Steve: THANK YOU!!
Yes, thanks. Nice intro too.
Sparrow | 02.15.08 - 6:53 pm |
"Meaning not concluding the same as Mignini? This is getting really messy".
Non conclusive because he is not offering definite answers to questions such as precise time of death,if she did or didn't have sex before being murdered etc.This is what the paper says.
Non conclusive because he is not offering definite answers to questions such as precise time of death,if she did or didn't have sex before being murdered etc.This is what the paper says.
nicki | 02.15.08 - 7:16 pm | #
Yes, thanks Nicki. I wasn't wondering about what the paper said, but what they didn't say. I was trying to read between the lines.
Steve,
Thank you so very much for all of your efforts to help us in our quest to determine what happened to Meredith Kercher.
Sparrow,
I have not read the exact filing of the pathologist Dr. Lalli. From what I did read, it appears to me that Meredith had not been raped. However, I am not of the opinion that she was just going to share herself with anyone other than maybe her new boyfriend. There is no doubt in my mind that Meredith Kercher lost her life because she was not willing to participate in something, because afterall, RG's DNA is in and on her body. And she lost her life and was found semi-naked. Now it can be argued that this was part of the cover up, but still, she lost her life because she did not wish to participate in something, and based on the crime scene evidence, it was about sex. So in reality, although she may not have been physically raped, there still was a definite intent on the part of the people involved.
nicki,
Is this correct (from the article)?:
Miriano (chief prosecutor of Perugia?) said that according to Mignini the decision was warranted, but Miriano declined to go into detail, and neither Maginini nor Lalli wished to comment.
bpcl
I agree
lack of signs of force are no proof of rape not having taken place or sexual force by other means like having the knife at your throat.
Different article: they say Mignini was very irritated by Lalli speaking to the press before submitting the autopsy report. It is also mentioned that Mignini boss is supporting the decision. As to hinting that Lalli has been fired because his conclusions don't support prosecution hypothesis, I am not sure, Mignini is described as a "professional that has always been reluctant to release information during his investigations".
http://notizie.alice.it/notizie/...42.html?
pmk=rss
Thank you Steve. This page loads in a flash! I used to be able to make a cup of tea while the other one loaded 
Mr Huff -
Thank you for once again guesting us a new blog section...I hope this one is even better then the last
However, I am not of the opinion that she was just going to share herself with anyone other than maybe her new boyfriend.---bpcl
I am not of that opinion either. But I firmly believe she was not raped.
Well, they are under strict orders not to release anything to the press. It sounds like the Medical Examiner violated this order. This is what I think has people upset over there.
Goof
soozie UK
aha
me too, I vacuumed, did the washing, took the cat for a walk
As to hinting that Lalli has been fired because his conclusions don't support prosecution hypothesis, I am not sure, Mignini is described as a "professional that has always been reluctant to release information during his investigations".
http://notizie.alice.it/notizie/...izie/
...42.html? pmk=rss
nicki | 02.15.08 - 7:40 pm | #
I wasn't hinting. It was conjecture. I was really asking for the thoughts of others on this possibility. So, thank you.
bpcl -
"However, I am not of the opinion that she was just going to share herself with anyone other than maybe her new boyfriend. There is no doubt in my mind that Meredith Kercher lost her life because she was not willing to participate in something, because afterall, RG's DNA is in and on her body. And she lost her life and was found semi-naked."
It maybe that it was sexual assault heading towards rape...but the rape itself (as in penetration) was never facilitated due to some reason or occurance we are unaware of...;or it may be one of the things already speculated...such as Meredith freaking out causing the assailant/s to change their action.
At the same time...perhaps Guede himself gives us a clue. In his testimony he said full sex with Meredith did not transpire because he didn't have a condom...if this is actually true it's even more important if he doesn't have a condomn...he'd leave DNA evidence of the rape...perhaps he realised this at the time and held off penile penetration. 'If' this is actually the case it would be important...as Guede's lack of having a condom would infer there was no pre-meditation.
Nicki, has anyone else gotten into trouble over leaks in this case? Because it seems there've been a lot of leaks that have nothing to do with Lalli, but I haven't heard of anyone else getting into trouble for it.
Michael (UK)
Nice show of support for Skep. I too had to watch that fan club and chief mousecateer chew on Skep for making an assumption about a wild goose chase. I too have been banned from the site and was powerless to defend, she is somewhat wrong though as the web site still allows me to do the PI cross-word puzzle.
My new beef is that in her back handed aknowlegment that she was wrong she still states that the mix up and witch hunt was worth it if it quiets down her worse critic on the other blog, meaning this one.
Alot of you all should be offended that she has omitted you from having scathing critisim of her site. She should know the general feeling of distast for her fan site over here and stay away. I for one will stay away from the fan club site. It is just too awful to watch that train wreck every day.
You guys crack me up.....you are such good deducting sherlock holmes' types that you couldn't even realize you were chatting with Amanda's Step Father earlier this week!
goofing off!
Michael(UK)
Based on these confluence of events: RG being invited to the cottage by AK without Meredith knowing
(Meredith never said to her friends that she was going to meet with anyone and she left both AK and RS without saying where she was going implies to me that she had no way of knowing anyone would be at the cottage)
(Also, AK was the only one who had a key to the cottage and RG lied when he said he went there with Meredith at 8:38 pm because we know she did not arrive back before 9:00 pm)
The crime scene evidence
(DNA of RS on the Meredith's brassiere
and possible shoe print and AK's DNA on the knife(transferred from RS flat
We do not know if Meredith told either RS or AK when she was coming back that night or not, but both their cell phones turned of simultaneously at around 8:45 to 9:00 pm)
You do not think a case can be made for possible premeditation?
Goofy,
A young woman was brutally murdered, left to die a painful death. At the very least, the people who come here are searching for the truth. They have for the most part, been cordial with anyone who comes here. I have heard the expression, a drowning man will grasp at straws. What is wrong with that I ask?
Nothing wrong with grasping at straws....
goofy
they were talking to someone claiming to be her stepfather who provided information which anyone could google and included a four hour old news story on the medical report as if he predicted it...also the person was far too desperate to be believed...this forum is way too small to be worth the risk of damaging his step-daughters case...and then of course there is his trusty co-worker Akbar....gimme a break. Why would he....you think he is bored?
I'm so glad Goofy's still here. He's really helping Amanda's "father."
why would you not want to believe it?
Amanda's father is Curt.....I don't know him personally.
Goofy,
Tell me, why do you come here if it bothers you so much that people grasp at straws.
Amanda's father is Curt.....I don't know him personally.
goofy | 02.15.08 - 8:21 pm | #
I know who Amanda's real father is. You missed the quotation marks.
Sparrow | 02.15.08 - 7:57 pm |
"Nicki, has anyone else gotten into trouble over leaks in this case?"
Not yet, but more trouble might be coming...The Chief prosecutor was very clear in TV a while ago.
"Nicki, has anyone else gotten into trouble over leaks in this case?"
Not yet, but more trouble might be coming...The Chief prosecutor was very clear in TV a while ago.
nicki | 02.15.08 - 8:22 pm | #
Thanks Nicki. I always appreciate your knowledge and insight, here and elsewhere.
Bcpl, goofy's just having fun. He's playing with us because he has nothing better to do, and he can't operate on our level and win. He has to be sneaky and mocking.
thanks Sparrow
I don't know. Maybe I misremember everything
goofy,
Yeah, right...you win...
Michael and FOP,
Thanks for your words of support and that is all I will say on the matter. "Best leave it," as somebody says in Spinal Tap about the death of drummer Stumpy Joe. I don't know how it's being spun right now and frankly do not give a toss, except I hope the accusation is dropped. It may have been leveled at me to silence all the other meanies who are at war. Anyway, wasn't me.
We're here because we want to understand something and agree that free inquiry, give and take, and self-governance are the best way to get there. There are other paths, but I don't really like them much.
goofy,
Please. What you say is not true. Some people here, most of us in fact, knew precisely who we were interacting with. I'm sorry that he left with a bunch of questions pending and hope he plans to come back. Otherwise, it might look like his reaching out to us was a ploy of some sort, related to the release of the former coroner's report.
Sparrow,
For a moment, yesterday I thought I was dealing with some intelligence, but that statement,
You guys crack me up.....you are such good deducting sherlock holmes' types that you couldn't even realize you were chatting with Amanda's Step Father earlier this week!
made me realize, that nothing could be further from the truth. Thank you
All,
Have you heard the joke about why Mickey Mouse wanted to divorce Minnie?
Because she was xxxxing goofy!
But Skep, Mickey was wrong. Goofy doesn't get any.
"I don't know. Maybe I misremember everything."
Is that your best version of the truth goofy?
My, you are xxxxing goofy!
Sparrow,
Apparently! That's why he's so goofy.
"Hey, goofy.
Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here."
Or start making some sense.
Glad you can see it now bpcl. It was hard watching you get tossed about. But you haven't lost anything. You were just being earnest and nice.
"Apparently! That's why he's so goofy."
I think it's the other way around, actually.
Sparrow,
I thank you. really. Nothing will deter this march for justice for Meredith Kercher and her family.
Someone comes on your blog with says he is CMellas....and then you guys try to pick it apart. He has been reading 3 major blogs for a couple of months now. He probably has even popped off at a few of you during that time. He chose your blog because he thought people here were interested about the case.
I think he just wanted to be able to speak for himself and his family so you guys wouldn't....but no....as you little rascals might have it, you decided to question everything and anything about him and his family and the case while you continued to believe he was an "imposter" for his PR engine....
None of you apparently have any faith.
Yeah, I could just make up the following from his email about posting on your precious blog....but this is what I got back on Feb 12.
From: Chris Mellas
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:02 AM
To: I BLANK OUT MY NAME HERE
Subject: I went and did it
I posted on truecrime haloscan as myself.
Check out the post and let me know what you think.
Think what you want....you all miss an opportunity to have dialog with him but in turn you play your games...good for you...
No such thing as Truecrime Haloscan and he would know that. He is a computer guy. Only people that are not aware that Haloscan is just commenting software and is part of many blogs would think that it would be part of the name of a site. This is the truecrimeweblog.
goofy,
Once again, you have it pretty much all wrong.
Chris Mellas had fruitful exchanges with many people. But we are not a homogenous blob. Some people wondered who he really was, some wondered why he would want to post here, and some wondered whether he should under the circumstances. If he came to convince everyone of something, he failed because we don't all think alike. He's welcome back any time. You're welcome here too, but I for one wonder why you are here. What do you have to offer?
SB,
Why bother! There is nothing there.
Just jumping in randomly here for a moment to note: DAMN, you people are fast. Thanks for moving with such alacrity, everyone.
Please keep it civil.
Goofy, a good number of us believe we were conversing with CMellas. A few people didn't believe it, and some reserved the right to remain skeptical, which is not a bad thing.
Personally I believed he was who he said he was. And in view of that belief, let me reiterate with different quotation marks, I'm really glad you're here. You're really "helping" CMellas. If I were him, I wouldn't buy you a coffee, and I'd do more than just hit you on the head.
Sorry if I offended, Steve.
No one person offended, Sparrow. You all generally keep it close to civil here, but I did want to make it a point to throw that reminder out there, since it is very easy to be contentious in a discussion like this.
"Guede" in voudou (a religion born of African and French cultures) refers to the spirits of the dead/fertility who rule death, cemeteries and the grave, in particular Baron Samedi, his wife Mama Brigitte, and their children Nibo, Ti Malis, and Plumaj. Guede are frequently represented by phallic symbols and noted for disruption, obscenity, debauchery, and having a particular fondness for tobacco and rum
I think goofy is cmellas alter-ego
Steve,
We love you!!!!!!! That is why we are fast!
Chris I think came here because you have to understand for 3 months now he has heard nothing but negative/mis-information about his daughter, family and anyone else the press was able to get their hands on. They have been cruel to say the least.
So why not defend his family and even his daughter. He has not received or seen anything that would even at the slightest make him think that his daughter has committed this hanous crime or was involved. Again, you know he has information about the case that only the defense and prosecution may have knowledge of....so please, give him the benefit of the doubt...if you can.....or not...up to you.
Even if he can't get into the details of the crime and investigative information, he still is an excellent resource. He could at least explain to you what is reported incorrectly or correctly.
The timing of the medical reports made it look bad I suppose but those were not due until April so he had no idea that they were going to be released so soon. For goodness sake, they have moved pretty slow and dilerberate with their investigation so why would it all of a sudden change...he was surprised at the early release (I think Mignini was too).
Look, believe what you want. Most have already made up their minds and maybe that is why he has not come back.
Again, as it has been stated....there are details about the case that can't be exposed to the media in any form...including here....I guess because he is such a nice guy he just felt compelled to say something. Maybe he got some things off his chest at your expense.....who knows. I only hope that when many of you learn what many of us already know, you will be kind enough to return to him and give him your kind regards.
I hear it coming....what about......go ahead...I will fill it in later...
I'll wait for Godot. Thanks though.
My God Anonymous.....haolscan.com/comments/trucimeweblog/
3206507372815935682/?a=
You are so fricking picky .... you got the jist of the email quote...you knew what he was talking about...
Oh, my reply to him was...
What is Haloscan?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Mellas
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:02 AM
To: HID MY NAME
Subject: I went and did it
I posted on truecrime haloscan as myself.
Check out the post and let me know what you think.
-Chris Mellas
Then I replied to him...
Wow....people there were so civil towards you....
I think your post brought back some of the humanity that has been lacking.
I think maybe I was wrong..
Look, believe what you want. Most have already made up their minds and maybe that is why he has not come back.---Goofy
Why do you continue to totally ignore the fact that many here believe he was who he said he was, and that several did have fruitful exchanges with him? It is evident if you read what was written, and several people have mentioned it directly to you.
Certainly there were some who were contentious, and/or unbelieving, but that's what we all get when we are operating on the internet, and in this case the issue is very important no matter what side you are on. And speaking of sides, this discussion group is made up of many people with many different opinions of what may have happened. Why do you continue to speak as if we are one entity with one opinion? CMellas was and is VERY welcome here. But as I wrote in another post, it must be a very difficult thing for him to do. It's possible that the friendly people here could not make up for the others. But the others have a right to speak, and although most welcome any words we can get from CMellas, we have to each decide for ourselves how we accept or don't accept them. He has an obvious angle of interest in this case. We should not be expected to forget that.
Sparrow,
I concur.....
Wow....people there were so civil towards you....
I think your post brought back some of the humanity that has been lacking.
I think maybe I was wrong..
goofy | 02.15.08 - 9:14 pm |
No you weren't wrong.
You got some hostility yourself because you were disresectful and mocking.
He was not. This is a much more civil place than any I have seen that discusses this subject.
I think the point that becomes at issue for us Sparrow is that when we make a comment in defense of Amanda or Rafael, we get lashed out and then it doesn't stop there...people then continue to lash out at us personally (us meaning anyone who might have a valid point). I read John T try to lecture Chris about his family and all that age crap. Who is John T to make such remarks about someone who doesn't know Chris? Chris can defend himself yes....but then I sit here and watch how quiet people are when they know what is said is out of line....so maybe that is why I am here myself....to just be part of the "game" so to speak.....
Giuliano Mignini, the chief investigator, has re-interviewed British friends of Ms Kercher who, like her, were on an Erasmus EU exchange programme in Italy and who have returned since the crime to complete their studies. Reports said that they had confirmed their earlier testimony, in which they said that Ms Knox appeared "proud" to have discovered Ms Kercher's body and had given details of the crime scene that only someone who had either witnessed the crime or committed it could possibly have known.
John T _
"About wounds.
I never knew, but I heard a few years back how people don't realize that it takes a lot of force to remove a knife from a wound. Then I stood on a nail that was stuck in a plank, and it cost me all of my strength to pull it back out and I realized that about the difficulty in removing a knife that I'd heard about and I knew it was true.
I imagine, then, sometimes removing a weapon/knife is harder than getting it stuck in."
John...indeed...I wrote a short basic introductional lesson on the dynamics of 'knives' for those who may be unaware of the basic principles of the dynamics involved when they are used against a living human/animal body. For many, their understanding of knives comes from using chefs/kitchen knives on meat.
However, a mistake would be to apply those principles to a living body where circulating body fluids are in place with the heart still pumping and blood pressure even close to normal...added factors are bone structures such as the ribs or spine which can cause a blade to become lodged, as well as 'living' sinue and muscle which is designed to close round a wound (as well as whatever maybe inside it).
However...the real problem is presented by the circulating body fluids (i.e.blood) and the internal pressure of the living body (i.e. blood pressure). For a foreign body being inserted inside by force not via a natural orifice (i.e. a stab) forces of suction work on that body..l.the larger the foreign body...the greater the suction force.
Take a hyperdermic needle...this is a small body...at least in girth...however the forces exerted on that are greater then you perhaps imaging. Normally, needles are put into internal bodily tunnels (veins) or they are inserted sub cut so the forces exerted on them by the body is not that great...however, take a hyperdermic that has a long needle and hyperthetically stab someone in the stomach hilt deep with it...on pulling to withdraw you'll be surprised to find it feels 'stuck'...you'd actually have to make a fist good and firm around the syringe and give a real hard yank to get it out. Magnify this 'many' times for a knife...even more the bigger the knife.
