Steve: THANK YOU!!
Yes, thanks. Nice intro too.
Sparrow | 02.15.08 - 6:53 pm |
"Meaning not concluding the same as Mignini? This is getting really messy".
Non conclusive because he is not offering definite answers to questions such as precise time of death,if she did or didn't have sex before being murdered etc.This is what the paper says.
Non conclusive because he is not offering definite answers to questions such as precise time of death,if she did or didn't have sex before being murdered etc.This is what the paper says.
nicki | 02.15.08 - 7:16 pm | #
Yes, thanks Nicki. I wasn't wondering about what the paper said, but what they didn't say. I was trying to read between the lines.
Steve,
Thank you so very much for all of your efforts to help us in our quest to determine what happened to Meredith Kercher.
Sparrow,
I have not read the exact filing of the pathologist Dr. Lalli. From what I did read, it appears to me that Meredith had not been raped. However, I am not of the opinion that she was just going to share herself with anyone other than maybe her new boyfriend. There is no doubt in my mind that Meredith Kercher lost her life because she was not willing to participate in something, because afterall, RG's DNA is in and on her body. And she lost her life and was found semi-naked. Now it can be argued that this was part of the cover up, but still, she lost her life because she did not wish to participate in something, and based on the crime scene evidence, it was about sex. So in reality, although she may not have been physically raped, there still was a definite intent on the part of the people involved.
nicki,
Is this correct (from the article)?:
Miriano (chief prosecutor of Perugia?) said that according to Mignini the decision was warranted, but Miriano declined to go into detail, and neither Maginini nor Lalli wished to comment.
bpcl
I agree
lack of signs of force are no proof of rape not having taken place or sexual force by other means like having the knife at your throat.
Different article: they say Mignini was very irritated by Lalli speaking to the press before submitting the autopsy report. It is also mentioned that Mignini boss is supporting the decision. As to hinting that Lalli has been fired because his conclusions don't support prosecution hypothesis, I am not sure, Mignini is described as a "professional that has always been reluctant to release information during his investigations".
http://notizie.alice.it/notizie/...42.html?
pmk=rss
Thank you Steve. This page loads in a flash! I used to be able to make a cup of tea while the other one loaded 
Mr Huff -
Thank you for once again guesting us a new blog section...I hope this one is even better then the last
However, I am not of the opinion that she was just going to share herself with anyone other than maybe her new boyfriend.---bpcl
I am not of that opinion either. But I firmly believe she was not raped.
Well, they are under strict orders not to release anything to the press. It sounds like the Medical Examiner violated this order. This is what I think has people upset over there.
Goof
soozie UK
aha
me too, I vacuumed, did the washing, took the cat for a walk
As to hinting that Lalli has been fired because his conclusions don't support prosecution hypothesis, I am not sure, Mignini is described as a "professional that has always been reluctant to release information during his investigations".
http://notizie.alice.it/notizie/...izie/
...42.html? pmk=rss
nicki | 02.15.08 - 7:40 pm | #
I wasn't hinting. It was conjecture. I was really asking for the thoughts of others on this possibility. So, thank you.
bpcl -
"However, I am not of the opinion that she was just going to share herself with anyone other than maybe her new boyfriend. There is no doubt in my mind that Meredith Kercher lost her life because she was not willing to participate in something, because afterall, RG's DNA is in and on her body. And she lost her life and was found semi-naked."
It maybe that it was sexual assault heading towards rape...but the rape itself (as in penetration) was never facilitated due to some reason or occurance we are unaware of...;or it may be one of the things already speculated...such as Meredith freaking out causing the assailant/s to change their action.
At the same time...perhaps Guede himself gives us a clue. In his testimony he said full sex with Meredith did not transpire because he didn't have a condom...if this is actually true it's even more important if he doesn't have a condomn...he'd leave DNA evidence of the rape...perhaps he realised this at the time and held off penile penetration. 'If' this is actually the case it would be important...as Guede's lack of having a condom would infer there was no pre-meditation.
Nicki, has anyone else gotten into trouble over leaks in this case? Because it seems there've been a lot of leaks that have nothing to do with Lalli, but I haven't heard of anyone else getting into trouble for it.
Michael (UK)
Nice show of support for Skep. I too had to watch that fan club and chief mousecateer chew on Skep for making an assumption about a wild goose chase. I too have been banned from the site and was powerless to defend, she is somewhat wrong though as the web site still allows me to do the PI cross-word puzzle.
My new beef is that in her back handed aknowlegment that she was wrong she still states that the mix up and witch hunt was worth it if it quiets down her worse critic on the other blog, meaning this one.
Alot of you all should be offended that she has omitted you from having scathing critisim of her site. She should know the general feeling of distast for her fan site over here and stay away. I for one will stay away from the fan club site. It is just too awful to watch that train wreck every day.
You guys crack me up.....you are such good deducting sherlock holmes' types that you couldn't even realize you were chatting with Amanda's Step Father earlier this week!
goofing off!
Michael(UK)
Based on these confluence of events: RG being invited to the cottage by AK without Meredith knowing
(Meredith never said to her friends that she was going to meet with anyone and she left both AK and RS without saying where she was going implies to me that she had no way of knowing anyone would be at the cottage)
(Also, AK was the only one who had a key to the cottage and RG lied when he said he went there with Meredith at 8:38 pm because we know she did not arrive back before 9:00 pm)
The crime scene evidence
(DNA of RS on the Meredith's brassiere
and possible shoe print and AK's DNA on the knife(transferred from RS flat
We do not know if Meredith told either RS or AK when she was coming back that night or not, but both their cell phones turned of simultaneously at around 8:45 to 9:00 pm)
You do not think a case can be made for possible premeditation?
Goofy,
A young woman was brutally murdered, left to die a painful death. At the very least, the people who come here are searching for the truth. They have for the most part, been cordial with anyone who comes here. I have heard the expression, a drowning man will grasp at straws. What is wrong with that I ask?
Nothing wrong with grasping at straws....
goofy
they were talking to someone claiming to be her stepfather who provided information which anyone could google and included a four hour old news story on the medical report as if he predicted it...also the person was far too desperate to be believed...this forum is way too small to be worth the risk of damaging his step-daughters case...and then of course there is his trusty co-worker Akbar....gimme a break. Why would he....you think he is bored?
I'm so glad Goofy's still here. He's really helping Amanda's "father."
why would you not want to believe it?
Amanda's father is Curt.....I don't know him personally.
Goofy,
Tell me, why do you come here if it bothers you so much that people grasp at straws.
Amanda's father is Curt.....I don't know him personally.
goofy | 02.15.08 - 8:21 pm | #
I know who Amanda's real father is. You missed the quotation marks.
Sparrow | 02.15.08 - 7:57 pm |
"Nicki, has anyone else gotten into trouble over leaks in this case?"
Not yet, but more trouble might be coming...The Chief prosecutor was very clear in TV a while ago.
"Nicki, has anyone else gotten into trouble over leaks in this case?"
Not yet, but more trouble might be coming...The Chief prosecutor was very clear in TV a while ago.
nicki | 02.15.08 - 8:22 pm | #
Thanks Nicki. I always appreciate your knowledge and insight, here and elsewhere.
Bcpl, goofy's just having fun. He's playing with us because he has nothing better to do, and he can't operate on our level and win. He has to be sneaky and mocking.
thanks Sparrow
I don't know. Maybe I misremember everything
goofy,
Yeah, right...you win...
Michael and FOP,
Thanks for your words of support and that is all I will say on the matter. "Best leave it," as somebody says in Spinal Tap about the death of drummer Stumpy Joe. I don't know how it's being spun right now and frankly do not give a toss, except I hope the accusation is dropped. It may have been leveled at me to silence all the other meanies who are at war. Anyway, wasn't me.
We're here because we want to understand something and agree that free inquiry, give and take, and self-governance are the best way to get there. There are other paths, but I don't really like them much.
goofy,
Please. What you say is not true. Some people here, most of us in fact, knew precisely who we were interacting with. I'm sorry that he left with a bunch of questions pending and hope he plans to come back. Otherwise, it might look like his reaching out to us was a ploy of some sort, related to the release of the former coroner's report.
Sparrow,
For a moment, yesterday I thought I was dealing with some intelligence, but that statement,
You guys crack me up.....you are such good deducting sherlock holmes' types that you couldn't even realize you were chatting with Amanda's Step Father earlier this week!
made me realize, that nothing could be further from the truth. Thank you
All,
Have you heard the joke about why Mickey Mouse wanted to divorce Minnie?
Because she was xxxxing goofy!
But Skep, Mickey was wrong. Goofy doesn't get any.
"I don't know. Maybe I misremember everything."
Is that your best version of the truth goofy?
My, you are xxxxing goofy!
Sparrow,
Apparently! That's why he's so goofy.
"Hey, goofy.
Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here."
Or start making some sense.
Glad you can see it now bpcl. It was hard watching you get tossed about. But you haven't lost anything. You were just being earnest and nice.
"Apparently! That's why he's so goofy."
I think it's the other way around, actually.
Sparrow,
I thank you. really. Nothing will deter this march for justice for Meredith Kercher and her family.
Someone comes on your blog with says he is CMellas....and then you guys try to pick it apart. He has been reading 3 major blogs for a couple of months now. He probably has even popped off at a few of you during that time. He chose your blog because he thought people here were interested about the case.
I think he just wanted to be able to speak for himself and his family so you guys wouldn't....but no....as you little rascals might have it, you decided to question everything and anything about him and his family and the case while you continued to believe he was an "imposter" for his PR engine....
None of you apparently have any faith.
Yeah, I could just make up the following from his email about posting on your precious blog....but this is what I got back on Feb 12.
From: Chris Mellas
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:02 AM
To: I BLANK OUT MY NAME HERE
Subject: I went and did it
I posted on truecrime haloscan as myself.
Check out the post and let me know what you think.
Think what you want....you all miss an opportunity to have dialog with him but in turn you play your games...good for you...
No such thing as Truecrime Haloscan and he would know that. He is a computer guy. Only people that are not aware that Haloscan is just commenting software and is part of many blogs would think that it would be part of the name of a site. This is the truecrimeweblog.
goofy,
Once again, you have it pretty much all wrong.
Chris Mellas had fruitful exchanges with many people. But we are not a homogenous blob. Some people wondered who he really was, some wondered why he would want to post here, and some wondered whether he should under the circumstances. If he came to convince everyone of something, he failed because we don't all think alike. He's welcome back any time. You're welcome here too, but I for one wonder why you are here. What do you have to offer?
SB,
Why bother! There is nothing there.
Just jumping in randomly here for a moment to note: DAMN, you people are fast. Thanks for moving with such alacrity, everyone.
Please keep it civil.
Goofy, a good number of us believe we were conversing with CMellas. A few people didn't believe it, and some reserved the right to remain skeptical, which is not a bad thing.
Personally I believed he was who he said he was. And in view of that belief, let me reiterate with different quotation marks, I'm really glad you're here. You're really "helping" CMellas. If I were him, I wouldn't buy you a coffee, and I'd do more than just hit you on the head.
Sorry if I offended, Steve.
No one person offended, Sparrow. You all generally keep it close to civil here, but I did want to make it a point to throw that reminder out there, since it is very easy to be contentious in a discussion like this.
"Guede" in voudou (a religion born of African and French cultures) refers to the spirits of the dead/fertility who rule death, cemeteries and the grave, in particular Baron Samedi, his wife Mama Brigitte, and their children Nibo, Ti Malis, and Plumaj. Guede are frequently represented by phallic symbols and noted for disruption, obscenity, debauchery, and having a particular fondness for tobacco and rum
I think goofy is cmellas alter-ego
Steve,
We love you!!!!!!! That is why we are fast!
Chris I think came here because you have to understand for 3 months now he has heard nothing but negative/mis-information about his daughter, family and anyone else the press was able to get their hands on. They have been cruel to say the least.
So why not defend his family and even his daughter. He has not received or seen anything that would even at the slightest make him think that his daughter has committed this hanous crime or was involved. Again, you know he has information about the case that only the defense and prosecution may have knowledge of....so please, give him the benefit of the doubt...if you can.....or not...up to you.
Even if he can't get into the details of the crime and investigative information, he still is an excellent resource. He could at least explain to you what is reported incorrectly or correctly.
The timing of the medical reports made it look bad I suppose but those were not due until April so he had no idea that they were going to be released so soon. For goodness sake, they have moved pretty slow and dilerberate with their investigation so why would it all of a sudden change...he was surprised at the early release (I think Mignini was too).
Look, believe what you want. Most have already made up their minds and maybe that is why he has not come back.
Again, as it has been stated....there are details about the case that can't be exposed to the media in any form...including here....I guess because he is such a nice guy he just felt compelled to say something. Maybe he got some things off his chest at your expense.....who knows. I only hope that when many of you learn what many of us already know, you will be kind enough to return to him and give him your kind regards.
I hear it coming....what about......go ahead...I will fill it in later...
I'll wait for Godot. Thanks though.
My God Anonymous.....haolscan.com/comments/trucimeweblog/
3206507372815935682/?a=
You are so fricking picky .... you got the jist of the email quote...you knew what he was talking about...
Oh, my reply to him was...
What is Haloscan?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Mellas
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:02 AM
To: HID MY NAME
Subject: I went and did it
I posted on truecrime haloscan as myself.
Check out the post and let me know what you think.
-Chris Mellas
Then I replied to him...
Wow....people there were so civil towards you....
I think your post brought back some of the humanity that has been lacking.
I think maybe I was wrong..
Look, believe what you want. Most have already made up their minds and maybe that is why he has not come back.---Goofy
Why do you continue to totally ignore the fact that many here believe he was who he said he was, and that several did have fruitful exchanges with him? It is evident if you read what was written, and several people have mentioned it directly to you.
Certainly there were some who were contentious, and/or unbelieving, but that's what we all get when we are operating on the internet, and in this case the issue is very important no matter what side you are on. And speaking of sides, this discussion group is made up of many people with many different opinions of what may have happened. Why do you continue to speak as if we are one entity with one opinion? CMellas was and is VERY welcome here. But as I wrote in another post, it must be a very difficult thing for him to do. It's possible that the friendly people here could not make up for the others. But the others have a right to speak, and although most welcome any words we can get from CMellas, we have to each decide for ourselves how we accept or don't accept them. He has an obvious angle of interest in this case. We should not be expected to forget that.
Sparrow,
I concur.....
Wow....people there were so civil towards you....
I think your post brought back some of the humanity that has been lacking.
I think maybe I was wrong..
goofy | 02.15.08 - 9:14 pm |
No you weren't wrong.
You got some hostility yourself because you were disresectful and mocking.
He was not. This is a much more civil place than any I have seen that discusses this subject.
I think the point that becomes at issue for us Sparrow is that when we make a comment in defense of Amanda or Rafael, we get lashed out and then it doesn't stop there...people then continue to lash out at us personally (us meaning anyone who might have a valid point). I read John T try to lecture Chris about his family and all that age crap. Who is John T to make such remarks about someone who doesn't know Chris? Chris can defend himself yes....but then I sit here and watch how quiet people are when they know what is said is out of line....so maybe that is why I am here myself....to just be part of the "game" so to speak.....
Giuliano Mignini, the chief investigator, has re-interviewed British friends of Ms Kercher who, like her, were on an Erasmus EU exchange programme in Italy and who have returned since the crime to complete their studies. Reports said that they had confirmed their earlier testimony, in which they said that Ms Knox appeared "proud" to have discovered Ms Kercher's body and had given details of the crime scene that only someone who had either witnessed the crime or committed it could possibly have known.
John T _
"About wounds.
I never knew, but I heard a few years back how people don't realize that it takes a lot of force to remove a knife from a wound. Then I stood on a nail that was stuck in a plank, and it cost me all of my strength to pull it back out and I realized that about the difficulty in removing a knife that I'd heard about and I knew it was true.
I imagine, then, sometimes removing a weapon/knife is harder than getting it stuck in."
John...indeed...I wrote a short basic introductional lesson on the dynamics of 'knives' for those who may be unaware of the basic principles of the dynamics involved when they are used against a living human/animal body. For many, their understanding of knives comes from using chefs/kitchen knives on meat.
However, a mistake would be to apply those principles to a living body where circulating body fluids are in place with the heart still pumping and blood pressure even close to normal...added factors are bone structures such as the ribs or spine which can cause a blade to become lodged, as well as 'living' sinue and muscle which is designed to close round a wound (as well as whatever maybe inside it).
However...the real problem is presented by the circulating body fluids (i.e.blood) and the internal pressure of the living body (i.e. blood pressure). For a foreign body being inserted inside by force not via a natural orifice (i.e. a stab) forces of suction work on that body..l.the larger the foreign body...the greater the suction force.
Take a hyperdermic needle...this is a small body...at least in girth...however the forces exerted on that are greater then you perhaps imaging. Normally, needles are put into internal bodily tunnels (veins) or they are inserted sub cut so the forces exerted on them by the body is not that great...however, take a hyperdermic that has a long needle and hyperthetically stab someone in the stomach hilt deep with it...on pulling to withdraw you'll be surprised to find it feels 'stuck'...you'd actually have to make a fist good and firm around the syringe and give a real hard yank to get it out. Magnify this 'many' times for a knife...even more the bigger the knife.
In war the bayonet is still used by many armies, as well as the British army. In the rules of war it is perfectly acceptable to use them. However, it is against the Geneva Convention to whilst having thrust your bayonet into an enemy to pull the trigger and fire into them. Why were soldiers doing this in the first place so commonly as to require a law being made against it? It was not to inflict further damage on the enemy as many may think, which in any case goes against one of the main purposes of a bayonet which is to save you ammo in close combat...as well aa save the need to shoot into an enemy in close combat where the round may pass straight through him and into one of your own pals to his rear. In any case, trust me when I say that when someone has a belly full of bayonet many things are going through their mind but attcking you or anyone else is not one of them...they are out of action. In nearly all cases a bullet was fired into them to enlarge the hole to help break the suction forces so the bayonet6 could be withdrawn easier. You may notice watching the old films...big beefy soldiers holdiing a long thick rifle for good grip are still not strong enough to simply yank it out...they actully have to raise their foot and plant it on the enemy giving a vicious kick forward as well as yanking back with might...these are the forces involved.
In military and hunting knives certain features are usually inbuilt in the design. For example, close to the hilt a two or three inch portion of the blade is 'toothed' and are wider then the blade portion of the knife/bayonet...but these are not sharp, rather...they exist to 'grind' a groove (rather then saw) in the ribs say...to prevent the sharp blade portion getting stuck in the bone on withdrawl. Most importantly are the 'blood grooves' the side portions of the knife. These allow the blood to run out along these grooves so breaking part of the suction and making withdrawl easier. Finally, these knives tend to have very robust in girth handles so you can get your fist right round it...combined with grip ridges of some kind on the handle...you need a firm purcahse to be able to exert the necessary force to with draw it.
Now take a kitchen knife existing for the purpose of cutting 'dead' meat. It's different in every fundemental way. Knives that are blades do not have a serated portion, they have no blood grooves, they are very smooth and shinyalong each side (no contouration in shape...increasing suction hold)...the handles are very thin in girth and smooth...very bad if it's hilt deep in something with suction forces and you need to grip to pullo it out (add the possibility of that handle also being slippery with blood)...well, if an impliment similar to this was used on Meredith and not something made for the purpose, the latter being unlikely, I can tell you several things.
The murder weapon was inserted hilt deep, or close to. Whoever thrust it in would have had a hard job getting it out. We know they did since at some point the victim bled freely. But a question one has to ask is how long before this was done. Not only would it have been very difficult...but it would have been a horrble job. I suspect they may have waited a while before bolstering themselves for a second attempt. Until this point, whilst the victim would have been bleeding...it would have not been profuse. The blade would have operated much like a cork...once removed the victim had bare minutes to live...even less if thrashing around or fighting for breath, panic/high stress...this would have raised the heartrate increasing further the flow of blood out of the wound.
I also don't believe the knife was merely yanked out. Force would have had to have been applied the other way..i.e' gripping the face or neck and pushing it away or bracing it in place. This may have been the course for some of the bruising on then neck/face area and even the broken bone. Finally, I don't think this was the end of it...I am willing to 'bet' that the blade was rocked back and forth to enlarge the wound to enable it's withdrawl.
If I'm correct, this would answer certain questions...such as the apparent difficulty in being able to give a precise estimation of the shape and length of the knife that dealt the fatal wound...enlarging and tearing the inside of the wound by rocking would have enlarged the wound and effected its shape increasing the possible range of knife size. In regard to length, they at least know that the knife was at least a certain size as it passed through the neck...but not how long the portion protuding from the other side was or whether the knife went in hilt deep, or if not how close to the hilt. This is a major problem...it means at best due to a knife's shape or length they may be able to rule it out, but many potential candidates can be ruled in as 'possibles'.
goofy,
Let me try one more time. I took the time to prepare a list of questions to which Chris could answer yes, no or case related. I posted that yesterday, or was it the day before, and have seen no reply whatsoever.
These were mainly clarifications of what has been reported in the press. If you are Chris' colleague or a friend, please invite him back to answer those and other questions.
Again, this is not a homogenous blob but a buzzing laboratory of thought, opinion, agreement, disagreement. Many of us expressed compassion for what Chris Mellas the individual must be going through. There was one incredibly hostile voice, John T, but he has the right to speak and was not completely off base. I personally would have preferred that he skip the "information" from the dreadful article that showed pictures of the family home, referred to Chris as a toy boy and spouted a bunch of dime-store psychology. The article was crap.
Most of us here don't read that crap. And we're interested in finding out what happened and seeing justice done for Meredith. But we aren't a bunch of patsies who are going to refrain from asking the hard questions.
When Doug Preston posted here the other day, he addressed his post to all those who think Amanda Knox is guilty and ended it with a reference to the anti-Knox camp. There are probably a couple of people who fall into those categories here, but they certainly doesn't describe most of us. I think many people have tried to explain that. We are individuals; we deal with one another as individuals, and anyone is free to chime in.
Speaking for myself only, I would like to say that when you step in and deliberately misrepresent the views here like some kid in a schoolyard who just wants to pick a fight and has no concern for accuracy or even reading what is being said, well frankly that bores me stiff.
Goofy, your other name starts with an 'A' right? I forgot the spelling. This is a place where, thankfully, for the most part, we've been able to stay on topic. I'm kind of straying from that now, but I hope it's for a good cause. Part of the reason we're able to do that is because we keep it civil for the most part, and we don't react and get lured out too often. I think that most people here are really serious about learning the facts and finding out the truth. Most of us are open-minded and flexible. I know I've changed my mind several times about what I think happened as new evidence has been revealed, and changed my mind about some of the suspects as more information has become available. It's true that as in any other case people's opinions are colored by their own experience. It would be helpful if you and CMellas would understand that, and let it roll of your back if some people use overly judgemental words in describing Amanda. But this happens in regards to all the suspects. Again these are individuals who have a right to speak.
As far as John T is concerned, he is one guy. And there are no thought police here to step in and correct anyone (aside from Steve who has the right to delete posts- thank God he uses such good judgement).
Personally, if someone here comes in and says something I think is out of line, I think the target can take care of it himself. And I think CMellas did a good job of it. Ignoring them is a good tactic. If someone is out of line with me, I know how I would handle it, and I wouldn't expect others to come in and chastise the guy. That would lead to a total distraction from our topic.
Again, here, for the most part people are REALLY interested in the truth of this case. That's why your posts stood out so much as goofy, and even U-Bob, if that was you. Y'all weren't serious about it all. Looked like you were just goofing off.
Fair enough Sparrow!
"Certainly there were some who were contentious, and/or unbelieving, but that's what we all get when we are operating on the internet, and in this case the issue is very important no matter what side you are on."
For myself, I am on nobody's 'side'...neither am I 'anti' anyone. My current position is as a result of where the evidence and path of logic, plus maybe a small degree of intuition has taken me, not by 'belief' or 'wish'. My view is open to change since we do not as of yet have all the evidence and some we do have needs further verification/clarification/ruling in/out. Therefore, I don't choose' my position, it's chosen for me by what's 'there'. I therefore wish everyone wouuld stop trying to pigeon hole everyone into either an 'Anti-Knox' or 'Pro-Knox' camp. The 'Anti' tag is emotive as it implies a 'hatred' of Amanda. I believe her at present to be guilty of some degree of wrong doing but I don't hate her or anybody else. I 'want' to view her as innocent...but I have to have the evidence to take me there first. Otherwise, it's blind faith or a 'wish' or some political/racial/social issue, or some other issue one may imagine that's not actually really important to this case but something 'else', but certainly not about truth or what's right. Therefore, I wish everyone would relax with the 'us' and 'them' crap on 'all' the blogs. Whilst there are those, clearly, that will never change their view no matter what evidence comes to light...most belong to the 'Will honestly consider all new evidence as it comes to light and change my view accordingly if the evidence merits it' camp, as do I.
This point whilst quoting you Sparrow was not at you, rather I found its use expedient to make a general point to 'them'...them being anyone that tries to cause division by labelling 'everyone' as being in black or white camps and in the process detracting from the proper purpose of this debate...who killed Meredith and why.
SB, Sparrow,
Have nice weekends won't you!
so maybe that is why I am here myself....to just be part of the "game" so to speak.....
goofy | 02.15.08 - 9:29 pm | #
I think I can confidently say it's not a game for any of the regulars or semi-regulars here. It obviously is on other blogs.
I don't know how you can be a friend to CMellas and consider this a game. Again, he should do more than hit you on the head.
SB, Sparrow,
Have nice weekends won't you!
bpcl | 02.15.08 - 10:17 pm | #
You too!
Fair enough Sparrow!
goofy | 02.15.08 - 10:14 pm |
Thanks goofy. I hope CMellas comes back if he can. But I understand if he can't. Please consider seriously my post at 10:19. It's not hostile, just honest. You owe him an apology.
Now see Sparrow,
You try to read too much into my comment. I did put quotes around the word.
So please, here we go.....don't try to compare my friendship based on a quoted word. You are getting personal and not understanding what I am saying. It would be better if you just asked me what I mean by "game" instead of making acusations.
Would "part of this community" suffice?
geeeeeeeez
Skep,
OT a bit off topic..
I thought I read on another blog that you thought that the Italian Woman (Candace) was masquerading as CMellas. I'm confused because you posted this on the PI site last night
Do you really believe that?
Just curious....
You try to read too much into my comment. I did put quotes around the word.
So please, here we go.....don't try to compare my friendship based on a quoted word. You are getting personal and not understanding what I am saying. It would be better if you just asked me what I mean by "game" instead of making acusations.
Would "part of this community" suffice?
geeeeeeeez
goofy | 02.15.08 - 10:24 pm | #
I don't know what you mean by "comparing." If you meant "basing" as in "don't base my friendship on a quoted word," I wasn't doing that.
Yeah, you put quotations around the word, but I'm telling you, it's not a game her for anyone else. And you were playing around before. If my daughter were in jail, on suspicion of murder or associated crimes, I would not want my friend doing that.
No one else here is doing that, and we have no relative in jail in this case. I'm not getting personal at all with you, I'm just having an honest conversation with you.
I would like you to be a part of this community (which is not a game), but you have to realize we are going to talk about what we believe are the facts, all of them. It might be harder for you to look at some of them honestly because of your friend, but we can't hold back because of it.
And if you goof around with the facts or people here, you're not going to be taken seriously at all. I'm not hostile to you at all goofy. I wish you'd change back to your other name though.
goofy,
I made that comment ironically because it seems I was momentarily mistaken for another poster who did a very bad thing. Don't worry about it. It's all over. That whole misunderstanding has been cleared up between Candace and me. Candace is not Chris Mellas, and I never really thought that.
Thanks for asking, though.
Can I make a general comment? There was a stupid misunderstanding with the person who runs the PI blog, but it has been resolved. Candace runs her blog differently and she has a different viewpoint, but I hope people will give Candace a break and just get on with the topic at hand here. Even if you've violently disagreed with her, and even if she has kicked you off her blog, it's her blog and her right. Remember long ago, last weekend, Robert M asked that in general we leave that one alone? I hope everyone will.
Goodnight.
In regard to the truthfulness of Amanda Knox, as it has been raised again lately.
One thing that causes me concern regarding the question of the 'truthful nature' of Amanda is her 'apparently' turning to religion in prison and in the course of doing so asking the prison priest what the 'ressurection' is (music to any priest's ears). Now, I'm no Catholic...I've never been to a Catholic school (although as a kid I was in a Catholic cub scout pack and later moved up to the Catholic sea scout pack. However, I have made it my buisness to educate myself about the Catholic Church since it has had such an important impact on social/political/economic/military/spiritual/legal issues to name but a few, for the last two millenia
The ressurection is the most important event in the Bible and most important calender date in the Catholic Church, if not the whole of Christianity. I also know that in Catholic schools, especially private ones, the Catholic religion is central on the curriculum. Amanda has also, I presume been raised a Catholic. It therefore is inconceivable to me that Amanda could be anything less less then very familiar with it. Amanda has been described by some as naive...even if true that does not equate to being stupid...especially as her academic record indicates she's very bright and her friends have said as much. I therefore do not find this request being made to the priest coming from an 'honest' place...for an 'honest' purpose. Indeed, there is something that appears distinctly calculating about it.
Therefore, since it's not case related, I was hoping Mr Mellas...you may help us clear this up? Do you not feel a little annoyed in spending all that money on a private Catholic schooling for Amanda that she doesn't even know about the resurrection? Were you aware that she did not know about it? Can you explain how she would 'not' know about it?
Mr Mellas...perhaps you could also tell us....how good was Amanda's Italian?
Third question for Mr Mellas. You state that Amanda's story has remained consistant from the beginning...As I recall, at the beginning Amanda claimed to remember very little about the day/night in question due to cannabis/alcohol inflicted 'amnesia'. Has that 'memory loss' remained consistant too or has she regained it? If the memory loss existed/exists how can any 'alibi' given in, and sustained, during that time carry any weight if Amanda is suffering from memory loss either full or substantial? Has Amanda suffered any similar memory loss for any other days or only the day, or more specifically the 'evening, in question?
Mr Mellas, if it's not too personal to ask, does Amanda either currently or during the past few months take/been taking any prescribed medication for either any acute or a chronic medical complaints?
One final question Mr Mellas. Can you explain that since she was there at the time the postal police arrived and was with Amanda and RS, why Filomena did not see Meredith's body? Does Amanda still maintain that she 'did' see Meredith's body at this time?
I thank you for any answers you can give.
Michael,
amanda isn't Catholic. She went to a Catholic high school because it's very strong academically.
I'm just curious, since I've read every single post since day one, where were the links that stated Meredith was so moral? You all speak of her like she was and I'm wondering if that's really true. No disrespect to her, but everyone's trying to piece this puzzle together with facts and Amanda's personality as well as Guedes and Raffaeles have been picked apart in the worst way possible.
anotheranon | 02.16.08 - 12:38 am asks about morality.
Morality in terms of a murder victim is completely different than morality in terms of murder suspects.
For the victim, "morality" issues are tied to the number of people on the suspect list. If the list is short you then qualify for high morality marks, as with Meredith. Lower marks for Amanda because the list she provided (before she was a suspect) was much longer and that's all "morality" has to do with anything, in my mind.
For living suspects, however, "morality" is tied to inclination, capability, intent, and motive and investigators often have to ask tough morality-based questions using a fine pick just to get to the bottom of things. Just my view.
AnotherAnon?
Skep, where are you? For I must say, this one has 'roused my snakish temper".
I mistakenly gave you caps, but now I give you what you deserve...
was Meredith Kercher so moral? I could NOT care less. She was murdered. In her home, in her room, and it sure seems like by people who were known to her. No disrespect? Amanda, maybe. Meredith, No.
Hark? What's this? A new defense tactic? Blame the victim? "if only she didn't struggle, she'd be alive today?" - Dream on, Alice/Amanda. You'll get to Wonderland."
Goose
Fly by Night
Yet again cooler heads prevail. You said it much better than I could/would/SHOULD have. Victims of assault are ~used~ to having to explain why *they* asked for it. Another Anon? I ask only that you come up with another alias so I can be sure to skim over you. You make me ashamed that we are the same species.
Melissa (Goose?),
I hope I didn't let you down. I was out for the evening. My first reaction to another anon's posting is something like pure shock. "Links" to the victim's morality?! I don't quite know what to say.
The victim's morality does not come into play here; it simply doesn't. That should be obvious.
Goose,
Thanks for your support.
Nicki:
“The paper doesn't say what happened to the cat..
.__http://www.corriere.it/cronache/ ...ra_uccisa.shtm”
Many thanks for this article. It dates from 6th November (the day AK RS and PL were put in custody) and the gist is that as early as 4th November the forensic evidence allowed the police to conclude that the downstairs flat was not involved because the traces of blood found there were from the cat.
That means that the traces were minimal -- no smearing of walls etc downstairs as has often been said on this blog -- and that the police were incredibly thorough in sweeping the whole site (which is obvious, but many seek to question that). The blood apparently did come from the cat
’s injured ear. I wonder where the poor creature is, and whether someone is feeding it. In any case none of the protagonists seems to have gone downstairs at all.
Michael (UK):
“Can you explain ... why Filomena did not see Meredith's body?”
See Nicki
’s reply to my question on the previous blog. We do not know when Filomena arrived; and we do not know whether or not she saw the body.
It is time to review the ‘hard’ evidence as far as we know it, which is partially.
Skep,
The truth isn't always popular. I just couldn't have you taking the heat for me, but, then, I'm honest.
xo
(for what it is worth, xin is my favorite poster, SB a close second)
Regarding Goofy and his/her reflections on Chris M's appearance here, I wouldn't put too much into his/her representativity of Chris M. Abdar for me is much closer. He and Chris M have referred to each other in their comments. And Adbar's last one was this:
Abdar | 02.14.08 - 3:51 pm | "ChrisM is busy today and tomorrow. If he has time to visit you will be lucky .... Be patient. Much has happened (in a good way) in regards to the case and I am sure he needs time to work through recent events."
Chris M is virtual-world savvy enough to know that any blog is a smorgasbord, and that he can pick and choose between the greasy and low-fat, hydrocarb or protein, fish, poultry and meat. He doesn't need Goofy to arrange which plates are on the table.
Oh, must someone have huge respect for a person, as if they are some kind of film star, because his step-daughter is maybe a murderer?
Maybe a murderer, definitely a liar involved in a murder case.
I don't believe Mellas was here to discuss, why would he do that? It would/could be potentially damaging. It means he had a predetermined agenda, to alter people's opinions about Amanda.
But, in fact, I found him to be aggressive.
Telling me to keep out of his way then
and all that
So I wonder if this aggression is how he taught Amanda to deal with life?
Skep, I haven't looked at the other place for a day, and it seemed I missed something, and whatever I missed is all deleted anyway.
But since everyone is offering you their support, you've got mine too. (Even if it arrives late!)
Michael
What I meant was, you said the lack of repeated stabbing, shows there was not rage, but the job of getting the knife out, after that fatal blow, I would say would have stopped repeated stabs. And the extent, that fatale blow went to, could have made whoever did that to Meredith realize it was enough.
I see violence like this as a reflection of what is going on communally as a world society/force, in the pathetic attempts at a successful civilization, where world leaders are hypocrites blab blab blabbing about God and religion and Jesus using that as an excuse to do bad things where they are themselves unable to reflect what Jesus stood for, mercy, forgiveness and real love, where he said turn the other cheek and love your enemies. Instead they the leaders show that if you cannot get your way use violence. Is it any wonder that down at street level, even kids are now using violence more than ever before? Look at Britain, especially London and all opf the killings by kids of 15, to oyther kids of 15, 13, 11, one kid shot to death as he slept in his own bed.
Those kids all as they've seen in their short lioves are self-obsessed egomaniacs like Blair, and Bush, who stand behind violence instead of using intelligence and appeasement.
I see those people as indirectly guilty of the violence we are seeing.
People are born then become slaves to money then die.
It's no wonder that a ttrue balance is missing and people like in this case, go insane.
It is not getting better.
Good morning all.
Skep my support and respect too as always with the rather clever and intelligent people that grace this blog, I am honored to be able to read and assess your views... and the goal as always is to determine facts and the guilty ones.
I also am banned from 'that' site... and have now stopped even monitoring was is going on there as it is totally irrelevant to the case.
One bit that caught my eye was the posting of ANON questioning Meredith's morality, well responded Goose... it remind me though of a number of posts of that 'woman' also raising questions about Meredith and also her quotes about her being hung over and partied out...
Brian - Thanks for the pictures, they are very insightful, that looks like a mark as if someone had grabbed her, I play rugby and have had bruises like that on arms where finger was dug in, squeezing. Also the two of them do look like they have only just got out of bed not like they have had showers, roomed hair etc, were they from the day after the murder?
Steve thanks for starting the new blog and I concur super fast
Goofy - I think you are on the wrng blog, there is one on Settle PI perfect for you.
Have a good weekend everyone
John T - I liked the response about having to bleach the boxer shorts ... and of course 'commando'... made me chuckle :o))
I think the only option for Chris M and the Amanda defense team is to revert to the amnesia bit if he is saying that are going back to her original alibi....
Only problem was she has stated in between amnesia attacks:
1) watching a film
2) reading a book
3) having a shower
4) making love
5) with RS
Only problem with this is that RS did not suffer from amnesia and was:
1) Watching a film
2) surfing the net
3) not reading a book
4) he was on his own
3) ALONE
Also if the memory loss storyline used did will this apply to the morning also.
1) did she use bleach to clean RS apartment after the apparent flood? - This was her excuse for taking most of the cleaning materials out of the cottage. I would be interested to know when these were removed by AK as no mention has been made about this.
2) did she go back to her flat and shower before discovering it was a major crime scene . I understand that she left RS at 10.30 and did not alert him until 11.30, what did she do in that hour. She said she found the place with the door open!
3) Did she put on the washing machine, timewise and incrimination wise I think her response will be no
4) did she or RS phone anyone before postal police hit the scene?
One final thought...
RS alibi out of the 3 is the strongest by far... also his role in the crime I think was probably the lowest (in direct involvement in the murder) compared to the the other 2 suspects that are being held at present.
If this is so I think if I was he I would feel the happiest (not the wright word I know) as AK if she was involved cannot implicate him if his only role was in cleaning up her mess.
Likewise AK cannot implicate Guede, as if she was the enabler of the event then she knows that if Guede tells how the whole thing happended (he has already hinted at it...) then she is doomed.
I think AK is stuck in the middle, she knows to the left is Guede who probably dealt the fatal blow... on her right RS who helped clean up afterwards and offer her part of the alibi.
And.... you have RS who by saying she Amanda was not be between 9 and 1am covering his ar*e as they say...... He knows that he did not deliver the fatal blow, he also knows the events did not take place due to him...
If he as he...
1) I will tell the truth now and suffer the consequences
2) Or stay quiet and stick to my story and hope the dna and footprint and pc evidence evaporates just like the shoe print did!
I hope this makes sense??
If I was him....
1) I would tell the truth now and suffer the consequences regarding my actions
2) Or stay quiet and stick to my story and hope the DNA and footprint and pc evidence evaporates just like the shoe print did!
As none of them have been charged yet...
If indeed RS was only involved in covering for AK and Guede what type of prison sentence would he get for perverting the course of justice and interfering with the murder crime scene?
Sorry if this was covered before but I cannot remember it being discussed only that for murder and not helping someone that is wounder (which may still apply to RS)
Thanks
Raffaele has graduated:
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/
artic...z=HOME_INITALIA
Headline: Meredith: Sollecito has graduated in computer science
PERUGIA (16 February) - Raffaele Sollecito has graduated in computer science in prison in Perugia where he is being held for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The discussion of his dissertation lasted about twenty minutes. The topic of his thesis in computer science was Genetic Programming. The only family member present was his father, who after the ceremony remained to talk with his son. "It went well", said defence lawyers Marco Brusco and Luca Mauri. "Raffaele was very nervous, but also satisfied. The first step is over." The mark [??? – "voto di laurea"] was 99 over 110.
It seems to me that there are three ways of looking at this crime, (or four, if you count the "it's all Mignini's fault, in fact he probably did it himself" point of view).
1. Some people think all three of the suspects are implicated in some way in the murder. This might be the case, but it still needs to substantiated with more forensic evidence against Knox and Sollecito. At this stage, it's hard to see how those two could have been actively involved in a bloody knifing without leaving more substantial evidence of their presence in the room where the murder took place.
2. Another possibility is that Guede acted alone, and that the general paucity of forensic evidence against Knox and Sollecito results from the fact that they weren't there and simply didn't do it. This might be the case also, but the problem with this argument is the bizarre set of stories that Knox and Sollecito have told, that have at various times included attempts to blame Patrick Lumumba and/or each other.
There is also Sollecito's diary claim that Rudy Guede is the "real murderer" but that he's worried about what stories this real murderer might tell that might make Sollecito's own position less secure. What stories could he tell about someone he'd never met?
The case for Knox's and Sollecito's innocence still depends on their providing a satisfactory answer to the question, "Where exactly were you that night?"
3. There's a third group of ignorant people like myself who haven't got much of a clue about what happened at all.
Trying to poke around in my ignorant way for a bit of a clue, I asked Chris Mellas a few days ago whether Rudy Guede had been to the girls' house before the night of November 1st.
Chris's reply, in full, was: "Finn,
I can't go there. Sorry."
I found that very interesting, because Chris had been happy to confirm that Amanda had never spoken to Rudy on the phone, and he even said he would be prepared to upload her phone records (suitably modified, for understandable reasons) to back this up. He'd be happy to do all this because, he said, the phone records aren't part of the case.
On the other hand, we've also had reports from witnesses claiming that they had seen Guede at or around the house on at least two previous occasions - and that Guede was particularly interested in the two English-speaking girls.
What I understand from all this - perhaps mistakenly - is that Amanda Knox's step-dad has confirmed that Guede's presence in the house prior to the murder is considered (by Knox's family, at least) to be a significant part of the case.
I notice also that when Amanda listed to the police all the men she'd invited into the house in the few weeks she'd lived there, she never mentioned Rudy Guede. In fact I haven't heard her mention him at all, even though she has considered in writing the possibilities that either Patrick Lumumba or Raffaele Sollecito ("he had blood on his hand but I thought it came from the fish") might be the killer.
This still leaves me in the "don't know" camp, I'm afraid. I don't know whether Meredith Kercher invited Rudy Guede to the house, or perhaps one of the other two housemates invited him instead, or if he just invited himself. I don't know if Amanda Knox invited him, but clean forgot about doing so.
But the one thing I'm pretty sure about, because Chris Mellas himself confirmed it, is that Rudy Guede's previous visit to the house is considered a significant part of the case.
FinnMacCool | 02.16.08 - 8:10 am |"I notice also that when Amanda listed to the police all the men she'd invited into the house in the few weeks she'd lived there, she never mentioned Rudy Guede."
Good posting Finn, as usual.
If I may, let me add that while Amanda hasn't explicitly named Guede since the Giallo, she has described him, without assigning a name:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...=null&
offset=12
"In her statement, on which she wrote "All the police must read this", Ms Knox listed "all the men" who "knew Meredith": Mr Lumumba, a Swiss man called Peter, a North African called Ardak, an Algerian called Yuve who worked at Mr Lumumba
’s bar, a Greek named Spyros and a Moroccan that she knew as "Shaky" and who worked in a pizzeria. Witnesses have said, however, that these were friends of Ms Knox, not Ms Kercher. She also described Rudy Hermann Guede, the fourth suspect, who was arrested in Germany this week and is awaiting extradition to Italy, but did not name him, even though she is said to know him well. "
Observer -
"amanda isn't Catholic. She went to a Catholic high school because it's very strong academically."
Thank you for correcting me on this. For my part I made this mistake because here in the UK it is a requirement for Catholic school that the child be Catholic...as well as both parents. You actually have parents here converting to the Catholic faith simply to get their child into the school...but first they are actually tested....have to go to Catholic church every week for a year, they're that strict. Some after this are still refused. I assumed the Catholic Church was uniform in its rules across borders (they aren't known for flexibility), at least in the basic premise the child actually be 'Catholic' to attend their schools.
John T -
"What I meant was, you said the lack of repeated stabbing, shows there was not rage, but the job of getting the knife out, after that fatal blow, I would say would have stopped repeated stabs. And the extent, that fatale blow went to, could have made whoever did that to Meredith realize it was enough."
It's a very good point you make. At the end of the day one has to assess whether someone so full of rage to pass a knife right through someones neck on finding they can't pull it out...would cause all that rage to just 'vanish'. Most men regard their fists and other body parts as weapons....if he 'was' deprived of the knife he was not deprived of 'weapons' (even use a chair or lamp if needed). Meredith would have been in no position to defend herself. If deprived of his knife, would he also be deprived of his rage?
Yesterday SoozieUK and LoveWolf were going over the bugged prison conversation between Amanda and her parents. I wanted to get some more on that, and try to confirm if Amanda's father told her to shush up. Well, I was sort of incorrect on that point.
We have to be careful even of the "serious" newspapers, at least the English language ones, as the reporters piecemeal information together, and I'm sure they deal with different stories and can't dedicate time to become experts in any one news item.
From the Times, there are two articles from two different days which cover the bugged conversation. I've stitched them together (careful with my suppositions on exactly where the stitching occurs). This doesn't really change anything, but enhances a little the original Times report.
The first quote is from the extensive Sunday Times article from 13 January 2008, which I'll quote in normal letter:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3159584.ece
The second article is a normal Times news article from 2 December 2007, which I'll quote in italics (if I can figure out italics)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/
europe/article2983881.ece
" On November 17, in a conversation that was bugged by police, Knox talks to her parents at the prison.
According to the 11-page transcript, Knox said the previous day was “bad” — the television news called her a liar.
“Yesterday was a bad day. The TV news called me a liar. But I didn’t do anything,” she tells them.
Knox’s mother tries to reassure her.
“They’re trying to frighten you into saying something,” her mother says.
Knox replies: “It’s stupid; I can’t say anything else. I was there and I can’t lie about this.”
Her father advises Knox not to talk to anyone.
Her lawyers, however, said she was referring to Sollecito’s flat.
Knox protests that other prisoners stare at her as if she was “a horrible being”. She adds: “My cell is cold and I’ve got a headache. I feel better only during my walk. I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good.” [this last paragraph repeated exactly from the December 2 article]
When Knox
’s mother tells her that Sollecito’s lawyers are saying “nasty things” about her, Knox immediately changes the subject. “Mom, as soon as I get out of here, after the court hearing, let’s go shopping,” she says.
Kermit | 02.16.08 - 11:07 am | I'm on a learning curve with the strange codes here. I've tried to clean up my prior posting ref the amalgamated bugged conversation:
" On November 17, in a conversation that was bugged by police, Knox talks to her parents at the prison.
According to the 11-page transcript, Knox said the previous day was "bad" - the television news called her a liar.
"Yesterday was a bad day. The TV news called me a liar. But I didn't do anything," she tells them.
Knox's mother tries to reassure her.
"They're trying to frighten you into saying something," her mother says.
Knox replies: "It's stupid; I can't say anything else. I was there and I can't lie about this."
Her father advises Knox not to talk to anyone.
Her lawyers, however, said she was referring to Sollecito's flat.
Knox protests that other prisoners stare at her as if she was "a horrible being". She adds: "My cell is cold and I've got a headache. I feel better only during my walk. I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good." [this last paragraph repeated exactly from the December 2 article]
When Knox's mother tells her that Sollecito's lawyers are saying "nasty things" about her, Knox immediately changes the subject. "Mom, as soon as I get out of here, after the court hearing, let's go shopping," she says.
-
Chris M have referred to each other in their comments...
This is not correct. The commentor signing cmellas never mentions an Abnar...not that it makes a whole lot of difference since I don't a family member would comment here anywhere.
Anonymous | 02.16.08 - 11:23 am |
Here we go again:
"My coworker that showed up here was offering up unsolicited support which was very nice of him, though I may smack him for it anyways since I am now having to deal with questions he raised, it was thoughtful of him so perhaps I will buy him a coffee after the smackdown." cmellas | 02.13.08 - 5:04 am |
In addition, in a posting I made to Abdar at: Kermit | 02.13.08 - 4:18 am |, I said "Whatever the situation of Amanda's guilt / innocence, of course she is subject to the legal processes of Italy. Amanda's family's acceptance of that shines compared to others non-acceptance of it."
Cmellas, not Abdar responds to it at cmellas | 02.13.08 - 5:39 am |, saying "Thankyou, it has been difficult but given that she is innocent, we feel that we will be heard at some point and that is some solace...not much but some and it helps."
I haven't looked for other instances of recognition by the two, but I can assume that Cmellas the poster, if he had wanted to repudiate a relation with Abdar, would have done so, and not referred to any "co-worker".
Let's not waste time with this discussion, please. And if you want to open up a dialogue and not make just a one-off comment, I suggest you choose a moniker.
Folks, I have reason to think the Chris was for real, and that "goofy" was a co-worker. I can see a lot of data you all can't -- one reason I always try to correct folks when they refer to commenting here or at any weblog as "blogging." It isn't -- you can't see other's e-mails, their IP addresses. You can't delete their posts if they're obnoxious. Something could go kerflooey tomorrow and take these comments away, but I'd still have my blog posts in my e-mail. The blogger is also the webmaster, so there really is a big difference.
One reader came up with "blogment" a long time ago, and that's closer to accurate, because plenty of comments I get would make decent blog entries, I do agree.
I have a lot of experience in people trying to troll under different hats. I can still be fooled, of course, but I think you all are being overly suspicious, based on the data in my stat trackers. That's still just a personal opinion, though. I'm not so sure that the Madeleine McCann PR model applies that well to this case.
For the record -- the IP has been edited:
IP Address: 66.194.74.**
United States
Washington
Bellevue
ISP: Chris Mellas
Returning Visits: 9
Visit Length: 7 hours 9 mins 21 secs
If cmellas and Abnar are who they say they are then their flippant style of posts were VERY disturbing to me. They presented absolutely nothing of substance to convince me of Amanda's innocence.
Edda and Curt's body language and expressions of pain on 20/20 indicated to me they are scared and they both know Amanda is in serious trouble. Chris M might want to take a trip to Italy and see for himself.
~~
Just so you all know -- I'm not trying to take anyone's side here -- I think the intro to this open thread makes it clear how I view this case right now. But I do believe in being fair, and I also think that a lot of discussion about these people being who they say they are eventually derails the thread as a whole, and ends up essentially off-topic.
In reply to Steve's post above, and not having scrolled back up since last night, my gut feeling last night was that "goofy" is a coworker of Chris' and that he and "abdar" are the same person.
My only problem with goofy last night is that he was being rude to just about everyone. Maybe that situation has evolved...
Steve,
I agree with Indie. I see no reason to question their identity but they--in particular goofy--are not being particularly respectful of the board. It's like they want to derail the discussion.
As you rightly say, the problem is that they are succeeding if we spend all day talking about whether or not they are who they say they are.
I asked goofy last night and will ask again: do you plan to contribute to the discussion or derail it? I hope it is the former.
I'll even go out on a limb and say I have no doubt you are who you say you are. You sound like that guy.
Anonymous --> will you please establish a handle as sometimes regulars are on other PC connections that default to "Anonymous". You've been consistent in your tone so you must be just one Anon., [perhaps a descendant of that Great English Poet?] but still would you please choose a handle.
WOW, it looks like I tell Everybody to Take a Break Until March 'cause nothings going on, and Even More Interesting Stuff Breaks Out. I have some reading to do!!! Has xin been back?
Yet again, PLEASE, no more about Candace. If you want to B&M about her, create your own blog at blogspot, call it "Italian Candy Ain't Sweet" and have at it there.
And I see that Steve H thinks quite highly about Dog Preston, for all of you taking shots back on Halo III.
Until I get a chance to read the last several hundred posts at Halo III...
as Middie would say
Ciao
.
KERMIT
Before this gets too long, could you re-post your links to the various presentations shortly, so we can just say "go to top of this thread, Kermit such & such"? Thanks.
I agree Steve. I am sorry to have made a comment about the whole CMellas/Abdar "issue" but those two are just not sitting right with me.
I was wondering to those in the know:
On April 1st will Amanda's defense team need to be prepared to solidify whatever alibi they feel is most suited to convince the judge she was not involved with the murder? In other words will more facts surface either from the ILE side or defense side?
~~
To anotheranon, who asked for links to Meredith's morality (did you mean as in hypertext links???) said: "No disrespect to her, but everyone's trying to piece this puzzle together with facts and Amanda's personality as well as Guedes and Raffaeles have been picked apart in the worst way possible."
Meredith Kercher was murdered. We cannot today examine her current actions because she ceased brutally to be in a position to act on the night of November 1. We don't need to ask her for an alibi or an accounting of her actions: UNFORTUNATELY, we know precisely where she was when the murder occurred.
For some insight into the person she was, the police retrieved a diary from her room that may give us some idea of what she was thinking around the time of her death. Maybe it will give us some idea of who might have done this to her; maybe no. In the Le Monde article I posted here, the journalists says this about Mez: "...a victim that everyone describes as reserved, sensitive and a little shy."
Minotaur,
We know when Filomena arrived, according to the Judge's report I quoted yesterday:
"On 2 November 2007 at 12.35pm persons from the Postal Police of Perugia went to Via della Pergola 7 in order to track down Romanelli Filomena, since in the same morning Mrs Lana Elisabetta had found on the lawn of the garden attached to her house, in Perugia, Via Sperandio 5b, two mobile phones of which one had the sim card of Vodafone 348 467 3711, belonging to the same Romanelli.
Upon reaching the destination the agents found outside the building on Via Della Pergola 7 two youths, identified as KNOX Amanda Marie, who lived at that address, and SOLLECITO Raffaele, who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri military police, called because on that morning they became aware of a window with the glass broken and had suspected a theft.
In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment."
We don't know, however, if she saw the body. But I'm sure she knows. So we'll find out.
...But "coming into her own", which is I think a US phrase. Re Patrick L's later comments about offering her a server/bartender job just a day or two before her death. She'd told him her own ["wicked mix"?] drink recipe to impress him. [Halo II, I think.] Also, see the Halloween pics for her developing public exuberance. This would have been an important transistional year for her, but more for personality development than say education -- these are mini-"Grand Tours". I've written before on this that "Meredith was going to have a great year."
I do believe that ILE has identified and interviewed ALL the males who could qualify as "boyfriends" even tangentially, or they should have to eliminate all possible suspects. We don't actually know that as no statement on interviews beyond "the boys downstairs" has ever been released. Those they did tell the papers had been interviewed.
reposted from haloscan
Michael (UK),
99.999% of the time the dog bites the man, man bites dog .001% or less.
Forensic pathologists know that, for the most part, a slashed or stabbed throat supports the theory of a male (usually an angry male).
Forensic pathologists look to the suspect(s) past.
Question:
Why did mignini fire the med examiner?
Didn't he like the results?
Can he do that?
Question:
Has Davies(the lady in france) been found guilty or has she confessed?
Steve,
You can tell them I am Abdar.
Since I said Abdar was going silent, I didn't want to use that name anymore. Youcan confirm my email...
also, I think I came clean with attitude last night with Sparrow...go back and read....
I am one person, but many of you came out and got all over my program in her or skeps defense. Its a two way street....so I haven't said anything more...nor I don't know if I will after today
I or Chris can't bring anything to this blogspot.
Good luck to you all.
Signed,
goofy, Abdar, does it really matter?
Ubob,
For a good and humorous explanation of Lalli's demise, see Frank's perugia shock blog entry for yesterday.
As for Jessica Davies, I can check that status of the case if you want, but I think she confessed immediately and even called the ambulance.
goofy, Abdar, does it really matter?
googy | 02.16.08 - 1:16 pm | #
I like Abdar, and I thought we had some good talks last night.
abdar (goofy/googy),
Are you speaking for Chris when you say you can't bring anything to this blogspot?
Can you or he tell me if the questions I posted the other day are all case-related and therefore can't be answered?
I'm sorry if you felt I was all over you last night. It just didn't seem that you wanted to bring anything constructive to the discussion when you arrived. Maybe that's unfair. I'll go back and reread your posts and the replies.
I hope Chris will come back and join us. But it is important to know that this is not a support group or a group of close family and friends whose role is to provide comfort. Chris certainly needs that right now; his world has been turned upside down and he's stuck in a process that has been set in motion and must play itself out. There's little he can do to alter that. It must be difficult. If he came here, it must have been to discuss the case and defend a point of view. That is legit. He offered to answer questions and we accepted his generous offer. There was some background noise, some dissenting voices. We've all had to learn to deal with them, sometimes just by ignoring them. As his friend/coworker, maybe the best thing you can do for him is to help him ignore the voices here that are openly hostile. My feeling yesterday, though, was that you wanted to rile folks up. That doesn't seem helpful to your friend.
RobertM:
I think it was a mojito made with Polish Bison vodka, which PL would have appreciated as a nod to his Polish wife.
How many Poles does it take to build a case in Perugia?
GOOFY!! --> NO!! Don't go. I just got back!!!! I haven't read cm or your posts yet!!!
What matters is direct conversation. If you can bring direct factual knowledge or even indirect emotional understanding, stay around, please. (Must warn you, xin bites.) Sure there are (most) people here who've made up their minds. Why, JohnT isn't half so sure as rob from London. (ha!) And on the other hand Pinecone hasn't re-appeared to restate his basic thesis so I'll do it again:
which is, as far as we know, and bcpl please note this, there is NO trace of AK's DNA as blood or otherwise in Meredith's room -- none, nada, nyet. Whereas what isn't there of Rudy's? And we still have the two "outlier" DNA on the cotton swabs [perhaps the very ones that can be seen on the top of the duvet in Kermits pics] which would seem to show that yes TWO (2) people were in that room with Rudy. And everything that could be argued that places AK there that night is really--so far by what the ILE has leaked to the press--just what you would expect to find of someone who was living there.
If ILE had a true smoking gun piece of evidence on AK, then in the much earlier words of seattleite's attorney boyfriend, it's finito, throw away the key. BUT they DON'T because if they did, they'd have TRUMPETED it all around. That's been their SOP all along. No DNA, no trumpet. Getting very very very circumstantial.
As to the question Douglas Preston posed on Halo III re Mignin's ongoing participation as prosecutor, no, I'm not happy to see that given his past history and that's not just with Preston. He's got an idee fixee. But once assigned a case, it takes top-top-level intervention, as happened int he Madeline case, to get someone like that off. Natural bureaucratic politics.
So, goofy, stick around and please contribute concretely. Once, on another of Steve's threads, we had key witness posting after she'd testified (vetted through Stee). Now THAT was interesting!
SB No, I don't. How many Poles does it take?
(I was never good at sussing these things out beforehand.)
Goofy / Abdar / Chris M ... when the missionaries started travelling the world, they didn't expect pagans to be kneeling down and praying to the Virgin Mother Mary after just two briefing sessions. Come on, you are old enough to brave (or ignore) the flak and tell us about the Cross. And if you keep at it, you may just achieve that some of us incorporate this or that of your dogma in our traditional tribal ways. Or not. But, if you try, you're already getting results that 20/20 doesn't get. Don't worry, we're not going to boil you in a cauldron with sliced tomatoes, garlic a bit of salt.
-
Robert M,
Well, so far we have PL's wife, possibly the Polish student who saw AK and/or RS, and a male student from Poland who was interviewed (why I can't remember) in the early days.
Too bad the dumpster scraper is Albanian. But there may be more to come...
Robert M. | 02.16.08 - 12:10 pm | "Kermit ... could you re-post your links to the various presentations"
Here they are. The image quality (+ some bits of animation) are much better in the Powerpoints (the files with .pps extension) rather than the .pdf's.
Updated Floorplan
Giallo-Floorplan-Updated-pt0a.pps (2.5 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?eao191ydit0
Giallo-Floorplan-Updated-pt0a.pdf (6 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?1gwtvgo90nw
(Updated floorplan of cottage with crimescene CSI video and photo images)
-------------------------------------------------
Relation of girls' house to Raffaele's and Rudy's place
PerugiaLocations-pt0b.pps (1.5 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?2u1utdtzx2j
PerugiaLocations-pt0b.pdf (2 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?dn1myyzidkh
(Relation of Girls' house to Raffaele's and Rudy's homes, also to location where mobile phones were found. Presentation from early December.)
-------------------------------------------------
Pre-crime movements of persons of interest, on Nov.1
GialloDiPerugia-pt1.pps (4 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?19ewg34myso
GialloDiPerugia-pt1.pdf (15 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?eh1wetdyoyx
(Movements of main persons involved, in the afternoon and early evening of Nov.1 - no actual crime events documented. This file is useful because of the documental hyperlinks at the end - mostly to newspaper articles - which are associated with the individual events depicted in the presentation ... This file is from very early January, so some comments are outdated: eg. the English friends did not return to Perugia for further questioning, the Time of Death has varied, and the finding of Raffaele's DNA on the victim's bra changes the possible scenarios.)
-------------------------------------------------
Attempt to understand structure and history of cottage
GialloDiPerugia-pt2-TheHouse.pps (4 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?6dggy94u0am
GialloDiPerugia-pt2-TheHouse.pdf (10 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?cb1311zyz1s
(Good for understanding relation to road, carpark, town)
-------------------------------------------------
Premeditated Merlot
Giallo--Mudedes-Merlot.pps (4 Mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?1113ydkuj14
(Potpourri Powerpoint of odds and ends based loosely on Charles Mudede's visit. There's no pdf yet, will try to get it out this weekend)
-
ubob (sorry about the U cap earlier):
If you're interested, here is a translation from a French source of Miss Davies' sad story:
A 28-year old British woman was taken into custody on Monday, November 12, 2007 after admitting that, under the influence of alcohol, she had stabbed a 24-year old man she had met in a bar in Saint Germain-en-Laye. (Note: this is basically a suburb of Paris).
Early Sunday morning, Jessica Davies, still inebriated, called the police to say she had stabbed a man she had spent the night with in her Saint Germain-en-Laye apartment.
Extreme sexual experience
Initially unable to explain her actions, she said she was suffering from a memory lapse, and only remembered having met the young French man in a bar a few hours earlier. She later said she had been inspired by the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia, and was looking for an extreme sexual experience.
The best thing that could happen to me
According to friends who have visited her in prison, the young woman said that this was the best thing that could happen to me. According to her former boyfriend, Jessica didnt even mention the poor guy. She went on to say that this event had been a wake-up call and that she was going to seek treatment for her mental and drug problems.
Thank you, Kermit!
Drat, I thought we had a legit joke there, SB, as in 3 but only if one of them brings a hammer and nails becasue the other two bring the books (for the case). Weak weak weak. I just can't do jokes. A pun, on occasion.
I can completely understand that for Chris Mellas there would be good days, and there would be bad days. On the good days we might expect to see him here. For the record, I want to say that I would love to see Amanda set free from all this - if she is innocent. I do believe there is some potential for that to happen and that there is ample evidence of a warm and generous spirit within her. I think there are a lot of cards yet to be played and you adults are never going to be able to understand what her reality is like - you can only make of it what you are able based upon your own experiences. This deal is not done and if Chris can provide substantial support for her innocence I'm more than willing to listen.
RobertM,
I'm working on that joke, but am not much good either. I've rejected a couple of ideas as horribly inappropriate.
Robert M:
How about it takes 3, but only if one of them is really Albanian...
Though some here treated him respectfully, I can understand why Mr. Mellas lost interest. This seems to be an instance where factionalism didnt serve us well.
He was put on the defensive and was really in a losing situation. Bombarded with more questions than he could have possibly handled, if he didnt answer them hed be perceived as evasive and if he did, he risked cross-examination that he probably couldnt have fully responded to even if he wanted.
Also Doug Prestons input was dismissed as less than relevant, unfairly, I think.
Too bad the dialogue seems to be split into two camps that sometimes cant communicate with one another. But lets move on
SB, best we just stop there.
daniel, I'd rather keep trying to mesh the two, in our fashion here. You know from Halo I what theories I first came up with. You also know that I'm adept at taking Pinecone's otherway position so working from the defense side on anything new that leaks. The certainty of xin & robUK and JohnT may be totally correct. And that's a hard hard hard thing for someone like Chris Mellas (as it would be for any of us) to take about some one they've know for so long in the intimacy of a living household situation. The Kerchers have a big hole in their lives. The Knoxes/Mellases have a swirling, sucking vortex that may get larger or smaller & who knows? and so the anxiety is daily & constant.
Alas, this is not the place to have that anxiety palliated. But to worry over it, work on it, yes, this is a place for that. I would have suggested to Chris M that he do as the woman in the Georgia murder case did, create a once-removed persona and present the alternatives to us, i.e. be Abdar and not cmellas. As the case is in the Italian courts, and not in the US and there's no gag-order against discussing it, "I heard from a friend" stuff is perfectly appropriate here. To which the old regulars (coyotewatch, xin, etc) and the new ones could cogitate on. I'm not trying to just be even handed. I AM trying to consider, always, "well if this then that" or "if That then this." And surely there are things that as the querying persona Abdar COULD present and discuss. The objective being perspective.
Perhaps goofy as Abdar could do this. That would be twice-removed and might be more psychologically comfortable.
And some times, as I've written at length on Halo II and Halo III, Good People get involved in Bad Things out of transitory willfulness, sometimes inadvertently out of bad luck or plain stupidity or an alcohol induced stupor. And sometimes those are people we know and care about. And the outcomes are not good.
CASE in POINT: Tewksbury MA mother of 2, stay-at-home soccer mom for past 5 years is now doing 5 months at Fed Danbury Prison, and will do another 5 months braceleted at home, because Fed DAs prosecuted her on lying to a grand jury in what turned out to be a civil case. I suspect it was a close call to prosecute but they had their ire up because they'd given her immunity in this Big Pharma price-fixing case (which resulted in only a large large fine, no one else ever charged). Won it before a jury and Mom lost all appeals which took 4 years!! So, she's a Federal felon with all that entails (its far far worse than being a state felon--which is why Bush pardoned Libby at Cheney's request) over something her first attorney should have rectified IMMEDIATELY with the DA. She's Officially a Bad Person, but of course she's NOT - she's a Good Person who mispoke. Still she's away for 5 months, under house arrest for 5 more, can't ever vote again, has to check off the felon box on job applications, etc etc.
According to a report Raffaele is being transferred to a different prison. From Perugia to Terni. They make it sound as its just normal. http://translate.google.com/tran...&tbb=1&ie=utf-
8
I have found more details on the post-mortem that I wasn't aware of...Briefly:
Lalli found 0,43 grams/liter alchool in Meredith blood, no drugs of any kind.He has also found a bruise on her face compatible with compression by bare hands, and a cut on the palm of her right hand in the "vain attempt to resist an attack by knife".
http://www.umbriajournal.com/dat...sistem/
home.htm
DLW,
Isn't Terni not too far from Perugia? They're both in Umbria, right? Maybe the facility in Terni is bigger? I was thinking it had to do with being closer to family, but that would not be the case here. Sounds like a routine administrative matter.
Robert M,
Have gotten no further with the joke. Decided to give up.
Daniel,
I honestly don't think the dialogue is as split as you suggest. We do try and mesh, as Robert M says--just look at some of the clashes that result.
When Chris Mellas came here, he had to deal with the usual suspects, as he must surely have known. After all, he had been reading 3 boards before he decided to jump in here. I have reread all the interactive posts with him, and feel that many people were receptive. Kermit and Michael, in particular, managed to establish a positive dialogue. If you look at the early posts, Chris himself agreed (or maybe even suggested) that we should ask questions and he would either answer or decline if case related. The majority took him at his word. Kermit's questions were short and to the point. In addition, his decision to visit got around quickly and attracted other posters. It's a free world.
I spent an entire evening looking at what he had already discussed and putting together questions to which he could answer yes, no or out of bounds. The idea was to allow him to take the time needed to reflect before answering. I didn't want to put him on the spot.
Maybe it turned out to be more difficult or frustrating than he had expected, or maybe whoever he was consulting on some questions was saying no too much of the time.
Sure, there was some hostility, but that's to be expected in an open forum like this one. Everyone faces the same constraints and has the same freedom. I would welcome his return but understand if he chooses not to. I imagine it wasn't an entirely pleasant experience, but how could it have been under the circustances? In fact, based on my limited experience here, he got pretty special treatment. I had never seen Steve Huff intervene before, as he has done in the last three days. I think that's a sign of respect.
Are there things you think should have been done differently?
SB
Terni appears to be about 50 mi south of Perugia. The prison is high security facility where apparently they also send mob figures. Raffaele should have some good company their. I assume they are maximizing limited prison space. I read where they might also relocate Rudy and Amanda. Settling in for the long stay.
Thanks for the reply, DLW. Wow. I hadn't thought of it that way.
I'll see how it goes and think about whether I will engage in the discussion.
I will see on a case by case basis. If chris decides to engage ... that is up to him. Mignini is a bit of a whinner and since family is in Italy, maybe some engagements are better left alone ... if you know what I mean.
nicki:
Re your post about Meredith's blood alcohol count of 0.43 grams/liter (would it be 0.43mg/liter?). Does this mean she consumed some alcohol on the day/night she died? That must be close to two glasses of wine, no?
In France, which has very strict drinking-driving laws, you are allowed a maximum of 0.5mg/ml of alcohol per litre in your blood (compared to 0.8mg/ml in the UK).
What about Italy?
Wasn't it reported that Meredith and her friends did not drink alcohol with their pizza and ice cream?
Abdar,
I'm not sure what you mean by Mignini is a bit of a "whinner" --) winner? whiner? weiner? Do you mean Chris is worried that if he answers our questions he'll get in trouble with Mignini? I'm a bit confused.
Abdar
I used to comment here up until a month ago. I got sick of some of the nasty comments so I stopped. I have kept checking in since many of the commenters get news very quickly from Italy and there are some people who even when I think they are wrong, are civil and open minded. There are certainly many people like myself who think this case has been sensationalized beyond all recognition.
Anything you or Chris care to say would be appreciated by many. I am sure this has been awful for all the families and I do wish Chris's family peace and resolution in the not too distant future.
Sorry Skep...
I meant Whiner....I didn't run my post through word spell check....
Hey Abdar! Glad you're here.
Thanks Sparrow....Maybe I needed my beauty sleep......well...no maybe's.....and it didn't work
Thanks Abdar. I thought you meant whiner but I wanted to be sure.
I'm glad to see that Sparrow and seattlite are in the vicinity, as I was just about to check out for awhile.
Seattlite, I think I started posting about the time you stopped. I saw your name on Haloscan II.
If anyone knows anything about blood alcohol counts and can answer my question, that would be great.
I don't know how to read the foreign numbers but I have never heard that there was any substantial amount in regards to BAC.
Goodnight Skep, if you're going. I'm not able to stick around too long either.
But Abdar, I'm really glad you came back and hope it works out okay. I know that after talking to you, despite the things that I said, I would try to be mindful of your relationship and be a little more careful in discussion with you. I think it can be done without losing critical thinking.
I will stick around and ignore the people who want to be confrontational.
May I ask skep....what is your interest in regards to the BAC?
