybody has already heard it, but when I read the first three chapters of Genesis, I get a whole different story.
I won't go into it all of it here, but there's no Satan in the story.
What you are calling Murray's "Satan worship" ain't nothing. When I was a kid, everybody listened to Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath. It don't get much more 'Satan worship' than that, but today those same people are judges and city council members and civic leaders and corporation owners and generally the backbone of society.
Murray was a gutless punk who deserves no sympathy of any kind. He was filled with self pity, but he was actually a spoiled little brat. He was a misfit who decided to go out while shooting innocent people at random to show everybody how guilty we should all feel for leaving poor Murray out of the fun.
I had a friend who's mother was a super religious freak. She was Catholic, and she smoked 4 packs of Pall Mall bare butts and drank a fifth and a half of vodka every day. She heard voices telling her that her kids were reincarnated saints. She would end up in the state hospital about every 8 or 9 months.
Him nor his brothers and sisters ever killed anybody. They had bad home lives as do millions of others, and they never killed anybody.
Satan and Satan worship and/or exposure to wacky religion didn't make this kid kill. He did it because he was a gutless coward and couldn't solve his personal problems the way everybody else does by just getting over it and moving on.
Diane, lol to everything you said! Cracked me up. So, my belief is that when you've become a Christian, your body is now the temple of Christ (very Biblical) so smoking/drinking/overeating, etc. is not treating the temple right. Seriously, I know that sounds crazy, but I do believe that. Or a better analogy...
As a Christian, we're supposed to live like Jesus. I really doubt Jesus smoked or drank excessively.
That brings me to an MM point. I was raised to believe (in my church) that if you didn't witness to someone, and that person died and went to Hell, that their blood was on your hands. I believe that I was probably raised very similarly to MM. And not so much by my mom, but by the pastors I listened to. Would I have ever killed in retaliation? No way. Is that because I'm pretty level-headed and don't have any mental issues? Maybe. But, I think I know exactly how MM was raised, being raised pretty much the same way (knowing many Fred's along my way), but had enough intelligence to differentiate from anger of wrong teachings and knowing correct teachings.
If man would just read the Bible and not listen to other preachers/teachers, it would do a world of good. The Bible is an amazing book, but taken out of context, well, that leads to cults and religions that teach many things incorrectly.
I truly believe that MM had major psych issues, coupled with a religion that was pushed on him by an overbearing mother, this just simply ended in disaster. I do still, and always will, blame him and him alone for what he did.
Oh yeah, and Diane... awhile back, like 3 years or so, I was searching or a good username for some other forum I was on. I'm incredibly terrible at coming up with usernames. My husband suggested KimPossible, being that my name is Kim, and since I loved watching the show with my son, I went for it.
I stick with it now because so many people know me by it in the truecrime genre, but it's just so dorky to me. I wish I'd always just gone by KimP (my last name does begin with P) but alas... I'm KimPossible now. I think maybe this next Halloween, I'll need to brush up on my superhero skills
As a Christian myself I take issue with it (it being the bible) being taken literally. Are we really to believe it was an apple?
If Cain was so afraid of leaving the garden because of the "others" what was he afraid of if A & E were the first two people?
The context is HARD to follow, because what is doctrine and what is metaphor? 6 days to God was more likely given sciences take on it 6 billion years to us.
I still cant figure how the hell Hanukka (or however the person spelling it spells it) is at a different time of the month as Christmas but sometimes the same (although always seems to fall in December).
"Are we really to believe it was an apple?"
I'm sorry Melissa, I can't find no apples in the Bible either. And Cain's "others" that he was afraid of could have been his younger brothers. Adam and Eve had a lot of children, and it doesn't say how old they were when Cain killed Abel. They lived for over 800 years so those younger brothers had children and grand children, so there were probably lots of people around by then for Cain to be afraid of.
And Jewish holidays, just like the Christian Easter, change every year because the Jewish calendar is Moon based. Their holidays follow the phases of the Moon which fall on different times of the month each year.
Wow! These comments have definitely changed over the days. There have been a few (I think of KimPossible & Mike off-hand) that have been respectful - even though they believe differently from each other.
I am a Christian, an evangelical at that - I was a part of Pentecostal churches for 8 years, now I'm a part of a Baptist church (anyone want to label me some more?). In 1997, I was saved (asked Jesus to come into my heart) through a YWAM ministry. I later joined that ministry for 3 months and have remained friends w/ people still in that ministry. I would not ever make a blanket statement about the people in that organization as a whole. Most of the people that I met loved God and yes, fanatically loved God and loved other people and just wanted to share that love with others. There was no brainwashing or manipulation. Though as I mentioned a few days ago, I can see how that could happen, as I have definitely seen it happen within Christian groups and think that there may be some things in MM past to look quite closely at. However, to bash thousands of people (they have something like 1100 *worldwide* bases) because of something MM chose to do is wrong.
Plus, the way I have heard many of you tear apart Christians breaks my heart. I have no issue with those that do not believe, but to bash *me* and blame *me* and call *me* these horrible things because you don't believe what I believe is incredibly disheartening.
I think that this entire crime could have been discussed, and even to have explored the spiritual manipulations that may have happened within MM life, without have to rip apart Christians. I am thankful to those of you that remained tasteful and respectful in your opinions, but for those of you that grouped me with the horrible things you've said, you've left an impression on me that I find hurtful and I'm sorry that you have such all-encompassing hate within your heart.
MZ - who exactly offended you?
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