In war the bayonet is still used by many armies, as well as the British army. In the rules of war it is perfectly acceptable to use them. However, it is against the Geneva Convention to whilst having thrust your bayonet into an enemy to pull the trigger and fire into them. Why were soldiers doing this in the first place so commonly as to require a law being made against it? It was not to inflict further damage on the enemy as many may think, which in any case goes against one of the main purposes of a bayonet which is to save you ammo in close combat...as well aa save the need to shoot into an enemy in close combat where the round may pass straight through him and into one of your own pals to his rear. In any case, trust me when I say that when someone has a belly full of bayonet many things are going through their mind but attcking you or anyone else is not one of them...they are out of action. In nearly all cases a bullet was fired into them to enlarge the hole to help break the suction forces so the bayonet6 could be withdrawn easier. You may notice watching the old films...big beefy soldiers holdiing a long thick rifle for good grip are still not strong enough to simply yank it out...they actully have to raise their foot and plant it on the enemy giving a vicious kick forward as well as yanking back with might...these are the forces involved.
In military and hunting knives certain features are usually inbuilt in the design. For example, close to the hilt a two or three inch portion of the blade is 'toothed' and are wider then the blade portion of the knife/bayonet...but these are not sharp, rather...they exist to 'grind' a groove (rather then saw) in the ribs say...to prevent the sharp blade portion getting stuck in the bone on withdrawl. Most importantly are the 'blood grooves' the side portions of the knife. These allow the blood to run out along these grooves so breaking part of the suction and making withdrawl easier. Finally, these knives tend to have very robust in girth handles so you can get your fist right round it...combined with grip ridges of some kind on the handle...you need a firm purcahse to be able to exert the necessary force to with draw it.
Now take a kitchen knife existing for the purpose of cutting 'dead' meat. It's different in every fundemental way. Knives that are blades do not have a serated portion, they have no blood grooves, they are very smooth and shinyalong each side (no contouration in shape...increasing suction hold)...the handles are very thin in girth and smooth...very bad if it's hilt deep in something with suction forces and you need to grip to pullo it out (add the possibility of that handle also being slippery with blood)...well, if an impliment similar to this was used on Meredith and not something made for the purpose, the latter being unlikely, I can tell you several things.
The murder weapon was inserted hilt deep, or close to. Whoever thrust it in would have had a hard job getting it out. We know they did since at some point the victim bled freely. But a question one has to ask is how long before this was done. Not only would it have been very difficult...but it would have been a horrble job. I suspect they may have waited a while before bolstering themselves for a second attempt. Until this point, whilst the victim would have been bleeding...it would have not been profuse. The blade would have operated much like a cork...once removed the victim had bare minutes to live...even less if thrashing around or fighting for breath, panic/high stress...this would have raised the heartrate increasing further the flow of blood out of the wound.
I also don't believe the knife was merely yanked out. Force would have had to have been applied the other way..i.e' gripping the face or neck and pushing it away or bracing it in place. This may have been the course for some of the bruising on then neck/face area and even the broken bone. Finally, I don't think this was the end of it...I am willing to 'bet' that the blade was rocked back and forth to enlarge the wound to enable it's withdrawl.
If I'm correct, this would answer certain questions...such as the apparent difficulty in being able to give a precise estimation of the shape and length of the knife that dealt the fatal wound...enlarging and tearing the inside of the wound by rocking would have enlarged the wound and effected its shape increasing the possible range of knife size. In regard to length, they at least know that the knife was at least a certain size as it passed through the neck...but not how long the portion protuding from the other side was or whether the knife went in hilt deep, or if not how close to the hilt. This is a major problem...it means at best due to a knife's shape or length they may be able to rule it out, but many potential candidates can be ruled in as 'possibles'.
goofy,
Let me try one more time. I took the time to prepare a list of questions to which Chris could answer yes, no or case related. I posted that yesterday, or was it the day before, and have seen no reply whatsoever.
These were mainly clarifications of what has been reported in the press. If you are Chris' colleague or a friend, please invite him back to answer those and other questions.
Again, this is not a homogenous blob but a buzzing laboratory of thought, opinion, agreement, disagreement. Many of us expressed compassion for what Chris Mellas the individual must be going through. There was one incredibly hostile voice, John T, but he has the right to speak and was not completely off base. I personally would have preferred that he skip the "information" from the dreadful article that showed pictures of the family home, referred to Chris as a toy boy and spouted a bunch of dime-store psychology. The article was crap.
Most of us here don't read that crap. And we're interested in finding out what happened and seeing justice done for Meredith. But we aren't a bunch of patsies who are going to refrain from asking the hard questions.
When Doug Preston posted here the other day, he addressed his post to all those who think Amanda Knox is guilty and ended it with a reference to the anti-Knox camp. There are probably a couple of people who fall into those categories here, but they certainly doesn't describe most of us. I think many people have tried to explain that. We are individuals; we deal with one another as individuals, and anyone is free to chime in.
Speaking for myself only, I would like to say that when you step in and deliberately misrepresent the views here like some kid in a schoolyard who just wants to pick a fight and has no concern for accuracy or even reading what is being said, well frankly that bores me stiff.
Goofy, your other name starts with an 'A' right? I forgot the spelling. This is a place where, thankfully, for the most part, we've been able to stay on topic. I'm kind of straying from that now, but I hope it's for a good cause. Part of the reason we're able to do that is because we keep it civil for the most part, and we don't react and get lured out too often. I think that most people here are really serious about learning the facts and finding out the truth. Most of us are open-minded and flexible. I know I've changed my mind several times about what I think happened as new evidence has been revealed, and changed my mind about some of the suspects as more information has become available. It's true that as in any other case people's opinions are colored by their own experience. It would be helpful if you and CMellas would understand that, and let it roll of your back if some people use overly judgemental words in describing Amanda. But this happens in regards to all the suspects. Again these are individuals who have a right to speak.
As far as John T is concerned, he is one guy. And there are no thought police here to step in and correct anyone (aside from Steve who has the right to delete posts- thank God he uses such good judgement).
Personally, if someone here comes in and says something I think is out of line, I think the target can take care of it himself. And I think CMellas did a good job of it. Ignoring them is a good tactic. If someone is out of line with me, I know how I would handle it, and I wouldn't expect others to come in and chastise the guy. That would lead to a total distraction from our topic.
Again, here, for the most part people are REALLY interested in the truth of this case. That's why your posts stood out so much as goofy, and even U-Bob, if that was you. Y'all weren't serious about it all. Looked like you were just goofing off.
Fair enough Sparrow!
"Certainly there were some who were contentious, and/or unbelieving, but that's what we all get when we are operating on the internet, and in this case the issue is very important no matter what side you are on."
For myself, I am on nobody's 'side'...neither am I 'anti' anyone. My current position is as a result of where the evidence and path of logic, plus maybe a small degree of intuition has taken me, not by 'belief' or 'wish'. My view is open to change since we do not as of yet have all the evidence and some we do have needs further verification/clarification/ruling in/out. Therefore, I don't choose' my position, it's chosen for me by what's 'there'. I therefore wish everyone wouuld stop trying to pigeon hole everyone into either an 'Anti-Knox' or 'Pro-Knox' camp. The 'Anti' tag is emotive as it implies a 'hatred' of Amanda. I believe her at present to be guilty of some degree of wrong doing but I don't hate her or anybody else. I 'want' to view her as innocent...but I have to have the evidence to take me there first. Otherwise, it's blind faith or a 'wish' or some political/racial/social issue, or some other issue one may imagine that's not actually really important to this case but something 'else', but certainly not about truth or what's right. Therefore, I wish everyone would relax with the 'us' and 'them' crap on 'all' the blogs. Whilst there are those, clearly, that will never change their view no matter what evidence comes to light...most belong to the 'Will honestly consider all new evidence as it comes to light and change my view accordingly if the evidence merits it' camp, as do I.
This point whilst quoting you Sparrow was not at you, rather I found its use expedient to make a general point to 'them'...them being anyone that tries to cause division by labelling 'everyone' as being in black or white camps and in the process detracting from the proper purpose of this debate...who killed Meredith and why.
SB, Sparrow,
Have nice weekends won't you!
so maybe that is why I am here myself....to just be part of the "game" so to speak.....
goofy | 02.15.08 - 9:29 pm | #
I think I can confidently say it's not a game for any of the regulars or semi-regulars here. It obviously is on other blogs.
I don't know how you can be a friend to CMellas and consider this a game. Again, he should do more than hit you on the head.
SB, Sparrow,
Have nice weekends won't you!
bpcl | 02.15.08 - 10:17 pm | #
You too!
Fair enough Sparrow!
goofy | 02.15.08 - 10:14 pm |
Thanks goofy. I hope CMellas comes back if he can. But I understand if he can't. Please consider seriously my post at 10:19. It's not hostile, just honest. You owe him an apology.
Now see Sparrow,
You try to read too much into my comment. I did put quotes around the word.
So please, here we go.....don't try to compare my friendship based on a quoted word. You are getting personal and not understanding what I am saying. It would be better if you just asked me what I mean by "game" instead of making acusations.
Would "part of this community" suffice?
geeeeeeeez
Skep,
OT a bit off topic..
I thought I read on another blog that you thought that the Italian Woman (Candace) was masquerading as CMellas. I'm confused because you posted this on the PI site last night
Do you really believe that?
Just curious....
You try to read too much into my comment. I did put quotes around the word.
So please, here we go.....don't try to compare my friendship based on a quoted word. You are getting personal and not understanding what I am saying. It would be better if you just asked me what I mean by "game" instead of making acusations.
Would "part of this community" suffice?
geeeeeeeez
goofy | 02.15.08 - 10:24 pm | #
I don't know what you mean by "comparing." If you meant "basing" as in "don't base my friendship on a quoted word," I wasn't doing that.
Yeah, you put quotations around the word, but I'm telling you, it's not a game her for anyone else. And you were playing around before. If my daughter were in jail, on suspicion of murder or associated crimes, I would not want my friend doing that.
No one else here is doing that, and we have no relative in jail in this case. I'm not getting personal at all with you, I'm just having an honest conversation with you.
I would like you to be a part of this community (which is not a game), but you have to realize we are going to talk about what we believe are the facts, all of them. It might be harder for you to look at some of them honestly because of your friend, but we can't hold back because of it.
And if you goof around with the facts or people here, you're not going to be taken seriously at all. I'm not hostile to you at all goofy. I wish you'd change back to your other name though.
goofy,
I made that comment ironically because it seems I was momentarily mistaken for another poster who did a very bad thing. Don't worry about it. It's all over. That whole misunderstanding has been cleared up between Candace and me. Candace is not Chris Mellas, and I never really thought that.
Thanks for asking, though.
Can I make a general comment? There was a stupid misunderstanding with the person who runs the PI blog, but it has been resolved. Candace runs her blog differently and she has a different viewpoint, but I hope people will give Candace a break and just get on with the topic at hand here. Even if you've violently disagreed with her, and even if she has kicked you off her blog, it's her blog and her right. Remember long ago, last weekend, Robert M asked that in general we leave that one alone? I hope everyone will.
Goodnight.
In regard to the truthfulness of Amanda Knox, as it has been raised again lately.
One thing that causes me concern regarding the question of the 'truthful nature' of Amanda is her 'apparently' turning to religion in prison and in the course of doing so asking the prison priest what the 'ressurection' is (music to any priest's ears). Now, I'm no Catholic...I've never been to a Catholic school (although as a kid I was in a Catholic cub scout pack and later moved up to the Catholic sea scout pack. However, I have made it my buisness to educate myself about the Catholic Church since it has had such an important impact on social/political/economic/military/spiritual/legal issues to name but a few, for the last two millenia
The ressurection is the most important event in the Bible and most important calender date in the Catholic Church, if not the whole of Christianity. I also know that in Catholic schools, especially private ones, the Catholic religion is central on the curriculum. Amanda has also, I presume been raised a Catholic. It therefore is inconceivable to me that Amanda could be anything less less then very familiar with it. Amanda has been described by some as naive...even if true that does not equate to being stupid...especially as her academic record indicates she's very bright and her friends have said as much. I therefore do not find this request being made to the priest coming from an 'honest' place...for an 'honest' purpose. Indeed, there is something that appears distinctly calculating about it.
Therefore, since it's not case related, I was hoping Mr Mellas...you may help us clear this up? Do you not feel a little annoyed in spending all that money on a private Catholic schooling for Amanda that she doesn't even know about the resurrection? Were you aware that she did not know about it? Can you explain how she would 'not' know about it?
Mr Mellas...perhaps you could also tell us....how good was Amanda's Italian?
Third question for Mr Mellas. You state that Amanda's story has remained consistant from the beginning...As I recall, at the beginning Amanda claimed to remember very little about the day/night in question due to cannabis/alcohol inflicted 'amnesia'. Has that 'memory loss' remained consistant too or has she regained it? If the memory loss existed/exists how can any 'alibi' given in, and sustained, during that time carry any weight if Amanda is suffering from memory loss either full or substantial? Has Amanda suffered any similar memory loss for any other days or only the day, or more specifically the 'evening, in question?
Mr Mellas, if it's not too personal to ask, does Amanda either currently or during the past few months take/been taking any prescribed medication for either any acute or a chronic medical complaints?
One final question Mr Mellas. Can you explain that since she was there at the time the postal police arrived and was with Amanda and RS, why Filomena did not see Meredith's body? Does Amanda still maintain that she 'did' see Meredith's body at this time?
I thank you for any answers you can give.
Michael,
amanda isn't Catholic. She went to a Catholic high school because it's very strong academically.
I'm just curious, since I've read every single post since day one, where were the links that stated Meredith was so moral? You all speak of her like she was and I'm wondering if that's really true. No disrespect to her, but everyone's trying to piece this puzzle together with facts and Amanda's personality as well as Guedes and Raffaeles have been picked apart in the worst way possible.
anotheranon | 02.16.08 - 12:38 am asks about morality.
Morality in terms of a murder victim is completely different than morality in terms of murder suspects.
For the victim, "morality" issues are tied to the number of people on the suspect list. If the list is short you then qualify for high morality marks, as with Meredith. Lower marks for Amanda because the list she provided (before she was a suspect) was much longer and that's all "morality" has to do with anything, in my mind.
For living suspects, however, "morality" is tied to inclination, capability, intent, and motive and investigators often have to ask tough morality-based questions using a fine pick just to get to the bottom of things. Just my view.
AnotherAnon?
Skep, where are you? For I must say, this one has 'roused my snakish temper".
I mistakenly gave you caps, but now I give you what you deserve...
was Meredith Kercher so moral? I could NOT care less. She was murdered. In her home, in her room, and it sure seems like by people who were known to her. No disrespect? Amanda, maybe. Meredith, No.
Hark? What's this? A new defense tactic? Blame the victim? "if only she didn't struggle, she'd be alive today?" - Dream on, Alice/Amanda. You'll get to Wonderland."
Goose
Fly by Night
Yet again cooler heads prevail. You said it much better than I could/would/SHOULD have. Victims of assault are ~used~ to having to explain why *they* asked for it. Another Anon? I ask only that you come up with another alias so I can be sure to skim over you. You make me ashamed that we are the same species.
Melissa (Goose?),
I hope I didn't let you down. I was out for the evening. My first reaction to another anon's posting is something like pure shock. "Links" to the victim's morality?! I don't quite know what to say.
The victim's morality does not come into play here; it simply doesn't. That should be obvious.
Goose,
Thanks for your support.
Nicki:
“The paper doesn't say what happened to the cat..
.__http://www.corriere.it/cronache/ ...ra_uccisa.shtmâ€
Many thanks for this article. It dates from 6th November (the day AK RS and PL were put in custody) and the gist is that as early as 4th November the forensic evidence allowed the police to conclude that the downstairs flat was not involved because the traces of blood found there were from the cat.
That means that the traces were minimal -- no smearing of walls etc downstairs as has often been said on this blog -- and that the police were incredibly thorough in sweeping the whole site (which is obvious, but many seek to question that). The blood apparently did come from the cat
’s injured ear. I wonder where the poor creature is, and whether someone is feeding it. In any case none of the protagonists seems to have gone downstairs at all.
Michael (UK):
“Can you explain ... why Filomena did not see Meredith's body?â€
See Nicki
’s reply to my question on the previous blog. We do not know when Filomena arrived; and we do not know whether or not she saw the body.
It is time to review the ‘hard’ evidence as far as we know it, which is partially.
Skep,
The truth isn't always popular. I just couldn't have you taking the heat for me, but, then, I'm honest.
xo
(for what it is worth, xin is my favorite poster, SB a close second)
Regarding Goofy and his/her reflections on Chris M's appearance here, I wouldn't put too much into his/her representativity of Chris M. Abdar for me is much closer. He and Chris M have referred to each other in their comments. And Adbar's last one was this:
Abdar | 02.14.08 - 3:51 pm | "ChrisM is busy today and tomorrow. If he has time to visit you will be lucky .... Be patient. Much has happened (in a good way) in regards to the case and I am sure he needs time to work through recent events."
Chris M is virtual-world savvy enough to know that any blog is a smorgasbord, and that he can pick and choose between the greasy and low-fat, hydrocarb or protein, fish, poultry and meat. He doesn't need Goofy to arrange which plates are on the table.
Oh, must someone have huge respect for a person, as if they are some kind of film star, because his step-daughter is maybe a murderer?
Maybe a murderer, definitely a liar involved in a murder case.