SB - re: drugs and alcohol. Yes it was reported that no drugs OR alcohol were found in Meredith's body, and her friends confirmed no alcohol was consumed that night. So it's all very confusing once again
SB - re: drugs and alcohol. Yes it was reported that no drugs OR alcohol were found in Meredith's body, and her friends confirmed no alcohol was consumed that night. So it's all very confusing once again
soozie UK | 02.16.08 - 9:53 pm | #
Oh boy. So the little party in the house, that she might have taken part in for awhile before things got nasty...
Abdar,
I was referring to nicki's post above from the Italian press, about new details from the post-mortem:
"Lalli found 0,43 mg/liter alcohol in Meredith's blood, no drugs of any kind. He has also found a bruise on her face compatible with compression by bare hands, and a cut on the palm of her right hand in the "vain attempt to resist an attack by knife."
In earlier press reports, it was stated that Meredith had not consumed any alcohol on the night of Nov 1.
Abdar,
Please don't be "goofy." Just kidding! I'm glad you're willing to come back. Back to your comment about Mignini being a whiner: did you mean he will get upset if Chris says too much?
Sparrow,
Yes, this latest information is interesting.
Also, nicki reports a bruise on the face compatible with compression (squeezing by two hands) and a wound to the right palm (warding off an attack).
I was reading through last night's gruesome discussion about knives and rage and necks. Michael (I believe it was) said that pulling a knife out of the neck is no easy operation. So I was wondering if the hyoid bone could have been broken when the knife was being pulled out and/or possibly after death? Same with the compression bruises on the face...Can these wounds be identified as pre- or post-mortem, in other words?
I've been off since I made my post yesterday that ticked everyone off, and have only read a couple below mine since. Never did I intend to give anyone the impression that Meredith did ANYTHING wrong, or that she ASKED for this. On the last haloscan somebody, I don't remember who, and am not giong to dig back and find it, made a statement about Guede after the medical report was released that they didn't "think" she would willingly have sex with him. I'm just wondering how anyone "knows" what her sexual history was, and when someone is accused of raping her, when the evidence says she wasn't, then yes, I find it relavent. I know it's a slim chance, but what if Guede were telling the truth?
First I want to say that normally if I say I cannot comment on something, it is because my knowledge may be different than yours.
Now, your questions....I am not aware of the BAC content and I have never heard about a cut on anyones hands. The other question I cannot comment on.
I just checked nicki's link to the Umbria journal and found the article. Indeed, if my Italian to French translation is correct, the BAC was 0.43 grams/liter of blood, the compression bruise on the face is compatible with ONE hand, and there is a supeficial wound on the right palm compatible with an attempt to ward off a blow.
Ok how can I say this without getting everyone in an uproar.....
When spezi and preston said too much about the MOF case, they were arrested and brought up on charges.
If people with "inside" knowledge were to say too much and travel to Italy or already be in Italy, they could be brought up on charges....
You will have to read between the lines on that...
Addar
Would it be fair to say that the various "alibi" "inconsistencies" between Amanda and RS are press driven and leak driven rather than "actual" discrepancies, as far as you know.
If this is a bumbly question, please ignore.
I know it's a slim chance, but what if Guede were telling the truth?
anotheranon | 02.16.08 - 10:08 pm |
I'm one of those who still keeps this as a possibility, but I don't mention it much. Some people have a certain image of Rudy that they can't match with Meredith. I don't think this has anything to do with morals though. And I think people get upset when that word is used. I don't use it. I think it's very possible that some women that age were attracted to Rudy either as a sex partner, or friend. He's not a beast. His Spanish friends were women, I think.
Abdar,
I have no problem with your explanation. I think it applies to more than just what happened to Spezi and Preston, though. It seems like a reasonable thing to ask whenever an investigation is being conducted.
Sparrow and anotheranon,
I see no reason why Rudy should be treated as more or less trustworthy than anyone else. I don't see him as a bum or a drifter, as he has been portrayed. I think there's a slight tendency to stereotype in his case.
All three suspects have written diaries, and these diaries have been published. In the case of RS and AK, the diaries were ultimately released for publication by their defense teams. I'm not sure how Rudy's came to be published.
My gut feeling is that a true or mostly true story can be patched together from what has been stated and written by all. There would be some elements missing.
He means, I think that Mignini is thin-skinned, and that with its international notoriety, and after all we do have several posters from Italy and who knows how many readers [Steve could look it up but identify?], someone might "report" to the PM a true but misunderstood or completely misrepresented version of something said here attributed to Chris M. Which HAS happened here but the drop-a-dime was to the defense team AFTER the verdict (that Georgia case) and they did get their noses out of joint briefly. Its possible that such a report would do the same to the PM's prominent proboscis and while it would have no official role, all that kind of stuff "motivates" DAs if so inclined. And Mignini certainly sounds like someone so inclined. Actually he sounds like someone LOOKING for such inclination.
Which is one reason I suggested that Abdar come back.
Yet everyone is leaking like seive over there, the police and the ME and the lawyers (well until recently & Rudy's team has always been quiet). Judges here impose "gag orders' (everybody shut up) only AFTER charges are filed.
Also re prison switches, people not yet charged in the US are nearly 90% held in local/town or county JAILS as opposed to regular prisons because (1) considered not guilty and (2) must be able to meet regularly with lawyers. (Though of course this NOT always case, especially in Virginia or so I've read on law blogs there.) Moving a person 50 miles away from where the trial would be held would be very very exceptional in the States.
Skep: I see no reason why Rudy should be treated as more or less trustworthy than anyone else...
Since Rudy by his own admission left a mortally wounded woman to die, I find him less trustworthy.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.16.08 - 10:23 pm | #
Totally agree. When he said her told her that joke, "Would you like to suck my blood, because you lost your cup (soccer reference)," I know if I were her age, at a party, that would have made me laugh. Well, I would laugh now, actually. But some comments characterized his joke as weird or creepy.
seattleite,
As far as I know, her story before she was interogated and after she was interogated is her story. This is what her mother confirmed on 20/20 and is what I have known and believed since early November.
Since Rudy by his own admission left a mortally wounded woman to die, I find him less trustworthy.
seattleite | 02.16.08 - 10:27 pm | #
Less trustworthy than someone who left someone to die, but lied about it?
Seattlite, I'm not hostile, my point is these are not absolutes (except for Rudy's admission) so the comparison may be clear to you, but not to others.
seattlite,
Well, he admitted he left her to die, which means that he is a coward but not necessarily a liar.
We don't know all that much about Rudy, actually, except that he left his DNA and fingerprints in the victim's room and his feces in the toilet. He may or may not have taken the cellphones (no confirmation yet about the partial print), may or may not have taken the money, and may or may not have taken credit cards. We know that he went to the disco after leaving the cottage.
Wonder of Wonders! I've found my way back here!
I had given up reaching the current page of this blog ever again.
After innumerable attempts over many days, I had given up. But,last night, I decided to try again and found, to my shock, that I was able to load this page... effortlessly!
I subsequently read (ok, actually, I scanned) the 4,457,098,987 posts here that I missed in my absence, and am now a very
Tired, but Up-to-date Traduco.
P.S. FYI, that odd-sounding Italian barrel phrase "fare a scaricabarile" is the Italian for "passing the buck"~ but I think Nicki gave an equally good translation, a few thousand posts ago.
I've supported Pinecone on this point, and also coyotewaits who has gone into chapter & verse on what I call Chicago style interrogration. The 5:22 am so-called "confession" would get tossed by a presiding US judge in the evidentiary hearing after charges were filed due to the lack of documentation, translation issues, etc. Whether the PM can keep it in after charges are filed in Italy depends on Italy's jurisprudence on these matters. An American DA would certainly be arguing to keep it. But these types of "poisoned fruit" results almost always get tossed in the US.
Precisely what AK said can never be accurately determined, and as coyote has evidenced, police get false "confessions" all the time. So in that sense, yes, I agree that AK's testimony has been consistent int he broadest sense.
Now let's see who else has been typing!!
Sparrow:
It was sunny here today and nearly 50. I have no hostility either.
Traduco: Welcome, I think you missed one.
Traduco, when the page is loading, sometimes I see an old post of yours, and I wonder, "What happened to that guy?"
Il tuo problema con il computer sembra impossibile.
seattleite | 02.16.08 - 10:39 pm |
Thanks Seattlite.
Traduco welcome back. To find out what you really really missed you are STILL going to have get back tothe last 200 posts at Halo III. You came in on Halo III. We are now on Halo IV. I think the grand grand total is now over 6000 posts.
Robert M. | 02.16.08 - 10:38 pm | #
Robert M., I think Frank at Perugia Shock has said once or twice in the comments sections of his articles that the false confession will not be admissible.
I fear Traduco lost his Halo page.
Sparrow
Not to put too fine a point on it. But I believe it was reported that Amanda said she did not ever make a confession. Knowing how any prosecutor frames things and until there is some evidence otherwise I accept that.
Seattlite, isn't the Lumumba story written in her own hand?
the ME's report : while Mignini might very well have "fired" Lalli from the case because the ME did not provide documentation to support the PM's "theory", I would have fired him because, though working with a very very recent crime scene, he still can't narrow time of death down to a REASONABLE amount of time. I believe we are still looking at 10 pm to 4 am??????? Please correct me if this has changed.
And please note that an early report, mentioned above, has Meredith talking with her mother at 2130 or 9:30 pm, just a half hour BEFORE the earliest time-point for her death. Really, not enough time for the the chaos to develop.
And if indeed Meredith did talk to her mother, what did she say? That's never been leaked at all. And we know that could provide context. As its not been reported [for instance, "Oh, Amanda's back with a stranger in her room. She's such a slut" is somehting you'd expect to be reported], then there was no situational context. Meredith said nothing to her mother about any other people inthe house. OR the ILE would have leaked it. It'd be too important to them not to!
But Lalli's report, and now with the alcohol in it, would be a problem for ANY DA. However, an American DA couldn't fire him. They all work in separate administrative units! Different bosses.
That is not a confession.
Robert M
Don't say, great to see you back seattleite. And after all the hours we have spent together.
Robert M,
Frank reports on perugia shock that Lalli was fired because of the leaks in the days leading up to the release of his report. One such leak was over the phone and was played on television.
I do wonder about what is leaked and not leaked, though. Tacopina talked about the requirements for holding a suspect without charges being really low, leading to a minimum amount of information being leaked/provided until the preliminary investigation is over. Do you think that only the big stuff has been leaked?
Abdar,
Back to seattlite's question. I had understood it to be about the discrepancies between AK and RS's alibis: are they real or press inventions? Something like that.
re AK "confession"
sparrow & seattleite --> I think its ALL oral. What was written was either b y the translator or more likley the second cop going by what the translator said.
The question, whether its admissable or not and Mignini will argue hard to keep it in, is whether she (1) signed it after being re-read it so that (2) she knew what she was signing.
In a recent Alaska case, even though the cop videotaped 3 hours of interrogration of a 15 year old and it was initially admitted as evidence, on reconsideration the judge tossed it because (1) there was a break and the father as guardian never reconsented to the interview, and (2) in the second part the judge felt the cop was much too leading in his "questions". [But he was very good indeed.] And (3) he never asked her to sign anything.
In such a case as this, I was shocked to learn they did not video tape the interrogation.
Ah, seattleite. Shucks, and I just dun got quotin' somethin' just above you reported the bf attorney had said way back on Halo II. Like as if you were never out of my thoughts!
That is not a confession.
seattleite | 02.16.08 - 10:55 pm |
Actually I called it a FALSE confession. I don't know if you missed that word.
Theory comes to mind when you guys talk confessions
Confession: There is the "confession" of November 6th (1:45 am?) and then a written statement that AK wrote voluntarily for the police a few days later, in which she says she's not sure about anything she has said so far. That statement was written in English.
This issue came up yesterday or the day before on the prior thread, with Kermit wondering what time AK and RS were taken in for questioning on Nov 5th. We were trying to figure out how much time elapsed between the beginning of questioning and the 1:45 statement, since it has been said that AK was questioned for 14 hours with no food, no break and no interpreter.
It was reported on cnn on Feb 1 that the police now say an interpreter was present throughout.
Funny how an interpreter was present but no attorney was.....
Good night everyone.
Dinner calls!
Sparrow,
Perhaps I have a mindset cause I deal with lawyers everyday to check and recheck like a zillion times. If Amanda says she never made a confession then I look back at the document to see where the error is...I don;t have the document. There is a reason she said she didn't give a confession and it is in the full text of that document and the way it was taken.
This isn't niggling. It is key to the truth of what was said and how it was said.
Adbar: There is a scenario on these comments called the Pinecone Theory which theorizes that the snap police/prosecutor theory is wrong and all facts are being forced into that...making a mess.
Theory comes to mind when you guys talk confessions
Abdar | 02.16.08 - 11:04 pm |
What do you mean?
Funny how an interpreter was present but no attorney was.....
Abdar | 02.16.08 - 11:06 pm | #
More like stupid.
Good night everyone.
Dinner calls!
Skeptical Bystander | 02.16.08 - 11:09 pm | #
I wish I could join you. I bet you cook very well, although I don't know how you find the time. Going to dig in my fridge right now.
As I remember [Halo I], the so-called confession was around 5:22 am. AK had been questioned from at least 11:30, if not in small chunks of time for several hours beforehad. The 14 hours MAY refer to the elapsed time between arrest and the 5:22 am "statement"--the one that AK later referred to as making them all jump with very excited.
Whether she got bathroom breaks or not, as coyotewaits described in detail, this kind of relentless questioning, conducted in waves with partners shifting and clearly slowed down by the presence of a translator, is Standard Operating Procedure for police forces. Chicago-Style. See Halo III search for coyotewaits.
Now what Sen. Obama as a state senator got passed was Illionis' everything-must-be taped law--and he did it with unanimous backing of all the interested parties. Only about 14 OTHER US states have adopted a mandatory requirement to videotape all formal interrogations. Other states have simply highly recommended it. Alaska uses it where the equipment is available.
Actually, while you, Abdar are surprised it wasn't used, in fact I'd have been surprised if it WAS. Because that meant someone on the Perugia LE had glommed onto the fact this was not going to be the usual thing, not with an American invovled. And someone must have had an inkling as they quickly ordered the cellphone wiretaps. And, yes, AK should have been told she had the right to contact the US Embassy first, but again that's not a requirement but rather something the State Department has always said is the responsbility of the effected American individual.
And if they had videotaped the interrogration, Mignini would stand a greater chance of getting the whole thing admitted as evidence! Shot themselves in the foot on that one in several ways.
Sparrow,
I can't elaborate anymore on that...
sorry.
Abdar re again lawyer present.
Not required under any jurisdiction that I'm aware of. One has a "duty", yes here too, to cooperate with the police in their public safety investigation. One can get charged with obstructing that investigation if not cooperative. Getting booked on that is one way for the cops to keep you around where they can see you if they are looking for concrete evidence elsewhere.
When someone in the US ASKS for a lawyer, all direct interrogation must cease. (In fact, the NYPD has just announced that the NYC shrink-killer has been arrested and after 20 minutes he asked for a lawyer and so everything stopped. Not 14 hours, 20 minutes.) Whether or not AK was informed that under the EU Charter of Rights she did indeed have the right to remain silent is an UNKNOWN. I think we are at a "they say yes/she says no" and again no videotape impasse. And who knows how the translator phrased it to her and AK has demonstrated a general tendency to please people in authority, so saying OK ask is somehting I would have expected her to do. (She herself should have asked for a lawyer, but I know that at my age, but if was her age...) As seattleite remarks, where's the signed document as I also mentioned? If none, then there is NO CONFESSION.
What does happen here is that because this "confession" was heavily publicized by the ILE--leaked in part only--as well as the follow-up written statement that SB refers to, we here use it in discussion. Unlike an American jury, we can't be told to ignore it in our deliberations, because we are just discussing, not deliberating. Pinecone's overall point [other than that Rudy did it all] is that each leak must be conscientiously scrutinized and used with caution.
And, seattleite, glad to see you are pitching in on the judicial caution side of things again, and not just being a reader. [OK? OK? You can have all my leftover Disqus points, OK?]
It would be ironic if the interrogation is thrown out of court, after Knox's quotes from it have been so widely reported and unhelpful to her.
Skeptical and Robert M
What I had talked about before regarding Mr. Mellas seems too far back in the thread to go into again, but your replies made sense.
Oh, daniel, we'll get back to those posts. Abdar will just have translate any responses as he sees fit.
Abdar | 02.16.08 - 11:33 pm | #
I was just adding a comment, but now I realize what's going on. Abdar, really, you're among friends and it's kind of slow now, as am I, but I hope you come back often and stick to your guns, stay silent when you need to, say what you want according to your rules and don't pay too much attention when people don't understand. I guess you're doing that. I'm just adding the encouragement whether it's needed or not, as I'll be out of here soon.
Adbar
This may be too personal and if so ignore, but can Chris, the business life, family life go on with a modicum of normalcy. Obviously its not normal with family members jetting back and forth, I guess I am asking if you all get hassled alot or can you carry on in a fairly regular way.
I don't want to pry but if we were at Safeco and got talking I might ask you that.
thanks sparrow....I have figured out what's going on here....its a mixed bag.
Abdar, like I said, I'm slow. I thought you were talking about another post. Now I got it. Geez. I have a prolonged jet-lag and should probably not be communicating with anyone. Ciao.
Seattleite,
I tried to answer your question for the past several minutes. I just don't know how to tactfully out of respect for Chris.
Robert M
We had a discussion back in Halo 1 that when it was reported that Amanda was keeping a diary I believe I said: didn't her lawyer tell her not to do that? What are these diaries? Is there some sort of quasi-legal thing I am missing. Are these attorney-client privileged? Were they asked to write these?
Adbar
Thanks. I appreciate your tolerance.
I didn't mean to pry but seriously, that's what I would ask if I met him at the ball game. Barbara Walters I am not.
Seattleite,
Not a problem. I guess when you think that they were just a normal family and now have a PR firm helping them says allot.
Robert M:
Timeline:
Meredith home: 21:00
Talk with mum: 21:30
Call from M's cell to bank: 22:15 (We don't know if this was her calling, right?)
I'm thinking about this in terms of blood alcohol reading of 0.43. That would be 2 drinks. She did not have alcohol with her friends.
I don't know where this leads, but it could be interesting.
Abdar,
I imagine that their lives are totally disrupted, that they are all sleep-deprived, that they are feeling the weight of separation, and that this is a nightmare. It must be horrible. It's great that Chris has your support right now.
Abdar
Says it all. Media, internet, instant but frequently bad information...I had some experience with the press in a very good situation and I hated it.
Skep,
It doesn't say the 1/2 of it.
Seattleite re the diaries. What we lack is a societal context as all 3 kept something and yet all 3 were confiscated after several days several weeks by prison authorities and turned over to the ILE. That they were promptly leaked is a step beyond what would happen here. You can keep a diary in a US prison but it can be inspected and confiscated if it provides evidence of planning to hurt yourself, others or create a prison disturbance. And used against you in every prison's point system [Kansas calls one general type of infraction Violation of Published Orders and there are literally over hundred plus of those. Get enough of those no matter severity and you are in solo 23-1 durance for awhile & it really hurts at parole time. It is all about control on the inside to sustain the police/community safety position.]
It seems that the Trio's lawyers encouraged them to do so rather than just write letters and mailing them directly. A dumb idea period. But even then, given ILE's ability, nay legally able to do so, taping of AK's conversations with her PARENTS, they most likely can open ANY mail. Both opening outgoing mail and taping visitors without their knowledge is ILLEGAL, as far as I know, in the states.
So it seems to be a cultural thing riding on the sidebar handles of the EU Charter of Rights. Stuff that needs to be adjudicated up to the Hague level, just as a lot has gone up to SCOTUS, and is established case law.
Robert M
Have you become the king of google!? That is why I asked the question. Is this some sort of expected procedure. Seemed odd the lawyers were agreeable to it. Perhaps it can't be used against them but it can be used to support their release? Pure guess but that is what I am thinking.
FWIW, Tonight MSNBC rebroadcast an old "DATELINE" entitled "Murder on Lovers' Lane" about the "Mostro di Firenze" case. Featured Douglas Preston, Mario Spezi and some other familiar characters.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19333195/
---------------------------------
Sparrow wrote:
"Il tuo problema con il computer sembra impossibile."
Sparrow: Ahhhhh, si`...
Whatever Steve did to this blog the other day seemed to make a radical difference. I'll check back here in the next day or so, to make sure that this wasn't simply a 24-hour-long aberration or perhaps a hallucination on my part.
Meanwhile...
Buona Domenica a tutti!
Tired Trailing Traduco
SB thanks for reminding me. i had wanted to get back to The Musrooms and the Wine and The Cheese.
Timeline:
Meredith home: 21:00
[Rudy has stated it was 20:30 or 8:30 but Meredith's friends are all consistent on time she left and she was partially walked home.]
Talk with mum: 21:30
[Now I want to be careful on this. I only saw it once and its just been referred to again above. I'm assuming its true. Still content must have been innocuous, i.e. nothing involving the Trio, as NOTHING about the call has been leaked. The OTHER thing we don't k now is HOW LONG MEREDITH WAS ON THE LINE WITH MOM.]
Raid the Fridge: 21:50 or so
[So I'm saying she was online about 20 minutes. Meredith then ate some mushrooms and mozzarella cheese. At this point, she must have had one glass of wine, perhaps a single very large one as opposed to an initial glass and then a refill. I suspect she had the wine first, even when talking to her mother, and then went back for the mushrooms. Lalli has been consistent on this point that the food was not much digested and that one mushroom got regurgitated into her esophagus during her death. That she had the food doesn't mean that she was interacting with anyone; just that she hit the fridge the same as I did tonight [Alpine Lace wrapped around sliced pieces of some seasoned turkey]. What Lalli hasn't said, and this goes back to his inability to really narrow her death window down, is how far along this last meal was to being processed in her stomach. Such things are KNOWN and Lalli can't figure it out? That at least one mushroom was not much decomposed so as to be readily identifiable as being in her esophagus STRONGLY SUGGESTS that much time had lapsed, so say 10:30 to 1:30. [Why Lalli can't say even this is beyond me and I'm just an historian.]
Call from M's cell to bank: 22:15
(We don't know if this was her calling, right? --> Well, we don't. How could we if ILE has no idea? I'm not even sure if we know that the call went through, i.e. how long it was. The bank certainly has told the ILE what it was for from their end of things as such records can be traced, as in "ATM check". But let's assume it was her, because as above I have Meredith getting to the food at 21:50, so as she finishes her late snack she decides to check her bank balance.)
22:17: And then WHAT?
Robert M
Geez. I hadn't thought of the call except in connection with a nefarious motive. It could have been innocent?
Gotto go. Robert M good to see you (sort of see you)
Best to all and thanks to Adbar.
Kermit: thanks for the powerpoints. They are amazing.
http://www.educalcool.qc.ca/en/e...nner/
index.html
Blood alcohol calculator.
Robert M:
22:17
And what time did eyewitness get nearly knocked over by the black man? No time tonight to check Kermit's timeline....
First item on to do list tomorrow.
Hi all,
What if the mobile call related to Meredith checking if anyone had accessed her bank account somehow if she had left her bank card hidden with her money in the draw.... and having found that both were missing?
That would make perfect sense and something I would do if I found that my wallet was missing?
If this is the case then I also think that at 10.17 confrontation and accusations happened?!?
Then from 10.20... what happened?
Fits in with Guede running out at 10.30, fully clothed and in a hurry!!
Rise and shine!
Welcome back Seattleite, Abdar and Traduco!
Skeptical Bystander | 02.17.08 - 2:28 am |"And what time did eyewitness get nearly knocked over by the black man?"
That's not "my" timeline, but rather "our" timeline (the one Xin was maintaining) with a couple of new items (Polish student ...). I stopped it on purpose, due to lack of time, with the victim's return to the cottage, plus noting TOD (as it stood in early January).
My intention was to do an "inhouse" timeline, but there was, and there still is little information (we have it all in the prior posts: possible call to mom, snack and wine, attack and new TOD).
I was going to do a post crime ppt too (first item: Rudy running out of house at 22:30 h.; second item: Rudy bumping into Alessandra F. a minute later. With a mention that in one of his versions - all?? - the "real" killers ran out of the house moments before he did). But again, no time.
I posted without refreshing. Love Wolf's items fit in fine with an "inhouse" timeline.
Hi Kermit,
Also if that is close to the actual timeline, then the DNA of Guede on the handbag would suggest retrieval of the mobiles before running off, not with him taking of the money out of the bag.
I do not think the motive of this crime was robbery nor was it rape/sexual...... But I think that the robbery was the catalyst for the events that followed.....
I would also be very interested to know what finger prints are is on the money that Amanda had in her possession..... not only fingers prints but any other substances....
LIES: Amanda told, and which she has not denied telling, she admitted to these lies. They are not the only lies
she has told, the other two, have their own registered brands of lying.
1/ LIE: claimed: She (Amanda) left cottage at 5pm last Thursday
2/ LIE: claimed: She returned only next morning when body Ms Kercher discovered
3/ LIE: changed story: claimed: She (Amanda) admitted had been at cottage Thursday evening.
4/ LIE: claimed: I'm very frightened of Patrick,
5/ LIE: claimed: She met Mr Lumumba evening of November 1
6/ LIE: claimed: She went back to her house.
7/ LIE: claimed: I don't remember if my friend Meredith was already there or whether she came later.
8/ LIE: claimed: What I can say is that the two of them (Meredith and Patrick) went off together.
9/ LIE: claimed: I can't remember how long they were in the bedroom together,
10/ LIE: claimed: I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming
11/ LIE: claimed: (she heard Meredith screaming) and I was so frightened
12/ LIE: claimed: I put my fingers in my ears.
13/ LIE: claimed: I don't remember anything after that,
14/ LIE: claimed: My head is really confused."
15/ LIE: claimed: She (Amanda) had lot to drink and had fallen asleep
16/ Lie: claimed: I'm not sure whether Raffaele was there too that evening but
17/ LIE: claimed: I do remember waking up at his house in his bed
18/ LIE: claimed: In the morning I went back to where I lived,
19/ LIE: claimed: I found the door open
20/ LIE: claimed: She (Amanda) said that he (Lumumba) had desired Meredith.
21/ LIE: claimed: He (Lumumba) had wanted to go to bed with her (Meredith)
22/ LIE: claimed: She had helped him to meet Meredith.
23/ LIE: claimed: Amanda said arranged to meet Lumumba at nearby basketball court about 8:30 p.m night of murder
24/ LIE: claimed: together they walked the short distance to the rental house
25/ LIE: claimed: Amanda and Patrick walked to the house to await Meredith's return from her night of pizza and a movie.
Post above about lying by me.
Michael.
Even if a person goes berserk and is real angry, if one consideres there is a first time for murder, I reckon the sdoing of the stabbing and then the immediate result, could be pretty shocking to the one that does the stabbing no matter how angry they were and still may be.
If Amanda did that stabbing, having never done it before, I think or can imagine her release of anger and its result would have been sufficient for her, as to discontinue. It's like the killing was a statement, it was about control, something about misplaced assertion, like some people who cannot talk well, resort to violence, when they can't get their way or points across.
Anon
If you replace Partick's name with that of Guede she was probably telling the truth from 20-25
As with Guede story and lies there is imbedded truths in much of it.... hinting at real events that night and the hours leading up to the tragic murder of Meredith.
I am also beginning the think that when Guede ran out of the apartment that he thought that the involvement of AK and possibly RS in the evening that he knew and was confident enough that they could not tell on him and would have to do the cleaning and cover up.... hence the code of silence....
Suppose AK meets RG, they go to AKs place, MK returns and things get out of hand. With MK dead or dying RG runs, leaving AK to deal with the aftermath. If you invite a guest to your place and the guest ends up killing your housemate, I dont see how you can be liable in any way. AK would be scared, but the moment RG was out of there the thing to do would be to yell help big time. That didnt happen, why not? She gets RS involved (Im assuming that prior to this he was not involved), telling him RG killed MK but would implicate her or whatever and they go into a bleach frenzy to get AK out of there, also creating as many false leads as they can think of while making no attempt to remove evidence of RGs presence. AK going on about the shit in the toilet in succeeding days would be part of this, also the citing of HER male acquaintances as being MKs which I think Kermit mentioned yesterday (apologies if it was someone else), possibly get some tissues from the bins nearby and place them at the scene to get some random DNA in the mix, and all the rest, culminating in implicating Patrick Lumumba as an act of desperation when LE was getting too close. Desperate times call for desperate measures. In other words seek to create as many avenues for investigation as possible and involve as many people as possible to throw LE off the scent. The problem with radiating so much noise and chatter, is that AK can now be identified as being at the centre of it all, it all seems to lead back to her.
If RG had wielded the knife and left it at the scene, that is where it would have been found on the basis of the selective alteration/non-alteration of the scene. Why remove it?
The presumed murder weapon found at RSs place: RS would have assumed traces of RG would be all over it because AK had told him RG killed MK.therefore the only reason it was not left at the scene (at least in terms of AKs story to RS, but maybe AK knew more than she was telling) was because it didnt belong there but at RSs, it had to be cleaned and put back as it would potentially draw attention to both of them.
Even after bleaching, traces of two people remain on the knife, and RG isnt one of them.
Good posting Nowo and also Anon (John T)
Nowo you hit a chord....
What if RS was not involved at all until the clean up in the belief that his Girlfriend of 2 weeks told him that it was not her fault and it was Guede but she was there and will get into lots of trouble if he does not help her?
He does appear to be a Daddy's boy and not world wise... you notice that not one friend has come to his defense to say what a 'great guy' he is and how it all is 180% from who he is (sorry to pinch that quote from the Knox camp). He I think is a loner and gullible enough to have fallen for it...... until he realised that he was also up to his neck in the fallout of sh*t created by the other 2.
That is why he changed the alibi to say that AK was not with him between 9pm and 1am, he knows the murder was committed at the time and whilst AK was not with him... he will I am sure not change his alibi, he has not got anything to gain but EVERYTHING to lose.
His DNA on the bra was a result of the framing, covering up and creating a smokescreen regarding what really happened.
I would be so much happier if RS would just come out hold his hands up and say what his role is...... Later he may not be able to do this.....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3385165.ece
have you guys heard? They are moving all 3 suspect to different high secruity prisons.
1. The report of Meredith having phoned her mother comes from La Reppublica, on 7th November, as is thus more reliable than if it came from elsewhere http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...rdo-
amanda.html
I translate: "The clarified circumstances state [imply] that the last person to hear Merediths voice before she encoutered the murderer(s) was her mother in England. MK phoned her at 21.30 on 1 November. She was at home, or at least she said that she was, where she had returned after dining with Sophie Purton... Most probably (the circumstance has not been verified) Meredith was alone at that moment. And only after some time was she joined by AK, RS and PL..."
If this is correct, RGs stated arrival at 8.38 is a lie; and the cctv footage showing AK arriving at 8.45 is also wrong (which seems to be the case for other reasons).
If MK phoned her mother from the house, she is unlikely to have put the phone back in her handbag. Would she not have put it on a table, or next to her bed or somwhere like that?
3. As to the call made to the bank at 10.15, it would not surprise me if that was caused by someone pressing an automatic-dial button by mistake when trying to switch off her phone.
3. Why did MK have Filomenas phone? There is a very interesting snippet in the first magistrates report. I quote the Daily Telegraphs unhandy but on the whole accurate translation:
"In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment. In the course of the search it was ascertained that the door of the room which was used by Meredith Kercher, the other girl living in the apartment, was closed and locked and it was decided therefore to break down the door because Romanelli said it was strange that her friend Kercher could have both her telephones switched off, having lately used also the phone with the sim card stated [of Romanelli], and that the door should be closed. With the door opened there was a chilling scene in so far as the room was found in disorder with blood stains everywhere, on the ground and on the walls, and also under the duvet of the bed a foot could be seen. The agents, in order to avoid any pollution of the crime scene, stopped everyone from entering the room."
It was Romanellis phone, found in Sra Lanas garden, that had led the postal police to the house in the first place. What on earth does the fact that that this phone had recently been used imply?? This is a big mystery if its true. Filomena is an important witness here.
4. The last sentence of the Telegraph piece is interesting. If the postal police stopped everyone from entering the room, AK could not have seen the body. The police may be covering themselves here, as I it would be most unlikely that no-one would have entered, if only to ascertain that whether the owner of the foot was dead or merely unconscious. But it is likely that one policeman would have done that, while the other stood guard. In any case, the testimony of the policemen, and of Filomena, who certainly seems to have been there when the door was broken down, is going to be crucial when assessing what AK could or could not have seen at that moment. The ILE clearly know that; thus their interrogation of people as to what Knox said the day after.
NB: the most important bits of evidence that we have all emerged during the first week, and then with the arrest of RG. Only by sifting these, in conjunction with reports of what the police are up to thereafter, can it be seen where the case is going. There is clearly going to be no more leaking until the official hearing on 1st April. There seems, in any case, more than enough evidence from early on to continue holding the suspects, and the ILE are not going to give anything away to defence lawyers until they are in a position to make formal charges.
Minotaur,
I think that the holding of 3 now in separate places means that they are not going anywhere after 1st April (i.e. released) they are in for the long haul until the court case.
It may be a message from the prosecution to say if you want to get out start telling something that resembles the truth..... likely to be hinted at RS who personally I think is guilty but not to the same level (of involvement) as the the other 2
Skep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Blo...alcohol_content
Blood content is .05 in Italy
Mushroom: There are two ways that the tiny portion of mushroom could have entered MK's oesophagus. Either it came up from her stomach; or it was on the point of the knife.
Time of death: If MK did phone her mother at 21.30 and if RG was seen running away at 22.30, that narrows the t.o.d, or at least the time of the assault, to one hour. The time of the (possibly accidental) call to the bank is also relevant.
Lalli: The most significant thing that Lalli leaked is that the cause of death was a combination of bleeding and asphyxia. The asphyxia implies that the oesophagus was indeed penetrated. It also means that the death could have been far more rapid than was described earlier: it takes ten minutes to drown in one's own blood, as opposed to an hour to bleed to death from a minor severed artery.
Lalli has been sacked for releasing, before time, a vital piece of evidence that helps establish the time of death. The suspects can now adjust their stories once again before they are charged. No wonder Mignini is cross!
Minotaur | 02.17.08 - 9:24 am |
Thanks for that review of early news items concerning the phones. There is so much information from early reporting that we either have forgotten or that we didn't think was important (or which we thought was important and now realise is just rumour), or we didn't know where to access it.
The Italian newspapers have many little details that I'm just now starting to go through. Case in point:
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/artic..._INITALIA&
npl=N
On the 3rd and 4th of November, Amanda exchanges 5 mobile phone short messages with "S.G.", a 26 year old foreign student in whom she had confided her feelings for Raffaele. S.G. told police he had last seen Amanda on Halloween night at 1.45 h on the steps of the cathedral. They (RS and AK) had an appointment with someone who they didn't name, to go watch a horror movie ((Kermit here: didn't I say a long time ago it rang a bell that in the hours or days before the crime I thought I had read AK and/or RS and/or RGH went to see some specific horror movie?)).
There was no further contact until Nov. 3 at 9.57 h. (the day after "discovery" by the Postal Police) ((English-to-Italian-to-English)) :
AK (9.57 h., Nov.3) : "My housemate was killed the night before last. I was the first to go home and call the police."
SG (11.28 h., Nov.3) : "I know. I saw the latest news. I wanted to call you ... is really shocking ... if you need a hug tell me so, sweety ((Kermit: careful ... English-Italian-English)), ok? ".
AK (11.30 h., Nov.3) : "Maybe later, thanks. Today I still have to speak a while with the police.
SG (18.19 h., Nov.4) : "What are you doing sweetie ((careful, double translation))?. I hope you are well, if you need anything call me. I am in the bar where you don't like having coffee."
AK (18:19 h., Nov.4) : "With the police in my house. I am very tired."
9.57...
My housemate was killed the night before last. I was the first to go home and call the police."
Another lie to add to the list John T / Michael...
Thanks for legal limit info for Italy. Same as in France. Pinecone's link to edu-alcool is interesting for calculating BA. Absorption of alcohol depends on height and weight, hence gender, food intake, rapidity of consumption, etc. I calculated mine for last night. I had two glasses of wine over a period of two hours, ending at 10 pm, and ate a leisurely dinner between 8:30 and 10:00. My reading came out at 0.59, which would have allowed me to drive in Seattle but not in Italy or France!
Re Minotaur:
"If MK phoned her mother from the house, she is unlikely to have put the phone back in her handbag. Would she not have put it on a table, or next to her bed or somwhere like that?
3. As to the call made to the bank at 10.15, it would not surprise me if that was caused by someone pressing an automatic-dial button by mistake when trying to switch off her phone."
I've been thinking about point 3 as well. It could very well be someone accidentally speed-dialing a number when trying to turn off the phone.
As for the likelihood of putting the cellphone back in her purse, I waver on that only because some people always put their vital items in one and the same place so as not to lose them. For example, I know people who always put their cellphones in their purse when not in use. Other people, like my husband, have to routinely call their cell from a landline in the house in order to locate it.
re the call to MK's bank. I've read that it lasted 15 seconds. That is too short a time to get into one's account, no? I'm leaning towards a misdial, too.
re nowo-- if AK was in the kitchen plugging her ears while RG was doing the deed to MK, and assuming the frenzy of post-massacre alibi discussion, when would RG have time to have a leisurely dump prior to running out the door and into a passer-by?
Lv2rgu | 02.17.08 - 1:03 pm |
Remember that in the photo I didn't include in the updated houseplan, there's RHG's evidence, in technicolour glory (thankfully the resolution is poor enough you can't make it out), with ample amounts of toilet paper. In other words, he had time to use the toilet at leisure and finish the associated paperwork. No getting scared part way through and having to run out with his pants around his ankles.
-
Exactly my point!
Lv2rgu | 02.17.08 - 1:03 pm |
Remember that there's a photo that I didn't include in the updated houseplan powerpoint, precisely of RHG' toilet evidence. In any case, it is thankfully low resolution. Of more interest than the evidence itself, is the fact that there are ample amounts of toilet paper in the toilet ... in other words, he had time to leave the evidence in leisure, and do all of the associated paperwork. I don't think he got scared halfway through for any reason, and had to leave with his pants around his ankles.
-
'ample amount of toilet paper'? Perhaps the dump was 'brisk'. Stop now!
From Minotaur:
"NB: the most important bits of evidence that we have all emerged during the first week, and then with the arrest of RG. Only by sifting these, in conjunction with reports of what the police are up to thereafter, can it be seen where the case is going. There is clearly going to be no more leaking until the official hearing on 1st April. There seems, in any case, more than enough evidence from early on to continue holding the suspects, and the ILE are not going to give anything away to defence lawyers until they are in a position to make formal charges."
This makes a whole lot of sense to me.
John T -
In regard to your timeline of lies/changed accounts...here are some additions (plus questions about them):
1. In certain account/s Amanda says she had a shower at the student house the morning after the murder (if so, 'which' shower?). Why did she require a shower that morning when she states later to police that she had a shower at RS's on the night of the murder? Especially as she also states remembering RS 'cleaning her ears' that night...clearly if true, she had a most thorough scrubbing. On planning this uneeded shower, why did she not abandon this plan...instead taking the shower in a house when it was clear something serious had happened and she was very frightened?
In certain account/s Amanda states she was frightened by what she saw at the house and went almost straight back outside not going back in (without having the shower).
Only one of the above can be true...making the other statement 'untrue' (a lie). I would like to know which is true. This is important...as someone 'did' have a shower at that house 'after' the murder...but the question I have is was taken in the morning after the murder....or on the night/early hours of the morning of the murder.
Both AK and RS (I believe both) claimed to have woke/got up a little after 10 am the morning after the murder. Bleach receipts show at least on of them got up earlier then this. Moreover, computer activity on RS's computer just after 5 am that same morning shows someone got up earlier still....'or' went to bed 'much' later then RS's stated 2 am...'or' did not go to bed at 'all' that night/morning.
2. In AK's/RS's statements Amanda left RS's the morning after the murder with an 'empty plastic bag' for 'dirty washing' of 'Amanda's' to be collected from her house. Yet...police on entry to the house on the day after the murder found/heard the washing machine ending its cycle. This would either negate the claim by RS/AK that an empty plastic bag was taken to the house...'or' suggest it was taken but for a 'different' purpose stated by the pair. Incidentally, why is Amanda faffing about doing washing in a house where she has found the front door open, seen blood...damage/disaray, Meredith's door closed/locked uncharacteristicaly and her room silent...the whole suggesting some serious incident/crime had taken place, that all may not be well with Meredith and an intruder may still potentially be on the premises (perhaps in Meredith's closed room)...all causing AK to be very frightened. Why did she wash her clothes together with Meredith's? Why was bleach added to the wash and it put on a high temp cycle? The bleach question cannot be explained by RS's supposed 'Bleach Fetish/Obsession' since AK did not share this 'Fetish' and RS was not present at this time, at least according to RS/AK. 'What'' bleach did Amanda use to add to the wash? Was it bleach already present at/belonging to the house or was it from the bleach purchased that morning? If it was the latter, why had Amanda taken bleach from RS's to the student house that morning, why did niether of them mention this in their accounts...and which of them purchased/owned the bleach? This line actually begs another question...was this bleach brought from 'RS's flat' or actually instead bought on the way to going to the student house? The latter obviously would move the time of leaving RS's flat and subsequent arrival at the student house to an earlier time that morning which would in turn raise some very important questions. If the beach came from the student house...then this adds even further to the 'volume' total of bleach used at the primary and secondary crime scenes. Finally, why did Amanda not phone the police on finding the house in this state?
3. In one account both AK and RS state that on finding the student house in such a sinister state a frightened Amanda walked all the way back to RS's to ask him what should be done (wouldn't that be obvious in any case?). Would it actually not have made more sense for Amanda to 'phone' RS for this advice (even whilst walking towards RS's if Amanda was afraid of remaining close to the house). Indeed:
In another of Amanda's accounts she did indeed phone RS from the house and waited outside for him to arrive.
Again, which of the above is true? One has to be false...'a lie'.
4. On the second day after the murder RS stated in a 40 minute interview with the Sunday Mirror reporter Kate Mandsey that on the night of the murder he and Amanda went a 'party' of a 'friend' of his (could this possibly be the 'suggested' party at the student house on the evening of the murder?). Amanda and he then returned to his flat where they remained for the restof the night, according to RS.
This account then changed to both RS/AK spending the whole evening together at RS's flat.
RS then changed his account to having spent the whole evening at his flat 'alone'
AK then made the infamous 'False Confession'...to actually being at the murder scene and is a witness to Patrick going into Meredith's room and 'hearing' the murder.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she cannot remember if RS was there also or not.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she was in another room of the house with 'RS' who 'was' there...and Patrick went off to Amanda's room.
5. During the aforementioned interview with Kate Mandsey, RS received an 'angry' phone call from a male speaking Italian...and an argument took place with the conversation ending abrubtly. When Kate Mandsey asked RS who it was on the phone RS replied 'Just a friend'. I believe, this was actually RS's father. Therefore RS's statement that it was a friend was a lie. This incident is not directly important to the case. It is however an example of RS lying (to someone he was keen to impress his 'honesty', good character and innocence), demonstrating telling lies are not a problem for him.
6. Amanda stated on the day of the murder she returned from RS's to the student house where she shared a meal and a chat with Meredith before Meredith left for her (last) evening gathering with friends. Amanda herself, according to her, then returned to RS's where she spent the rest of the day/evening with him. RS's account says this return home and meal with Meredith by Amanda could not have happened, since Amanda spent the 'whole' afternoon with him.
Again, only one of these statements can be true and the other has to be false 'a lie'.
7. RS wrote in his diary that on the day of the 31st October he went into Perugia with his face painted to pick up Amanda. They then immediately returned to his flat where they spent the remainder of the evening and night alone together.
In a later account he claims he spent the evening at a dinner with friends at one of their homes. This was to be used as the alibi put forward by the 'Smiling Team' to counter the testimony of the 'Albanian Superwitness' who claimed he was engaged by RS, AK and RG in a threatening argument close to the student house, at which time Amanda allegedly pulled out a knife and menaced him with it.
Again, only one account above given by RS, for the evening of the 31st Oct, can be true...the other has to be false 'a lie'.
John T -
In regard to your timeline of lies/changed accounts...here are some additions (plus questions about them):
1. In certain account/s Amanda says she had a shower at the student house the morning after the murder (if so, 'which' shower?). Why did she require a shower that morning when she states later to police that she had a shower at RS's on the night of the murder? Especially as she also states remembering RS 'cleaning her ears' that night...clearly if true, she had a most thorough scrubbing. On planning this uneeded shower, why did she not abandon this plan...instead taking the shower in a house when it was clear something serious had happened and she was very frightened?
In certain account/s Amanda states she was frightened by what she saw at the house and went almost straight back outside not going back in (without having the shower).
Only one of the above can be true...making the other statement 'untrue' (a lie). I would like to know which is true. This is important...as someone 'did' have a shower at that house 'after' the murder...but the question I have is was taken in the morning after the murder....or on the night/early hours of the morning of the murder.
Both AK and RS (I believe both) claimed to have woke/got up a little after 10 am the morning after the murder. Bleach receipts show at least on of them got up earlier then this. Moreover, computer activity on RS's computer just after 5 am that same morning shows someone got up earlier still....'or' went to bed 'much' later then RS's stated 2 am...'or' did not go to bed at 'all' that night/morning.
2. In AK's/RS's statements Amanda left RS's the morning after the murder with an 'empty plastic bag' for 'dirty washing' of 'Amanda's' to be collected from her house. Yet...police on entry to the house on the day after the murder found/heard the washing machine ending its cycle. This would either negate the claim by RS/AK that an empty plastic bag was taken to the house...'or' suggest it was taken but for a 'different' purpose stated by the pair. Incidentally, why is Amanda faffing about doing washing in a house where she has found the front door open, seen blood...damage/disaray, Meredith's door closed/locked uncharacteristicaly and her room silent...the whole suggesting some serious incident/crime had taken place, that all may not be well with Meredith and an intruder may still potentially be on the premises (perhaps in Meredith's closed room)...all causing AK to be very frightened. Why did she wash her clothes together with Meredith's? Why was bleach added to the wash and it put on a high temp cycle? The bleach question cannot be explained by RS's supposed 'Bleach Fetish/Obsession' since AK did not share this 'Fetish' and RS was not present at this time, at least according to RS/AK. 'What'' bleach did Amanda use to add to the wash? Was it bleach already present at/belonging to the house or was it from the bleach purchased that morning? If it was the latter, why had Amanda taken bleach from RS's to the student house that morning, why did niether of them mention this in their accounts...and which of them purchased/owned the bleach? This line actually begs another question...was this bleach brought from 'RS's flat' or actually instead bought on the way to going to the student house? The latter obviously would move the time of leaving RS's flat and subsequent arrival at the student house to an earlier time that morning which would in turn raise some very important questions. If the beach came from the student house...then this adds even further to the 'volume' total of bleach used at the primary and secondary crime scenes. Finally, why did Amanda not phone the police on finding the house in this state?
3. In one account both AK and RS state that on finding the student house in such a sinister state a frightened Amanda walked all the way back to RS's to ask him what should be done (wouldn't that be obvious in any case?). Would it actually not have made more sense for Amanda to 'phone' RS for this advice (even whilst walking towards RS's if Amanda was afraid of remaining close to the house). Indeed:
In another of Amanda's accounts she did indeed phone RS from the house and waited outside for him to arrive.
Again, which of the above is true? One has to be false...'a lie'.
4. On the second day after the murder RS stated in a 40 minute interview with the Sunday Mirror reporter Kate Mandsey that on the night of the murder he and Amanda went a 'party' of a 'friend' of his (could this possibly be the 'suggested' party at the student house on the evening of the murder?). Amanda and he then returned to his flat where they remained for the restof the night, according to RS.
This account then changed to both RS/AK spending the whole evening together at RS's flat.
RS then changed his account to having spent the whole evening at his flat 'alone'
AK then made the infamous 'False Confession'...to actually being at the murder scene and is a witness to Patrick going into Meredith's room and 'hearing' the murder.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she cannot remember if RS was there also or not.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she was in another room of the house with 'RS' who 'was' there...and Patrick went off to Amanda's room.
5. During the aforementioned interview with Kate Mandsey, RS received an 'angry' phone call from a male speaking Italian...and an argument took place with the conversation ending abrubtly. When Kate Mandsey asked RS who it was on the phone RS replied 'Just a friend'. I believe, this was actually RS's father. Therefore RS's statement that it was a friend was a lie. This incident is not directly important to the case. It is however an example of RS lying (to someone he was keen to impress his 'honesty', good character and innocence), demonstrating telling lies are not a problem for him.
6. Amanda stated on the day of the murder she returned from RS's to the student house where she shared a meal and a chat with Meredith before Meredith left for her (last) evening gathering with friends. Amanda herself, according to her, then returned to RS's where she spent the rest of the day/evening with him. RS's account says this return home and meal with Meredith by Amanda could not have happened, since Amanda spent the 'whole' afternoon with him.
Again, only one of these statements can be true and the other has to be false 'a lie'.
7. RS wrote in his diary that on the day of the 31st October he went into Perugia with his face painted to pick up Amanda. They then immediately returned to his flat where they spent the remainder of the evening and night alone together.
In a later account he claims he spent the evening at a dinner with friends at one of their homes. This was to be used as the alibi put forward by the 'Smiling Team' to counter the testimony of the 'Albanian Superwitness' who claimed he was engaged by RS, AK and RG in a threatening argument close to the student house, at which time Amanda allegedly pulled out a knife and menaced him with it.
Again, only one account above given by RS, for the evening of the 31st Oct, can be true...the other has to be false 'a lie'.
The most significant thing that Lalli leaked is that the cause of death was a combination of bleeding and asphyxia. Minotaur | 02.17.08 - 9:58 am
Some of us figured this out without Lalli's help. I've caught hell in various forums for saying Meredith's death likely occurred within 10 minutes of the fatal stab. I was disappointed that other commenters seemed to not realize the importance of Van Zandt's disclosure about the fatal wound, with regard to length of time to mortality.
******
I'd like to know more about Meredith's throat wounds. Even though the carotid artery was not severed, the esophagus/trachea could have been damaged. This would result in her aspirating and/or swallowing blood. Pinecone | 12.06.07 - 12:19 am
Minotaur, I enjoy your organized comments. They help bring everything together on this new thread.
Pinecone,
What are your thoughts about the blood alcohol count that was revealed in Lalli's report?
What are your thoughts about the blood alcohol count that was revealed in Lalli's report?
Skeptical Bystander | 02.17.08 - 2:21 pm | #
The blood alcohol content could be valuable in determining time of death, if it were known how much she drank at what time.
From fiddling around with the calculator and guessing Meredith's weight, it appears that if she had a meal at her friends' place, with no alcohol, and had a glass of wine at home (around 2130), then her BAC could have been in the neighborhood of 43 around 2200-2230.
Not saying that's what happened, just a possibility.
Pinecone,
Thanks. That's exactly the reading I got fiddling around with the parameters on the link you provided last night.
Love Wolf -
"What if RS was not involved at all until the clean up in the belief that his Girlfriend of 2 weeks told him that it was not her fault and it was Guede but she was there and will get into lots of trouble if he does not help her?"
Doesn't float in my view.
If RS was simply involved in the 'Clean-Up' and his given account is a lie all driven by a desire to protect Amanda then it has failed totally in that purpose as his current alibi does not tally with Amanda's making both appear to be guilty of lying. He actually made things 'worse'...by changing his original account which 'did' tally with Amanda's supporting her alibi and by default allowing her alibi to also support his. As a result, the majority do not believe Amanda's current alibi, his current alibi...and he admitted his first account to be false. If his aim is protect Amanda he has failed miserably. He and Amanda as things stand 'now' face a serious chance of conviction. If he merely took part in a clean-up to protect, in his view, an innocent Amanda the best and only course of action he can take, which would have been the case almost from the beginning, is to 'tell' that story. It is more believable then either's current story and the worst that could happen is he is not believed...which is the case currently in anyway.
The same applies if the above 'protection' of Amanda was the intent up to a certain time...and he is now concerned with saving his own skin.
The same also applies if he has since changed his mind regarding the innocence of Amanda at some point.
The fact that he is not offering up a confession to taking part in the Clean-Up with an explanation of 'why' he took part in it flies in the face of that being the true scenario, especially as if he did so it would also enable Amanda to change her account to the 'true' version enabling their testimony to support each other once again, and offer a credible explanation of why they lied. Instead, he sticks to the story nobody believes and helps niether of them. This suggests to me that the scenario mooted did not happen.
"He and Amanda as things stand 'now' face a serious chance of conviction."
Perhaps, but the odds are not as serious as they would be if there was more forensic evidence. And the defense teams may succeed in discrediting what little forensic evidence there is so far.
The other thing the prosecution will need to convict the two is a credible motive. Group sex turned violent doesn't make sense and neither does robbery.
Michael thanks for your thoughts and you have swung me to your way of thinking.
Daniel agree with you regarding the evidence piece but I think...
1) Prosecution are holding a few 'aces' up there slieve, still to be revealed
2) I also think that AK was seen moving around that night and that testimony would hold up.
3) The cleaning effort and the bleach.. the materials at his flat (receipts and bloody rag) is not something that can be talked away....
4) Alibis and story both on the night and the morning afterwards - especially if they had not alerted the police and it was only due to the postal police arriving otherwise.....
Chris M must know something that none of is do regarding evidence and alibis because the 3 of them are guilty of something very serious and are up to it to their necks..... and I think that moving them to 3 new higher security prisons is the authorities was of saying "you ain't going nowhere in the short-term'
They all may be guilty, I don't know, but the prospect of convictions is another matter. True, the early a.m. bleach receipts and other clean-up evidence at RS's flat seem damning. So do the mismatched alibis, but as Robert M pointed out, the alibi statements may be struck if the interrogation is deemed inadmissable.
The police may indeed have some forensic "aces up their sleeves" but I'm wondering why they haven't put them on the table yet. They've released or leaked other evidence findings, particularly on RG. And they were eager to release the emergence of the witness who ran his car into the dumpster the night before the murder, which isn't exactly an ace.
By the way, can anyone provide links to reports on the bleach receipts and bloody rags? If the rags found at RS's place had Meredith's blood on them, I would agree that is very strong evidence. Have there been reports that specify the blood as meredith's?
Re Minotaur: "As to the call made to the bank at 10.15, it would not surprise me if that was caused by someone pressing an automatic-dial button by mistake when trying to switch off her phone."
Have been thinking about this one:
1. Whether or not that number was on speed-dial is something that can be ascertained by examining her cellphone.
+
2. Speaking only for myself, although someone else here mentioned it, I would not put my bank on speed-dial, even though accessing my account would require an account number.
+
3. Could it have been one of the last called numbers on her cell's recent calls list, and thus somehow got punched in by someone turning off the cellphone? (Do we know whether she called her mum or her mum called her?)
+
4. Didn't the postal police turn up with two cellphones, one belonging to Filomena?
'ample amount of toilet paper'? Perhaps the dump was 'brisk'. Stop now!
nowo | 02.17.08 - 1:28 pm | #
If it was really caused by a spicey kebab... if he really sat there for the length of a few songs... it could have been a diarrhea problem. This would not rule out using paper, then remaining on the toilet for the next wave. Hey, you guys started it!
I'm not saying I believe this is how it happened, just that it's still a possibility.
The other thing the prosecution will need to convict the two is a credible motive. Group sex turned violent doesn't make sense and neither does robbery.
daniel mintz | 02.17.08 - 3:51 pm |
This brings up the possibility that the death was an unintentional outcome of a conflict that escalated.
also the citing of HER male acquaintances as being MKs which I think Kermit mentioned yesterday ---nowo
This has often been mentioned as if it were a way for AK to say something false about MK. It's also possible, however, and I think probable, that AK didn't really know much about MK's other friends, or even care. AK was immersed in her own social interactions which seems to be centered around finding men and doing drugs, while MK's seems more like group outings with her friends. AK couldn't really know all the men MK knew, since they were not doing things together much, so she listed the ones that she herself brought home, and knew that MK had met there in the house.
Michael
In response to your points
1/ I don't think she took a shower, at the crime scene.
a) According to what she said, she was scared, then based on that, I would imagine she wouldn't have felt relaxed about having a shower there, even if she took it in the bathroom where no blood was visible.
b) Not based on her story but on what I think: She did not go to the house in the way she states, because she was involved in the murder one way or another, her perspective would have been, Meredith is lying dead in her room, no time for shower.
The priority was cleaning up/covering up.
They obviously didn't go to bed or wake up when they said, I reckon they didn't sleep a wink and to me that is how they appear on the morning in the aftermath of the slaughter, and I've been an insomniac or night hawk enough so I know how people can look.
The sleep and wake up times are lies I think. The early morning visit to the store to buy bleach says what they said there about sleeping and getting up is yet another set of lies.
2/ a) The plastic bag: I would say because they lied about the rest, that the plastic bag if there was one, would have been going to the house, not to pick up dirty laundry but to put anything in that had to be gotten out of the way.
Doing washing belonging to Meredith doesn't fit with the things said by reliable witnesses, like Meredith's friends, who have absolutely no motives at all to be "doing a Ms Knox" and trying to frame innocent peiople, Amanda and Meredith did not get on *(after a while).
Meredith lived there first, Amanda came to live there, but then did not do any household chores, not putting the trash out, not flushing the toilet and the other important irritation/thing Meredith had fears about, the bringing of various men into the house, was the cause of that conflict.
Meredith waking up, going to the kitchen and yet another stranger stood there making tea and like: Oh hi who are you?
The only reason, I can see, for Amanda doing Meredith's washing, was as part of the covering up of evidence. They were there, cleaning up early, they had been up all night most probably thinking what the hell to do and how, they went out as soon as the store opened bought bleach and that would have been when they both went over to the house, early, before anyone might come back, they had to work hard. That would be too why instead of being in the house when the Communications Special Police Group (Polizia Postale) arrived they were out in the back yard, of course, who'd want to be in the house where you know someone is lying dead in a pool of blood and you'd had everything to do with it? It was bad enough for them to have to be confronted with what they'd done and to have to clean up the carnage they'd produced on the darkest night of their lives a few hours before from which they'd had no break, no sleep. That's why, as Amanda truthfully stated, she was exhausted, yeah they both looked it, that's true.
b) The bleach was added obviously to try to wipe any signs/markers to what had gone on. Anyone knows bleach is heavy duty business.
c) The bleach they used? I would say some of that what they purchased early that morning, Amanda's might not have known if there would be bleach at the house.
d) the amount of bleach - I would imagine that most bleach would have been used in the house where the murder took place, there would not be a whole lot they needed to hide at Raffaele's home, but just to be sure, they gave Raffaele's place a clean sweep too.
The one thing I believe Amanda said that is true is about being exhausted, two apartments to clean, up all night, back and forward, terrified of what you'd done, gotten yourself into and terrified that someone would return home (unexpectedly) surely they would not have knifed them (him her) up too?
3/ I would imagine they didn't call the police because they hadn't found a crime scene they'd created the scene, they didn't call because they were still busy cleaning, they'd have called the police ONLY when they were ready, if at all. They may have planned to go back to Raffaele's and then leave the front door open and hope someone reported it so they could act out as if they knew nothing.
4/ a) The way we all use phones now yes, it is reasonable to think that anyone would, already walking along, phone, when it's an urgent matter.
b) She didn't rush back over there, is what I think, because, as Raffaele stated, it may well have been late at night when either she went to his house or they both did. Therefore, she had no blood to discover, no open door to find, no signs of a break-in to be freaked out about, because it was only Amanda herself and Raffaele trying to break out of a murder case they'd invented, somehow, along with Guede.
5/ I don't think it was the party at the home of Meredith and Amanda, because I don't believe there was any such party there.
That would have been a party somewhere in Perugia but not at home. They might have been to a party, for a few hours. Raffaele may have gone home and Amanda may have had an arrangement with Guede, where instead of the things she said, applying to Lumumba, they applied instead to Guede, where Amanda tried to set Guede up with Meredith, with Meredith knowing a thing about it.
6/ The lunch with Meredith, according to Amanda, I think, was a thing, a statement Amanda made, to try to sound convincing about Meredith and Amanda being good friends. They may have beeen before, sort of friends, but it went wrong when the irritations and disagreements took place, the worst one, being Meredith's angst for having strangers, men ones, roaming about in her abode.
7/ One must consider that not having to make immediate statements, any statements coming out by any of the defendants - as long as they do what their lawyers tell them and advise them to do - are statements made in full calculation, not off the cuff, but solid statements where they cannot get tripped up over, that's what lawyers do, study anything before it is released, the object of the exercise being not to incriminate the defendants any further than they already incriminated themselves already, either through guilt leaving a trail of evidence or plain stupidity and ignorance of procedure. The ignorance of proceduree does not mean that what a defendant says is all innocent it just means they give themselves away more easily, if they are guilty.
Typo *
5/ I don't think it was the party at the home of Meredith and Amanda, because I don't believe there was any such party there.
That would have been a party somewhere in Perugia but not at home.
They might have been to a party, for a few hours.
Raffaele may have gone home and Amanda may have had an arrangement with Guede, where instead of the things she said, applying to Lumumba, they applied instead to Guede, where Amanda tried to set Guede up with Meredith, *without Meredith knowing a thing about it.
If it was really caused by a spicey kebab
it could have been a diarrhea problem
After all his years in Italy he should have learned something from the Italians - always carry a few wine corks.
Clint, who spent 25 years with the FBI as a onetime supervisor in the Behavioral Science Unit, known as the Profilers, is an analyst for NBC News
One wound was under Meredith's chin and Clint Van Zandt the FBI expert on Behavioural Science stated this is somnone stood in front of Meredith, sticking the knife under her chin and saying, Listen here, I'm angry, I'm serious, I'll kill you.
He also stated, no, in no way was it a game of any kind, Meredith suffered a most awful death, the blood of her hand indicating how after the knife had gone in one side of her throat and out of the other had grabbed her own neck and had also stumbled trying to steady herself. She had laid on her back but the wound was not all she suffered because she choked to death.
Zandt had access to the Italian findings and called the police good police. His opinion is that it is more than likely thought that one of the suspects will start talking.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The one perhaps most likely to talk, will be, probably (I think), the one who did the least, I expect if the prosecution has an idea of which person that is, who is actually not the main defendant, they'll try to somehow get around that person.
They might have been to a party, for a few hours. John T | 02.17.08 - 7:14 pm |
In this case, there would be witnesses to this, who wouldn't mind speaking up because it's not related to the murder.
When the possible party at the house is mentioned, it may be a very small party. I'm partial to the idea it was just the four of them there that night, and that eating, drinking, and drugs (for the three) may have been a part of it. Maybe that's not a party, but it could have started out cordially. The wine MK consumed may indicate this... or she drank it alone, as someone has already suggested.
He also stated, no, in no way was it a game of any kind, Meredith suffered a most awful death, the blood of her hand indicating how after the knife had gone in one side of her throat and out of the other had grabbed her own neck and had also stumbled trying to steady herself. She had laid on her back but the wound was not all she suffered because she choked to death. John T | 02.17.08 - 7:26 pm |
It's good to remember these few sentences always.
Yesterday Raffaele Sollecito, boyfriend of Amanda Knox, Ms Kercher's flatmate, denied all knowledge of Mr Guede.
But it emerged that Ms Knox in testimony to the police before her arrest had mentioned Mr Guede as one of a number of people who had visited her flat in the past.
Mr Guede has admitted having visited the flat.
Giacomo Silenzi, downstairs neighbour, bass guitar player, played bass while Amanda played guitar.
Giacomo said: "She (Amanda) started coming down to our flat almost from the start when we hardly knew each other."
Giacomo became Meredith's boyfriend.
One guy who came to the house was tall, thin and he always wore basketball shoes and baggy trousers. He was nicknamed Body Roga (Guede)."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Going on this I fimnd it hard to believe that Knox and Guede did not know one another.
They both frequented the apartment downstairs where the four men lived.
In an off-camera interview with ABC News, Sollecito's father, Francesco Sollecito, blamed Knox for the entire situation. "She has ruined my son's life," Sollecito's father said. "I damn the day he met her."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why so forceful and resolute?
If taking into acount his son is accused innocently, then how is it that he could make up his mind that Amanda on the otrher hand is so bad?
To me, it points towards sonny boy Sollecito having told his dad things that he tells nobody else.
God knows how he has done that though, seeing as he will be aware of bugging and lack of rights to privacy being a main suspect in a murder case.
I don't know if it is permitted to bug appointments a defendant has with a lawyer. I don't think that is permitted, no lawyer would accept that. There would be no point in having a lawyer.
Guede said that Knox was not in the house on the night
Guede said she went into Amanda's room, saying that she was always smoking drugs
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If Amanda wasn't home how could Meredith have gone into her room to tell her anything?
I think what is untrue here is the bit where Guede said Amanda was not at home.
I think she was at home and I think it's possible Meredith did go to Amanda but I don't think Rudy was in Meredit'hs room as a guest.
By all reliable accounts Meredith didn't operate that way.
Meredith to Giacomo her boyfriend who didn't want to leave her when he went to visit his family:
You go, I will wait for to you here"
Meredith's LAST words to her boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi when he left to visit his parents.
Giacomo Silenzi:
"My stomach dropped - I just could not believe it. I had spoken with her for the last time just a couple of days earlier and she had sent me a text saying she was looking forward to me coming back.
"When I got to Perugia station, the police picked me up and took me to the police station.
"I had a cast-iron alibi because I had been at my parents' house since the Monday - it was a bank holiday in Italy. I was taken to a waiting room and Amanda was there.
"She hugged me and said how sorry she was. Then she introduced me to her boyfriend Raffaele. I had never met him before.
"I couldn't help thinking how cool and calm Amanda was. Meredith's other English friends were devastated and I was upset, but Amanda was as cool as anything and completely emotionless.
"Her eyes didn't seem to show any sadness and I remember wondering if she could have been involved.
"I spoke with her English friends Robyn [Butterworth] and Sophie [Purton] afterwards, and they said the same thing. None of us could quite understand how she was taking it all so calmly.
"I knew that Amanda didn't get on with Meredith, but I didn't think that would lead to Amanda killing her."
He said all of Meredith's friends had red eyes from crying and were very upset, except for Amanda, who was emotionless, everyone noticed it.
Newly graduated Raffaele ("Dottore"), as we knew, has been moved to a prison in Terni. This article states that investigators have decided to move Amanda to the Rebibbia Prison (which, I believe is Rome's largest)in the next few days.
Guede is ALSO scheduled to be moved to a yet ANOTHER unnamed prison.
No reason has been offered for the prison transfers, not even to the defense attorneys, who report being caught off-guard by news of the transfers.
http://qn.quotidiano.net/2008/
02...ito_terni.shtml
Guede said she went into Amanda's room, saying that she was always smoking drugs
If Amanda wasn't home how could Meredith have gone into her room to tell her anything? John T | 02.17.08 - 7:49 pm |
I think he meant that she went into AK's room and told HIM that AK was always using drugs. But I agree that AK was there, and RG is lying about that.
KNOX SAID: "We had only been together a short time, but we had a DEEP BOND
Even in the police station, we supported each other, trying to give each other courage, both stunned by the tragedy of Meredith's ABSURD death
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Absurd?
Isn't it sad, tragic, devastating, horrific, brutal? Yes.
Absurd?
No, absurd no, it isn't.
Absurd is: when a person tells lies that are so bad that if they were ever believed the falsely accused might end up with a sentence of life imprisonment. That is absurd as well as horrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Amanda Knox said: And I often think that if I had been home that night perhaps I would be dead, too
Shouldn't that be:
And I often think that if I had been home that night perhaps I could have saved her?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
KNOX SAID: "We had only been together a short time, but we had a DEEP BOND
DEEP BOND
She said she had not asked her boyfriend, Sollecito, to provide her with an alibi, and instead said that at one point, she recalls him with "BLOOD ON HIS HANDS".
However, she said she thought it was blood from a fish they had cooked for dinner
DEEP BOND
Knox, in turn, has alleged to police that Sollecito was a user of "cocaine and acid in the past, even if he now says he only smokes weed" and that "he is often depressed and sad".
Extracts from Amanda Knox's handwritten note, made on the evening of Nov 6, the day she was arrested:
DEEP BOND
After dinner I noticed blood on his hands, but I had the impression that the blood came from the fish. I have serious doubts about the truth of my statements because they were made under stress and shock, and I was exhausted.
DEEP BOND
This could have happened: Raffaele went to Merediths house, raped her and killed her and then, having come back home, pressed my fingerprints I was asleep onto the knife, she says.
DEEP BOND
She speculates that he then washed off the blood. Investigators have found traces of Knoxs DNA near the handle of a knife found in Sollecitos home, and of Kerchers on the blade.
DEEP BOND
But if thats how things went, I dont understand why Raffaele did it, Knox writes
Why doesn't anyone ever mention Giacomo's comment reported in Times Online November 7.
At the weekend it emerged that blood had also been found in the rented house on the hill below the cottage, which was empty at the time of the murder. Giacomo Silenzi, 22, one of four Italian students renting the house, said he had given the keys to Ms Kercher because "one of our cats had a damaged ear and we asked her to look after it while we were away".
He said his impression was that Ms Knox and Ms Kercher had been good friends. "Of all the people in their house they got on best together." he said. "Amanda was always outgoing. She started coming down to our flat almost from the start when we hardly knew each other. Sometimes she brought us cakes she had made. Other times she asked me to play music with her I play bass and she had just begun playing the guitar. She loved music, especially the Beatles."
Asked if Amanda Knox took hard drugs Mr Silenzi said: "I really dont think so. At most a couple of joints and some alcohol."
FYI, Some sobering info. about Amanda's new prison in Rome..
I found this article discussing the Female Division of Rebibbia Prison, described by a "Panorama" magazine contributer/regional politician Peppe Mariani as "Hell on Earth."
The writer's impression of the prison after his 2005 visit was one of "pure horror." He writes that the prison is exploding (more than 400 female inmates in a space that should only hold 270 women.) Of note is that more than half of the female prison population is foreign. Chinese, Africans, "and they only speak their own language." There are no translators available, claims Mariani.
The prison is understaffed and employees work shifts that are brutally long. Requisite services are not available, resulting in "pain, rage, deprssion and explosions of violence."
The health situation is "devastating" in the "Rebebbia Female Hell." Many inmates are addicts or prostitutes who live unknowingly with illness; often they are diagnosed for the first time in prison.
The number of cases of contagious diseases are increasing exponentially. And the conditions are so poor that the ongoing risk is very high.
Interestingly the inmates are immigrants, drug addicts or, elderly according to Mariani, they are NOT big-time criminals, he says.
Hard to understand, therefore, the reasoning behind the decision to transfer Amanda to this place.
http://www.ildue.it/Temi/Donne/
P...PrimoPiano=1594
I think he meant that she went into AK's room and told HIM that AK was always using drugs. But I agree that AK was there, and RG is lying about that.
Sparrow | 02.17.08 - 8:07 pm | #
^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>
Do you mean that you think Rudy was in AK's room?