I don't believe Mellas was here to discuss, why would he do that? It would/could be potentially damaging. It means he had a predetermined agenda, to alter people's opinions about Amanda.
But, in fact, I found him to be aggressive.
Telling me to keep out of his way then
and all that
So I wonder if this aggression is how he taught Amanda to deal with life?
Skep, I haven't looked at the other place for a day, and it seemed I missed something, and whatever I missed is all deleted anyway.
But since everyone is offering you their support, you've got mine too. (Even if it arrives late!)
Michael
What I meant was, you said the lack of repeated stabbing, shows there was not rage, but the job of getting the knife out, after that fatal blow, I would say would have stopped repeated stabs. And the extent, that fatale blow went to, could have made whoever did that to Meredith realize it was enough.
I see violence like this as a reflection of what is going on communally as a world society/force, in the pathetic attempts at a successful civilization, where world leaders are hypocrites blab blab blabbing about God and religion and Jesus using that as an excuse to do bad things where they are themselves unable to reflect what Jesus stood for, mercy, forgiveness and real love, where he said turn the other cheek and love your enemies. Instead they the leaders show that if you cannot get your way use violence. Is it any wonder that down at street level, even kids are now using violence more than ever before? Look at Britain, especially London and all opf the killings by kids of 15, to oyther kids of 15, 13, 11, one kid shot to death as he slept in his own bed.
Those kids all as they've seen in their short lioves are self-obsessed egomaniacs like Blair, and Bush, who stand behind violence instead of using intelligence and appeasement.
I see those people as indirectly guilty of the violence we are seeing.
People are born then become slaves to money then die.
It's no wonder that a ttrue balance is missing and people like in this case, go insane.
It is not getting better.
Good morning all.
Skep my support and respect too as always with the rather clever and intelligent people that grace this blog, I am honored to be able to read and assess your views... and the goal as always is to determine facts and the guilty ones.
I also am banned from 'that' site... and have now stopped even monitoring was is going on there as it is totally irrelevant to the case.
One bit that caught my eye was the posting of ANON questioning Meredith's morality, well responded Goose... it remind me though of a number of posts of that 'woman' also raising questions about Meredith and also her quotes about her being hung over and partied out...
Brian - Thanks for the pictures, they are very insightful, that looks like a mark as if someone had grabbed her, I play rugby and have had bruises like that on arms where finger was dug in, squeezing. Also the two of them do look like they have only just got out of bed not like they have had showers, roomed hair etc, were they from the day after the murder?
Steve thanks for starting the new blog and I concur super fast
Goofy - I think you are on the wrng blog, there is one on Settle PI perfect for you.
Have a good weekend everyone
John T - I liked the response about having to bleach the boxer shorts ... and of course 'commando'... made me chuckle :o))
I think the only option for Chris M and the Amanda defense team is to revert to the amnesia bit if he is saying that are going back to her original alibi....
Only problem was she has stated in between amnesia attacks:
1) watching a film
2) reading a book
3) having a shower
4) making love
5) with RS
Only problem with this is that RS did not suffer from amnesia and was:
1) Watching a film
2) surfing the net
3) not reading a book
4) he was on his own
3) ALONE
Also if the memory loss storyline used did will this apply to the morning also.
1) did she use bleach to clean RS apartment after the apparent flood? - This was her excuse for taking most of the cleaning materials out of the cottage. I would be interested to know when these were removed by AK as no mention has been made about this.
2) did she go back to her flat and shower before discovering it was a major crime scene . I understand that she left RS at 10.30 and did not alert him until 11.30, what did she do in that hour. She said she found the place with the door open!
3) Did she put on the washing machine, timewise and incrimination wise I think her response will be no
4) did she or RS phone anyone before postal police hit the scene?
One final thought...
RS alibi out of the 3 is the strongest by far... also his role in the crime I think was probably the lowest (in direct involvement in the murder) compared to the the other 2 suspects that are being held at present.
If this is so I think if I was he I would feel the happiest (not the wright word I know) as AK if she was involved cannot implicate him if his only role was in cleaning up her mess.
Likewise AK cannot implicate Guede, as if she was the enabler of the event then she knows that if Guede tells how the whole thing happended (he has already hinted at it...) then she is doomed.
I think AK is stuck in the middle, she knows to the left is Guede who probably dealt the fatal blow... on her right RS who helped clean up afterwards and offer her part of the alibi.
And.... you have RS who by saying she Amanda was not be between 9 and 1am covering his ar*e as they say...... He knows that he did not deliver the fatal blow, he also knows the events did not take place due to him...
If he as he...
1) I will tell the truth now and suffer the consequences
2) Or stay quiet and stick to my story and hope the dna and footprint and pc evidence evaporates just like the shoe print did!
I hope this makes sense??
If I was him....
1) I would tell the truth now and suffer the consequences regarding my actions
2) Or stay quiet and stick to my story and hope the DNA and footprint and pc evidence evaporates just like the shoe print did!
As none of them have been charged yet...
If indeed RS was only involved in covering for AK and Guede what type of prison sentence would he get for perverting the course of justice and interfering with the murder crime scene?
Sorry if this was covered before but I cannot remember it being discussed only that for murder and not helping someone that is wounder (which may still apply to RS)
Thanks
Raffaele has graduated:
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/
artic...z=HOME_INITALIA
Headline: Meredith: Sollecito has graduated in computer science
PERUGIA (16 February) - Raffaele Sollecito has graduated in computer science in prison in Perugia where he is being held for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The discussion of his dissertation lasted about twenty minutes. The topic of his thesis in computer science was Genetic Programming. The only family member present was his father, who after the ceremony remained to talk with his son. "It went well", said defence lawyers Marco Brusco and Luca Mauri. "Raffaele was very nervous, but also satisfied. The first step is over." The mark [??? – "voto di laurea"] was 99 over 110.
It seems to me that there are three ways of looking at this crime, (or four, if you count the "it's all Mignini's fault, in fact he probably did it himself" point of view).
1. Some people think all three of the suspects are implicated in some way in the murder. This might be the case, but it still needs to substantiated with more forensic evidence against Knox and Sollecito. At this stage, it's hard to see how those two could have been actively involved in a bloody knifing without leaving more substantial evidence of their presence in the room where the murder took place.
2. Another possibility is that Guede acted alone, and that the general paucity of forensic evidence against Knox and Sollecito results from the fact that they weren't there and simply didn't do it. This might be the case also, but the problem with this argument is the bizarre set of stories that Knox and Sollecito have told, that have at various times included attempts to blame Patrick Lumumba and/or each other.
There is also Sollecito's diary claim that Rudy Guede is the "real murderer" but that he's worried about what stories this real murderer might tell that might make Sollecito's own position less secure. What stories could he tell about someone he'd never met?
The case for Knox's and Sollecito's innocence still depends on their providing a satisfactory answer to the question, "Where exactly were you that night?"
3. There's a third group of ignorant people like myself who haven't got much of a clue about what happened at all.
Trying to poke around in my ignorant way for a bit of a clue, I asked Chris Mellas a few days ago whether Rudy Guede had been to the girls' house before the night of November 1st.
Chris's reply, in full, was: "Finn,
I can't go there. Sorry."
I found that very interesting, because Chris had been happy to confirm that Amanda had never spoken to Rudy on the phone, and he even said he would be prepared to upload her phone records (suitably modified, for understandable reasons) to back this up. He'd be happy to do all this because, he said, the phone records aren't part of the case.
On the other hand, we've also had reports from witnesses claiming that they had seen Guede at or around the house on at least two previous occasions - and that Guede was particularly interested in the two English-speaking girls.
What I understand from all this - perhaps mistakenly - is that Amanda Knox's step-dad has confirmed that Guede's presence in the house prior to the murder is considered (by Knox's family, at least) to be a significant part of the case.
I notice also that when Amanda listed to the police all the men she'd invited into the house in the few weeks she'd lived there, she never mentioned Rudy Guede. In fact I haven't heard her mention him at all, even though she has considered in writing the possibilities that either Patrick Lumumba or Raffaele Sollecito ("he had blood on his hand but I thought it came from the fish") might be the killer.
This still leaves me in the "don't know" camp, I'm afraid. I don't know whether Meredith Kercher invited Rudy Guede to the house, or perhaps one of the other two housemates invited him instead, or if he just invited himself. I don't know if Amanda Knox invited him, but clean forgot about doing so.
But the one thing I'm pretty sure about, because Chris Mellas himself confirmed it, is that Rudy Guede's previous visit to the house is considered a significant part of the case.
FinnMacCool | 02.16.08 - 8:10 am |"I notice also that when Amanda listed to the police all the men she'd invited into the house in the few weeks she'd lived there, she never mentioned Rudy Guede."
Good posting Finn, as usual.
If I may, let me add that while Amanda hasn't explicitly named Guede since the Giallo, she has described him, without assigning a name:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...=null&
offset=12
"In her statement, on which she wrote "All the police must read this", Ms Knox listed "all the men" who "knew Meredith": Mr Lumumba, a Swiss man called Peter, a North African called Ardak, an Algerian called Yuve who worked at Mr Lumumba
’s bar, a Greek named Spyros and a Moroccan that she knew as "Shaky" and who worked in a pizzeria. Witnesses have said, however, that these were friends of Ms Knox, not Ms Kercher. She also described Rudy Hermann Guede, the fourth suspect, who was arrested in Germany this week and is awaiting extradition to Italy, but did not name him, even though she is said to know him well. "
Observer -
"amanda isn't Catholic. She went to a Catholic high school because it's very strong academically."
Thank you for correcting me on this. For my part I made this mistake because here in the UK it is a requirement for Catholic school that the child be Catholic...as well as both parents. You actually have parents here converting to the Catholic faith simply to get their child into the school...but first they are actually tested....have to go to Catholic church every week for a year, they're that strict. Some after this are still refused. I assumed the Catholic Church was uniform in its rules across borders (they aren't known for flexibility), at least in the basic premise the child actually be 'Catholic' to attend their schools.
John T -
"What I meant was, you said the lack of repeated stabbing, shows there was not rage, but the job of getting the knife out, after that fatal blow, I would say would have stopped repeated stabs. And the extent, that fatale blow went to, could have made whoever did that to Meredith realize it was enough."
It's a very good point you make. At the end of the day one has to assess whether someone so full of rage to pass a knife right through someones neck on finding they can't pull it out...would cause all that rage to just 'vanish'. Most men regard their fists and other body parts as weapons....if he 'was' deprived of the knife he was not deprived of 'weapons' (even use a chair or lamp if needed). Meredith would have been in no position to defend herself. If deprived of his knife, would he also be deprived of his rage?
Yesterday SoozieUK and LoveWolf were going over the bugged prison conversation between Amanda and her parents. I wanted to get some more on that, and try to confirm if Amanda's father told her to shush up. Well, I was sort of incorrect on that point.
We have to be careful even of the "serious" newspapers, at least the English language ones, as the reporters piecemeal information together, and I'm sure they deal with different stories and can't dedicate time to become experts in any one news item.
From the Times, there are two articles from two different days which cover the bugged conversation. I've stitched them together (careful with my suppositions on exactly where the stitching occurs). This doesn't really change anything, but enhances a little the original Times report.
The first quote is from the extensive Sunday Times article from 13 January 2008, which I'll quote in normal letter:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3159584.ece
The second article is a normal Times news article from 2 December 2007, which I'll quote in italics (if I can figure out italics)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/
europe/article2983881.ece
" On November 17, in a conversation that was bugged by police, Knox talks to her parents at the prison.
According to the 11-page transcript, Knox said the previous day was “bad†— the television news called her a liar.
“Yesterday was a bad day. The TV news called me a liar. But I didn’t do anything,†she tells them.
Knox’s mother tries to reassure her.
“They’re trying to frighten you into saying something,†her mother says.
Knox replies: “It’s stupid; I can’t say anything else. I was there and I can’t lie about this.â€
Her father advises Knox not to talk to anyone.
Her lawyers, however, said she was referring to Sollecito’s flat.
Knox protests that other prisoners stare at her as if she was “a horrible beingâ€. She adds: “My cell is cold and I’ve got a headache. I feel better only during my walk. I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good.†[this last paragraph repeated exactly from the December 2 article]
When Knox
’s mother tells her that Sollecito’s lawyers are saying “nasty things†about her, Knox immediately changes the subject. “Mom, as soon as I get out of here, after the court hearing, let’s go shopping,†she says.
Kermit | 02.16.08 - 11:07 am | I'm on a learning curve with the strange codes here. I've tried to clean up my prior posting ref the amalgamated bugged conversation:
" On November 17, in a conversation that was bugged by police, Knox talks to her parents at the prison.
According to the 11-page transcript, Knox said the previous day was "bad" - the television news called her a liar.
"Yesterday was a bad day. The TV news called me a liar. But I didn't do anything," she tells them.
Knox's mother tries to reassure her.
"They're trying to frighten you into saying something," her mother says.
Knox replies: "It's stupid; I can't say anything else. I was there and I can't lie about this."Â
Her father advises Knox not to talk to anyone.
Her lawyers, however, said she was referring to Sollecito's flat.
Knox protests that other prisoners stare at her as if she was "a horrible being". She adds: "My cell is cold and I've got a headache. I feel better only during my walk. I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good." [this last paragraph repeated exactly from the December 2 article]
When Knox's mother tells her that Sollecito's lawyers are saying "nasty things" about her, Knox immediately changes the subject. "Mom, as soon as I get out of here, after the court hearing, let's go shopping," she says.
-
Chris M have referred to each other in their comments...
This is not correct. The commentor signing cmellas never mentions an Abnar...not that it makes a whole lot of difference since I don't a family member would comment here anywhere.
Anonymous | 02.16.08 - 11:23 am |
Here we go again:
"My coworker that showed up here was offering up unsolicited support which was very nice of him, though I may smack him for it anyways since I am now having to deal with questions he raised, it was thoughtful of him so perhaps I will buy him a coffee after the smackdown." cmellas | 02.13.08 - 5:04 am |
In addition, in a posting I made to Abdar at: Kermit | 02.13.08 - 4:18 am |, I said "Whatever the situation of Amanda's guilt / innocence, of course she is subject to the legal processes of Italy. Amanda's family's acceptance of that shines compared to others non-acceptance of it."
Cmellas, not Abdar responds to it at cmellas | 02.13.08 - 5:39 am |, saying "Thankyou, it has been difficult but given that she is innocent, we feel that we will be heard at some point and that is some solace...not much but some and it helps."
I haven't looked for other instances of recognition by the two, but I can assume that Cmellas the poster, if he had wanted to repudiate a relation with Abdar, would have done so, and not referred to any "co-worker".
Let's not waste time with this discussion, please. And if you want to open up a dialogue and not make just a one-off comment, I suggest you choose a moniker.
Folks, I have reason to think the Chris was for real, and that "goofy" was a co-worker. I can see a lot of data you all can't -- one reason I always try to correct folks when they refer to commenting here or at any weblog as "blogging." It isn't -- you can't see other's e-mails, their IP addresses. You can't delete their posts if they're obnoxious. Something could go kerflooey tomorrow and take these comments away, but I'd still have my blog posts in my e-mail. The blogger is also the webmaster, so there really is a big difference.
One reader came up with "blogment" a long time ago, and that's closer to accurate, because plenty of comments I get would make decent blog entries, I do agree.
I have a lot of experience in people trying to troll under different hats. I can still be fooled, of course, but I think you all are being overly suspicious, based on the data in my stat trackers. That's still just a personal opinion, though. I'm not so sure that the Madeleine McCann PR model applies that well to this case.
For the record -- the IP has been edited:
IP Address: 66.194.74.**
United States
Washington
Bellevue
ISP: Chris Mellas
Returning Visits: 9
Visit Length: 7 hours 9 mins 21 secs
If cmellas and Abnar are who they say they are then their flippant style of posts were VERY disturbing to me. They presented absolutely nothing of substance to convince me of Amanda's innocence.
Edda and Curt's body language and expressions of pain on 20/20 indicated to me they are scared and they both know Amanda is in serious trouble. Chris M might want to take a trip to Italy and see for himself.
~~
Just so you all know -- I'm not trying to take anyone's side here -- I think the intro to this open thread makes it clear how I view this case right now. But I do believe in being fair, and I also think that a lot of discussion about these people being who they say they are eventually derails the thread as a whole, and ends up essentially off-topic.
In reply to Steve's post above, and not having scrolled back up since last night, my gut feeling last night was that "goofy" is a coworker of Chris' and that he and "abdar" are the same person.
My only problem with goofy last night is that he was being rude to just about everyone. Maybe that situation has evolved...
Steve,
I agree with Indie. I see no reason to question their identity but they--in particular goofy--are not being particularly respectful of the board. It's like they want to derail the discussion.
As you rightly say, the problem is that they are succeeding if we spend all day talking about whether or not they are who they say they are.
I asked goofy last night and will ask again: do you plan to contribute to the discussion or derail it? I hope it is the former.
I'll even go out on a limb and say I have no doubt you are who you say you are. You sound like that guy.
Anonymous --> will you please establish a handle as sometimes regulars are on other PC connections that default to "Anonymous". You've been consistent in your tone so you must be just one Anon., [perhaps a descendant of that Great English Poet?] but still would you please choose a handle.
WOW, it looks like I tell Everybody to Take a Break Until March 'cause nothings going on, and Even More Interesting Stuff Breaks Out. I have some reading to do!!! Has xin been back?
Yet again, PLEASE, no more about Candace. If you want to B&M about her, create your own blog at blogspot, call it "Italian Candy Ain't Sweet" and have at it there.
And I see that Steve H thinks quite highly about Dog Preston, for all of you taking shots back on Halo III.
Until I get a chance to read the last several hundred posts at Halo III...
as Middie would say
Ciao
.
KERMIT
Before this gets too long, could you re-post your links to the various presentations shortly, so we can just say "go to top of this thread, Kermit such & such"? Thanks.
I agree Steve. I am sorry to have made a comment about the whole CMellas/Abdar "issue" but those two are just not sitting right with me.
I was wondering to those in the know:
On April 1st will Amanda's defense team need to be prepared to solidify whatever alibi they feel is most suited to convince the judge she was not involved with the murder? In other words will more facts surface either from the ILE side or defense side?
~~
To anotheranon, who asked for links to Meredith's morality (did you mean as in hypertext links???) said: "No disrespect to her, but everyone's trying to piece this puzzle together with facts and Amanda's personality as well as Guedes and Raffaeles have been picked apart in the worst way possible."
Meredith Kercher was murdered. We cannot today examine her current actions because she ceased brutally to be in a position to act on the night of November 1. We don't need to ask her for an alibi or an accounting of her actions: UNFORTUNATELY, we know precisely where she was when the murder occurred.
For some insight into the person she was, the police retrieved a diary from her room that may give us some idea of what she was thinking around the time of her death. Maybe it will give us some idea of who might have done this to her; maybe no. In the Le Monde article I posted here, the journalists says this about Mez: "...a victim that everyone describes as reserved, sensitive and a little shy."
Minotaur,
We know when Filomena arrived, according to the Judge's report I quoted yesterday:
"On 2 November 2007 at 12.35pm persons from the Postal Police of Perugia went to Via della Pergola 7 in order to track down Romanelli Filomena, since in the same morning Mrs Lana Elisabetta had found on the lawn of the garden attached to her house, in Perugia, Via Sperandio 5b, two mobile phones of which one had the sim card of Vodafone 348 467 3711, belonging to the same Romanelli.
Upon reaching the destination the agents found outside the building on Via Della Pergola 7 two youths, identified as KNOX Amanda Marie, who lived at that address, and SOLLECITO Raffaele, who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri military police, called because on that morning they became aware of a window with the glass broken and had suspected a theft.
In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment."
We don't know, however, if she saw the body. But I'm sure she knows. So we'll find out.
...But "coming into her own", which is I think a US phrase. Re Patrick L's later comments about offering her a server/bartender job just a day or two before her death. She'd told him her own ["wicked mix"?] drink recipe to impress him. [Halo II, I think.] Also, see the Halloween pics for her developing public exuberance. This would have been an important transistional year for her, but more for personality development than say education -- these are mini-"Grand Tours". I've written before on this that "Meredith was going to have a great year."
I do believe that ILE has identified and interviewed ALL the males who could qualify as "boyfriends" even tangentially, or they should have to eliminate all possible suspects. We don't actually know that as no statement on interviews beyond "the boys downstairs" has ever been released. Those they did tell the papers had been interviewed.
reposted from haloscan
Michael (UK),
99.999% of the time the dog bites the man, man bites dog .001% or less.
Forensic pathologists know that, for the most part, a slashed or stabbed throat supports the theory of a male (usually an angry male).
Forensic pathologists look to the suspect(s) past.
Question:
Why did mignini fire the med examiner?
Didn't he like the results?
Can he do that?
Question:
Has Davies(the lady in france) been found guilty or has she confessed?
Steve,
You can tell them I am Abdar.
Since I said Abdar was going silent, I didn't want to use that name anymore. Youcan confirm my email...
also, I think I came clean with attitude last night with Sparrow...go back and read....
I am one person, but many of you came out and got all over my program in her or skeps defense. Its a two way street....so I haven't said anything more...nor I don't know if I will after today
I or Chris can't bring anything to this blogspot.
Good luck to you all.
Signed,
goofy, Abdar, does it really matter?
Ubob,
For a good and humorous explanation of Lalli's demise, see Frank's perugia shock blog entry for yesterday.
As for Jessica Davies, I can check that status of the case if you want, but I think she confessed immediately and even called the ambulance.
goofy, Abdar, does it really matter?
googy | 02.16.08 - 1:16 pm | #
I like Abdar, and I thought we had some good talks last night.
abdar (goofy/googy),
Are you speaking for Chris when you say you can't bring anything to this blogspot?
Can you or he tell me if the questions I posted the other day are all case-related and therefore can't be answered?
I'm sorry if you felt I was all over you last night. It just didn't seem that you wanted to bring anything constructive to the discussion when you arrived. Maybe that's unfair. I'll go back and reread your posts and the replies.
I hope Chris will come back and join us. But it is important to know that this is not a support group or a group of close family and friends whose role is to provide comfort. Chris certainly needs that right now; his world has been turned upside down and he's stuck in a process that has been set in motion and must play itself out. There's little he can do to alter that. It must be difficult. If he came here, it must have been to discuss the case and defend a point of view. That is legit. He offered to answer questions and we accepted his generous offer. There was some background noise, some dissenting voices. We've all had to learn to deal with them, sometimes just by ignoring them. As his friend/coworker, maybe the best thing you can do for him is to help him ignore the voices here that are openly hostile. My feeling yesterday, though, was that you wanted to rile folks up. That doesn't seem helpful to your friend.
RobertM:
I think it was a mojito made with Polish Bison vodka, which PL would have appreciated as a nod to his Polish wife.
How many Poles does it take to build a case in Perugia?
GOOFY!! --> NO!! Don't go. I just got back!!!! I haven't read cm or your posts yet!!!
What matters is direct conversation. If you can bring direct factual knowledge or even indirect emotional understanding, stay around, please. (Must warn you, xin bites.) Sure there are (most) people here who've made up their minds. Why, JohnT isn't half so sure as rob from London. (ha!) And on the other hand Pinecone hasn't re-appeared to restate his basic thesis so I'll do it again:
which is, as far as we know, and bcpl please note this, there is NO trace of AK's DNA as blood or otherwise in Meredith's room -- none, nada, nyet. Whereas what isn't there of Rudy's? And we still have the two "outlier" DNA on the cotton swabs [perhaps the very ones that can be seen on the top of the duvet in Kermits pics] which would seem to show that yes TWO (2) people were in that room with Rudy. And everything that could be argued that places AK there that night is really--so far by what the ILE has leaked to the press--just what you would expect to find of someone who was living there.
If ILE had a true smoking gun piece of evidence on AK, then in the much earlier words of seattleite's attorney boyfriend, it's finito, throw away the key. BUT they DON'T because if they did, they'd have TRUMPETED it all around. That's been their SOP all along. No DNA, no trumpet. Getting very very very circumstantial.
As to the question Douglas Preston posed on Halo III re Mignin's ongoing participation as prosecutor, no, I'm not happy to see that given his past history and that's not just with Preston. He's got an idee fixee. But once assigned a case, it takes top-top-level intervention, as happened int he Madeline case, to get someone like that off. Natural bureaucratic politics.
So, goofy, stick around and please contribute concretely. Once, on another of Steve's threads, we had key witness posting after she'd testified (vetted through Stee). Now THAT was interesting!
SB No, I don't. How many Poles does it take?
(I was never good at sussing these things out beforehand.)
Goofy / Abdar / Chris M ... when the missionaries started travelling the world, they didn't expect pagans to be kneeling down and praying to the Virgin Mother Mary after just two briefing sessions. Come on, you are old enough to brave (or ignore) the flak and tell us about the Cross. And if you keep at it, you may just achieve that some of us incorporate this or that of your dogma in our traditional tribal ways. Or not. But, if you try, you're already getting results that 20/20 doesn't get. Don't worry, we're not going to boil you in a cauldron with sliced tomatoes, garlic a bit of salt.
-
Robert M,
Well, so far we have PL's wife, possibly the Polish student who saw AK and/or RS, and a male student from Poland who was interviewed (why I can't remember) in the early days.
Too bad the dumpster scraper is Albanian. But there may be more to come...
Robert M. | 02.16.08 - 12:10 pm | "Kermit ... could you re-post your links to the various presentations"
Here they are. The image quality (+ some bits of animation) are much better in the Powerpoints (the files with .pps extension) rather than the .pdf's.
Updated Floorplan
Giallo-Floorplan-Updated-pt0a.pps (2.5 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?eao191ydit0
Giallo-Floorplan-Updated-pt0a.pdf (6 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?1gwtvgo90nw
(Updated floorplan of cottage with crimescene CSI video and photo images)
-------------------------------------------------
Relation of girls' house to Raffaele's and Rudy's place
PerugiaLocations-pt0b.pps (1.5 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?2u1utdtzx2j
PerugiaLocations-pt0b.pdf (2 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?dn1myyzidkh
(Relation of Girls' house to Raffaele's and Rudy's homes, also to location where mobile phones were found. Presentation from early December.)
-------------------------------------------------
Pre-crime movements of persons of interest, on Nov.1
GialloDiPerugia-pt1.pps (4 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?19ewg34myso
GialloDiPerugia-pt1.pdf (15 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?eh1wetdyoyx
(Movements of main persons involved, in the afternoon and early evening of Nov.1 - no actual crime events documented. This file is useful because of the documental hyperlinks at the end - mostly to newspaper articles - which are associated with the individual events depicted in the presentation ... This file is from very early January, so some comments are outdated: eg. the English friends did not return to Perugia for further questioning, the Time of Death has varied, and the finding of Raffaele's DNA on the victim's bra changes the possible scenarios.)
-------------------------------------------------
Attempt to understand structure and history of cottage
GialloDiPerugia-pt2-TheHouse.pps (4 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?6dggy94u0am
GialloDiPerugia-pt2-TheHouse.pdf (10 mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?cb1311zyz1s
(Good for understanding relation to road, carpark, town)
-------------------------------------------------
Premeditated Merlot
Giallo--Mudedes-Merlot.pps (4 Mb.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?1113ydkuj14
(Potpourri Powerpoint of odds and ends based loosely on Charles Mudede's visit. There's no pdf yet, will try to get it out this weekend)
-
ubob (sorry about the U cap earlier):
If you're interested, here is a translation from a French source of Miss Davies' sad story:
A 28-year old British woman was taken into custody on Monday, November 12, 2007 after admitting that, under the influence of alcohol, she had stabbed a 24-year old man she had met in a bar in Saint Germain-en-Laye. (Note: this is basically a suburb of Paris).
Early Sunday morning, Jessica Davies, still inebriated, called the police to say she had stabbed a man she had spent the night with in her Saint Germain-en-Laye apartment.
“Extreme sexual experience”
Initially unable to explain her actions, she said she was suffering from a memory lapse, and only remembered having met the young French man in a bar a few hours earlier. She later said she had been inspired by the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia, and was looking for an “extreme sexual experience.”
“The best thing that could happen to me”
According to friends who have visited her in prison, the young woman said that this was “the best thing that could happen to me.” According to her former boyfriend, “Jessica didn’t even mention the poor guy. She went on to say that this event had been a wake-up call and that she was going to seek treatment for her mental and drug problems.”
Thank you, Kermit!
Drat, I thought we had a legit joke there, SB, as in 3 but only if one of them brings a hammer and nails becasue the other two bring the books (for the case). Weak weak weak. I just can't do jokes. A pun, on occasion.
I can completely understand that for Chris Mellas there would be good days, and there would be bad days. On the good days we might expect to see him here. For the record, I want to say that I would love to see Amanda set free from all this - if she is innocent. I do believe there is some potential for that to happen and that there is ample evidence of a warm and generous spirit within her. I think there are a lot of cards yet to be played and you adults are never going to be able to understand what her reality is like - you can only make of it what you are able based upon your own experiences. This deal is not done and if Chris can provide substantial support for her innocence I'm more than willing to listen.
RobertM,
I'm working on that joke, but am not much good either. I've rejected a couple of ideas as horribly inappropriate.
Robert M:
How about it takes 3, but only if one of them is really Albanian...
Though some here treated him respectfully, I can understand why Mr. Mellas lost interest. This seems to be an instance where factionalism didn’t serve us well.
He was put on the defensive and was really in a losing situation. Bombarded with more questions than he could have possibly handled, if he didn’t answer them he’d be perceived as evasive and if he did, he risked cross-examination that he probably couldn’t have fully responded to even if he wanted.
Also Doug Preston’s input was dismissed as less than relevant, unfairly, I think.
Too bad the dialogue seems to be split into two camps that sometimes can’t communicate with one another. But let’s move on …
SB, best we just stop there.
daniel, I'd rather keep trying to mesh the two, in our fashion here. You know from Halo I what theories I first came up with. You also know that I'm adept at taking Pinecone's otherway position so working from the defense side on anything new that leaks. The certainty of xin & robUK and JohnT may be totally correct. And that's a hard hard hard thing for someone like Chris Mellas (as it would be for any of us) to take about some one they've know for so long in the intimacy of a living household situation. The Kerchers have a big hole in their lives. The Knoxes/Mellases have a swirling, sucking vortex that may get larger or smaller & who knows? and so the anxiety is daily & constant.
Alas, this is not the place to have that anxiety palliated. But to worry over it, work on it, yes, this is a place for that. I would have suggested to Chris M that he do as the woman in the Georgia murder case did, create a once-removed persona and present the alternatives to us, i.e. be Abdar and not cmellas. As the case is in the Italian courts, and not in the US and there's no gag-order against discussing it, "I heard from a friend" stuff is perfectly appropriate here. To which the old regulars (coyotewatch, xin, etc) and the new ones could cogitate on. I'm not trying to just be even handed. I AM trying to consider, always, "well if this then that" or "if That then this." And surely there are things that as the querying persona Abdar COULD present and discuss. The objective being perspective.
Perhaps goofy as Abdar could do this. That would be twice-removed and might be more psychologically comfortable.
And some times, as I've written at length on Halo II and Halo III, Good People get involved in Bad Things out of transitory willfulness, sometimes inadvertently out of bad luck or plain stupidity or an alcohol induced stupor. And sometimes those are people we know and care about. And the outcomes are not good.
CASE in POINT: Tewksbury MA mother of 2, stay-at-home soccer mom for past 5 years is now doing 5 months at Fed Danbury Prison, and will do another 5 months braceleted at home, because Fed DAs prosecuted her on lying to a grand jury in what turned out to be a civil case. I suspect it was a close call to prosecute but they had their ire up because they'd given her immunity in this Big Pharma price-fixing case (which resulted in only a large large fine, no one else ever charged). Won it before a jury and Mom lost all appeals which took 4 years!! So, she's a Federal felon with all that entails (its far far worse than being a state felon--which is why Bush pardoned Libby at Cheney's request) over something her first attorney should have rectified IMMEDIATELY with the DA. She's Officially a Bad Person, but of course she's NOT - she's a Good Person who mispoke. Still she's away for 5 months, under house arrest for 5 more, can't ever vote again, has to check off the felon box on job applications, etc etc.
According to a report Raffaele is being transferred to a different prison. From Perugia to Terni. They make it sound as its just normal. http://translate.google.com/tran...&tbb=1&ie=utf-
8
I have found more details on the post-mortem that I wasn't aware of...Briefly:
Lalli found 0,43 grams/liter alchool in Meredith blood, no drugs of any kind.He has also found a bruise on her face compatible with compression by bare hands, and a cut on the palm of her right hand in the "vain attempt to resist an attack by knife".
http://www.umbriajournal.com/dat...sistem/
home.htm
DLW,
Isn't Terni not too far from Perugia? They're both in Umbria, right? Maybe the facility in Terni is bigger? I was thinking it had to do with being closer to family, but that would not be the case here. Sounds like a routine administrative matter.
Robert M,
Have gotten no further with the joke. Decided to give up.
Daniel,
I honestly don't think the dialogue is as split as you suggest. We do try and mesh, as Robert M says--just look at some of the clashes that result.
When Chris Mellas came here, he had to deal with the usual suspects, as he must surely have known. After all, he had been reading 3 boards before he decided to jump in here. I have reread all the interactive posts with him, and feel that many people were receptive. Kermit and Michael, in particular, managed to establish a positive dialogue. If you look at the early posts, Chris himself agreed (or maybe even suggested) that we should ask questions and he would either answer or decline if case related. The majority took him at his word. Kermit's questions were short and to the point. In addition, his decision to visit got around quickly and attracted other posters. It's a free world.
I spent an entire evening looking at what he had already discussed and putting together questions to which he could answer yes, no or out of bounds. The idea was to allow him to take the time needed to reflect before answering. I didn't want to put him on the spot.
Maybe it turned out to be more difficult or frustrating than he had expected, or maybe whoever he was consulting on some questions was saying no too much of the time.
Sure, there was some hostility, but that's to be expected in an open forum like this one. Everyone faces the same constraints and has the same freedom. I would welcome his return but understand if he chooses not to. I imagine it wasn't an entirely pleasant experience, but how could it have been under the circustances? In fact, based on my limited experience here, he got pretty special treatment. I had never seen Steve Huff intervene before, as he has done in the last three days. I think that's a sign of respect.
Are there things you think should have been done differently?