What I thought he meant was both things that he said, but that he is such a bad liar he made two tales up that contradict one another without even realizing it.
Get me?
You just did. We're all different, and in sifting through the quotes and evidence, which are sometimes contradictory, different things will jump out as significant to different people.
seattleite | 02.17.08 - 8:43 pm | #
^>^>^>^>^>^^>^^>^^>^>^>^^>^>^>^>
The blood downstairs was from Giacomo's wounded cat, which Meredith was looking after too while he wrent home to his parents on the coast where he came from.
Sorry, let me repeat that:
Why doesn't anyone ever mention Giacomo's comment reported in Times Online November 7. seattleite | 02.17.08 - 8:43 pm | #
You just did. We're all different, and in sifting through the quotes and evidence, which are sometimes contradictory, different things will jump out as significant to different people.
Sparrow | 02.17.08 - 8:53 pm |
seattleite | 02.17.08 - 8:43 pm | #
>^^>^>^^>^>^>^>^>^>^>>^>^>^>^>^>^>
Opa, sorry, I see, yes, the cat you knew about.
But, they may have been friends but that changed, as far as Meredith's friends knew about.
Do you mean that you think Rudy was in AK's room?
What I thought he meant was both things that he said, but that he is such a bad liar he made two tales up that contradict one another without even realizing it.
Get me?
John T | 02.17.08 - 8:52 pm | #
I'm not sure if I get you JT, but I'll give it a try. I think you meant that two lies contradict each other, 1. that AK wasn't there, and 2. that MK went into AK's room (to tell her something.
First I think Rudy is always mixing lies with truth. I think AK was there. But I don't think his story here shows a contradiction. He said that MK opened her drawer and found her money missing. When she goes into AK's room, I imagine that it's not to talk to AK (in his lie), but it is to look for her missing money, and yes that Rudy is following MK as she's talking.
In reference to: Traduco | 02.17.08 - 8:52 pm |
Wow, I wonder if Amanda's parents will try to prevent the move. Maybe they can contact the American Embassy in Italy for help. However if this is normal procedure in Italy well they might not get too far.
Hard to understand, therefore, the reasoning behind the decision to transfer Amanda to this place
Traduco | 02.17.08 - 8:52 pm |
>^>^^>^>^>^>^>^^>^>^>^>^>^>^^>^>^>
Maybe that have to make them understand it isn't a holiday camp they are in.
The prison in Perugia is new too, so those descriptions about grim, don't seem accurate.
Grim is like those old prisons, like they have, for one, in Britain, where they used to hang people up on the front gates, old Victorian prisons that people commit suicide in on a regular basis because the set-up is so cruel and grim.
Where people come out far worse than they ever were, where immediately anyone who may have committed a minor offense will be getting first-hand info from people who choose a life of crime stating I can do the time so I am going to do the crime.
Rehabilitaion, I don't think so.
Many become institutionalized, and unable to function in the real world.
Rome isn't all great, I've lived there. It's well known how pleasant people are in Bologna, in Assissi, in all of Perugia, but in Rome, it's different it's a huge city, I imagine prison is not going to have any of the country pleasantries that Perugia has simply because of location and country air and atmosphere.
Terni is near Rome, I had a friend there, it isn't one of the loveliest places, but it isn't as big as Rome of course.
Traduco,
Could it be that the move is simply to facilitate visits for Amanda's parents, since they will no longer have to make the added trip from Rome to Perugia to see their daughter. There's certainly a direct flight from Seattle to Rome.
indie | 02.17.08 - 9:04 pm
It's normal most everywhere Indie.
When you are in prison you dfo'nt get to dictate what is what.
Not even if it inconveniences your visits, hard luck is how it goes, you are not on holiday is the theme.
In Britain a operson may be hundreds of miles away, it depends on where there is space available, it depends if a prisoner is at risk iof being harmed by other prisoners as is the case for people who tell on their co-defendants or tell on someoneoutside or for sex offenders who prisoners see as the lowest scum there is.
Those types of defendants have to be protected, the protection sees them breing put into true hell, locked away Their food spat in, if those ion the kitchens get the chance ore even urinated in a large pan, absolutely anything.
If a person goes unattended to the shower and is seen as a real baddy like a sex offender, then those people who are hreavy duty thugs, professional criminals will beat the hell out of them, even up until death. Boiling hot water with a kilo of sugar in it thrown in their face.
So those people have to be sectioned and kept on a safe wing of a prison, they ca'nt move about and take part in the things ordinary prisoners can.
Someone who had told on a co-defendant may find him or herself locked up with a child killer.
The prosecution is not playing games, Meredith was most brutally murdered there are some who seem to think it is a game like writing a story called 'My Prison' is reflective of someone who is not quite tuned in to what is what, it is in no way Amanda's prison, she doesn't run anything, she is a prisoner.
The prosecution wants the defendants to tell the truth whatever the truth is, and, they want one (or all) of them to start talking.
They will not do that if they imagine they're on a world cruise, but don't realize there isn't a boat, yet, if there was, it is definitely sinking for them.
Cripple Creek Ferry.
It's a mighty tide.
The ship is going down it's too late to find another one
The deckhands, one of them must mutiny
Whoever the captain is, someone has to reveal.
Traduco,
Could it be that the move is simply to facilitate visits for Amanda's parents
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
No way Jose
Spaarow
Just trying to find that again where I read it Sparrow
I think you might be right as it would make no sense at all and he'd have to be dead slow to say such contradictory things.
I mean he already does tell lies that compete for first prize along with those from Amanda but, I was sure he said Meredith went and said to Amanda, but second thoughts that can't be right.
Yet, in real life without the lies, I think it is true, could be, because nothing is how those three describe, so, Amanda was there, Meredith was there and Guede was there. That's my gut feeling after studying all of the info.
I'll get back to you on that one.
Traduco, Indie, Skep -
I don't think the prison moves are anything to really worry about...I 'very' much doubt any of them will be put in general population, they'll be segregated. They are high profile prisoners and that makes them targets for other prisoners. Being such high profile prisoners the ILE/italian prison authourities can't/won't risk any 'accidents' happening to them. The resulting political fallout would be far too great. They also wouldn't want them learning any new tricks from other prisoners.
Seattlite and Sparrow,
As for Giacomo's two seemingly contradictory statements, to be fair we HAVE mentioned both here at various times. But the bottom line is that they do contradict one another to some extent, and he apparently said both things. Do we have to reject one and not the other? On what basis would we do that? What did he say to the police, and how does it differ from or compare to what he has said to the press?
Also, are these translations of his words or did he utter them himself in English? I think this could be important. If they are translations, they might be bad ones. I'm a translator; believe me, bad translations are quite common. Newspapers in particular tend not to pay well and basically get what they pay for in terms of quality and reliability.
This is just one more source of complexity in this case.
Anon (are you a new anon or an old anon?):
I think you're right on the money there.
Pretty sure the quote I posted has not appeared before. What I do with them (contradictory news items) is realize these are news people taking impressions and a couple of words and writing a novel. I don't give them too much weight.
Seattlite,
I've certainly seen it before, and I'm pretty sure others here have to. I don't think it has been deliberately ignored by everyone, if that's what you're getting at.
My own feeling is that what matters is what these peripheral players have actually said to the investigators and what that will say under oath. The rest is speculation or food for thought and can't be verified.
It's a wait and see thing. This guy does, after all, have a view, and the question is whether or not it will be important.
I think the translators were no better than what you got with the tabs....I think it's a mess
Skep: You may have read it in the Times Online but I have never seen it quoted and that was indeed what I was getting at.
Abdar: I am a document person. I deal in transcripts, depositions forensic reports etc. albeit on the civil law side (I repeat I am a tech type not a lawyer) Newspaper articles in general give me a pain.
Sparrow,
RG stated that he and Meredith arrived at the cottage at 8:38 pm. This cannot be a true fact because Meredith left her friends at 9:00 pm. The short walk to the cottage would take at least 15 minutes give or take. So RG's statement is a lie and the only way that he would get into the cottage was via AK who had the key. I do not believe for a moment that Meredith would have had any kind of intimate behavior with RG. She was on her period I believe.
JohnT,
The cellphones of both RS and AK were turned off simultaneously at around 8:45 pm or so, which is not just a coincidence. They were together. RS's DNA has been found on the brassiere of Meredith Kercher. Additionally, he has no alibi to speak of really. He missed his Father's telephone call and the personal text message as well. Both his cellphone and that of AK were both turned on in the early morning I believe. JohnT, RS was a willing participant, I assure you.
I think the Newspaper articles in this case have given many a pain. My eyes have been opened and I can say that I really don't trust anything I read or hear in the press anymore. I see all the post that say lies, lies lies but then I know that they are refering to lies....or white lies....either way, to re-create this crime based on the printed information is just a waste of time...
Just out of curiosity, why do you think the phones were turned off (if they were turned off)...?
Seattlite,
I think you're being a little unfair lumping everyone in one bag, but that's okay. The point I'm making is a different one, about what may turn out to be true and what false.
The press is not all bad, though. In fact, it is an important part of the system of checks and balances.
Abdar,
There are good and bad translators. I think you're being a little unfair there.
This translator has work to do.
Abdar:
If they were turned off and that seemed odd when I read that, they were in the movies, a concert, were at home and didn't want to be disturbed. Or like me I will turn it off when I am expecting a call from someone I do not want to talk to.
The phone records with an assist from the PMK (person most knowledgeable from the phone companies) will answer if it happened or why it could have looked like it happened or exactly when it did happen.
I am not saying that all are bad. I am refering to the potential that the ones used for Amanda's interrogation may not have been of use. If you think about the amount of english writings that have been used that everyone quotes as Amanda's words....you have to wonder why they required her to write things in english.
Interpretation of the english language takes one hell of an expert and I think that Perugia most likely lacked this.
I don't think it will ever matter. Frank over at PS said that the statements are not admissable.
Abdar,
I do not know the answer to that. The fact is, that they were both turned off the same time during the night of the murder and were turned on during the morning after the murder. There is nothing one can draw about that really except for one thing.
It gives neither AK nor RS a corroborative alibi. And that is important to this case, because neither one of them have a single person who can say that they were with them during the night of the murder or the following day. You can say that there is nothing one can draw about that either. However, there DNA is at the cottage and that is a problem with no alibi.
Abdar: The press said the defense attorneys were surprised by the prison transfers. Or the timing of them? Was this in the cards or surprise?
Nothing in this case is a surprise. What I am going to say about the prison is merely speculation and my take. I think location changes are always in the cards. The womens prison that Amanda is located in is very small. It is only a small part of that prison location in Perugia......maybe 1 building. It may be better for the authorities to make the move in order to cut out all the leaks and unethical professionals that may not be executing their jobs (at the prison) appropriately. Maybe by such a move, controls can be put in place that preserves this case from further scrutiny. This is just my take on the idea of any more. I have not heard that this actually took place.
Abdar: "to re-create this crime based on the printed information is just a waste of time..."
I have often had that view. But some of the printed information is the suspects' written statements. With Knox and Sollecito, even those statements are vague and suspiciously confusing, as many posters have pointed out. I'll have to hear of better forensic evidence than what's been presented so far before I conclude knox or sollecito are guilty of anything, but the lack of corroboration and clarity in their statements seem to be a big problem for many observers.
Abdar: Re: transfers:
Nor had I read it actually had taken place. Sloppy note on my part.
Daniel,
You are correct. Most of us here have stuck only to the statements of the three individuals who are currently considered suspects in this case. That is all we can go by; we have nothing else except a smidgen of evidence that has been heretofore either released or leaked by the authorities.
I find it extremely curious to hear that the authorities have moved all three individuals to separate prisons; very curious. I am sure people here will be giving their opinions and I look forward to hearing from them.
daniel,
I think you are correct there. Much of the information is like pieces (vaguely arranged) that leave so many holes to finish the truth about what is being reported. As things move forward, the missing colors will be brought forth and many will finally see the same picture that people like me have already painted.
What I believe has happen is that an image has already been portrayed so for many, it is difficult to think that we could be lied to via media interpretations. I am not saying that the image people have assumed is that Amanda and Rafael are guilty of murder but they think they are guilty of something. This impression was created from the first week of this crime and has been painted several different ways ever since.
We know now that many of the ideas have been discounted and so the process to re-build is underway but I think that many have tainted ideas about the people involved and therefore I think their portraits will be blurred.
She was on her period I believe.---bpcl
Hey, bpcl, why do you believe that? It's not the tampon things is it? Remember that was a bad translation? The Italians were talking about Rudy's DNA being found on a swab, used to take evidence from inside MK. In some British press, they translated what was supposed to be "swab" as "tampon."
Abdar,
Both RS and AK are guilty of something. Both of them have systematically lied about what their version of the events were on the night of the murder. Why have they changed their stories? RS has changed his twice and AK has changed hers numerous times; at least four times by my count. If you discount what she has said from the beginning, and that of RS, then you are left with two people with no alibis. RS's last version is that he was home alone. AK states that she was with RS. This is a an apparent contradiction in terms.
you have to wonder why they required her to write things in english. ---Abdar
Isn't it she who wanted to write it in English, because it was easier for her to do?
Sparrow,
I did say I believe, because I was not sure. I am sure when the evidence is presented, we will learn more about this fact. That being said, RG's DNA is in a place where it should not have been. Meredith lost her life and with RG's DNA on her body, it could only lead one to believe that she was resisting, I am sure you will agree.
bpcl,
"Both RS and AK are guilty of something."
I am not trying to be rude, but there is nothing else for me to say to you about this.
I think your very question of Why have they changed their stories is the question that many of you need to learn. In time, you will have that answer.
I can't say anything else about this.
It may be better for the authorities to make the move in order to cut out all the leaks and unethical professionals that may not be executing their jobs (at the prison) appropriately. Maybe by such a move, controls can be put in place that preserves this case from further scrutiny. This is just my take on the idea of any more. I have not heard that this actually took place.
abdar | 02.18.08 - 12:33 am | #
This is a good guess in light of Lalli's firing, and rumors that more is to come.
bpcl,
Where was the DNA found that it should not be?
I did say I believe, because I was not sure. ---bpcl
But what leads you to believe that? There must be something.
This draws the question....why did she have to write in english? Why was easier to write in english?
I better not say anymore. It's best you draw your own conclusion about this area for the time being.
sorry 
that was to you sparrow...
Abdar,
I have to strongly disagree with your statement about the lack of linguistic expertise in Perugia, for one simple reason: it is a university town, and not just any. Students from all over Europe come for the Erasmus and other programs. I think linguistic expertise is as easy to get in Perugia as great chocolate.
I am also not sure Amanda was required to write in English, and if she was, so much the better--it is her native language.
You can't have it both ways on the language issue. I'm afraid you seriously weaken your case in my eyes if you take that road. All of the written statements made by the various protagonists can be translated by competent professionals. I would imagine this is of great importance for Amanda's parents right now. If they are looking for competent translators of the documents they are receiving, let me know. I know lots of extremely qualified people who could help out.
Why was easier to write in english?
I better not say anymore. It's best you draw your own conclusion about this area for the time being.
sorry
abdar | 02.18.08 - 1:01 am | #
That's okay Abdar, but I can give my guess, which to me seems obvious, English is her native language, so it would naturally be easier for her. And this is a very important document, she doesn't want to make any mistakes.
Abdar,
It was just recently reported or leaked by the pathologist Dr. Lalli, that the DNA of RG was found in the vagina of Meredith Kercher. The Doctor stated that this DNA transfer was probably the result of a finger or fingers transferred by RG. The Doctor also stated that there did not appear to be any physical contact by the sexual organ of RG, i.e. that she was raped, although that could be open to discussion, I am sure. The Doctor stated that there was evidence of physical activity on the part of Meredith although he could not say when.
bpcl,
My bad, I was refering to Amanda and Rafael...
I just went to the True Crime home page and Steve Huff reports that he is having some health problems. Many here obviously respect him. Mr. Huff has made optional donations possible with Paypal.
Thank you, Daniel.
Thanks Daniel.
Sparrow,
To know the answer to your question would be to solve this crime. I have never stated my theory about how or why Meredith Kercher died that night. I have only stuck with the facts. RG was there that night as he said. He definitely arrived there before Meredith, because he stated that he arrived at the cottage at 8:38 pm. He could only have gotten into the cottage by AK who had the key. Cellphones were turned off around this time by key individuals. I do not think RG lied about this time.
Meredith was not going there to meet him. She had never been seen with RG, ever. She would not be going back to that cottage with the idea of being intimate with RG. There is just no way, even though it cannot be proved. Meredith lost her life for sexual reasons precisely because RG's DNA has been found(leaked to us) in/on her body. The sexual stimulation of her body on the part of RG was the beginning of this assault on Meredith Kercher. She just was not going to participate and it ended up with her losing her life. The DNA of RS is on her brassiere(as leaked by the Authorities) There is no way that could happen unless RS were there too; just no way. I do not wish to go further with my belief as to what happened there that night; in time, I think it will be revealed by the authorities in the presentation of their evidence. The authorities have always stated that this was a sexual assault on Meredith Kercher and I believe them based on the evidence that has been presented/leaked to us and the fact that two of suspected individuals have absolutely no alibi that could stand up in a court of law.
bpcl:
I absolutely do not want to offend a friend of the family severely impacted by this or add to any of the burden of the victim's family even if they never have occasion to stumble across this but in lieu of documentary evidence I come back to motive.
Outside of a home invasion, robbery, burglary, or acquaintance attack I do not see one. I only see one suspect with the possibility of one of these motives.
I keep coming back to how three people with limited commonality (three different backgrounds, multiple laguages, short term living and working situations) could engage in concert in anything like this in any of the permutations--except in a Manson-esque or Mostro-esque scenario which fortunately only comes along every decade or two.
It doesn't make sense and trying to fit the facts to that scenario is great fiction but bad logic.
I can't get three people that I pay to act in concert. None of the scenarios I have read here and in the press pass the. (Pinecone and Robert M scenarios excepted.)
There is a suspect with DNA on the dead girl with a reported history of agressiveness towards women who said he was there. I am not saying case closed but I don't need another gunman on the grassy knoll to understand this crime.
Seattlite: "with a reported history of agressiveness towards women"
I must have missed this. Was it reported in the press (or elsewhere) that he had a history of aggressive behavior towards women?
Seatteite,
Neither RS nor AK have an alibi that can stand on two legs. If their DNA is in that cottage (The DNA of both AK and Meredith mixed has been found on the sink as reported by the authorites. The DNA of RS has been found on the brassiere of Meredith Kercher) then it must stand that they participated in this fiasco, no matter how illogical it may seem, based on what you said. Please understand, this is my opinion and only time will tell what really happened that night. However, as it stands right now, no alibi, with DNA in the cottage implies presence.
20/20 (that American-Perugia tour guide crime novelist kid) and a short video interview I recall not where with another student. Also in print somewhere...I will dig it up.
Seattlite,
Yes, I realize this, but given your distrust of the press and all that is printed, I am truly astonished.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I just don't get it. Why should we believe what people say about Rudy and what the press reports about Rudy and then discard the rest as rubbish? I don't quite see how to do this, and this is a big problem.
Same with Abdar's linguistic argument, I'm afraid.
Seattlite,
And there was motive on the part of AK. She was going to be fired by Patrick Lumumba, owner of the "le Chic restaurant, and replaced by Meredith. Patrick has stated that. It has been reported by the Father of Meredith and some of her friends that Meredith was not happy with the several men that AK was bringing to the cottage. It has been reported that the two of them did not see eye to eye about hygiene in the cottage. It has also been stated by both RS and AK that they were high on drugs the day of the murder. People do do strange, uncharacteristic things when they are high on drugs.
"People do do strange, uncharacteristic things when they are high on drugs"
Not good with old marijuana, bcpl. And no, I don't think Amanda's being replaced on the job by Meredith, if that was indeed the case, is a credible motive scenario.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 1:16 am |
Sorry bpcl, I thought you were still believing she was on her period, despite the tampon explanation. I misunderstood.
correction, make that "good old marijuana."
Goodnight to all.
Abdar and Seattlite: I really want to understand, but you are both wanting to have things both ways and that doesn't seem right to me.
Daniel,
You may be right about that. You can pick apart anything I say here and you may be right. I was just trying to say that there is a motive; jealousy. And though you may call it marijuana, we do not know what type. Marijuana can be extraordinarily potent in certain forms. Also, the issue of motive defines whether or not premeditation was involved. That is still to be determined, or rather proved.
That being said, no alibi and their DNA at the cottage implies presence.
Skep:
Nowak was in the Dateline:
Dennis Murphy: Did this guy Rudy have a reputation for being a drug guy? He was the guy who could find you some smoke?
Zach Nowak: No, but he did have a reputation for being sort of the guy who bugged the girls. To the point where the girl would go to the bartender and say Look, this guy is bugging me. Can you tell him to leave?
20/20 (that American-Perugia tour guide crime novelist kid) and a short video interview I recall not where with another student. Also in print somewhere...I will dig it up.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 1:32 am
My problem with the tour guide/novelist is that he doesn't know Rudy. He says he saw him around, and described him as "a loner." The trouble with this is that Rudy seems to have a lot of friends. If I see someone who knows Rudy well, and says this, that's another story. Or, more importantly if a woman complains about him. I saw that student in the video too, and I think he just said that Rudy was "REAL interested in girls." I have a feeling that the other few print references I've seen of this aggressiveness are just repeats of that novelist's words. They are never backed up by any incidents described first hand.
Skep:
My theory is you can't get three people of limited commonality to commit a brutal murder without a major pathology or circumstance --I do not see it. But I have been wrong a few times today already so I listen and read about it.
Seattlite:
You're missing the larger point. Is it deliberate?
I KNOW what Zach said. I KNOW what Giacomo said...I KNOW what they have all said and what has been reported. Are press reports credible or not? Is Zach giving his opinion or stating a fact? Have other people said the same thing or not? Have they said it under oath or not?
Just because it's on television doesn't mean it's more reliable than what some journalist puts in quotes.
Seattleite,
RG's lawyer has stated that the DNA of RG is at the cottage; there is no doubt about that. RG also stated that there were other people in the cottage that night as well. RG's lawyer stated too that that did not mean that he killed Meredith Kercher. These lawyers all have something up their sleeves as you well know. RG knows more about this crime then he is willing to tell. All three of these individuals know something about what happened that night in the cottage. Right now it is a cat and mouse game about who will reveal what. We are just going to have to wait and see. It is my belief that the three of them will argue that they had nothing to do with the crime until the bitter end. Daniel Mintz stated a few posts that he will have to wait until he sees the strength of the DNA evidence. I agree with him. Since nobody is willing to own up to anything, it will have to be the strength of the DNA that will determine the truth of the matter. Don't you agree?
Seattlite,
We're all in the same boat! Personally, I don't think they acted in concert. I don't think there was pre-meditation per se.
I see your point.
But there is so much we dson't know and accidents happen all the time. Whether people act in concert or not, shit happens. And that's what I'm interested in here.
Seattlite:
P.S. I didn't mean to sound so grumpy. I'm tired and have to go to bed!
It's a pretty grumpy case.
Press: Depends doesn't it. If I guy is willing to put his mug on camera and take the heat for his words he has a little bit more credibility, no?
He could only have gotten into the cottage by AK who had the key.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 1:16 am
I see it mentioned, every so often, that Rudy could not have got into the house without Amanda's key. Has everyone forgotten that he has a history of breaking and entering? Do you know what kind of locks were on all the entry doors? A screwdriver with the end filed thin is useful for jimmying locks, and could also serve as a weapon.
Press: Depends doesn't it. If I guy is willing to put his mug on camera and take the heat for his words he has a little bit more credibility, no?
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:01 am | #
Not if he has a book to sell. Whether or not he's right, he suffers no ramifications, but he gets publicity. And again, he was giving his opinion. His credibility would come from how well he really knows things.
Seattelite,
RG and AK were lovers; they admitted this, so you have two people who knew one another at least from that point of view. AK had been staying at his home every day. We do not know who was supplying the drugs to both AK and RS. Maybe it was RG, we do not know yet. If it is proven however, that AK phoned RG both before and after the murder, as has been reported/leaked, then obviously, you have the third connection.
Sparrow:
There is another student (with no book)who says the same thing in much stronger terms in the 20/20 I believe. I will try to find it.
Pinecone,
You are correct about that. However, the Police/Authorities and no one else has ever reported that the cottage was broken into.
You are correct about that. However, the Police/Authorities and no one else has ever reported that the cottage was broken into.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 2:07 am
They saw no signs of forced entry. That doesn't mean the lock was not jimmied. It means they saw no signs of force. They also said case closed, and no robbery, and gave Rudy time to escape to Germany.
Sparrow:
There is another student (with no book)who says the same thing in much stronger terms in the 20/20 I believe. I will try to find it.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:06 am |
I saw that and mentioned it a short time ago. The student was sitting outside. It looked like it was either outside a bar, or a party. There were lots of other people milling about and it looked like drinks and smokes around. It was a casual atmosphere. I hope you get the quotes, because from my memory, as I wrote before, I thought he merely said that Rudy was "REALLY into girls." But whatever it is, it has the strength of one guy's opinion stated in a casual atmosphere.
I will not argue those points. The saying 'Case Closed' has not been used since the very first days of this crime. Whey you look at the volume of information that has come out about this crime, even the authorities know that 'Case Closed' is simplistic. None of us know what happened that night in the cottage and I do not think we ever will. However, the fact that neither RS nor AK have an alibi, their current alibis are different, and their DNA in the cottage (reported/leaked) will imply presence.
None of us know what happened that night in the cottage and I do not think we ever will. bpcl | 02.18.08 - 2:16 am |
I really hope that's not true. Goodnight bpcl, and all. Seattlite, don't dig around too late. There's always tomorrow.
No force entry could also mean that RG was let into the cottage by AK.
REALLY into girls and bothers women in bars to the point where they ask he be thrown out and he has a thing for Amanda and Meredith and foreign girls in general and he ends up in a room with a dead foreign girl. You don't find this connective?
Sparrow,
Keep the faith! That is the glue that holds us all together in spite of our differences. This globe we travel on is our ship, it is all we have in our celestial heaven. Faith and hope is what keeps it turning. See yah!
Rudy's a real Einstein for pointing the cops to the robbery motive after leaving his own blood on the victim's purse and transferring Meredith's blood from his hand as he fumbled around inside the purse. You can be sure Meredith was not able to reach into the purse herself after the fatal stab.
Seattlite,
There is no question that RG was involved in this murder. That is a given. The question is, did he do it alone? That is what we are trying to discover. We just have to wait until the DNA evidence is presented to see whether or not others were involved. Or, if RG decides to tell his side of the story. The problem is, that all three of the suspected individuals have systematically lied so it is hard to discern what is truth and what is untruth when any of them speak.
REALLY into girls and bothers women in bars to the point where they ask he be thrown out and he has a thing for Amanda and Meredith and foreign girls in general and he ends up in a room with a dead foreign girl. You don't find this connective?
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:20 am | #
I'd have to know more. The only reason I believe that Amanda did sleep with a lot of guys, and made unwise choices with some of them is because she mentions it, and her roommate also did. If I heard a guy say that about her, in an atmosphere like that of the student who talked about Rudy, I would file it as possible, but not yet believed. When I was at university, I had a lot of friends. Many of them guys. How many was I sleeping with? None. But many people who didn't know me said otherwise.
I know Rudy is deeply involved in this crime for sure. But I want to know what really happened. In this case about Rudy's behavior with women, I'd like to hear from either people who really know him, women who have their own complaint about him, and the police.
And what's this about having a thing for foreign girls? Is there anything wrong, odd, criminal about that? What does that mean to you? And most university age heterosexual men, are REALLY into girls.
Keep the faith! That is the glue that holds us all together in spite of our differences. This globe we travel on is our ship, it is all we have in our celestial heaven. Faith and hope is what keeps it turning. See yah!
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 2:23 am | #
That was really nice. Ciao for real this time.
We do have any television into what happened in the cottage that night. If any of us state anything here, it is pure speculation. RG's lawyer has stated that RG'S DNA is on the purse, and on Meredith, but that does not mean he killed her. The blood of AK has been found mixed with that of Meredith on the sink in the bathroom. The DNA of RS has been found on the brassiere of Meredith. The DNA of Meredith and AK has been found on a kitchen knife in the flat of RS. No one can say what happened for sure in the cottage other than one of the three individuals currently in custody, and they are currently not speaking.
Sparrow:
Ridy's motives: I guess the answer would be, it depends on far you would take it. No sarcasm intended.
Rudy's Motives: of course.
Ridy's motives: I guess the answer would be, it depends on far you would take it. No sarcasm intended.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:35 am | #
Why do I keep refreshing one last time? I think I would have to agree with you on this one. It's that other talk that I don't buy. It's weak.
You might not see it, but I'm keeping an open mind. About the DNA what are the possibilities?
1. It got there through consensual petting.
2. It got there by force before the stabbing.
3. It got there after the stabbing.
In number three, I don't mean necrophelia. I mean, some guys... it happens in ambulances, hospitals, dentist's offices, etc. It happens wherever a woman can be incapacitated.
I'm not ruling any out yet. Goodnight.
bpcl: The question is, did he do it alone?
What would he need or want anyone else there for? I do not think his actions were premediated in terms of murder. He is a big guy against a small woman. Whether he wanted money or sex or if it changed by the moment I think Meredith screamed and he stopped her.
Seattlite,
You are entitled to your opinion. From my perspective, and please do not feel in any way that I am trying to make light of the situation, you are not considering all that I have written. You are not considering the fact that neither RS nor AK have an alibi, that they have been lying about there whereabouts on the night of the murder. And you are not considering the fact that their DNA has been found mixed with Meredith and on her brassiere. In order to understand this case, you must realize, that to ignore this information would be to ignore what really happened that night. I do beg your pardon, honestly.
bpcl:
I consider them. I don't know what the alibis are and I don't think you could either from press reports/leaks. The DNA also is in doubt. She lived there and RS was there that afternoon. DNA perfectly matched on a murder victim is proof, A trace DNA hit is not and might never even make it to court.
Gotta go but enjoyed exchanging theories. Best to all and thanks to Abdar and good to see the 'Cone.
Seattlite,
All that you are saying there is to refute the evidence. If I were to use your arguments there, then everything you are saying about RG is hearsay. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You and I will just have to wait until the evidence is presented.
Seattlite,
"All that you are saying there is to refute the evidence. If I were to use your arguments there, then everything you are saying about RG is hearsay. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You and I will just have to wait until the evidence is presented.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 3:05 am | #"
Seattlite - I would go even further please can you explain your views of the clean up and framing that occured into the night and the following morning whilst Guede for the bext part was patying the night away thinking that this would be his alibi until he found out that those that did the cleaning, the ones he trusted, did such a VERY poor job of it... thank goodness!!
This is a group crime and I think it all started with Meredith confronting Amanda regarding her missing money that night..... the rest is a sad trail leading to her murder.....
Amanda didn't need money. What is the motive for the group crime?
Abdar...
You keep saying that when the truth is known.....
I look forward to seeing the evidence that backs up the truth and also Amanda alibi that actually stands up and can be verified.
1) Being drunk, stoned and have a memory failure does not count I am sorry.
2) Hoping that everyone things this was a lone wolf crime (as hinted by seattlite) also will not work as one person will not be charged for enabling, doing the murder and clean afterwards.
I agree that a lot of what has been said in the papers is not worth the paper it is printed on but all in all there are consistant messages in the press and the individuals involved that clearly shows that RS and AK were not homealone all evening watching DVD's cuddles up on the sofa.
If evidence is shown to me that proves otherwise and they are discharged I will be the first one on here and on other blogs to say that I got this wrong and apologise.
Best regards
Seattlite.
I did not say Amanda took the money.
Guede may have had light fingers or Amanda may have told him where Meredith kept her money.
I think having found it had been taken it started the chain of events.
"Amanda didn't need money. What is the motive for the group crime?"
A point on this, why did Amanda look for part time work if she had $$$ in the bank?
Also if she did have a drug habit and enjoyed drinking, on her admission alone says she was stoned and drunk that day... how did she pay for these habits. That money in the bank was for food, rent, books, I am fairly sure that her kind parents did not allocate a % for drink and drugs and I lso believe that RS father was an eagle in respect to monitoring his sons spending and life in general so I am fairly sure that he was not the lone supply chain for drugs either.
From what I read on some student blogs about Perugia-- these jobs for foreigners don't pay much anyway. A little pocket change and the socializing. I just don't think the job was a make or break thing.
I think I also read that the drinks are free if you are handing out flyers. I must be off now; late here.
Thanks Seattleite
Regarding drinks are free you are porobably right, but that would not apply during a weekend when you are out with friends, that alcohol has to purchased from a shop.
Regarding part time jobs, I did plenty when I was younger (30 years ago!) and I know that I did not do just for social interaction.. the money was important and allowed me to do other things... in my case socialising and drinking.. not drug taking... I was a good wolf ;o)
Take care
John T
Thanks for this posting... which I have not seen before. Does this add weight to AK being the ne holding the knife and RS and Guede being behind / above Meredith....... or switch any of the 3 around... this was NOT one person holding the knife, she must have been held down and restrained whilst being threatened..... did Clint make any follow up statements anywhere regarding the case?
"Clint, who spent 25 years with the FBI as a onetime supervisor in the Behavioral Science Unit, known as the Profilers, is an analyst for NBC News
One wound was under Meredith's chin and Clint Van Zandt the FBI expert on Behavioural Science stated this is somnone stood in front of Meredith, sticking the knife under her chin and saying, Listen here, I'm angry, I'm serious, I'll kill you.
He also stated, no, in no way was it a game of any kind, Meredith suffered a most awful death, the blood of her hand indicating how after the knife had gone in one side of her throat and out of the other had grabbed her own neck and had also stumbled trying to steady herself. She had laid on her back but the wound was not all she suffered because she choked to death.
Zandt had access to the Italian findings and called the police good police. His opinion is that it is more than likely thought that one of the suspects will start talk"
A trace DNA hit is not and might never even make it to court.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 3:03 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is where you are wrong, I think.
To say this shows you are not understanding matter, atoms, and what DNA is.
Specks of DNA I think, I heard you say somewhere, and now you are on about it again, but DNA is invisible did you think you get a lump like a camel fig or what?
Double stranded DNA. It's a code that one of the main unravellers of it said, after seeing how intelligently it is composed, I can omnly think beings from another realm/galaxy must have planted it on earth.
So anyway I hope they find these horse marshamellows you seem to think are out there, soon.
Nicki explained it hair-fine how the processes work in the lab.
Post asbout DNA in response to Seattleite is from me.
Seattliete
"REALLY into girls and bothers women in bars to the point where they ask he be thrown out and he has a thing for Amanda and Meredith and foreign girls in general and he ends up in a room with a dead foreign girl. You don't find this connective?"
I find it very connective especially if it is found out that Guede hung out with AK and RS and sometimes may have provided drugs to them upon request
I would imagine that the prosecution are going all out to show the links between all 3
I still find it amazing that AK has no made no mention to the police that Guede even existed, as clearly she knew him and he has been to the cottage in the past.
I agree Love Wolf
Need money?
1 gram of hash or weed, ayt 15 euros a gram
2 grams a day = 30 euro
7 days
7x30 euros = 210 euros a week and 840
a month, approximately.
They were smoking all day, 2 gramns is finished justt like that if you smoke with friends.
but let's say, to cut the scepticism out half of that, to a very moderate 1 gram a day. That's 420 euros a month.
How it really works though is in places where people cant always buy so easily, people buy more when they have the chance and think they will haveenough to last such and such a time but they end up smoking more than they ever did because they have so much.
At 400 and more euros a month on smoke alone, a few thousand euros is nothing.
What people spend on smoke would normally buy them groceries for a few days.
It is highly probable Amanda needed to work to keep hold of her capital.
If you smoke a few hundred euros a month then want to go out eat out, drink in bars, and socialize, it's not cheap even in Perugia, It isn't cheap to live in Italy.
John T
Thanks for putting the 'flesh' on my thinking and when looking at the calculations then I think that a part time job is fairly essential... and I would have been pi**ed if my house mate.. the popular girl that no one had a bad word to say against had taken my job... that would have made someone angry... angry enough to overstep the mark.... high on drinks and drugs.... I wonder?
I am sure that the prosecution would be able to look at what was in AK's account and do calculations regarding incoming and outgoings and be able to do the sums re rent, food, phone, internet, etc.
Just because she had $$$ in her account means nothing to me. That was survival money to get her through her stay... this was not playing money!
Love Wolf
That prick under the chin.
My impression was that it was done standing, like a challenge but very unequal because one has a knife the other doesn't.
The image the behavioural expert conjured up, made me very sad.
I'll post the ink to the 6 page article, a good article, unbiased.
Being biased, one way or the other, is not productive towards finding out the truth.
The knife under the chin, was complete intimidation, control, and it was a short instant from that to the fatal blow.
People who are unable to converse properly and who can't get their way, sometimes react by getting violent.
The money.
I imagine it could have been Guede stealing it and that was the last and final straw for Meredith who then may have confronted Amanda.
Meredith's frustrations would have come to a peak, her money now gone, all of these men in the house, no privacy.
Having to be fully clothed just to go to the bathroom, for fear of bumping into yet another stranger, when after al it was the home of women.
Okay, if one had a boyfriend, then everyone would have known who he was, but to go to the kitchen in the morning to make tea and be greeted by someone you've never seen, who then eyes you up and down, would be disconcerting, if it happened a lot.
From Page 5 of the interview with Clint.
Clint Van Zandt: It had to be a horrific crime scene and a terrible way to die.
Chief investigators in Italy's national crime lab gave Dateline extraordinary access to the Meredith Kercher murder file.
Chillingly, the CSI director told NBC how he believes Meredith died. Its a detail not reported until now. He demonstrated with his letter opener how the student was stabbed through the throat...
Dennis Murphy: All the way through the neck?
Directoire: Si.
A large blade knife made a through wound, left to right, coming out the other side.
And authorities believe a knife like a common kitchen knife taken from Raffaele, the boyfriend's apartment, may be the murder weapon.
Even though it had been scrubbed with bleach, analysts found traces of Meredith's DNA on the knife tip, and traces of Amanda's DNA near the handle.
What really pulled it together for Clint was a chance to study an array of the crime scene photos.
Clint Van Zandt: The blood that's on her hand would suggest that she had gone up to her throat. She had grabbed her throat realizing the knife had been a through and through wound. She's bleeding profusely. She's grabbed her throat, her hands are full of blood and she's reaching back trying to catch herself trying to hold herself up...
Clint thought the DNA on her body and the location of blood spray from the wound supported the investigative theory that Meredith was being sexually attacked from behind, bent over or perhaps being forced to her knees.
With the forensic briefing under our belt, early the next morning we went over to the little house where someone had plunged a knife into Meredith's neck after first threatening her with it.
Clint Van Zandt: This is someone who took a knife and first of all, they'd put it up under the victim's, like this. It's like pointing up, like this.
Dennis Murphy: Im talking to you, this is serious. Huh?
Clint Van Zandt: This is to get the victim's attention and say, "You are going to comply with me and this is how serious I am." But then sometime after that, probably very quickly, there is the other, the killing wound.
Dennis Murphy: That's a forceful push, huh?
Clint Van Zandt: This was, "Im angry. I'm forceful. I'm going to kill you."
Dennis Murphy: Do you see anything consistent with any sex game fantasy play you've ever encountered here?
Clint Van Zandt: This is no game. This is someone who was horribly violated and went through a terrible murder, because she didn't just die of the stab wound, she died because the blood was in her throat and she drowned in her own blood.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2233...2332240/page/5/
You are right John, very sad indeed...
Meredith comes across as a very proud and happy person, no one has said one bad word about her either in Perugia or elsewhere. She appears to have had good friends in Perugia (international mix) and Coulsden which is close to where I live.
I think that she had enough of what was going on in her cottage and sadly chose the wrong moment to deal with the issue...
Very sad...
John,
Your last posting re Clint makes me think even more that 3 people were engaged in the killing of Meredith...
JohnT, RS was a willing participant, I assure you.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 12:09 am | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Yes, I think so, he was either fully involved, or, he became involved when he allowed himself to be used to cover up.
I still think, somehow BPCL, that sex is involved.
Like the images too, in the lingerie store, they giove me a very bad feeling, can't help it, because just like right outside the home where the murder happened, right when the police had just arrived and Amanda And Raffaele were pictured kissing, the images meshed, those ones with the ones in the store, kissing again, Knox laughing, smiling, he stood there like, a compliant dog, they looked anything but upset to me.
Yet still, the main idea I'm having, is that Knox and Guede stood at the crossroads, sold their souls to the devil, and did the dirties, I think Sollecito led by his sexual organ, having his brain there, was easily led by Amanda. Sollecito sold his soul down the river too, when he became mother's little helper.
That's how it seems, because I still can't work out otherwise, any of it, and, I do think, in amongst what they say, is at various twists and turns in the road a few strands of truth.
But in all the wrong places so it becomes lies to suit their own needs.
For Raffaele to deny what Amanda said, means one or both is lying.
He says she wasn't at his place until 1 o clock at night.
He may have done that to try to distance himself from her.
But if one goes down, then all fall, I think.
The things Amanda has said aboyt Raffaele, to me, mean that he can't be equally guilty as she is, because if he was, she could use that against him, but if he was not there, then she can say things because he doesn't know what happened either, he only knew what she told him (if this is what happened) when she came home as he said at 1. Came home, probably in great distress. He'd have been, oh what what is there what's wrong. And so at that moment, shd have been spinning a web of deceit, drawing him into feeling thinking that Amanda was a victim, because of Guede, doing things it was going to look like she had been involved when she had not. But what Sollecito did not know, was that she was involved and maybe, in fact, was the one who killed Meredith.
I do seriously think it was Guede and Amanda somehow, involved together.
For Amanda to start blaming Sollecito as she did, the fish/blood, the scenario of him going off to0 raope and murder and set her up, is reflective not of his character traiots, but of her own.
She is the one who set Patrick up, it was not Sollecito who did that.
In her story diary, My Prison, she then goes on to accuse in a round-about way, Sollecito.
If he had been equally involved, how would she have imagined she could start blaming him without running the risk he'd tell all?
He can't tell all, because he wasn't there. (I think)
But she knows, cunningly, and notedly, how he feels she knows his fears and the fears he has is that he can nevcer admit it, because of his dad, his dad of high standing, he'd be finished. So, Amanda is in a way, blackmailing him, by making him scared.
She is far more calculated and criminally minded, being that she has done what she did, that is a crime to falsely accuse an innocent man it may niot be evidence in court but to me it is evidence of her character. It's part of her. Not many people would do what she did by framing Patrick a man with a baby and a wife and a man who helped her by giving her a job.
In my view, the one who is playing games, but on the other hand is most serious, is Amanda. She is psychologically holding Sollecito to ransom, knowing how he thinks and feels (and fears), though he aided a cover-up she knows he wants to get off entirely. So she can play around with saying bulls--t stuff about him because the stuff she said was so weak anyway, she knew it and he knew it, would-you-ever, he whaaaaaaat??? creeped off, raped and murdered, sneaked back in, rubbed her hand on the knife. That's why she made that up, to make those who it is important to, think that she is trying to think up who is the guilty one, even if it means pretending to think it might be Sollecito, when all the time, she is as guilty as sin. It's transparent, she is not opague, her thinking is like a sieve for pasta.
To disprove that stance, that she is guilty, she can choose to either tell more lies and only prove more so, that's she is a pathological liar, or start telling the truth. When she tells the truth, she'll be believed. Because the strength of conviction behind it will be real and, the loose ends will all tie in together. Right now it is spaghetti junction and it's a traffic jam.
No way would they be in jail if they are innocent, because they'd not be telling crap about one and other, they'd say what really went on. If they'd have been at home, and not at the murder scene it would have been clear. It is not clear and the people to blame for that, are not those in authority, those trying to get justice for Meredith but they themselves are to blame for the lies and lack of belief in them.
Behind the scenes though they'll (Guede's lawyers) never admit it because that's what lawyers do. Guede's lawyers know his case scenario is ridiculous, amongst themselves they'll have debated it and had a laugh at how ridiculously weak Guede's storyline is.
Their strategy? Now Rudy just keep your mouth shut and you do what we say. He isn't making a noise. He already has the card, Go To Jail, No Way Out, what else can he possibly do but shut up?
John T
1 gram of hash or weed, ayt 15 euros a gram
2 grams a day = 30 euro
7 days
7x30 euros = 210 euros a week and 840
a month, approximately...
That's a pretty wild overestimation of Amanda's cannabis costs on anyone's calculations.
From the EU:
Price and potency
In 2004, the average retail price of cannabis resin in the EU varied from 2.3 euros per gram in Portugal to over 12 euros per gram in Norway, while the price of herbal cannabis ranged from 2.7 euros per gram in Portugal to 11.6 euros per gram in Malta, with a majority of countries reporting prices for cannabis products of between 5 and 10 euros per gram (47).
Average prices of cannabis resin, corrected for inflation (48, fell over the period 1999-2004 in all reporting countries (49) except Germany and Spain, where prices remained stable, and Luxembourg, where a slight increase occurred. Average prices of herbal cannabis, corrected for inflation (50), of type unspecified or imported, also decreased over the same period in most of the reporting countries, but remained stable in Spain and the Netherlands and increased in Germany, Latvia, Luxembourg and Portugal. Only two countries, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, have reported on the average price of locally produced herbal cannabis, and in both cases it has declined.
Europa
Because of it's proximity to North Africa and it's relaxed laws with regard to personal possession, I'm willing to bet that cannabis doesn't cost more than 5 Euro's a gram in Italy(and any regular user is going to buy in larger quantities with it's consequent discount).
Meredith's boyfriend said that the boys usually bought the cannabis and shared it with the girls.
There were cannabis plants growing in the garden at the girls house. In October these would have been mature and the bud at full potency. Italy has an ideal climate for this hobby, I bet it was everywhere in a university town like Perugia.
Brian
I think that she had enough of what was going on in her cottage and sadly chose the wrong moment to deal with the issue...
Very sad...
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 6:23 am | #
'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, that's right I would say.
Tempers flare they do not play gently, that is why it is called temper. Temperament is another.
Warped senses of reality is a state, that people get in when instead of feeling ok and in harmony with themselves and their surroundings drawing from an own inner well trhrey instead use stimulants, drugs, alcohol and lose touch with their own goodness, they do not know how it feels to feel great about being alive through natural means.
I think it all came to a head, and again concerned stupid stuff, but that builds up, the money missing, I think that might have made the pot cook over. I don't think that Amanda wanted to be told anything, I think she'd become narcissistic. Not in tune with what others felt.
"To disprove that stance, that she is guilty, she can choose to either tell more lies and only prove more so, that's she is a pathological liar, or start telling the truth. When she tells the truth, she'll be believed. Because the strength of conviction behind it will be real and, the loose ends will all tie in together. Right now it is spaghetti junction and it's a traffic jam"
John T - If AK is a pathological liar (I think she is and agree with your posting) then I am sure her family must have some doubts in her story and alibi. I do not buy this 'we have never doubted her innocence one moment' that they quoted on the 20/20 show. Love for your daughter is one thing but facing up to reality and what she did and did not do that evening is just as important. AK will not tell the truth between now and court, she will spin some half truths and she, her family and defence teams will do everything to explain away DNA evdince and the timeline
The ONE thing they will not be able to do is to get RS to change his story (again) to say that she was with him between 9pm and 1am as that will remove his final piece of protection that he states he was not in the house when Meredith was murdered.
Brian
Anonymous | 02.18.08 - 7:35 am | #
________
Come off it Brian, you may be a gardener but I've seen Italians with their plants, do you know? you do not automatically get fantastic grass just because you have sun, if you want to debate about weed, I happen to be an expert on it, on growing it too.
Just because there may have been one or two plants outside does not mean that they were for everyone, what do you know, they were probably the boy's plants and then that doesn't mean they would say to everyone well take our plants if there were any flowers on them anyhow, because seed needas to become acclimatized and clippings from other plants. Nothing was said about it, they might have had a few scraggly weeds there with hardly anything on them.
The guy downstairs too talked about buying weed. Even if you have a couple of plants they are soon smoked up. I can't see them having grown big time there, cultivation is punished heavily in Italy.
what if RS was intimate with Mk in the past but not on the night of the murder, but came to see her when AK left?
Me...
RS has already stated that
1) MK has never been to his flat
2) MK friends would have known
3) AK and RS were together all day apart from 9-1am (according to RS)
4) There would be more DNA apart from on the bra clip that was cut off
I think you are barking up the wrong tree me.....
Besides that RS was a geek.... knife loving loner... not the greatest of catches.... apart from Amanda of course he liked him because he looked like Harry Potter.... enough said...
John
When the attack happened I think that AK wanted to totally humiliate Meredith, as her way to get even once and for all with the upstart English girl. I could see her holding the knife (DNA evidence, knife from RS flat, knows what position and where Merdith was killed), RS standing over her with his penkife holding her bra and forcing her down (DNA evidence), and Guede behind, probable intention was rape, but in a room with 2 others and the victim all under the influence that I doubt whether he could actually do the rape, hence use of fingers (DNA evidence), still humiliation / torture being induced on poor Meredith. I think that Meredith even in this situation was doing her best to resist and fight them off and that is when the initial knife would was inflicted... may not have been intended but it happended all the same... the reaction of the 3 was then to save there own skin... and not Merediths.... Guede legs it, takes the mobiles (DNA evidence from bag) and the other 2 decide that their survival and reputation is more important than any attempt in saving Meredith.
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 7:47 am | #
I think it will be either Guede or Sollecito who will talk.
Not Amanda, she has tried to be cunning al the time, accusing others, anyone, nobody is spared, that's a main indicator of the state of mind she has.
She accused Lumumba
Sollecito
The police
If Guede starts spilling beans, about her, she'll turn on him then.
But, until that time, she isn't saying anything, she has said nothing at all up until now only lies.
IdF sollecito was'nt here bvut like a gfool allowed himself to be drawn in by helping clean up, and he then decides hew must say his part, truthfully.
Though that truth will not reveal what happened in the room, once he tells how Amanda told him Rudy had done this and that and now she was going to look like she was involved because she has invited him around, then I think once that stuff starts being revealed, Amanda will be faced with lying to the bitter end or giving it up. Up until now, she has in no way given it up. There has been no turning point, the mind-set she had when Meredith was murdered she still has right now. It is going to drive her insane. She will need to be able to confide in someone.
If it was that Sollecito had done all of the bad, Amanda would have already been able to say where she was, what she did, who she was with, when and where.
Though Amanda has told weak stories like feigning that she was trying to think up how it could have all happened, and in that kind of softy patronizing way, at the same time accusing Sollecito, he also has been acting, like saying she was a pleasure seeker, divorced from reality, yet he couldn't see her being a murderess. He wanted to deflect the idea of him being guilty by pretending to be searching for answers and by playing at being ignorant of facts. He either was present and took part and knows she is guilty of murder, or he doesn't know, he only wonders now exactly what she did do. All as he knows is he is guilty too of helping and that in this mess it is going to be hard to convince anyone of his part. He still hasn't realized he is not going to walk away, that is why he is waiting, he's trying to get off, to be the guy he was, but he never will be, he made a mistake and until he faces his demons he is going nowhere.
Just one, one, starts to talk and sparks are going to fly.
Emotion. Emotions will run wild, temperaments will burst ansd exoplode, tempers will rage, in court, when all three are in one another's presence. The lawyers can keep their clients quiet now, but in court, as Knox already did in front of police at the station and in front of the judges, she is likely to freak right out, as soon as anyone says anything about her, she will have a fit. The others will also not take it lying down as the case proceeds, if it looks worst for Guede, he'lll cough it all up. The day judgement draws near, panic will set in from all sides. They have the comfort and luxury of time right now but as the reality of facing at least 21 years in prison or life imprisonment sets in they'll be working out their options, they'll all want te best deal. If they are thick as two short planks they'll lie right until the end and take the worst punishment like fools. Liars cannot keep it up forever though. Yet, they may well keep it up until it is too late. Then it's even harder, once punished, to convince anyone that you've genuinely turned over a new leaf and are fit now to be rehabilitated. The spider becomes trapped in its own web because it doesn't have a leg to stand on.
"I can't see them having grown big time there, cultivation is punished heavily in Italy".
John T | 02.18.08 - 7:48 am |
Actually Italian legislation makes a difference between detention of drugs (hashish and marijuana, "light drugs")for personal use and detention with the purpose of dealing. The first goes unpunished up to 1 gr of THC, but any quantity above is no longer considered for personal use, and may turn into a dealing charge (a felony) Growing plants is therefore a serious offense.
As for the price of hashish, it depend on where one buys it-on the streets can easily go up to 15 euro /gr, if one buys it from a "friend dealer", it costs less, but surely not less that 8-10 euros/gr.Not direct info of course but got through a knowledgable source.
John
I could not agree more. I think this prison move is good... they were getting too comfortable, nice routines going on... this is not a holiday camp after all and I think moving them will make them realise the situation they are in which is serious.
AK will continue to lie as will RS as long as their PR teams, Legal teams and family have blind faith that they are 100% innocenet no matter what they have said or done or what any of the evidence points at.
This I find hard to stomach as Merediths family stay quiet waiting for justice. I can put hand on heart and say I do not know exactly who did what that night but deep down I can also say that all 3 of them played a role in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
My money is on Guede talking first then RS talking second..
AK will not talk... and her family will continue to maintain her innocence all through the court case and the years following....and never admitting her guilt.
The only other option available for AK I think is to claim insanity... I think the case for that would be a good one....
I hope the demons that haunt them keep them awake at night.
Hiya Nicki....
"Not direct info of course but got through a knowledgable source"
Sounds like a very good source you have Nicki... ;o)
Love Wolf,
I also think the prison move might also be "strategic". I don't know about Terni prison, but Rebibbia in Rome (AK destination) doesn't enjoy Capanne "holiday resort" reputation in the Italian jail circuit. It's an old overcrowded structure unlike Capanne, and living conditions are pretty rough.Being the trio high profile,I am sure they will benefit of some extra comfort, but the move (at least to Rebibbia) should definitely make AK realize what kind of mess she has got herself in.
Love Wolf,
a pretty good one indeed
Thanks for that info Nicki.... and if it is a strategic then well timed. I am also now looking forward to the next batch of evidence that was sent aqwayto rome (70 pieces) do you know when those results are due.
I cannot see any of the 3 being released in April and that also will hit them all hard regarding the enormity of the situation, I am sure that AK and RS are being given hope and reassurances by their family and teams but I think this is false hope that once evaporated will sober them up to reality.........
Nicki,
"...should definitely make AK realize what kind of mess she has got herself in"
Spot on... at the end of the day there is only one person that she can blame for this situation.... Herself.
Don't know when the additional results are due. I keep reading how much Mignini hates leaks(he has showed it by dismissing Lalli), and since anybody working with him would have known that before it was made public,I now think that perhaps many of the leaks were coming from defence...who knows.
Nicki
I think the defence team were playing their little games.. it is what they get paid for... and much of the leaks were by them.
I think from now on the prosecution will keep everything close to their chest and will be running a much tighter ship, the jail move being step one... they are redfining the rules of engagement....
If I were the defence and any of these 3 was my client I would be worried... and apart from throwing stones at DNA and paying lots of money to so called 'experts' to tell you what size shoes you wear.... I would be worried about the prospects for my client.
Love Wolf,
I was thinking about RS asking to be interrogated by the judge back in December (prior to RG arrest in Germany?), and then refusing to speak when granted the hearing (after RG arrest and first declarations?). I don't know if timing is correct, but if it is, then his move needs much explanation.
You have a good memory Nicki, I accuse my daughter of having a memory like an elephant espcially around Christmas time!!
I think RS and AK were hoping that Guede would run and keep on running, find a new identity and never get caught.
When he WAS that must have come as a big shock to them suddenly changes of stories had to start...... the accusing of Patrick and also the fake evdince was smoke screen and they were stupid enough to believe that none of this would point back to them....
That's a very good possibility and explains RS changing his mind after RG arrest.
PS I do have a great memory, although -unfortunately-I think I must be a little older than your daughter :o).
Off to the gym,catch u later LW
Have a great workout Nicki...
My daughter is 11 going on 21......
Re Seattlite:
"Press: Depends doesn't it. If I guy is willing to put his mug on camera and take the heat for his words he has a little bit more credibility, no?
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:01 am | #"
I have to disagree here too, especially in the world we live in. People readily express their opinion on television as well as fact. An opinion is not fact.
Being "really into girls" does not necessarily imply a history of aggressiveness toward women.
I'm not saying Rudy didn't break and enter as Pinecone susggests--this presumably will come out if true--but character judgement is character judgement, whether on paper or on television. I'm interested in facts, stated under oath.
And for her sake I truly hope Amanda Knox's case for innocence is a whole lot stronger than this.
You can't have it both ways on reports and press and so on.
daniel mintz | 02.16.08 - 4:20 pm |"Doug Preston
’s input was dismissed as less than relevant, unfairly, I think."
A bit OT, but of interest: I felt a little bad for being one of the principal shouters in caps the other day (maybe I was the only one...) when Douglas Preston posted here, so I sent a note to him through his web page, apologising. He very decently has replied to me with a very nice note. I hope he can make it back here. As he said in his note: "We all want the same thing, which is justice."
-
"We all want the same thing, which is justice."
Totally agree.....
John T -
Very good points in your response to my post. We actually think very much in the same way and I am at the same place as you in all your points. The only point on which I disagree is the following:
"1/ I don't think she took a shower, at the crime scene.
a) According to what she said, she was scared, then based on that, I would imagine she wouldn't have felt relaxed about having a shower there, even if she took it in the bathroom where no blood was visible."
I feel there is evidence for a shower taking place. I also think that shower explains certain things which otherwise would be problematic to understand. Logic also suggests that a shower would have been necessary...either from contact with the victim whilst carrying out the crime...or contact with the victim trying to comfort her whilst she was dying....or contact with certain messy areas in the first stages of the 'Clean-Up'. One can also imagine one or more of the antagonists being parranoid about the prospect of traipsing through Perugia with possible visible blood on them. Those little truths that stand out amongst the lies also suggest a shower. Showers crop up 'twice' in Amanda's account of events...one being taken the night of the murder...the other in the morning. The former shower event also has another event attached so bizzare it has the ring ot truth about it. That is, RS cleaning Amanda's 'ears'...and again this is a 'double' in Amanda's accounts with her also mentioning her ears in regard to her putting her fingers in them...which may well have actually had blood on them so making RS cleaning her ears no longer strange, but indeed fully necessary. Amanda also reported seeing a puddle of bloody water in the bottom of the bath. This was most likely caused by someone who had blood on them taking a shower and also maybe certain bloody items/clothing being hosed down there. I cannot think of a reason why Amanda would make this up. Then there is at least one invisible to the naked eye bare bloody footprint in Amanda's room that showed up under luminol testing. Why would someone be walking around the murder scene barefoot and stepping right in blood? This is very hard to exlpain. Unless they didn't...but simply had a shower with the ponding area inside the bath gathering a small degree of bloodied water which would have been on their feet on getting out of the shower, perhaps stepping into flip-flops, and leaving the invisible footprint in Amanda's room whilst getting dressed/changed. If this shower took place, it would have been on the night of the murder rather then the morning after, since that's when the blood wash fresh and more likely to be on people.
Sorry...the above 'anonymous' post was me.
Just on the subject of the missing money.. this was from Telegraph in December.
..................................
Bank checks have shown that Meredith Kercher, 21, withdrew 250 (17
to pay for her rent two days before she died.
Her landlord has told police that the money, which should have been paid on Nov 1, was never received and no trace of it has been found.
Officers involved in the case have disclosed that 215 (153) was found on Amanda Knox, Meredith's American flatmate and her suspected killer, when she was searched.
The theory that Knox, 20, robbed Meredith is being considered by police after a drug pusher in Perugia told detectives that she was in debt to her pusher.
.................................
Is it just coincidence that AK had a similar amount of money, was this money also to pay her part of the rent? or had that been paid via the bank? Would it be normal for someone to be carrying that amount of money on there person?
The discussion is fascinating, but I have to point out something that you've all missed, particularly the people condemning Lalli as incompetent for having said that Meredith hadn't drunk alcohol that night. Meredith's blood alcohol was 0.43 grams/litre. According to the blood alcohol calculator, if she'd drunk a glass of wine an hour before her death, it would have been 43 grams/litre. That's 100 times higher. The finding of 0.43 grams/litre shows she didn't drink any alcohol that evening, which is what was originally reported. The level found is consistent with her having drunk alcohol the night before, which we know she did.
Michael / John T
The only thing I would like to add is that AK got back to cottage at 10.30 and did not return to Raff's place until 11.30... what was she doing in the hour.. having found the door wide open and being concerned, she sure took her time raising any alarm! Why did she not phone him would have saved her legs!
Anon - Thanks for the point about blood alcohol levels.
Anonymous | 02.18.08 - 10:42 am |"The level found is consistent with her having drunk alcohol the night before"
Thanks Anonymous, so we can take out one or two items (glasses of wine) from the "inhouse" timeline, which was starting to get crowded between the victim hanging up after talking with her mother (I'd like to see further confirmation on that) at 21.30 h. plus a few minutes, and 22.30 h. when Rudy runs out (by his own admission) and bumps into Alessandra F. in the street (by Alessandra's testimony).
Kermit
Have we any idea of what the content or time of the phone call was between Merdith and her mother?
time = period, how long was the call?
the above considerations on alcohol in blood are wrong.
0.5 (not 50!) grams/litre is the legal limit in many european countries for driving
MK probably had just one or two drinks
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 11:00 am | "Have we any idea of what the content or time of the phone call was between Merdith and her mother?"
No. I have only seen one reference to it, lost in the text of this article:
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...rdo-
amanda.html
It's actually quite significant ... if this phone call actually occurred, I'm sure the victim's mother would have been interviewed by police. Even if her mother simply said: "no, there was no mention of anyone else being there, nor was there any music or noise in the background", that would be very significant. And it would be even more significant if the victim had said "yes Mum, that's Amanda and her boyfriend watching Manga videos"!.
Kermit
That is where I was leading, if she made a reference to no being home alone, having a quiet night in, anything that is relevant and yes I am sure that is something stored away for court.
There is a also a possibility that even others were there (Guede and RS) then she may not say anything as not to worry her monther being so far away........
mother
Sorry...this 'anon' post was also me:
Traduco, Indie, Skep -
I don't think the prison moves are anything to really worry about...I 'very' much doubt any of them will be put in general population, they'll be segregated. They are high profile prisoners and that makes them targets for other prisoners. Being such high profile prisoners the ILE/italian prison authourities can't/won't risk any 'accidents' happening to them. The resulting political fallout would be far too great. They also wouldn't want them learning any new tricks from other prisoners.
Anonymous | 02.17.08 - 10:15 pm | #
Kermit,
Thanks for locating this.
According to my Italian to French to English, it says that "the last person to hear Meredith's voice before she met her killers was her mother, in England. Meredith CALLED HER MUM at 21:30 on November 1. She was calling from home (at least that is what she said), having returned from dinner at her friend Sophie's, where they watched a DVD (Nick Cassavetes' "The Notebook"). Apparently (although this remains to be confirmed), Meredith was alone at this time."
the above considerations on alcohol in blood are wrong.
Quite so.
The legal limit in the UK is 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood.
Dept. of transport - UK
and 50mg is quite common on the continent.
50mg alcohol per 100ml blood = 500mg per litre = 0.5g per litre.
If I were to have a theory, I would stick to the glass or two of wine when Meredith raided the fridge.
Brian
Pinecone-
"I see it mentioned, every so often, that Rudy could not have got into the house without Amanda's key. Has everyone forgotten that he has a history of breaking and entering? Do you know what kind of locks were on all the entry doors? A screwdriver with the end filed thin is useful for jimmying locks, and could also serve as a weapon."
I keep seeing people taking Rudy's very sparse criminal record it must be said, and turning him into some 'Master Burgler' as a result. He is on record for one attempted burglary for which he was immediately caught having 'broken' into the house via a window. He broke into a nursery to spend the night...and again was immediately caught. Let's face it, as a criminal he isn't very good. Lock picking is a skill very few burglars have, career burglars mainly, the majority are 'smash and grab'. Rudy's rap sheet far from evidences a 'career criminal' of any kind or any actual expertise in the matter. He's a complete amateur. Rudy is 'no' locksmith.
From the Telegraph of London...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher507.xml
Police chief Arturo De Felice said Miss Knox had "crumbled and confessed" under intense questioning.
"There were holes in her alibi and her mobile phone records were crucial," he said. Records showing the location of the phone helped disprove her claim to have been elsewhere at the time of the murder".
I suspect that this refers to her movements during the day as her mobile home was turned off during the crime I though?
Also from same article..
"She said Miss Kercher's door was locked so she telephoned Sollecito and then the police".
Brian | 02.18.08 - 11:22 am |
Thanks Brian, okay, we'll put a couple of glasses of wine back into the "inhouse" timeline.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.18.08 - 11:21 am | Skep, with a phone call to Mum, a couple of glasses of wine, an attack and a murder, (and a few moments of "comforting" while her attacker(s) tried to work against the universal law of entropy - ie. you can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, before they abandoned her), there's a lot which was packed into the victim's last hour.
Anon | 02.18.08 - 11:32 am |"She said Miss Kercher's door was locked so she telephoned Sollecito and then the police".
RS's "confession" statement (ie. modified statement) said that on Nov. 2 morning, Amanda woke him up when she left to go shower, then she woke him up again when she returned to his house (that's how and when he noticed she was wearing a dress).
I always wondered, in addition to showering (if she showered at the cottage in the morning), why Amanda, upon realising there had been a "break-in", didn't telephone RS (sleeping or not sleeping, their telephones had been switched on again very early in the morning).
Now according to Anon's quote, she either did really call RS (in other words, she didn't wake him up with her dress on)(that would make more sense if she suddenly realises there has been a robbery, instead of leisurely walking back to his place - and there's a phone call record in the phone company - or she is misremembering. Or they're both misremembering.
Kermit:
we'll put a couple of glasses of wine back into the "inhouse" timeline.
Strange thing is, this almost fits with Rudy's statement about the evening.
He says that whilst he was in Meredith's room, and because he didn't know where the glasses were, he drank juice straight out of the bottle when Meredith wasn't looking as she had temporarily left the room.
Brian
Kermit
Also in AK text exchange with a friend she exchanged 5 messeges and said that she was the first to find the body and phone the police....
More lies I suspect!
Kermit,
I think one glass of wine is more consistent with the BA reading, based on gender, height/weight, food intake and other parameters.
It is possible, if she got home at 21:00, that she poured herself a glass of wine right away, which gives us a little more time to work with.
But I agree, this is a lot to pack in if the witness who was almost run over is right about the time. Do we have witnesses placing Rudy at the disco at a precise time? Wouldn't he have had to run home and change his clothes before hitting the disco? In addition, Rudy's role in any clean-up effort right after the fact now looks like a lot to pack into this particular timeframe.
Brian | 02.18.08 - 11:56 am |
Brian, what you're saying is that there's 0.43 grams of truth in each litre of Rudy's alibi, and only 0.09 in the others'.
-
Skeptical Bystander | 02.18.08 - 11:59 am | Fine Skep, one "medium" sized glass... I don't know, it's not important (or maybe it is), but I don't see her barely getting in the house (after hanging out with her friends all afternoon and avoiding alcohol), closing the door, being alone, and pouring herself a glass of wine to drink alone.
I would have thought that the wine would have been with others, while things were still civilised.
I'm having real problems posting to this board for some reason.
Sorry if I am being dense here, but about the Guede DNA evidence,why have they concluded it's from his
finger(s)? I mean, DNA is DNA is DNA. If it's DNA, it could be from any part of his body, right?
Therefore, could it be that Guede indeed attempted intercourse (rape), but there was no sign of penetration because he was impotent? (sick and impotent that night).
Traduco | 02.18.08 - 12:12 pm |
If you are able to load the old thread, search backwords from the end for "DNA" and you'll find a lot of discussion about Rudy's DNA. I learned from that discussion that yes, you can distinguish between DNA from sexual fluids, from skin cells, etc.
Also, a lot of discussion about "rape" / "sexual assault" not necessarily having to be limited to a definition if "traditional" rape. (I'm not sure how Italian law distinguishes between different types of penetration - in Spain, one type of sexual assault is just as bad as another).
-
Sorry if I am being dense here, but about the Guede DNA evidence,why have they concluded it's from his
finger(s)? I mean, DNA is DNA is DNA. If it's DNA, it could be from any part of his body, right?
Traduco | 02.18.08 - 12:12 pm |
That's correct. The finding of Rudy's Dna from epithelial cells does not eliminate the possibility of penile penetration. The entire surface of the human body, and inside body cavities (mouth, nose, etc.)is covered in epithelial cells. Medical examiners would have no way of knowing that the cells they found came from a finger, toe, or penis, or any other body part. They have said only that sperm was not found, but this does not mean the epithelial cells absolutely did not come from a penis.
Kermit,
Actually, I think you're probably right about that. My husband even suggested yesterday that maybe she poured herself a shot of whiskey and I said no way can I see a 20-year old girl returning home from an early and quite tame evening spent watching The Notebook and hitting the bottle.
I even have a hard time imagining her coming in to an empty, shutting the door, and then heading for the kitchen to pour herself a glass of wine.
A social setting for the drink seems much more plausible. The problem, as we keep seeing again and again, is that we still don't know what happened. My gut tells me that others were already there when she got home and she had a drink with them. Or others arrived shortly after she did, and she had a drink with them.
Pinecone | 02.18.08 - 12:53 pm |
Thanks Pinecone. I'm on a DNA learning curve.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.18.08 - 12:57 pm |"My gut tells me that others were already there when she got home and she had a drink with them. Or others arrived shortly after she did, and she had a drink with them."
I went through many many situations in younger days of having a drink with persons who I wasn't necessarily close to (in fact they could have been quite the opposite), in university residence situations or house parties or whatever, but what the heck there they are, if they're going to whoop it up why not have a drink too.
Re: the anticipated prison transfers. Skep, I doubt the Rebibbia move was to accomodate the Knox family.
My sense is that this commute may prove to be just as long for them, as it is to travel to Perugia. If you know Paris or New York or Rome, you know that sometimes it takes just as long to travel through/around the city to a periphery area of that city as it is to travel to a distant (outside) town.
There is a Rome city bus that takes you near to Rebibbia, but then you need yet another form of transportation to take you to the prison.
Furthermore, sensing how devoted Amanda's parents are to her, I strongly doubt they would ever want their child to be transferred to this "Hell on Earth." (see my earlier post on the subject).
John T. wrote: "The prison in Perugia is new too, so those descriptions about grim, don't seem accurate."
John T, I'm puzzled why you actually DOUBT Rebibbia is such a grim place. And as for being "new", Rebibbia was built in the 1950's. It's terribly overcrowded, by all accounts, basic health care is lacking.
As for segregating Amanda from the general prison population, why would anyone assume that? In Perugia, she wasn't segregated, why should it be any different in Rome?
Here's a quote about Rebibbia from "Associazione Antigone" which is a political/cultural watchdog type group in Italy working for humane conditions within prisons.