SB
Terni appears to be about 50 mi south of Perugia. The prison is high security facility where apparently they also send mob figures. Raffaele should have some good company their. I assume they are maximizing limited prison space. I read where they might also relocate Rudy and Amanda. Settling in for the long stay.
Thanks for the reply, DLW. Wow. I hadn't thought of it that way.
I'll see how it goes and think about whether I will engage in the discussion.
I will see on a case by case basis. If chris decides to engage ... that is up to him. Mignini is a bit of a whinner and since family is in Italy, maybe some engagements are better left alone ... if you know what I mean.
nicki:
Re your post about Meredith's blood alcohol count of 0.43 grams/liter (would it be 0.43mg/liter?). Does this mean she consumed some alcohol on the day/night she died? That must be close to two glasses of wine, no?
In France, which has very strict drinking-driving laws, you are allowed a maximum of 0.5mg/ml of alcohol per litre in your blood (compared to 0.8mg/ml in the UK).
What about Italy?
Wasn't it reported that Meredith and her friends did not drink alcohol with their pizza and ice cream?
Abdar,
I'm not sure what you mean by Mignini is a bit of a "whinner" --) winner? whiner? weiner? Do you mean Chris is worried that if he answers our questions he'll get in trouble with Mignini? I'm a bit confused.
Abdar
I used to comment here up until a month ago. I got sick of some of the nasty comments so I stopped. I have kept checking in since many of the commenters get news very quickly from Italy and there are some people who even when I think they are wrong, are civil and open minded. There are certainly many people like myself who think this case has been sensationalized beyond all recognition.
Anything you or Chris care to say would be appreciated by many. I am sure this has been awful for all the families and I do wish Chris's family peace and resolution in the not too distant future.
Sorry Skep...
I meant Whiner....I didn't run my post through word spell check....
Hey Abdar! Glad you're here.
Thanks Sparrow....Maybe I needed my beauty sleep......well...no maybe's.....and it didn't work
Thanks Abdar. I thought you meant whiner but I wanted to be sure.
I'm glad to see that Sparrow and seattlite are in the vicinity, as I was just about to check out for awhile.
Seattlite, I think I started posting about the time you stopped. I saw your name on Haloscan II.
If anyone knows anything about blood alcohol counts and can answer my question, that would be great.
I don't know how to read the foreign numbers but I have never heard that there was any substantial amount in regards to BAC.
Goodnight Skep, if you're going. I'm not able to stick around too long either.
But Abdar, I'm really glad you came back and hope it works out okay. I know that after talking to you, despite the things that I said, I would try to be mindful of your relationship and be a little more careful in discussion with you. I think it can be done without losing critical thinking.
I will stick around and ignore the people who want to be confrontational.
May I ask skep....what is your interest in regards to the BAC?
SB - re: drugs and alcohol. Yes it was reported that no drugs OR alcohol were found in Meredith's body, and her friends confirmed no alcohol was consumed that night. So it's all very confusing once again
SB - re: drugs and alcohol. Yes it was reported that no drugs OR alcohol were found in Meredith's body, and her friends confirmed no alcohol was consumed that night. So it's all very confusing once again
soozie UK | 02.16.08 - 9:53 pm | #
Oh boy. So the little party in the house, that she might have taken part in for awhile before things got nasty...
Abdar,
I was referring to nicki's post above from the Italian press, about new details from the post-mortem:
"Lalli found 0,43 mg/liter alcohol in Meredith's blood, no drugs of any kind. He has also found a bruise on her face compatible with compression by bare hands, and a cut on the palm of her right hand in the "vain attempt to resist an attack by knife."
In earlier press reports, it was stated that Meredith had not consumed any alcohol on the night of Nov 1.
Abdar,
Please don't be "goofy." Just kidding! I'm glad you're willing to come back. Back to your comment about Mignini being a whiner: did you mean he will get upset if Chris says too much?
Sparrow,
Yes, this latest information is interesting.
Also, nicki reports a bruise on the face compatible with compression (squeezing by two hands) and a wound to the right palm (warding off an attack).
I was reading through last night's gruesome discussion about knives and rage and necks. Michael (I believe it was) said that pulling a knife out of the neck is no easy operation. So I was wondering if the hyoid bone could have been broken when the knife was being pulled out and/or possibly after death? Same with the compression bruises on the face...Can these wounds be identified as pre- or post-mortem, in other words?
I've been off since I made my post yesterday that ticked everyone off, and have only read a couple below mine since. Never did I intend to give anyone the impression that Meredith did ANYTHING wrong, or that she ASKED for this. On the last haloscan somebody, I don't remember who, and am not giong to dig back and find it, made a statement about Guede after the medical report was released that they didn't "think" she would willingly have sex with him. I'm just wondering how anyone "knows" what her sexual history was, and when someone is accused of raping her, when the evidence says she wasn't, then yes, I find it relavent. I know it's a slim chance, but what if Guede were telling the truth?
First I want to say that normally if I say I cannot comment on something, it is because my knowledge may be different than yours.
Now, your questions....I am not aware of the BAC content and I have never heard about a cut on anyones hands. The other question I cannot comment on.
I just checked nicki's link to the Umbria journal and found the article. Indeed, if my Italian to French translation is correct, the BAC was 0.43 grams/liter of blood, the compression bruise on the face is compatible with ONE hand, and there is a supeficial wound on the right palm compatible with an attempt to ward off a blow.
Ok how can I say this without getting everyone in an uproar.....
When spezi and preston said too much about the MOF case, they were arrested and brought up on charges.
If people with "inside" knowledge were to say too much and travel to Italy or already be in Italy, they could be brought up on charges....
You will have to read between the lines on that...
Addar
Would it be fair to say that the various "alibi" "inconsistencies" between Amanda and RS are press driven and leak driven rather than "actual" discrepancies, as far as you know.
If this is a bumbly question, please ignore.
I know it's a slim chance, but what if Guede were telling the truth?
anotheranon | 02.16.08 - 10:08 pm |
I'm one of those who still keeps this as a possibility, but I don't mention it much. Some people have a certain image of Rudy that they can't match with Meredith. I don't think this has anything to do with morals though. And I think people get upset when that word is used. I don't use it. I think it's very possible that some women that age were attracted to Rudy either as a sex partner, or friend. He's not a beast. His Spanish friends were women, I think.
Abdar,
I have no problem with your explanation. I think it applies to more than just what happened to Spezi and Preston, though. It seems like a reasonable thing to ask whenever an investigation is being conducted.
Sparrow and anotheranon,
I see no reason why Rudy should be treated as more or less trustworthy than anyone else. I don't see him as a bum or a drifter, as he has been portrayed. I think there's a slight tendency to stereotype in his case.
All three suspects have written diaries, and these diaries have been published. In the case of RS and AK, the diaries were ultimately released for publication by their defense teams. I'm not sure how Rudy's came to be published.
My gut feeling is that a true or mostly true story can be patched together from what has been stated and written by all. There would be some elements missing.
He means, I think that Mignini is thin-skinned, and that with its international notoriety, and after all we do have several posters from Italy and who knows how many readers [Steve could look it up but identify?], someone might "report" to the PM a true but misunderstood or completely misrepresented version of something said here attributed to Chris M. Which HAS happened here but the drop-a-dime was to the defense team AFTER the verdict (that Georgia case) and they did get their noses out of joint briefly. Its possible that such a report would do the same to the PM's prominent proboscis and while it would have no official role, all that kind of stuff "motivates" DAs if so inclined. And Mignini certainly sounds like someone so inclined. Actually he sounds like someone LOOKING for such inclination.
Which is one reason I suggested that Abdar come back.
Yet everyone is leaking like seive over there, the police and the ME and the lawyers (well until recently & Rudy's team has always been quiet). Judges here impose "gag orders' (everybody shut up) only AFTER charges are filed.
Also re prison switches, people not yet charged in the US are nearly 90% held in local/town or county JAILS as opposed to regular prisons because (1) considered not guilty and (2) must be able to meet regularly with lawyers. (Though of course this NOT always case, especially in Virginia or so I've read on law blogs there.) Moving a person 50 miles away from where the trial would be held would be very very exceptional in the States.
Skep: I see no reason why Rudy should be treated as more or less trustworthy than anyone else...
Since Rudy by his own admission left a mortally wounded woman to die, I find him less trustworthy.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.16.08 - 10:23 pm | #
Totally agree. When he said her told her that joke, "Would you like to suck my blood, because you lost your cup (soccer reference)," I know if I were her age, at a party, that would have made me laugh. Well, I would laugh now, actually. But some comments characterized his joke as weird or creepy.
seattleite,
As far as I know, her story before she was interogated and after she was interogated is her story. This is what her mother confirmed on 20/20 and is what I have known and believed since early November.
Since Rudy by his own admission left a mortally wounded woman to die, I find him less trustworthy.
seattleite | 02.16.08 - 10:27 pm | #
Less trustworthy than someone who left someone to die, but lied about it?
Seattlite, I'm not hostile, my point is these are not absolutes (except for Rudy's admission) so the comparison may be clear to you, but not to others.
seattlite,
Well, he admitted he left her to die, which means that he is a coward but not necessarily a liar.
We don't know all that much about Rudy, actually, except that he left his DNA and fingerprints in the victim's room and his feces in the toilet. He may or may not have taken the cellphones (no confirmation yet about the partial print), may or may not have taken the money, and may or may not have taken credit cards. We know that he went to the disco after leaving the cottage.
Wonder of Wonders! I've found my way back here!
I had given up reaching the current page of this blog ever again.
After innumerable attempts over many days, I had given up. But,last night, I decided to try again and found, to my shock, that I was able to load this page... effortlessly!
I subsequently read (ok, actually, I scanned) the 4,457,098,987 posts here that I missed in my absence, and am now a very
Tired, but Up-to-date Traduco.
P.S. FYI, that odd-sounding Italian barrel phrase "fare a scaricabarile" is the Italian for "passing the buck"~ but I think Nicki gave an equally good translation, a few thousand posts ago.
I've supported Pinecone on this point, and also coyotewaits who has gone into chapter & verse on what I call Chicago style interrogration. The 5:22 am so-called "confession" would get tossed by a presiding US judge in the evidentiary hearing after charges were filed due to the lack of documentation, translation issues, etc. Whether the PM can keep it in after charges are filed in Italy depends on Italy's jurisprudence on these matters. An American DA would certainly be arguing to keep it. But these types of "poisoned fruit" results almost always get tossed in the US.
Precisely what AK said can never be accurately determined, and as coyote has evidenced, police get false "confessions" all the time. So in that sense, yes, I agree that AK's testimony has been consistent int he broadest sense.
Now let's see who else has been typing!!
Sparrow:
It was sunny here today and nearly 50. I have no hostility either.
Traduco: Welcome, I think you missed one.
Traduco, when the page is loading, sometimes I see an old post of yours, and I wonder, "What happened to that guy?"
Il tuo problema con il computer sembra impossibile.
seattleite | 02.16.08 - 10:39 pm |
Thanks Seattlite.
Traduco welcome back. To find out what you really really missed you are STILL going to have get back tothe last 200 posts at Halo III. You came in on Halo III. We are now on Halo IV. I think the grand grand total is now over 6000 posts.
Robert M. | 02.16.08 - 10:38 pm | #
Robert M., I think Frank at Perugia Shock has said once or twice in the comments sections of his articles that the false confession will not be admissible.
I fear Traduco lost his Halo page.
Sparrow
Not to put too fine a point on it. But I believe it was reported that Amanda said she did not ever make a confession. Knowing how any prosecutor frames things and until there is some evidence otherwise I accept that.
Seattlite, isn't the Lumumba story written in her own hand?
the ME's report : while Mignini might very well have "fired" Lalli from the case because the ME did not provide documentation to support the PM's "theory", I would have fired him because, though working with a very very recent crime scene, he still can't narrow time of death down to a REASONABLE amount of time. I believe we are still looking at 10 pm to 4 am??????? Please correct me if this has changed.
And please note that an early report, mentioned above, has Meredith talking with her mother at 2130 or 9:30 pm, just a half hour BEFORE the earliest time-point for her death. Really, not enough time for the the chaos to develop.
And if indeed Meredith did talk to her mother, what did she say? That's never been leaked at all. And we know that could provide context. As its not been reported [for instance, "Oh, Amanda's back with a stranger in her room. She's such a slut" is somehting you'd expect to be reported], then there was no situational context. Meredith said nothing to her mother about any other people inthe house. OR the ILE would have leaked it. It'd be too important to them not to!
But Lalli's report, and now with the alcohol in it, would be a problem for ANY DA. However, an American DA couldn't fire him. They all work in separate administrative units! Different bosses.
That is not a confession.
Robert M
Don't say, great to see you back seattleite. And after all the hours we have spent together.
Robert M,
Frank reports on perugia shock that Lalli was fired because of the leaks in the days leading up to the release of his report. One such leak was over the phone and was played on television.
I do wonder about what is leaked and not leaked, though. Tacopina talked about the requirements for holding a suspect without charges being really low, leading to a minimum amount of information being leaked/provided until the preliminary investigation is over. Do you think that only the big stuff has been leaked?
Abdar,
Back to seattlite's question. I had understood it to be about the discrepancies between AK and RS's alibis: are they real or press inventions? Something like that.
re AK "confession"
sparrow & seattleite --> I think its ALL oral. What was written was either b y the translator or more likley the second cop going by what the translator said.
The question, whether its admissable or not and Mignini will argue hard to keep it in, is whether she (1) signed it after being re-read it so that (2) she knew what she was signing.
In a recent Alaska case, even though the cop videotaped 3 hours of interrogration of a 15 year old and it was initially admitted as evidence, on reconsideration the judge tossed it because (1) there was a break and the father as guardian never reconsented to the interview, and (2) in the second part the judge felt the cop was much too leading in his "questions". [But he was very good indeed.] And (3) he never asked her to sign anything.
In such a case as this, I was shocked to learn they did not video tape the interrogation.
Ah, seattleite. Shucks, and I just dun got quotin' somethin' just above you reported the bf attorney had said way back on Halo II. Like as if you were never out of my thoughts!
That is not a confession.
seattleite | 02.16.08 - 10:55 pm |
Actually I called it a FALSE confession. I don't know if you missed that word.
Theory comes to mind when you guys talk confessions
Confession: There is the "confession" of November 6th (1:45 am?) and then a written statement that AK wrote voluntarily for the police a few days later, in which she says she's not sure about anything she has said so far. That statement was written in English.
This issue came up yesterday or the day before on the prior thread, with Kermit wondering what time AK and RS were taken in for questioning on Nov 5th. We were trying to figure out how much time elapsed between the beginning of questioning and the 1:45 statement, since it has been said that AK was questioned for 14 hours with no food, no break and no interpreter.
It was reported on cnn on Feb 1 that the police now say an interpreter was present throughout.
Funny how an interpreter was present but no attorney was.....
Good night everyone.
Dinner calls!
Sparrow,
Perhaps I have a mindset cause I deal with lawyers everyday to check and recheck like a zillion times. If Amanda says she never made a confession then I look back at the document to see where the error is...I don;t have the document. There is a reason she said she didn't give a confession and it is in the full text of that document and the way it was taken.
This isn't niggling. It is key to the truth of what was said and how it was said.
Adbar: There is a scenario on these comments called the Pinecone Theory which theorizes that the snap police/prosecutor theory is wrong and all facts are being forced into that...making a mess.
Theory comes to mind when you guys talk confessions
Abdar | 02.16.08 - 11:04 pm |
What do you mean?
Funny how an interpreter was present but no attorney was.....
Abdar | 02.16.08 - 11:06 pm | #
More like stupid.
Good night everyone.
Dinner calls!
Skeptical Bystander | 02.16.08 - 11:09 pm | #
I wish I could join you. I bet you cook very well, although I don't know how you find the time. Going to dig in my fridge right now.
As I remember [Halo I], the so-called confession was around 5:22 am. AK had been questioned from at least 11:30, if not in small chunks of time for several hours beforehad. The 14 hours MAY refer to the elapsed time between arrest and the 5:22 am "statement"--the one that AK later referred to as making them all jump with very excited.
Whether she got bathroom breaks or not, as coyotewaits described in detail, this kind of relentless questioning, conducted in waves with partners shifting and clearly slowed down by the presence of a translator, is Standard Operating Procedure for police forces. Chicago-Style. See Halo III search for coyotewaits.
Now what Sen. Obama as a state senator got passed was Illionis' everything-must-be taped law--and he did it with unanimous backing of all the interested parties. Only about 14 OTHER US states have adopted a mandatory requirement to videotape all formal interrogations. Other states have simply highly recommended it. Alaska uses it where the equipment is available.
Actually, while you, Abdar are surprised it wasn't used, in fact I'd have been surprised if it WAS. Because that meant someone on the Perugia LE had glommed onto the fact this was not going to be the usual thing, not with an American invovled. And someone must have had an inkling as they quickly ordered the cellphone wiretaps. And, yes, AK should have been told she had the right to contact the US Embassy first, but again that's not a requirement but rather something the State Department has always said is the responsbility of the effected American individual.
And if they had videotaped the interrogration, Mignini would stand a greater chance of getting the whole thing admitted as evidence! Shot themselves in the foot on that one in several ways.
Sparrow,
I can't elaborate anymore on that...
sorry.
Abdar re again lawyer present.
Not required under any jurisdiction that I'm aware of. One has a "duty", yes here too, to cooperate with the police in their public safety investigation. One can get charged with obstructing that investigation if not cooperative. Getting booked on that is one way for the cops to keep you around where they can see you if they are looking for concrete evidence elsewhere.
When someone in the US ASKS for a lawyer, all direct interrogation must cease. (In fact, the NYPD has just announced that the NYC shrink-killer has been arrested and after 20 minutes he asked for a lawyer and so everything stopped. Not 14 hours, 20 minutes.) Whether or not AK was informed that under the EU Charter of Rights she did indeed have the right to remain silent is an UNKNOWN. I think we are at a "they say yes/she says no" and again no videotape impasse. And who knows how the translator phrased it to her and AK has demonstrated a general tendency to please people in authority, so saying OK ask is somehting I would have expected her to do. (She herself should have asked for a lawyer, but I know that at my age, but if was her age...) As seattleite remarks, where's the signed document as I also mentioned? If none, then there is NO CONFESSION.
What does happen here is that because this "confession" was heavily publicized by the ILE--leaked in part only--as well as the follow-up written statement that SB refers to, we here use it in discussion. Unlike an American jury, we can't be told to ignore it in our deliberations, because we are just discussing, not deliberating. Pinecone's overall point [other than that Rudy did it all] is that each leak must be conscientiously scrutinized and used with caution.
And, seattleite, glad to see you are pitching in on the judicial caution side of things again, and not just being a reader. [OK? OK? You can have all my leftover Disqus points, OK?]
It would be ironic if the interrogation is thrown out of court, after Knox's quotes from it have been so widely reported and unhelpful to her.
Skeptical and Robert M
What I had talked about before regarding Mr. Mellas seems too far back in the thread to go into again, but your replies made sense.
Oh, daniel, we'll get back to those posts. Abdar will just have translate any responses as he sees fit.
Abdar | 02.16.08 - 11:33 pm | #
I was just adding a comment, but now I realize what's going on. Abdar, really, you're among friends and it's kind of slow now, as am I, but I hope you come back often and stick to your guns, stay silent when you need to, say what you want according to your rules and don't pay too much attention when people don't understand. I guess you're doing that. I'm just adding the encouragement whether it's needed or not, as I'll be out of here soon.
Adbar
This may be too personal and if so ignore, but can Chris, the business life, family life go on with a modicum of normalcy. Obviously its not normal with family members jetting back and forth, I guess I am asking if you all get hassled alot or can you carry on in a fairly regular way.
I don't want to pry but if we were at Safeco and got talking I might ask you that.
thanks sparrow....I have figured out what's going on here....its a mixed bag.
Abdar, like I said, I'm slow. I thought you were talking about another post. Now I got it. Geez. I have a prolonged jet-lag and should probably not be communicating with anyone. Ciao.
Seattleite,
I tried to answer your question for the past several minutes. I just don't know how to tactfully out of respect for Chris.
Robert M
We had a discussion back in Halo 1 that when it was reported that Amanda was keeping a diary I believe I said: didn't her lawyer tell her not to do that? What are these diaries? Is there some sort of quasi-legal thing I am missing. Are these attorney-client privileged? Were they asked to write these?
Adbar
Thanks. I appreciate your tolerance.
I didn't mean to pry but seriously, that's what I would ask if I met him at the ball game. Barbara Walters I am not.
Seattleite,
Not a problem. I guess when you think that they were just a normal family and now have a PR firm helping them says allot.
Robert M:
Timeline:
Meredith home: 21:00
Talk with mum: 21:30
Call from M's cell to bank: 22:15 (We don't know if this was her calling, right?)
I'm thinking about this in terms of blood alcohol reading of 0.43. That would be 2 drinks. She did not have alcohol with her friends.
I don't know where this leads, but it could be interesting.
Abdar,
I imagine that their lives are totally disrupted, that they are all sleep-deprived, that they are feeling the weight of separation, and that this is a nightmare. It must be horrible. It's great that Chris has your support right now.
Abdar
Says it all. Media, internet, instant but frequently bad information...I had some experience with the press in a very good situation and I hated it.
Skep,
It doesn't say the 1/2 of it.
Seattleite re the diaries. What we lack is a societal context as all 3 kept something and yet all 3 were confiscated after several days several weeks by prison authorities and turned over to the ILE. That they were promptly leaked is a step beyond what would happen here. You can keep a diary in a US prison but it can be inspected and confiscated if it provides evidence of planning to hurt yourself, others or create a prison disturbance. And used against you in every prison's point system [Kansas calls one general type of infraction Violation of Published Orders and there are literally over hundred plus of those. Get enough of those no matter severity and you are in solo 23-1 durance for awhile & it really hurts at parole time. It is all about control on the inside to sustain the police/community safety position.]
It seems that the Trio's lawyers encouraged them to do so rather than just write letters and mailing them directly. A dumb idea period. But even then, given ILE's ability, nay legally able to do so, taping of AK's conversations with her PARENTS, they most likely can open ANY mail. Both opening outgoing mail and taping visitors without their knowledge is ILLEGAL, as far as I know, in the states.
So it seems to be a cultural thing riding on the sidebar handles of the EU Charter of Rights. Stuff that needs to be adjudicated up to the Hague level, just as a lot has gone up to SCOTUS, and is established case law.
Robert M
Have you become the king of google!? That is why I asked the question. Is this some sort of expected procedure. Seemed odd the lawyers were agreeable to it. Perhaps it can't be used against them but it can be used to support their release? Pure guess but that is what I am thinking.
FWIW, Tonight MSNBC rebroadcast an old "DATELINE" entitled "Murder on Lovers' Lane" about the "Mostro di Firenze" case. Featured Douglas Preston, Mario Spezi and some other familiar characters.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19333195/
---------------------------------
Sparrow wrote:
"Il tuo problema con il computer sembra impossibile."
Sparrow: Ahhhhh, si`...
Whatever Steve did to this blog the other day seemed to make a radical difference. I'll check back here in the next day or so, to make sure that this wasn't simply a 24-hour-long aberration or perhaps a hallucination on my part.
Meanwhile...
Buona Domenica a tutti!
Tired Trailing Traduco
SB thanks for reminding me. i had wanted to get back to The Musrooms and the Wine and The Cheese.
Timeline:
Meredith home: 21:00
[Rudy has stated it was 20:30 or 8:30 but Meredith's friends are all consistent on time she left and she was partially walked home.]
Talk with mum: 21:30
[Now I want to be careful on this. I only saw it once and its just been referred to again above. I'm assuming its true. Still content must have been innocuous, i.e. nothing involving the Trio, as NOTHING about the call has been leaked. The OTHER thing we don't k now is HOW LONG MEREDITH WAS ON THE LINE WITH MOM.]
Raid the Fridge: 21:50 or so
[So I'm saying she was online about 20 minutes. Meredith then ate some mushrooms and mozzarella cheese. At this point, she must have had one glass of wine, perhaps a single very large one as opposed to an initial glass and then a refill. I suspect she had the wine first, even when talking to her mother, and then went back for the mushrooms. Lalli has been consistent on this point that the food was not much digested and that one mushroom got regurgitated into her esophagus during her death. That she had the food doesn't mean that she was interacting with anyone; just that she hit the fridge the same as I did tonight [Alpine Lace wrapped around sliced pieces of some seasoned turkey]. What Lalli hasn't said, and this goes back to his inability to really narrow her death window down, is how far along this last meal was to being processed in her stomach. Such things are KNOWN and Lalli can't figure it out? That at least one mushroom was not much decomposed so as to be readily identifiable as being in her esophagus STRONGLY SUGGESTS that much time had lapsed, so say 10:30 to 1:30. [Why Lalli can't say even this is beyond me and I'm just an historian.]
Call from M's cell to bank: 22:15
(We don't know if this was her calling, right? --> Well, we don't. How could we if ILE has no idea? I'm not even sure if we know that the call went through, i.e. how long it was. The bank certainly has told the ILE what it was for from their end of things as such records can be traced, as in "ATM check". But let's assume it was her, because as above I have Meredith getting to the food at 21:50, so as she finishes her late snack she decides to check her bank balance.)
22:17: And then WHAT?
Robert M
Geez. I hadn't thought of the call except in connection with a nefarious motive. It could have been innocent?
Gotto go. Robert M good to see you (sort of see you)
Best to all and thanks to Adbar.
Kermit: thanks for the powerpoints. They are amazing.
http://www.educalcool.qc.ca/en/e...nner/
index.html
Blood alcohol calculator.
Robert M:
22:17
And what time did eyewitness get nearly knocked over by the black man? No time tonight to check Kermit's timeline....
First item on to do list tomorrow.
Hi all,
What if the mobile call related to Meredith checking if anyone had accessed her bank account somehow if she had left her bank card hidden with her money in the draw.... and having found that both were missing?
That would make perfect sense and something I would do if I found that my wallet was missing?
If this is the case then I also think that at 10.17 confrontation and accusations happened?!?
Then from 10.20... what happened?
Fits in with Guede running out at 10.30, fully clothed and in a hurry!!
Rise and shine!
Welcome back Seattleite, Abdar and Traduco!
Skeptical Bystander | 02.17.08 - 2:28 am |"And what time did eyewitness get nearly knocked over by the black man?"
That's not "my" timeline, but rather "our" timeline (the one Xin was maintaining) with a couple of new items (Polish student ...). I stopped it on purpose, due to lack of time, with the victim's return to the cottage, plus noting TOD (as it stood in early January).
My intention was to do an "inhouse" timeline, but there was, and there still is little information (we have it all in the prior posts: possible call to mom, snack and wine, attack and new TOD).
I was going to do a post crime ppt too (first item: Rudy running out of house at 22:30 h.; second item: Rudy bumping into Alessandra F. a minute later. With a mention that in one of his versions - all?? - the "real" killers ran out of the house moments before he did). But again, no time.
I posted without refreshing. Love Wolf's items fit in fine with an "inhouse" timeline.
Hi Kermit,
Also if that is close to the actual timeline, then the DNA of Guede on the handbag would suggest retrieval of the mobiles before running off, not with him taking of the money out of the bag.
I do not think the motive of this crime was robbery nor was it rape/sexual...... But I think that the robbery was the catalyst for the events that followed.....
I would also be very interested to know what finger prints are is on the money that Amanda had in her possession..... not only fingers prints but any other substances....
LIES: Amanda told, and which she has not denied telling, she admitted to these lies. They are not the only lies
she has told, the other two, have their own registered brands of lying.
1/ LIE: claimed: She (Amanda) left cottage at 5pm last Thursday
2/ LIE: claimed: She returned only next morning when body Ms Kercher discovered
3/ LIE: changed story: claimed: She (Amanda) admitted had been at cottage Thursday evening.
4/ LIE: claimed: I'm very frightened of Patrick,
5/ LIE: claimed: She met Mr Lumumba evening of November 1
6/ LIE: claimed: She went back to her house.
7/ LIE: claimed: I don't remember if my friend Meredith was already there or whether she came later.
8/ LIE: claimed: What I can say is that the two of them (Meredith and Patrick) went off together.
9/ LIE: claimed: I can't remember how long they were in the bedroom together,
10/ LIE: claimed: I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming
11/ LIE: claimed: (she heard Meredith screaming) and I was so frightened
12/ LIE: claimed: I put my fingers in my ears.
13/ LIE: claimed: I don't remember anything after that,
14/ LIE: claimed: My head is really confused."
15/ LIE: claimed: She (Amanda) had lot to drink and had fallen asleep
16/ Lie: claimed: I'm not sure whether Raffaele was there too that evening but
17/ LIE: claimed: I do remember waking up at his house in his bed
18/ LIE: claimed: In the morning I went back to where I lived,
19/ LIE: claimed: I found the door open
20/ LIE: claimed: She (Amanda) said that he (Lumumba) had desired Meredith.
21/ LIE: claimed: He (Lumumba) had wanted to go to bed with her (Meredith)
22/ LIE: claimed: She had helped him to meet Meredith.
23/ LIE: claimed: Amanda said arranged to meet Lumumba at nearby basketball court about 8:30 p.m night of murder
24/ LIE: claimed: together they walked the short distance to the rental house
25/ LIE: claimed: Amanda and Patrick walked to the house to await Meredith's return from her night of pizza and a movie.
Post above about lying by me.
Michael.
Even if a person goes berserk and is real angry, if one consideres there is a first time for murder, I reckon the sdoing of the stabbing and then the immediate result, could be pretty shocking to the one that does the stabbing no matter how angry they were and still may be.
If Amanda did that stabbing, having never done it before, I think or can imagine her release of anger and its result would have been sufficient for her, as to discontinue. It's like the killing was a statement, it was about control, something about misplaced assertion, like some people who cannot talk well, resort to violence, when they can't get their way or points across.
Anon
If you replace Partick's name with that of Guede she was probably telling the truth from 20-25
As with Guede story and lies there is imbedded truths in much of it.... hinting at real events that night and the hours leading up to the tragic murder of Meredith.
I am also beginning the think that when Guede ran out of the apartment that he thought that the involvement of AK and possibly RS in the evening that he knew and was confident enough that they could not tell on him and would have to do the cleaning and cover up.... hence the code of silence....
Suppose AK meets RG, they go to AK’s place, MK returns and things get out of hand. With MK dead or dying RG runs, leaving AK to deal with the aftermath. If you invite a guest to your place and the guest ends up killing your housemate, I don’t see how you can be liable in any way. AK would be scared, but the moment RG was out of there the thing to do would be to yell help big time. That didn’t happen, why not? She gets RS involved (I’m assuming that prior to this he was not involved), telling him RG killed MK but would implicate her or whatever and they go into a bleach frenzy to get AK out of there, also creating as many false leads as they can think of while making no attempt to remove evidence of RG’s presence. AK going on about the shit in the toilet in succeeding days would be part of this, also the citing of HER male acquaintances as being MK’s which I think Kermit mentioned yesterday (apologies if it was someone else), possibly get some tissues from the bins nearby and place them at the scene to get some random DNA in the mix, and all the rest, culminating in implicating Patrick Lumumba as an act of desperation when LE was getting too close. Desperate times call for desperate measures. In other words seek to create as many avenues for investigation as possible and involve as many people as possible to throw LE off the scent. The problem with radiating so much ‘noise’ and ‘chatter’, is that AK can now be identified as being at the centre of it all, it all seems to lead back to her.
If RG had wielded the knife and left it at the scene, that is where it would have been found on the basis of the selective alteration/non-alteration of the scene. Why remove it?
The presumed murder weapon found at RS’s place: RS would have assumed traces of RG would be all over it because AK had told him RG killed MK…….therefore the only reason it was not left at the scene (at least in terms of AK’s story to RS, but maybe AK knew more than she was telling) was because it didn’t ‘belong’ there but at RS’s, it had to be cleaned and put back as it would potentially draw attention to both of them.
Even after bleaching, traces of two people remain on the knife, and RG isn’t one of them.
Good posting Nowo and also Anon (John T)
Nowo you hit a chord....
What if RS was not involved at all until the clean up in the belief that his Girlfriend of 2 weeks told him that it was not her fault and it was Guede but she was there and will get into lots of trouble if he does not help her?
He does appear to be a Daddy's boy and not world wise... you notice that not one friend has come to his defense to say what a 'great guy' he is and how it all is 180% from who he is (sorry to pinch that quote from the Knox camp). He I think is a loner and gullible enough to have fallen for it...... until he realised that he was also up to his neck in the fallout of sh*t created by the other 2.
That is why he changed the alibi to say that AK was not with him between 9pm and 1am, he knows the murder was committed at the time and whilst AK was not with him... he will I am sure not change his alibi, he has not got anything to gain but EVERYTHING to lose.
His DNA on the bra was a result of the framing, covering up and creating a smokescreen regarding what really happened.
I would be so much happier if RS would just come out hold his hands up and say what his role is...... Later he may not be able to do this.....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3385165.ece
have you guys heard? They are moving all 3 suspect to different high secruity prisons.
1. The report of Meredith having phoned her mother comes from La Reppublica, on 7th November, as is thus more reliable than if it came from elsewhere http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...rdo-
amanda.html
I translate: "The clarified circumstances state [imply] that the last person to hear Meredith’s voice before she encoutered the murderer(s) was her mother in England. MK phoned her at 21.30 on 1 November. She was at home, or at least she said that she was, where she had returned after dining with Sophie Purton... Most probably (the circumstance has not been verified) Meredith was alone at that moment. And only after some time was she joined by AK, RS and PL..."
If this is correct, RG’s stated arrival at 8.38 is a lie; and the cctv footage showing AK arriving at 8.45 is also wrong (which seems to be the case for other reasons).
If MK phoned her mother from the house, she is unlikely to have put the phone back in her handbag. Would she not have put it on a table, or next to her bed or somwhere like that?
3. As to the call made to the bank at 10.15, it would not surprise me if that was caused by someone pressing an automatic-dial button by mistake when trying to switch off her phone.
3. Why did MK have Filomena’s phone? There is a very interesting snippet in the first magistrates report. I quote the Daily Telegraph’s unhandy but on the whole accurate translation:
"In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment. In the course of the search it was ascertained that the door of the room which was used by Meredith Kercher, the other girl living in the apartment, was closed and locked and it was decided therefore to break down the door because Romanelli said it was strange that her friend Kercher could have both her telephones switched off, having lately used also the phone with the sim card stated [of Romanelli], and that the door should be closed. With the door opened there was a chilling scene in so far as the room was found in disorder with blood stains everywhere, on the ground and on the walls, and also under the duvet of the bed a foot could be seen. The agents, in order to avoid any pollution of the crime scene, stopped everyone from entering the room."