Their report of Rebibbia includes
mention of a dreadfully underfunded facility where basic medical care can be lacking, where lice proliferate, not to mention Hepatitis C outbreaks. Dampness permeates areas of the prison, and I imagine mold. . .
For the record, prison cells are generally 12 square meters, 4-5 women in each cell that contains a sink and toilet.
From the Antigone report:
"There are internal conditions, even from the hygienic standpoint, that make "livability" there oppressive..."
"Ci sono condizioni interne, anche dal punto di vista igienico, che rendono pesanti le condizioni di vivibilit..."
http://www.associazioneantigone....o/
rebibbiaf.htm
This will be no "ROMAN HOLIDAY" for Amanda.
-Traduco
Thanks, Traduco.
I was just speculating about possible, less sinister reasons for the move, partly to counter the tendency to read the tea leaves on everything little thing that happens. It was said that Capanne was never meant to be other than a temporary holding pen for the 3.
And of course you're absolutely right. It feels much easier to take a train from Paris to Nice than to get from the center of Paris to some of the more obscure towns in Ile de France, notwithstanding the excellent regional rail system.
Frank has a good blog entry today on the Ribibbia prison, which is something of a corrective to your information. For example, he talks about a renovation that was done in 2006.
Kermit,
It's been a long time since I was 21, but I do have a hard time imagining that Meredith came home and poured herself a stiff one, alone. This scenario is more of a made for tv one, with the harried 30-something coming home from a tough day at the office and pouring herself a glass of wine as she contemplates her refrigerator or draws a bath.
Unless they have a drinking problem, young people tend to drink socially, with peers, as part of a group thing.
John T
Specks? Never said any such thing. Please do not attribute things to me I never said.
SB
If Meredith talked to her Mom that evening (?) she may have poured herself a glass of wine, to help unwind while talking to her, and get ready for bed. It doesn't exclude that others were there.
DLW,
I agree. One of many plausible, possible scenarios.
Also Im also curious if any empty glasses or dishes were found laying around. I doubt that Rudy would wash dishes before leaving. Unless Amanda washed dishes in the morning before realizing anything was wrong. That is if anybody drank anything their, which seems unlikely. Rudy, I think said he drank out of a pop bottle?
The Italian police are not quite as stupid as some people seem to think. They are also quite capable of lying to the media to achieve an arrest.
For example:
RG's fingerprints were all over the house. RG had been arrested more than once in the past for petty offences, and his prints (but probably not his DNA) would have been on record in both Perugia and Milan. It does not take long to match fingerprints, and thus they must have been looking for him from at least the afternoon of 2nd November or the morning of the 3rd. He might then have seemed a rather suitable candidate for the smash-murder-and-grab theory that the opening pages of this saga suggested. What we were at first told about a generically black man in the laundrette may possibly have been a hint of that, or it may just be a red herring.
When AK accused Lumumba, the police had every reason to bring him in, not only because of what she said but also because of the phone evidence. (Did his phone go to the baseball pitch that night or did it not? It doesn't really matter now.) BUT they would have established within minutes that PL's prints didn't match any in the house, were different from those of RGm, and also have deduced that AK was probably accusing one black man to shield another with whom she must, therefore, have had a guilty liaison.
Nevertheless it was very useful to have PL in custody. The police went out of their way to tell all the media that the case was now closed. They knew it wasn't (even if PL had been involved in some remote way, which they might well have believed) , because they had RG's fingerprints still to account for.
This sent a false signal to RG (who was reading every news bulletin he could find) that he was safe, and they hoped that he would become careless about using his facebook or contacting his friends etc, so that that they would be able to trace his whereabouts.
It also sent a false signal to AK that she was believed, hoping to spur her to other incriminating inconsistancies.
Why did AK choose to incriminate PL? That needs no deep psychology to explain. When probing her 'alibis' they would have focused on her texts/calls to PL. They may also have asked her about the 'black man' seen running away from the house. That was a connection she could use, even if involuntarily, knowing that all the time she had to distance herself from any knowledge of RG. So it was easy to tell almost the truth, in which she had only to substitute PL when she meant RG -- after all, one black man's much the same as another, especially when there are so few around in a country where one isn't running for president... And of course to distance herself from any direct involvement.
What followed was a brilliant piece of detective strategy. Of course, the extent to which the police were cynical in continuing to hold PL will only emerge later. He will, I hope, be able to claim compensation. But his bar will be famous, and he will eventually profit from, as Frank at Perugia-Shock has stated.
In any case, when the ILE top brass -- several of them -- said so repeatedlythat the case was closed with PL'ss arrest, they knew perfectly well that it wasn't. They still had RG's prints in all the important places. And before too long, they got him precisely in the way they'd planned, even if it was a rather close call.
P.S. I forgot to say that the fact that they were looking for RG before he was found got out in the most obvious way: his associates whom they had questioned talked to reporters. Sad how the media obstruct the course of the law...
DLW
Considering only 3 prints were found in the whole cottage I would imagine that then cleaning 'fairy' had been busy on kitchen and eating thing
LW
Minotaur | 02.18.08 - 2:39 pm |"when the ILE top brass -- several of them -- said so repeatedlythat the case was closed with PL'ss arrest, they knew perfectly well that it wasn't"
In support of that are the postings of our own commenter Oceania88, whose son is in Perugia, and days before Rudy's name hit the press, the ILE barged into his (the son's) shared flat, aggressively asking questions about Rudy.
DLW,
Funny, I was just thinking about the question of dishes lying around, and wondering if any crime scene photos might shed light on that. I think Rudy stated that he drank straight from a bottle, which I understood to be juice of some kind (orange juice maybe?). Would Rudy have done the dishes but left his feces in the toilet? Were the dishes done? Was there a lone wine glass in the sink or nothing at all? These are all intriguing questions.
Minotaur,
I was also thinking about the police laying a trap to lure Rudy into captivity or lull him into a false sense of security. But I felt I was being naive. You lay this out so clearly. Thanks. I remember reading, after the fact,that the police had the prints from the bedroom and when they ran them, lo and behold, it was Rudy's face that came up on the screen. The statement "case closed" has been cited again and again to support the theory of police incompetency in this case, but your argument makes perfect sense. Didn't the police even get a friend of Rudy's to have a Skype conversation with him from the police station? In that conversation, Rudy says there were other people at the cottage that night. He also says, when asked about the broken window and the clean-up, that it must have been Amanda and Raffaele, because he fled.
JohnT,
I have read your posts which are always long and descriptive. I appreciate them greatly. Here are my reasons why I believe that RS was with AK the entire time. And I realize that it may seem a bit illogical. First, both their cellphones were turned off simultaneously before the murder and then magically turned back on in the morning. Secondly, his DNA is on the brassiere of Meredith(A wash you might say because that could be part of the cover up, agreed) However, RS said he was on his computer(His alibi), however, if it is show(and it has already been reported that there was no activity until the following morning) that he was not on it, that implies that he was somewhere else because that IS his alibi. Thirdly, he missed both a telephone call from his Father as well as a text message(Father and son were tight) Now if he does not have an alibi that can be corroborated and his DNA is in the cottage, most specifically, on the clothing of the victim, then he must have been there. No person can be in two different places at the same time.
DLW
Considering only 3 prints were found in the whole cottage I would imagine that then cleaning 'fairy' had been busy on kitchen and eating thing
LW
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 2:50 pm |
Only three prints? Go back to the reports between 2 and 5 November: on the phones; on the front door, in MK's bedroom....
Laura Dinah Palomo. moon. This is my facebook http://www.facebook.com/profile....p?
id=1051940674
This is my face: http://www.facebook.com/album.ph...9&
id=1051940674
========
I am not sure that the kids in jail now had anything to do with the murder of poor Meredith Kercher, or if it was something all together more dark & evil happened in that house. I do not know.
==========
Peace love & empathy,
Laura Palomo
DLW,
From what I have read, no trace of alcohol or drugs was found in the body of Meredith Kercher from the autopsy.
I realised too late, I am sorry for thinking them to be guilty
bcpi
Im just going by the leaked autopsy report where Lalli had put a hard number of .043% BAC. I presume that may be one of the reasons why he got canned, since this info wasnt previously known by the outside world. I believe a previous report either said there was none or trace amounts. Unless this is one of those translation snafus again, or a decimal point error in this new report. Not impossible. Drugs were ruled out, period.
Sorry Minotaur
I missed the word Amanda off, there were I believe only 3 of her prints and NONE in her own bedroom....
Addendum to the above. I think its safe to assume that if alcohol was detected, it wasnt enough to affect Merediths judgment.
Minotaur | 02.18.08 - 2:39 pm |
Makes perfect sense.
Loz, take it easy.
DLW,
I'm starting to get a little confused about the alcohol issue, but if it is what I think it is, then this would be compatible with one glass of wine, consumed with a little food, by a woman of Meredith's height and weight. If she had had just a little bit more and decided to drive, she could have gotten a DUI in Italy or France if stopped.
But I am no expert. Pinecone provided a useful link on Saturday night(in this thread)that allows you to measure BAC based on consumption amounts, food, time frame, gender, etc.
SB
I think you explained the BAC issue pretty well if the .04% is correct, which I think it is. One glass of wine for Meredith, which is not a party drinker. I know the USA limit used to be .1%, and then dropped to .08%. Italy seems to have a low standard (.05) compared to the USA, if the penalties are similar. This seems to be what I call alcohol creep downwards for driving purposes. Im social drinker, and I dont believe I ever go above .05, and I dont feel any different.
But if she did consume even 1 glass at the flat, I think it is a legitimate reason to suspect that there was a small gathering there in the evening, not necessarily good news for AK/RS, and where did the alcohol come from. Also the time frame may need adjusted slightly. Im not quit sure if the prosecutors wanted to make their suspicions known yet.
Skep
I wouldn't get too wound up about the exact figures.
Street word has it that in the UK, most people can drink 2 glasses of wine, 2 pints of ordinary strength beer or 2 standard measure double spirits before they risk exceeding the driving limit of 80mg.(I'm not suggesting that you try it but I can tell you from a personal experience some years ago - I was below 80mg on two pints of beer).
The previous evening Merediith had been Halloween partying around the bars of Perugia with her friends in what was probably a pretty late night affair.
She may well have had some residual alcohol in her system and when she left for home from Robyn's place before 9.00pm she explained that she was tired.
A glass of wine was probably all she needed to bring her up to 43mg and does not an alcoholic make. My daughter (now 26) has long been able to drink one glass of wine without my noticing much effect.
Rather than dwell on quantity, I am wondering whether she was on her own or did she have that drink in company.
Thanks Brian and DLW,
The only reason I was confused is that we seemed to have established what the reading meant and then it was called into question by u_gene. Plus, in the original Italian it said grams and not miligrams. Anyway, for now it appears that a moderate amount of alcohol was consumed after Meredith returned home on November 1. I had one glass on Saturday night with a little food and tested myself on Pinecone's link, and I was at 43 on the nose. (However, I was not on my nose in the least).
Anyway, I don't wish to imply anything about the victim's drinking. This seems like a perfectly normal thing to have done. Kermit and I were speculating about whether she did this alone or in the company of others. As you say Brian, that is the real issue.
Specks? Never said any such thing. Please do not attribute things to me I never said.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 1:39 pm
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^666 if 6 was 9
Okay, don't get your knickers in a twist, I was testing you, you sound like someone I know.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 1:39 pm
But I hope you find your elephant turd lumps of DNA soon
Traduco | 02.18.08 - 1:07 pm |
I meant that the Perugian prison isn't grim, the others I know nothing about.
But, Amanda has been kept apart you know. I've read about it, for her safety. They are vulnerable prisoners you know and the state has the duty to protect them, they are involved in not only murder but a sex crime, possibly, this means that many prisoners don not like that, and may hurt any one of them if they were put on a wing where everyone associates, where Amanda has been, she does not assovciate with everyone. For the reason of her safety.
So, then, the Rome prison has private pool in the cell, caviar in an automatic dispenser, manicurist pops over, choice of Thai or Indian massage, French or Italian cuisine, I may have to go and get some parkig offences down there.
Bell ringing: Sauna time folks
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 3:19 pm
Hi BPCL, thanks.
No, I don't think it's illogical what you think.
As far as I heard, there hasn't been a definite conclusion about whether his computer was used or not, they're working on all computers. I suppose part or all of what is found out may be revealed before court time.
Your reasoning why you see Raffaele as having been present, together at the murder scene:
1/ cellphones turned off and on at same time
2/ DNA Sollecito on Meredith's bra
3/ Sollecito stated he had been on computer
4/ He said he had a call from dad but though the call had come in he had not taken it
5/ Text message he also didn't respond to
Based on that, 5 points, I can agree, it looks suspiciously as though he hasn't been straight-up either, he could have been at home as he said, if the things he said had turned out to fit, but, similarly to Amanda, his tales do not meet the mark either.
If he then was there with Amanda, it makes it slightly weirder, how Guede got into doing what he did to Meredith.
Put it this way BP, if Guede had forced Meredith and he was on his way to raping her, I think she definitely would have resisted hard, if he had not had a knife. It's the knife that must have caused her, to have no signs of Guede violating her. There being no signs of force, it's the knife that terrified her, don't you think too? I do.
I know, if it was me, I would be very scared if someone, in anger, started waving a knife around at me, I'd be very cautious about making any false moves, it's just so not a joke.
I mean, even on the street if someone waved a knife about, it's different to them just using punching or kicking because you already know death is close by, real close, with a knife in the action, you'd be scared to have it used on you, you back off and you don't push anything.
If the other two were not involved but there, then I believe they would be free now, by their own words, but because something else has gone on, they aren't able to produce what is needed for them to walk away.
If they had been there but not involved then they'd have told all, right away, about Guede. Guede, who was definitely right there in Meredith's room.
Somehow, I think the place turns into mayhem, madness and mayhem, in that way, it saw Guede violating Meredith but I cannot see him managing that, and holding a knife to Meredith and getting her clothes off too.
That points to him having had help, somehow, it also means, the help he had, was with the knife, and that way, those with the knife didn't touch Meredith.
I reckon, the cleaning up process, was to hide the evidence of three of them having been in close proximity to one another, and not only that, but that without the cleaning, there'd have been fresh traces of everything and everyone, not just from the 3 of them, but from Meredith too. Thus from the four of them together. All outside Meredith's room.
There can't be many other reasons why they'd have needed to clean the rest of the house.
They may have been debating whether to continue cleaning and then to clean up Meredith's room.
But I don't think so. For the reason of them thinking there would be hardly anything of them in Meredith's room. If they had not known or thought this and based it on their not having hardly been in her room, then there would have been little point in cleaning all the rest.
The reason Amanda wanted and needed her room cleaned, I reckon would be because otherwise Guede's trail of evidence would have led right to there, to the kitchen too. She didn't bother cleaning that toilet/bathroom because that wasn't her room, and, as we've seen, how she tried to frame Patrick up, and even said stuff about Sollecito, she would then have purposely left the evidence from Guede to lead away from herself. She had imagined there'd have been no way he'd have got caught. Without him getting caught, their alibis would have been nice and snug. Better than now anyway. The case is pretty much blown. Think how it is for the police to hear her saying they hit her, when they did not, to them it means, shit look at this, she's even saying that.In that way, as far as that goes, her doing those things, will make them know, that way, that they have the right people in custody.
Amanda and Sollecito didn't bank on Guede being a registered crook already, having had his fingerprints taken.
If the police had not had his prints, it'd have looked good for them, if Amanda had not told the bull about Sollecito too, and, if they'd have had more time to coordinate their alibis, they might have had a chance, but, even then, it's just all too much. Sollecito's DNA would have still been found on Meredith's bra. Amanda's undried blood would still have been found. The madness of there not being hardly a fingerprint of Amanda in her entire place, all of it would still have pointed to guilt.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 3:19 pm
It could mean that a whole lot happened outside Meredith's room before it got wicked, and washed in blood. Could mean that nearly all of it took place outside Meredith's room and then the final stuff happened fast, inside her room.
The part with the knife, just as Clint Van Zandt said, could have happened in a flash, a)threat, then b)infliction, and c)death.
That way, it is possible for Amanda and Raffaele to have not left traces in Meredith's room.
Whilst Guede had been all over Meredith physically, one of the other two, may have subdued her, by threatening her with the knife.
It may be that one of them went in that flash berserk and the knife did what it did and that is when Guede stopped.
Later when he was long gone, Sollecito and Amanda may have worked out that the way things looked, it didn't look like a stranger had come in and it didn't look enough like a rape, so Raffaele cut of Meredith's bra. I see no logic behind a rapist cutting off a bra when the victim is not just a rape victim but is in the process of dying right in front of you. So that cutting off of the bra, to me at least, can only mean, it was part of a cover-up to make things look like a burglar, an outsider who had raped Meredith.
If that is not so, it means that one of the three or more, is even worse than anyone imagined and got kicks in a sexual way, even from a dying person. Necrophiliacs have this, some of them.
I do not think that about these three, so I see that bra and the not taking it off, and it being cut off instead, after it is already absolutely drenched in blood, having just one purpose, and that is to deceive, and mislead.
I think the bra might have been cut off when Meredith was already dead, even the next morning.
I think Amanda and Sollecito, could have covered Meredith up the next morning, not right when the crime had happened, because they'd have been in a state of utter madness. But when they cleaned up, who knows, they may have had rubber gloves on, and only did what they felt they had to in that room and got out, locking it up as well. It's said it's a female thing to do, cover up a body, but they may have done it for the selfish reason of not wanting to have to see her, I think the latter.
It may be that it all happened real fast, and it can also be the case that Sollecito was hardly in Meredith's room. It still could be that Amanda was the one who was angry and who knifed Meredith and that Sollecito assisted in the cover-up.
You see, based on what she has already demonstrated as to how low she is willing to swoop down to, then if she had not great guilt, and it had been Sollecito who stabbed, and she knew that, she'd have told on him by now. I think if he didn't stab Meredith to death, he'd love to tell but he knows he can't because then he is sunk too, even though he'd have been a good boy and out of the three finally talked sense and owned up. He still would not be walking off and driving his nice car and shit, he just knows what he's gone and done.
And his dad, is coercing him, into not owning up, because dad doesn't want to ever believe that about his son. His dad, was not a bad man, it is not just Raffaele then who is going down but the entire family, dad can't say proudly, my son, the computer genius, the proud dad, just like he is still trying to do now, be proud. There's a lot of pride at stake and that stands in the way of truth. Status quo, prestige, self-confidence, achievement, wealth, good name, ego, pride, success, all main players here. Raffaela in that way is like Mr Universe carrying the world now, on his shoulders, his dad's world and the rest of the family's name, his sister son-of-a-gun, she's a Carabineiri, a military police woman, she will not be the lowest of rank either.
This is just possibilities because on the other hand, I think Sollecito is a real weirdo, I saw a picture of him, he has glaring eyes (not a picture seen often) like some kind of raving lunatic. He may be better at the art of deception than Amanda is.
He blames Amanda right, and not just he blames her, but daddy does too, yet, to me, he looks like a real nerd, just following Amanda about and he looks like he was having plenty of fun. In that light they are equally mean to one another now.
He is not a simple mind though, he's not the guy with the lowest grades at school, so, he may just be more collected and devious than Amanda.
One thing he has done that is sensible, is keep his cake hole shut, more you say, more someone has to work on.
"I can't see them having grown big time there, cultivation is punished heavily in Italy".
John T | 02.18.08 - 7:48 am |
Actually Italian legislation makes a difference between detention of drugs (hashish and marijuana, "light drugs")for personal use and detention with the purpose of dealing. The first goes unpunished up to 1 gr of THC, but any quantity above is no longer considered for personal use, and may turn into a dealing charge (a felony) Growing plants is therefore a serious offense.
As for the price of hashish, it depend on where one buys it-on the streets can easily go up to 15 euro /gr, if one buys it from a "friend dealer", it costs less, but surely not less that 8-10 euros/gr.Not direct info of course but got through a knowledgable source.
nicki | 02.18.08 - 8:30 am |
Oops. How illegal is illegal?
Shop Owner is Matteo Filla, VAT IT02942940962, CP 16, 38062 Arco (TN), Italy
Street word has it that in the UK, most people can drink 2 glasses of wine, 2 pints of ordinary strength beer or 2 standard measure double spirits before they risk exceeding the driving limit of 80mg.---Brian
Oof! That would put me under the table. The legal limit is a good guage, but individual responses to that level of alcohol are also important. I guess we have no way of knowing the effect that amount of alcohol would have on MK, but it not only suggest possibilities already discussed on whether or not she was drinking with others, but also possibilities on how the drinking might have affected her interaction with them.
Sparrow | 02.18.08 - 10:54 pm |"most people can drink 2 glasses of wine, 2 pints of ordinary strength beer or 2 standard measure double spirits before they risk exceeding the driving limit of 80mg.---Brian
...
Oof! That would put me under the table."
Sparrow, I hope you weren't thinking that Brian was saying all of that together, just one of the pairs!
-
Were there any reports on how much weed was found in the boys flat in the lower level of the cottage?
No Kermit, but now that you mention it, double oof! I'm such a lightweight, even one of the pairs would do that. It's quite an economical condition.
JohnT,
Okay, good analysis is all I can say.
John T et al...
"Amanda and Sollecito didn't bank on Guede being a registered crook already, having had his fingerprints taken".
This is spot on, like the mobiles being found they would have been hopeing and praying that Guede was never found.... safe and snug they would have been apart from they were not expereinced criminals, they thought they were clever... I am pleased to say that they are not (look at the alibis and lies) which will be there undoing.
Regarding RS being a bit of a nerd, did I also read somewhere that he was on medicince also for some disorder??
Has anyone got a link to that. Also taking drugs and alcohol with any medication (was it anti depressent) is not normally recommended... just a thought... also may explain the closeness of his father watching over him...
JohnT,
Just some food for thought. Both AK and RS have said that they did not kill Meredith Kercher; and we know that should be taken with a grain of salt. RS on the other hand, has never said in any of his statements that, that he did not kill Meredith Kercher. Sometimes, silence speaks volumes. What say you on this matter?
Anon was me.. sorry
John T... Regrading your exchanges with Seattliete I also felt that she may be someone that I known on the blogsphere too by the choice or words and tone.... ;o)
bpcl....
Good point.... I also suspect that these buggers may even pass a lie detector test due to the number of 'half' thruths they have said in the multitude of versions... I actually think that even though they were all there.. they blame each other for what happended and will not accept any accountability.... AK probably blames Meredith for it all....
I think at this stage.. they have dug their won pit and all 3 are EQUALLY accountable..... they had a chance to come clean and not lie.. they did not choose that option....
There only hope is to talk now....
abdar | 02.19.08 - 2:16 am | "Were there any reports on how much weed was found in the boys flat in the lower level of the cottage?"
I have seen very little on they boys' flat. I was wanting to do a floorplan, but have little (or nothing) to go on, apart from exterior observations.
Also, the business about "a garden" in general, and marijuana plants specifically, I don't have a feel for how many plants. My impression, as someone said above, is probably that they didn't exactly have a plantation or anything.
We've commented above that the victim's boyfriend has declared that he bought marijuana in the main square, which was just a few minutes away. Also, that sort of sales (I assume) would not be "wholesale", but piecemeal, little by little, following one's use. So, while there may have been weed down there, I don't think it would have been much.
That said (and I haven't thought about this before), in addition to whatever other possible reason for which the downstairs flat was broken into (eg. trying to associate the victim's boyfriend or his housemates with the crime ....), in addition there could be an intention to walk off with some weed (even if it was a small quantity).
... If any weed was actually there. I haven't read any specific reports to that regard. Although I don't suppose that the boys would file a police report for stolen marijuana if that happened.
-
Love Wolf,
I admire your thoughts about the case. Meredith Kercher has some really great people on this blog like you, working for her. I could be wrong and this is not meant to show any disrespect, but I do not believe any of the three people currently in custody for this vicious crime are capable of telling the truth. And you can see ample evidence of this in the kaleidoscope of there public statements.
It will be rather, their lack of corroborative alibis and the strength of the silent, crime scene evidence that will prove where all three were that fateful night when each of them decided to let narcissism control their destinies.
Bpcl..
Feelings are mutual.. it is great catching up on the posting overnight from my office and I am never dissapointed....
The word kaleidoscope is a good one, as what the 3 have created they have now started to drag their families and friends into the same spinning and mixing colours...
Not only do I believe that they are all guilty I also believe that they will happily destroy the reputations of their families and friends if it gives them even a glimmer of hope for murdering Meredith.
I have no doubts in this case.
Only grey bits are the timelines and also who did what both pre, during and cleaning.
The Italian police I have faith in.
I actually have faith in Guede being the one that breaks the 'code'
He has no direct family, no close loved ones, no one singing his praises about what a wonderful son/daughter he is...
I think (and hope) that he sees the light especially if it was not him holding the knife during the assault....
His team are VERY quiet and I would not be surprised if things are going on behind the scenes and this may come as a very big shock to the RS and AK camps...... and would destroy their 'spinning' straightaway.
my 2 cents on the weed issue
you don't need to be a genius to grow quality cannabis from decent seeds (legally available everywhere in italy) - a single outdoor plant can easily yield 100+ grams, more than 1k euros - end of october is usual time for harvest ...and november 1st best time to steel drying, unattended weed.
I would not be surprised if RG, warned by AK about recent harvest and empty flat, went to the cottage just for that, than MK arrived ...
u_gene
AK did not know Guede... her words... so your suggestion is a non starter.
No if she told the truth and said that she did know Guede your suggestion may have substance...
u_gene | 02.19.08 - 6:05 am |
I don't really agree with that theory as it doesn't justify the cat's blood on the wall downstairs (it wasn't a Dobercat, or anything - that said, what does explain the cat's blood, if it's true?), nor - more importantly - explain the noise / shouting / screaming heard by different neighbours into the night (when Rudy was out of there by 22.30 h, to clean up and go to the Domus discotheque). Nor the partial undressing of the victim (unless if Rudy gets sexually excited when girls interrupt him in the middle of petty thefts). And the rock through the window from the inside ...
In any case, there's another theory for the stack. What this theory implies is Amanda knowing Rudy.
Kermit | 02.19.08 - 6:36 am |
"Rudy was out of there by 22.30 h, to clean up" ...
I mean ==> to clean himself up, for the disco
I do not see the "clean up & cover up" in both flats *after* the murder being incompatible with Rudy (or someone else) breaking into the boy's flat *before* the murder
Okay, u_gene, I understand, you're separating the two "sessions" in two individual moments.
(But then the clean-up / noise team needs a motivational event to go over and find the terrible deeds that were done, freak-out, clean-up, smear cats blood or catsup, etc.)
I don't control the smileys enough to know if there's one for contemplative irony. Sorry if my comment seemed negative ... theft has been and still is one of the possible criminal motivations for the Giallo - if it wasn't just stoned, clumsy kids who screwed up in a practical joke gone bad (which doesn't make the victim's death any less murder).
... if we have looked at a measly 250 as motivation for killing someone, then certainly any other item of value - including marijuana - lying around the house upstairs or downstairs, would fit into that type of motivation.
For my ten pence worth or even Euro 250 worth I think that the weed had nothing to do with the crime apart from the fact that the accsed had been smoking weed and were drunk....
This was a group act both the crime and poor attempt at clean up and staging the fact that a break in had occured when quite clearly the culprits walked in through the front door and left through the front door.
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 7:13 am | "This was a group act"
I tend to think that way as well. The only thing which we're missing (which is a lot, everything ...) is detailed, scientific / technical evidence.
And with that evidence, going in the direction of one aspect of what u_gene was saying (tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth), is that there are different moments in the Giallo, different crimes, and possibly different persons with different levels of 1) direct criminal involvement, 2) enabling involvement (which isn't necessarily criminal unless if there was pre-meditation), and 3) knowledge of each moment/crime.
Kermit, yes, that's my point (but no "contemplative irony" on my side and no smileys either- just excessive and wrong use of brackets!).
My problem is that I do not understand if the break-in downstairs (in the boys flat) actually occurred or not.
If this has been ruled out, the "weed theory" is nonsense. Otherwise, this could be certainly not the motivation for the murder, but maybe the reason RG went to the cottage in the first place.
u_gene | 02.19.08 - 8:05 am | "I do not understand if the break-in downstairs (in the boys flat) actually occurred or not."
There's Italian TV news reports from the time of the crime which show ILE clearing broken glass from the entrance door to the boys' flat. ((strange, as to get to the door with glass, you have to open an iron barred door, which doesn't appear damaged - ie. I thought the lower flat was accessed with keys))
-----------------
Change of subject:
When RS's DNA was found on the victim's bra clasp, his father said:
"Mio figlio nella stanza del delitto non c'era"
("my son wasn't there in the room of the crime")
http://www.voceditalia.it/artico...ele%
20Sollecito
http://tinyurl.com/2bshfz
Weeks earlier, when he first visited his son in jail Dr. S. said:
"Me lo ha detto anche stamattina: papa', io in quella stanza non ci sono stato. Quella notte io ero a casa mia."
("He told me this morning: Papa, I wasn't in that room. That night I was at my house.")
http://www.padovanews.it/content...ent/view/21836/
I know you have to be careful about possibly interpreting quotes out of context, but it's strange that on more that one occasion, Dr. S./RS put emphasis on the victim's room and RS not being in it. It would be more natural to say "the house". Is that a twisted message where he's not denying presence at some point in the cottage on that night?
Also, him being at home on the night of the crime can be interpreted in different ways: home to sleep, home to start downloading but not necessarily for a jaunt down to girlfriend's place ... etc.
-
Kermit et al...
Do you think that the prosecution would be sitting on some evidence 'time bombs' i.e. phone records, CCTV, they have hinted at this but not produced it yet. Perhaps it does not exist perhaps it does, mayble this is all part of the game to unhinge the defendants to try and get one to break the code.
I actually have faith in Guede being the one that breaks the 'code'
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 4:05 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's what I have been thinking.
About the stillness too, like you said.
Because he is the one who could be blamed for all, at the point it becomes clear that the case is that he will be taking the blame for all, he'd not accept it then as he'd have nothing to lose by defending anyone else anymore, and everything to gain by starting to tell the truth.
If a defendant is guilty but does not reveal that to his/her lawyer, then the lawyer can only take steps according to what is known of his defendant, defending based on believing that the client is innocent because of the client having stated innocence.
If the defendant was to tell the lawyer, I did it, I did this I did that, I am in fact guilty. The lawyer, for reasons of ethics, which they are sworn to uphold, cannot pretend not to know. Sometimes a lawyer though sensing that the person being defended is guilty will not want to be told about it by the client, as soon as the lawyer is told, the lawyer cannot proceed to defend when being aware that the defendant is guilty. If it ever became known that a defendant had revealed the truth and the lawyer had kept it a secret the lawyer would be struck off.
That's why, Guede too, has admitted nothing to his lawyers. If later, in court, the lawyer tells him, "Hey Rudy, it looks bad for you, do you realize they are going to convict you alone, for the lot?"
That will be the moment, Rudy Guede will, in all probability, decide to help himself. Reveal facts to his lawyers. He can help himself -even if he was the killer but was not acting alone - by telling what was what.
I had promised Kermit that I would comment on this aspect when he released the powerpoint, having as soon as looking at it realised that it was most important. I am referring tp Powerpoint Gallo-Floorplan-Updated-Pt0a...the powerpoint that draws attention to the lamps.
The positioning of these lamps convinces me of several things. The lamp from AK's room is on the floor by the head of Meredith's bed whilst the other (I presume the lamp is Meredith's) is at the foot of the bed behind the door in the powerpoint shot.
What at first glance the picture reminds me of, is someone braking a bracelet/necklace and the bits going everywhere or dropping a contact lense...and having to scan every square inch of the ground under direct light to find it. This is just a thought that came into my mind.
What these lamps do for me is disolve any idea of this being carriied out by a single 'lone wolf' individual. If they were placed there 'during' the assault...we would have to imagine our 'lone wolf' saying to Meredith "We need some more light...just sit there like a good girl and I'll be right back." As if a no longer restrained Meredith would have...not a chance. If they were placed during the attack someone would have had to have voiced the desire for light whilst someone 'else' then obliged and went to get it and put them both in place.
Otherwise, the lamps were put in place only for the 'Clean-Up'. Their light being very close and directly onto the floor would have been ideal for catching small traces of things to be cleaned up that may have otherwise have been missed. However, the evidence and timelines in regard to Rudy give us a picture of him getting out of that house rather quickly, not stopping to set up lights and make a nose to floor examination of the floor for micro-traces. This in any case speaks of some one with a completely different mind to Guede...someone concious of forensic evidence and its importance. Guede on the other hand hardly seemed to care...leaving forensics everywhere and of the most obvious kind. I cannot imagine Guede doing this and not then flushing the toilet fo9r example, or taking the pillow case that was simply covered with his prints. Guede's forensic evidence was obvious and required no lamps. That left someone else....someone who had the time, the inclination and most of all the need. It also leaves me to ask...what was there before, but is not there now as a result of that nose to floor clean-up?
Great obervation Michael and the lamps are another of a long list of evidence that points to clean up not only in MK's room,... but also..
1) AK Room
2) RS flat
I think that the clean (and tidy up of the clean up if you know what I mean)had not been concluded... and the morning following the timely arrival of the Postale Police changed the gameplan.... Alibis had ot been honed... appropriate telephone call had not been made..... etc etc
John T - I have a little faith in Guede doing the decent thing in this case.... Did you see how his defence team reacted when RS Team said the shoe print came from a Guede shoe... the reaction and intention was immediate... if you throw stones at Guede he will lob great big bloody bolders straight back if you are not careful... since then there has been a period of quiet from all camps I suspect until 1st April now.....
Go on Guede... tell us what happended!
Kermit et al...
Do you think that the prosecution would be sitting on some evidence 'time bombs' i.e. phone records, CCTV, they have hinted at this but not produced it yet. Perhaps it does not exist perhaps it does, mayble this is all part of the game to unhinge the defendants to try and get one to break the code.
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 8:59 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The prosecutor has been angry about leaks.
Evidence only has to be revealed once the suspects are charged.
Anything released officially, is part of showing a certain transparency this to mirror and meet the standards of the adversarial system brought in to force in Italy, the inquisitorial system saw total power in the hands of the state. Nothing used to be revealed, everything was done in secrecy. It was chillingly scary for Italians. Because the old system was used so long, old habits may die hard. Still, official releases have shown that there are reasons for keeping the defendants in prison and revealed what the various teams are doing, revealed that forensics are doing this, other units that, but the details, do not have to be released.
They are only going to reveal what they have to in order to satisfy the idea of transparency and validate the reasons for the refusal to release the suspects.
Once they are charged the witnesses registered for the oprosecution will be under obligation to answer any cross-examninations from defence teams, and all evidence asked for must be provided, unless it would injure the case for the prosecution, but he judges would have to decide on that question.
There is no obligation to reveal anything now but the fashhion is to allow openness, yet, not at the cost of the case and off getting the guilty culprits the punishments they deserve.
The prosecutions team may have information that could come into play if one of the three state a certain thing, that way, they catch themselves out if the information the prosecutor has refutes what is said.
I had promised Kermit that I would comment on this aspect when he released the powerpoint, having as soon as looking at it realised that it was most important. I am referring tp Powerpoint Gallo-Floorplan-Updated-Pt0a...the powerpoint that draws attention to the lamps.
The positioning of these lamps convinces me of several things. The lamp from AK's room is on the floor by the head of Meredith's bed whilst the other (I presume the lamp is Meredith's) is at the foot of the bed behind the door in the powerpoint shot.
What at first glance the picture reminds me of, is someone braking a bracelet/necklace and the bits going everywhere or dropping a contact lense...and having to scan every square inch of the ground under direct light to find it. This is just a thought that came into my mind.
What these lamps do for me is disolve any idea of this being carriied out by a single 'lone wolf' individual. If they were placed there 'during' the assault...we would have to imagine our 'lone wolf' saying to Meredith "We need some more light...just sit there like a good girl and I'll be right back." As if a no longer restrained Meredith would have...not a chance. If they were placed during the attack someone would have had to have voiced the desire for light whilst someone 'else' then obliged and went to get it and put them both in place.
Otherwise, the lamps were put in place only for the 'Clean-Up'. Their light being very close and directly onto the floor would have been ideal for catching small traces of things to be cleaned up that may have otherwise have been missed. However, the evidence and timelines in regard to Rudy give us a picture of him getting out of that house rather quickly, not stopping to set up lights and make a nose to floor examination of the floor for micro-traces. This in any case speaks of some one with a completely different mind to Guede...someone concious of forensic evidence and its importance. Guede on the other hand hardly seemed to care...leaving forensics everywhere and of the most obvious kind. I cannot imagine Guede doing this and not then flushing the toilet fo9r example, or taking the pillow case that was simply covered with his prints. Guede's forensic evidence was obvious and required no lamps. That left someone else....someone who had the time, the inclination and most of all the need. It also leaves me to ask...what was there before, but is not there now as a result of that nose to floor clean-up?
Each day and night... AK and RS must be worried senseless that Guede tals.. it is the one thing that no matter how much is spent on the PR machine, legal experts that they cannot predict... it is like a ticking timebomb.... if Guede reaches a point where looks like he is taking the full flak for this then there is no way he will accept that....
u_gene: ref. evidence of breakin in the boys' flat, here's an Italian TV news video from Nov.2 evening.
At 30" and more at 1'00" you can see the ILE at the boys' flat door. In earlier viewings (weeks ago) I thought I saw ILE removing broken glass at 1'00". Now I'm not so sure, maybe they are just measuring an intact window frame in the door.
So, it's not clear how the boys' flat was entered: with keys or breaking in.
By the way, I believe that's Mignini at 55", with the barbeque in the background, on the boys' level.
http://video.centrodiascolto.it/...ideo/
209002.wmv
-----------------------------
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 8:59 am |
LW, given the stakes involved for all (much to win and much to lose, in all senses), I'm sure that Bobby Fisher, Boris Spassky, Karpov and Kasparov are all team advisors, and that there's much in the way of evidence and manoeuvres yet to be seen.
-
Thanks Kermit
My point that I am making badly is...
1) Ak and RS left his evidence at the scene despite them undertaking the cleaning duty
2) Ak even point at some of the evidence to anyone that wanted to listen 'poo in loo'
3) RS and his father stated when Guede captured that they 'have the real killer'
4) RS experts stating that it was Guede print not RS
They have a problem where AK and RS teams want Guede to take the full blame for everything (even cleaning I suspect).... and sadly the truth is not that simple and if AK and RS were there and it was not the act of a lone wolf... then I think the lone wolf will bite back!
and whilst this is all happening.. AK and RS are denying all knowledge of even knowing Guede........
Michael (UK) | 02.19.08 - 10:08 am |"What at first glance the picture reminds me of, is someone braking a bracelet/necklace and the bits going everywhere or dropping a contact lense"
Thanks Michael. I felt that two lamps on the floor was strange. It would be normal for the victim to have one by the head of her bed, but on the set of drawers/nighttable, not on the floor. And two on the floor?
I have no idea about DNA, bleach, etc. but I understand that bleaching shows up under flourescent lamps (???). The lamp behind the door: does it appear that it would have a "normal" incandescent bulb, or halogen, or flourescent ???. IE, I'm suggesting that maybe that lamp, in addition to being used to search for "contact lenses" (!!) (visual search), may have a bulb which could be useful for identifying forensic related material.
BTW, I just checked back at the Updated Floorplan, and Amanda's room seems to no longer have a reading lamp. No reading Harry Potter in bed.
-
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 10:20 am |"4) RS experts stating that it was Guede print not RS"
That little scuffle was most curious. All the RS team had to say was: RS uses a different model (not size) of Nike, so it can't be him.
Instead, they take it upon themselves to fulfill a prosecutorial (?) role by pointing a finger at RHG. The pointing was short lived as RHG's lawyers rapidly clarified that RHG would have had trouble squeezing his foot into that sized shoe.
I don't know much about criminal law etiquette amongst defence teams and lawyers, but I think that RS's smiling team crossed an invisible line there. They should just keep to defending their boy. Did they do it because of nerves? Beats me.
-
I think the 'scuffle' redefined some of the ground rules going forward.... and I will be surprised if there is a repeat as they know now it will get thrown back straight back at em!
Kermit -
As for flourescent bulbs I have no idea...I'm don't know how we could find out for sure.
One thing I feel I do know...Meredith didn't do this...I can think of no reason why Meredith would have placed the lamps so. Moreover, a tidy girl such as she would have put them back after 'whatever' she was doing...especially as one was plain in the way with the power cord for it having to go out undernerneath the door to the power socket and one didn't belong to her (being Amanda's).
Therefore, for me, the lamps were part of the clean-up....and the fact that they were left in place after says to me 'Hurry'.
Love Wolf wrote:
"Regarding RS being a bit of a nerd, did I also read somewhere that he was on medicince also for some disorder??
Has anyone got a link to that. Also taking drugs and alcohol with any medication (was it anti depressent) is not normally recommended... just a thought... also may explain the closeness of his father watching over him..."
**********************************
Love Wolf:
First, let me comment that your this new moniker of yours continues to make me laugh! I love it--it's just priceless.
As for RS and medication. I don't recall reading specifically about that. I DO seem to remember him suffering from panic attacks and that smoking pot seemed to help relieve this condition. Or, so he thought it did.
AND, as you write, if he were on some psychotropic medicine combined with whatever other substances he was using, who knows the behavioral outcome, given the possibility of drug potentiation (Def. of Potentiation: "When a combination of drugs produces effects that are greater than the additive sum of the effect of each drug." --i.e. 1+ 1 =3 or 5 or even more....)
My armchair psychoanalysis of Raffaele would have to include the impact of the death of his mother, just two short years ago.
I have seen no mention of the *CAUSE* of her death, but I have wondered about this. He also lost his beloved grandmother shortly after his mother's premature death.
As for his mother's cause of death one might assume *cancer* (or is that just me, because of the inordinate number of people I've lost to this killer. ;-(() But, it might have been something sudden; an accident?.....I certainly hope we can rule out a HOMICIDE :-(( Wouldn't THAT be a chilling, grim discovery!
But, no matter. The fall-out of this immense loss and the trauma of living through a loved one's fatal illness, especially difficult at his young age lingers on for survivors, long after the actual event. If grief is not properly "attended to", it can account for a host of problems of the psyche.
I also have read of at least one study that indicates physicians as a group have the greatest fear/inability to cope with/ death.
This may account for physicians entering the field of medicine in the first place, to want to "defeat death"
The whole focus of their profession is to heal, to fight AGAINST the enemy, death.
Death, at some level is a sign of professional failure.
And here is Raffaele's physician father, the urologist.
How soon after Raffaele's mother's death did he remarry? Less than two years, we know that. He was presumably romantically involved with wife #2 much earlier than that.
Imagine the impact of the death of two important maternal figures in Raffaele's life. And then his father's remarriage, all while he was away from home.
This armchair analyst (moi!)feels that there is a lot of unprocessed grief, perhaps understandable anger, confusion, abandonment, resentment of the new replacement "mother."
The father's frequent calling/contact with Raffaele may be a relatively recent phenomenon. I suspect it began to be more frequent and steady AFTER the mother's death. And may have been in response to the father's concern about Raffaele's change/response/lack of response to these two major losses. And his son's expressed or unexpressed anger at his Dad for "replacing" his mother.
And then there is the matter of his sister, a Carabiniere. . . I'd love to continue with this riveting armchair psychoanalysis and speculative profiling of RS, but I see that my 3:00 appointment has arrived....
-Traduco
Michael (UK) | 02.19.08 - 11:04 am |"the fact that they were left in place after says to me 'Hurry'."
The Postal Police weren't investigating anything when they arrived at Via Pergola 7 on Nov. 2 morning. ... Even if the gate at the street were open, they would be obliged to call the intercom/ringer, and wait for someone to reply. The door to the house is a stroll down the ramp and across the parking area. I can't imagine AK and RS just standing by their door (nor just standing at the gate to the street, nor in the parking area, nor anywhere else outside) waiting for something to happen.
I imagine that the Postal Police called on the interphone from the street (TV videos clearly show 2 such interphones by the street gate: one for the upper flat, and one for the lower flat), AK would have lifted the interphone, asked who it was, buzzed the gate open (if it wasn't already open), and the Postal Police would have strolled in, with no hurry.
That would have given a maximum of maybe a minute or not even that, to do an emergency shutdown of any hard-to-explain activity (if there were any being carried out).
That said, maybe I have it all wrong, and RS and AK were just standing outside. There wouldn't be much explanation as they weren't waiting for anyone.
Traduco
Great posting.... and I think one of the lovely ladies and also Valentines Day was the reason for my name change...
Do not forget ladies 29th Feb is arriving soon....
Do you think AK will be proposing to RS???
Kermit -
"That would have given a maximum of maybe a minute or not even that, to do an emergency shutdown of any hard-to-explain activity (if there were any being carried out).
That said, maybe I have it all wrong, and RS and AK were just standing outside. There wouldn't be much explanation as they weren't waiting for anyone."
I agree. Although, they were waiting for all the housemates to get home having called them back weren't they? I also feel they would have wanted to have been seen outside the house rather then inside by Filomena who I believe got there before the postal police.
MIchael
"I agree. Although, they were waiting for all the housemates to get home having called them back weren't they? I also feel they would have wanted to have been seen outside the house rather then inside by Filomena who I believe got there before the postal police".
-----------------------------
I would love to know who called who and when that morning and that is one piece of evidence that will be black on white based on phone records etc
Kermit and Michael,
For what it's worth, here's an excerpt from the judge's official report. If accurate, it answers two questions:
Where were AK and RS when the postal police arrived?
When did Filomena arrive?
"Extracts from the official judge's report on the murder of Meredith Kercher, obtained by the Telegraph
"On 2 November 2007 at 12.35pm persons from the Postal Police of Perugia went to Via della Pergola 7 in order to track down Romanelli Filomena, since in the same morning Mrs Lana Elisabetta had found on the lawn of the garden attached to her house, in Perugia, Via Sperandio 5b, two mobile phones of which one had the sim card of Vodafone 348 467 3711, belonging to the same Romanelli.
Upon reaching the destination the agents found outside the building on Via Della Pergola 7 two youths, identified as KNOX Amanda Marie, who lived at that address, and SOLLECITO Raffaele, who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri military police, called because on that morning they became aware of a window with the glass broken and had suspected a theft.
In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment."
Traduco: This armchair analyst (moi!)feels that there is a lot of unprocessed grief, perhaps understandable anger, confusion, abandonment, resentment of the new replacement "mother."
The father's frequent calling/contact with Raffaele may be a relatively recent phenomenon. I suspect it began to be more frequent and steady AFTER the mother's death. And may have been in response to the father's concern about Raffaele's change/response/lack of response to these two major losses. And his son's expressed or unexpressed anger at his Dad for "replacing" his mother...
I've tried to mention this from my armchair before:
RaffaSollecito's Favorites:
Film - Hamlet
Song - Sweet Dreams
Link
Hamlet: Wikipedia
Sweet Dreams: Link
Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas
Everybody's looking for something.
Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.
SB
From Timesonline 25/11/07
"It has also emerged that when postal police arived at the cottage the next morning to investigate two mobile phones found in a nearby garden and found Ms Kercher's body after breaking down her bedroom door, they also found Ms Kercher's clothes in the washing machine. Reports said the police heard the washing machine spinning to the end of its cycle as they arrived at the cottage at 1235. They also found that the cottage - apart from Ms Kercher's bedroom and the shared bathroom - had been "thoroughly cleaned with bleach".
Love Wolf -
"I would love to know who called who and when that morning and that is one piece of evidence that will be black on white based on phone records etc"
As well as the testimonies of Filomena and Laura themselves.
I would also love to see their respective testimonies in regard to the relationship between MK and AK. If MK was really fed up about AK's house keeping or lack of it, her housemates would have been the first people she would have grumbled to about it since they had common cause. The thing about grumbling about someone, once having voiced a problem about one thing about a person...they usually go on to 'Oh...and another thing!'
Micael,
I am sure not just Meredith would have been doing the grumbling about AK but also the other flatmates...
It sound like the cottage was a fun happy place until AK arrived...
I'm not sure when they expected the first of the next flatmates to arrive. Or to when Meredith's parents or friends to become overly concerned. Hoping against hope, they may have expected many more hours, or what was left of that day?? Maybe the next day. Even if done with the cleanup, more time before the discovery allows for more allibi's and time of death is made harder.
From Daily Mail.. take with a pinch of salt...
-----------------------------------
"The report says the entire focus of the investigation is on Amanda Knox and her boyfriend, Sollecito Raffaele.
The police have discovered that despite what Amanda said to police who arrived, she had not called the police to investigate a break-in but actually called the police after the 'Postal Police' had already arrived to return Romonelli's mobile phone.
The police believe that Amanda and Sollecito had "wished it to be thought they had been surprised outside the building where the murder was carried out."
In police interviews Amanda that she had seen Meredith at 1pm at their apartment with Sollecito Raffaele and that she saw her leave between 3pm and 4pm but did not know where she was going. Amanda claims that she stayed with Sollecito until 5pm, and that they went to his apartment, where they spent the whole night.
She said that when she returned to the apartment 11am the next day on the successive morning she found the door open, that she tried to call the housemates but had no response.
According to Amanda she found traces of blood in two bathrooms and that the water was full of faeces. She left the apartment at 11.30, closing the front door and locking it, and that she went back to Sollecito's apartment.
Skep -
"Upon reaching the destination the agents found outside the building on Via Della Pergola 7 two youths, identified as KNOX Amanda Marie, who lived at that address, and SOLLECITO Raffaele, who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri military police, called because on that morning they became aware of a window with the glass broken and had suspected a theft.
In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment."
Thanks for that...that clears that up since some reports I have seen placed Filomena there when the postal police arrived. However, I would have thought that they would have phoned Filomena before they did.
From Daily Telegraph.... RS clearly saying that they HAD NOT called the police..
___________________________________
"I was asking myself what could have happened and I went out to see if I could get in through Meredith's window. I tried to break down the door but I couldn't and so I decided to call my sister to get some advice because she is a police lieutenant.
"She told me to call 121 (the Italian emergency number) but in the meantime the postal police arrived.
"In my previous statement I told a load of rubbish because Amanda had convinced me of her version of the facts and I didn't think about the inconsistencies."
Love Wolf -
Yes, we certainly have had several different versions from RS.
From another source....
"The following lunchtime the Postal Police of Perugia visited Knox's flat because another flatmate's mobile phone (in recent use by Kercher) had been found in a neighbour's garden. They disturbed Sollecito and Knox, whose claim they were waiting for the Caribinieri was later shown to be false based on the timing of their call to the police".
Just changing the subject...just something I've been wanting to say. One other useful thing in cases such as this is 'Patterns of Behaviour'. There is certainly a pattern of behaviour that I feel, works against any idea of Meredith voluntarily engaginging in any sexual activity with Guede.
When we hear of Laura or Filomena being with their boyfriends we hear of them going away somewhere to be with them...rather then their bringing them back to the house. On the one report where Meredith's boyfriend speaks of them making love it was downstairs in his room. Even Amanda with RS it appears spent most evenings over at RS's to make love rather then the other way around. The impression I get from the behaviour of all the girls was that the house, for privacy reasons and perhaps others, was not considered suitable as a love nest.
I therefore believe, from that pattern of behaviour, that Meredith would not have engaged in voluntary sexual activity with Guede in that house...rather instead would have suggested his place. So, I therefore do not only find it likely that she would have engaged in sexual relations with Guede full stop...but even more so that she would have done so in that house.
Michael,
No problem. I've posted from that report a couple of times. I think it's important to stick with what the judges are working from insofar as possible. As we have seen, press/media reports contain some discrepancies. Note that this is an excerpt from that report. The translation is "word for word" but is at least understandable.
Love Wolf's source (can you tell us where this is from, LW?) is already a step removed from the judge's factual report--it says the postal police "disturbed" AK and RS, implying that they were up to no good. I'm not sure we can make this assumption on the basis of what's in the report. This needs to be taken as a journalist's slant on the information.
Your observation about the lamp is really interesting. When was it moved from AK's room to the victim's? Perhaps the roommates will be or have been questioned about that. People who share a flat are not unknown to share/trade stuff. Again, I think this is worth pursuing.
Skep -
"No problem. I've posted from that report a couple of times. I think it's important to stick with what the judges are working from insofar as possible. As we have seen, press/media reports contain some discrepancies. Note that this is an excerpt from that report. The translation is "word for word" but is at least understandable."
I agree, therefore this is the report we have to treat with the most authority.
"Your observation about the lamp is really interesting. When was it moved from AK's room to the victim's? Perhaps the roommates will be or have been questioned about that. People who share a flat are not unknown to share/trade stuff. Again, I think this is worth pursuing."
For myself, I can think of any reason 'why' Meredith 'would' have placed the lamps so...or needed to borrow another. What would have been wrong with just one lamp? What purpose would have required two? Why would she have just left them there? The one by the head of the bed would have taken just a moment to lift and put back on the side. The other just a minute to unplug and take back into AK's room...but this wasn't done. But you are are right, perhaps the testimony of the housemates could shed some light on it, no pun intended.
Michael and Love Wolf,
I expect the roommate's testimony about the relationships will emerge in due time.
From Amanda's myspace diary, it sounds as if she moved into the flat before Meredith, so I'm not sure, LW, that your comment about the place being happy until AK arrived has a factual basis.
DLW,
I think finding out when various people were expected back could be very important. Laura went to visit her family, right? I have read that Filomena was with her boyfriend. Does this mean they went together to his family's home or that they stayed in town? I am assuming Filomena's employer had decided to "faire le pont," as we say in French, meaning make a long weekend "bridge" from the Nov 1 holiday to Monday. Otherwise, she would have been working on Friday. Right?
I think we can also rule out MK taking Amanda's lamp because her own wasn't working. Otherwise, she simply would have replaced her own lamp with Amanda's and put her own 'out the way' somewhere. The power lead from MK's lamp going out into the corridor is hardly 'out the way' and since this was to plug it into the power socket in the corridor... shows the lamp was also working.
All,
I would be VERY interested if Filomena had told AK and Meredith that she was not coming home that evening and 'staying out' I am fairly sure that she would have done as the girls would see safety knowing where each other were
This is how AK would have been confident that no one would have been back early until the following day....
I will check that other source I think it was blogvilla skep but not sure where they got the wording from... it was a google search
Best regards
I think also we can work out the order in which the lamps were placed.
Firstly, MK's lamp was unplugged from its place by the head of her bed and moved to the foot of the bed and plugged in from the corridor. At some point it was decided this was not enough and Amanda's lamp was fetched and plugged in where MK's lamp normally resided except the lamp was placed on the floor rather then the side.
This actually tells us certain things and raises some questions.
MK's lamp being moved to the foot of the bed area shows that the primary area required for more light was the area just to the right at the foot of the bed. It shows the placing of the second was not ideal...but had to do where it was, although I feel it would have been extended out further from where it sits in the photo, as far as the power cord would have allowed then moved back later. The same for the lamp behind the door, although the door would have needed to have been closed.
Both these lights being where they were emphasises that whatever required lighting was 'that side' of the room, as surely there would have been another powerpoint on the other side of the room somewhere if it was needed. Although we cannot exclude a lamp being plugged in on the other side of the room and being moved over later.
Therefore, the area being cleaned/examined was that underneath where Meredith was found and that area bellow where her feet lay, the area the clothes are scattered.
Kermit, Love Wolf,
This is from RS's Diary
Nov 20 2007
(Raffaele opens the page diary on November 20 with a conviction for
him decisive) today finally they have taken the real murderer of this
story from beyond belief. It is an Ivorian of 22 years, they have
found him in Germany. Papa I saw happy and smiling, but I for the
moment am not calm 100% because I fear that he will invent strange
things.
Interesting statement by RS
Kermit,
Your sleuthing is impeccable, as usual.
Were there any reports on how much weed was found in the boys flat in the lower level of the cottage?
abdar | 02.19.08 - 2:16 am |
I wouldn't get too worked up about this.
I don't believe that the boys or Amanda or Rudy Guede or Raffaele Sollecito were doing anything that unusual for students or other people of their age with regard to the cannabis.
It's so widely available it's almost par for the course for any 20 year something, but the media will forget their own youth when in search of a story.
I don't for a minute believe that Amanda owed much money for her smoking.
The problem I have is that I don't for a minute believe that smoking weed would make her "forget". Ask anyone who has indulged. Ask Amanda.
abdar
Sorry, I left this off.
I would be much more worried about which drugs she may have taken apart from cannabis.
Every drug has it's own effect.
I'm 58 but I'm not ashamed to admit that in my youth I had one or two blank spots caused by alcohol. Remember your 21st or graduation party. Varients of speed/acid can also cause confusion when trying to recall events.
Don't take my word for it. If you don't know these things yourself, ask an expert.
Brian,
I don't remember my 21st because I was in the Military (Military Police/CID)....having said that, I don't remember much from my first night on pass.... Would you consider that the same....hehehe
Michael(UK)
RG has said that the sexual contact that he had with Meredith Kercher was consensual. The sexual stimulation began in a certain area. Meredith lost her life by a knife. This was a crime of intimidation. Several people here, like JohnT I believe have explained the theory about the use of the knife the other day. RG is lying when he says that the sex was consensual. Meredith arrived home at around 9:15 pm, I think it can be safely said. The pathologist puts her death between 10:00 pm and 12:00 am. Assuming that it took about 35 minutes to 1 hour for her to painfully die, that would put the initial blow to her neck sometime between 10:30 and 11:00. There is absolutely no evidence put forward that Meredith even remotely knew RG. So I do not believe for one moment that she came home to begin night of passion with RG. This was a crime of intimidation with sex as the motivating factor.
Traduco | 02.19.08 - 11:04 am wrote:
"Love Wolf: First, let me comment that your this new moniker of yours continues to make me laugh! I love it--it's just priceless"
Next, put a comma after "Love"
OK
:o)
Amanda is not going anywhere....no move planned.
Adbar,
It's a shame about all the wasted newsprint. Maybe Magnini is looking for leaks.
Abdar,
The way it is going no move is planned for next 25 years.....
I think it goes to the weekend tabloid update frenzie! I was amazed at how so many here on this blog ran with it.
The other 2 were moved....but not Amanda.
Hey, since everyone was saying the move indicated that she should prepare for a long stay....maybe her not being moved means she should prepare for a short stay......not really, I am just glad they will keep her in Perugia....I didn't like what I heard about the other place.
Ok Lovie....whatever gets your endangered species excited.
Abdar,
Perhaps she was not moved because she is the 'special one' and the other inmates would miss her wonderful singing too much... and thought she was singing 'let me stay' instead of 'let it be' who knows....
If she did commit the murder then I have no kind thoughts about how nice her cell or prison is... far from my thoughts...
I just realized that Love Wolf was our very own Ace Ventura Pet Detective! When you are able to resolve Red Riding Hood it will be at that time that I might take you seriously.
Pleased to see that you consider this all one big joke....
I am sure that there are blogs that can cater for someone as sharp and witty as you
Sleep well....
Well Love Wolf, you are such a hypocrite. You taunt people with your little witty remarks....cute...hahaha....you try to make a joke out of this crime with your inability to make any sense of it. It reminds me of a story I once heard.....Of course the names have been changed to protect the innocent....but I think you will love being a star in this one:
It goes:
Little Red Riding Hood is skipping down the road when she sees Big Bad Love Wolf crouched down behind a log. "My big eyes you have, Love Wolf," says Little Red Riding Hood. Love wolf jumps up and runs away!!! Further down the road Little Red Riding Hood sees Love Wolf again. This time Love Wolf is crouched behind a tree stump. "My big ears you have Love Wolf," says Little Red Riding Hood. Again Love Wolf jumps up and runs away. About 2 miles down the road Little Red Riding Hood sees Love Wolf again, this time crouched down behind a road sign. "My big teeth you have Love Wolf," taunts Little Red Riding Hood. With that Big Bad Love Wolf jumps up and screams... "Will you friggin' leave me alone??? I'm trying to take a S#!T!"
So from now on when I read your taunts, I am just going to picture you trying to draw my attention away from you being crouched down behind a road sign!
Abdar ... do you know of any specific date of interest before the April 1 review hearing?
Kermit,
Thank you for bringing this blog back to earth!
Not a specific date.
Kermit,
Could you give me an update on the movement of the three persons currently in custody? Which of them have been moved and to where and what were, if any, the reasons for the move?
Hi Abdar,
Thanks for correcting the erroneous information about the move. To tell you the truth, I wasn't even sure--if it was true--why it would be such a big deal. It seems that the temptation is strong to read too much into everything. In France, for example, people in custody are moved all the time, for administrative or organizational reasons. It is too bad that the wrongly reported information was immediately interpreted as a sign of guilt--charges haven't even been filed yet!
Also, it occurs to me that given the amount of coverage this case has generated so far, so much of it focused on Amanda Knox, it would have been silly to move her. It would have just created a huge stir for nothing. In fact, even the rumor of a move created a medium size stir for a couple of days.
bpcl | 02.19.08 - 4:41 pm |
My news is your news: I just took a look at the Italian Google news and there's nothing there.
I'm sure that Abdar's information regarding Amanda's (or the others) location is more up-to-date than the wire services.
I would agree with Skep, that there are many reasons for moving people around prisons, from space issues, to administrative issues, to media-circus issues (every time Dr. S. goes in and out of Capanne, there's a scrum, maybe the prison warden would prefer that to take place somewhere else).
--- Abdar! Can I ask why you asked about weed downstairs? Ref. possible robbery motives?
Here I go again, Abdar ... Amanda's legal team are the lawyers she had from day 1 (ie. Nov. 6?). Or were they not retained (you know what I mean) until Amanda's parents got over?
The only reason I ask is to understand if any initial statements (the hand written note from the 6th or 7th) or other post-arrest acts by Amanda were done within the overall strategy of the lawyers that she is with at the moment. (Or other acts/activities further along the way, like keeping the diary which was seized).
-
Abdar,
Are you saying that both RS and RG have been moved to different places and if so, do you have any information where and why?
Looks like the civility tracks have been jumped here. Everyone calm down or I'll delete the entry and not give anyone the link to this discussion.
I realize that posters here tend to be strongly suspicious of all the currently incarcerated players in this case, and with mostly good reason.
That said, I really don't like the hyper-suspicious and dismissive way you've dealt with other posters who have come here with a different view. I'd really like paranoid talk of "PR people" and what-not to cease (admittedly, there has been little of that in this particular open thread). Seems to me that the bizarrely corporate nature of the Madeleine McCann mystery has infected some of you veteran crime watchers with a certain paranoia.
To put it succinctly: I'm still suspicious of the people in jail re: this case, too. I know the Italians have a lot of issues with corruption, etc in their govt. and law enforcement, but there has to be some sort of "there" there for Amanda, Raffaele, and Rudy to still be behind bars.
BUT -- I am asking others posting here to either take a new approach to those who may not see eye-to-eye with them or cease making comments. I know that hiding behind screen names makes most of you more feisty than you might be in real-world conversation, but be an adult and try to imagine yourself actually looking that other person in the eye. I think you might change your rhetoric immediately if you did so.
EVERYONE -- know what you're getting into if you post here. If you think you're gonna get into it with someone to the point of acid sarcasm and insults, don't post. Go away and cool off, at the very least. I've got blood pressure issues as it is, so everbody give me a bit of a break and try to play at least a little nice.
Thank you,
Steve
RG and RS have been moved....that's all I know.
Abdar: Did Amanda's team have any reaction to the RS team's "barrel-throwing" (my bad translation) / accusing of RHG to be the owner of the shoeprint. (I imagine they were above the fray, but just in case ...)
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Kermit,
All I can say about her statements is that she had no representation by anyone when that took place.
As for the weed, I better not talk about that anymore until I see if more was said about any (if any) was found (vie public record). If anyone can find anything I would be curious.
As for the weekend info....as usual the tabs like to get the excitement generated (apparently on Sundays). It seems that Sunday is the Day that many of the unusual leaks come out. They tend to make the story larger than it needs to be and then got everyone here all excited. Then on Monday and Tuesday....lots of sales...
As for when I get sarcastic. I reserve myself until people jab at me because my beliefs may be different than yours. That is my right....to continue to say that I find this entire situation funny or humorous is way off base.
As for my beliefs, I don't recall that I have ever come out and stated how I feel either way. I have just replied and pondered on relevant facts (true facts not mixed information).
When you all find out that Amanda has not been moved.....maybe you will start to believe that some of us just have more confidence in what we are told by people we believe in...
bpcl -
I never for a moment in this case ever believed that Meredith ever willingly went with Guede. The reason for my post was because I have seen some lately have been ready to perhaps consider the possibility. My post was meant to further rule the idea out.
Abdar, thanks for the replies. We'll look for public record references to weed downstairs.
Ref. that flat, we saw a single (I think single) newspaper reference to the blood on the wall downstairs being animal blood, perhaps specifically Giacomo's (sp?) cat's. Can you say anything about that? Is the cat alive?
-
Anything found in the closet in the downstairs flat?
GROUP work & personal stuff have kept me away and will do so {Drat!}. Haven't even been able to scan. {Double drat!} PLEASE keep up general civility. {Double crikey!! Steve beat me to it!! Ah, well} We all know this story has a long way to go.
As Middie used to say
Ciao
.
Abdar re Downstairs closet:
IF something WAS found in that place, ILE did not/has not leaked it to anyone. IF something WAS found, ILE is either holding it close or doesn't think its relevant. Its the job of the defense team to, when it sees the evidence, disabuse them of a notion of irrelevancy. Its what a good defense tema should be doing right now.
So, what was found (if any thing) in the closet, do you THINK? Was it bigger than a bread-basket or smaller? Was it once live and now inanimate or always inanimate?
(I knew there'd be something to add.)
No ciao this time.
If it was a once animate object, now dead, and that used to purr (this sort of speculation is how rumours start), maybe that's an added factor to the laughed at voodoo / satanical / manga angle.
-
bpcl -
I never for a moment in this case ever believed that Meredith ever willingly went with Guede. The reason for my post was because I have seen some lately have been ready to perhaps consider the possibility. My post was meant to further rule the idea out.
Michael (UK) | 02.19.08 - 5:27 pm | #
Sorry guys, but it's still on the table for me. It doesn't mean I believe it, but it does mean I can't rule it out.
First, remember that whatever you think about Rudy, there seem to be a lot of local people who had a different idea. MK wouldn't have known about RG's small police record, and since other students have said he wasn't a drug dealer, MK, probably saw him the same way, if she knew him.
Second, sorry, I don't have the reference for it, but it was reported that MK told a girlfriend that Giacomo was an "unreliable boyfriend."
Third, Giacomo said that his relationship with MK was not exclusive.
Fourth, the wine MK consumed may have put her in an a more off-guard, easy-going mood.
Fifth, signs of petting do not necessarily indicate that both parties were keen on intercourse. The "no condom" situation described by RG, could also be a relief for a young woman who may allow a little kissing and touching, but not want much more.
Sixth, I hate to say this but I know some of you are going to jump on me for what's written above. The finger evidence, if it were part of what started out as consensual affection could have been executed very quickly, as the next move, and could have been the one that made her so "no" finally.
Seventh, the fact that Rudy's statement that he arrived at 8:38, with MK, doesn't match MK's friends' statement leading to the belief she arrived at home at around 9:00, does not rule out consensual petting. It rules out that they arrived at the cottage together. RG might have another reason for lying about how he arrived at the cottage, which is that if he told the truth, he'd have to mention Amanda, or Amanda and RS. He's avoided saying he was with them so far.
So, imagine the little "party" is RS, RG, and AK hanging out at the house together. Then MK comes home and at first things are cordial. The wine and food consumed by MK doesn't necessarily support this, but it can.
Bpcl, this scenario might be difficult to accept, but I can't rule it out, just like I can't rule out scenarios that are much more damaging to all parties. I'm keeping an open mind. And I don't think this scenario tarnishes MK's image at all. It's just a possibility and if it were true, personally I don't think it says anything bad about her. She was a very young woman learning about life.
Anything found in the closet in the downstairs flat?
Abdar | 02.19.08 - 5:44 pm |
I've not seen any reference to this. What about you?
Sparrow -
"Second, sorry, I don't have the reference for it, but it was reported that MK told a girlfriend that Giacomo was an "unreliable boyfriend."
Third, Giacomo said that his relationship with MK was not exclusive."
There is a difference between thinking your boyfriend a tad unreliable and then getting it on with Guede. Giacomo may have said that as far as he was concerned they were not exclusive...but Meredith probably had other ideas...I can't see her accepting him being non-exclusive.
Now, if she was getting it on with Guede she kept it so quiet as to not even mention it to her girlfriends, girls who she felt she could talk about her love life to. Now, for me, even if there was a small chance she would have gone with someone like Guede...a shy and private girl like Meredith was never going to do so in her house where any of her housemates may come home and find her with him...especially as it was a guy she should not have been with, already having a boyfriend that all the housemates knew about.
I have to ask....many have basically said about whatever they want about Amanda and her personality ect...ect. Why should any of you be afraid to "tarnish" MK? Yes, she is the victim here but it by know means that because you are the victim that you didn't have other things going on in regards to her lifestyle.
Sparrow....I think I won't say anything else about that for now....I need to confirm something first before I mention that evidence.
Thanks, Sparrow, for that clear post. I think it is safe to say that there is more that we don't know than that we do know at this time.
I have something to say about the presence of a lawyer during the questioning that began on Nov 5 and ended on Nov 6. I hope I don't get jumped all over, merely because it doesn't advance the discussion at all, and I hope someone out there can enlighten me on this point.
From everything that I have read about Italian criminal procedure, in particular since the reforms of recent years, an "informed person" being questioned by the police would not have a lawyer present. I believe such a person could opt not to cooperate or answere questions (?), but would probably feel that it is not in their interest not to do so. In Italian law, one has the right to a lawyer from the moment one is officially considered to be a suspect. In the official judge's statement, we read this:
"It was in this moment that Knox Amanda and Sollecito Raffaele lost the appearance that they were persons informed about the facts and became suspects themselves."
This moment means after Raffaele had been questioned and after Amanda Knox "confessed."
I would imagine that the prosecution is going to argue that these statements be admitted, and I am wondering how the defense can argue against their admissibility under Italian law.
It was claimed that no interpreter was present, then later by Edda Mellas on television that an interpreter was partially present, and then by cnn (in response to this very claim) that according to police an interpreter was present throughout.
So to me it looks like an interpreter WAS present and that a lawyer's presence was not required until they became suspects.
Aside from whether or not this is "right" in terms of how it feels to us, I'd like to have input on this point from anyone who knows anything about this.
Do you think the admissibility of these statements will be a bone of contention in this case when the preliminary investigation is concluded and the results of it are presented?
I would think that the defense will want to argue that they are not admissible, but on what specific grounds if the above is true?
I am not a lawyer and so could well be missing something vital, but my research into the subject has not provided me with the assurance that the statements made by AK and RS as "informed persons" will automatically be excluded as inadmissible.
Sparrow, your scenario for me is within the realm of plausibility ... and Michael, your concern that if that were a possible scenario, such an encounter wouldn't be carried out in the cottage in front of housemates (in particular, Amanda) also makes sense ... CASE IN POINT:
"we just got a washing machine the other day, though it was borken. Luckily, Laura [the other housemate, along with Filomena] started dating a hadnyman so he came over and fixed it for us. I didnt Know he spent the night until in the morning when he walked out of the bathroom in his underwear. Unfortunately i burst out laughing, not because he's scrawny or anything, but because Laura had been complaining a couple days previously that she hadnt gotten laid in a long time. Forsa [go for it] Laura!"
(Amanda's MySpace Monday Oct 15)
I don't know if the victim read her housemate's MySpace, but there it is being beamed to the rest of the world ... If I were Laura, I would have been peeved.
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Steve Hi, I couldn't agree more, you will have noticed many posters who share different views and opinions no longer post here because they just get stomped on and in some cases personally abused as in the cae of CMellas, a couple of the posts to him were way below the belt - questioning his right to call himself a father etc, it was appalling and those posters should feel ashamed. The fact many posters scared him off with their usual sledgehammer subtlety says something about their (lack of)ability to engage in a meaningful conversation with a person who could truly offer a first hand perspective, they just invite confrontation or make the other poster retreat.
Ive noticed that the thread has now turned mainly into a continuous dribble about the minutae of trying to prove AK and RS guilt or irrelevant side issues, under the guise of being 'open minded people searching for the truth' prepared to discuss the 'grey' areas which if you read back many of their earlier posts pre Cmellas these statements couldn't be further from reality and you will find a lot of the statements made post Cmellas were of a very hypocritical nature.
For those of us who don't share the same views this thread no longer offers any kind of meaningful discussion.
I am posting this from Perugia, I havn't had much time here yet but what I have learnt from a relative who
is the assistant to the Chancellor of the University of Perugia (not the Foreigners one) was the huge impact the murder had on the Universities with many students pulling out of their courses and leaving Perugia, the Universities were thrown into turmoil and were demanding someone(anyone?) be caught for this asap. The intense pressure from the Universities was behind that premature 'case closed' statement from Mignini and his anxiety to solve the crime quickly and make that false announcement. They rushed many things and made many assumptions, they botched up the control of the crime scene and environs quite badly right from day one.
The Perugian police now have zero tolerance for any fringe people such a Guede and the relatively open drug culture and a clean up campaign is currently underway.
The general opinion in Perugia is that regardless of whether you think Sollecito is involved or not he has the best defence lawyer in Italy and many are positive he will walk from this a free man, his 'truth' will now only be heard in court.
Amanda Knox's team are also awaiting their day in court and as Cmellas says their 'truth' will be told there also, let's hope so.
I no longer follow the blogs as intensely as I did before because I feel there is nothing more to be gained until we see what transpires from the hearings.
I do have many other thoughts on other aspects, such as why the phones were thrown were they where, after driving past the area yesterday but I don't have time to share those now.
The house looks deserted and cold, sitting in it's bleak ampitheatre with it's sad shrine of dead flowers.
Ci vediamo dopo.
MichaelUK what Sparrow has carefully done is point out how part, again part, of what Rudy says might have some truth in it. And she's saying IF it occurred, it was most likely spur of the moment & situational, perhaps she'd talked to him & he could have played the suave type this time before plus a bit of wine so "goofing around" might have started. We are all assuming there was a "no, no more" there.
My working asssumption is that with a bit of wine at home, after leaving early cause tired from the friends, she'd be even more tired and "goofing around" with Rudy, say starting off in the kitchen, would have a low likelihood. But Sparrow has a legit point to make, especially from a woman's perspective.
Abdar let us know. To restate, NO, there has been nothing stated about anything found in a closet inthe downstairs suite. The closet you reference is there, correct? In fact, I remember reading that nothing was amiss downstairs but that may be because there was no leak/report to the press. And no reporter hasn't gotten boo out of the young men since the initial interview(s) with Giacomo. If as a friend of a friend, you've heard otherwise, you've also "heard" what it was.
Now, if she was getting it on with Guede she kept it so quiet as to not even mention it to her girlfriends, girls who she felt she could talk about her love life to. Now, for me, even if there was a small chance she would have gone with someone like Guede...a shy and private girl like Meredith was never going to do so in her house where any of her housemates may come home and find her with him...especially as it was a guy she should not have been with, already having a boyfriend that all the housemates knew about.
Michael (UK) | 02.19.08 - 6:10 pm | #
I was not suggesting that she was getting it on with him regularly, which would be a situation in which she may talk to her girlfriends about it. I was suggesting that it's possible that something happened between them that night, in the way I described. And "a guy she should not have been with," is your interpretation. Giacomo said he didn't mind. Say what you will about that. It indicates to me that MK might have felt more adrift in the relationship than you think she was. And if you'll notice, in that scenario it doesn't suggest that she was even keen on intercourse. Sometimes in a relaxed atmosphere unplanned things start, and stop. They stopped in this case. Why does it seem that in analyzing this case, sometimes people forget what real life is like and fall back on the church version of how things should be?
Robert M. | 02.19.08 - 6:27 pm | "I remember reading that nothing was amiss downstairs "
We'll have to go back to published reports, Robert M ... my memory is that the place was trashed and blood was spread on the walls. And the only new (forgotten) issue is that the blood was (may have been) the cat's.
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Because either/or is how our minds generally function. We've evovled into considering "maybes".
Oceania88 Great to hear from you! Made it, didja? All discussions shift in emphasis over time depending on who's particiapting. So welcome back withat that insight.
I do have to defend the group in general on the "its over" line. NONE of us participating back on Halo I thought that was the case then, and I certainly do not think so now. It was a very irresponsible remark and we surmised the reasons are what you say your relative thinks. Rushes to judgement, and such it was, increase the likelihood that that judgement is wrong.
Robert,
I am not saying anything else about the lower flat at this time.
Skep,
I know where you are leading with your evaluation of the "cofession". I think as time rolls along here, you will eventually get the insight you seek but it will not be something you can see until the case goes to trial. Once that happens, you will understand the issues at hand with those results.
Hi. I have been reading for two days, and have become quite fascinated with this case & the very detailed analysis that all of you are conducting. My opinion is that there is obviously so much more to the story than either of the three currently in prison have told us, plus many more. The fact that FOUR (five?) different people's DNA have been found on the victim's bra speaks volumes. I'm not sure exactly what this leads to, but I do see it could mean a few things.
Many women (myself included!) do not launder their bras everyday. They may wear a bra for several days before it is washed. I know NOTHING about DNA, but is it possible that the DNA could be from the past few days? Was AK's DNA found on the body? It seems that I read that somewhere.
Also, what do you all make of the man who supposedly wrecked & saw an argument with a knife? What in the world? Is this credible at all?
Kermit if it was, I type corrected. Certainly there was no blood in Filomena's room as we saw from your pics, so anything else disturbed had to have been downstairs.
skep,
I meant "confession"
As if the Kercher family did not have enough heartache, pain and worry to have to cope with, I just reread something distressing of which I was not aware.
Meredith's mother is seriously ill, and is on dialysis.
How draining and grueling this (life-sustaining) procedure is for those who must undergo it.
To those of us who are so inclined, let's pray for swift justice for Meredith. And for Meredith's family, let's pray that this suffering woman may be able to be sustained physically, spiritually and emotionally in the weeks and months to come, which surely will be brutal ones.
I also did not know that her father (divorced from Mum, Arline) is a journalist. I wonder in what capacity.
From CORRIERE DELLA SERA
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/
..._meredith.shtml
I suoi genitori, il giornalista John Kercher e la moglie separata Arline, con gravi problemi di salute ( sotto dialisi)
Traduco
Jess | 02.19.08 - 6:38 pm |
Welcome Jess!
"is it possible that the DNA could be from the past few days?" Yes, even washing may not remove DNA, as we have seen with the victim's and Amanda's DNA on the knife found in Raffaele's house. For me the knife is very significant, for others less so as because of the bleach, it isn't possible to identify the source (blood, skin,...) of the victim's DNA. And as for Amanda's, in theory she could have cut herself cooking with Raffaele much more easily than the victim.
"Was AK's DNA found on the body?"
No. Amanda's DNA is surely all about that house, as she lived there. But for the moment there hasn't been any reporting on DNA found in the cottage in a way which implicates her. That is very important for her defence team.
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Jess -
Welcome to the discussion.
Yes, the bra is interesting and also a problem, with so many people's dna on it. However, it is rather damning for RS since his dna is on the material around the bra clasp on the part of the bra cut with a knife....just where one would hold it if cutting the bra with a knife.
As for Amanda's dna on the victim....there is none as far as I'm aware.
The 'Albanian Superwitness' who claims to have been engaged by the trio in an argument and menaced by Amanda with a knife....the last I read the police were treating him seriously, although RS's defence claimed they could provide an alibi for that night. But, unless someone knows otherwise, it's still on.
Ooops, I actually meant to write that Meredith's parents are SEPARATED, and not divorced.
Abdar,
Maybe you misunderstood me. I was not presenting an evaluation of the confession and I was not going anywhere in particular. I was asking for some insight into Italian law from anyone reading this board who might be knowledgeable in that area. This information is presumably already "out there," since it is a point of law and not specific to this case.
It happens to be one of the nagging questions that is bothering me. If one of our fellow posters can explain it to me, then that would help me to understand the case better. The desire for information from reliable sources is really my only agenda.
Abdar OK but your query leads to the conclusion (1) there was something likely germane to the case found in the closet--in the view of the defense team, and (2) ILE has already informed the defense team of what it is, else friends of friends (FOFs?) would not know about this detail.
If you are going to proceed in general, then certain understandings eed to be in effect. Keep asking certain types of questions. But also, providing answers within a range should be OK from a friend of a friends perspective.
Jesse No, no actual DNA from AK has been found in Meredith's room at all. Zip, nada, none. ILE claims that DNA from RS and RG HAS been found; RG's for sure and he admits he was in the room of course, and some of RS's DNA on Meredith's bra. (There's also the shoeprint(s). See kermit's various PP stuff, his links are near the top of this thread.)
ILE DID announce that two addtional DNA results wre found on "cotton swabs" [or plain tissues?] in the room and MATCHING DNA on "material" found otuside. I call them Mr & Ms CS. This DNA does NOT fit any of the theories that ILE or Mignini have formally put forth. They can't be there by accident or if they ARE, then all the other DNA evidence is ther by accident as well. And that would mean, save for RG, there's no case at all against AK & RS.
Got it FOF!
Sparrow:
Bpcl, this scenario might be difficult to accept, but I can't rule it out, just like I can't rule out scenarios that are much more damaging to all parties. I'm keeping an open mind. And I don't think this scenario tarnishes MK's image at all. It's just a possibility and if it were true, personally I don't think it says anything bad about her. She was a very young woman learning about life.
And nor can I.
Meredith was a young lady who traveled to Italy to further her studies. It doesn't mean she was the virgin Mary.
I believe that she was an innocent young girl who found herself in the wrong situation. I don't necessarily believe that she would have rejected Guede out of hand. Until this unfortunate turn of events he seems a relatively local friendly, carefree character of little consequence, but friendly just the same.
Michael UK: I can't fault your logic and I mean no offence, but who ever made love to a heart of stone?
It's why I find Sollecito a much more sinister character.
oceania88 | 02.19.08 - 6:27 pm |"I do have many other thoughts on other aspects, such as why the phones were thrown were they where, after driving past the area yesterday"
The phones in principle are a minor issue, but they fascinate me for some reason.
I look forward to hearing your impression of the phone's location. If you saw the last powerpoint, you'll see that I don't think a jog down from the hole in the wall makes much sense (a lot of running just to throw the phones on an old lady's lawn).
A drive-by ditching goof-up could be a better explanation. I assume that in that stretch of road, except for Sra. Elisabetta's house, the ravine drops off immediately and rather steeply from the outside edge of the road.
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Abdar,
Are you saying that your question about what was found in the flat downstairs was motivated by information that you as an FOF received?
Is this information that you cannot elaborate on at this time?
This feels a little like playing CLUE. Personally, I think it was Colonel Mustard with the Candlestick in the Parlor.
Traduco | 02.19.08 - 6:48 pm |
Thanks Traduco for the news concerning Meredith's mother's health. I wasn't aware of it. Their world has been permanently thrown upside down since Nov.1. And it will never get normal for as much time may pass.
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Abdar
The problem is that Meredith was killed in the most horrific of circumstances.
Somebody did it.
Why should any of you be afraid to "tarnish" MK? Yes, she is the victim here but it by know means that because you are the victim that you didn't have other things going on in regards to her lifestyle.---Abdar
I think that when discussion on this case first started, there was a lot of talk about group sex that MK could have been involved in that diminished her victimhood in some way. There was also careless speculation about her sex life that was really disrespectful, and has nothing to do with the crime. And a lot of people have a high regard for Meredith. I share in that feeling Abdar, I think she was a really lovely young woman who had a great future ahead of her and the way she died is just so awful. So people are protective of MK. Sometimes it seems an obstacle in looking at the case. She was a real person, dealing with real life and the scenario above is based on how things really can happen. I mentioned that I don't think it tarnishes her image at all, because I firmly believe that, but also because I know some posters have a hard time with this kind of scenario, and I want them to understand.
Abdar, I think you and Love Wolf are both smart, funny, great guys, and the only reason you've had a clash is because he's thinking of Meredith first and you're thinking of Amanda first. You have some kind of personal connection to Amanda, but some of us feel a strong connection to MK, so as we should try to be respectful of your situation, this might help you understand some people around here.
From Robert M:
"Abdar OK but your query leads to the conclusion (1) there was something likely germane to the case found in the closet--in the view of the defense team, and (2) ILE has already informed the defense team of what it is, else friends of friends (FOFs?) would not know about this detail."
Abdar,
I'm just wondering if you can say agree, disagree or no comment at this time in response to the above from RM.
I second Kermit on thanks to Traduco for the information about Meredith's mom.
Micheal UK, I misunderstood your "someone she shouldn't have been with" not registering in regards to the roommates. But still, my impression of her relationship with Giacomo is less firm than yours, and the scenario is something that is unplanned and in a casual setting, and again, it stops.
Sparrow | 02.19.08 - 7:19 pm |"my impression of her relationship with Giacomo is less firm than yours"
None of these relationships were lifelong love stories.
The victim and Giacomo: 3 weeks.
Amanda and Raffaele: 2 weeks.
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A Reminder about A Parallel Theory.
This was posited back on Halo II by me and coyotewaits. It stems from the LACK of AK DNA in Meredith's room BUT the presence of Mr & Ms CS DNA. And also there is stuff that Pincecone refuses to consider re his base-line Rudy Did It All position.
EVERYTHING that we "know" can be presented the same way IF we substitute Mr & Ms CS for AK & RS. (And things like not flushing the toilet make even more sense if its them doing the staging around midnight. They want RG implicated.) Now, the clear objection is if RG didn't hang around, why would they? And there's the early report of the White Car driving away (Halo I & II). And we had a go over there about why RG just doesn't name them, & there were various theories floated about that. (Mine was Rudy is safe in prison if he keeps silent. If he tries to beat the murder rap by naming the real killers, then his life is not safe anywheres. Let us have no misconceptions about that. The US Feds now run a whole separate prison just for snitches.)
Also, I would point out that what we see of the kitchen in kermit's pics does not indicate any type of "cleaning" went on there, yet one of the ILE people said they only found one AK fingerprint on a cup there. Really, the "cleaners" put the mess back they way they found it? Or AK just didn't use stuff there as she was over at RS's all the time? That's why I presently have issues with the whole idea of a "clean-up" beyond scrubbing blood from off themselves in the bathroom.
So, until we "know" more about all the remaining Lab Results, AND have a read of the COMPLETE taped/transcribed interrogations, the CS couple wre accomplices is STILL a very viable construction based on what we "know".
Brian,
"The problem is that Meredith was killed in the most horrific of circumstances."
After how many thousand posts that have been inserted into this blog, do you know think that maybe most of already know this? What is your point in re-hashing this fact?
So, until we "know" more about all the remaining Lab Results, AND have a read of the COMPLETE taped/transcribed interrogations, the CS couple wre accomplices is STILL a very viable construction based on what we "know".
Robert M. | 02.19.08 - 7:24 pm | #
May or may not be relevant to Mr. & Ms. CS, but was there not an early report of a stiletto heel print in MK's room?
Sparrow,
I agree with you about my feelings about Amanda, but I also was saddened by this murder. I feel that the Kerchers deserve to know the truth about what happen to their daughter and I feel that MK's friends also deserve to know the truth. So do the students in the college and the community as a whole.
Skep -- I won't comment on that anymore....at least not now. I don't know if I am allowed to elaborate about that area of the investigation. Let me see what can be said....and I will get back to you about it.
Brian -
"Michael UK: I can't fault your logic and I mean no offence, but who ever made love to a heart of stone?"
No offence taken.
Sparrow -
"Micheal UK, I misunderstood your "someone she shouldn't have been with" not registering in regards to the roommates. But still, my impression of her relationship with Giacomo is less firm than yours, and the scenario is something that is unplanned and in a casual setting, and again, it stops."
I understand where you're coming from, it's only that I can't see it myself. I think there are always going to be things on which we don't agree.
Robert M -
"Also, I would point out that what we see of the kitchen in kermit's pics does not indicate any type of "cleaning" went on there, yet one of the ILE people said they only found one AK fingerprint on a cup there. Really, the "cleaners" put the mess back they way they found it? Or AK just didn't use stuff there as she was over at RS's all the time?"
Well...it was a 'Clean-Up'...not 'Tidy-Up".
Thanks Abdar.
I appreciate your response.
What is your point in re-hashing this fact?
My point, Adbar, is that neither Amanda, Rudy or Raffaele have told a story about that evening that I believe.
Abdar its just a statement spoken out of personal need. An interjection, not a rehash.
A rehash would be if we spent ANY time on the "fake" AK walking into the underground garage CCTV pics, which alas we did on HALO II AND HALO III. Many of us hadn't caught up to the fact as explained in Halo II, so it took some byte psace on Halo III.
Anyways, how about it? Keep asking those certain types of questions, but a reply structure would be appreciated.
["If I move the potted plant from the left side of the balcony to the right side, be in the garage at Willow if its the second Thursday of the month. But if its the third Thursday..."]
May or may not be relevant to Mr. & Ms. CS, but was there not an early report of a stiletto heel print in MK's room?
Skeptical Bystander | 02.19.08 - 7:36 pm | #
Yes, that was reported. I think those prints were made by the legs of the ugly chair that Rudy claimed to have used to fend off the real killer.
Until that second round of pictures was published, we knew about the chair only from Rudy's story. Take a look at the skinny tapered legs on the chair and see what you think.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
Question about that picture you just posted a link to. Did anyone ever wonder why there is no chemical residue left on the inside or outside of the shower? Why would they not inspect that area?
Most of the people who brought up those kinds of questions have moved on.
Abdar -
"Question about that picture you just posted a link to. Did anyone ever wonder why there is no chemical residue left on the inside or outside of the shower? Why would they not inspect that area?"
The chemical residue 'showing' is a result of the chemical reacting with 'blood'. If it does not show on the shower it's because there was no blood on the shower.
"What are those kind of questions" pinecone? Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it ? Otherwise don't be so rude.
Actually, MichaelUK, based on what my lying eyes see in Kermit's pics, I'm hard pressed to believe there there was even a Tidy-UP at all (again except for self-cleaning in the bathroom). When I ran an undergraduate dorm, even the messy guys organzied their rooms and even swept them before a long weekend break. I had to go around to inspect each room to make sure nothing untoward was left percolating, for instance (or late to make sure the fish in the tank were fed). What I see in Kermit's pics looks nothing like what my kids did. It looks like what I leave parts of my place now when traveling to Connecticut to see realtives. Pinecone has been strident on this and with the pics, I've moved over towards Staging, not Clean-Up. ILE jumped on that theme real quick, as they did with the Sex Games Gone Wrong theory.
SB Ah, yes! The "infamous" and now not referred to "stilleto heel imprint". Another outlier fact found by the ILE themselves that as a defense lawyer I'd see as a big hole to drive my "Not My Client" truck right through.
As to the Confession, as I said over on Halo III, Mignini will try to get it admitted, if he even has to bother. Defense will try to get it excluded, or spend a lot of time before the presiding judges "contextualizing" it. It was bad Chicago cop technique and because of the translation issues can be undermined.
But remember, we also don't know What Else Was Said via cellphone between AK & RS that the ILE tapped starting on Saturday/Sunday. Of course, my ongoing assumption is that when we DON'T hear about something, that means (1) it doesn't help ILE, and/or (2) clearly has another interpretation. I think they released the CS and heel stuff because it was right around the time they started looking for RG so even they could not be sure, given that RG had surfaced, that there weren't actually still others involved.
Rober M -
I certainly would go along with 'Staging'...things were certainly staged to leave the finger pointed at Guede for example. Although, some of that staging included cleaning to some extent in selective areas.
Abdar I know its a pain, but I'd urge you to read a good bit of Halo II. Pinecone is being direct, not rude, and he's in your corner, as I've alluded to several times right now. (And I, no, I'm not being rude either, just direct in terms of scene setting.)
I agree with you about my feelings about Amanda, but I also was saddened by this murder. I feel that the Kerchers deserve to know the truth about what happen to their daughter and I feel that MK's friends also deserve to know the truth. So do the students in the college and the community as a whole.---Abdar
Yes, we are all in agreement to that. I'm so glad you're here and we're struggling through this toghether.
Good luck folks....I'm out. If I get done reading H1 and HII, I might return (doubt it).
Skep -- If you watch the other 2 blogs, I will post over there when I find out the answer to what you seek. I think you know the other 2 blogs the some hate....one in perusia and the other I think on the PI. I will post as Goofy over there...just because I feel like being goofy again.
Happy Crime Solving Folks
Well [chuckle], that was interesting. Going over to the other blogs would seem to me to be jumping onto the burners from this skillet. Ah, well. Thought I was just facilitating a more courteous approach.
oceania88 do give us an "inside" view when you can.
Abdar | 02.19.08 - 8:12 pm | "I think you know the other 2 blogs the some hate....one in perusia and the other I think on the PI."
I think you misread us Abdar, all those greys and colours. I don't believe there has ever been any problem by anyone with Perugia Shock, and any PI issues that one or another could have had in the past are well out the door.
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Abdar
I really think you should leave blogs alone, hard as it may seem in the Knox's current circumstance.
The internet is a virtual world.
You and they are living part of a tradegy in the real world.
Feel the wind and rain. Nothing you say here will make the slightest difference in Italy.
Well I'm off to bed. It's good to see the oldies, as well as the newies out. Ref. the latter, Brian, you and Minotaur have been providing some excellent and varied observations and analysis over the last few days.
Hasta maana.
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Brian | 02.19.08 - 8:37 pm |
Brian, to a lesser degree what you say replies to us all. We all need to take a break from this sometimes. Ciao.
"Take a look at the skinny tapered legs on the chair and see what you think.
Pinecone"
Pinecone,
Thanks for the link to the photo. I remember thinking at the time the chair legs were too thick to be stilettos. But we could be talking about another bad translation. What if the police said "heels" and the translator, journalist or babelfish came up with "stilettos." Translation software suffers from many defects, one of them being that you get one word in one language for each word in the other.
"Feel the wind and the rain" is what I'm about to do, but first:
Ive been following the talk and theories on clean-ups, bleach receipts, bleach residue, etc and some of it does sound compelling. But what doesnt make sense is that the alleged cleaning is assigned to RSs flat and various areas of the cottage. Evidence of it is said to be in many places, everywhere but the room where the murder occurred. If knox and sollecito had a lot of cleaning to do, they must have gotten dirty. They would have had to have been in the murder room and, Michaels interesting observations notwithstanding, there has been no announcement of evidence of a clean-up in Merediths bedroom.
Michael, I do not agree that the appearance of the side of the wardrobe and the presence of the lamps shows or suggests that a clean-up took place in the murder room. And that is where I would most expect it to happen. The DNA finding on the bra will be argued about in court and well see what the defense says. I think theyll say that there are many ways that the DNA if it is indeed a match could have gotten there. In any case, if sollecito took such an active role, Id expect that there would be more of his DNA to find.
Thats what Im waiting for. Also, I want to hear what the defense teams have to say. Right now, the scenarios and theories are posed in something of a vacuum, the vacuum of one side of this story, the polices. True, there may be more to that than we now know. There also may be less.
See ya when I come in from the rain!
Look out Brian, I don't think you can get out of your own way.
Look out Brian, I don't think you can get out of your own way.
Abdar
"I think you misread us Abdar, all those greys and colours. I don't believe there has ever been any problem by anyone with Perugia Shock, and any PI issues that one or another could have had in the past are well out the door.
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Kermit | 02.19.08 - 8:27 pm | #"
I second Kermit here. Almost everyone realizes there is no point in continuing the Blog Wars, and that all of the blogs you mention have something to offer. Robert has asked, succinctly and eloquently, on more than one occasion that this kind of talk cease. This is a free forum, but it would be nice if his request were honored. I say this as someone who in the past has referred to other blogs in ways that I regret now. I'm sorry about that. Sometimes it's hard not to get dragged into things.
In terms of this case, many of us got riled last week when we were referred to as "the anti-Knox camp," for the simple reason that there are more shades of gray here than anything else. I have also seen subtle shifts in many people's positions as discussion has advanced. My own position shifts daily.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Daniel M: what is important is to see the evidence presented in the light of day so we can hear all the arguments and see how the evidence fits or doesn't.
Sparrow,
It does not matter to me whether or not Meredith had one drink or two on the night of November 1st. It does not matter to me whether or not she knew RG or had a relationship with him. RG lied when he said that he went to the house with Meredith at 8:38 pm. The cellphones of both AK and RS were both turned off simultaneously around this time. Maybe RS and AK knew from RG that Meredith was coming back at 9 to meet him, maybe not.
In one of her many stories, AK admitted "they just wanted to have some fun."
On December 1st she stated over the telephone, "It's stupid, I can't say anything else, I was there and I cannot lie about it."
The blood of both her and Meredith had been found in the bathroom together as well as on a kitchen knife that belonged to RS. There is ample evidence to show that she was involved in this vicious crime, along with both RS and RG. I think there is also ample evidence to show too that it was premeditated. So while it is okay to talk about Meredith Kercher and her sexual proclivities and whether or not she was involved in the party scene in Perurgia, she still lost her life resisting the sexual intentions of her assailants.
bpcl,
Interesting you feel that because AK and RS allegedly turned off their cell phones around the same time that this means that Rudy was at the cottage? I don't see the logic in that.
Whose story said they "just wanted to have some fun"?
"I was there and I cannot lie about it"....what does this mean? I was not at the cottage? I was not at Patricks club? I was not at RS? Who are we to conject into this?
The ample evidence you continue to quote is conjecture and "reported" information and/or information that you have taken all or partially out of context in order to satisfy your theory. I feel that you are so desperate to nail Amanda that you have lost touch with what is reasonable.
The blood is explained (all one or two drops) and the kitchen knife does not have a match that will stand up in court. These are facts and are why nobody is talking about the knife anymore. I bet you dont even know what type of blade is on the knife.
Please, give me one simple example that says she was involved with this crime....just one...and don't say it was her confessed statement....that will not make it through the trial either. I know Skep, you question this but you have to trust me on this.there are extenuating circumstances you are not aware of in regards to this.
Premeditated? By who? What motive? Strong word when you dont have ample evidence to show for this.
Truth is, Merideith Kercher was involved in the party scene and you can't say one way or the other as to whether she was sexually active or not...and neither can I. It doesnt matter because sex has nothing to do with this crime. I see a crime of powerlike rape but it doesnt have to include rape. Bcpl you have no basis for any of your accusations.
This morning...I told you Amanda had not been moved. When you find that out, you will know that I am probably 1 step ahead of you when it comes to some of the true facts. Having said this, you are totally unaware of many of the facts of this case and things that nobody here has even heard about. Sadly, I cant say certain things. When I say I cant say something, I am ether eluding that there are facts that support another theory or I am just flat out lying to you..the latter I have no idea as to its value as it would be a waste of my time.
I have alluded to this as ABDAR and over and over the continuation of quoting old tabs or "reported" information continues. Doing this gets you a bad case of what I call TABROIDS.
If everyone would take a step back...take a deep breath and take pieces of this case step by step and see the holes of what information is missing....maybe you would concede that the accusations that are made daily by some (not all) but a small few are not warranted. Some of you want Amanda to tell you what she is hiding from the investigators. Fine, that is up to you.but maybe she has nothing more to say because she has nothing to hide. Have you ever thought that she was there to try and help Mignini and Friends? Why would she have been there voluntarily? Have you ever thought that maybe the investigators pegged Patrick from Day 1 and just wanted someone to say anything that could be twisted and used to at least pull him in for questioning? Nobody knows the motives of the authorities there. They themselves have changed their story 2 times. Why is that ok for so many? Why would Amanda have said that the police were under so much pressure? That is not a normal thing to say about the police that are interrogating you. Why is their pressure her problem? What did they do to make her say they were under pressure? What did they say to make her feel they were under pressure?
I appreciate kermit, skep, sparrow, my friend ChrisM, and seattleite. I think you keep things in perspective and question with an open mind. We dont have to agree but we can be open minded about thingsand question everything. What purpose is served by being arrogant (me included). We are ALL ANGRY that Meredith was murdered. ALL of us are affected by this in some way and we want to know the truth. When I say we, I mean everyone here on this blog.
I would love to stay around and have reasonable dialog with people here. Many of you bring valid points to this discussion. Some people from all sides and angles have insight to this crime and I don't think people should be discounted because they may have access to the knox/mellas team or the prosecution team or any other insider to this crime.
I think of it this way. If I have insider information and buy up some stocks and score big, you would all be pissed....because i cheated...Some act this way even as you are reading this. Well if I have inside information, I don't want to be treated the same way. I would like to be able to answer questions in a way to help guide you to the truth without affecting my relationship(s). It sucks knowing things that could answer so many of your questions but I am not at liberty to expose certain things.
Ok...I spouted off enough now.
Goofy
Goofy,
May I ask you a question?
You can ask
Good, tell me if you know, what is the alibi for AK on the night of the murder. Tell me if you know where she was and who can vouch for her. This is not an offensive question. It is a legitimate question for me. So if you please, explain if you know the whereabouts of AK on the night of the murder and who can vouch for them.
Goofy... tabroids... did you make that up, or do others use it?
Bpcl,
Seems to me that this is the question everyone wants answered.
The computer forensics will answer part of this question (those will be back soon). The rest remains to be answered by Amanda and Rafael. Having the type of Alibi you so desire will not be eminent in regards to this case. If you are looking for such, you are not being reasonable.
As far as I am concerned, they were together at Rafaels flat. Nothing indicates that they were anywhere else.
The alibi (besides from each other) could be answered on Rafael's computer. I don't know. It is the investigators job to prove otherwise.
You don't have to answer that Goof, but if you're tabroid hater, I'm just aghast. AGHAST. Still, respectufully...
Goofy, why do you think Rafaelle changed his story, saying he wasn't sure if Amanda was with him from 9pm to 1am? I'm sorry, I don't remember if he changed this under interrogation or in his diary...
Sparrow,
I made it up back in the early days....I used it on the other 2 boards when I was moody..
Goofy, I thought that guy was a booming psycho. Abdar speaks in many voices.
Sparrow,
I think (if he changed his story) is no different than how Amanda's changed.
Look , I worked for CID for a time and I can tell you that we could get suspects to say all sorts of things. We lied to them to get them to say something we needed them to say. We were only looking for specific words or anything that could be twisted that would allow us to open up other investigations (normally around the sale of drugs or the distribution of drugs).
We could get a suspect to write just about anything. We could tell them to say what is on their mind and then have them sign it....then we used that against them. We even told them that if they helped us, we would help them in regards to their charges or how much time they might have reduced....even though we never would....we lied.
Goofy,
I beg your pardon. You have not answered my question and I am not being unreasonable. A computer cannot give her an alibi. I am terribly sorry.
The alibi (besides from each other) could be answered on Rafael's computer.
This is not an answer for me. I beg you to understand my point of view here. Please, for her sake and everything you desire for her, for all your passion, for the love of God, for the love of Meredith, for the love of the Kercher family, for the love of the Knox family, please, if she cannot give an account of her whereabouts, this is a big problem.
Seems to me that this is the question everyone wants answered.
You bet this is a question that everyone wants answered. I do not know how to convince you of the importance of it. What other words do you wish for me to use here,
If you read all of my posts that I have ever written here, you will see that this question is very, very important to me. I am only one person here, only one. But this question is the most important question for me.
And you must realize that RS has definitively stated that he was home alone at his computer. I humbly beg your pardon from my soul about this issue.
"We could tell them to say what is on their mind and then have them sign it....then we used that against them."
Got that. Can I ask what country you worked in Goof? Sorry if it's getting personal. Remember "Just Say No," if you like.
Goofy,
As far as I am concerned, they were together at Rafaels flat. Nothing indicates that they were anywhere else.
Their DNA has been found in the cottage, not only in blood but also, on clothing. That statement is simply not true.
bpcl,
the answer you seek is not obtainable. Not by eye witness.
It is not for me to confer as to what either says is their alibi. It won't matter whether they were at Rafael's or at the zoo. The police must place them at the crime scene and that just isn't happening.
I have faith in Amanda's story.
Let me ask you. Lets say She has nothing to do with this crime. If the panel of judges were to review and then submit to everyone that Amanda was not a party to this crime....will you still want an alibi?
bpcl,
what clothing?
United States....CID is Criminal Investigation Division (Army FBI). I worked on a drug suppression team.
Hi Abdar/Goofy,
Just a couple questions, about you this time.
CID = Criminal Investigation Division of the US Army?
Also you referred to your past in MP. is this the Military Police?
Vietnam or later?
Just curious....
Later....and I was "drafted" by CID
Goofy,
Sorry, I didn't see your answer before posting.
Goofy,
RS's DNA has been found/discovered on the brassiere of Meredith Kercher. AK's blood has been found mixed with the blood of Meredith Kercher on the bathroom sink. The DNA of Meredith Kercher and AK has been found on a kitchen knife at the flat of RS and this knife belonged to him.
Thanks Goofy, that "Just Say No," was a coincidence. I thought you might be from outside the US.
Goofy,
Why do you continually deny that there is evidence that points to AK being in the cottage? I just don't get it. Why is that so difficult for you to accept. You can tell me that you don't believe it to be true, but from all that I have read, it is true.
"Let me ask you. Lets say She has nothing to do with this crime. If the panel of judges were to review and then submit to everyone that Amanda was not a party to this crime....will you still want an alibi?"
I can only answer for me, but the answer is that if a panel of judges says she was not party to this crime, then she has no alibi to produce. She is free and clear in that case.
Let me ask you. Lets say She has nothing to do with this crime. If the panel of judges were to review and then submit to everyone that Amanda was not a party to this crime....will you still want an alibi?
Everyone of us, including the judges must do what they are required to do. I have lost many, many, many different fights in life. One must move on after this, just like you and I will do. But, there is one family that cannot move on and that is the Kercher family. AK would have to explain to them what her alibi is, not me, not anyone else either. The Kercher family lost someone they loved. AK must explain to them, IMHO
bpcl,
No, not on the brassiere...it was found on the metal link (or whatever they call it).....
It could have come fron anywhere from within that cottage. It was found well after the intial forensics and could be cross contamination....or could even come from RS helping fold clothes or maybe he was having an affair with MK......I am just saying, that DNA would not be reliable....and I am not saying he was having an affair......I am just trying to open your eyes to the many possibilities.
The bathroom DNA (blood of amanda) has no merit. Where was amanda bleeding from? Mignini said a nose bleed yet the blood splatter from that got cleaned up? I just don't by that story. I suspect the blood was already there and it mixed when amanda took the shower and she had no cuts or other marks that could have been bleeding.
The knife DNA is only a 1 in 5 match. That means that it matches you 1 out of 5 times as well. The question you should ask yourself is is that knife the murder weapon....to know that you must know what type of knife was used that killed MK
Goofy,
So if you were brought into custody for a crime you did not commit, you would bring witnesses forward to explain your whereabouts. Patrick Lumumba did it. And that is why he is not in custody today. AK has made numerous incriminating statements about her whereabouts; she framed a man for this crime. She has not been truthful to anyone from what I have gathered here. She has at least four different versions of what happened that night. When she was brought before the Magistrate to tell the truth she gave her statement once again, without duress and stated that she read pages from the German edition of a Harry Potter book. That book was later found to be at the cottage. You have faith in her story, I do not, because it is filled with untruths.
Goofy,
Please, I know you have an answer for everything. You win. Please, we will agreed to disagree.
Goofy,
You cannot open my eyes to possibilities until you give me an alibi that can be corroborated. I am sorry. It goes to the heart of this case. It means to me that she can say where she was that was different than the cottage. All these things that we have discussed here, goes to the heart of this case. Just please tell me where she was.
Goofy,
I think it is called a "clasp."
At the end of the day, the jury is still out on many issues, at least as far as I am concerned.
Like Steve, our host, I think the press coverage is confused and confusing. I don't put much faith in it, and yet I realize it is not all wrong.
I am patiently waiting for the investigation to wrap up. At this time, the suspects will be charged or cleared and we will know if there will be a trial involving any or all of these suspects or not.
One question I have asked before is if there will be a meeting of all three suspects, to clear the air? This has been mentioned many times. Do you know if this is in the works?
Goofy, you make compelling arguments. I can see the part where Amanda was being used to get to Patrick. But from the information we have their suspicion of Patrick comes from Amanda's own cellphone record, right? OR is there more that you know of?
And seeing that Patrick has been nearly cleared, why is Amanda still in jail?
bpcl,
She carried the HP book around like a bible....it was always with her and she took it back to the cottage when she went home. Why wouldn't it be there?
Goofy,
Your statement "she carried the HP book around like a bible." Is there corroborating testimony to that effect from someone other than Raffaele?
Goofy,
Oh Please...
Goofy,
Please, just give me her alibi, won't you?
Goofy,
It is a very simple question. Someone who carries a Harry Potter book around like a bible surely would be able to give an honest account of where she was that night?
Sparrow,
do you mean the "see you later" ?
I see people everyday and I say see you later when I might not see them for an hour, day, week, month or longer. It is an normal everyday expression here in the states....I think the perugian police jumped to conclusions....and I think this very simple phrase was mis-interpreted and is just another reason I questioned the ability of any interpreter that was used initially.
Sometimes I say see you later aligator.
What do you feel is so dark about this text message....or do you?
Or...sorry....are you refering to something else in regards to the cell phone records.
funny you bring that up. Everyone pegged Amanda as a guilty party because of the cell phone calls to Rudy. This went on for 3 months until ChrisM came on and finally said there were no records in evidence that linked RG and Amanda.
That charade lasted quite some time yet you must know I bit my tongue over and over and over everytime I heard about the calls between AK and RG.
As soon as that "reported" evidence became a non-factor, many moved on to the next best thing.
Sparrow...Im not dissing you here....I am thinking out loud....
Goofy,
Forget the phone records for a moment and let us know what her alibi is?
I asked if I could ask you a question earlier and it still stands. What is her alibi?
bpcl,
give Mignini a call. he knows her alibi thank god!
I don't have his number but maybe Frank at PS can get you the number.
Ok Ok...the truth is that her alibi is a secret. It's top secret and I don't know if it will be disclosed until trial.
Sparrow...Im not dissing you here....I am thinking out loud....
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 1:49 am | #
I never thought "See you later" was significant. All that you said about that, I agree with. My thinking was, from the information we have, that they suspected Amanda had something to do with it, and that more people were involved, therefore her cellphone calls, especially that night, were important to them. Seeing PL on her phone, he is now a suspect. They interrogate for hours and push for the outcome they want, which is that PL was involved. They then use that to arrest PL.
You suggest they were using AK to get to PL, but don't say if the above is the reason, or if there was another.
Skep,
I don't know the answer to that question. All I know is that she kept that book with her all the time.
I think it would be reasonable that she had it for her overnight at RS and brought it home with her the next day.
Goofy,
Top secret, really now. You amaze me with your responses. First her alibi was on the computer, next it was she was with RS and now this. You are beginning to sound like her. Please answer this question for me. Why has she had at least four different versions of what happened that night?
Goofy,
The text message "see you later" WAS in Italian, so I don't think interpretation/translation would have been a problem per se. The expression is as vague in Italian or French as in English. Personally, I think the press ran with this more than the police.
I'll say it again: linguistic skills that far surpass anything most of us can imagine are available in Perugia. Le problme n'est pas l, as we say in French.
Goofy,
Your response to the question about the issue of the Harry Potter book defy all explanation.
Sparrow,
Cette conversation avec cette personne est incroyable. Il ne peut pas dire ou a refuse de donner une explication plausible de l'emplacement d'AK sur la nuit de meurtre. C'est completement fou
SB, Sorry, that message was for you.
Cette conversation avec cette personne est incroyable. Il ne peut pas dire ou a refuse de donner une explication plausible de l'emplacement d'AK sur la nuit de meurtre. C'est completement fou
SB,
Est cette personne avec qui je parlais vraiment pour être cru ? Que pensez-vous?
Bpcl, I was wondering how you knew I don't speak French, but can read it quite well. It's a talent I don't understand myself.
Sparrow,
I don't know if a call to PL was the reason for the arrest but, I would want to test out all theories as to why a happened.
I continue to read statements that always have said "could have" and "visions". These are words that are similar to those I have heard before when questioning suspects.....you know like....I could have thrown them out the window of the car, they could have thrown a gun in the lake....someone could have robbed us of our drugs.....
Under the threat of serving a long time behind bars, and you is lead to believe that you have been implicated in a crime (but don't know how), you tend to cooperate because you are scared for your life....so you try to help create possible reasons to explain a situation you have no knowledge of...It just happens.
Oceania,
Please explain this when you get chance. You are only one who's been there and you seem very insightful.
"I do have many other thoughts on other aspects, such as why the phones were thrown were they where, after driving past the area yesterday but I don't have time to share those now."
bcpl,
If you didn't figure it out, I am no longer having dialog with you.
Sparrow,
It was an honest mistake on my part. I wanted to send it to Skeptical Bystander, however I put your name there. I have no idea why I even did that.
Goofy,
I think it is safe to say that you and I can agree to disagree on this issue of where AK was on the night of the murder.
I continue to read statements that always have said "could have" and "visions". These are words that are similar to those I have heard before when questioning suspects.....you know like....I could have thrown them out the window of the car, they could have thrown a gun in the lake....someone could have robbed us of our drugs.....---Goofy
Yes, I got this from your other post and understand it. I understand how she could have come around to the PL story if that's what they were pushing for. But in your other post, you implied the police were using Amanda to get to PL. So I was wondering why, other than his presence on her phone, they might do that. I thought you might have more.
But then that brings us to the fact that they've let PL go, finding no evidence against him. But Amanda is still in jail. I guess that's the problem I have with Amanda's situation. If there was no evidence, wouldn't they let her go, as they have let PL go? Especially since they have Rudy, with his DNA all over the crime scene? Why would they continue to keep Amanda, unless they have some evidence?
It was an honest mistake on my part. I wanted to send it to Skeptical Bystander, however I put your name there. I have no idea why I even did that.
bpcl | 02.20.08 - 2:16 am | #
I know, I was just joking with you. I could read it, but I don't speak French.
Sparrow,
I am suggesting that they used to to get to a position to question him.
funny, do you know how many alibis he needed to get release? If you don't, that info would make you say hmmmmmmmmm. Maybe it was never posted and if it was not, I can't say....but when I heard....I said hmmmmm
Sparrow,
Thank you very much. The conversation I had previously, began on a earnest note. If you scroll back you will see. I just wanted to have an explanation for the whereabouts of AK on the night of the murder and who might be able to vouch for her. That is important don't you think? It defies explanation how someone who is currently in prison as you say would not be able to provide that, given the gravity of the situation.
In reality, IMO, AK and RS had an alibi where they could have corroborated themselves together. For better or for worse for them, RS broke ranks, either by himself, or his father, and stated that he was alone. No crime is perfect, and now neither of them have an alibi that can stand up.
Sparrow,
I believe they need to wait for the computer forensics to return so they can evaluate the results and then determine next steps.
Also, her "statements" I am sure are also an issue for the panel.
I think that once everything comes back, the panel can get together again and make more difinative decisions.
funny, do you know how many alibis he needed to get release? If you don't, that info would make you say hmmmmmmmmm. Maybe it was never posted and if it was not, I can't say....but when I heard....I said hmmmmm
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 2:24 am |
Well, I know he had to get a lot of witnesses, and part of that was because time of death was so broad, so I see where you're going with that... if one were to be home alone and have no witnesses that's trouble. But it was the witnesses combined with the lack of evidence of him at the house that got him off, I suppose. Okay, I get your point.
Beep and Goofy, you're talking to each other and not me up there, right? At bpcl | 02.20.08 - 2:26 am | and Goofy | 02.20.08 - 2:28 am |?
Sparrow,
I just got tired of talking about Amanda's alibi with bpcl. I doesn't matter what I say, bcpl is too obsessed with that for now...
So I told bpcl that I was not longer interested in dialog with him/her
Im out....sparrow....nice discussion.
Catch you next time I hope....Spec to.
Goofy, from the info we have, I think it was what was described as Amanda's suspicious behavior that put her on the suspect list, and her call to him on the cellphone that got PL in trouble. Whether the police were right or wrong, I think that's why they brought her in. But if you have another theory, I'd like to hear it.
Sparrow,
I ask Goofy to provide an explanation if it was known, about the whereabouts of AK on the night of the murder. Whether or not AK had anyone who could vouch for her, just to say, hey she was with me, from this time to this time. We were doing this and here are our witnesses. An alibi that can be vouched for, was never given. The current alibi from AK was that she was with RS, the entire night, smoking dope, making love, watching a book, reading Harry Potter, etc. The only problem with this alibi is that RS has stated quite definitively that he was home alone, on his computer; surely a contradiction in terms. One of these two, or both, are simply lying.
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 2:35 am |
Okay, I searched up and saw why you wrote that to me. We will wait for the panel meeting.
Nice talking to you too. Goodnight.
I ask Goofy to provide an explanation if it was known, about the whereabouts of AK on the night of the murder. Whether or not AK had anyone who could vouch for her, just to say, hey she was with me, from this time to this time. We were doing this and here are our witnesses. An alibi that can be vouched for, was never given. The current alibi from AK was that she was with RS, the entire night, smoking dope, making love, watching a book, reading Harry Potter, etc. The only problem with this alibi is that RS has stated quite definitively that he was home alone, on his computer; surely a contradiction in terms. One of these two, or both, are simply lying.
bpcl | 02.20.08 - 2:38 am
Yeah, I understand. But if you read through his explanations again, you might see that he was being pretty candid and rational. Read especially what he said about working with the CID. I've understood for awhile now how Amanda could have been led to the PL accusation. And now Goofy suggests that it's possible that RS was led to say AK wasn't there for part of the night, in the same way. This may be true or not. The idea is to keep an open mind. As you say, there are lies, or untruths, but how did these two come to tell them? And there's the problem of an alibi. Sometimes innocent people simply don't have an alibi, because they were alone. And as you've said AK and RS messed up their own alibi, by changing their stories...
Sparrow,
May I ask you a personal question?
Sure.
Sparrow,
Throw out this case for a moment if you will. We are two people just talking about life say. I want to ask you this question. Suppose someone you really trusted, say yout significant other, lied to you in a critical situation, a situation that was important to you. How would you feel? Would you not want to know the truth? Would you not wish to know why this person mislead you. And the most important question, would you ever trust this person again?
Fundamentally, our word is all we have; just like you and I are talking here now. We trust one another; the words we are using we trust. If a person lies once, why you can forgive can you not? But what happens when a person lies over and over and over again. Surely you cannot tell me you will believe them the next time they talk. Surely you cannot tell me that you would confide with them about your thoughts or emotions or say, your innermost feelings. Sparrow, we are all accountable for what we say and do. If not, then we are no better than beast on this planet. Everything is fair game, it becomes survival of the fittest. We might as well go back to the beginning of time. Do you know what the real 'sin' is in the story of Adam and Eve. It is that they wanted one more thing. It was not good enough for them that they were in paradise itself; no, they had to have that apple. And that was not the worst part of it all. The worst part of it was that when they were asked to account for their actions, the man blamed the woman, the woman blamed the devil and personal accountability was lost.
This then is the story of RS and AK. Two folks who in my opinion wanted more, each one, in their own words, blaming the other, neither one willing to step up and take accountability for their actions. This is why I stick to the alibi issue. It is to me, the heart of this case, it is an issue of accountability. I am so sorry I see it that way, honestly.
You don't have to be sorry for that, bpcl. I understand your position. But it's true that sometimes an innocent person can have no alibi. Then he must hope that there's evidence of the real perpetrator.
As far as the lies go, I agree with you in regards to our personal lives. But people can be really confused and led to believe things that aren't true and doubt things that are true when others use powerful tactics against them. Goofy is suggesting that this is why AK and RS have told conflicting stories. I am agreeing that this may be true. Personally I believe it is true in Amanda's case. That doesn't mean I'm convinced she's innocent. I just don't know. There's more than one possibility. I also don't believe the police in Perugia want to convict an innocent person in this case. They might really have evidence against those two, or they might falsely believe they're guilty.
There's a man who recently got out of jail, after many years. He was convicted of murdering his parents when he was a teenager. He confessed to this crime, but recanted almost immediately. The prosecution used the confession and got him convicted. It turns out that the police used very hard tactics against the kid, and although it hasn't been proven, it looked like they didn't care if he was guilty, they just wanted to convict him. Anyway, they used one of the tactics that Goofy mentioned. They told him a lie. He was asleep when his parents were shot. He knew this. His father survived a short while, but died in the hospital. The police told the kid that his father had whispered to them, before he died, that his son had shot him. So, the kid started to doubt himself. He was asleep, but what if he really did it and didn't remember it? Once the seed of doubt was planted, they pushed for a full confession and got it. Why did he doubt himself after that lie was told to him? He said it was because his father never lied to him, so if his father said he did it, he must have done it, even though he had no recollection of it. Someone out there might have the name of the guy on this case. I'm not sure and too lazy to look it up. But do you see how an innocent person can be led to say things that aren't true? It doesn't necessarily mean they're liars, sometimes it means they've been manipulated.
--------------------------
Ok Ok...the truth is that her alibi is a secret. It's top secret and I don't know if it will be disclosed until trial.
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 1:54 am | #
--------------------------------
Goofy / Abdar.... so based on the above it is fair to say that if AK's 'REAL' Alibi is a secret and will not be known until court that means thats he will be sitting in her jail cell for next 9 months awaiting her chance to speak the truth.... is this a tactic or game to her and her team?
Sparrow - You were right about my feelings and I resisted posting again last night as I could see where it was going to... and on waking up and I was not surprised with the exchanges.... sadly 
Sparrow,
I have no doubt that cases such as you speak about, have existed in the past, exist now and will continue to exist in the future. We are not perfect, the law is not perfect, the Police are not perfect and our perceptions are not perfect. I am an engineer by training and profession Sparrow; in fact, I am in many ways a scientist. We create theories about the way things work, and if the theories are good predictors we keep them and enhance them, if they are bad theories, i.e., they are not good predictors, then they are discarded and hopefully, newer ones take their place. It is a great self-correcting mechanism to say the least. As of this moment, we have a situation where two people have systematically lied about their actions. From a scientific point of view, their lies have prevented this case from moving forward in my opinion. Are you to have me believe that some inner force, some unknown quantity. some top secret information, as Goofy would have us believe, is forcing them to say things differently then what is really true? Are you to have me believe that somehow, the forces of nature have conspired against them, to put them into a place, not of their choosing? I have learned a long time ago, from someone close to me, that a thief and a liar go together. And this is not just about money; this was about a precious life that has been taken. And because both RS and AK have systematically lied about this case, from the get go, even though they have had ample time to explain their actions, it is my belief that the two of them are responsible for the death of Meredeth Kercher. Sparrow, it is good for me to enjoy your the pleasure of your conversation, I will have to look for your response on the morrow. I wish you well and look forward of course.
bpcl
They are only in custody know for the following reasons:
1) They are likely suspects in the murder of Meredith
2) They are innocent, but their lies have resulted in them being detained as the lies are implicating them in the murder of Meredith
I am sure that if they tell the truth about the evening and they are innocent then they will be released....
They have plenty of opportunity to reveal the truth or 'secrets' as hinted by Goofy / showmeyoursources / abdar....
I look forward to that day
I continue to have full faith in the Italian Police and legal system and justice will be served in this case.
I also was very sad to hear about Merediths mother.
Sparrow...
"And as you've said AK and RS messed up their own alibi, by changing their stories..."
Also RS changed his story on instructions from AK. Once he realised that story had no credibility he changed back into 'protection' mode.
I still have an open mind believe or not Sparrow.. but these 2 act guilty.. someone stated about a spider getting tangled in their own web of lies until they do not have a leg to stand on... sums it up nicely.
I know that Goofy / Abdar / Whoisthemonsterof perugia / showmeyoursources is legit (as per Steve) but everything he states has nothing to do with facts and is based on some of the stories coming out of AK's mouth.... now I would not like to stake my mortgage on what she has been saying from her prison cell...
Kind regards
I'll say it again: linguistic skills that far surpass anything most of us can imagine are available in Perugia. Le problme n'est pas l, as we say in French.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.20.08 - 1:58 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm a translator.
You do not have to be in Perugia to be translating for someone in Perugia, you do not even have to be in Italy, there are people translating to and from Italian, based everywhere around the world.
The following link is of a Professional Translation Website, you can find ANY language combination on it, in any field you need.
http://www.proz.com/italian-to-e...ish-
translators
The numbers apply to the amount of translators available on that site in those fields/areas of expertise.
How uninformed to imagine that the very country that brought forth the language (Latin) our English is greatly based on, having roots in Latin as well as Greek, is somewhow some stoneage place where they have some little old lady speaking in broken English, sat at a desk with a typewriter made in 1910, translating every single document needed doing, in all languages. She operates with an infuse of espresso permanently in both of her arms.
Old Lady (she translate all languages-she clever) Excuse a me, let a me a take my dictionary, ow you say? I no know, I have the mucho work amor, I not to cope. Poor Perugia, we very behind you thinka eh? you Amelicano, think evelone Chinese or Mehicano no have book but we hadda da booka before you, mine froinda. Give us a da credit a likkle bit, no?
Italian to English translators:
Advertising / Public Relations (1351) Aerospace, Aviation, Space (234) Agriculture (475)
Livestock / Animal Husbandry (142) Anthropology (350) Archaeology (314) Architecture (573) Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting (1063) Astronomy & Space (147) Finance (general) (111
Automation & Robotics (320) Automotive / Cars & Trucks (60Biology (-tech, chem,micro) (481) Botany (219) Construction / Civil Engineering (552) Business/Commerce (general) (1732) Materials (Plastics, Ceramics, etc.) (394) Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs (107 Chemistry; Chem Sci/Eng (396) Poetry & Literature (1205) Cinema, Film, TV, Drama (1264) Textiles / Clothing / Fashion (729) Telecommunications) (825) Computers (general) (113 Computers Hardware (574) Computers Software (821) Computers Systems, Networks (555) Law Contract(s) (1061) Cooking / Culinary (1045) Cosmetics, Beauty (659)
Medical Dentistry (213) Media / Multimedia (931) Economics (987) Education / Pedagogy (1173) Electronics / Elect Eng (502) Energy / Power Generation (465) Engineering (general) (750) Engineering Industrial (454) Mechanics / Mech Engineering (600) Nuclear Eng/Sci (105) Environment & Ecology (843) Esoteric practices (163) Fisheries (99) Folklore (43
Food & Dairy (861) Forestry / Wood / Timber (192)Furniture / Household Appliances (510)
Games / Video Games / Gaming / Casino (46 Mining & Minerals / Gems (14Genealogy (102) General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters (1393) Genetics (205)Geography (509)
Geology (183) Government / Politics (1031) Photography/Imaging (& Graphic Arts) (341)
Medical Health Care (595) History (993) Tourism & Travel (193 Human Resources (795)
Idioms / Maxims / Sayings (429) Insurance (430) International Org/Dev/Coop (723)Internet, e-Commerce (901) Investment / Securities (28 Metallurgy / Casting (215) IT (Information Technology) (869) Journalism (947) Real Estate (429) Law (general) (1203)
Law Patents, Trademarks, Copyright (615) Law Taxation & Customs (40Linguistics (109
Transport / Transportation / Shipping (726) Management (854) Manufacturing (513) Ships, Sailing, Maritime (243) Marketing / Market Research (1127) Mathematics & Statistics (220) Medical (general) (1137) Medical Cardiology (295) Medical Instruments (307) Medical Pharmaceuticals (573) Meteorology (0) Metrology (77) Military / Defense (231) Music (742)
Names (personal, company) (206) Nutrition (44 Petroleum Eng/Sci (232) Other (364)
Paper / Paper Manufacturing (152) Patents (142) Philosophy (452) Physics (15 Printing & Publishing (489) Psychology (595) Religion (550) Retail (317) SAP (95) Science (general) (722) Slang (252) Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. (879) Sports / Fitness / Recreation (649) Surveying (182) Wine / Oenology / Viticulture (546) Zoology (170)
Excuse em whaaaaaar, avec le petit fleur, mon ami, la mio Francaise non e troppo bene, lingo, wee wee, si si, I not to speak very good the French.
They are fighting over the assignments, excuse em whaaaar
Law (general) (1203)
Law Patents, Trademarks, Copyright (615) Law Taxation & Customs (40
http://www.proz.com/directory/?p...ation=&
keyword=
Italian to English (6989)
English to Italian (10773)
http://www.proz.com/directory/?p...ation=&
keyword=
1/ These figures concern only the amount of translators who happen to have put their details up on ProZ, there are many more translators.
2/ The details concern only the amount of translators resident in Italy.
The amount of translators based worldwide - like an Italian/English or English/Italian, sworn translator, specialized in any field - adds up to many more.
John T
I think that translation has not been an issue at all in this case and that is a bit of a smoke screen
Key issue(s) have been:
1) Telling the truth
2) Identifying difference between a lie and something that actually happended
3) Interpretation of the reality
4) Undertstanding the implication of lies and false accusations
"There ain't nothin' more powerful than the odor of mendacity...You can smell it. It smells like death."
Tennessee Williams, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
New Yorkers were given a crash course in the meaning of the word mendacity and where to find it by Alicia Colon, a columnist for The New York Sun:
"The first time I heard the word 'mendacity' was in the film 'Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.' I loved the way Burl Ives's character spits out the word as something vile and unacceptable.
"Unfortunately, we live in a society where untruthfulness is routinely accepted and even mandated by politicians, union leaders, and members of the press. New York is the headquarters of the biggest producer of mendacity, the New York Times."
Well...after reading all of that discourse with Goofy I feel strangely....uninformed.
Michael....
I think that was his intention.. and he certainly succeeded!!
He is doing the same on all blogs at the moment
Boy, if I were sitting in jail for months, during the holidays, away from my family and home, accused (not formally but come on) of the murder of my roommate, and I had a top secret alibi which, if provided, could get me out of jail lickity split, back to the US, and help the authorities in the investigation of a terrible murder, and bring some peace to a family (Meredeth's) who are living the worst nightmare they couold ever imagine, I am pretty sure I would be screaming from the rooftops this top secret alibi. I wouldn't be waiting to spring this alibi at a trial which might not occcur for many, many, many months. If I had an alibi I would be screaming it to the world! Amanda is screaming Beatles songs. Weird.
In fact, if I had this alibi which could stop breaking the hearts of my own family, I wouldn't be holding it in. Too bad for everyone these days that first priority is getting away with something, by blaming something else, instead of standing up and doing what is right by God.
Jumpy
I think that 'do the right thing' is something that we should shout at the top of our voices.......
"Cette conversation avec cette personne est incroyable. Il ne peut pas dire ou a refuse de donner une explication plausible de l'emplacement d'AK sur la nuit de meurtre. C'est completement fou
bpcl | 02.20.08 - 2:07 am | # "
Dsole bpcl, j'tais dj partie hier soir et donc je n'ai vu ton message que ce matin. Oui, c'est frustrant mais en mme temps, a te donne une ide de la base sur laquelle la dfense sera btie. Le problme, comme tu imagines est que tout dpendra de la crdibilit de nos deux suspects, qui sont dpendants l'un de l'autre pour l'tablissement de leurs alibis. Et leur crdibilit reste prouver compte tenu de leurs revirements successifs, sans parler des incompatibilits patentes entre les dclarations des deux.
And now in English for the rest:
The argument will clearly be that the methods used to obtain these statements was such that the two "informed persons" were broken down and made to tell lies. Further, that if you discard those lies as having been obtained under duress, their stories are consistent. This means they are credible, honest people who spent the night together at Raffaele's place, unless the police can demonstrate otherwise. That's where circumstantial and other evidence will come into play (the witness, if he or she exists, who saw and spoke with AK at 20:30 and so on).
So the admissibility of those statements will be critical. But for me, so will something else.
If you remember, Amanda Knox wrote a voluntary statement in English to all police and investigators (on November 22, I think), stating that she wasn't sure about anything she had said on the night of Nov 5 and morning of Nov 6, that she was hit on the head when she messed up, and that she has confused memories of the night in question but is sure that she did not kill her flatmate. This, she writes, is her best version of the truth. It may well be.
That's one reason I asked Chris if her confused memories were drug related, if she had suffered in the past from memory lapses, and if she had since regained a clear memory of where she was and what she did on the night of November 1.
As for Goofy, I appreciate his candor about some things. His CID credentials, for example. The fact that he's the one who has written those (sorry goofy) nasty posts on Frank's blog signed Tabroid Hater, etc.
And he knows some stuff before we do, because he gets it straight from Chris, his friend.
He has presented us here with his plausible alternative explanations of such things as the Harry Potter book, and it is up to us to decide if we would buy them as members of a jury.
Re John T's comments about the availability of translators: Yes, you don't have to be anywhere in particular these days to provide written translations if you have the linguistic expertise and IT tools. The website referred to offers proof that you get what you pay for and that there are translators for every budget and every need. There are both good and bad translators out there. There is even babelfish! The issue was really about the availability of qualified simultaneous interpreters, i.e. the real human beings who translate in real time. I have friends who work freelance for the police as interpreters. They are highly skilled people. Perugia is a tour of Babel, a veritable linguistic melting pot--I doubt finding qualified interpreters would be a problem. And unless the questioning of Amanda Knox was taped, I'm not sure how anyone would prove that the interpreter got it wrong, if that's what is being argued now that we seem to have established that an interpreter was present. My guess is that Abdar/Goofy doesn't really know more than we do on this point, but is suggesting a line of attack that the defense may be considering. That's useful information.
Sorry for such a long post.
Love Wolf,
The NY Sun accusing the New York Times of being a producer of mendacity is kind of like the Daily Mail accusing the Guardian or the BBC of fabricating lies.
I'm not sure I get your point, though.
You and Goofy got into a scrape. It's not surprising given that you represent opposite ends of the spectrum.
Maybe the best solution is to avoid getting into these scrapes by simply ignoring the comments you find offensive. That way, our host Steve, who has other worries right now, won't have to step in so often. As an added benefit, Abdar/Goofy would be able to focus on answering our case-related questions rather than getting into schoolyard brawls.
Goofy (when you come back),
Here's something I have always wondered, and I think your past (or present?) work with CID puts you in a perfect position to answer. Surely you are well-versed in the techniques used to extract information from people who are being questioned. Sometimes these techniques involve intimidation, threat of violence, maybe actual violence....
If people who are broken down in this way will eventually say anything, then what good is the information obtained? In other words, why bother using psychological or physical torture to obtain information or intelligence that is apparently of little or no truth value?
I have never understood this.
The alibi being top secret was sarcasim....There is no hidden agenda or knowledge....the sarcasim was for bpcl. The begging for an answer to the alibi question got annoying.
One other thing. For those who keep quoting things as coming from her mouth (Amanda), Please (as I stated before) show me where I can see the entire transacripts of those 14 hours. ALL of them...not a couple of sniblets. Since I know they have not been made available, I again say that these quotes about what has been said and that they are lying and not being truthful are out of order. Transcripts first, truth second. How could it be any other way?
Now, if you have the 14 hours of transcripts, please share them.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.20.08 - 11:34 am |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here here or is it ear or here?
okay,
I sream you scream we all scream for I scream.
what I want to say,
Quote from you Skep:
The issue was really about the availability of qualified simultaneous interpreters, i.e. the real human beings who translate in real time. I have friends who work freelance for the police as interpreters. They are highly skilled people
Unquote.
Interpretting is a differewnt kettle of fish from translating, not every translator is an interpreter, and the examinations are two different sets/things.
I woiuld not want to interpret, it is'nt allowed to be forgetful, you have to come up with the goods immediately, your vocabulary must be more than adequate, you cannot be seen to bve looking in a dictionary to see what the client is saying.
The most important point here is:
Interpretters used by police and courts of law are in no way allowed to be anything like amateurs, they must be SWORN interpreters, because they cannot be used by defence, to say, Hey the interpreter was inadequate, look he has not even got the right credentials.
This is why, only sworn interpretters. No mistakes.
They, the sworn translators and interpreters, earn the highest rates, someone who translates but is not sworn in, may earn for example 10 cents a word but a sworn translator will earn 30 or 40 cents or even more, depends on a few different things.
Interpreters, for example, ones who are called up to go and stand between the police and the defendant when an arrest has been made, earn vast amounts of money, paid on an hourly basis, with a minimal charge and high travelling expenses too.
Great work if you are good at it and don't mind translating and interpreting what all kinds of potential criminals say, their well-being depends on your work too.
I heard screams, I scream.
In walks the interpreter with Ben and Jerry's.
Skep,
That is easy....sometimes the powers at be insist that you come up with answers "yesterday". Sometimes the investigator believes they have already cracked the case and just try to force the suspect into telling all.
Remember some of Amanda's "words" said that the police were under pressure. As I stated before, what would have given a 20 year old this idea that the police were under pressure?
Sometimes you get a clean confession (not always the full story but enough to finish the investigation). Many times the information obtained was not actually going to be used against the suspect but more in order of going after someone else. Remember, we were always looking for where a selling was getting their stuff. We had no interest in the little guy. I can't tell you how many times we forced information out of a suspect that lead to knowwhere. It happened all the time because they just made the stuff up to get us out of their face.
interpreter interpreting
one p god darn
Who put that there?
Must be the small people hiding in the machine again (keep changing my spelling) like they used to in the TV when I was a kid. I knew they were in there. How they got in, I asked many times, nobody knew the answers.
Who knows the answers to all of this? I wish I did.
selling = seller
Amanda had been working every night except Mondays then, six nights a week in Le Chic.
She said so on her blog
Heaven and earth meet in acts of compassion
Hey Now, Goofy.
Just wondering and I'm jumping in here so forgive me since I see you were talking to Skep...
but in reading back you state that using Amanda's "words" mean nothing unless we can produce 14 hours of interrogation transcripts. Yet you just said to recall Amanda's "words" about the police being under pressure.
So, are we to believe that some of the "words" coming from Amanda that have been released were her "words"? You can see how one could be easily confused here.
Also, totally off topic here, but you picked the name and noone has ever answered this question for me. Now, it's a given that Pluto was a dog (walked on all fours, wagged his little tail) but what WAS Goofy supposed to be?
John T,
We are on the same wavelength. I swear, as a translator, that what you say about sworn translators is absolutely true.
And speaking of I scream, did you see the Jim Jarmuch movie Down By Law? if so, do you remember the "Ice Cream" scene (Roberto Benini, John Lurie and Tom Waits, playing cards in the prison cell they share)? Great movie, great scene.
Thanks Abdar for your reply. I'm still left wondering why these techniques are used if the information has no value. And I think Corinne's question is a good one. It has dogged us throughout this case.
Me finks she wood have bin pritty upset about losing her job, after all, it wasn't just a job, it was a position, working too, in a place, aids integration, and people in bars, are often the centre of things.
Manyt people in bars serving, get on a big ego trip, I've seen it, some even think it is all about them, playing at being Mr or Ms popular, I mean, they do have a certain amount of power.
Often women are employed, attractive women, simply because their presence aids sales.
I've known places where the girls were told, they had to smile all the time at customers.
In bars, guys who drink, do flirt, they think they have a chance, especially after boozing, but, the girls behind the bar, aren't stupid, and the ones doing their work well, mostly do not mix business with pleasure.
Still, sex is misused, I do not like that, never agreed with that.
Telling girls to smile all day at customers in that way, is sexual discrimination.
The men do not get told to smile at the customers all day, that's is why is is discriminarory, towards women.
Corrine,
Yes I agree and see your point.
I said "words" because I do not know that she said any of what was "reported" by any of the media which is where all the statement information seems to exist and quotes are coming from.
I personally believe some of the "reported" information is most likely some of the things she said but none of it can be put into context without the transcripts and full knowledge of what was going on during that time frame. It appears to me that only incriminating information was extracted.
All I am trying to do is just show the relationship in context to the situation. It's just my own theory.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.20.08 - 12:24 pm | #
And speaking of I scream, did you see the Jim Jarmuch movie Down By Law? if so, do you remember the "Ice Cream" scene (Roberto Benini, John Lurie and Tom Waits, playing cards in the prison cell they share)? Great movie, great scene.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Exacto, that's where I stole it from.
Who is that actor in Dirty H, oops, yeah I remember, Clint Eastwood, I'm sure he was in the film or is that another one? it was an Italian in the cell who made the joke on the word play, and got the whole prison chanting it, until it drove the warders bananas and the cons got their ice-cream.
Goofy/Abdar -
You seem to have put a lot of emphasis on the computer records when they finally come to light. Can you perhaps tell us why Amanda refused to hand over the password to her computer?
Goofy.
Okay. (I think) Given what you have said, would it be fair to assume that Amanda ~might~ have stated she was hit on the head for not answering things correctly but she seemed to imply that she understood them doing that because they were under pressure? But then, she ~might~ never have said either, she might never have pointed the finger at the first (black) man she thought of, etc. etc. etc. and these Italian police and Mignini in particular are truly inept and threw her in jail because they don't give a hoot about finding out who really killed or was involved in Meredith Kercher's murder and might as well pin it on an innocent American? I don't mean to be sarcastic but none of this makes any kind of sense whatsoever. I'm no great defender of law enforcement (I'm American and let's face it, this country is becoming a police state at an alarming rate) but by the same token, I believe there are good cops and bad cops everywhere. I have a hard time believing that what has been leaked has come from the prosecution entirely. As a matter of fact, it all seems so ridiculous that one (at least this one) wonders if these are the only defense that the suspects have to try and work with. I mean you no disrespect, Goofy, but your answer to my first post further muddied the water.
Back to occasional lurking...
First, to see what was on the hard drive you don't need a password. Good forensics techs know this. Why would they bother asking for one if they knew what they were doing? If she gave them a password (and I don't know if she did or didn't), the would have turned on her machine and started it up and maybe destroyed important information. It is better to just take out the drive and make it a secondary on another machine. Pretty simple and no password required.