It was Romanelli’s phone, found in Sra Lana’s garden, that had led the postal police to the house in the first place. What on earth does the fact that that this phone had recently been used imply?? This is a big mystery if it’s true. Filomena is an important witness here.
4. The last sentence of the Telegraph piece is interesting. If the postal police stopped everyone from entering the room, AK could not have seen the body. The police may be covering themselves here, as I it would be most unlikely that no-one would have entered, if only to ascertain that whether the owner of the foot was dead or merely unconscious. But it is likely that one policeman would have done that, while the other stood guard. In any case, the testimony of the policemen, and of Filomena, who certainly seems to have been there when the door was broken down, is going to be crucial when assessing what AK could or could not have seen at that moment. The ILE clearly know that; thus their interrogation of people as to what Knox said the day after.
NB: the most important bits of evidence that we have all emerged during the first week, and then with the arrest of RG. Only by sifting these, in conjunction with reports of what the police are up to thereafter, can it be seen where the case is going. There is clearly going to be no more leaking until the official hearing on 1st April. There seems, in any case, more than enough evidence from early on to continue holding the suspects, and the ILE are not going to give anything away to defence lawyers until they are in a position to make formal charges.
Minotaur,
I think that the holding of 3 now in separate places means that they are not going anywhere after 1st April (i.e. released) they are in for the long haul until the court case.
It may be a message from the prosecution to say if you want to get out start telling something that resembles the truth..... likely to be hinted at RS who personally I think is guilty but not to the same level (of involvement) as the the other 2
Skep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Blo...alcohol_content
Blood content is .05 in Italy
Mushroom: There are two ways that the tiny portion of mushroom could have entered MK's oesophagus. Either it came up from her stomach; or it was on the point of the knife.
Time of death: If MK did phone her mother at 21.30 and if RG was seen running away at 22.30, that narrows the t.o.d, or at least the time of the assault, to one hour. The time of the (possibly accidental) call to the bank is also relevant.
Lalli: The most significant thing that Lalli leaked is that the cause of death was a combination of bleeding and asphyxia. The asphyxia implies that the oesophagus was indeed penetrated. It also means that the death could have been far more rapid than was described earlier: it takes ten minutes to drown in one's own blood, as opposed to an hour to bleed to death from a minor severed artery.
Lalli has been sacked for releasing, before time, a vital piece of evidence that helps establish the time of death. The suspects can now adjust their stories once again before they are charged. No wonder Mignini is cross!
Minotaur | 02.17.08 - 9:24 am |
Thanks for that review of early news items concerning the phones. There is so much information from early reporting that we either have forgotten or that we didn't think was important (or which we thought was important and now realise is just rumour), or we didn't know where to access it.
The Italian newspapers have many little details that I'm just now starting to go through. Case in point:
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/artic..._INITALIA&
npl=N
On the 3rd and 4th of November, Amanda exchanges 5 mobile phone short messages with "S.G.", a 26 year old foreign student in whom she had confided her feelings for Raffaele. S.G. told police he had last seen Amanda on Halloween night at 1.45 h on the steps of the cathedral. They (RS and AK) had an appointment with someone who they didn't name, to go watch a horror movie ((Kermit here: didn't I say a long time ago it rang a bell that in the hours or days before the crime I thought I had read AK and/or RS and/or RGH went to see some specific horror movie?)).
There was no further contact until Nov. 3 at 9.57 h. (the day after "discovery" by the Postal Police) ((English-to-Italian-to-English)) :
AK (9.57 h., Nov.3) : "My housemate was killed the night before last. I was the first to go home and call the police."
SG (11.28 h., Nov.3) : "I know. I saw the latest news. I wanted to call you ... is really shocking ... if you need a hug tell me so, sweety ((Kermit: careful ... English-Italian-English)), ok? ".
AK (11.30 h., Nov.3) : "Maybe later, thanks. Today I still have to speak a while with the police.
SG (18.19 h., Nov.4) : "What are you doing sweetie ((careful, double translation))?. I hope you are well, if you need anything call me. I am in the bar where you don't like having coffee."
AK (18:19 h., Nov.4) : "With the police in my house. I am very tired."
9.57...
My housemate was killed the night before last. I was the first to go home and call the police."
Another lie to add to the list John T / Michael...
Thanks for legal limit info for Italy. Same as in France. Pinecone's link to edu-alcool is interesting for calculating BA. Absorption of alcohol depends on height and weight, hence gender, food intake, rapidity of consumption, etc. I calculated mine for last night. I had two glasses of wine over a period of two hours, ending at 10 pm, and ate a leisurely dinner between 8:30 and 10:00. My reading came out at 0.59, which would have allowed me to drive in Seattle but not in Italy or France!
Re Minotaur:
"If MK phoned her mother from the house, she is unlikely to have put the phone back in her handbag. Would she not have put it on a table, or next to her bed or somwhere like that?
3. As to the call made to the bank at 10.15, it would not surprise me if that was caused by someone pressing an automatic-dial button by mistake when trying to switch off her phone."
I've been thinking about point 3 as well. It could very well be someone accidentally speed-dialing a number when trying to turn off the phone.
As for the likelihood of putting the cellphone back in her purse, I waver on that only because some people always put their vital items in one and the same place so as not to lose them. For example, I know people who always put their cellphones in their purse when not in use. Other people, like my husband, have to routinely call their cell from a landline in the house in order to locate it.
re the call to MK's bank. I've read that it lasted 15 seconds. That is too short a time to get into one's account, no? I'm leaning towards a misdial, too.
re nowo-- if AK was in the kitchen plugging her ears while RG was doing the deed to MK, and assuming the frenzy of post-massacre alibi discussion, when would RG have time to have a leisurely dump prior to running out the door and into a passer-by?
Lv2rgu | 02.17.08 - 1:03 pm |
Remember that in the photo I didn't include in the updated houseplan, there's RHG's evidence, in technicolour glory (thankfully the resolution is poor enough you can't make it out), with ample amounts of toilet paper. In other words, he had time to use the toilet at leisure and finish the associated paperwork. No getting scared part way through and having to run out with his pants around his ankles.
-
Exactly my point!
Lv2rgu | 02.17.08 - 1:03 pm |
Remember that there's a photo that I didn't include in the updated houseplan powerpoint, precisely of RHG' toilet evidence. In any case, it is thankfully low resolution. Of more interest than the evidence itself, is the fact that there are ample amounts of toilet paper in the toilet ... in other words, he had time to leave the evidence in leisure, and do all of the associated paperwork. I don't think he got scared halfway through for any reason, and had to leave with his pants around his ankles.
-
'ample amount of toilet paper'? Perhaps the dump was 'brisk'. Stop now!
From Minotaur:
"NB: the most important bits of evidence that we have all emerged during the first week, and then with the arrest of RG. Only by sifting these, in conjunction with reports of what the police are up to thereafter, can it be seen where the case is going. There is clearly going to be no more leaking until the official hearing on 1st April. There seems, in any case, more than enough evidence from early on to continue holding the suspects, and the ILE are not going to give anything away to defence lawyers until they are in a position to make formal charges."
This makes a whole lot of sense to me.
John T -
In regard to your timeline of lies/changed accounts...here are some additions (plus questions about them):
1. In certain account/s Amanda says she had a shower at the student house the morning after the murder (if so, 'which' shower?). Why did she require a shower that morning when she states later to police that she had a shower at RS's on the night of the murder? Especially as she also states remembering RS 'cleaning her ears' that night...clearly if true, she had a most thorough scrubbing. On planning this uneeded shower, why did she not abandon this plan...instead taking the shower in a house when it was clear something serious had happened and she was very frightened?
In certain account/s Amanda states she was frightened by what she saw at the house and went almost straight back outside not going back in (without having the shower).
Only one of the above can be true...making the other statement 'untrue' (a lie). I would like to know which is true. This is important...as someone 'did' have a shower at that house 'after' the murder...but the question I have is was taken in the morning after the murder....or on the night/early hours of the morning of the murder.
Both AK and RS (I believe both) claimed to have woke/got up a little after 10 am the morning after the murder. Bleach receipts show at least on of them got up earlier then this. Moreover, computer activity on RS's computer just after 5 am that same morning shows someone got up earlier still....'or' went to bed 'much' later then RS's stated 2 am...'or' did not go to bed at 'all' that night/morning.
2. In AK's/RS's statements Amanda left RS's the morning after the murder with an 'empty plastic bag' for 'dirty washing' of 'Amanda's' to be collected from her house. Yet...police on entry to the house on the day after the murder found/heard the washing machine ending its cycle. This would either negate the claim by RS/AK that an empty plastic bag was taken to the house...'or' suggest it was taken but for a 'different' purpose stated by the pair. Incidentally, why is Amanda faffing about doing washing in a house where she has found the front door open, seen blood...damage/disaray, Meredith's door closed/locked uncharacteristicaly and her room silent...the whole suggesting some serious incident/crime had taken place, that all may not be well with Meredith and an intruder may still potentially be on the premises (perhaps in Meredith's closed room)...all causing AK to be very frightened. Why did she wash her clothes together with Meredith's? Why was bleach added to the wash and it put on a high temp cycle? The bleach question cannot be explained by RS's supposed 'Bleach Fetish/Obsession' since AK did not share this 'Fetish' and RS was not present at this time, at least according to RS/AK. 'What'' bleach did Amanda use to add to the wash? Was it bleach already present at/belonging to the house or was it from the bleach purchased that morning? If it was the latter, why had Amanda taken bleach from RS's to the student house that morning, why did niether of them mention this in their accounts...and which of them purchased/owned the bleach? This line actually begs another question...was this bleach brought from 'RS's flat' or actually instead bought on the way to going to the student house? The latter obviously would move the time of leaving RS's flat and subsequent arrival at the student house to an earlier time that morning which would in turn raise some very important questions. If the beach came from the student house...then this adds even further to the 'volume' total of bleach used at the primary and secondary crime scenes. Finally, why did Amanda not phone the police on finding the house in this state?
3. In one account both AK and RS state that on finding the student house in such a sinister state a frightened Amanda walked all the way back to RS's to ask him what should be done (wouldn't that be obvious in any case?). Would it actually not have made more sense for Amanda to 'phone' RS for this advice (even whilst walking towards RS's if Amanda was afraid of remaining close to the house). Indeed:
In another of Amanda's accounts she did indeed phone RS from the house and waited outside for him to arrive.
Again, which of the above is true? One has to be false...'a lie'.
4. On the second day after the murder RS stated in a 40 minute interview with the Sunday Mirror reporter Kate Mandsey that on the night of the murder he and Amanda went a 'party' of a 'friend' of his (could this possibly be the 'suggested' party at the student house on the evening of the murder?). Amanda and he then returned to his flat where they remained for the restof the night, according to RS.
This account then changed to both RS/AK spending the whole evening together at RS's flat.
RS then changed his account to having spent the whole evening at his flat 'alone'
AK then made the infamous 'False Confession'...to actually being at the murder scene and is a witness to Patrick going into Meredith's room and 'hearing' the murder.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she cannot remember if RS was there also or not.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she was in another room of the house with 'RS' who 'was' there...and Patrick went off to Amanda's room.
5. During the aforementioned interview with Kate Mandsey, RS received an 'angry' phone call from a male speaking Italian...and an argument took place with the conversation ending abrubtly. When Kate Mandsey asked RS who it was on the phone RS replied 'Just a friend'. I believe, this was actually RS's father. Therefore RS's statement that it was a friend was a lie. This incident is not directly important to the case. It is however an example of RS lying (to someone he was keen to impress his 'honesty', good character and innocence), demonstrating telling lies are not a problem for him.
6. Amanda stated on the day of the murder she returned from RS's to the student house where she shared a meal and a chat with Meredith before Meredith left for her (last) evening gathering with friends. Amanda herself, according to her, then returned to RS's where she spent the rest of the day/evening with him. RS's account says this return home and meal with Meredith by Amanda could not have happened, since Amanda spent the 'whole' afternoon with him.
Again, only one of these statements can be true and the other has to be false 'a lie'.
7. RS wrote in his diary that on the day of the 31st October he went into Perugia with his face painted to pick up Amanda. They then immediately returned to his flat where they spent the remainder of the evening and night alone together.
In a later account he claims he spent the evening at a dinner with friends at one of their homes. This was to be used as the alibi put forward by the 'Smiling Team' to counter the testimony of the 'Albanian Superwitness' who claimed he was engaged by RS, AK and RG in a threatening argument close to the student house, at which time Amanda allegedly pulled out a knife and menaced him with it.
Again, only one account above given by RS, for the evening of the 31st Oct, can be true...the other has to be false 'a lie'.
John T -
In regard to your timeline of lies/changed accounts...here are some additions (plus questions about them):
1. In certain account/s Amanda says she had a shower at the student house the morning after the murder (if so, 'which' shower?). Why did she require a shower that morning when she states later to police that she had a shower at RS's on the night of the murder? Especially as she also states remembering RS 'cleaning her ears' that night...clearly if true, she had a most thorough scrubbing. On planning this uneeded shower, why did she not abandon this plan...instead taking the shower in a house when it was clear something serious had happened and she was very frightened?
In certain account/s Amanda states she was frightened by what she saw at the house and went almost straight back outside not going back in (without having the shower).
Only one of the above can be true...making the other statement 'untrue' (a lie). I would like to know which is true. This is important...as someone 'did' have a shower at that house 'after' the murder...but the question I have is was taken in the morning after the murder....or on the night/early hours of the morning of the murder.
Both AK and RS (I believe both) claimed to have woke/got up a little after 10 am the morning after the murder. Bleach receipts show at least on of them got up earlier then this. Moreover, computer activity on RS's computer just after 5 am that same morning shows someone got up earlier still....'or' went to bed 'much' later then RS's stated 2 am...'or' did not go to bed at 'all' that night/morning.
2. In AK's/RS's statements Amanda left RS's the morning after the murder with an 'empty plastic bag' for 'dirty washing' of 'Amanda's' to be collected from her house. Yet...police on entry to the house on the day after the murder found/heard the washing machine ending its cycle. This would either negate the claim by RS/AK that an empty plastic bag was taken to the house...'or' suggest it was taken but for a 'different' purpose stated by the pair. Incidentally, why is Amanda faffing about doing washing in a house where she has found the front door open, seen blood...damage/disaray, Meredith's door closed/locked uncharacteristicaly and her room silent...the whole suggesting some serious incident/crime had taken place, that all may not be well with Meredith and an intruder may still potentially be on the premises (perhaps in Meredith's closed room)...all causing AK to be very frightened. Why did she wash her clothes together with Meredith's? Why was bleach added to the wash and it put on a high temp cycle? The bleach question cannot be explained by RS's supposed 'Bleach Fetish/Obsession' since AK did not share this 'Fetish' and RS was not present at this time, at least according to RS/AK. 'What'' bleach did Amanda use to add to the wash? Was it bleach already present at/belonging to the house or was it from the bleach purchased that morning? If it was the latter, why had Amanda taken bleach from RS's to the student house that morning, why did niether of them mention this in their accounts...and which of them purchased/owned the bleach? This line actually begs another question...was this bleach brought from 'RS's flat' or actually instead bought on the way to going to the student house? The latter obviously would move the time of leaving RS's flat and subsequent arrival at the student house to an earlier time that morning which would in turn raise some very important questions. If the beach came from the student house...then this adds even further to the 'volume' total of bleach used at the primary and secondary crime scenes. Finally, why did Amanda not phone the police on finding the house in this state?
3. In one account both AK and RS state that on finding the student house in such a sinister state a frightened Amanda walked all the way back to RS's to ask him what should be done (wouldn't that be obvious in any case?). Would it actually not have made more sense for Amanda to 'phone' RS for this advice (even whilst walking towards RS's if Amanda was afraid of remaining close to the house). Indeed:
In another of Amanda's accounts she did indeed phone RS from the house and waited outside for him to arrive.
Again, which of the above is true? One has to be false...'a lie'.
4. On the second day after the murder RS stated in a 40 minute interview with the Sunday Mirror reporter Kate Mandsey that on the night of the murder he and Amanda went a 'party' of a 'friend' of his (could this possibly be the 'suggested' party at the student house on the evening of the murder?). Amanda and he then returned to his flat where they remained for the restof the night, according to RS.
This account then changed to both RS/AK spending the whole evening together at RS's flat.
RS then changed his account to having spent the whole evening at his flat 'alone'
AK then made the infamous 'False Confession'...to actually being at the murder scene and is a witness to Patrick going into Meredith's room and 'hearing' the murder.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she cannot remember if RS was there also or not.
In another variation of this account Amanda states she was in another room of the house with 'RS' who 'was' there...and Patrick went off to Amanda's room.
5. During the aforementioned interview with Kate Mandsey, RS received an 'angry' phone call from a male speaking Italian...and an argument took place with the conversation ending abrubtly. When Kate Mandsey asked RS who it was on the phone RS replied 'Just a friend'. I believe, this was actually RS's father. Therefore RS's statement that it was a friend was a lie. This incident is not directly important to the case. It is however an example of RS lying (to someone he was keen to impress his 'honesty', good character and innocence), demonstrating telling lies are not a problem for him.