"see you later" seems to be a good place to start as to why they may have thought Patrick was involved.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.20.08 - 11:34 am wrote:
"And unless the questioning of Amanda Knox was taped, I'm not sure how anyone would prove that the interpreter got it wrong....My guess is that Abdar/Goofy doesn't really know more than we do on this point, but is suggesting a line of attack that the defense may be considering."
It was all taped. And your impression is correct about what Abdar/Goofy knows and says. But at this point it isn't so much about this blog being a jury considering what is known/unknown or revealed/unrevealed - the trial hasn't even started. I'm more reminded of what it's like sitting in the lineup while surfing - waiting for the Big One. There's a lot of trash talk going on between strangers, semi-strangers, and maybe one or two guys who get some press, and we all have our opinion. Lots of trash talk. And you roll with it. But when the Big One arrives you have to deliver. Still waiting....
Jumpy and Honest Pete, welcome to the thread.
-
RE this computer password issue:
It may just be a courtesy to ask for someone's password, and surely the experts working with the police knew they did not need it to examine the computer.
For me, this is a non-issue. Why it was reported, as was RS's appearance to volunteer his, is something of a mystery.
I think it is part of the general tendency to read meaning into everything.
I could be totally wrong, of course, but I do know that passwords can be worked around if need be.
Kermit suggested that maybe the password was something that would be embarrassing to give out under the circumstances. I don't think he was implying anything sinister, but if your password is something everyone is going to scrutinize because of the context, I can see not providing it if I didn't have to.
Let's face it. This girl has lost nearly all of her privacy. I think some of it is of her own making; some of it has to do with the world we live in (myspace pages and so on); some of it has to do with the prying eyes of the media and the "no shame" school of journalism--which is prevalent but thankfully not applicable to all journalism.
Goofy/Abdar -
I understand and accept what you are saying in a technical sense. However, my question was more rooted in the idea of Amanda co-operating or not. You understand, if she 'did' refuse to give her password, she is kind of making a 'statement' about her willingness to co-operate?
Fly By Night: Yeah, it's getting mighty cold. I wish somebody would yell "Surf's up" pretty soon.
Goofy / Abdar / WITMOP / SOELTH / Etc / Etc / Chris's Mate / CID expert
"All I am trying to do is just show the relationship in context to the situation. It's just my own theory".
I am pleased goofy in what you are saying is just YOUR theory...
That has cleared up a lot of my misunderstanding of your postings and our scraps.
Best regards
Fly By Night:
I've been wondering about the persistent suggestion that it was not all taped. EU documents I have found regarding reforms in Italian law, many of them verbatim transcripts from formal hearings, lead me to believe that this is a requirement and so would have been done as a matter of course.
Did you get that information from a press source or some other source?
Well, if that text even existed (the "see you later" text), sure. That might explain why "they" thought Patrick was involved. What that doesn't answer is why they thought Amanda was involved. Again, while we don't know if she was held for 14 hours or not for 14 hours, other people it seems (again, we don't know for certain) were also asked questions for hours (I have seen it reported in normally reliable sources but then, who knows, right?-- that Filomena was questioned for 5 hours). Still, it would seem that because Amanda was for some reason, be it police stupidity or Mignini's superstitious mind, thought to know more than she let on, that is what ultimately led "them" to think Patrick was involved. Again, this all might or might not have happened.
Why do I feel like I'm at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party? More tea, move down, hello, I must be going...
John T,
No, Clint Eastwood was not in Down By Law. Another thing that makes the scene so funny is that the Italian guy (played by Roberto Benini) keeps getting the names of the other two cellmmates mixed up -- Jack and Zach.
Corinne,
Don't go. There's more tea coming! I've missed your voice. Please don't rush off because you're late, you're late, for a very important date.
Skep/Fly By Night -
I very much have the impression of the Italians that they do record everything as a matter of course...it's something that's been in their make-up for a very long time.
Corinne,
I am not going to say anymore about the statements. You will have to just wait and see what is going on with that....
Goofy
Can you confirm if Amanda was hit or not please?
Hit = Someone striking her with a hand or instrument......
Thanks
Goofy/Abdar -
You do like to tease and I'm not overly sure I like that. In terms of having to wait regarding the statements/alibis etc...how long for...until the trial itself, or the 1st April hearing?
Abdar / Goofy, let me give you a hand. I think I told Chris M about the unrectified confusion caused by the "photo" of Amanda "caught" on the carpark CCTV. Well, I found the evening newscast video:
http://video.centrodiascolto.it/...ideo/
211206.wmv
From 34" to 1'16", you see the journalistic "reconstruction". In particular, at 39" you see the lady journalist converted in "Amanda" in the classic CCTV image that was published even in serious papers as actually being Amanda,
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05...-perugia/
2.html
(you can see it was even published in the paper with the same TV station's logo in the lower right from the reconstruction news cast), even though its in daylight, and in a situation (walking out of the carpark) which doesnt mesh with Amanda's supposed movements (ie., walking down from Piazza Grimana / RS's place)
The CCTV images which should exist - and should be in ILE hands - would be from this camera which our own Italian TrueCrime Weblog poster Middie photographed (BTW, great photo) in a visit to Perugia back in December.
http://thumbsnap.com/v/bAPWyCiD.jpg
(keep clicking until you get an image which is more or less full screen size)
Middie's CCTV points directly at the road and the entrance gate to the cottage parking area from the street.
(This isn't new to us, we were talking about it extensively on Haloscan II, with those links) ... ((that's all I wanted to mention from that video. Proceeding beyond 1'16" is not going to please anyone, because on one hand at 1'34" is the famous b/w image of the crime scene and the victims leg, and at 2'15" is the famous AK drinking video))
--------
Okay Abdar / Goofy / etc. ... as Hannibal would say to his FBI friend "Quid pro quo", now its your turn to offer up / confirm something ...
First of all, let's summarize from the postings of the first part of yesterday (before I went to bed) - don't respond or comment on this unless you want to:
1) You may have pointed us (of course, you didn't tell us anything, we just guessed ) toward there being either a dead cat in the closet of the boys' downstairs apartment, or a stash of marijuana. If it's marijuana, we don't know if ILE found it or if the boys declared it missing. If it's the cat, say meow; otherwise, as Robert M would say, move your flower pot (or your pot flower).
2) You're indicating there's something amiss in The Sun / Daily Mail "bloody murder" (actually pink ILE solution) photo of the small bathroom, because that same liquid doesn't seem to be on the shower walls. Maybe you have an alternative explanation to mine (which you can or can't offer), but back in January we studied the Pink Solution photo:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle692368.ece
(click to photo number 2)
The Sun, quite alarmingly and incorrectly says: "Gruesome ... sink splattered with blood". (while there's nothing to fear about visible gore in the bathroom photo, I'm afraid that photo number 1, which is what appears on screen when you first load the web page IS very disturbing and full of the real, human blood of the victim. I have no problem in reminding myself every day of the tragedy which befell her. Skip over this photo.)
Well, there's another image that we studied back then, which I understand to be prior to The Sun / Daily Mail photo, and which corresponds to the first ocular examination of the crime scene, with ILE CSI markers.
http://img89.imageshack.us/
img89...bathroomar7.jpg
In the first ocular examination, you see a toilet and a bidet, but no shower. (In the later, Pink Solution photo, you see a shower and a bidet, but no toilet). It's clear that in the first ocular exam photo, the shower had already been removed, I assume to access potential evidence in the evacuation pipe, or to access hard-to-get potential DNA inside the glass/plastic panes of the shower stall. ((I dont think that dismantling the shower for that reason is something to get all excited about, like Joe-the-Sleuth on 20/20 getting rankled about the wardrobe doors being removed to access DNA on the inside)).
So ... the shower (which as a bathroom fixture isn't solid, but is just a couple of translucent plastic panes, and a ceramic floor plate) was taken out for better examination. Once examined, it was put back. No need to spray it pink ... or do you have a better explanation? (no challenge there to you, but I think that my thought process is okay).
(continued)
(cont'd)
-----------------------
I'm on a roll, bear with me ..
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 12:43 am | "Whose story said they "just wanted to have some fun"?"
I dont know if you're truly asking for the references, or you want to make the point that Amanda didn't say it outside of ILE "pressure". If its the former, here you are:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher108.xml
"We were drunk and we wanted to have some fun, we invited Meredith to join us," Knox said.
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...rdo-
amanda.html
"That evening, we wanted to have a little fun," she said. She, her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and the Congolese Diya Patrick Lumumba. "We invited her to do it." Diya "wanted" her. "Raffaele and I went to another room. Then I heard the screams ...".
------------------------
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 12:43 am | "I bet you don't even know what type of blade is on the knife."
I wont put up the photo of the knife, but its hanging around somewhere, it looks like a sharp kitchen knife. You later say: Goofy | 02.20.08 - 1:32 am | "to know that you must know what type of knife was used that killed MK". ... Okay, am I right in assuming (move the flower pot) that youre saying the importance isn't on the RS kitchen knife but the "real" murder weapon, which is a different object, maybe not even a knife, but a puncturing instrument something like a screwdriver? If that is the case, are you able to say if any such an evidence item (alternative murder weapon) has been found?
---------------------
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 12:43 am | "Have you ever thought that she was there to try and help Mignini and Friends? Why would she have been there voluntarily?"
I'm not quite sure what tone of voice you're using there. As a direct read, you're saying that she has voluntarily made declarations, and therefore is assisting the investigation. The more skeptical (no reference to you, Skep!) amongst us would refer to Amanda's December declaration in court, where she invoked her right not to declare. Even the prison chaplain had been saying things beforehand like (paraphrasing) "Amanda is ready to tell her truth". ((also, I agree, her password is not important for reading her disk. But as Skep and I have said, her password itself, like words in a diary, may hold information which is useful for the investigation)).
--------------------
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 1:32 am | "The bathroom DNA (blood of amanda) has no merit ... I suspect the blood was already there .... she had no cuts or other marks that could have been bleeding ... "
Brian the other day spotted this photo of Amanda on Nov.2 with either a blemish or a cut on her throat. (don't get angry at Brian!!). I don't want to suggest anything, as obviously, it would be speculation.
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/aprif...to.php?
id=12617
---------------------
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 1:49 am | "Sometimes I say see you later aligator."
Okay, "hasta luego" - see you later in Spanish (and as Skep said, in French and other languages) can be later in 5 minutes, in 5 days, or even never. I think at this point (and in fact since very early on) no one is placing Patrick in the crime. However, potentially he has some information of interest concerning perpetrators, their plans, or what happened, even if it's hearsay.
---------------------
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 2:28 am | "I believe they need to wait for the computer forensics to return so they can evaluate the results and then determine next steps."
Did Amanda use her PC at RS's? If so, did she have Internet access from RS's place? Is his connection ADSL modem (in principle, for one computer: his), or ADSL + router (multipuesto). I imagine that none of that possibility applies, as we see her computer on her desk in the cottage in the CSI video.
--------
Thanks for any replies / observations you are able to provide.
-
All,
Frank has just written an entry confirming that news of Amanda being moved did turn out to be false. More explanation there.
Also, he has said that the Polish witness exists.
Skep -
Thanks Skep....the Polish witness 'is' interesting.
Kermit -
Excellent sleuthing as always I have to say.
keeps getting the names of the other two cellmmates mixed up -- Jack and Zach.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.20.08 - 1:00 pm | #
^^^^^^
I may be mixing the films up then, I don't think I've seen that one but it sounds good, I get the bit about the mix up, I've often thought it'd be a pity if a certain person learned better English because the hilarious mistakes that happen would disappear, so I tended to teach them nothing.
Everyone take a big draw of breath... after those postings.... many thanks Kermit... lots to mull over eating my dinner....
Chicken Madras for me ... cold weather makes me want Indian nosh!
Someone called Jovanovic who has claimed to have met Amanda on the Corso Garibaldi at 20:40 (8:40 pm) on the night of the murder. Incidentally they are niether female or Polish...although the name sounds it.
Sparrow,
Whatever, why don't we close out this case and move on. Why don't we just have the Italian Police free the three people in custody and just have them tell the world, We are inept, we do not know what we are doing, the three persons we have in custody, well they are young, they tried to tell us something, but it was hard to understand. Let us pretend that nothing happened. We are not capable of doing anything to solve this crime. It was an accident. It happened by itself. Why are we even bothering to discuss it here anyway. What point are you making about this crime anyway? I suggest we close shop here now and just move on to some other thing going on in the looking glass.
Clint Van Zandt stated the reason they were able to put a time indication on the age of the blood (Amanda's) specimen found in the bathroom was because of the manner in which a drop of blood would and does dry, namely, it dries from the outside in.
Those indications to the age were clearly readable to the forensic team because the blood was so fresh.
Sorry, that message was meant for you SB, not Sparrow. I apologize.
OK, I can accept that Goofy/Abdar is a coworker of Chris Mellas' and yes, he may know particulars about Amanda and her family that we do not know.
But what I find curious is that he, the coworker, would be PRIVY to so much "inside information" about the case--especially Amanda's "secret alibi"
Frankly, I don't buy it.
I doubt that Amanda's family members would be sharing confidential defense information to an office buddy, with interesting credentials, no matter how close their connection to Goofy-Abdar were.
I assume that G-A is a well-intentioned, supportive friend. But as to KNOWING as much as he claims... I say there's a lot of "fumo, e poco arrosto." Or shall I say "a lot of shadow, little substance" to his dangling pieces of info. on this blog, and suggesting that he knows so much more.
My cynical side says, yeah, yeah, sure..."Amanda's secret alibi"...It can't be disclosed just now because Amanda the creative writing major, is still working on the plot, and the defense attorneys are editing it for credibility and consistency.
Furthermore, I couldn't agree more with Jummpy's comments below (if there were really a secret alibi that would serve to exonerate Amanda, but it is being withheld until trial.)
Jumpy wrote:
Boy, if I were sitting in jail for months, during the holidays, away from my family and home, accused (not formally but come on) of the murder of my roommate, and I had a top secret alibi which, if provided, could get me out of jail lickity split, back to the US, and help the authorities in the investigation of a terrible murder, and bring some peace to a family (Meredeth's) who are living the worst nightmare they couold ever imagine, I am pretty sure I would be screaming from the rooftops this top secret alibi. I wouldn't be waiting to spring this alibi at a trial which might not occcur for many, many, many months
The alibi being top secret was sarcasim....There is no hidden agenda or knowledge....the sarcasim was for bpcl. The begging for an answer to the alibi question got annoying.
It is nice to know that someone who believes in the innocence of AK can use friendly sarcasm when another innocent woman was brutally murdered. An alibi would be the most trusted and sacred thing to show, when one is accused of perfoming the former I daresay.
bpcl,
Move on!
Traduco,
Thank you for your post. It speaks volumes.
John T,
You have a good point. Can't remember what the story finally became but wasn't there some of Amanda's "words" that she either suffered a nosebleed (or was that Raffaele?) or was menstruating at the time? Again, while these may or may not be what she said, it still seems very unlikely that a drop of her blood and a drop of Meredith's blood just happened to get mixed up accidentally. Also, ~if~ Amanda's blood was just from her period, as a woman, I would like to know how she got a drop of it on the sink, unless womenfolk handle that time of the month in a very different fashion than womenfolk do elsewhere in the US of A.
Goofy, thanks. I was only trying to understand how you went from one instance to the next, using her words to disprove one thing then in the next post using them to prove another. I think I get it now.
Why? Because you cannot handle the truth?
Listen,
The SECRET ALIBI was just my attempt to get bpcl to get off the non stop repetative questions begging for an answer.
THERE IS NO SECRET ALIBI for those of you who don't understand my sarcasm.
Bpcl, didn't ask a stupid question, but the stupidness of continuing to ask the same question to me over and over and over and over deserved a stupid answer.
MOVE ON
Anyone here can post what their belief is about this case. We can use the quotes of the people involved. We are entitled to do that. Their words are all we have to go on at this moment.
Off Topic
Thanks, Skep. Make mine a Jasmine Green, honey AND lemon. Back from the land of inFLUenza...still a touch of the brain fever going on though.
One to make me larger and one to make me small~
I resent the sarcasm really because it goes to the heart of this case. Like you, these people have said things. What are we suppose to do? Ignore them, pretend they never existed. That we have no right to examine them or even analyze them. What are we suppose to do? AS I said before, we might as well close the discussion down because as you would have it, we have absolutely no right to consider anything that has been said by anyone even remotely connected to this case.
I still have an open mind believe or not Sparrow.. but these 2 act guilty.. someone stated about a spider getting tangled in their own web of lies until they do not have a leg to stand on... sums it up nicely. ---Love, Wolf
I agree Love, Wolf. What Goofy has explained did not convince me of their innocence, but it did explain how some of those lies could have happened. There are other things that keep me skeptical. That quote from RS, for one. About the Ivorian who would tell strange tales. RS should have been as happy and naive about the capture of the real killer as his father was, but he was not.
bpcl,
are you ok?
bpcl,
I'm not sure what you're responding to in your post for me.
I would like to know what happened to Meredith Kercher. I have doubts about the suspects currently in custody, mainly stemming from:
1. Problems with their alibis and stories about the night in questions
2. As Steve says, confused and confusing press coverage
3. Constant recourse by those who wish to exonerate them to shifting theories about the incompetency of the police, the supposed botched nature of the investigation, the unfairness of the Italian system, the demonic power of the prosecutor, first the absence of an interpreter and then the presence of one but surely someone incompetent, etc.
Having no access to information other than what the average citizen has, I find that there is not enough to prove whether or not two of the three suspects were involved or not. And from what I have seen and read, none of the three is a perfectly or even acceptably reliable narrator.
But in the interest of fairness and a disinterested search for the truth, I hope we can avoid turning assumptions and rumors into facts. We are doing everyone a disfavor if we don't, including the family of the victim.
I said early on in the previous thread that I have a prosecutorial mindset and feel that the prosecution's case is and should be harder to make. I can shoot holes in much of what is being floated as a possible defense strategy, but as Fly By Night has said, we are far from having enough evidence to convict anyone, let alone conduct a trial. And as Steve has said, and I repeat, the press coverage has been confused and confusing.
Finally, I have to disagree forcefully with Love Wolf, who says that translation is not an issue. It is a huge issue here and has been from the outset. It is everywhere we turn--from witness statements to press coverage. I am willing to bet that some of the mistakes made by the press are related to linguistic problems (just one of which is the embarrassing "tampon" incident). That being so, I feel that caution and rigorous logic are my only real allies. When all the evidence and the statements are on the table, I will certainly have my "conviction intime." But I'm not there yet.
Corinne,
For sure we know that the one that mother gives you doesn't do anything at all.
BPCL,
Goofy is just doing his "job" of offering rejoinders. Consider this an opportunity to state your case more forcefully and completely. Come back every time with stuff that casts doubt on what Goofy says. That's what will move us all forward. Don't let him get under your skin. Goofy has been generous enough to share all his handles with us. Goofy and all his handles love to "faire chier."
Goofy,
I will make you an agreement. I will have an open mind to all the evidence both true and heresay concerning this case, if you will just give me what you believe to be an alibi for AK. That is all that I would need from you/her to make me believe in her innocence. And it must be verifiable, and it must not conflict with that of RS. And it must account for the times during which this murder happened. I promise to have an open mind about this case if you will lay it out for all of us to see here. Please do not be simplistic about it either. I do not wish to patronize you here. I want you to take your time about it and give me the exact times. Where she was and who she was with, if you know. And once you give that to me, I will do my very best to have an open mind about this case. A promise is a promise.
Goofy,
Having read Kermit's questions and going back and seeing that I must have missed your 1:32 am 2/20 post, it would seem that you are implying that the murder weapon was indeed a knife, just not necessarily ~that~ knife. It's a curious statement since (again, those dratted leaks!) of late I have read (not in the tabloids) that we don't know what the murder weapon is; might not even be a knife. What we don't seem to be given an answer to is whether this leak comes from the prosecution (which would be foolish on their part and make them appear even more incapable of handling this case) or if they come from the defense.
I understand if you can't answer this question, just thought I might highlight the discrepancy.
Like Jumpy, I too am dismayed that there is no truth that can be told that can free RS and AK from prison. My doubt towards them and my feeling of some involvement with MK's death continue to stem from just this question.
I feel these two are hiding something. While this does not make them the potential actual killer, it make me wonder what role they played, and just what they are trying to hide.
Were there clean reputations more important than bringing the killer to aprehension?
And to Goofy, et al the comment - Move On??? That is what we are trying to do, the impediment to moving on at this point IS a credible story that explains just too many problems with ANY of the stories these two have been willing to run with to date
(OT) Skep -
"Corinne,
For sure we know that the one that mother gives you doesn't do anything at all."
Now, what a song that is!
By the way, Kermit, I continue to be impressed with your presentations and your ability to bring sanity and common sense to this board. It seems you are always there to corral either side when rumour and facts begin to spin out of control. Great work.
OT, but more lyrics from the same band that perhaps are more appropriate to this case:
You are afraid, embarrased too, no one has ever
Said such a thing to you
Your mother's ghost stands at you shoulder
A face like ice a little bit colder
Saying to you
You can not do that it breaks alll the rules
You learned in school
Off Topic
Michael/Skep,
Even "some kind of mushroom" isn't going to cause such a memory lapse. Sorry, but you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool the Dead Head any of the time when it comes to the hallucinogenics or the ~sweet leaf~. (couldn't help myself)
Feed Your Head
Corrine,
You should change your handle to Feed Your Head. I like it.
Funny about mushrooms, I was thinking that very thing. Hallucinogenics don't cause memory lapses--if anything, they have a way of "etching" things permanently onto the brain. Go Ask Alice, when she's Ten Feet Tall....
Sparrow,
Whatever, why don't we close out this case and move on. Why don't we just have the Italian Police free the three people in custody and just have them tell the world, We are inept, we do not know what we are doing, the three persons we have in custody, well they are young, they tried to tell us something, but it was hard to understand. Let us pretend that nothing happened. We are not capable of doing anything to solve this crime. It was an accident. It happened by itself. Why are we even bothering to discuss it here anyway. What point are you making about this crime anyway? I suggest we close shop here now and just move on to some other thing going on in the looking glass.
bpcl | 02.20.08 - 1:31 pm | #
I wouldn't suggest that. And the fact that you say this to me indicates that you don't understand my angle at all. And in response to your post of last night... nothing in my earlier posts indicated that I thought that any mysterious, mystical force could cause a person to tell lies, doubt the truth, or believe what is not true. I stated very clearly that those tactics used in interrogation would be psychologically manipulative. Now, just because I believe the police used those tactics, that doesn't mean I believe that AK and RS are innocent. It is just another aspect of the story. Really, to get to the truth, one must have an open mind.
Off Topic (yet again)
F of P,
Triad; definitely more appropriate. The whole White Rabbit segue came from me feeling like I was at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party several posts ago and Skep playing along with me. My head went to music as it so often does.
Sorry, that message was meant for you SB, not Sparrow. I apologize.
bpcl | 02.20.08 - 1:34 pm | #
Okay. Disregard anything in my previous post that doesn't apply.
Sparrow,
It is just that I like you both and both your names begin with S and Sp is close to SB!
Got it.
What has happen here????!!!!! Traduco is correct. See this post on the italian woman at the table blog: Posted by ShowMeYourSources at 2/19/08 11:54 p.m.
Ok, my real name of course I won't give out. I mainly post around the various blogs as goofy, abdar, and whoisthemonsterofperugia. I guess I choose my names base on how the blog has revealed itself to me. And this from perugia shock blog:
whoisthemonsterofperugia said...
Anonymous, I have a bad case of TabRoids and this blog seems give me some relief...that is why I hang around here! I like to read what peole have to say that hide behind the shadow of themselves....just as you are....Are you the Monster of Perugia? February 8, 2008 9:49 AM
This tread is being duped, distracted, influenced and lead down the wrong path by this person. This is sad especially for the Kercher Family.
So, how are we being duped if he tells us who he is?
OhNo!NotHereToo!
We are NOT being duped.
There has been some attempt at distraction, but it is so obvious you can drive a truck through it and we have made headway.
Speaking only for me, I am not being led down the wrong path by goofy or any of his alter egos. For one thing, they all have the same personality. We all know how to read and check other blogs. Goofy told us where he was going last night and he went there.
Don't worry! He may have worked for CID and boned up on techniques of manipulation, but I doubt he's having a huge impact here.
SB,
I understand your skepticism about the process. And I do not wish to belabor the point, but don't you believe that if these two families really believed in the words that their children were/are telling them, that if they really believed in their innocence, that they would be down at the Magistrates office begging, screaming, crying for their release. As you have said, they are in prison for a reason and/or reasons. As you say, one has to keep an open mind in order to get at the truth and I am sure you mean, the truth of how and why Meredith died. My discussion with Goofy began when I made certain inferences about AK and the crime. IS that not a way to get at the truth? You can say, that black is white and white is black and gray is in between. Everyone wants to get at the truth for Meredith's sake I am sure you will agree. Each of us has a methodology that is colored by our experiences. You have yours and you are using it here. My methodology begins with the alibi. As I stated before, to me, this is the most trusted and sacred thing one can use when one is falsely accused. You made the case about Patrick. Was he unfairly accused? Well based on the circumstances yes he was, but he was framed by AK, you must agree, so the Police cannot be totally put to blame on this. And Patrick used the power of the witness to show that he indeed had nothing to do with this crime. AK can never live this aspect down. For me, the power of the alibi, our trusted word, our honor, is where I begin. After that, then I can consider the possibilities of DNA, cross contamination, motive etc,.
What is your point OhNoNotHereToo?
What led up to that post? Do you know or did you bother to read or did you just go back to cut and past something from there. You didn't copy and past anything from a blog that has a copyright protection did you?
Here again, I made a comment in regards to what I read and viewed over there on PS. So again, apparently for you, its ok to be one sided in regards to how PS was refering to Amanda?
GIGO. That is why I made those remarks over there. So what, this is today...move on already.
(OT) Corinne/Skep -
"Even "some kind of mushroom" isn't going to cause such a memory lapse. Sorry, but you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool the Dead Head any of the time when it comes to the hallucinogenics or the ~sweet leaf~. (couldn't help myself)"
This is very true...they certainly never did for me. I am thinking 'Where is my mind?' by the Pixies may be more appropriate.
For me a lack of alibi speaks volumes. I am just being practical. I have faith in the investigation. They are solving a puzzle and it will be solved. I've been actively lurking since Halo 2 and have read various arguments. There has never been one point that has made me change my mind that the three in custody are involved in this horrible murder. In my opinion they have carelessly taken a life and they have ruined their own. What a waste. I do believe there will be justice for Meredith. It will just take time and patience.
Skep,
What impact would I be trying to get. All I am saying is that people need to remember that all aspects of this case need to be looked at.
I understand people want to pre-judge the suspects. I don't blame them. I am just keeping my mind open until I can see the pieces I deem to be missing that helps me put my ideas together.
Everyone hammers on Amanda but I hardly see bpcl ever pointing at the fact that Rudy has admitted to his presence at the cottage and admits to being there during MK's last moments. Why don't people blast him 100 times more for keeping the "truth" hidden. The truth begins with him.
I too have many questions to ask. I by no means have access to all the defense inside information....I merely get the corretions in regards to the reported information.
As with bpcl wanting an alibi I want a transcript. Once I see or hear a transcript of the interogation, then maybe I can make some conclusions as to whether my theories are right or wrong. If I am right about what I feel then bpcl will get the alibi that he/she is so desparte to get. If I am wrong, then no alibi will be obtained any time.
The truth is not in the heads of all the suspects. The truth lies in the evidence and can be noplace else.
friend of Peltier | 02.20.08 - 2:21 pm |
FOP, I have also had some less than glorious days here, like all/many (last week a case in point).
One can either simply turn off and wait for the possible trial to go ahead and see the evidence then. Or try to focus on the small amounts of information that is available, filter it as best we can, discard obvious rumour, and try to incorporate what seems not to be so, in a logical scenario.
And those bits and pieces of information come from the press, the mouth of Goofy, Perugia Shock, TV news, etc. Any information from any source should be examined and filtered before you accept it.
And your scenario(s) may be somewhat different or similar to mine, but probably never exactly the same.
Kermit,
Please keep focusing on the small amounts of information that is available. I appreciate it very much.
bpcl,
I am very skeptical about the whole issue of the forced confession.
I was delighted to hear this morning from Fly By Night that the questioning had been taped. This means we will know exactly what happened and when.
I don't buy that the police wanted Amanda Knox to finger Patrick, for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum. Even if they suggested that name, which I don't think they did, there was no need to give the elaborate accounting of Patrick's involvement.
I also think it is troubling that others (Robyn, Sophie, Filomena) were questioned for hours and did not become suspects. I think there is some reason that AK and RS did not pass the test. But to move from there to a strong belief that they directly murdered Meredith Kercher is a huge and unwarranted leap for me.
And this just skims the surface of the details that are bothering me.
As for the attitude of the families, they seem to believe what their children are telling them. They may be wrong about that. Perhaps they too are being lied to on key points. But they are sincere, and I don't think their behavior is an indication of anything but their belief in what their kids are saying, what the lawyers are saying, and what the Italian system is saying. If it was my kid, I might be doing things differently, but I have a hard time passing judgement on them. I don't think this is disloyal in any way to the family of the victim. They seem like such decent people. I'm sure they just want people to pay for this crime in proportion to their involvement.
I don't like it when goofy (and all his alter egos) makes comments about Meredith Kercher. I think it is insensitive at best under the circumstances. He has a way of talking about her that makes me think he doesn't care that much. (Goofy, excuse me if I'm misreading you here, but I think it would be better if you stayed away from that one--you are too closely associated with someone who is suspected, rightly or wrongly, of having some involvement in her death.).
I don't know what else to say.
Goofy,
Sorry if my comment about your impact irritated you. I only meant that the information you are able to give has not fundamentally altered anyone's view (or so it would seem), and I don't think you have succeeded entirely IF your goal was to disrupt or lead us astray.
But your input is part of the mix.
It is what it is.
The devil is in the details and we all appreciate Kermit's thorough work in that regard. Speaking of which, earlier (Thanks for any replies / observations you are able to provide. Kermit | 02.20.08 - 1:10 pm | #) he asked you a number of questions that you didn't provide answers to. Even if your answers are "sorry, I don't know" or "I can't tell you," it would be good to hear that so we can move on as you suggest and also counter assertions that you're just manipulating us, messing with our board and not delivering the goods.
Goofy/Abdar -
"Everyone hammers on Amanda but I hardly see bpcl ever pointing at the fact that Rudy has admitted to his presence at the cottage and admits to being there during MK's last moments. Why don't people blast him 100 times more for keeping the "truth" hidden. The truth begins with him."
Because Abdar he is admitting to being there whilst Amanda is not, whilst at the same time her alibi does not support her assertion...plus certain forensics.
Goofy,
I can't speak for bpcl or anyone else but myself, but I know the reason I don't hammer away at Rudy is because it's very obvious that he was involved. I really don't think anyone is in any sort of denial about that (but then I've been wrong before).
And Skep, the point you just made about Sophie, Robyn and Filomena being questioned for hours is the exact point I was trying to make to Abdar/Eve. I'm sure they weren't given tea and biscuits and given a comfy chair to sit in with their feet up while they were being interrogated either, and yet they didn't seem to incriminate themselves in such a way as to wind up thrown in jail for up to a year at the whim of some rogue law enforcement agency. Now I don't know about Sophie and Robyn but I do believe Filomena is Italian. Wait a minute! Maybe this really IS all just anti-Americanism! (note: this is sarcasm)
Skep,
Fair enough.
I still stand by the fact that neither have been charged. I have no doubt that charges would have evolved by now if they were warranted.
Goofy/Abdar -
I have a couple of questions for you and your answers shall decide on the degree of interaction I shall have with you in future:
a) Are you able to tell us anything pertaining to the case that we do not already know?
b) Are you able to correct anything we believe we know but is actually incorrect and replace it with the correct information?
Thank You
SB,
Well put, that is why I keep talking to you and hopefully, why you keep talking to me. To sum it up, we are at a standstill then. Kermit just posted that it is important to keep looking at the small pieces of information. I agree with him. Ad nauseum is the proper term I would agree. As for the leap of faith, I have never said here that either RS, RG or AK murdered Meredith Kercher. I have said that all three are somehow responsible for it however. Do I have anything that backs that up now? No, I do not. People here have stated that there will be a trial. I don't know what that means really in so far as this case is concerned. The three people involved in this case have made many statements. It is fair to say that they have been made under false pretenses or even under duress. That being said, all three have said many things so it will be difficult for us to believe anything they were to say now. As for the families, I have never said anything derogatory about these families. I have seen a picture of the Knox family when they did an interview and it is compelling. All one has to do is look at their faces. I have seen the faces of the Kerchers as well. This is a tragedy of unbelievable proportions. Four young peoples lives have been ruined no matter what the outcome is, four good families have been destroyed, no matter what the outcome is. If I rant here sometimes, it is against the one thing I find rampant about these three/four young people, whether or not they were involved; and that is the narcissistic behavior they have exhibited in all of their actions. This is the one fault of humankind and it will be our undoing if we do not do something about it sooner than later.
I don't buy that the police wanted Amanda Knox to finger Patrick, for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum. Even if they suggested that name, which I don't think they did, there was no need to give the elaborate accounting of Patrick's involvement.---SB
SB, if you already suspect someone, let's say in Amanda's case it's because of her strange behavior in reaction to MK's death, and the belief that she knew too much about it to not be involved, you investigate her. You look at her phone records. You know men were involved in the crime, so you note all the men AK's interacted with. You see PL's communication on the night of the murder. Of course you need to check him out, but first you want to extract information from AK, so you have something to work with when you interrogate PL. So, your angle of interrogation with AK is "We know you were with PL the night of the murder. You texted him that you would see him later, and later MK was murdered. At first AK explains exactly what the message is, that it has nothing to do with seeing PL that night, or the murder, but they push and push and push, until you finally give in. You might simply say, "Okay, okay, I met PL at the basketball court." But it doesn't stop there. That's not enough. They push, and then you went to your house, right? Because PL wanted MK, right? More resistance, but the cops don't let up. "Okay, okay, maybe PL was interested in MK." It continues, "But MK didn't want anything to do with PL, right?"
Okay, so what I'm saying is I was also really bothered with the level of detail in the accusation against Patrick. I thought that meant she was a real liar, and wanted to frame Patrick. I no longer believe that. She is just a weak girl, who might still have something to do with the murder, but in the case of the PL accusation, she didn't have the strength to stand up to the tactics of the police in this. They led her to PL, not the other way around.
Luckily PL had the alibis, and there was no forensic evidence against him. And it's possible that PL, being older and probably having to survive, and in his case succeeding to thrive against obstacles for some time, gave him the strength and skill to resist similar tactics by the police. This may be why he forgave AK. He went through the same thing, and maybe understands how a 20 yr. old girl might not be able to handle it as he did.
Sparrow -
I don't believe they led Amanda to Patrick, for reasons that have been said before but I'll go over them again. Patrick was no waster or criminal...he was a successful buisness owner in Perugia who added to the Perugian ecnomy. Even further, as a black immigrant he was a model of integration at a time in Italy and the EU as a whole when immigration is a very hot potato. If the ILE wanted a black man...they would have wanted 'any' black man but the popular Patrick.
Otherwise, we have to accept there was some 'conspiracy' against Patrick for which we have no evidence. One, if it ever existed, that has backfired badly I may add, since he now has the sympathy of the people of Perugia and beyond as well as the popularity that clearly has existed for some years.
In regards to my last post, also I would like to mention the video capture of AK that we haven't seen. I don't know if it exists, but now I have a little more doubt about it. Supposedly when the police told her about the photo, she said, "Well if it's true, I must have been there." At first glance one doesn't know what to make of this. Is she really that confused about where she was? Is she crumbling against irrefutable evidence, but still resisting to fully admit? Now, it sounds like the perfect lie the police might use to get a suspect to say what they believe is true. Of course, they're hopeful she will say, "Okay, I was there," then tell the whole story which can match the forensic evidence, etc.
Sparrow,
I agree with all that you say, except for one thing. Patrick had the strength because he KNEW he was innocent.
If the ILE wanted a black man...they would have wanted 'any' black man but the popular Patrick. ---Michael (UK)
I don't believe they wanted a black man. I believe they wanted the man on AK's phone.
"We were drunk and we wanted to have some fun, we invited Meredith to join us," Knox said. .Partial confession later retracted.
I think this might account for Merediths BAC and corroborate AKs initial statement . When she returned to the flat, RG/AK and most likely RS ( 4 is company 3 is a crowd) were already getting a head start, either in kitchen or AKs room. Amanda may have bought a special liquor from PL, along with a plate of mushrooms. Meredith may have had one or two drinks to be social. Probably they were trying to seduce her into experimenting into sex games. Meredith then retires to her room (alone) and finds money missing from her nightstand. This was explained in great detail by Rudy (not that I believe everything he says), but his language wasnt vague . And if true hardly puts Meredith in any mood for any games or consensual sex with anyone, let alone Rudy. Situation rapidly escalates.
Also Rudys lawyer said hes getting tired of people making his client out to be super guilty, and they will become more combative. Word of advise to AK/RS defense teams. Dont press your luck.
Also Rudys lawyer said hes getting tired of people making his client out to be super guilty, and they will become more combative. Word of advise to AK/RS defense teams. Dont press your luck.
DLW | 02.20.08 - 3:52 pm | #
This is good news.
Sparrow -
"I don't believe they wanted a black man. I believe they wanted the man on AK's phone."
So in your scenario what are you saying came first? Are you saying they suspected Amanda first and came to suspect Patrick becase he was on her phone...Or suspected Patrick and came to suspect Amanda because of her connection with him?
To be honest I see no reason why the police would have gone so hard over a mere text message that could have meant anything...especially when they already had AK and RS to focus on.
The only reason I can see otherwise, and has occured to me in the past, is they may have known they were looking fora black man very early on due to the hairs in Meredith's hand, hair that they could see came from a black person...but before any of the forensics, such as Guede's fingerprints, came back.
DLW,
I like your hypothesis.
Just to add...I am of course only 'assuming' that the reported hair in Meredith's hand is that of Guede. We don't actually know that yet.
So in your scenario what are you saying came first? Are you saying they suspected Amanda first and came to suspect Patrick becase he was on her phone...Or suspected Patrick and came to suspect Amanda because of her connection with him?
To be honest I see no reason why the police would have gone so hard over a mere text message that could have meant anything...especially when they already had AK and RS to focus on.
---Micheal (UK)
I believe, as you say, that the police were already on AK and RS, and that they believed more people were involved. After they started investigating AK and RS, they found PL on AK's phone and he became a suspect. We don't know anything about the hair, if it exists, so I can't say if that had anything to do with it. But the text message, made at that time, on that day, is enough for them to view him as a suspect, since AK was already a suspect.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.20.08 - 12:57 pm wrote:
I've been wondering about the persistent suggestion that it was not all taped. EU documents I have found regarding reforms in Italian law, many of them verbatim transcripts from formal hearings, lead me to believe that this is a requirement and so would have been done as a matter of course. Did you get that information from a press source or some other source?
I'm not sure of the press source (Times Online?) but I did read Migini quoted as saying "we gave the tapes to the court" when referring to the Knox confession and this appeared to play a role in the court ruling to hold on to Knox. But regardless, I have the general impression that it is standard practice to record everything in the Italian system - it will all be revealed eventually.
On a possibly OT note, I about fell off my chair when I opened up the new Puppini Sisters CD and saw that picture of Kate Mullins in her beautiful pink evening gown. Brits have such a quirky sense of humour. You can see it in their eCard
It seems the reason why Patrick became a suspect is well-known. What we need to know is why Amanda became one. (One that doesn't include bashing of Italian police and Mignini's sanity)
Corrine,
Amanda Knox, who had the bedroom next door to Meredith, was initially interviewed by police on the 2nd November, when she claimed that she had spent the whole evening and night with her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito. For some reason the Italian police were not convinced by this story. This may well have had something to do with the contents of her MySpace profile, in which she referred to herself as 'Foxy Knoxy' and featured such material as a story entitled Baby Brother which described how a young woman was drugged and raped. Her boyfriend Sollecito similarly had an internet blog which featured a photograph of himself dressed as a mummy and waving a meat cleaver, whilst he proclaimed his desire to try "extreme experiences"
Corrine,
The police decided to place an intercept on Knox's mobile phone and therefore overheard her telling her boyfriend on the evening of Monday, 5th November; "I cannot do it any more, I cannot bear it." Naturally curious as to what Knox couldn't do any more, they organised a series of 'dawn raids' on the following morning. Once under police interrogation, Knox apparently burst into tears and broke down at 5.45am and confessed that her previous statement was not an accurate account of events.
Sparrow -
"But the text message, made at that time, on that day, is enough for them to view him as a suspect, since AK was already a suspect."
This is where I start to have a problem. A popular girl like Amanda no doubt had quite a few different texts from different people. So why Patrick in particular? Patrick is someone Amanda had every right to have known since he was her boss and she 'was' supposed to have been working for him that night...what would have made him stand out so much that the police felt they needed to go so far as to milk a false accusation out of Amanda that night? All without even making any preliminary investigations into him.
What I'm trying to say is that for me to buy the police 'forcing' an accusation of someone the police would first had to have had a bit more solid ground (more then a mere text) for suspecting that person....otherwise you're just going to have an accusation that's never going to stick and I don't believe the iLE to have been as inept as that.
Therefore, the only alternative is that the accusation was not forced as some would like to make out but rather, for whatever reason, volunteered.
Corrine,
And the rest is history.
bpcl,
Sorry, I was getting frustrated by the whole "Amanda only fingered Patrick because the nasty mean policemen wanted her to" scenario. Personally, I think a lot more went on during the first meeting Amanda had with the postal police than has been told or leaked, regardless of who did the leaking. How she looked that morning might have been one thing that tipped them off. You slept all night? I think not, said the cat!
Sparrow...
I do not agree to the following I am sorry.. Did you read the words that AK wrote about PL involvement, it was graphic about the rooms, who, the noises... she was telling some truth in what she said....apart from the name and the full details were not totally complete. She was creating a false trail.. it was deliberate...
----------------------------------
"okay, so what I'm saying is I was also really bothered with the level of detail in the accusation against Patrick. I thought that meant she was a real liar, and wanted to frame Patrick. I no longer believe that. She is just a weak girl, who might still have something to do with the murder, but in the case of the PL accusation, she didn't have the strength to stand up to the tactics of the police in this. They led her to PL, not the other way around"
Corrine,
I agree with you. There have been people who have come here, it appears to me. wishing to change our course of direction. When these distractions are not here, people like yourself tend to start working on the true facts of the case. These people, whomever they are, do not want this to happen.
"Skep,
Fair enough.
I still stand by the fact that neither have been charged. I have no doubt that charges would have evolved by now if they were warranted.
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 3:35 pm | #"
OK. My only problem on that score is the statement by the prosecutor's office that the investigation would be wrapped up by summer. This means the preliminary investigation, so I would not expect charges to be filed before then at the earliest. So for right now, I don't take the lack of charges to be indicative of anything except the complexity of this case. From my experience of living in a similar European country for a very long time, I would say that from an American perspective things move very slowly. That has been my take on this investigation. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the wheels--all the wheels--move more slowly than in America. Indeed, that is one of the things Americans find so charming, and so exasperating, about Italy, France, Spain and so on.
Yes. What Michael said. If the police were just going around willy-nilly grabbing people and calling them suspects when they had nothing to do with it, surely they would have beaten/starved/tortured a similar "forced" confession out of Filomena, Sophie and Robyn, too, right?
I am of the mind that all these things are leaks by the DEFENSE because they haven't got a leg to stand on, none of them. If I'm wrong, I will gladly eat my hat and all of yours here and all the crow I possibly can.
Corrine -
"Sorry, I was getting frustrated by the whole "Amanda only fingered Patrick because the nasty mean policemen wanted her to" scenario."
I am in full agreement with you on this. Amanda was not the only one interrogated...RS and later PL was too...neither of them falsley accused anyone. Neither am I aware of any statistics showing that in the Italian legal system false accusations are more common then anywhere else. Yet, some seem to be wanting to make Amanda into some 'special case' where not only did it happen but that it's also quite understandable. In my book, it requires quite a few leaps to draw these conclusions.
Corrine...
I will share your hat with you... they are playing a game and the sad thing is that the friends and family of GF and AK believe in that game.. so does abdar aka goofy..... lives have been destroyed.... rebuilding is required not continued games...
------------------------------
"I am of the mind that all these things are leaks by the DEFENSE because they haven't got a leg to stand on, none of them. If I'm wrong, I will gladly eat my hat and all of yours here and all the crow I possibly can@.
It also requires a leap of faith to say the poor dear 20 year old wasn't strong enough to say "Impossible. It wasn't me on that video unless I've learned to bi-locate." if that was used as one of the police's brutal techniques against such a delicate flower. Please. If she just went along and said "okay then it must be me" she must have led one hell of sheltered life.
Off Topic,
Love, Wolf, LoveWolf, however you want to write it, I would be delighted to share a hat with you. (right or wrong, let's do it anyway)
Everyone hammers on Amanda but I hardly see bpcl ever pointing at the fact that Rudy has admitted to his presence at the cottage and admits to being there during MK's last moments. Why don't people blast him 100 times more for keeping the "truth" hidden. The truth begins with him.
There is no question that RG is involved in the death of Meredith Kercher. And yes it does start with him and hopefully, he will one day explain his side of the story. The question remains, what is the involvement of both RS and AK. As I have said before, they do not have verifiable alibis and DNA places them at the scene of the crime. Therefore, they cannot be excluded as possible suspects in the death of Meredith Kercher.
Corinne,
On this question of leaks, I am reminded of what Frank said the other day in response to a comment made in reply to his entry about Lalli getting fired. He said:
"Of course I told you what he said. Who do you think said the informations contained in The Collateral Element article?
The most of other data we have leaked from attorneys and from consultants.
Mignini may have his defects, but he doesn't talk."
Corrine -
"It also requires a leap of faith to say the poor dear 20 year old wasn't strong enough to say "Impossible. It wasn't me on that video unless I've learned to bi-locate." if that was used as one of the police's brutal techniques against such a delicate flower. Please. If she just went along and said "okay then it must be me" she must have led one hell of sheltered life."
I agree. I would say there has been historically cases of people admitting to crimes they have not committed or of accusing others....but in most cases this has been because they either have srious mental issues...or because it is due to interrogations that cover a period of 'days'. To suggest that this would happen to an intelligent girl over a period of mere hours, even if arduous, is unrealistic. If there is police 'corruption' in ths matter it is funny how this has not affected anyone else.
We should also remember that Amanda went up in front of the Judge not once, but twice and made no mention of this 'unfair pressure'. This was not out of 'fear' either, for the next thing she is claiming her right to silence, the last thng one does if fearful of the authorities who have you in their cusody.
The truth is not in the heads of all the suspects. The truth lies in the evidence and can be noplace else.
That is a common ground. The truth as you say is not in the heads of the suspects mainly because each of them have told several different versions of what they believe happened. And you must admit, that if someone has told several different versions of a fact, that they would be excoriated by any attorney-at-law in a court of law. So you are correct there, the truth is no longer in their heads.
We are not privy to all the information that the authorities have. However, if it is proven that AK's blood is mixed with Meredith on the bathroom sink, if it is proven that the DNA found on the knife is indeed that of both Meredith and AK and if it is proven that RS was not on the computer as he said he was, and if it is proven that the shoe print fits that of RS and if the authorities show other DNA evidence of the suspects presence(RG, RS, AK), would you be willing to accept all of that as evidence of their involvement in the death of Meredith Kercher.
Skep,
This whole Mignini thing is beginning to remind me of how the republicans blame everything that has ever happened on Bill Clinton...
Thanks for bringing that back up. Somehow I think if these leaks were coming from the prosecution, the evil and corrupt Mignini would have fired them along with Lalli.
It's all Clinton's fault! bwa ha ha ha
I would also like to add... Mr C Mellas himself came onto this blog just the other day and stated he had every confidence about the ILE and the Italian investigative process. This was not pressured out of him, he volunteered this statement. Now, how could he possibly say that if the accusation against Patrick, one that let's face it...has caused his daughter a great deal of pain and no little danger regarding her future, was forced, tricked or coerced out of her by the ILE?
Abdar/Goofy -
Another question. Do you also use the handle: 'MP' ? If so I'm assuming this stands for 'Military Police/man'?
OT))
Corinne,
Great analogy. Now that we have been "treated" to 8 years of Shrub Dubya, you would think the blame would have started to shift by now. But I digress...
What I'm trying to say is that for me to buy the police 'forcing' an accusation of someone the police would first had to have had a bit more solid ground (more then a mere text) for suspecting that person....otherwise you're just going to have an accusation that's never going to stick and I don't believe the iLE to have been as inept as that.---Michael (UK)
But that's exactly what they got Michael, an accusation that didn't stick, and they owned up to it. It doesn't mean they're inept, it means they use the same faulty tactics as so many other LE agencies use. It's a hit or miss system. Their belief was that they'd get something from AK they could use against PL, and PL would give them more, and that would lead to more, but it stopped at PL, in this case, and they owned up to it. Look, AK didn't have a lawyer. Do you think the police are that inept? Maybe they just wanted to get the info that would lead to hard evidence, so it didn't matter if the interrogation could be used in court. It won't be admissible, and it doesn't matter because it doesn't prove their case.
It was also on the 11th November that the police traced the previously unnamed Swiss university professor who Lumbaba had claimed was present in his bar earlier that evening. He turned out to be Romano Mero from Zurich who had been in Perugia to attend a conference. Mero flew back to Perugia and was happy to confirm that he had been at Le Chic between the hours of 8pm and 10pm. Unfortunately this additional alibi evidence wasn't sufficient to convince the police who still suspected Lumumba, apparently because his mobile phone could be placed in "the vicinity of the murder scene" at 8.38 pm on the night that Meredith died, and the fact that Lumumba "changed his mobile telephone the day immediately after the facts of 1 November". They were also doubts over his alibi because they couldn't trace any till receipts for the bar between the hours 6.00pm and 10.29pm. (Which probably meant nothing more than that Lummaba was fiddling his taxes.)
"Sorry, I was getting frustrated by the whole "Amanda only fingered Patrick because the nasty mean policemen wanted her to" scenario"---Corinne
If you believe this is what I'm implying, then you're not understanding what I'm writing. I am talking about only one thing, and that is the PL accusation. And I don't characterize them as nasty policemen. Nothing I have said is bashing them. I have said that I believe they were searching for what they thought was the truth, and they used typical tactics in order to get it. But it didn't work out in that case.
I have also said that I don't think this exonerates AK of any crime. I've been pretty clear about that.
Sparrow -
"But that's exactly what they got Michael, an accusation that didn't stick, and they owned up to it."
You know, I 'knew' you were going to say that.
Have you also considered that they may have got an accusation that didn't stick because someone led them up the garden path? If it was in their Modus Operendi to coerce/trick/force accusations that may not stick don't you think perhaps a few more people may have been dragged in and put under lock and key then Patrick? There certainly were other contenders that they could push AK/RS/PL into accusing after all.
Good evening everybody (in this part of the world)
Regarding AK blood found in the sink:
besides the fact that I don't understand how menstrual blood would end up in a sink rather than in a bidet or elsewhere, menstrual blood composition is different from the "other" blood simply because, in the absence of pregnancy, the shedding of the inner layer of the uterus(endometrium) is the origin of the menstrual haemorrage, with blood flowing through the vagina containing the detached pieces of endometrium, whereas blood coming from any other part of the body doesn't contain any. Microscopic examination would show endometrial cells, that are not present elsewhere in human blood. If prosecution is holding onto this evidence it seems to me that the blood is not menstrual. (perhaps coming from sloppy manicure?)
Have you also considered that they may have got an accusation that didn't stick because someone led them up the garden path? If it was in their Modus Operendi to coerce/trick/force accusations that may not stick don't you think perhaps a few more people may have been dragged in and put under lock and key then Patrick? There certainly were other contenders that they could push AK/RS/PL into accusing after all.
Michael (UK) | 02.20.08 - 5:21 pm | #
Of course, I have considered it. That's what I believed previously. Patrick's text message was made that evening, shortly before his mobile phone pinged near the house. That's why he was more of a suspect than any other of the numerous people you imagine, but have no proof of, that could have been on Amanda's phone. Really Michael, I know you're intelligent and sometimes seem very compassionate, but you are faltering here, badly.
Nicki,
Thank you!
Sparrow -
"It won't be admissible, and it doesn't matter because it doesn't prove their case."
I'm just wondering why some people are certain this interview won't be admissable as a given?
I know the defence are claiming that and they will do their best to get it thrown out...but that's their job and I would expect no less of a defence to try and get an interview/interrogation that's bad for their client thrown out.
But, I am wondering what was so different about this interrogation that was so different to that in any other Italian investigation, or indeed even RS's initial interrogation.
Sparrow -
"Really Michael, I know you're intelligent and sometimes seem very compassionate, but you are faltering here, badly."
Don't make this about 'me'. This isn't personal Sparrow.
But, I am wondering what was so different about this interrogation that was so different to that in any other Italian investigation, or indeed even RS's initial interrogation.
Michael (UK) | 02.20.08 - 5:30 pm |
Frank at Perugia Shock has stated so. I believe him until someone says otherwise. And it may simply be because she didn't have a lawyer. Maybe Nicki can tell us definitively.
Don't make this about 'me'. This isn't personal Sparrow.
Michael (UK) | 02.20.08 - 5:32 pm | #
I know you from your postings Michael. And I am using logic, and you seem to be missing it in this case, which I feel is not typical of you. I find myself explaining things that I know you are most capable of understanding. But I feel something is stopping you. That's all.
I don't think you need to agree that what I'm saying is exactly true, but I don't understand how you can not see how it's possible.
But, I am wondering what was so different about this interrogation that was so different to that in any other Italian investigation, or indeed even RS's initial interrogation.
Michael (UK) | 02.20.08 - 5:30 pm |
Frank at Perugia Shock has stated so. I believe him until someone says otherwise. And it may simply be because she didn't have a lawyer. Maybe Nicki can tell us definitively.
Sparrow | 02.20.08 - 5:33 pm |
I must have missed this. Where is Frank saying it?
Michael,
Sparrow's point seems pretty clear (to me anyway), but I'm not sure why the PL accusation is so important to you. Can you tell me why it is important in building the case for AK's involvement?
What got me, and sticks in my head, is that video of Amanda and friends.
Her friend saidL:
The dirty jew
Everyone continued to laugh, including Amanda.
Just like in the video of Borat, filmed in some southern state of America. Borat dressed like a cowboy in big hat.
Where he sings:
Throw the jew down the well
So my country can be free
Throw the jew down the well
Then we have a big party
But he was just joking, after all, he is Jewish himself
He was showing how backward some people still are.
Instead of stopping him saying that shit, they all joined in, like a merry bunch of idiots, laughing, like they all did in Amada's video, much like the Ku Klux Clan might or a bunch of Hitler, Nazi, fascists might do.
"Tell me someone, is this acceptable behavioure in Seattle and is Seattle a racist kind of place because I've never been there. If someone said that in my company I'd tell them to shut their mouth, because I am not like that and do not like that. I will not accept it and nor will I let it just go by. I cannot be friends with someone who says stuff like that.
Who teaches kids like that this stuff, is America anti-semitic? In parts? Some states?
Frank at Perugia Shock has stated so. I believe him until someone says otherwise. And it may simply be because she didn't have a lawyer. Maybe Nicki can tell us definitively.
Sparrow | 02.20.08 - 5:33 pm |
I must have missed this. Where is Frank saying it?
nicki | 02.20.08 - 5:38 pm | #
I think in some of his comments sections he's said that it's inadmissible anyway, so people should stop talking about. This was in response to people wanting to talk about it. He didn't give any reference to prove that point.
Sparrow -
Whilst sometimes Frank's sources allow him to provide information before it's released and his local origins are most useful, his overall opinions on the case are no more valid then any of ours here. In fact, I recall his continuing to insist on putting Patrick in the frame when most of us had written him out. This is not to criticise him...God knows, I make mistakes too. But that's the point, there is no 'Super Pundit' in this case.
The fact is, the prosecution clearly dissagree with him.
Nicki has always been most helpful in our understanding of the Italian legal system and I have not as yet seen her state that the interrogration is inadmissable, but maybe she could fill us in further (sorry to put you on the spot Nicki).
Nicki, I just meant that maybe you can confirm if Amanda's statement would be inadmissible because she had no lawyer persent.
Okay - I have no intention of posting here again - I am just writing to clear something up. I am a close friend of Amanda's and everyone in that video.
Though the dirty Jew comment sounds horrible to people who don't know the group, please understand that it was a joke that can only be made from one friend to another. Though I will not name anyone, our Jewish friend (the "dirty Jew") and the blond boy who called him this are best of friends. It was simply a joke - if some one who wasn't close to this friend (the Jewish one) called him a dirty Jew, I guarantee you the blond boy would have jumped to his defense. Indeed, when we met our friend (the Jewish one) he introduced himself to me as Jewfro - as he actually did have a sort of afro freshmen year.
Please do understand that this comment was not meant to be scrutinized by the world, and was simply close friends joking around - just as our Jewish friend has constantly made jokes at me for my religion. It is not offensive to me or to him, because it is said in a joking way from people we love, and we say the same things back. No one in our group is anti-semitic, or any other type of anti. I understand you trying to make something of this video, but trust me - there's nothing there. It is just friends goofing off who love each other dearly.
-MP
Does this help:
From Frank's blog entry December 13, called Amanda - Raffaele dialogue
"Talking technically they couldn't be jailed by what they stated that night in questura. They were, indeed questioned only as persons informed of facts. You can be arrested only if you are questioned as defendant. What made possible the arrest, and its confirmation, was that other persons informed of facts have released elements against each other. This is fortune."
If all that happened, I think I'd have changed my phone number too right away, if I had done nothing, I don't want a bunch of nutters calling me up, not at all.
If that guy in the video had not been saying the dirty jew maybe it would have been just one word different, and that would be dirty n---gg-r.
Good on you Patrick, my friend, and good luck.
Good on Patrick.
While we wait for Godot, does anybody have a further reference for the "20% match" of the victim's DNA on RS kitchen knife?
I've done a fast basic search, and only come up with Joe-the-Sleuth on 20/20. Even though we've seen that even serious papers get mixed up, I'd like to get a reference on the supposed degraded DNA of the victim on that knife, from a source who isn't a paid opiner.
Anonymous | 02.20.08 - 5:50 pm |
Okay Anon,
I'll accept that.
Thank you
Maybe I'm totally off-base, but it seems to me that it was because of this statement (about PL, etc.) and many others, some by AK and some by others, that Amanda Knox went from being an informed person to being a suspect.
It was because of discrepancies in his story, statements by others, etc., that Raffaele Sollecito went from being an informed person to being a suspect. That is what the official judge's report states in any case. I won't post it again.
No laywers were present for the obvious reason that the two were not speaking as suspects when they made the statements in question.
...bpcl...
for every hi-profile case we have discussed here there are family/friends who pop in and tell us - no way can the suspect be their family/friend - a few just really truly just could not believe it but their attitude was very different from mellas and goofy - imo these two just wanted to take the evidence totally off track - I knew when you kept asking goofy for the alibi he was headed for the abyss - sure enuf he fell in -
...goofy is the best nic for him -
Skep -
"Sparrow's point seems pretty clear (to me anyway), but I'm not sure why the PL accusation is so important to you. Can you tell me why it is important in building the case for AK's involvement?"
Because there does seem to be a concerted effort by some, perhaps not by Sparrow...but certainly others, to get this interrogation/interview written out of history like it didn't exist. The main tactic appears to be laying some kind of blame at the feet of the police. Now don't get me wrong...if the police 'have' been wrong/incorrect in any of their behaviours that is an issue. But, I 'need' to have 'evidence' that this is the case. Otherwise, all we do is provide fuel for those that would like to tip it lit all over the evidence that will get justice for Meredith and her family. That's my problem.
Kermit -
"I'd like to get a reference on the supposed degraded DNA of the victim on that knife, from a source who isn't a paid opiner."
Well...wouldn't any such sources simply be quoting Joe anyway? As far as I know Joe was the only one ever to have said it as a result of his 'examining the forensic evidence himself first-hand'....so that would make him the only actual 'source' apart from the actual forensic reports which we don't have.
I know that the defence at an earlier time had made dismissals of the dna on the knife but this had nothing to do with any supposed '20% match'. Thier argument was that the dna could have come from simply being touched or from a follicle of 'hair' which could have gotten there innocently.
Michael,
Then you're barking up the wrong tree with Sparrow because that is not at all what Sparrow is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Sparrow!). I honestly don't believe this interview will ever get written out of history. It is part of the history of this case, whether or not it is needed to press charges. Nobody has forgotten it. I would even say that it is problematic enough on some level (the credibility level) for the informal defense team to worry about it and explain over and over that it is the result of police coercion. Then a larger argument of police incompetence or corruption is needed, and on and on in concentric circles that expand outward.
Sparrow even says good for the police, they acted on that information, it turned out to be wrong and they "copped" to that. This too is part of the history of the case. I think it's just a normal part of how investigations proceed.
And as Minotaur pointed out on the previous thread, it may have helped to get the one they ultimately wanted, i.e. Rudy.
This tactic of blaming the police is one that really bothered me at first, but then I started thinking, is that the best you can do? If you go and look at some of the most hostile comments on Frank's blog, you will see that these people (well, this person with many handles, as it turns out) sound like way out there ranters without much knowledge of the LE system they're ranting about.
It's kind of like the poster pdx-77 said.
You know Michael, I know you didn't accuse me of it, but I'll say it: I don't feel in this false confession/accusation the police did anything wrong or incorrect, per se, they just made mistakes. But this version does show the people in this scene more accurately for who they are. This kind of tactic is common with police. Don't just take Goofy's word for it, you can find reference to it in so many places/cases. So, the police were just being police. And Amanda crumbling under their pressure? That's Amanda just being a 20 year old girl (I say girl here because she's reduced to that status in this case) facing pressure she's never faced before. This makes more sense to me than Amanda as the powerful manipulator and weaver of outlandish tales that fooled the idiot police who were powerless against her charms. Yes, an exaggeration, but not much...
Michael (UK) | 02.20.08 - 6:07 pm
I wish people would have listened to what Nicki explained about that one.
She said, for them to have said anything about having DNA they would not have said it, if it had not been put to a certain test.
So, if the info is that there is DNA, then there is DNA proof. Not a maybe, otherwise they would not say it is proof.
I know I can look it up what Nicki explained, so I can come back with the name of that testing, but so can somewone else so, I'll let them do it themselves, if they are so concerned, scroll back.
There seems to be great ignorance about the double stranded DNA.
It is not visible with the naked eye, you'd think people would know that at least, so if they describe it like, "speck of DNA," they are talking absolute nonsense.
A speck of DNA would be as big as a house.
Microscopism, microscopic, invisible. Speck is like horse dung size.
Sparrow
That's Amanda just being a 20 year old girl (I say girl here because she's reduced to that status in this case) facing pressure she's never faced before.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah maybe, yet, if she stabbed Meredith in her neck, then she's a 20 year old devious woman telling multiple lies.
MP -
"Though the dirty Jew comment sounds horrible to people who don't know the group, please understand that it was a joke that can only be made from one friend to another."
Welcome to the blog MP. I can say I fully understand what you are as I have, and am far from being the only one I think, had relationships that have been close to the point where we have been able in private to exchange humour that others would misunderstand or find incorrect. This is human and natural.
However, Amanda put this video up on her profile in full public view for anyone to see. The fact is there are many people who would not understand it and be offended. What this does at the least is show on Amanda's part a degree of not only naievety...but also but also a lack of 'empathy'....being able to see things from other's point of view. The fact that none of her friends on seeing it there advised her either to take it down or edit that part out also says the same about them.
Whether this is a result of simply a lack of maturity, common sense, a result of nature or nurture I don't know. But it is informative on what faculties Amanda appears to lack.
MP....you do have my respect and admiration for sticking up for your friend in spite of everything. She is lucky to have a friend such as you as would anyone be.
Skep, I think I almost always agree with you and am confident that if anyone is going to understand me it's you, although I think I very clear when I put in the effort.
MP
Your explanation sounds innocent enough, but if this is just a close personal joke among friends, how does it come to be on U-tube for the whold world to see????
How is the world to take it?
Now maybe it was a joke among friends, but my advice to you and your friends is to think a tad more about your actions. Put another way, the world does not think that you and your friends are very funny.
I meant "I am very clear..."
Sparrow, Michael,
In Italy,like in many other countries,when somebody is interrogated as a suspect their rights are protected, and that includes the right to have an interpreter if they can't speak the language, the right to remain silent etc, including having a lawyer present.The "witness" is being told the above (and I have no reason to believe AK hasn't been) as soon as their status changes to "suspect". To this regard, any self-incriminating statement made before would be inadmissible in court. But as a witness,AK didn't really self-accuse of the murder, rather she gave a false testimony and accused an innocent... this is a crime, and it doesn't matter if a lawyer is present or not, one doesn't need a lawyer present while committing a crime,but only after being accused of one. In this sense I think charges of false testimony, and perhaps obstruction if nothing else, could be admissible in court.
Michael (UK)
I do understand what you're saying. None of us will claim it was a good thing to put this video up - but please don't think this shows a lack of empathy on Amanda's part. It was only meant for her friends who were already in that video. But in all honesty, her youtube profile was not something she kept up on. Though I have never asked her about the video (I was not in Seattle when it was taken) I would imagine she put it up just because she was excited about having a youtube profile and wanted to put something on there. Was it a good choice? No. She didn't advertise it though - no one even knew it was up. (none of her friends). I imagine she put it up then forgot about it, not intending to leave it up, but to show some of her out-of-town friends (me, for example).
Naive to post this on the internet? In some ways, yes. This I can admit. But I don't think it shows she was immature or had no empathy. But of course, it is very easy to judge this in retrospect. I'm sure she didn't realize that it would receive 150,000 views some day, with hundreds of hate comments directed at her from people who judged part of her character based on this video. So in retrospect...yeah, I'm sure she wouldn't have put it up. Again, please don't read too much into the video or her character though. ...I don't want to get sucked into this whole blog addiction thing, so if I can't do my homework, I'll have to turn my computer off. Don't be offended.
Michael (UK) | 02.20.08 - 6:07 pm |"As far as I know Joe was the only one ever to have said it as a result of his 'examining the forensic evidence himself first-hand'"
That's my impression too, Michael. Maybe we're wrong and we just haven't all those other references out there ... even if it were just one. No, for the moment, it seems the only announcement and support for a "20% match" of the victim's DNA on RS's knife (with a "100%" match of AK) are the following words of Joe from the 20/20 soundtrack:
"JOE TACOPINA
That is the one piece of evidence that I believed was the smoking gun, linking...Amanda and Raffaele to this crime It, it turns out to be... almost certainly [CHUCKLES] not the murder weapon
ELIZABETH VARGAS
How do you know that?
JOE TACOPINA
We saw reports, um, that, that indicate that while the DNA on, on or near the handle is Amanda Knox's, her DNA was on other knives [CHUCKLES] in that apartment, she cooked in there.
NARRATION:
BUT WHAT ABOUT MEREDITH'S DNA ON THAT KNIFE? THE DEFENSE SAYS IT'S NOT BLOOD -- BUT TRACE ELEMENTS OF DNA... AND SOMETHING ELSE:
JOE TACOPINA:
There's only a twenty percent chance that's Meredith's. DNA. It turns out now that there's only a chance, they're not ruling out --
ELIZABETH VARGAS
It's only a twenty percent match?
JOE TACOPINA
Twenty percent match. and, to me, [CHUCKLES] that says one thing about this knife: That's not the murder weapon because if you use that knife as a murder weapon, and as bloody as that crime scene was, you're not going to be able to clean off all the blood, yet leave some other, DNA."
-
Sparrow -
I understand what you are saying and it all depends on whether you accept Goofy's idea of what happened here....I personally don't. I also feel this line of thinking is dangerous...I know you've said in your view this does not let Amanda off the hook...but there will be those who will use it to do just that. I've said all I wanted to say on this and am not going to go on about it any more because I don't want you to think I am getting at you, because I'm not. I just feel very strongly about it as before settling here I spent a lot of time on forums where just exactly this kind of thing was taken and manipulated beyond reason dishonestly. I am very wary of providing those individuals further ammunition.
friend of Peltier
I believe that everyone my age has had to rethink their youtube, myspace, and facebook profiles. In my generation, we are raised to "broadcast yourself" online - people because famous from their profiles sometimes! This is very normal to us, but to people like my dad, for instance, who still cannot fathom why anyone would have a facebook profile, the fact that anyone would put personal information online probably sounds insane. Perhaps it is - I'm not a huge fan myself. But I know many young people who, because of this, have started looking at their own profiles in different ways. Things can be interpreted in so many ways, and it's hard to see what you put up through some one else's eyes.
As for the 'why is it up for the world to see question' - well, I'm sure Amanda didn't know the world would have a reason to ever search for that video. Before this happened, it had been viewed 4 times (I believe the number was four - something like that). She didn't put it up for the world to see, because they had no reason to try to find it. But again - hindsight is 20/20.
Thanks Nicki!
Understood, Michael.
Sparrow,
You have always been clear as far as I can tell. And both you and Robert M have been invaluable in helping me see the police/investigation situation in a clearer and more nuanced way.
The police are imperfect, and they are operating in an imperfect world. This time they made a mistake that led to the arrest of an innocent man. I can understand why, under the circumstances, seeing AK's message to PL plus the "ping" in the "wrong" vicinity against the backdrop of mounting doubts about the alibis of AK and RS, could lead to aggressive questioning and the arrest in question. At the very least, the police should have checked out the story behind the message (by asking Patrick who was supposed to be working at his bar that night?).
I think AK's lawyer has also implicitly acknowledged that, although the police made a mistake, so did his client--in the statement he made to the effect that it is very serious to falsely accuse someone of a crime. I think this was (i) a plea to get that one off the books, (ii) a warning to his client and her family advisors to shut up, and (iii) possibly a veiled threat about what "we" will do if "you" try and use those statements. Does this make sense?
To MP, who has left already: I can see your point and am happy that some of the things I have said have not been filmed and found their way to the Internet, but what bothers me in your clip is that it even contains a joke about it being posted for the world to see. And it was. I understood the comment as a reference to South Park. But really, we live in a world filled with ethnic hatred, so that would be something to avoid saying in front of a camera. You just never know where stuff like that will end up. Well, actually now you do. I will probably sound like an old fart, but let this be a lesson to you and your friends. It's just not a good idea to film remarks like that, even among friends, even as a joke. I don't think it proves anything about Amanda or any of the others in the video, but I sure don't like racist and anti-semitic remarks and I found it creepy for that reason.
MP -
"It was only meant for her friends who were already in that video. But in all honesty, her youtube profile was not something she kept up on. Though I have never asked her about the video (I was not in Seattle when it was taken) I would imagine she put it up just because she was excited about having a youtube profile and wanted to put something on there. Was it a good choice? No. She didn't advertise it though "
I thank you for your post. I understand and really...don't sweat it too much. The video only really upset only a very few people, they'll get over it...mostly the people who were upset were the kind that 'wanted' to be upset/shocked if you understand what I mean? Few intelligent people build their view of Amanda on that video and any damage that was done was only short term, so no foul. We all make mistakes, only the new danger of the Internet means we are more likely to do so in public...and we 'all' walk that tightrope.
Now, don't let us keep you from your homework
Thanks -I'm out.
Nicki -
"In this sense I think charges of false testimony, and perhaps obstruction if nothing else, could be admissible in court."
Thanks for your opinion on that, you've been very helpful as usual.
MP,
After chastising you like an old fogie, I wanted to also thank you for your clarification. It's great if people are rethinking their profiles. There's such a thing as Too Much Information and Information that Comes Back to Bite Your Butt.
I'm more like your dad. I needed to contact someone via MySpace so I created an account. But it is empty except for a photo of my cat, and I can't remember the password I used to set it up anyway.
John T -
"I wish people would have listened to what Nicki explained about that one.
She said, for them to have said anything about having DNA they would not have said it, if it had not been put to a certain test.
So, if the info is that there is DNA, then there is DNA proof. Not a maybe, otherwise they would not say it is proof."
I know John, me too. That 20% rubbish is still being spouted like a mantra in certain places (by some I also know for a fact have read Nicki's professional analysis). It just goes to show that a falsehood once put in place is a Devil's own job to get rid of. Of course some help ensure this is the case deliberately. The only way around it is to 'keep' emphasising the 'truth'.
I think AK's lawyer has also implicitly acknowledged that, although the police made a mistake, so did his client--in the statement he made to the effect that it is very serious to falsely accuse someone of a crime. I think this was (i) a plea to get that one off the books, (ii) a warning to his client and her family advisors to shut up, and (iii) possibly a veiled threat about what "we" will do if "you" try and use those statements. Does this make sense?---SB
You've done more thinking on that than I, Skep. I don't think it will be taken off the books as long as it can be used as leverage against AK. The lawyer very well may have been warning his client, etc. As it's been said, the quality of evidence that can be used to keep them in jail does not have to be of as high a standard as evidence used in a trial. So the judges can maybe use this statement now for their own purposes, whereas they cannot during a real trial, if it ever occurs. Okay, I'm outta here.
I don't think it proves anything about Amanda or any of the others in the video, but I sure don't like racist and anti-semitic remarks and I found it creepy for that reason.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.20.08 - 6:54 pm | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6
Me agree
with all that.
Sometimes, people who have a habit of tralking that way, do it in such and such a way, as to without asking, expect you to laugh along, like jokes about disabled peope, blacks, jews, I never could do it, never mind under which pretence.
The thing is, like with black people, the young black people are saying bitch, ho, nigger, to each other and whatever, but I saw this black woman, she's British and head of a huge musical charity, she accepted some big prize/award then went nuts on stage as way of a speech, at how the young black people were taking everything backwards by talking in that way, she was so angry.
She was fuming, she said I travel the world and we came all this way from Martin Luther King to rights for people and then I get called bitch and ho at my age (over 50 and fighting half her life for human rights), are you kidding she said, shame on you.
She said shame on you to black young people for acting that way. all of the work done before to get people to respect black people, so she couldn't understand how these young black people kept calling each other nigger this and my nigger that.
She hated it. She was of the people as a black person whgo will nnot draw the word across her lips and say only the N word.
The thing is this word, has associations to everything bad, and repulsive, of hundreds of years of brutality, murder, abuse, mistreatment of black people, all within slavery, done by whites to blacks, carrying them away from home to America and Britain and France and Spain, but mostly to America and Britain, okay, France too after all, and the Spanish okat too, after all, shipped the black people off to work for them.
Why do people think our world is so screwed up, is it that people are so difficult or, do we not have to face up to the past too and see where abuse led us to?
I find it no wonder at all that Western societies have been so sick for so long.
People don't even understand history and then cry and shout, oh, ours, mine, me, them, when those who are living in the aftermath of Western abuse try to escape poverty.
The West is so sanctimonious.
But no way reflective of the baby Jesus.
To me this is why all of the abuse chit chat is no way okay, even if a young black person somehow thinks it is hip.
I'd be more like the young person's mum and grandad, who were nearer to the abuse and cannot hack it, cannot stand that crap chat.
I agree with her.
Yet, part of what youth does is say that stuff that is taboo so very much and often that they try to take the power out of the words.
Like watch Dave Chapelle, in his sketches making fun of how the whites thought up some word that would carry such power, to upset the blacks.
But the abuse transeends any singular foem of abuse like racism or sexism it is just abuse towards anything and everything and this is the essence of that woman's disagreements with all of that talk.
Men who talk that way obviously do not have much power of visualization where they can picture someone saying it to their sister or mother, that'd seem less hip, seen in that light.
darn
sorry I have but a half finger
But the abuse transends any singular form of abuse, like racism or sexism, it is just abuse towards anything and everything and this is the essence of that woman's disagreements with all of that talk.
here hear ear
pdx,
Thank you so very much for your kind words. It is in Meredith's name that you and I and all the others who come here are working for. Respect for her memory is what keeps me going.
Skep -
"Then you're barking up the wrong tree with Sparrow because that is not at all what Sparrow is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Sparrow!)."
I do understand how it appears that way. There are two things going on here...firstly, what Sparrow has actually been arguing which whilst I don't agree that is what happened, it is at the same time a perfectly valid proposal...
and secondly the danger that if that is accommodated as a scenario others will cease upon it and take it even further still and twist it to get Amamda off the hook...the fact this is an idea seeded by 'Goofy' is already a big clue that this is exactly where the defence are going to go with this.
I should have made it clearer what my problem was much earlier....that's 'my' fault.
Adbar/goofy:
The computer forensics will answer part of this question (those will be back soon). The rest remains to be answered by Amanda and Rafael. Having the type of Alibi you so desire will not be eminent in regards to this case. If you are looking for such, you are not being reasonable.
Adbar,
Assuming the fact that the system clock on RS's computer was accurate:
His alibi relies on viewing the film "Amelie". Originally he said he was using his computer until 2am. He has since changed this to "watching the film".
There seems to be an undisputed "click" on his computer a 9:10pm, but questions remain over whether this constituted the start of a download, a start to the viewing or closing of the film.
NONE of this will be disputable. The records from his ISP will prove the timing of his interactions with them. Armed with that information, examinations of his computer will provide a fix on the accuracy of his own system clock.
When you add to this the fact that whether or not "Amelie" was opened at 9:10 does not prove anyone was watching it.
If you are relying on the computer forensics to prove Amanda's innocence, it doesn't sound good.
Michael (UK)
I am happy that you come here and work on this case. Please do not stop!
Michael,
The fact is we don't know yet exactly how the questioning went down. So we can disagree or agree about that, but at the end of the day what will matter is what the record shows.
As for Goofy's planting the idea, he may or may not be the first to have done so. Once again, this does not make it true or false. I'm not even sure that what Goofy says is where the defense is leading. But if that turns out to be so, what of it? To me it means they have a weak case. But the defense has a job to do, and it is as valid as the prosecution's if not more so. To tell you the truth, I doubt this assertion would be strong enough on its own to get anyone off the hook if other compelling evidence existed.
If it does, and someone you see as guilty goes free, all I can say is that this person would have to live with that knowledge forever. I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't want to if I knew I bore some responsibility.
Go and see the movie In Bruges if you haven't already. Among other things, it is about what guilt for an unpunished crime can do to a person.
What will be will be.
Have a little faith in the process.
I've never thought that Amanda was 99% there because her cellphone was found withthe other one? Isnt' it right?
No, sorry it was Meredith's cell phone
I just checked out Candy D's blog, wanted to see if they had crawled out of the mud yet, and I think I would have done better to roll in poison oak.
Hi everyone
I am new to this, I have been following since the story broke, I started reading Candy D's blogs, I never commented though, just lurked. I got tired of CD's oppressive, conrolling tactics and lucklily found this place, I started reading since haloscan III, (lurking again). I just now decided to crack a funny and say hi. I recognized alot of you from CD's first blogs (Michael UK, FinnMacool for example) you were the ones that I enjoyed reading the most, the ones who brought alot of insight and questions and didnt believe that just because AK & RS were white & cute they had to be innocent. I also enjoyed kermits powerpoint presentations, they are really amazing, I really can get a better feel for this whole tragedy with Meredith, of course it makes me feel that much more depressed about her.
All I can say is that something about this case didnt sit right with me from the beginning, I am of the consensus that the 3 are hiding something....
Hi Anastasia. Welcome.
Goofball, are you there?
Goofy, when you get here, I have a request. Kermit made a post earlier today, listing many questions for you. They are kind specific, requiring simple answers. But it's funny sometimes things that don't seem important can lead to more interesting realizations you never would have guessed. Anyway, I hope you can take a look. If there are some you can't answer, just say so. Ciao.
Thank you Sparrow =)
Anastasia,
You are welcome here. I would like to say that all of us here, especially myself, fight, scream and shout my/our beliefs, but all of us, I feel have a deep abiding respect for each other. You will find many interesting people here as well, who have acquired good insight into this case and who can be both engaging and fair minded. Meredith has found many friends here I think and I am very proud to be one of them, although, I never met her personally. I had never participated in any crime scene blog before and fell into this place by accident. I consider myself lucky that I did! Welcome to our friendly, but, strong-willed blog.
the topic here is the murder of meredith kercher, not some dummy's blog somewhere (!).
sorry to be mean, really, but this is not a message board. it is best focused on a close look, rather than banter and blather.
i hope to see this thread move forward with empathy, intelligence and knowledge and informed opinions again soon.
yes, bp, dfw is quite bright, well-spoken, and like yourself and froggy, + others, is clearly a valued contributor, notwithstanding d's theory being quite close to my own.
i'm back around, and with a new computer. (sad back story.)
hey out there. will try to hack through all the boring stuff posted over the past few weeks...and find the easter eggs hidden therein.
Fran,
Meredith had two cell phones with her on the night of her death; her own and that of one of her roommates, Filomena. They were both found the next day in a garden not very far away from the house, just outside the old city walls; a rather fortuitous and lucky thing for her I think.
I appreciate that Amanda's friend, MP, attempted to provide an explanation of the "dirty Jew" video.
MP states that the "dirty Jew" remark was "just a joke" among friends. And, heck, one of those pals was Jewish, anyway, so, if he was ok with it, that's ok.
I don't get it. Especially the *joke* part.
Let's see. You have a Jewish friend. You all crack up after someone says about the friend, "he's a dirty Jew."
WHY exactly did this elicit laughter?
WHY/WHEN is blurting out an ethnic/religious/racial slur. . . ha-ha funny?
I don't find it less offensive to know that it was done it private, and for private consumption. As a "joke."
For the record, this is NOT the first time that Amanda has been known to make questionable remarks about Jews.
A Jewish employee at the Seattle bar where she was hired related that he found Amanda to be a bit strange. One example he provided was of the first thing Amanda said to him : "Are you Jewish?" When he responded affirmatively, she told him something like; "Well, my people (i.e.the Germans) killed your people."
Oh, ha ha ha! Get it???! 'Ya know, The Holocaust thing!! Oh, my, I'm doubled over with laughter, just thinking of that. And what a clever, clever quip upon first meeting your new coworker. And so endearing, too.
Is Amanda anti-Semitic? I don't know. I can't say, and on this blog, it doesn't matter. But, like other posters, her video, coupled with her coworker's comment gave me a queasy feeling for all the reasons mentioned by others.
It may not prove her anti-Semitism, but this, plus a myriad of other reported AK behaviors speaks to me of a pattern--of a person who has some impulse control problems, narcissism, a certain recklessness, and has shown instances of poor judgment.
And then there is her rape story.
In all writing classes, instructors urge students to write about "what you know about, write about what you know best." I trust and hope that Amanda has
written volumes and volumes of material other than rape-oriented stories, as a creative writing student, and a journal writer. But, why did she select the rape story as the one to showcase her writing talents? And why did she write about rape from the perpetrators' point of view, as opposed to the victim's perspective, which would seem more. . . what's the word...? um.. normal?
Xin,
Always good to have your presence here!
I wonder if when the police pulled the duvet off of poor Meredith, did any part of the duvet stick to the areas that had been bleeding or had blood, or did it pull away easily because the blood had dried. We all know that blood is sticky, but as it dries, it becomes a crust, so if the duvet was finally placed over her after a long cleanup then that might be something of interest, depending on whether the duvet was pulled back quite easily or was stuck to the blood, it might show that either someone was hasty, or deliberate. I hope this makes sense, I am trying to find the original post, someone was talking about covering her body either before they started cleanup or after, because of not wanting to look at her, or something like that. I will try to locate the posters comments.
anastasia:
it would be worth your time to read back through at least first two commentthreads.
these links to haloscan are here:
www.meredithkercher.blogspot.com
along with a collection of other key documents and material.
key links and missing stuff welcome; we want a good reference library.
Thanks xin for the links and bpcl for welcome
Anastasia,
Great question, and I am such a naive soul I believe the investigation has yielded such information and we don't have access to it as yet. But someone does.
There was a crime psychologist somewhere, who noted that they thought from the beginning that a woman had been involved because the body was covered up/rolled up in a duvet. I can look for the link for you.
Expect the usual follow-up about how press reports are not to be trusted--an old and tired debate. There's good and bad stuff out there. A psychologist expressing an informed opinion is good stuff, for me at least.
Traduco,
I have a huge problem with it, for the reasons I indicated earlier to MP. It shows poor judgement, at the very least, even though MP's input and support were sincere and well-written.
I am trying to be fair, but it is hard to justify this in any way. I want to say, shame on you people.
Connection with events of Nov 1 less clear for me.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol...icle3385165.ece
have you guys heard? They are moving all 3 suspect to different high secruity prisons.
Anonymous | 02.17.08 - 9:19 am | #
OH GOODY goody
Amanda will see Roma
KERMIT
Before this gets too long, could you re-post your links to the various presentations shortly, so we can just say "go to top of this thread, Kermit such & such"? Thanks.
Robert M. | 02.16.08 - 12:10 pm |
kermit's presentation links are included here:
www.meredithkercher.blogspot.com
(this blog is supposed to help new readers catch up with basics, and to store key pieces of info for quick reference by everyone.
your contributions are encouraged.)
the timeline is stored there too, with versions updated as facts are uncovered.
SB,
Earlier, I think it was JohnT who posted about a lady in Britain I think who was upset with the familiar terms young people were using with one another. She even invoked the name of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King and all the work that he had done to bring society out of its obsession with color and familiarity. Today, it is different amongst young people. With the proliferation of sexual innuendo in just about everywhere you look, from TV to magazines to the internet, to the young female and male role models who are in the news everyday upping the stakes for venality, to these kids on the ytube, it is no wonder that western society is in a funk. Western Society has become narcissistic in nature. We have fallen prey to our own successes and flatter ourselves so much, that everything said is now down to the bone. There is no subtle use of the language anymore; there is no nuance. It is all about being in your face.
Anonymous,
That URL is not working.
bpcl,
Yes, it was John T and his point was well taken. I just can't accept a world in which it is okay for some but not others to say stuff like "nigger," "dirty jew," "kike" and so on. We know where that leads. Hate to be a bore, but those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it and I want to scream: not on my watch!
SB,
Did you know that when you exit just about every Concentration Camp in Germany, just above the last door is a quote from Dag Hammarskjold and it goes like you said,
"Those who forget the past are condemmed to repeat it again."
I am happy that you feel the same way as I do. As I said before, if there is one person on this blog that I would love to meet someday, it is you.
bpcl,
I tell you, we will meet. I'm coming your way, soon and will let you know.
Gotta get to bed tonight and face the early day.
I just can't bear anti-semitic remarks, not given the history of the twentieth century. I feel the same about any racist remarks. They dehumanize the other.
Bonne nuit!
SB,
Dormez-vous bien. A bientot, j'en suis sur.
xin | 02.21.08 - 1:28 am |
"kermit's presentation links are included here:"
Hi Xin, good to see you back. I haven't checked the mediafire.com links on your blog, but make sure they're updated with the 9 presentation links which are indicated above at:
Kermit | 02.16.08 - 1:54 pm |
For the moment there are 5 presentations (some have had their contents significantly updated, like the cottage floorplan, others have been tweaked), 4 of which also have slightly poorer quality .pdfs (if the downloader doesn't have Powerpoint).
((Sparrow, I'll get around to the remaining pdf!))
-
Kermit,
You are great. Thanks for all of your input.
yo kermie:
at last. new mac, can get caught up, will check those links manana, si?
missed you guys.
did you see the madrid picasso show yet? i wish i were there...damn...maybe i can get a catalog.
sb: PNW late march-early april.
"That night, it seems to me that I was in Raffaele's house, and I remember that we had dinner at around 11pm. After dinner I noticed blood on his hands, but I had the impression that the blood came from the fish. I have serious doubts about the truth of my statements because they were made under stress and shock, and I was exhausted.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, allo allo allo, whas'ts goping on ere then, you asre not obliged to say anything but anything you do say will be taken down in writing and may bve used against you in a court of law.
I'm arresting you for a fishgy story.
As a former chef it came across my notice, or was it nose? that this was one hell of a big fish sir, enormous, even the Japanese can't get whales to bleed quite that much or was it Wales? the interpreter frowned, Why is it I have to do all the work?
Finally he'd had enough, said the lover of lingo and decided not to translate but just to speak with a foreign accent, like in war films with Germans.
Ah, wosh ist losh, einen fish ya ya, blood on the tracks.
The chef of the evening Sollecito, wholloped the aforementioned fish on the head with a mallet, it didn't want to come easy sir, I tried to apprehend it for in my cuisine, there was no other way, I had to use force, I could not get the handcuffs on it either, it was a slippery fish, and had neither arms nor legs but there is always a lot that isn't seen, so there we sat as I'd decided we had better eat it instead of arrest it, when my girlfriend, who is American dontchya know, said, Hey Raffi, wus all dat blood on your hands?
I replied vehemently, Nie, miss is it not on the your ones?
I said, okay, I know an American song,
blooze,
It goes
Before you accuse me
Take a look at yourself
Anyway, it was a decent meal.
I often prepare fish like some kind of barbarian savage, not bothering to even wash my hands, cats attack me from miles around, and it sure makes the bedsheets stink but hey, I'm learning okay okay okay I said, my girlfriend bought me a gallon of bleach for my birthday, no excuse for bloody hands she exclaimed, kiss kiss.
Next day, we both forgot entirely if we'd eaten fish the only thing that remioned us vaguely of having been there and done that was the fishy smell and Raffi's bloodied hands.
Next day, we both forgot entirely if we'd eaten fish, the only thing that reminded us vaguely of having been there and done that, was the fishy smell and Raffi's bloodied hands.
((Sparrow, I'll get around to the remaining pdf!))
-
Kermit | 02.21.08 - 1:59 am |
Thanks Kermit. I hope Goofy gets to your questions. As I read them I realized they were similar to our analysis of photos... any small detail can mean something, if you ask enough questions.
xin | 02.21.08 - 2:04 am | "did you see the madrid picasso show yet?"
OT: It has been years since I was last in the Reina Sofia museum, where the exhibition is. Should take a break to see it. (that's the permanent location of Guernica, too)
-
Amanda said:
But I understand the stress of the police. And after all of these hours of confusion, these responses came out.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Amanda said:
I never asked Raffaele to lie for me. I do not think that Raffaele killed Meredith, but I think he was distraught like me. And now he is trying to get away by distancing himself from me.
I want it to be very clear that these new statements seem to me to be more unreal than what I said before, that I was in Raffaele's house. Everything that I said [before] about my involvement in the death of Meredith, even if contradictory, is the best truth I am capable of giving.
Who is the real killer? This is particularly important because I do not believe that I can be used, in this case, as a witness who can condemn someone.
I do not remember with any certainty if I was in my house on that night.
The questions that need answering, for me, are: Why do I think about Patrick? Is there any trustworthy proof that places me at that time in the place of the crime? If there is, what does that say about my memories? Are they trustworthy? Is there proof which condemns Patrick or another person? Who is the real killer?
There is is something inside me that I think is true, but there is also another possibility that could be true and honestly, I cannot say with any certainty what is right. I am honestly searching for it because I am afraid for myself. I know I did not kill Meredith. This I what I know for sure. I am very confused. At this point, my head is full of ideas and I am unable to control them."
Everything that I said [before] about my involvement in the death of Meredith, even if contradictory, is the best truth I am capable of giving.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Involvement in the death>??????
Surely she meant to say: Lack of involvement?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AK: Who is the real killer? This is particularly important
Now, you don't say? I think that was a good point Amanda came up with, 10 out of 10, it is not quite important, it's particularly important, yes, carry on dear.
Others might say, oh, killer on the loose, take a long holiday, let the children play, it doesn't matter about killers on the loose, but Amanda she's on the ball, she thinks it is important to know who the kiler is.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AK: I do not remember with any certainty if I was in my house on that night.
Oh but you would remember that darling, yes butternuts, you would, because what happened there, was so awful, if you was at home you'd never forget it, ever, the rest of your life, the life you still have, the one the Meredith does not have, that's why, you would remember, and, if you was not there, you'd be certain
cherry chops.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AK: Are they trustworthy? Is there proof which condemns Patrick or another person? Who is the real killer?
John T: Are they? No, I think you're right, you don't believe you and neither do I. Aint that a shame shame shame how you mess around and tell those lies?
No there isn't sugar plum fairy, Patrick down, one to go, and that one was Raffi, yes, who is the real killer, you him why don't you just say:
Creative writing about AK: Well, look, you all have that guy Guede, who I don't know and have never met, and he had his fingerprints set in blood, so I'm innocent.
John T: If you didn't know him surely you'd at least say, he must be it, and it wasn't me?
John T: After all, you was willing to come up with a possible killer in your ex Raffi, and his fishy and bloodied hands, and you was supposed to have a deep bond with Raffi, so why then if you have no deep bond with this guy Guede are you so afraid of him, so afraid to mention even one word in relation to him?
This gets fishy, is fishy, was fishy, and there's not even a fish hanging out.
MP
Thanks for posting and your reponses re the Jew remark....
I also wanted to point out a couple of other pieces of info though that go a little further.... did not amend also visit a concentration camp / prison and pose with a sub machine gun laughing... also I read somewhere that she worked in a resturant and made another Jewish remark to a guy working there... something along the lines "are you a Jew"? I think that there is slightly more to it than just a simple joke amoungst friends.... and in all 44 years and having been to school and had Jewish friends have I heard the term 'dirty jew'....
Regards
Brian et al
Re the timing of Amelie I thought we had deduced that it had been watched earlier in the day (as per AK story) and would have completed by 8pm on the timeline and we suspected that another film download had commenced.
Off Topic,
Love, Wolf, LoveWolf, however you want to write it, I would be delighted to share a hat with you. (right or wrong, let's do it anyway)
Corrine | 02.20.08 - 4:38 pm | #
-----------------------------
When this is over and Meredith and her family have the justice that they deserve and also need, I will book us a table at the finest hat shop in Paris Corrine :o)
Sparrow | 02.21.08 - 3:30 am |
I like this posting from way back when: "Facts are like fireflies, they are real, always there even when you can't see them, blinking in and out of view in ever changing configurations."
puzzler | 12.07.07 - 6:30 pm |
There's an old Humphrey Bogart movie - can't remember the name (not one of his best known) - where I think he's a district attourney / investigator ... nothing makes sense until he plugs in one small fact from the beginning and which seemed innocuous or unimportant at the time..
-
From the following link:
http://www.thestranger.com/seatt...tent?
oid=504236
"You know," Matthew said, leaning toward me, "a lot of people are saying she is a sweet girl and they can't believe she could have done such a thing. But, to be honest, I'm not surprised she is a suspect. Really. The first time I met her, when I got the job here, she asked me if I was Jewish. I told her I was. She then screamed: 'My people killed your people,' and began laughing hysterically. I didn't know what to say. She just kept laughing about her Germans killing my Jews. After that, I did not like her. She really freaked me out."
Does not sound like just a small joke issue amougst friends MP... sorry
Love, Wolf, I wanted to reply to you earlier, but was caught up with Michael (UK). I think what I was saying, and what you said about the detail of the PL accusation can coexist. I wasn't talking about whether or not she's guilty, just about how things happen with the police, and why Patrick was accused. It may be a minor part in the story, and I only argued it today because people disagreed, so I wanted to be understood. Like I said, a minor part in the story, but when you're looking for the truth, every part of the story has its significance.
Sparrow...
I have no issues and enjoy your postings... keep it going :o)
As you will know already I have strong doubts about all 3 and believe that they played a role that night... I also know that laws have to be followed and the case conducted properly.
I like your postings as you keep everything on a level playing field... as do others...
This is a great blog and long may it continue.. well until Justice has been served!
Thank you
Goodnight... eh probably good morning to you all, but time for me to checkout. Seeya.
Good morning in London Sparrow, sun is shining.... weekend nearly upon us.
Sleep well!
Skeptical bystander;
Great question, and I am such a naive soul I believe the investigation has yielded such information and we don't have access to it as yet. But someone does.
There was a crime psychologist somewhere, who noted that they thought from the beginning that a woman had been involved because the body was covered up/rolled up in a duvet. I can look for the link for you.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes, I would like that link when you get a chance. And it did strike me as a 'womans touch' because where I live we had a serial killer called "The green river killer' and he just dumped bodies willy nilly for years, so people could come upon them very easily.
I felt that 'duvet question' I posed could be something, but I am not sure what exactly yet, and who knows if we would hear if it was stuck to Meredith or pulled away easily.
Anastasia,
Someone posted weeks ago about the covering of the body with the duvet was a way of covering up and hiding 'guilt' also I think there was a posting about the body having being dragged in the duvet from another location in the room/cottage
My view is that it is a combination of both
Regards, LW
Question all...
May have been covered BUT if the Polish witness saw AK at 8.40, where was this, was it in the direction that one would take to go from RS flat to the cottage and also is the timing in line with the 'supposed' CCTV images of AK entering the cottage area?
Thanks LW
I chose these 3 Knox quotes specifically because (for me), they highlight the most obvious 'truth' as far as I can make out.
*********************
"Is there any trustworthy proof that places me at that time in the place of the crime? If there is, what does that say ABOUT MY MEMORIES? ARE THEY TRUSTWORTHY?"
---------------------
"I DO NOT REMEMBER with any certainty IF I WAS IN MY HOUSE THAT NIGHT."
--------------------------------
"I know I did NOT kill Meredith. This I what I know for SURE. I am VERY CONFUSED."
--------------------------------
OK, so first, she 'questions' her own memories. Are they trustworthy she asks? Well, she cannot remember whether she was at the house that night. She cannot remember if her boyfriend was at the house that night. She cannot remember why she accused Lumumba. She cannot remember a lot of things. So yes, it would be reasonable to assume her 'memories' of that night are not trustworthy.
She says she is very CONFUSED.
Well, OK, fair enough if she can't say with any 'certainty' she was even at the house the night Meredith was murdered. But isn't it actually IMPOSSIBLE for her to know for SURE she did not kill Meredith unless she knows who did it? She has described what seems to be an almost complete, and 'convenient' blackout to cover the hours in which Meredith was killed.
'Convenient' since it's only left her with one 'memory' that she knows for 'sure', that she didn't kill Meredith.
If I was questioning her, I would keep ramming home one thing - 'HOW do you KNOW you didn't kill her. . . unless you know WHO killed her?'
Am I alone in thinking this is so obvious? Or are they just words that mean nothing because of the 'stress' she was under when she was being 'hit' on the head by the police with a feather??
----------------------
On an unrelated note, please can someone tell me how to make text bold so I don't have to use caps when I'm stressing something? Thanks
---------------------------
Soozie.....
I think you have just outlined the defence case that will be submitted hinted at by C Mellas... and Goofy and his gang... i.e. she remembers bugger all apart from making love, washing RS ears and reading Harry Potter.....
This is one court case I cannot wait for.....
Cannot help on the bold font front apart from typing first in word and cut and pasting... I should probably do that as my spelling is c*ap!
Ta
I would love to know Sozzie from what point the memory lapses commenced.... that will be important.... does she remember venturing out of RS flat at 8.40 for example?
See what I mean about spelling... sorry SOOZIE ;o)
soozie UK | 02.21.08 - 9:01 am |"can someone tell me how to make text bold"
OT OT OT - Hi Soozie. You get bold by using the corresponding HTML codes.
Just before the word or words you want in bold, you type < B > (without spaces between the angle brackets and "B").
That starts bold text. At the end of the word or words that you want in bold, you type < / B > (again, no spaces). Those codes don't actually appear themselves, and you get bold text.
By substituting "B" with "I" in both the opening and closing codes, you get italics.
Here's a bold word.
Here are letters in italics.
-
OFF TOPIC (sorry Xin, but I have been letting you know right off when it is)
Sparrow,
Sorry. I re-read my posting and even went back to see how you might have thought I was referencing you. I wasn't but I can sure see how it could be misconstrued. I knew where you were going. No harm intended and I hope none taken. Misunderstanding and I wasn't entirely clear but was generalizing.
Hi, Xin...
Goofy and Aliases
A few times you have questioned about what type of girl Meredith was...
The attached is from people that know Meredith and her family.. and should help you understand the type of person she was...... It makes sad reading... and I reiterate some of the comments regarding the dignity that the Kercher family have shown since that awful night.....
http://
www.croydonguardian.co.uk...ith_kercher.php
Regards, LW
Love, Wolf | 02.21.08 - 8:21 am | "if the Polish witness saw AK at 8.40, where was this, was it in the direction that one would take to go from RS flat to the cottage and also is the timing in line with the 'supposed' CCTV images of AK entering the cottage area?"
Very important question, LW.
The only 2 references are 1) from this Australian news web site on Nov. 25
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,2...948-
401,00.html
(which in turn refers to the London Sunday Telegraph, although I haven't stumbled on the original story there), and 2) Perugia-Shocks "confirmation" yesterday that a certain Jovanovic bumped into Amanda in Corso Garibaldi (RS's street).
If there is truth to Jovanovic's existence and testimony, Amanda's legal team would quite likely take it into stride. The Australian / Telegraph article says J. bumped into Amanda "as the American left the house [RS's] about 8.40pm"
Her legalis will say something like: "of course, even though she was so stoned she can't remember hardly anything about that evening, she probably just went down to the street to buy a litre of olive oil to cook up the fish. Thank you Mr. Jovanovic for digging up that detail, which fully supports Amanda's alibi."
However, if it wasn't right in his doorway, but further down Corso Garibaldi, near the Piazza Grimana, that would be more difficult to justify, unless if the marijuana induced memory loss was so severe that she lost her bearings and she forgot where the convenience store with the olive oil was.
-
Here for your perusal, the bit about covering a corpse.
Is This The Face Of A Killer
From The Sunday Times
January 13, 2008
From the very start, investigators suspected a woman had been involved in the murder. Meredith Kercher, naked save for a sweater pulled up above her chest, was almost completely covered by a quilt. A forensic expert confided that COVERING A CORPSE WAS A GESTURE OF PITY, more typical of a woman than a man.
That day, Knoxs face betrayed no sign of anguish or sorrow when police took her to the cottage to help them search it. Inside the cottage, when investigators asked her about the way Kercher may have died, Knox made the same gesture again and again: Shed press her hands to her temples and shake her head, as if she was trying to empty her brain of something shed been through, a judicial source said, adding that she may well have succeeded in erasing the most dramatic parts of the nights events.
Thank you Kermit for the bold tip - and it works
Love Wolf I quite like the way 'Sozzie' sounds LOL
Re: She remembers washing RS's ears. . . except that HE says they didn't take a shower together that day, but then again, SHE says they 'made love' that night - and HE claims he can't remember!
Remember that the only thing SHE is sure of - absolutely sure of - is that she did not kill Meredith. But like I said before - she cannot be sure of this unless she knows who did it.
----------------------------
Thanks John T that was the article I remembered and thanks Anastasia for questionning it again.
Kermit... I agree I think that memory loss is going to be used to fend of any questions like.. 'were you there when she was murdered'.... I think it will be the cleaning up evidence and bleach receipts which may be a tad harder to use the memory loss 'joker card'..... as well as witnesses, CCTV, phone records and DNA of course...
Sozzie..... it is then...
Remember I had to change my name!!
Kermit,
They have also pinged AK's mobile outside of RS flat around that time too, I think it was her response to PL 'see you later' and I think it was by the basketball courts?
The defendant said,
I'm not sure of anything any more, weed sure does make you lose your memory but I can say this
I ate my book, smoked the fish, drank a liter of bleach but I can take my drink, I stole his underwear and glasses and said hi, I'm Tootsie.
At least that's my version and I'm sticking with it, I think, but I'm not sure, it's the best version I can think up this moment, and after all, that guy I knew, at least I thought I did, the Italian one, I heard they wanted to ship him out to Cuba, but that was just a story I think, I don't know.
All as I know, is, I bouth the Olio di oliva, and asked for an axe to grind. When they asked what do you want an axe for?
I told them, to do my nails
Thanks John T that was the article I remembered and thanks Anastasia for questionning it again.
Kermit... I agree I think that memory loss is going to be used to fend of any questions like.. 'were you there when she was murdered'.... I think it will be the cleaning up evidence and bleach receipts which may be a tad harder to use the memory loss 'joker card'..... as well as witnesses, CCTV, phone records and DNA of course...
Love, Wolf | 02.21.08 - 10:07 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^Could be, yet I sayly soeth
All ye with ears, hear
Is a person who walks with a selective memory not playing games?
There is no peace for the wicked
SHE says they 'made love' that night - and HE claims he can't remember!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He fell asleep woke up and said Huh who the heck are you
I'm the cleaner, she exclaimed, have no fear, you are not dreaming, this is reality, you are real and so am I, I think.
SHE says they 'made love' that night - and HE claims he can't remember!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could not have been that 'memorable' to RS.... excuse the pun!
Love, Wolf | 02.21.08 - 10:10 am | "They have also pinged AK's mobile outside of RS flat around that time too, I think it was her response to PL 'see you later' and I think it was by the basketball courts?"
Go back to my illustrated timeline in the "Movements" powerpoint:
At 20.35 h., AK sends the "See you later" SMS to PL (I assume from RS's flat or that area - that is one point that all sides will agree on ...)
At 20.38 h., PL's phone is supposedly pinged/detected in the area of the cottage (could be the cottage, could be Piazza Grimana, or around there).
At 20.40 h. (approx.) RS's and AK's phones turned off
At 20.40 h. Jovanovic bumps into AK in the Corso Garibaldi.
(Maybe the Jovanovic encounter happened just before the mobile phone disconnexion and not after)
At 20.43 h. Carpark CCTV camera captures Amanda on video surveillance (supposedly)
The defence legalis will try to show that there wasn't enough time for her to go from RS's (Polish encounter) to the cottage (CCTV camera) in such a short time.
Prosecution will say it only takes 8 minutes (I'm sure they've already done a court-sanctioned chronometred stroll), that any difference is due to non-synchronization of clocks, and Jovanovic just estimated the time of the encounter (he had no reason at the time of the encounter to look at his watch and write down the time).
-
Hi Love Wolf.
I drove through that side of tiown at Christmas I wass overcome, again, with sadness, the reality of where Meredith was from, where she'd grown up sinking in.
We are from West London but generations of my family came from Croydon. Then the family moved into Marylebone for a long time.
In fact, one of my ancestors, ran a tavern down a lane and there when people had consumed some drinks/ale whatever and wandered off they'd be robbed by highwaymen jumping out of the hedgerow. Right opposite the tavern was a blacksmith and the robbers, would have things like gold melted down there, and then spend the rest of the time in the tavern, robbing the visitors further down the road. Dick Turpin used to frequent the place.
I guess crime has not been unfamiliar to my family then.
When I drove through the area where Meredith grew up and lived, I realized, for beauty, it could compare to most anywhere, wonderful nature there, rolling hills and fields, that was the only bit that gave me a sense of happiness in all this, to know she'd enjoyed those lovely things.
SHE says they 'made love' that night - and HE claims he can't remember!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could not have been that 'memorable' to RS.... excuse the pun!
Love, Wolf | 02.21.08 - 10:27 am |
-----------------------
LOL, that's exactly what I said in one of the earlier HaloScans!!
When did you change your name? What was it before?
I was Chris - London but now I am enoying being 'unleashed as Love, Wolf........Sozzie!
John T - My first house I purchased was Addiscombe walking distance to East Croydon station and I played Rugby over in Coulsden and learnt to drive there back in the 80's and agree with your views... I now live in Wimbledon and work in the City. I know that the gutter press have had a field day on this but the Croydon Guardian which is a small version of Seattle PI have responded the right way on this, as have the Kercher family and I have no doubts that they have full faith in the Italian police and legal system.
You are spot on about the Surrey countryside and even further south to the South Downs, it is wonderful and I ahave many happy memories.
Thank goodness for Wikipedia ( ), (just kidding) ... he's not Polish, but Yugoslavian / Serbian:
Jovanović (Serbian Cyrillic: Јовановић is a common Serbian and Montenegrin surname. It derives from Jovan, which is comparable to John in English. The part ov designates possession: Jovanov means John's. The suffix ić is a diminutive designation, or descendant designation. So, the last name can be translated as John's son leading to the English equivalent last name of Johnson.
-
So, there's an English victim; Yankee, Ivorian Coastal, Congolese and Apulian/Puglian suspects; and Serbian and Albanian witnesses.
-
Forgot about the Swiss professor.
-
This may seem OT, but bear with me, I think it is on topic; at least it is on topic for me and my feelings on this case.
This morning on my commute another driver stole my right of way to get ahead in life or at least get ahead of me. I was angered, but there was no road rage moment, nothing adverse happened. As I pulled behind this car at the next light I noticed a bumper sticker that said RELAX ITS ONLY A LANE CHANGE.
The recent example of their driving skills, combined with this bumper sticker, made me realize that the stolen right of way of a few minutes ago was no rare occurrence for this driver. This fellow must drive like a he is the only car on the road, and seems to be clueless as to why other drivers give him the finger more than anyone else, and his rationalization to the hatred expressed by his fellow drivers is RELAX ITS ONLY A LANE CHANGE.
I reflected on this experience and my feeling toward this case. As the circumstantial evidence mounts, all we seem to get from the suspects in this case is, I am innocent; it is not as it appears. However this case is not about a lane change, and I cannot relax about it.
Now I launch into pure speculation and it is most likely unfair. But I wonder, how many inconsequential anti social behaviors these suspects have been excused for and defended from by their families and other support systems. How long have they been getting passes for being the overachieving pretty student who rises above her lower class upbringing to go to the prestigious private school, to study in Italy; the brilliant only son of a well known doctor, or even the gifted basketball player who cannot seem to focus on his school work?
It is natural to want to hand out passes to those for whom we have feelings. Our friends get excused for anti-social behaviors and we take their side when involved with clashes with those we do not know. We all tend to hold others to higher standards than we hold ourselves.
But again, I say, this is not just a lane change and it is time that one and all looked at the mounting pieces and fairly assessed what these three were doing and hold them accountable for their actions and their whereabouts for that evening.
FOP
"Now I launch into pure speculation and it is most likely unfair. But I wonder, how many inconsequential anti social behaviors these suspects have been excused for and defended from by their families and other support systems"
This is spot on and fits in with an earler discussion re AK friend MP saying that the 'dirty jew' comment to a friend was a pure joke.. maybe .. but what about the other instances like....
""You know," Matthew said, leaning toward me, "a lot of people are saying she is a sweet girl and they can't believe she could have done such a thing. But, to be honest, I'm not surprised she is a suspect. Really. The first time I met her, when I got the job here, she asked me if I was Jewish. I told her I was. She then screamed: 'My people killed your people,' and began laughing hysterically. I didn't know what to say. She just kept laughing about her Germans killing my Jews. After that, I did not like her. She really freaked me out."
I watched the 'Talented Mr Riply' last week (for 8 time) and if anyone on here has not seen it I highly recommend it for some themes in this case...
Kermit,
I don't know if this is relevant, but awhile back I mapquested RS's address and the cottage address and derived a distance of only 0.23 mile. If this is correct, then I think 8 minutes may be more than enough time.
1/
Inside the cottage, when investigators asked her about the way Kercher may have died, Knox made the same gesture again and again: Shed press her hands to her temples and SHAKE HER HEAD, as if she was trying to empty her brain of something shed been through, a judicial source said, adding that she may well have succeeded in erasing the most dramatic parts of the nights events.
2/
Five days after the murder, on November 6, Knox accused Lumumba, the manager of the bar Le Chic, where she worked, of murdering Kercher.
Knox was visibly distraught as she testified.
Knox was shouting one minute, and hugging a policeman for comfort the next. She kept making the same HEAD-SHAKING gesture shed made when police escorted her through the cottage, with her hands pressed to her forehead, the judicial source said.
3/
Questioned by Giuliano Mignini at Capanne:
Ms Knox, questioned yesterday by Giuliano Mignini, the chief investigating magistrate in the case, broke down again - this time "hysterically", with "SHAKING FITS" - when asked why she had accused Diya "Patrick" Lumumba, a Congolese bar owner in Perugia for whom she worked part time, Italian reports said today. Mr Lumumba was arrested but later released for lack of evidence, although he remains "under investigation".
Amanda Knox, the American student suspected of involvement in the murder of her flatmate Meredith Kercher in Perugia, broke down and cried during questioning when asked how she could possibly know so much about Ms Kercher's "death agony" if she was not there.
Mr Mignini reminded Ms Knox that when first questioned at Perugia police station as a witness the day Ms Kercher's body was discovered, she had told other witnesses she had seen Ms Kercher lying next to the wardrobe with a wound to her throat which had cause her to die "in slow agony". She had given a similar description of the scene to Marco Zaroli, the boyfriend of Filomena Romanelli, one of two Italian female students who shared the cottage with Ms Knox and Ms Kercher.
Although Ms Kercher's body was found on other side of the bed, police forensic scientists have concluded that it was dragged there, and that she was in fact murdered in front of the wardrobe by having her throat slit while on her knees. Asked how she could have known this if she was not there, Ms Knox began to cry and refused to reply.
She appeared similarly "confused" when confronted with the testimony of Robyn Butterworth, one of Ms Kercher's fellow British students at Perugia, who said that at the police station Ms Knox had appeared "strangely unmoved" by Ms Kercher's death and "proud" of having "found" the body. Her lawyer said Ms Knox had "exercised her right not to speak" for the rest of the interrogation.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It seems that behaviour, of the fits, the hysterics, the head shaking, all come up when forced to focus on the death of Meredith and also when confronted with things that make her think of something she wants to not see, and when confronted with things too close to the truth.
I think insanity and memory loss may be the strategy John T......
Do not think it will be she did not do anything wrong..... or was not there....
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 11:25 am | "I think 8 minutes may be more than enough time."
You're probably right. I was thinking from a defence point of view that their message could be "Amanda can't be in so many places at once", and the defence legalis could try to stretch out the transit times.
It's true, the distances are short. Although there isn't more than 10 metres which are level.
-
Knox was shouting one minute, and hugging a policeman for comfort the next." This the same occasion they were hitting her?
I dunno...
8 minutes should be long enough to walk 3/10's of a mile, shouldn't it? Particularly for someone so young! (actually .23 is closer to the 2/10 marker but then, I've been called a liberal before)
Love, Wolf | 02.21.08 - 10:38 am | #
You are spot on about the Surrey countryside and even further south to the South Downs, it is wonderful and I have many happy memories.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Love Wolf
I realized that must be one of the best areas outside London to live.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have no doubts that they have full faith in the Italian police and legal system.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LWolf: Imagine even that bit being denied them, I can't imagine them following news of it, as for them it's far too delicate, far too painful, far too personal. I do imagine they will listen only to the ones that matter, those being their aids, lawyers, contacts with the prosecutor, et cetera.
Knox was shouting one minute, and hugging a policeman for comfort the next." This the same occasion they were hitting her?
nowo | 02.21.08 - 12:02 pm | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's a good point, I never even realized the contradiction, there have been so many already.
Corrine | 02.21.08 - 12:07 pm |"I've been called a liberal before"
Be liberal. Actually, while I said that there aren't more than 10 level metres in Perugia, that particular stroll, from RS's place to the cottage is all downhill, non-stop.
-
Kermit and Liberal Corinne,
I think this short distance could be covered in very little time, whether or not the terrain is flat (Amanda is a climber, I suppose she's pretty fit).
I can do a mile quite easily in 15 minutes on a treadmill. Correcting for incline and age, I would think the distance could be covered in 5 minutes--or less, if someone was in a hurry.
Speaking of contradictions, here is something I just uncovered while looking back over HaloScan III. It may or may not be useful, may or may not have been discussed already.
Compare what Amanda says about watching Amlie:
"On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work".
With what Francesco Sollecito said in January 2008 (this is from Frank's blog entry of January 11, 200, below:
"By the way, Francesco spoke yesterday and he didn't disappoint us. He disclosed an important element. Now, thanks to him (who else?), we know the terms of the dispute about computer activity.
While Matrix was still talking about a downloaded movie he explained that it's all about the vision of Amelie and not its download. There is a human act at 9.10 pm. A single click that could decide Raffaele's destiny. For Postal Police who made that click closed Amelie, for Sollecito's experts it opened Amelie. Personally I don't think this element is that important, since I can open a movie and than going to kill someone while the movie is running. And, in any case, Dna counts a bit more than clicks. Dna can be only mine. But a click on my computer may have be done even by someone else."
I think insanity and memory loss may be the strategy John T......
Do not think it will be she did not do anything wrong..... or was not there....
Love, Wolf | 02.21.08 - 11:43 am | #
_________________________________
Yes, let's talk about insanity.
Pleasing isanity can get a person into a position of being not accountable.
Yet, it is no ticket to ride, home, because the stamp of insanity is not one taken lightly. If a person is accepted as certified insane, committed murder, then they might remain locked away forever.
This is why, so me opt out, and avoid pleading insanity, if they are senteced as having had complete wits about them, sometimes an accused and sentenced person then one day finally
get out. Get out unless the crimes were just too bad that it is written intro the sentence that this person must never be released and life must mean life in this case.
I don't think this lot will be pleading insanity.
Still, if found guilty and sentenced
there is a court where certain people add terms to the sentence, and decide on the course of action:
After a final sentence of conviction has been pronounced, another judicial panel, the Tribunal of Surveillance (Tribunale di Sorveglianza), which consists of 2 stipendiary judges and 2 experts who are not judges(psychiatrists, psychologists, pedagogists, and criminologists) may apply alternative measures to detention (misure alternative all detenzione). The principal measures of this kind are: a) probation (affidamento in prova al servizio
sociale); b) House arrest (detenzione
domiciliare); and c) Semi-liberty (regime di semiliberta`): only the night is spent in prison). (Official Gazette, August 9, 1975). In addition to these penalties, which are inflicted as penal sanctions if a person is found guilty of a crime, the penal law provides for the imposition of safety measures (misure di sicurezza), on socially dangerous individuals.
According to the Penal Code, a person is socially dangerous if he or she has committed a crime and there is a strong likelihood that he or she will
commit another crime in the future, given the characteristics of the offense and the offender. The concept of social dangerousness is based on
the prediction of recidivism.(Constitution, Art.25; Penal Code, Art.203).
Is there a special sentencing hearing? There is no special sentencing hearing. Passing sentence
and the determination of guilt occur
simultaneously. At the end of the trial, the judge immediately pronounces the verdict. The judge must issue the sentence in writing,
explaining judicial and factual motivation, and have it made public within a maximum term of 90 days after the verdict, but usually within 15 days.
Off Topic
Skep, I nearly forgot...perhaps I should be Liberally Feed Your Head...
FYH Corrine
Soozie:
"OK, so first, she 'questions' her own memories. Are they trustworthy she asks?"
This is one of the things that bothers me the most, i.e. claiming not to remember or having confused memories but knowing she did not kill Meredith.
If someone can't remember, how can they know? Read the ancient Greeks, Plato and company, for a philosophical discussion on the relationship between knowing and remembering!
On HaloScan III, I asked Chris Mellas a set of questions (6 or 7, I think). Two of them were about memory loss and recovery. I asked if Amanda had recovered her memory of that night and if she had ever suffered a memory lapse in the past. Unfortunately, this was at the time Chris decided to leave the board. Maybe Goofy, if he is out there, could come back and answer these questions.
OT:
Kermit: As you can see, I am so happy you have told us how to be bold!
According to the Penal Code, a person is socially dangerous if he or she has committed a crime and there is a strong likelihood that he or she will
commit another crime in the future, given the characteristics of the offense and the offender. The concept of social dangerousness is based on
the prediction of recidivism.(Constitution, Art.25; Penal Code, Art.203).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
These defendants, are making their own beds now, they are digging their own graves, inasmuch as they have all been shown to be telling lies, whilst being involved in a most horrendous murder. Being involved means to say, they are suspected but as yet have not been proved guilty, this business of being utterly unhelpful is already a strong indication that things are not as they seem and that much is wrong.
Instead of them having a chance later to be rehabilated, of getting parole or any number of things, their actions after this murder, I mean what they've been doing and saying up until now, means if they're found guilty they definitely will fall into the category of strong likelyhood of them committting further crimes.
The concept of social dangerousness is based on the prediction of recidivism and will then apply to these people, unless they show there is some sign of, or possibility of redemption, but there are no signs of remorse and truth is not even visible on the far horizon.
typo
rehabilitated,
Yes, let's talk about insanity.
Pleasing isanity can get a person into a position of being not accountable.
Yet, it is no ticket to ride, home, because the stamp of insanity is not one taken lightly.
If a person is accepted as certified insane, committed murder, then they might remain locked away forever.
This is why, so many opt out, and avoid pleading insanity.
If they are senteced as having had complete wits about them, sometimes an accused and sentenced person can then one day finally get out.
Get out unless the crimes were just too bad that it is written into the sentence that: this person must never be released and life must mean life in this case.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 12:46 pm |"For Postal Police ... that click closed Amelie"
Love Wolf, that's what we were talking about the other day. The Postal Police will have their reasons for stating why it's the close of the movie and not the start ... and that fits in with our thoughts. There's another item, a little more solid, for the time-line, at 21.10 h.
If RS was there at home, and AK was in the street, and in addition she said to the Serbian (not Pole) at around 20.40 h. that RS had stayed inside, it all fits in.
Speculation: she was bored with the movie, decided to go down to Piazza Grimana (maybe she had already arranged to meet someone there), RS liked the movie (Audrey Tautou is so cute) and said: "See you later" (very common expression in Italian!).
Thanks Skep, I like your boldness.
-
Kermit,
In this case, AK's version of events (they watched Amlie early in the evening) tallies with/supports the Postal Police claim about what the famous click signifies.
And in spite of what dad says, RS would not have started to download a film that he and Amanda had just finished watching.
If RS has gone back to his original story about being home and with Amanda all night, they'll need to get this detail worked out. When did they watch Amlie?
More on Le Fabuleux Destin d'Amlie Poulain
Run time: 122 minutes (2 hours and 2 minutes), plus possibly the making of, outtakes and all the extra features.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 1:27 pm |
Okay, it was a busy afternoon on Nov.1 if Amelie finished at 21.10 (therefore started around 19.30) and if they also did his "scenic tour" (as per his declaration to Matteini and presented in the Movements powerpoint). Certainly possible. I think we're seeing that the old part of Perugia is relatively small.
I'm off to the traffic jam. Later..
Hey John T,
Top of the morning to you, even though I imagine it is more like time for dinner.
Based on comments you made the other day, I'm wondering if you translate from Italian into English. If so, would you be able to translate this for me? It's just something I came across related to this case, and I'm not happy with my Italian to French to English result. Too many nuances are left out.
Here it is:
04-11-2007 L'assassino le ha tagliato la gola durante un rapporto sessuale, forse dopo averla violentata. Il killer di Meredith Kercker, l'inglese proveniente da Croydon, nell'hinterland meridionale londinese.
La giovane stata trovata completamente nuda (l'unico indumento, una maglietta, era arrotolata sopra il seno).
Il ragazzo pugliese con cui Meredith era uscita qualche volta, stato rintracciato e interrogato. Gli inquirenti sembrano non credere alla colpevolezza del giovane che, al momento dell'omicidio, pare non fosse nemmeno in Umbria.
Le ore prima del delitto: Meredith, Mez per gli amici, potrebbe aver conosciuto il suo assassino la notte di Halloween, quarantotto ore prima di essere sgozzata. Un'amicizia recente, recentissima. Meredith Kercker non era una sprovveduta. Si fidava, questo s. Tanto da aprire lei stessa la casa al suo assassino. La notte di Halloween, Meredith era andata con le amiche al Merlin pub, uno dei locali pi frequentati dagli studenti stranieri. Al Merlin andava due o tre volte alla settimana, soprattutto nel week end. Nei giorni feriali frequentava l'universit (la facolt di lettere) e la sera durante la settimana tendeva a rimanere in casa. Dopo il pub, la sera delle streghe, il gruppo si era poi spostato in una discoteca del centro mentre la sera successiva l'inglesina si era ritrovata con altre ragazze a casa di un'amica, anche lei straniera, Sophie Purton. Erano stanche dalla notte precedente le giovani, si era sedute davanti alla tv. Intorno alle 21 Meredith se n'era per andata dicendo che sarebbe tornata nel proprio appartamento, in via Sant'Antonio 7. Una passeggiata di cinque minuti. Qualche ora pi tardi stata assassinata.
Hi Xin,
I just saw your post about a road trip in March or April. I doubt you will be driven back by snow this time, but be prepared for showers.
It's good to have you back.
If RS was there at home, and AK was in the street, and in addition she said to the Serbian (not Pole) at around 20.40 h. that RS had stayed inside, it all fits in.
Speculation: she was bored with the movie, decided to go down to Piazza Grimana (maybe she had already arranged to meet someone there), RS liked the movie (Audrey Tautou is so cute) and said: "See you later" (very common expression in Italian!).
-
Kermit | 02.21.08 - 1:18 pm | #
The alleged CCTV image at 20.45 or so (sorry, I didn't look up the exact time) is fitting in well here too. But she is supposedy alone in that...
AK's cellphone was pinged by Patrick Lumumba at 8:38 pm in the evening in the vicinity of the cottage. She could not, therefore, have been at the flat of RS at this time. I believe the CCTV shows an image of a female entering at 8;48 pm(Please correct me if I am wrong about either the time or the date). Even if this image is not that of AK, she still was in the vicinity of the cottage. This ping or text message was so important to the Police, that it made them initially believe that Patrick was involved.
Kermit,
Based on your information, has the date and time of the CCTV image of a single, female person entering been established?
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 1:32 pm |Ref Amelie "Run time: 122 minutes (2 hours and 2 minutes) ...."
Okay, we posted before at the same time, I estimated 90 minutes ... so start time would have been around 19.00 h (or before if he / they watched extras).
-
Kermit,
To be precise, here's what I found:
Run time: 122 min / France:129 min
If they downloaded it, would they get all the extras? Can you tell I don't download movies? I don't enjoy watching a movie on a computer screen.
Plus, very OT, but I may be one of the few people in the world that didn't particularly like this movie.
bpcl | 02.21.08 - 3:29 pm |
Ref. the CCTV, my information is yours: the news services. Like this article, they refer to a "female figure in a light coloured skirt said to be Ms Knox (who owned such a skirt, now being analysed)" in a CCTV image at 20.43 h.
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2864713.ece
-
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 3:41 pm | Ref. Amelie, you "didn't particularly like this movie."
I don't know if I liked it or not. I fell asleep.
"If they downloaded it, would they get all the extras?"
Not likely, most downloaded movies are just the movie, in a somewhat poorer quality format (although still viewable on a computer) than eg. an original DVD.
However, to a lesser extent you can also find the files which compose a DVD for download on the 'Net. The problem is that altogether you have to download about 6 times the amount of information.
Probably RS only downloaded just the movie.
-
SB,
ce film ne m'a pas plu non plus
Kermit,
It is a known fact that Patrick pinged AK on her cell phone at 8:38 pm in the vicinity of the cottage. The image of a female at 8:43, while circumstantial at this point, is probably AK. It would fit into the time line.
bpcl:
C'est de la niaiserie pure!
SB,
Honntement, c'est la vie aujourd'hui, est cela non?
Kermit,
We also know that RG stated that he went to the cottage at 8:38 pm with Meredith. We know that to be a lie of course, but at the very least, I think it is safe to say that we can place both AK and RG at the cottage before the arrival of Meredith.
bpcl | 02.21.08 - 4:00 pm |
It fits in well, and is represented in the "Movements" powerpoint.
What we haven't seen is the actual image.
Nor resolved the conflict between the wire services referring to a female in a dress (Amanda), and RS declaring that on Nov. 1 she wore jeans.
Maybe the Serbian remembers.
-
bpcl | 02.21.08 - 4:13 pm | "we can place both AK and RG at the cottage before the arrival of Meredith."
At the cottage, or, in Piazza Grimana (the basketball court), just a few steps away.
-
Kermit,
Has it been established that AK talked to a Serbian at 8:40 pm?
bpcl:
Je suis tout fait d'accord.
Ceci dit, au sujet du film je tiens dire que je ne parlais pas de la musique de Yann Tierson, qui tait magnifique!
kermit,
At the cottage or at the Piazza Grimana, which as you said is just a few steps away. AK did say that she met Patrick at the Piazza Grimana and it might be safe to say that in reality, this was RG. What do you think?
bpcl | 02.21.08 - 4:17 pm | "Has it been established that AK talked to a Serbian at 8:40 pm?"
Just an Australian news report from November, supposedly based on the Sunday Telegraph, plus Perugia Shock. However, as a rumour, it's somewhat persistent compared to others. I believe it.
For further detail, see my interchanges earlier today with Love Wolf at
Kermit | 02.21.08 - 10:02 am |
Kermit | 02.21.08 - 10:27 am |
-
SB,
Depuis ce film, Audrey Tatou est devenu une vedette de cinma en France. mon opinion, elle pourrait avoir fait beaucoup mieux.
bpcl | 02.21.08 - 4:19 pm | "It might be safe to say that in reality, this was RG. What do you think?"
I might be totally off track, but I tend to believe in that one can do a search-and-replace on Patrick's name, exchanging it for "Rudy", and you'll get something close to a viable scenario.
-
Kermit,
Your 10:27 post is interesting. So AK sends the 'See you later' message to Patrick at 8:35 pm and yet his cell phone is pinged at 8:38 pm somewhere in the vicinity as you say. I can see why the Police wanted to talk with him. I was under the impression that it was at 8:38 pm when AK sent the message.
Kermit,
I think it is important to establish whether or not Meredith had any contact with RG at the Halloween party the night before. Was RG seen at the party? Can it be established that he was?
bpcl | 02.21.08 - 4:33 pm |
Have you seen the "Movements" powerpoint? It's a little out of date, being from early January, but you get a good chronological and geographical feel for these movements.
bpcl | 02.21.08 - 4:37 pm |
The victim was at two or three places with her friends. Notably the "Merlin" (I think maybe later at the Domus).
Rudy's story is vague. I'll have to refresh on that. I believe he said he was at a house party with Spanish friends, but they don't back him up on that (or maybe it's that they don't back him up on coinciding with the victim).
Gotta go. Ciao
-
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 2:07 pm
Hey John T,
Top of the morning to you, even though I imagine it is more like time for dinner.
Based on comments you made the other day, I'm wondering if you translate from Italian into English. If so, would you be able to translate this for me? It's just something I came across related to this case, and I'm not happy with my Italian to French to English result. Too many nuances are left out.
____________________________
Top of the evening to you, Skep.
I would have loved to translate that for you, thing is though, I can't, not well, I understand it but I'm not proficient in Italian, I'm fluent in Dutch and that's what I translate.
Nicki, she is the person who can help.
I don't think it said anything we didn't know, it looks like a report from early on, because it says they don't seem to beleve in any guilt about Meredith's boyfriend because he wasn't even in Umbria. And, if I'm right, it says something about Mez as she was known, could have known the killer recently, met him on Halloween, and let the person in. But, because this was an early report, it looks like that was just one of the millions of ideas they had to work through. An idea they pondered over before they had Amanda Knox accusing Patrick and Sollecito and Knox incriminating one and other by telling conflicting tales, that way uncementing their alibis.
Even when things look like they are saying this is the case it isn't that they are saying this is the case for sure, I think, it's just one thing they have thought about as a possibility.
Their final ideas will be clear once in court.
One thing Guede's lawyers say, is that Guede had been to the house many times.
They are not likely to be withdrawing that statement.
Seeing as how Amanda played guitar down at Giacomo's place and was often there (according to Giacomo Silenzi- Meredith's boyfriend) and Guede visited the house (the boys) often, it means even if he didn't go upstairs, which his lawyers are not specific on, they just say he often visited the house, it seems likely those two (Guede and Knox) would have met.
Thanks, John T. Next time I need a Dutch or Flemish translation, I'll know where to turn.
General reply to question of whether RG and MK had met on 31 December at a Halloween party: On the 20/20 program, it was stated as fact that they had met one another at a Halloween party the night before, but no further elaboration was given. RG initially claimed they had met that night and agreed to meet the following night at the cottage. However, the friends who were with Meredith on Halloween dispute this claim, saying that Rudy was not at the party and no such meeting took place. I read somewhere (probably the timesonline) that Rudy's claim to have been at the party in question was unsubstantiated and no witness had come forward to back this. I don't have time to check that now, unfortunately. Then there are the Spanish friends (women?) who were supposed to have been with Rudy that night. They provided the alibi that Rudy could not have been sharpening knives with Amanda and Raffaele behind a dumpster. I suppose they have been or will be interviewed at length on the subject of what they and Rudy did on Halloween night, where they had dinner, where they partied and so on.
Rudy's story is vague. I'll have to refresh on that. I believe he said he was at a house party with Spanish friends, but they don't back him up on that (or maybe it's that they don't back him up on coinciding with the victim).
Gotta go. Ciao
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Kermit | 02.21.08 - 4:43 pm | #
IIRC, the Spanish friends verified Rudy was at their house, but said they never saw Meredith.
Corinne! It was my mistake, sorry.
Oooooops, I got the lawyers mixed up, so it wasn't Guede's lawyer saying Guede had been to that house regularly, but it was Sollecito's lawyer, Maori, saying Raffaele had been there a lot.
Still, if he (Sollecito) had been there a lot, and Guede had too - according to Stefano Bonassi the boy downstairs - been a frequent visitor, surely they'd have all have bumped into each other.
_________________________________
DNA on bra links suspect to Kercher
By CNN's Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci
January 11, 2008
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- DNA belonging to Raffaele Sollecito, a suspect in the murder of a British student in Italy, was found on a bra belonging to the victim, his lawyer said Friday.
"DNA traces were found on the hook of the bra that had been cut off with a knife," the Italian's lawyer Luca Maori told CNN.
The body of Meredith Kercher, 20, was found half-naked with a stab wound to her neck on November 2 at a villa in Perugia, where she was studying.
Three suspects remain in police custody: Sollecito, 23; his American girlfriend and Kercher's roommate Amanda Knox, 20; and Ivory Coast native, Rudy Guede, 20. All three deny any involvement in the killing.
Maori admitted that the latest finding complicated the position of his client, who maintains he was not in the house at the time of the crime. He said further tests were necessary.
"It is not a strong DNA trace" Maori said. "My client visited the house frequently and that trace could pre-date the murder."
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 5:25 pm
Thanks, John T. Next time I need a Dutch or Flemish translation, I'll know where to turn.
_______________
Sure, you're welcome, anytime, thank you too.
Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher was born on February 1986 in Southwark, London.
Meredith's friends in Perugia:
Sophie Purton, Amy Frost, Robyn Butterworth, Jade Bidwell, Natalie Hayward, Helen Power
Judges:
1/ Judge Claudia Matteini
2/ Judge Massimo Riccarelli
3/ Judge Maurizio Bufali
Perugia prosecutor:
Giuliano Mignini
Perugia Flying Squad led by:
Giacinto Profazio
Rome-based Serious Crime Squad:
Mr Eduardo Giobbi (who has been seconded to help his colleagues in Perugia)
Boys downstairs:
Marco Marzan, Stefano Bonassi, Giacomo Silenzi (Meredith's boyfriend), Riccardo Luciani
Girl's upstairs:
Meredith Kercher, Filomena Romanelli, Laura Mezzetti, Amanda Knox
Knox's lawyers:
Luciano Ghirga, Giancarlo Costa
Knox's professor:
Antonella Negri
Guede's lawyers:
Nicodemo Gentile, Walter Biscotti
Sollecito's lawyers:
Marco Brusco Luca Maori
Lumumba's lawyer:
Giuseppe Sereni
Regarding Amelie... do not forget that AK stated that they had watched it in the afternoon before she exchanged texts with PL.... I will dig out the limk...
Love , Wolf | 02.21.08 - 6:24 pm | "Regarding Amelie ..."
We were talking about that earlier today (and I referred to our interchange concerning Amelie).
Go to Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 12:46 pm |, and follow the disjointed references from there on, ref. "Amelie"
Cheers
-
Skep,
I'm one of the people on this blog who is has worked as an IT-ENG translator/interpreter.
Hence, my handle. Traduco=I translate.
Here's that translation you requested.
Note that I've corrected the spelling of Meredith's surname, misspelled in the original.
----------------------------------
"The assassin cut her throat during a sexual relationship, perhaps after having raped her. The killer of Meredith Kercher, the English girl from Croyden, in the southern outskirts of London.
The young woman was found completely naked. (the only article of clothing, a t-shirt, was rolled up above her breast.)
The Pugliese boy with whom Meredith had gone out a few times,was tracked down and interrogated. The investigators seem not to believe in the guilt of the young man, who at the time of the murder, appears not to have even been in Umbria (region).
The hours before the crime: Meredith, Mez to her friends, could have met her assassin the night of Halloween, 49 hours before having her throat slit. A recent friendship, very recent. Meredith Kercher was not a nave sort. She trusted, this she did. So much so that she herself opened her home to her assassin. The night of Halloween, Meredith had gone with her friends to the Merlin Pub, one of the hang-outs most frequented by foreign students. She went to the Merlin two or three times a week, especially on weekends. On weekdays, she attended the university (School/Division of Arts and Philosophy) and in the evening during the week, she tended to stay at home. After the pub, the evening of the witches, the group moved to a disco downtown while the next evening the young English girl, was found to be with other girls at the house of a friend, who was also a foreigner, Sophie Purton. The young girls were tired from the night before, they sat in front of the tv. Around 9 PM Meredith left, however, saying that she would return to her own apartment in via Sant Anotonio, 7.. A walk of five minutes. A few hours later, she was assassinated.
Traduco,
Thanks for this. I knew you were a fellow translator, but with your connection issues I wondered if you would see this.
Next time, I'll know who to ask!
Are you a native speaker of Italian or English? Living in Italy or.....?
And thanks for the names of all cast members, John T. With the steady stream of dialogue you have provided, I thought you might be writing a play based on this tragedy; now I am almost certain.
Goofy/Abdar wrote:
It sucks knowing things that could answer so many of your questions but I am not at liberty to expose certain things. Ok...I spouted off enough now.
Goofy | 02.20.08 - 12:43 am | #
You haven't posted today (2/21), I see, so perhaps you've figured out that there's no point posting ANYWHERES. Without being able to say that When XXX says this, that's not true, you'll only increase your frustrations & generate bytes of online fights. (And, yeah, it has to be pretty broad sarcasm when written or it just sails over people's heads in this typing communication format or causes more disagreement and so more frustration.)
I strongly suggested you adopt as deep a cover as possible to enable you to make some comments, but you've chosen not to. Just flaying around.
Remember, please, that coyotewaits has already taken your general position time & time again--especially with nikki over the DNA and bleaches. I too have championed caution (since midway throuhg Halo II), re especially the UNKNOWN material in the transcripts, etc, because I have an IF/THEN attitude and always consider What the LE angle is might be, and no, I don't think its about justice, its about closing the damn case, and don't tell me that wasn't what you were doing in CID too. As above, even if all the so-called evidence we've been told about is true, it fits Mr & Ms CS as well as AK & RS an dbetter BECAUSE that outlier DNA is indeed in Meredith's room. Alternative theories we consider here all the time.
But without you being able to do any Deep Throat stuff, we all will get frustrated & chippy. If you want to come back and take shots at certain people, can't stop you, but until you can say what YOU THINK (as opposed to know), for instance, what was in one of the downstairs closets that is germane to the case, then I'd recommend staying away.
I'll say it again: there is no trace of AK in Meredith's room, and what there is of RS can be explained. But of RG's presence, there is no doubt. Of the presence of two UNKNOWNS, there seems to be evidence. If everything that ILE has boils down to this, then their circumstantial case against AK, for sure, and RS has truck-size holes.
Now, if you'd like to contribute by EXPLAINING why, as a trained CID person, you think the murder of Meredith was "an expression of power", then we'd be all ears. We've had many a LE professional drop in to other of Steve's threads to explain stuff. Explain that to us.
RobertM
How do you explain the blood DNA of Meredith mixed with AK. And how do you explain the DNA of RS on the brassiere clasp of Meredith. And the knife with the DNA of both Meredith and AK on it. And the bloody shoeprint? And how do you square up their apparent lack of alibis and systematic lying to authorities about their whereabouts on the night of the murder. On the contrary, the DNA of both AK and RS are in places where they should not be.
RobertM,
And Goofy cannot give me an alibi for AK. I have asked him repeatedly to show me an alibi that does not conflict with RS that would be able to give her some level of exoneration. To date, he has not given us one. I highly doubt that he can. AK has systematically lied to the authorities. She has stated that she was with RS during the entire time. Yet, her cellphone was pinged and messages were sent that show her in the vicinity of the cottage. We do not just need DNA to prove that she was at the cottage that night.
RobertM,
Someone has stated here, if she has such a good alibi for AK, why wait until there is trial. Why not explain to the world that this is her alibi and be done with it all? What is this cat and mouse game they are using to thwart the Police or to try and explain away every excuse in the book. He explained to me that on the day following the murder, when AK went back to the cottage, that she carried her Harry Potter book with her. Now that defies explanation really.
RobertM,
And why is it so difficult for these two people, both RS and AK, to give a simple explanation of the whereabouts on the night of the murder? Right now, according to their latest alibis, she was with him and he was not with her because he was alone. What is up with that explanation? Are we too idiotic to understand that that is an apparent contradiction in terms. Why is it that when she said she was at home, that she sent a text message to Patrick at 8:38 pm that placed her in the vicinity of the cottage? Are we to accept the fact that she was so stoned out of her mind that she did not know where she was, yet still capable to send a text message out. Why is it so difficult for the RS and AK camps to simply tell us what their alibis are and make sure they do not conflict?
RobertM,
Their apparent lack of verifiable alibis and even the merest amount of their DNA in a place where it should never be, implies to me, that they were in the cottage that night.
Well said, Robert M. - I've thought a bit about this noisy self-identified presence of Knox camp insiders on the blogs. Why should this happen at this stage of the investigation? What's the point of trying to convert every non-believer to their opinion? Hey, if it were me and I knew my daughter had a solid alibi I would have no reason to be cruising through here trying to convince anyone. On the contrary, I would have her April 1st first-class plane ticket home already purchased and not have anything to do with any of you, for any reason.
I've come to the conclusion that the Knox defense position is so incredibly weak that they've mounted a grass-roots effort to try drum up outrage and/or political support in a last ditch effort to see if there is any way that Knox can extracted from prison before the next court hearing - because if it goes that far it will be all over, well before any trial.
Goofy:
If I were religiiously inclined, I'd just post a big "AMEN" to what Robert M has expressed so forcefully above. Taking his comments on board and putting his suggestions into practice would help to bring the frustration level on all sides down a lot.
I understand that there may be some things you cannot say, but there are things you can bring to the table and questions that you surely can answer without putting anyone at risk. I have asked these questions in response to your recent statements about the presence or absence of interpreters and the existence or not of transcripts, tapes and the like (of the questioning that led to the change in status from informed person to suspect for Amanda). Here they are again:
1. Was an interpreter present? (I will spare repeating the details; suffice to say that where once it was claimed there wasn't, we have gone from Edda Mellas dsaying there was part of the time to the police saying there was all the time)
2. Was this session recorded in any way? (It was stated that Mignini handed full transcripts of some sort over to the investigating magistrate.)3. What time did the questioning begin on November 5? Or put another way: What time were Amanda and Raffaele taken in for questioning?(This should be part of the public record and will not affect the outcome of the case, so I don't see why it needs to be kept secret.)
If you can't answer these questions, is it (please put a check mark beside the best answer):
__because I don't know
__because I cannot tell you.
(There was a little friendly sarcasm in the last part.)
He explained to me that on the day following the murder, when AK went back to the cottage, that she carried her Harry Potter book with her. Now that defies explanation really.
Defies explanantion? bcpl, that's the obvious and most easily to be believed explanation. Why leave the book at RS's if you thought you might be doing something else during the day or had no plans to be there the next night? And for all of everything else, AK appears to have been conscientious about her study habits. The SINISTER explantion is the book never went to RS house. The NON-SINISTER is that she brought it and brought it back the next morning.
Again, AK may have said this in one of the transcripts, but NOTHING EXCULPATORY for her has been released or leaked from those transcripts. Which ,as several of us have said over several threads, should give us pause. ILE has only leaked stuff they think helps their [PR} case.
RobertM,
So she carried the book and the dirty laundry bag back at the same time? Do you honestly think that if she were thinking about doing her laundry, that she was thinking about a book at the same time?
Call it a wash then. I can easily say to you then, that based on her systematic ability to lie, she would be lying if she said she brought it with her. Besides, she has no one who can say she did bring the book back with her. RS never said in any of his statements that she was carrying a book. On the contrary, he did say she was carrying a dirty laundry bag. Don't you think he would have mentioned that, if he was able to recognized the BAG and the CLOTHING she was wearing?
RobertM,
And just because she never said anything exculpatory does not mean that this crime fits Coyotewaits theory. If you take the opposite side on this, there is plenty of evidence that can show that she was involved. And if you feel so comfortable about her, then could you please tell me what her alibi is then?
Robert M. | 02.21.08 - 8:09 pm repeated: He explained to me that on the day following the murder, when AK went back to the cottage, that she carried her Harry Potter book with her.
Fine, unless they located the book in Meredith's room! There's tons of details that we know nothing about - I'm looking forward to alot of aha! moments...
Fly by Night,
IMHO, there will be not 'aha' moments for this crime, just like there never are for circumstantial cases. It is their lack of verifiable alibis and their DNA in places it should not be, that is the 'aha' moment for this crime. If that cannot be accepted as fact of their presence, then so be it. Then I suggest we stop this blog right now, because it has no meaning. I say the sky is blue and you can say it is pink. Who is lying? Neither of us, because we all have our own perceptions of the way things are in life. However, one cannot be in two different places at the same time. If either RS or AK do not have alibis, and their DNA is proved to be in the cottage, then they must have been in the cottage and nowhere else.
RobertM,
ILE has only leaked stuff they think helps their [PR} case.
Why is it that you find everything so sinister about the Police, but nothing about the actions of the people who are currently in custody?
This was a BRUTAL murder. Don't you think for a moment that there might be some people on the Police force who take this personal? I mean really, the Police are human too. How would you feel if you were an investigating officer who came into the room and saw this young girl dead in a pool of blood? How would you feel if you started talking to some folks to find out what happened and all you get is a pack of lies from them. If you were and investigating officer whose task it was to find out what happened and all that you get from the person opposite you is lies, how would you feel. And it is your job to investigate. The Police did not commit this crime. People did it, and more than one; and this can be argued properly. The Police's task is to find out who did it. They may bumble, but I assure you it is not for lack of trying; it is because some of the people who they are talking to, people of interest if you will, are constantly LYING about their whereabouts.
I'm talking about Aha! when it is revealed that the DNA on the bra indisputably belongs to RS, Aha! that the shoe print without a doubt belongs to RS, Aha! that Knox did exchange phone calls with Guede - but not using her phone.....those kind of Aha! moments. Which is to say I'm less inclined, today, to believe that these Aha! moments are going to come in favor of the defense.
Fly by Night,
Understood, respect.
bcpl
Goofy can't give you ANOTHER alibi because he was being sarcastic again. The alibi is what she first said and is now sticking too: she spent the night over at RS's.
Now, you ask the following: How do you explain the blood DNA of Meredith mixed with AK. If you mean the blood drop/smear (?) on the tissue/swab (?) in the bathroom, it could have gotten there at least two ways: as part of a wipe-off by AK after M's death [but then there should be a LOT more of that in the waste basket, not a single mix], or AK really did cut herself and it dropped onto Meredith's blood from the previous day.
Again, this was announced by ILE because it SUPPORTED one of their theories. My question is, OK, what ELSE was in the wastebasket? Did any of that have any DNA on it (perhaps like Mr & Ms CS or another outlier even)? If CSI says there was no other blood DNA or DNA at ALL, then I'd have to say, Huh? Its a common wastebasket, there's got to be something. But those findings have not been released.
And how do you explain the DNA of RS on the brassiere clasp of Meredith. Its a toughy if the test was the result of a clean culture. We'll have to see.
And the knife with the DNA of both Meredith and AK on it. Whether this knife will physically match up to the type of BLADE that made the thrust cut is something that ILE has not leaked. THAT comes first. Not leaked. Therefore, DNA on it may not be admissable. Again, a not impossible sequence is transfer from AK to the blade of both her & Meredith's DNA.
And the bloody shoeprint? You mean all the prints we see in kermit's pics? One size says there 42 and another says they are larger. ILE has only leaked that they appear to be--they have NOT leaked we've matched imperfections in the sole tread to RS. Nope, haven't done that.
And how do you square up their apparent lack of alibis and systematic lying to authorities about their whereabouts on the night of the murder. You think they have no alibis based on the limited transcript releases. Me, I think is REASONABLE that RS was too stoned and fell aleep but at some point noticed AK was not there. I also think it reasonable that AK went out and came back so she spent "the whole night" in her mind. They have alibis but you don't think they hold up. Which is fine.
And one way her's won't hold up is the Polish Girl who claimed early to have talked with AK at about 8:30 going OUT of RS's place. IF the Polish girl is sticking by that story. Again, ILE hasn't been referencing it publicly (hmmmm) and we don't know if it shows up in their formal evidence for AK to be held.
WHERE IS THE POLISH GIRL and is her testimony still the same? Because if it is (that is it was THAT night she talked with AK and not another), THEN AK has to explain the time period 8:30 pm to whenever she got back to RS's.
I can't stress to you all how important the Polish Girl's testimony is. The HP book is nothing in comparison to that. And we have no idea what AK said, if anything, in any of her formal interviews. Presumably, her legal team has addressed this with her. I mean if I can square on this, they should. That testimony puts her GOING SOMEWHERES. That she has to explain.
And thanks for the names of all cast members, John T. With the steady stream of dialogue you have provided, I thought you might be writing a play based on this tragedy; now I am almost certain.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.21.08 - 7:30 pm
^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, that's what it looked like to me too, when I wrote it down, I won't do that though, you know, write anything. The only thing afterwards, once the killers are brought to justice, that would interest me, would be the psychology behind it all.
I've been collecting the names of relevant and important individuals connected to it in order to try to make some sense of stories from different people.
I expect Lumumba had two lawyers too, most probably they have to have two, one person cannot always make it to court, like through illness but there has to be someone there.
You see, I believe people are not born evil.
I do believe each one of us is on a path, and that path is bound up in thought and action, as in karma, goes around comes around, do as you would be done by, connecting to not justice in the eyes of mankind alone, but justice in a far wider spectrum of things, where nobody goes free if they do wrong, not even when they get off with a crime, before the eyes of mankind.
In the long run, I see it that we would never escape true justice, because the wrong we do to others, we do to ourselves and we are the ones removed far from real love. Look at what those who did this are losing, can anyone imagine that those who did it will have joy?
Money and wealth is not joy and neither is pleasure.
It's part of what causes people to lose the plot and go and act insanely in the first place.
People search their whole lives, for something, and all try to survive and feel well but depending on what a person is born into and the surrounding environment, at all levels, a person goes through life yet material things and physicality and being as we now all are, existing in a highly technological and materially oriented environment, where power and THE WAY, is seen as success in material achievement, where all are taught to compete and to honour the ego, it is no wonder some lose the plot in their search for happiness, run to do bad work, instead of finding light, truth, love, peace, enlightenment and self-realization?
Yes, schools do not teach those things, power at the top is shown to be through the arms race, guns, bullets and bombs, I see it as a danger where leaders instead of setting sound examples based on intelligence, instead show that ignorance based on a lack of diplomacy and appeasement is the way to do things.
Children will not be getting better with time, there are going to be more, victims and victims of victims.
How - if the leaders say they are people of God, Christians or whatever, yet say we must use guns and bombs - can young people grow up to know what is truth? is this all not a reflection of how insane our world, not only was always, but has become, even more so now, a violent world?
bcpl wrote: So she carried the book and the dirty laundry bag back at the same time? Do you honestly think that if she were thinking about doing her laundry, that she was thinking about a book at the same time?
Ah, yes, she certainly COULD have done so. Thats common multi-tasking. Heck, every Sunday 39 years ago when I walked to do my laundry at a mart in Georgetown MD, I either brought a book or stopped on the way and bought a Sunday NEW YORK TIMES. Really, I've NEVER not brought something to read when doing laundry, even when I fully intend to liste to radio in my car. (Though I'd much prefer to have my own machines again.)
bcpl, I'm not asking you not to believe they are guilty. I'm asking you to winnow out the chaff (i.e the stuff that easily has two explanations like the HP book) from the wheat kernels (the Polish girls' testimony).
Now THAT is what I want Goofy-Abdar to address, because she as an eyewtiness is, next to a CLEAR CCTV pic, directly refutes part of what AK has been maintaining. DIRECTLY. Anythign with the HP book is sooooo indirect as to be worthless by itself.
last post of the night
Ciao
Robert M to bcpl: "I'm not asking you not to believe they are guilty. I'm asking you to winnow out the chaff (i.e the stuff that easily has two explanations like the HP book) from the wheat kernels (the Polish girls' testimony)."
Bpcl, I think Robert M is right to say that any piece of evidence for which a plausible alternative explanation can be posited by the defense has to be looked at as chaff (i.e., as a "gimme," something you are willing to let go of if need be).
On the other hand, if a pattern of deception can be established, something like this, if entered as evidence of something, may be less likely to go the defendant's way.
My bottom line here would be to say it's not a good idea to build a theory that absolutely requires the Harry Potter book. I always thought it was kind of over the top and extraneous. I'd love to know where the leak actually came from.
Maybe the book WAS found in the victim's bedroom. the fact is, we don't know. And frankly, how can you put much store in the claim that the Harry Potter book was being read at Raffaele's when you basically don't believe anything these people say? Maybe that was just a lie too. Maybe it was at the cottage the whole time. Maybe Amanda took it everywhere, as Goofy suggested. This is the same person who wrote a voluntary written statement to police about her "mental confusion" and "best version of the truth," who says she doesn't really remember much about that night except that incidentally, she didn't kill her roommate.
You're right, the apparent contradictions within and between alibis is a problem for the defense teams, and I'm sure they're busy working hard on that as we speak.
Goofy was "right" when he said he knew Amanda had taken it back to the cottage the next day because she said she did and he believes her. You do not. She said she was reading the book the night before; she neglected to mention that she packed it up and took it back home with her.
And therein lies the crux of the matter: the credibility of the persons involved.
Fly By Night: Thanks for that clear statement of what seems not quite right about the recent flurry.
At the risk of offending Goofy, I feel like we have learned far more about him than about what he knows about this case that we don't. I would love it if he would share his experience in breaking down suspects and say a word about SOP when it comes to the conditions under which questioning is carried out. For example, does it depend on the psychology of the individual? Are there "soft" and "hard" approaches? How long does it take for the average person to crack? How much of what is given up under these conditions is actually wheat? How much is chaff? And so on.
Oh, my! I forgot to close the bold thing. Sorry!
Robert M:
By the way, according to Frank, the Polish girl is not Polish and not a girl. It is discussed there and here, above. He is Serbian.
bpcl,
One way to look at the question of why Knox and Sollecito are not screaming their alibis from the rooftops is that they are hoping the case against them is so weak that they will walk on April 1, and so won't have to coordinate their alibis.
Another is that their defense attorneys are waiting to see all of the evidence against them before they rebuild and tweak their alibis in light of what they have to explain.
I mention this because if you look at their statements in diaries (released by their lawyers), what is in the judge's report, and what is in the statement Amanda wrote, you can see that there is lots of wiggle room. I mean, is she waiting for the evidence against her to be presented before regaining her memory about that night? Wouldn't that be weird!
Joe Tacopina stated some time ago that the bar is very low in Italy in terms of what evidence has to be presented during a preliminary investigation to keep a suspect in jail without filing charges. My question is: does this mean that the suspects themselves and their lawyers have not been presented with all the findings? After all, the investigation is pending. Does anyone know exactly how that works in Italy?
Well said, Robert M. - I've thought a bit about this noisy self-identified presence of Knox camp insiders on the blogs. Why should this happen at this stage of the investigation? What's the point of trying to convert every non-believer to their opinion? ---Fly By Night
Maybe it's just that they believe they're right, and it hurts to see speculation based partially on untruths, about someone they love. But like us, they can't stay away. Goofy's been around for a long time, and many of his earlier posts turned into what seemed to be the ignorant ravings of a madman, simply because he made them when he was angry, and he was hiding behind anonymity. But maybe he realized that wasn't doing any good. How could we take Tabroid Hater seriously, after all? Why would we believe anything he says when he's so extreme and abusive? Maybe when he wasn't angry, he saw that we're mostly good and intelligent people, and he wanted to be able to talk to us in a better way. He certainly did so, and I appreciate it. What we say in these comments won't affect the case, but people still care what others think, when they're living among us.
RobertM & SB,
Okay, I understand. But I hope you understand too that I was not trying to make the issue of the book important, I was just trying to use it as one more example of the pattern of lies that is associated with this young girl. Perhaps people here who have spoken about her are right; perhaps this young girl has definitive issues with, well with her own credibility as a human being. I did not wish to believe this to be the case before, but maybe, just maybe there is some truth to it. From my own perspective and perhaps this might be too rigorous, I look at the sum of all points to make a reflective decision.
I do not know who this poster, Goofy is by the way. Assuming he is a personal friend of the family, why would you think he would be of any assistance to us here? IMHO, he would only give points that would be deflective or peripheral to this case, nothing substantial.
bcpl: "And how do you explain the DNA of RS on the brassiere clasp of Meredith."
Good question. But what I'm wondering is how the police will explain the DNA of two other people, not matching any of the suspects, on the bra. They will need to identify the sources of the DNA and explain how it got there or Sollecito's defense will render this piece of evidence useless.
Daniel,
You may be right there about that. And it might be rendered useless as you say. I am not privy to the DNA of other people on it to be sure. Even if what you say is true, why is it that the DNA of RS is even on it? You could argue the case that other people could have been involved, but RS was there too. So that does not exonerate him from this crime.
Does Rafe have a washer and dryer? She was going home to do laundry? Why? It was a holiday. After a long leisurely night of movie time and love making (not out drinking and partying where one is hung over all day and wanting puke or drink a swimming pool of water) I would have woken up and said, "Honey, lets go do something fun today! It's a holiday! Let's go go get coffee and sit at a cafe and have a cute Italian wine infused lunch and go home for another shower!" She'd been camping at his place for weeks and was not known for her cleaning fetish. Why now? Just sayin.
(ps. Thanks for the helpful BOLD lesson. I feel fancy!)
After a long leisurely night of movie time and love making (not out drinking and partying where one is hung over all day and wanting puke or drink a swimming pool of water) I would have woken up and said, "Honey, lets go do something fun today! It's a holiday! Let's go go get coffee and sit at a cafe and have a cute Italian wine infused lunch and go home for another shower!"---Jumpy
That's cause you're a lot more fun than those two jumpy. Well... that's not the only reason... I'm just sayin'.
Jumpy,
AK sent a text message to Patrick at 8:38 pm in the evening. This call was located near the cottage. She cannot say that she was home doing all those things you are saying. At 8:40 pm, like that of RS, her cell phone was turned off. From that point forward, no one can say where either AK or RS was, not even AK or RS themselves.
Damn straight!
Well said Sparrow:
Maybe when he wasn't angry, he saw that we're mostly good and intelligent people, and he wanted to be able to talk to us in a better way. He certainly did so, and I appreciate it. What we say in these comments won't affect the case, but people still care what others think, when they're living among us.
Sparrow | 02.21.08 - 10:23 pm | #
Sparrow:
I hear what you're saying. You could be right. It's one of those things where the motives are known only to the actors, and in the end that won't even matter. They do expose themselves to FBN's interpretation, which I had been thinking about in part because my husband's view is very close to FBN's. The other thing is that Goofy was happy to post here and there under various handles, without indicating that he was an FOF until recently. Why? Maybe for no reason whatsoever. Maye he was emboldened by his friend Chris. I dunno; it doesn't matter. But I do feel a little frustrated having stuff dangled but not delivered.
Jumpy,
You're like a scary mind-reader. I love this bold stuff, plus I was just thinking today about what you just wrote. I swear. Again, the decistion to go home and shower and do laundry could be totally innocent (but the fact that there was a shower the night before is weird, although Americans do tend to love their two-a-day showers). Personally, on a school holiday, I know I would probably be sleeping in, then heading to the nearest caf for a leisurely hot beverage before going for a long stroll.
bpcl
I know she was saying that. But she also said they watched movies and Rafe washed her ears and the like. I was commenting on the fact that one story stated that they stayed home for movie love but she awoke in the morning to go home and do laundry. He said she got up and he went back to sleep. I know this is one of many many many many stories and I was just saying in my stupid way that I don't think that they were anywhere but at the cottage from about the time that Meredith came home to the next morning. Unless of course they were at the local Circle K buying bleach.
SB,
If you please, could you give me a short synopsis of Coyotewaits theory?
Jumpy,
You are funny! You made me laugh. And I thought I was jumpy!
Does anyone know... was Ubob one of Goofy-abdar's aka's??
bpcl, and skep, and kermie and everyone else,
You guys are amazing with your consistent, thoughtful points. I don't know but this has really hit home to me and I hope for justice for the Kercher family. I am familiar with this type of situation very personally (is that the way to word it?) and watching Greta and 20/20 and others gloss it over for ratings by putting blood-sucking non-working attorneys on the air in hopes for work (see Mark Geragos in Peterson trial), who think it is a game....Don't get me started. I believe in justice but for some people it is about winning and not doing the right thing. Anyway, I've noticed some posters questioning the amount of time and heart they have committed to this and I have to say, don't stop. You are doing the right thing. There is someone not on this earth anymore who would appreciate it, I think. Nighty night.
Jumpy,
Justice will be served, maybe not in the way we like it to be, but it will be served nonetheless. Justice is always slow, maybe too slow for some of us, but it must be. We have to have it that way because, well because it is important that everyone think that it has been applied justly. Many people on this blog have pointed out injustices that have happened in their own lives and feel it is important for us to understand that. It is important too, to show respect to the families of the accused to be sure, but we can never, ever forget that, to quote you, "There is someone not on this earth anymore who would appreciate it..." greatly. And you are most correct about that.
Jumpy "...for some people it is about winning and not doing the right thing." I think that's actually the reason we're here.
But what I'm wondering is how the police will explain the DNA of two other people, not matching any of the suspects, on the bra. daniel mintz | 02.21.08 - 10:35 pm | #
Police said that they were unable to confirm reports that DNA traces not matching the three suspects had been found on Ms Kerchers bra, suggesting that others were also involved in her murder.
The police now say that the only traces of dna on Merediths bra are those of Rudy, Raffaele and the victim.
DLW,
Thank you for the follow up. I appreciate that very much.
bpcl
That 2 extra dnas on the bra threw me for a loop when first reported on the English papers. But I think thats been pretty well discounted. Which confirms mine and many others suspicions that a lot of interaction or a mishap was required to leave dna behind.
Rhonda, bpcl, Jumpy et al:
I am on my way out the door so cannot do justice to coyotewaites now (where are you cw?), but maybe someone else can. I just wanted to say that I had that same thought about Ubob, Rhonda. If so, that incarnation of him was living near the Mexican border...The guy sure gets around.
Goodnight!
Goofy's still here. Sorry Goof, that I asked you if you were TH. Your honesty was commendable, but might have made things more complicated. Anyway, you'll still do what you do. Ciao.
agdfjkk
Sparrow and Goofy,
I think posting under so many names might have complicated things, not asking about it. But does it really matter? Sometimes, the temptation is to respond to the "handle" and not the idea being expressed.
Anyway, I wondered last Friday if Goofy and Ubob were the same person, but it isn't a big deal or anything. Is it? Looks like Rhonda had the same thought.
I mean, look at the insightful post above, by anon.
Skep, I think that anonym was Goofy, just saying hi... or swearing at us.
If you were ever to go undercover yourself, you'd have to bite the bullet and give up your new boldface habit. If not you'd be so easy to identify!
Sparrow,
I knew that. I was being sarcastic--as Robert M says, that is difficult to convey in this medium. And no way am I giving up the boldface. For weeks, I've been saying I must learn it. And it turns out to be so easy. HA!
Fly By Night.... I agree regarding your game plan theory.....
I also feel that this is not about Amanda being innocent anymore but family, friends, politics, Seattle, States being scared of the fact that AK played a role in the killing / murder or Meredith. This is about reputation, saving face.... that is my cynical view of what has been going on over the past 2 weeks.....
I feel that mentally and emotionally AK would not be able to even face a trial.. signs of that has already been seeing breaking down when asked simple questions.... she knows much more than she has said so far and prosecution and police will keep on pressing those buttons.
_____________________________________
"I've come to the conclusion that the Knox defense position is so incredibly weak that they've mounted a grass-roots effort to try drum up outrage and/or political support in a last ditch effort to see if there is any way that Knox can extracted from prison before the next court hearing - because if it goes that far it will be all over, well before any trial.
Fly by Night | 02.21.08 - 8:05 pm | #
From Guardian 10th Nov....
"The document reports that the postmortem found bruising on Ms Kercher's lips and gums, and on her left cheek and chin. These injuries were compatible with a prone position into which the young woman was forced, as well as with the pressure on a face crushed down on the ground to hold her still."
-----------------------------------
It is clear from what we know of this case that more than one person was in that room, holding down Merdith and assaulting her before finally murdering her. This was NOT just the work of Guede as he would have had to had help from others either holding her face down and also threatening her with the knife.....
LOVE wOLF: This was not just the work of Guede as he would have had to had help from others either holding her face down and also threatening her with the knife.....
Totaly agree...
What i dont get is - 'The document reports that the postmortem found bruising on Ms Kercher's lips and gums, and on her left cheek and chin. These injuries were compatible with a prone position into which the young woman was forced, as well as with the pressure on a face crushed down on the ground to hold her still."
So if they now that is the case, why now are they saying MK wasnt raped? Or do they just think, she was horribly attacked and assulted due to the report above.
Just a question to everyone in general, how open is everyone to psychic ability? or a gifted intuitive? And what they might say about this tragedy?.....seriously.
I would be open to hear what one would say, but I know that many consider it a psuedo-science.
Its not
Because to quote William S. 'There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy'
If this is too out there, then just ignore it. And I apologize.
Oh Yes I FINALLY watched 'The talented Mr. Ripley' for the first time, because many of you talked about its parallels, and I can say in all honesty, I see what you mean!
Hi Pandora
"Or do they just think, she was horribly attacked and assulted due to the report above".
I think she was horribly attacked and it was a deliberate attempt to degrade and humiliate her... based on the following motives:
1) AK wanting to get even with someone that was stepping on her toes and stealing her glory / job / attention
2) RS wanting to experience extreme pleasure, follow his girlfriend like a good lap dog does
3) Guede fancying all woman and having very little respect for women
Throw those 3 motives and individuals together with a mixture of sex/drugs/alcohol and no stict rules to follow being away from parents and guardians and..... viola.......
Poor Meredith just happended to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people.. at a time that they knew that noone would be at the cottage and coming back to the cottage......
Anastasia.. I am pleased that you enjoyed it..... the soundtrack and scenery is amazing.... and the storying / plot is compelling....
Anastasia | 02.22.08 - 5:32 am | "how open is everyone to psychic ability?"
Many years ago in another life, I was on a search and rescue team. Whenever the victim couldn't be found in the area where he / she should have been, the authorities had a couple of psychics on hand who they spoke with (I never knew who these people were nor what their credentials were). As far as I remember, on not one occasion did the psychics ever give any ideas that lead to the location of a victim.
That said, their comments and observations were valuable from the point of view of thinking of what may have happened / the state of mind the victim could be in.
In other words, their psychic powers weren't worth anything, but as psychologists they probably had some contribution to the overall effort.
-
Anastasia
The best parrallel's in the film are:
1) Somone that was mentally imbalanced and nobody realising
2) Over protective parents at the end doing anything and everything to protect the families reputation
3) Carefree foreign young adults living the dolce vita
4) The lies......... and dishonesty
Good morning everyone,
another cold but shining day in Milan
Last night I watched the talk show Porta a Porta on the Italian National TV. Presents were RG lawyers and one of RS consultant, a magistrate (of course not involved with this case), the CNN guy in Rome,plus the usual phone interview with dr Sollecito. They had Joe T. on the phone who engaged in an exchange with RG lawyer. I tuned in after the show had already started, however I was able to watch most of it, so here's a brief report of what I think may be of interest to us:
RS DNA on bra: Dr Sollecito now is saying that RS touched the bra while it was on the essication line. When asked if Raffaele still speaks about AK and if he has indeed totally dissociated himself from her his answer was he never speaks about her, and "that relationship" didn't have a future anyway.
Biscotti RG lawyerforcefully stressed several times how Rudy "is not the only one involved", but "he is the only one who has been saying the truth until now". He added that RG defense is tired of seeing his client demonized as if he was the only "scoundrel" while the other two suspects are being sort of "sanctified" and referred to the 20/20 show as to a "clowns show".When asked about the Albanian witness he answered he still hasn't seen the act, so he cannot pronounce himself.He sounded quite aggressive.
Phone interview with Tacopina:W.Biscotti forcefully stated that he disagrees with the accuses of incompetence moved to the investigators during the show, and polemically asked Joe T. how he could be so sure of AK total non-involvement,since not even the defence has been able to read the complete reports until now. Joe T. has replied that based on what he has seen he cannot formulate an hypothesis on AK and RS guilt, but that the evidence is pointing more to RG. He didn't state AK innocence. The 20% knife issue was not discussed or, it has been discussed before I tuned in.
The magistrate confirmed that when sombody is heard as " person informed of facts useful to help the police in solving a crime", a lawyer doesn't have to be present,but it is provided when their status turns to the one of suspect. In this case an interpreter was provided for AK when she was "heard" as a witness, and both the interpreter and the lawyer when she interrogated as a suspect. Magistrate stressed the concept that witnesses are not "interrogated" but "heard". She also said that after prosecution arguments for preventive incerceration are accepted by the judge, they are immediately made public so everyone can read them, including the press, but they do not necessarly represent all the evidence that prosecution may have.Whatever self-incrimating statement has been made during the witness phase cannot be used in court, but it can be used to change the status into the one of suspect.As for the timing,she feels that the trio will get to trial just by the 1 year limit, and they will still be incarcerated. This tells me that she doesn't think that on April 1st they-or some of them-will be released.
CNN guy was partly justifying the 20/20 show-heavily criticized by everyone but Dr Sollecito-by the differences between the Italian and US systems, as he has to explain daily to his US conterparts.He said that the leaks to the press have came mostly from defence and surely not from prosecution.
Some handwritten pages of Rudy's diary from February 6 or 7 were read-they are filled with sensitive, sweet and profound reflections on Meredith and life and death in geeneral, plus sweet thoughts for the Kerchers. One statement he makes on his diary I find interesting : "sometimes in life some people may allow other people to lead them off the right path, but if they are strong they can resist and change the course of the events. Alas, he (RG) is not a strong person, so he hasn't been able to do so". He continues writing that he is certain the justice will come to light.
My overall impression from what I have heard on the show is that RG lawyers are sending out some clear warning signals...
From IMDB.com (Internet Movie DataBase):
"Also Known As:
The Mysterious Yearning Secretive Sad Lonely Troubled Confused Loving Musical Gifted Intelligent Beautiful Tender Sensitive Haunted Passionate Talented Mr. Ripley (USA) (complete title)"
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Nicki
That was a wonderful update, thank you.
Lots to mull over there.....
Best regards, LW
nicki | 02.22.08 - 6:26 am | - "Biscotti RG lawyerforcefully stressed .... He sounded quite aggressive.
My overall impression from what I have heard on the show is that RG lawyers are sending out some clear warning signals..."
Thanks Nicki. Let's hope the spring thaw is starting.
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Kermit, Nicki,
I get a sense it is...... RS team overstepped the mark regarding pointing at Guede re show print .... they will by now be regretting that I suspect!
I think Guede will be breaking the code soon..... and the fun will then begin.....
correction....
shoe print...
Love, Wolf | 02.22.08 - 6:36 am |"I think Guede will be breaking the code soon... "
I don't know if it will be soon, but it definitely will be broken.
I'd like to know who hired Rudy's lawyer. Of the three legal teams, he has the most difficult job (given the weight of evidence against Rudy), but I think he'll end up showing the most professionalism as a lawyer.
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Kermit,
I think he actually has the easiest job... he has a client that he knows was there... is telling more 'truths' than anyone... and is probably the most likely to be the one that tells the everyone the role he actually played that night... especially as RS and AK teams tactics are to point the finger at him. Guede team have been silent, professional and effective so far.
The other suspects will try and lie there way to the bitter end and will no doubt support by their family, friends and legal people... I am sorry but "memory loss" will not save their skins!
I think we are in for an interesting few weeks up to 1st April...
Love, Wolf | 02.22.08 - 6:45 am | "Kermit, I think he actually has the easiest job"
Granted. All Rudy's lawyer has to do is put Rudy in the best light as is possible, being guilty of ... his involvement. It's like not fighting the current of a river which is sweeping Rudy along, just swim to the nearest and best part of the shore.
However, the others - depending on the evidence that ILE has (which I think is growing) -, the other lawyers will want to / are under client (parent) instructions to swim back upstream.
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Kermit...
I like your wording...
"swim back upstream"
I can almost visualise them actually doing that!!
Nicki et al-
If you wait a couple of days, then go here, you'll probably find that RAI will have posted by then last night's Porta-a-Porta program.
http://www.raiclicktv.it/raiclic...d=2098&
pagina=1
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Thanks Nicki
Dr Sol seems to be dictating a version for his son.
That is very transparent of him and you'd think such a clever guy would hasve more sense. He really is a daddy as opposed to dad. To me, that stinks in such a case, the moral the father shows is entirely lacking, that he plays with facts, sitting at home making up excuses for his son.
If it wouldn't be such a shame on the family name he would perhaps have said his son was cross-dressing go go dancer by night.
Ciao Love,Wolf and Kermit
Yes, after watching the show I also think that very likely RG will break the code.W.Biscotti was vehement when stating that his client is the only one that has not changed version until know. Interestingly he didn't comment on the "unknown Italian murderer" indicated by Rudy, when someone brought it up...
I think watching this show was quite useful, because it has cleared a few important points:
-The defense teams are split: AK/RS on one side, RG on the other, perhaps on the verge of going agaist each others.
-What can or cannot be used in court.
-Source of leaks; some details made public because so the law requires, but possibly more evidence unreleased, lots of press speculations.
-RG team determined not to let RG go down by himself.
How they 'll manage to do the latter, we'll just have to see...
John T | 02.22.08 - 7:07 am | "Dr Sol seems to be dictating a version for his son."
Yes, Dr. S is an excuse machine. But as Robert M. pointed out in one of the discussions that went on last night in my sleep, it doesn't matter:
Dr. S. can come up with bra-cross-dressing, with his son helping with the laundry, or whatever he wants, but it's all chaffe.
The wheat in this story is the evidence, hopefully the more - in volume - and the better - in being not circumstantial.
One DNA point of RS on the victim's bra and no other evidence whatsoever doesn't add up to much. But the sum of all evidence (whatever all that evidence is that ILE has), is what will convince the trial judge, or not.
The trial judge (when the time comes) doesn't need Dr. S's imagination to consider the value and contribution of each piece of evidence.
The rest is throwing the chaffe up in the air and letting it being carried away on the broadcasting airwaves of the world, but offering little substance or conviction of ideas.
-
"If it wouldn't be such a shame on the family name he would perhaps have said his son was cross-dressing go go dancer by night".
John T | 02.22.08 - 7:07 am |
I fully agree
Hey Love Wolf, thanks for the explaination reagarding my post earlier,makes things clearer in my mind, yet still so sad and angry to what happened to Meredith
I havent seen Talented Mr Riply either, so guess I'l see if i can get it at the weekend and judge the paralles you all talk about
My overall impression from what I have heard on the show is that RG lawyers are sending out some clear warning signals...
nicki | 02.22.08 - 6:26 am | #
Thats good news, i hope rudy speaks out. In an ironic way, even though he admits guilt and being there, he is so much more of a 'honest' (if that's the right word..) culprit, compared to the other two. The courts will see that, surely.
Hi Pandora
"Hey Love Wolf, thanks for the explaination reagarding my post earlier,makes things clearer in my mind, yet still so sad and angry to what happened to Meredith"
---------------------------------
Sad and angry but I am very bouyed regarding developments and things going on Pandora and I have total faith and confidence that justice will prevail and that makes me smile today!
Yes, Dr. S is an excuse machine. But as Robert M. pointed out in one of the discussions that went on last night in my sleep, it doesn't matter:
_________________
Yes, agree, but, let's say, as things stand, son is involved up to his ears in this, and it's bad enough already for his respected father, therefore if dad had any sense, which, even though we can all imagine, we'd want to help our friends or family, still, as an upright and well-thinking person, you cannot make it right, to pervert the course of justice.
In Dr Sol's case, then, not just having it bad enough that his son-love, is up to his ears in it, he puts himself in a bad light and then falls into the same boat of lies and deceit, through the stupid lame excuses, that way he will not seem credible.
If he was clever (and darn, he must be that), he would avoid doing that if he wishes to be any help to his son at all, later on, his word will mean little.
Remember, this is a panel of career judges with lay judges assisting.
It is made up of a President (a Judge qualified for the Court of Appeal), a panel judge ("giudice a latere") who is a judge qualified for an ordinary court and six lay judges (guidice popolari).
It is not a jury they have to convince.
It is a battle between defence and prosecution at the feet of the 8 judges.
The two parties must convince these judges that their version of events is the correct one.
Anything anyone says, these judges are going to take into account, all they know and gather, in their attempt at making a rightful judgement, based on evidence and how it all fits. Character assessment will play a part. A man seen to be a man of his word will come across as far more believeable than someone who is a flitter flutter, and without scruples.
Wrong strategy and wrong choices Dr Sol.
John T | 02.22.08 - 8:02 am |"If he was clever ... he would avoid doing that"
Agreed. From a pure legal (not moral) standpoint, it's in his son's (legal) interests to just shut up.
-
But someone a while ago on the thread speculated that maybe along with his new wife (I loved Charles' Mudede's description of her), this case in a strange way is actually invigorating Dr. S.
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John T | 02.22.08 - 7:07 am |
I fully agree
nicki | 02.22.08 - 7:23 am
_______________________________
Hi Nicki.
Hey, do you get me when I find someone saying, "a speck of DNA"
is mad, because a speck fits with like, a speck of dust, but when talking of DNA, to say a speck of DNA shows that someone has no real idea of just what DNA is?
I mean a speck, in DNA terms, is as large as a house. It's like saying a chunk of DNA. A speck of dust can be seen, DNA is microscopic and invisible. All of it is far less than a speck.
The TV interview, I was glad to see them stating how not all evidence has been shown to defence yet, that's what I have been saying, they only have to show that once the defendants have been charged.
Even then, in certain cases, not all of it has to be shown, if it would damage the case for prosecution.
John T
I think that AK and RS teams are VERY worried about what has not been revealed yet and also the risk of Guede spilling the preverbial beans also.....
I would advise there teams, parents, PR teams to stay quiet for the time being and work silently as there is a big risk that they may all look very silly when more details are shown....
Agreed. From a pure legal (not moral) standpoint, it's in his son's (legal) interests to just shut up.
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Kermit | 02.22.08 - 8:05 am
__________________
Yes legal, but, my opinion is for him, as man of his standing, he could lend weight to what he says simply because of his good name but to show that not justice is the priority but self-interest is a low moralistic stance and, is damaging to his position as to trying to come across as an upright and honest person. He creates a situation where he is no better than a common thief by being dishonest if he demonstrates that he is that.
If he wants to stand as a credible witness, and to be convincing he cannot get himself a name as an opportunist, he will lower himself and the judges are looking at these people, and listening and trying to be fair. If I tell you 20 lies and they are so bad that not just you can easily see it is bull but everyone else can see it too, would you believe my word when I say, Believe me Kermit, he's a good boy, he this, he that.
It's not a jury. It's a panel of judges who are assessing everything, in all totality, they have to believe someone after all, or believe nobody, but then, there's no case, so either they are going to believe the versions put forward by the defence teams or the prosecution. People are important, not just the evidence, there must be a story, there must be written documentation under Italian law, in order to justify the decisions make.
Hi Nicki.
"Hey, do you get me when I find someone saying, "a speck of DNA"
is mad..."
More than mad they haven't the slighest idea of what DNA is and how it is detected
I have total faith and confidence that justice will prevail and that makes me smile today!
Love, Wolf | 02.22.08 - 7:42 am | #
I'm smiling too Your right, and with the developments with RG lawyer/s knowing he isnt going to take the full rap, and he's not going down without a fight, so to speak..yes justice will prevail!
I hope, dispite the tragic loss of losing their daughter and sister, the Kercher family will be able to smile when this justice prevails
Pandora.... It was also pleasing to see people ridicule Joe T and the garbage that he came out with on 20/20 show. I think that they are planning a follow up show as part of the PR bandwagon... cannot wait for that one... where is my popcorn?
I think that they are planning a follow up show as part of the PR bandwagon... cannot wait for that one... where is my popcorn?
Love, Wolf | 02.22.08 - 8:44 am | #
Salty or Sweet? ha ha
Are they now? interesting... Let hope
people ridicule Joe T and the garbage that he cames out with on the follow up show :D
Has to be butterkist for me... sweet tooth.... :o)
At least Joe T will keep banking the $$$ though..... he is not daft..... he does not give a damn about this case but he has a healthy bank balance.....
John T
I think that AK and RS teams are VERY worried about what has not been revealed yet and also the risk of Guede spilling the preverbial beans also.....
I would advise there teams, parents, PR teams to stay quiet for the time being and work silently as there is a big risk that they may all look very silly when more details are shown....
Love, Wolf | 02.22.08 - 8:18 am | #
__________________________________
You know Love Wolf, I have the feeling that Guede didn't kill Meredith.
How he fits in, I don't dare say.
The further it goes, a step forward is right back because I get to feeling as if what was said first by the investigators is right, that all three are involved.
It feels like somehow, it is Guede who is being set up and framed, the tampering with the crime scene was not to set him up but to mislead and those two, Sol Junior and Amanda Knox, may have hoped he'd be away, known he was off and away, and then hoped his trail of evidence would lead nowhere, they not knowing he had a record. That plan then, that way, if it was like that came unstuck.
I get the feeling it was Sol and Knox who told Guede the racial line, a black man this that and the other.
I cannot, even when I keep stretching my imagination see Meredith having done anything cobsensual with Guede. Not based on what she had told her dad about Amanda having so quickly had all kinds of relationships going on with men. Not based on what Meredith's friends say about Meredith's character and them saying that they thought that they'd have known about it from Meredith if Meredith had been planning anything with any guy. Then not based on what Giacomo Silenzi said about how he'd left Perugia for a short family break and how their affection for one and other had been growing, Meredith telling him, as last words ever to him, "I will wait for you. It's okay go"
The pictures of Amanda with Raffaele in that store where they bought lingerie, really give me the creeps, do you know why? Well, they look so god darned happy and laughing, it looks to me to be totally sick, and kissing just like they were outside the house.
If that with Guede had been consensual, in a way, it'd have made it easier to think, hey, he was gone/had left, then it was Knox and Sollecito who killed Meredith, then tried to make it look like rape and murder, instead of just murder.
But then it can't be that, because according to Guede he had seen this guy with brown hair actually stabbing Meredith and he said
"He did not have glasses.""
It's like saying and, "he did not wear a top hat." "He was not riding a bicycle or horse at the time." "He did not have his leg in plaster."
So I think all three of them are demonically entwined in the grieveous whole.
Guede is covering still for them, but to me it feels as if, contrary to popular belief, he may be the least vicious of the trio. This is what his lawyers may be waiting to spring on the others, because, just maybe, Guede has come up with the goods and told his lawyers exacty what happened and he is telling the truth.
We know little of the character of Guede except for this defining him as a thief a burglar but by all accounts that was a one-off, a dealer, well nbig deal, it was soft drugs, weed, and if that is so bad, that in every setence it has to be said The drug dealer Guede then it ought to be said in every sentence The hash smoking drug using Knox and then, the same for Sol Junior. The Italian drug using Sollecito, the American drug using Amanda Knox, who was arrested and fined in America, bla bla bla. One size must fit all, but in descriptive terms, it does not. To be fair, one must leave out that characterization of Guede as some demonic drug dealer. One size must fit all. Yet, only where it suits a person trying to slant the thing one way or the other, decriptive terms are used, in one-sided fashion.
The drug using Amanda Knox who was fined in America for disturbing the peace and who wrote stories about rape, bla bla bla.
It isn't fair to do that, not to Meredith, it is not fair because it is misleading and not helpful.
The poor standards of journalism involved, where they all seem to copy each other, by saying, The Italian/African Guede, a drug dealer and burglar...
is unhelpfuul too.
What is needed, is to know, was he a violent person? Did he have a bad temper?
Who is he really?
And the same is true of the other two, who are they?
More than mad they haven't the slighest idea of what DNA is and how it is detected
nicki | 02.22.08 - 8:26 am | #
___________________________
I'm pleased to here you say that.
I mean if a person has a good argument, then all respect but that..
Love, Wolf: Has to be butterkist for me... sweet tooth.... :o)
mmm..mmm...MMM..Good choice!
At least Joe T will keep banking the $$$ though..... he is not daft..... he does not give a damn about this case but he has a healthy bank balance.....
It's sad really, that he just wants to make money out of all this, and all families are suffing, weather it be the Knox family financially (i figure also emotionally) and/or the Kercher family.
All familes are victims here and this fat cat wants to raise his profile even more and milk it money wise, over the tragic murder of Meredith.
John T
I am 90% in agreement that Guede was there and part of the assault.. but did not kill Meredith or she was still alive when he ran off (Why would he want to kill her). I think AK was holding the knife to her throat and it may not have been intended but that knife cut Meredith and they panicked, Guede runs off.... and AK and RS remain to decided what to do... I think that the knife loving RS then decided to put an end to Merediths life as that is what they thought they needed to do in order to escape any punishment. They were only interested in saving their own skins... had no remorse for their actions and acted like the cowards they are.
The pictures the following days tell everything, the picture where AK looks at the camera... that is not the face of a sweet girl who has lost her dear friend.. that is the look of someone hiding a dark guilty secret... no emotion.. just cold.... The pictures of them buying underwear gave me the creeps because they looked like a couple that thought that they had got away with murder.. literally....
"The pictures of them buying underwear gave me the creeps because they looked like a couple that thought that they had got away with murder.. literally...."
You know, I thought this was quite significant as an insight into the mindsets of AK and RS...but then it emerged that the police sealing off the house meant Amanda had no underwear making a shopping trip required and apologists for Amanda were quick to dismiss it...so that was that.
But then I thought about it some more...and it's not right after all. When you have just been deprived of your underwear and are suffering from a severe inconvenience, simply requiring a few pairs to tide you over until you can get your stuff back...what you do is rush out and and buy a couple of multi-packs of briefs or so. These can be gotten from markets, supermarkets or any general purpose clothing shop. There is a 'big' difference to that...and making an afternoon of going into a sexy 'lingerie' shop with your 'boyfriend', as when one does that there is always going to be a 'sub-text' with that, especially when your flatmate has just been brutally murdered. It certainly does not reflect the tone 'my flatmate has just died horribly.'
Further. Much has been made of Amanda going back to the house due to 'laundry' requirements on the morning of the murder. She took an 'empty plastic bag' with her, so this states she intended to 'pick-up' laundry as opposed to taking laundry there or doing laundry in the house. Now, since I'm assuming this wasn't a great big 'bin-liner' Amanda took with the intention of lugging it back bulging through Perugia...I'm infering a carrier bag of some sort. Due to their size, carrier bags are more suited to carrying smaller items of clothing such as light/thin tops (as opposed to say jeans and voluminous sweaters say) and 'underwear'. Underwear is also of course the thing most people wear and need to wash the most often. So since the whole purpose 'apparently' was for Amanda to go home to collect clothes she would have had underwear would she not? Even if they were all dirty, it would have taken next to no time to hand wash a small pair of briefs in the sink and dry them out over night (plenty of women do that).
To all those who have just recently posted to the blog for the first time....welcome
Yet 'ANOTHER' Meredith Kercher/Amanda Knox blog started. I think someone's going for the record:
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.c...ives/
132428.asp
It makes sense to me that Rudy's lawyers would keep any confessions he might have made to themselves (I assume that's legal?) because he knows he is involved enough that he will end up doing some time anyway.
But I don't understand why Amanda's and Raffaele's lawyers are not trying to get them out right now, if they are as innocent as they claim. I can't believe they are willing to spend a year in jail waiting to prove their complete and total innocence. Just doesn't make sense if they have the evidence they need to pull it off now.
This is a minor point, Michael, but I wanted to mention that the shop (Bubbles?) actually is a general clothing store, not a lingerie shop. But I agree - buying one thong and one bra (I think that's accurate) is hardly going to tide over someone who has supposedly lost access to all her underwear.
kb -
"This is a minor point, Michael, but I wanted to mention that the shop (Bubbles?) actually is a general clothing store, not a lingerie shop. But I agree - buying one thong and one bra (I think that's accurate) is hardly going to tide over someone who has supposedly lost access to all her underwear."
I thank you for the correction. I was actually unaware that it was just 'one' thong. In that case, it indeed blows out of the water the idea that the trip was primarily to replace missing underwear even partially. It more suggests a 'sexual' reasn for the outing, that combined with the fact RS was in tow. That being said, I think people are very much entitled to make something out of it in regard to the psycology of AK and RS after the murder
I agree, Michael. Here's the link and an excerpt. Of course, who knows how accurate it is...
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,2...948-
401,00.html
"They came into the shop and were there for about 20 minutes. The girl bought a vest and g-string."
I'd like to know who hired Rudy's lawyer. Of the three legal teams, he has the most difficult job (given the weight of evidence against Rudy), but I think he'll end up showing the most professionalism as a lawyer.
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Kermit | 02.22.08 - 6:40 am | #
I don't know which person chose Biscotti and team, but the government of the Ivory Coast is paying for Rudy's legal representation. This is a very lucky break for him. I've also been impressed by them.
As for why Rudy doesn't spill the beans. I am certain that for at least a few minutes, while in Germany, he planned to do this. At one point he did say that he could name the killer, then he disappointed with only a description. After he desperate flight and stay in a German jail, it seemed he was longing for Italy, even an Italian jail, but maybe once he returned, his welcome was a rude shock? I don't know.
kb -
"They came into the shop and were there for about 20 minutes. The girl bought a vest and g-string."
Yups...a vest is exactly what you need when you've got no knickers!
Actually, it's funny, the link you gave also carries mention of the 'Polish' witness who is currently under discussion...brings it into a neat circle.
Yet 'ANOTHER' Meredith Kercher/Amanda Knox blog started. I think someone's going for the record:
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.c...ives/ 132428.asp
Michael (UK) | 02.22.08 - 11:47 am | #
Just read it - was brave of Candice to share that terrible experience she went through... Must have been really awful...
The title of the that blog: Meredith Kercher: Why Her Murder Matters
Well, isnt that what everyone on this blog (and im sure other people affected by this tragic murder) belive? Thus trying to solve what happened that night? Of course it matters, it always has done and so does the truth... (sorry i dont get the title of the blog. why now?
Shouldnt have that been one of the first writings of that blog, rathr than 'Amanda Knox: What if she is innocent' and publishing that 'Doug Preston's' idiotic views?
Maybe im going on one, but i dont get it.
Sparrow -
"As for why Rudy doesn't spill the beans. I am certain that for at least a few minutes, while in Germany, he planned to do this. At one point he did say that he could name the killer, then he disappointed with only a description."
My own view is that he's cleverly decided to hold it as an ace up his sleeve...as collateral to ensure that the others don't say anything to make his situation 'worse'. I don't think Rudy is as stupid as some people think him to be and his lawyers, all things considered, have done a good job so far. I'm actually glad his country is helping him out with his legal team. Whilst I do feel sorry for the knox family...I have even more sympathy with Rudy's father. He cuts a very sad and lonely figure having to bear the burden of his son's woes on his shoulders all alone through this...no ABC or Joe T support for him...or even a wife to hold the hand of.
My own view is that he's cleverly decided to hold it as an ace up his sleeve...as collateral to ensure that the others don't say anything to make his situation 'worse'. I don't think Rudy is as stupid as some people think him to be and his lawyers, all things considered, have done a good job so far.---Michael (UK)
Yes, certainly. But the point at which he said he would tell the name, was the point at which he felt he had nothing left to lose. This is the kind of time when we can all make the right decision. And the look on his face when he returned to Italy was one of "I just want to end all of this." Frankly, when I saw those photos, that's when I decided he was not the killer. So, his clamming up, although it may be smart, is surely a disappointment, and a return to the corruption of life.
Pandora...
"Shouldnt have that been one of the first writings of that blog, rathr than 'Amanda Knox: What if she is innocent' and publishing that 'Doug Preston's' idiotic views? Maybe i am going on one, but i dont get it."
I agree with you but to fair to Candace I think sh has taken some advice/feedback onboard - probably down to Skep and others and things have improved... and it was a brave postings regarding her experiences.
What ruined it for me though was a posting from Funnycat talking about Amanda and Meredith in the same sentence as if it may have been Amanda murdered that night....... that pi**ed me off but I resisted posting.
Sparrow, JW, and others who don't have powerpoint: here's the latest presentation - Premeditated Merlot - in pdf formt ...
http://www.mediafire.com/?4xxszbtmctg
If you already have successfully downloaded and viewed the powerpoint version, don't worry about this - it's lower resolution and doesn't have the bits of animation.
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Kermit,
Thanks for getting things back on track.
Wolf,
I suggest if you have something to say to or about Candace, that you say it over there. It seems that every Friday we regress to this and I for one am tired of it.
Jumpy made a very good comment last night, which I think is a good reminder of why we're here:
"I believe in justice but for some people it is about winning and not doing the right thing. Anyway, I've noticed some posters questioning the amount of time and heart they have committed to this and I have to say, don't stop. You are doing the right thing. There is someone not on this earth anymore who would appreciate it, I think. Nighty night.
Jumpy | 02.21.08 - 11:19 pm | #"
The subject here is Meredith Kercher.
Love Wolf I am 90% in agreement that Guede was there and part of the assault.. but did not kill Meredith or she was still alive when he ran off (Why would he want to kill her).
---------------------------------
Did I read right that you live in Wimbledon (or was that someone else?). Well, if it was you, you must have heard the news today that chef Mark Dixie was found guilty of the murder and rape of 18-yr-old Sally Anne Bowmann (killed in CROYDON).
The police said it was one of the most vicious murders they'd seen in British history. Stabbed 7 times, sexually assaulted, bitten and then finally raped AFTER she was dead. The stabbing was so severe the knife went in through her back and out through her abdomen The thing is, it turns out this guy has done it before. He stabbed a girl in Australia 10 years ago and then had sex with her afterwards. It seemed like his 'thing'. I don't imagine he set out to murder them, but more to have some strange twisted sexual experience while they lay dying. He was also high on cocaine and alcohol at the time.
So in answer to: "Why would Guede want to kill Meredith" - maybe he didn't. Maybe no one 'wanted' to kill Meredith. Maybe it was like the Sally Anne thing - a sexual thing 'enhanced' by violence and it went too far. If Guede and RS and Knox were that high on drugs, I would guess (in the furthest realms of my imagination) that perhaps it was the same kind of situation as poor Sally Anne.
And the murderer actually came up with a story even more ridiculous than Guede's far-fetched tale of listening to 3 songs on his iPod and having a poo just at the time Meredith was being murdered. This guy claimed he had stumbled across Sally Anne on his way home, and had sex with her (in a huge pool of blood) without realising she was dead! So he was saying someone else killed her, and then he had sex with her corpse. Does it get more tasteless?
I imagine we're going to hear equally outrageous lies from our own 3
suspects.
------------------------
Love Wolf,
I know you didn't mean any harm, but as I was at the center of the storm I am really keen to see it cease. I'm sure you understand.
Soozie,
What a horrendous crime. And so close to home for the Kerchers, in more ways than one. I'm glad to hear that justice was done.
Sparrow -
"Yes, certainly. But the point at which he said he would tell the name, was the point at which he felt he had nothing left to lose. This is the kind of time when we can all make the right decision. And the look on his face when he returned to Italy was one of "I just want to end all of this." Frankly, when I saw those photos, that's when I decided he was not the killer. So, his clamming up, although it may be smart, is surely a disappointment, and a return to the corruption of life."
I fully agree with you. But you know...when things look really bad and you're down, waking up on a new day things can often look a bit brighter...maybe that's what happened with Rudy. I also suspect his lawyers may have had a part part in his decision....after all, he'd originally made the promise to name the killer (I think) over the Internet before his lawyers had a chance to get a full hold of things. Despite the romantic feel to some of his diary writings, spending a few years on the streets as an alien would have made him a realist. I think another factor may be that when he considered telling the full truth he also came to think about how his word would be taken in the face of two clean cut middle class white kids and maybe didn't rate his chances. Since AK and RS were already in custody and firmly under suspicion....what his 'cleverest' story would have been would have been as it was, but to substitute RS/AK standing there knife in hand on his coming out of the toilet for the mystery Italian man. That would have made much more sense and be more believable then what he told...but maybe that's the ace he's holding as a last resort. If they were involved, it would not be lost on AK and RS that Rudy need only fill in certain blanks of his story differently, whether they actually be true or not, to put them bang in trouble and reading between the lines I think that's the implicit threat he's made to them from the beginning.
Just out of curiosity...are you still inclined to the view that RG is innocent of the murder...I know John T is starting to think along those lines?
What a horrendous crime. And so close to home for the Kerchers, in more ways than one. Skeptical Bystander | 02.22.08 - 1:57 pm |
------------------
I know. I was thinking about the Kerchers while the trial was going on. And murdered in Croydon too. . .
But Sally Anne died within about 30 seconds according to the reports, and I was thinking that the Kerchers would be remembering how long it took Meredith to die.
See, reminders like this will crop up all the time throughout their lives - and for them (like me) - it won't just be a casual glance at a newspaper with a few sympathy words - it will be a very real reminder of the sheer horror their own daughter went through.
Once something like this has happened to someone you love, you can never hear about a stabbing without your own memories and images flooding back. This is the curse Meredith's family have to live with thanks to the perpetrators.
--------------------------------
Jumpy: Wolf,
I suggest if you have something to say to or about Candace, that you say it over there. It seems that every Friday we regress to this and I for one am tired of it.
That was me not Love wolf, who origanlly posted.. Though wasnt making a point about Candice, just why now, have the title: Meredith Kercher: Why Her Murder Matters?
However I will refrain from writing about, on this blog. If you look at my post I just dont get why now? when it should have been done well before.. However point made and taken..end off
Skep, Pandora - absolutely.....
PLEASE If we accept that much of the DNA/Lab stuff will be valid (I do), then according to the ILE leak, Rudy's DNA was found in Meredith's handbag--along with Meredith's blood. Which could have gotten in there after he got in there or at the same time. Deposit time of evidence is tricky of course. Nonetheless, unless Rudy's defense team has the Big Ace in reserve, he remains the one most likely to be found quilty of murdering Meredith. Gawd knows what he's told his lawyers, or whether they even believe him, though Biscotti seems to have some certainty if he presents as such on TV.
For another UK case, see the wrap-up onthe Ipswich Strangler case in today's Telegraph, which indicates that the found guilty Mr. Wright offered no explanation at all before trial, then he and his defense tried to craft his version around the CSI material. They also put him on the stand and he apparently didn't do well--I'd say. Steve's original thread on this is available under archvies for late 2006, I believe. If this is everyone's strategy in Perugia, its real dicey for each in their own way. BUT if Rudy maintains HIS version, its actually quite favorable for AK becasue as I repeat at this stage its all circumstantial in her case (so long as she has answers for things like the Polish Girl at 8:30 pm). But what Rudy is WAITING for, is beyond me.
P.S. When did the Polish Girl who said she talked to AK at about 8:30 pm on Nov 1 turn into a male Albanian? I will check with Frank, but I am not referring to the car incident up by the garbage cans. If such a LONG-TERM fact can evaporate, dissipate like the shoe evidence at an unsecured crime scene, what can be believed?
I'm off now too, snow is closing down my building. Back when I can. Or when the trial starts! Or RG sings!! Or...
.
Just out of curiosity...are you still inclined to the view that RG is innocent of the murder...I know John T is starting to think along those lines?
Michael (UK) | 02.22.08 - 2:05 pm | #
I think Raffaele made the fatal stab. I don't know what Rudy's or Amanda's role is. I've tried to picture Rudy and Raf being friends, and working together, but I can't do it. But as Soozie reminded us above, it could have been the drugs/alcohol that facilitated extraordinary events.
I don't believe there's a lone killer (or more specifically "assailant"). I trust the LE judgment that there were more people involved is true. Raf's fear that Rudy would tell "strange tales" is extremely suspect. And, although some like to think Amanda is the one who controlled Raf, I think it's the other way around. After their arrest, she's the one who's been lost, flailing around, unable to handle the pressure. He's been comparatively cool. He's the one who rejected her. She tried to reach out to him. She's the one who's desperate for him. Look at the photos of the morning MK was found. The one where they are facing each other in an embrace... she looks away... a moment to get away from his oppressive influence, while he is intensely focused on her. I know all the things I listed can be interpreted another way, but that's how I'm seeing it at this time.
Sparrow makes a lot of sense here (and elsewhere, obviously). I remember Amanda Knox stating (I'll try and find the reference) that her relationship with Raffaele was the most intense one of her life. Also, he's an "older" man. I think the tabloids and trickle-down therefrom have made way too much of Amanda's sex life and party girl past. I am pretty sure that she does not fit the man-eater portrait that has been painted for her and that she has been forced to wear. This is not to say that she is an innocent thing--see Kermit's reminder the other day of the myspace entry about her roommate getting laid by the washing machine repair guy--who was corrupted by Raffaele, of whom it has been said that she was only his second "serious" girlfriend. We're in the gray area again. Who led who? The apparent intensity of the relationship is interesting: they knew eachother for a total of two weeks before "this" happened.
Like Sparrow, I am starting to see Raffaele a little differently. A few days ago, I was ready to believe that he played no role except in a misguided clean-up. It's all pretty much speculation at this point, though.
Sparrow:
You say "the government of the Ivory Coast is paying for Rudy's legal representation'
Could you please provide a source for this?
"P.S. When did the Polish Girl who said she talked to AK at about 8:30 pm on Nov 1 turn into a male Albanian? I will check with Frank, but I am not referring to the car incident up by the garbage cans. If such a LONG-TERM fact can evaporate, dissipate like the shoe evidence at an unsecured crime scene, what can be believed?
Robert M. | 02.22.08 - 2:30 pm | #"
No, no, RobertM, not a male Albanian and no relation to the garbage can incident of October 31. The originally reported "Polish student," who somehow morphed into a female Polish student is, according to Frank yesterday, a real person and witness, but neither Polish nor female. He is a Serbian male. We don't know if he is a student.
This is not to say that she is an innocent thing--see Kermit's reminder the other day of the myspace entry about her roommate getting laid by the washing machine repair guy--who was corrupted by Raffaele, of whom it has been said that she was only his second "serious" girlfriend. We're in the gray area again. Who led who? The apparent intensity of the relationship is interesting: they knew eachother for a total of two weeks before "this" happened.---SB
Certainly, in regards to sex, she is not an innocent thing. But I really see her as a shallow young woman, innocent in the sense that she doesn't understand much about real life, re: her seeming lack of understanding of the ramification of her words and actions in so many incidents we've already examined. I see her as quite empty, as many young under-challenged people can be, kind of ripe for the influence of another to come in and fill in the gaps. She's in another country, telling herself to be open to different things, probably not able to see Raf for who and what her really is. Hey, he's smarter, stranger, more exotic than she is in her view, that much, she knows. I don't think AK is arrogant the way Raf is. AK is just missing a lot of things. Her descriptions of life on her myspace page shows that. She's not manipulative, she's careless. Raf is arrogant and manipulative. Just my interpretation.
Sparrow:
You say "the government of the Ivory Coast is paying for Rudy's legal representation'
Could you please provide a source for this?
Minotaur | 02.22.08 - 2:51 pm | #
This question was asked in the comments on one of Frank's (Perugia-Shock) articles. I think it was the article about the fathers of RS and RG. He gave that answer, but provided no reference for it.
Sparrow, JW, and others who don't have powerpoint: here's the latest presentation - Premeditated Merlot - in pdf formt ...
http://www.mediafire.com/?4xxszbtmctg
If you already have successfully downloaded and viewed the powerpoint version, don't worry about this - it's lower resolution and doesn't have the bits of animation.
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Kermit | 02.22.08 - 1:35 pm | #
Hi Kermit, I got the following message when I tried the link you provided above:
Invalid Quickkey. This error has been forwarded to MediaFire's development team.
Are you making adjustments?
I have even more sympathy with Rudy's father. He cuts a very sad and lonely figure having to bear the burden of his son's woes on his shoulders all alone through this...no ABC or Joe T support for him...or even a wife to hold the hand of.
Michael (UK) | 02.22.08 - 1:04 pm | #
Yeah - and that was some foster family he got - they're nowhere in sight.
So, his clamming up, although it may be smart, is surely a disappointment, and a return to the corruption of life.
Sparrow | 02.22.08 - 1:29 pm | #
Though it's frustrating, I'm not sure I agree that it's a moral issue for Rudy to not tell all he knows at this point. I think he knows that what he says isn't going to end this case before the trial. Getting as much of the truth as possible is more important than getting it quickly.
Sorry Kermit, it also said this: The quickkey you provided for file download was invalid. This is usually caused because the file is no longer stored on Mediafire. This occurs when the file is removed by the originating user or Mediafire.
RobertM,
I got your drift yesterday. Thank you.
Sparrow -
"I think Raffaele made the fatal stab. I don't know what Rudy's or Amanda's role is. I've tried to picture Rudy and Raf being friends, and working together, but I can't do it. But as Soozie reminded us above, it could have been the drugs/alcohol that facilitated extraordinary events."
Fair enough. For myself, I haven't been able to get past their 'being involved' to who actually did what so I don't have a view yet, although my inclination bounces back and forth as evidence is discounted and new things/angles emerge. I do find the idea of Rudy being innocent of the actual murder very interesting though and I shall persue the idea.
I'm actually starting to find Rudy the most interesting character...he is as much a mystery as RS if not more. Most of what is thought of him is down to the couple of run ins he's had with the law combined with the fact he's not a priviledged university student. Many have built a whole profile of him from those sparse things. Still 'now' in some places he's being refered to as the 'small time drug dealer', like it's his 'occupation/title'. Nothing negative reported about him in the media is questioned, but immediately accepted as fact in many places. Many have even inflated him into some 'uber-thug'. Whilst there has also been unhealthy sensationalism and some degree of predjudice with Amanda, this has been challenged on many fronts and the overall view of her has changed...not so with RG...as has been mentioned by some here. I think this is dangerous and could possibly lead to erroneous conclusions.
Though it's frustrating, I'm not sure I agree that it's a moral issue for Rudy to not tell all he knows at this point. I think he knows that what he says isn't going to end this case before the trial. Getting as much of the truth as possible is more important than getting it quickly.
kb | 02.22.08 - 3:16 pm | #
True.
Whilst there has also been unhealthy sensationalism and some degree of predjudice with Amanda, this has been challenged on many fronts and the overall view of her has changed...not so with RG...as has been mentioned by some here. I think this is dangerous and could possibly lead to erroneous conclusions.
Michael (UK) | 02.22.08 - 3:23 pm | #
I've challenged it several times here Michael, and sometimes have been supported by John C., John T., and Skeptical Bystander, I think, if not others. I started to question things when I saw the photos of his return to Italy, and since then, value more the words of people who knew him, rather than the simple labels that are used to describe him in the media or expanded opinions of him based on those labels, and made on blogs.
Thanks Sparrow. It seems to come from Il Messagero of 21 November-- not as trustworthy as La Repubblico or the Corriere. But I quote nevertheless:
Il team di difensori, composto dagli avvocati Nicodemo Gentile, Walter Biscotti e Vittorio Lombardo, nominato questa mattina tramite l'ambasciata della Costa d'Avorio a Roma e l'associazione ivoriana umbra, sabato mattina si recher in Germania a Coblenza per incontrare il ragazzo.
The existence o an 'asocazione ivoriana umbra' is (at least to me) unexpected. This is surely the family who adopted RG, and whom he failed, and who are now feeling guilty about that. Bully for them.
Michael,
RG's lawyer has publicly stated that as of this moment, his client is the only one telling the truth. I think RG spoke the truth to his lawyers about what happened that night. I believe that is why they are speaking so confidently. I remember his lawyer trying to get Italy to use Germany's laws of incarceration before an extradition would go forward. That did not happen of course, but I do believe that they knew back then, the extent of RG's involvement and were trying to mitigate his punishment.
That being said, if the other two people in custody are implicated or found to be involved in the death of Meredith Kercher, then it must stand that one or both of them caused the fatal wound. Interestingly enough, both of them have sort of accused the other of causing her death in their diaries. There is still however, the issue of the kitchen knife with the DNA of both AK and Meredith Kercher on it! This could mean that the initial wounds were caused by AK and the final blow by RS. This is pure speculation on my part, however, and I admit that, not having been there. If however, RG is telling the truth that when he came out of the bathroom(possibly confronting RS who in turned yelled the expletive deleted at him), he might not be able to say which one of the two caused the fatal wound. This could be the reason why both RS and AK indirectly implicate each other.
Sorry: that should have been La Repubblica; and 'exitstence of'
The existence o an 'asocazione ivoriana umbra' is (at least to me) unexpected. This is surely the family who adopted RG, and whom he failed, and who are now feeling guilty about that. Bully for them.
Minotaur | 02.22.08 - 3:33 pm | #
This is interesting. Why do you think the AIU is the Italian family and not a cooperative association of expat Ivorians and friends? That's what I would have assumed... And thanks for finding that. I'm kind of lazy about that kind of thing.
Sparrow -
"I've challenged it several times here Michael, and sometimes have been supported by John C., John T., and Skeptical Bystander, I think, if not others. I started to question things when I saw the photos of his return to Italy, and since then, value more the words of people who knew him, rather than the simple labels that are used to describe him in the media or expanded opinions of him based on those labels, and made on blogs."
I know Sparrow, I saw and have indeed added to the discussion myself in the past. But, it's by no means a redundant topic as in most places the situation hasn't changed since that time.
bpcl -
"I think RG spoke the truth to his lawyers about what happened that night."
I agree...I think there are certainly 'truths' in there. I also am in full agreement that between them all there has been an accusatory sub-text dance going on...the latest not so subtle step in the dance being the 'Smiling Team's' arguing the trainer model for the print matches those Rudy had a box for.
Sparrow,
I too have always felt that RS has had a much bigger role than others presume.I always remember damians ire whenever RS was portrayed as the manipulated one. I think RS has probably manipulated his father for years.
Niki,
thank-you so much for the translation of the Porta Porta show.Very interesting.
To all,
This whole bouncing abdar goofy thing is starting to get on my nerves. He jumps from blog to blog as if it's a game... when or if he stops playing, I would repectfully listen. I do understand and respect cmellas's posts,even more because he hasn't been back...if that makes sense???
Sorry for any misspellings.
Michael (UK)
I think you posted an earlier post that said to the effect, RS's team better tread lightly!
I know Sparrow, I saw and have indeed added to the discussion myself in the past. But, it's by no means a redundant topic as in most places the situation hasn't changed since that time.
Michael (UK) | 02.22.08 - 3:45 pm | #
Ah yes, I think I remember. No, it's not redundant, and won't be until the trial is over, if that.
Sparrow and Minotaur,
My Italian to French translation of Minotaur's citation from Il Messagero says that the team of three lawyers for Rudy was appointed by the Ivory Coast Embassy and the Ivorian-Umbra Association. It doesn't say who is paying for his defense. I had thought the Ivorian-Umbra Association could be either some ad hoc organization set up for Rudy's defense or an existing organization whose purpose is to promote exchanges between the Umbria region and Ivory Coast.
I can't vouch for any of this, though.
Minotaur maybe you can help me? I read long ago on Frank's blog some kind words Rudy's basketball coach said about him. I did a google search and couldn't find them. Do you know how to find the original source? Can you either find it, or tell me the best way to do so? The coach's name is Paolo Barbini. Thanks
bpcl -
"I think you posted an earlier post that said to the effect, RS's team better tread lightly!"
I said that quite a long time ago although others have said it again lately...I think it's still the case. Right now everyone 'is' treading lightly...but at some point, either sooner or later, it's going to be every man for him/herself and that's when things will get 'really' interesting. For now, everyone's just marking time...flexing their muscles and looking to see who will move first. RS is the most dangerous since he currently has the most to lose, the weight of the forensics being against him and he can 'really' hurt the others depending which hand he decides to play.