6. Amanda stated on the day of the murder she returned from RS's to the student house where she shared a meal and a chat with Meredith before Meredith left for her (last) evening gathering with friends. Amanda herself, according to her, then returned to RS's where she spent the rest of the day/evening with him. RS's account says this return home and meal with Meredith by Amanda could not have happened, since Amanda spent the 'whole' afternoon with him.
Again, only one of these statements can be true and the other has to be false 'a lie'.
7. RS wrote in his diary that on the day of the 31st October he went into Perugia with his face painted to pick up Amanda. They then immediately returned to his flat where they spent the remainder of the evening and night alone together.
In a later account he claims he spent the evening at a dinner with friends at one of their homes. This was to be used as the alibi put forward by the 'Smiling Team' to counter the testimony of the 'Albanian Superwitness' who claimed he was engaged by RS, AK and RG in a threatening argument close to the student house, at which time Amanda allegedly pulled out a knife and menaced him with it.
Again, only one account above given by RS, for the evening of the 31st Oct, can be true...the other has to be false 'a lie'.
The most significant thing that Lalli leaked is that the cause of death was a combination of bleeding and asphyxia. Minotaur | 02.17.08 - 9:58 am
Some of us figured this out without Lalli's help. I've caught hell in various forums for saying Meredith's death likely occurred within 10 minutes of the fatal stab. I was disappointed that other commenters seemed to not realize the importance of Van Zandt's disclosure about the fatal wound, with regard to length of time to mortality.
******
I'd like to know more about Meredith's throat wounds. Even though the carotid artery was not severed, the esophagus/trachea could have been damaged. This would result in her aspirating and/or swallowing blood. Pinecone | 12.06.07 - 12:19 am
Minotaur, I enjoy your organized comments. They help bring everything together on this new thread.
Pinecone,
What are your thoughts about the blood alcohol count that was revealed in Lalli's report?
What are your thoughts about the blood alcohol count that was revealed in Lalli's report?
Skeptical Bystander | 02.17.08 - 2:21 pm | #
The blood alcohol content could be valuable in determining time of death, if it were known how much she drank at what time.
From fiddling around with the calculator and guessing Meredith's weight, it appears that if she had a meal at her friends' place, with no alcohol, and had a glass of wine at home (around 2130), then her BAC could have been in the neighborhood of 43 around 2200-2230.
Not saying that's what happened, just a possibility.
Pinecone,
Thanks. That's exactly the reading I got fiddling around with the parameters on the link you provided last night.
Love Wolf -
"What if RS was not involved at all until the clean up in the belief that his Girlfriend of 2 weeks told him that it was not her fault and it was Guede but she was there and will get into lots of trouble if he does not help her?"
Doesn't float in my view.
If RS was simply involved in the 'Clean-Up' and his given account is a lie all driven by a desire to protect Amanda then it has failed totally in that purpose as his current alibi does not tally with Amanda's making both appear to be guilty of lying. He actually made things 'worse'...by changing his original account which 'did' tally with Amanda's supporting her alibi and by default allowing her alibi to also support his. As a result, the majority do not believe Amanda's current alibi, his current alibi...and he admitted his first account to be false. If his aim is protect Amanda he has failed miserably. He and Amanda as things stand 'now' face a serious chance of conviction. If he merely took part in a clean-up to protect, in his view, an innocent Amanda the best and only course of action he can take, which would have been the case almost from the beginning, is to 'tell' that story. It is more believable then either's current story and the worst that could happen is he is not believed...which is the case currently in anyway.
The same applies if the above 'protection' of Amanda was the intent up to a certain time...and he is now concerned with saving his own skin.
The same also applies if he has since changed his mind regarding the innocence of Amanda at some point.
The fact that he is not offering up a confession to taking part in the Clean-Up with an explanation of 'why' he took part in it flies in the face of that being the true scenario, especially as if he did so it would also enable Amanda to change her account to the 'true' version enabling their testimony to support each other once again, and offer a credible explanation of why they lied. Instead, he sticks to the story nobody believes and helps niether of them. This suggests to me that the scenario mooted did not happen.
"He and Amanda as things stand 'now' face a serious chance of conviction."
Perhaps, but the odds are not as serious as they would be if there was more forensic evidence. And the defense teams may succeed in discrediting what little forensic evidence there is so far.
The other thing the prosecution will need to convict the two is a credible motive. Group sex turned violent doesn't make sense and neither does robbery.
Michael thanks for your thoughts and you have swung me to your way of thinking.
Daniel agree with you regarding the evidence piece but I think...
1) Prosecution are holding a few 'aces' up there slieve, still to be revealed
2) I also think that AK was seen moving around that night and that testimony would hold up.
3) The cleaning effort and the bleach.. the materials at his flat (receipts and bloody rag) is not something that can be talked away....
4) Alibis and story both on the night and the morning afterwards - especially if they had not alerted the police and it was only due to the postal police arriving otherwise.....
Chris M must know something that none of is do regarding evidence and alibis because the 3 of them are guilty of something very serious and are up to it to their necks..... and I think that moving them to 3 new higher security prisons is the authorities was of saying "you ain't going nowhere in the short-term'
They all may be guilty, I don't know, but the prospect of convictions is another matter. True, the early a.m. bleach receipts and other clean-up evidence at RS's flat seem damning. So do the mismatched alibis, but as Robert M pointed out, the alibi statements may be struck if the interrogation is deemed inadmissable.
The police may indeed have some forensic "aces up their sleeves" but I'm wondering why they haven't put them on the table yet. They've released or leaked other evidence findings, particularly on RG. And they were eager to release the emergence of the witness who ran his car into the dumpster the night before the murder, which isn't exactly an ace.
By the way, can anyone provide links to reports on the bleach receipts and bloody rags? If the rags found at RS's place had Meredith's blood on them, I would agree that is very strong evidence. Have there been reports that specify the blood as meredith's?
Re Minotaur: "As to the call made to the bank at 10.15, it would not surprise me if that was caused by someone pressing an automatic-dial button by mistake when trying to switch off her phone."
Have been thinking about this one:
1. Whether or not that number was on speed-dial is something that can be ascertained by examining her cellphone.
+
2. Speaking only for myself, although someone else here mentioned it, I would not put my bank on speed-dial, even though accessing my account would require an account number.
+
3. Could it have been one of the last called numbers on her cell's recent calls list, and thus somehow got punched in by someone turning off the cellphone? (Do we know whether she called her mum or her mum called her?)
+
4. Didn't the postal police turn up with two cellphones, one belonging to Filomena?
'ample amount of toilet paper'? Perhaps the dump was 'brisk'. Stop now!
nowo | 02.17.08 - 1:28 pm | #
If it was really caused by a spicey kebab... if he really sat there for the length of a few songs... it could have been a diarrhea problem. This would not rule out using paper, then remaining on the toilet for the next wave. Hey, you guys started it!
I'm not saying I believe this is how it happened, just that it's still a possibility.
The other thing the prosecution will need to convict the two is a credible motive. Group sex turned violent doesn't make sense and neither does robbery.
daniel mintz | 02.17.08 - 3:51 pm |
This brings up the possibility that the death was an unintentional outcome of a conflict that escalated.
also the citing of HER male acquaintances as being MK’s which I think Kermit mentioned yesterday ---nowo
This has often been mentioned as if it were a way for AK to say something false about MK. It's also possible, however, and I think probable, that AK didn't really know much about MK's other friends, or even care. AK was immersed in her own social interactions which seems to be centered around finding men and doing drugs, while MK's seems more like group outings with her friends. AK couldn't really know all the men MK knew, since they were not doing things together much, so she listed the ones that she herself brought home, and knew that MK had met there in the house.
Michael
In response to your points
1/ I don't think she took a shower, at the crime scene.
a) According to what she said, she was scared, then based on that, I would imagine she wouldn't have felt relaxed about having a shower there, even if she took it in the bathroom where no blood was visible.
b) Not based on her story but on what I think: She did not go to the house in the way she states, because she was involved in the murder one way or another, her perspective would have been, Meredith is lying dead in her room, no time for shower.
The priority was cleaning up/covering up.
They obviously didn't go to bed or wake up when they said, I reckon they didn't sleep a wink and to me that is how they appear on the morning in the aftermath of the slaughter, and I've been an insomniac or night hawk enough so I know how people can look.
The sleep and wake up times are lies I think. The early morning visit to the store to buy bleach says what they said there about sleeping and getting up is yet another set of lies.
2/ a) The plastic bag: I would say because they lied about the rest, that the plastic bag if there was one, would have been going to the house, not to pick up dirty laundry but to put anything in that had to be gotten out of the way.
Doing washing belonging to Meredith doesn't fit with the things said by reliable witnesses, like Meredith's friends, who have absolutely no motives at all to be "doing a Ms Knox" and trying to frame innocent peiople, Amanda and Meredith did not get on *(after a while).
Meredith lived there first, Amanda came to live there, but then did not do any household chores, not putting the trash out, not flushing the toilet and the other important irritation/thing Meredith had fears about, the bringing of various men into the house, was the cause of that conflict.
Meredith waking up, going to the kitchen and yet another stranger stood there making tea and like: Oh hi who are you?
The only reason, I can see, for Amanda doing Meredith's washing, was as part of the covering up of evidence. They were there, cleaning up early, they had been up all night most probably thinking what the hell to do and how, they went out as soon as the store opened bought bleach and that would have been when they both went over to the house, early, before anyone might come back, they had to work hard. That would be too why instead of being in the house when the Communications Special Police Group (Polizia Postale) arrived they were out in the back yard, of course, who'd want to be in the house where you know someone is lying dead in a pool of blood and you'd had everything to do with it? It was bad enough for them to have to be confronted with what they'd done and to have to clean up the carnage they'd produced on the darkest night of their lives a few hours before from which they'd had no break, no sleep. That's why, as Amanda truthfully stated, she was exhausted, yeah they both looked it, that's true.
b) The bleach was added obviously to try to wipe any signs/markers to what had gone on. Anyone knows bleach is heavy duty business.
c) The bleach they used? I would say some of that what they purchased early that morning, Amanda's might not have known if there would be bleach at the house.
d) the amount of bleach - I would imagine that most bleach would have been used in the house where the murder took place, there would not be a whole lot they needed to hide at Raffaele's home, but just to be sure, they gave Raffaele's place a clean sweep too.
The one thing I believe Amanda said that is true is about being exhausted, two apartments to clean, up all night, back and forward, terrified of what you'd done, gotten yourself into and terrified that someone would return home (unexpectedly) surely they would not have knifed them (him her) up too?
3/ I would imagine they didn't call the police because they hadn't found a crime scene they'd created the scene, they didn't call because they were still busy cleaning, they'd have called the police ONLY when they were ready, if at all. They may have planned to go back to Raffaele's and then leave the front door open and hope someone reported it so they could act out as if they knew nothing.
4/ a) The way we all use phones now yes, it is reasonable to think that anyone would, already walking along, phone, when it's an urgent matter.
b) She didn't rush back over there, is what I think, because, as Raffaele stated, it may well have been late at night when either she went to his house or they both did. Therefore, she had no blood to discover, no open door to find, no signs of a break-in to be freaked out about, because it was only Amanda herself and Raffaele trying to break out of a murder case they'd invented, somehow, along with Guede.
5/ I don't think it was the party at the home of Meredith and Amanda, because I don't believe there was any such party there.
That would have been a party somewhere in Perugia but not at home. They might have been to a party, for a few hours. Raffaele may have gone home and Amanda may have had an arrangement with Guede, where instead of the things she said, applying to Lumumba, they applied instead to Guede, where Amanda tried to set Guede up with Meredith, with Meredith knowing a thing about it.
6/ The lunch with Meredith, according to Amanda, I think, was a thing, a statement Amanda made, to try to sound convincing about Meredith and Amanda being good friends. They may have beeen before, sort of friends, but it went wrong when the irritations and disagreements took place, the worst one, being Meredith's angst for having strangers, men ones, roaming about in her abode.
7/ One must consider that not having to make immediate statements, any statements coming out by any of the defendants - as long as they do what their lawyers tell them and advise them to do - are statements made in full calculation, not off the cuff, but solid statements where they cannot get tripped up over, that's what lawyers do, study anything before it is released, the object of the exercise being not to incriminate the defendants any further than they already incriminated themselves already, either through guilt leaving a trail of evidence or plain stupidity and ignorance of procedure. The ignorance of proceduree does not mean that what a defendant says is all innocent it just means they give themselves away more easily, if they are guilty.
Typo *
5/ I don't think it was the party at the home of Meredith and Amanda, because I don't believe there was any such party there.
That would have been a party somewhere in Perugia but not at home.
They might have been to a party, for a few hours.
Raffaele may have gone home and Amanda may have had an arrangement with Guede, where instead of the things she said, applying to Lumumba, they applied instead to Guede, where Amanda tried to set Guede up with Meredith, *without Meredith knowing a thing about it.
If it was really caused by a spicey kebab
it could have been a diarrhea problem
After all his years in Italy he should have learned something from the Italians - always carry a few wine corks.
Clint, who spent 25 years with the FBI as a onetime supervisor in the Behavioral Science Unit, known as the Profilers, is an analyst for NBC News
One wound was under Meredith's chin and Clint Van Zandt the FBI expert on Behavioural Science stated this is somnone stood in front of Meredith, sticking the knife under her chin and saying, Listen here, I'm angry, I'm serious, I'll kill you.
He also stated, no, in no way was it a game of any kind, Meredith suffered a most awful death, the blood of her hand indicating how after the knife had gone in one side of her throat and out of the other had grabbed her own neck and had also stumbled trying to steady herself. She had laid on her back but the wound was not all she suffered because she choked to death.
Zandt had access to the Italian findings and called the police good police. His opinion is that it is more than likely thought that one of the suspects will start talking.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The one perhaps most likely to talk, will be, probably (I think), the one who did the least, I expect if the prosecution has an idea of which person that is, who is actually not the main defendant, they'll try to somehow get around that person.
They might have been to a party, for a few hours. John T | 02.17.08 - 7:14 pm |
In this case, there would be witnesses to this, who wouldn't mind speaking up because it's not related to the murder.
When the possible party at the house is mentioned, it may be a very small party. I'm partial to the idea it was just the four of them there that night, and that eating, drinking, and drugs (for the three) may have been a part of it. Maybe that's not a party, but it could have started out cordially. The wine MK consumed may indicate this... or she drank it alone, as someone has already suggested.
He also stated, no, in no way was it a game of any kind, Meredith suffered a most awful death, the blood of her hand indicating how after the knife had gone in one side of her throat and out of the other had grabbed her own neck and had also stumbled trying to steady herself. She had laid on her back but the wound was not all she suffered because she choked to death. John T | 02.17.08 - 7:26 pm |
It's good to remember these few sentences always.
Yesterday Raffaele Sollecito, boyfriend of Amanda Knox, Ms Kercher's flatmate, denied all knowledge of Mr Guede.
But it emerged that Ms Knox in testimony to the police before her arrest had mentioned Mr Guede as one of a number of people who had visited her flat in the past.
Mr Guede has admitted having visited the flat.
Giacomo Silenzi, downstairs neighbour, bass guitar player, played bass while Amanda played guitar.
Giacomo said: "She (Amanda) started coming down to our flat almost from the start when we hardly knew each other."
Giacomo became Meredith's boyfriend.
One guy who came to the house was tall, thin and he always wore basketball shoes and baggy trousers. He was nicknamed Body Roga (Guede)."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Going on this I fimnd it hard to believe that Knox and Guede did not know one another.
They both frequented the apartment downstairs where the four men lived.
In an off-camera interview with ABC News, Sollecito's father, Francesco Sollecito, blamed Knox for the entire situation. "She has ruined my son's life," Sollecito's father said. "I damn the day he met her."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why so forceful and resolute?
If taking into acount his son is accused innocently, then how is it that he could make up his mind that Amanda on the otrher hand is so bad?
To me, it points towards sonny boy Sollecito having told his dad things that he tells nobody else.
God knows how he has done that though, seeing as he will be aware of bugging and lack of rights to privacy being a main suspect in a murder case.
I don't know if it is permitted to bug appointments a defendant has with a lawyer. I don't think that is permitted, no lawyer would accept that. There would be no point in having a lawyer.
Guede said that Knox was not in the house on the night
Guede said she went into Amanda's room, saying that she was always smoking drugs
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If Amanda wasn't home how could Meredith have gone into her room to tell her anything?
I think what is untrue here is the bit where Guede said Amanda was not at home.
I think she was at home and I think it's possible Meredith did go to Amanda but I don't think Rudy was in Meredit'hs room as a guest.
By all reliable accounts Meredith didn't operate that way.
Meredith to Giacomo her boyfriend who didn't want to leave her when he went to visit his family:
You go, I will wait for to you here"
Meredith's LAST words to her boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi when he left to visit his parents.
Giacomo Silenzi:
"My stomach dropped - I just could not believe it. I had spoken with her for the last time just a couple of days earlier and she had sent me a text saying she was looking forward to me coming back.
"When I got to Perugia station, the police picked me up and took me to the police station.
"I had a cast-iron alibi because I had been at my parents' house since the Monday - it was a bank holiday in Italy. I was taken to a waiting room and Amanda was there.
"She hugged me and said how sorry she was. Then she introduced me to her boyfriend Raffaele. I had never met him before.
"I couldn't help thinking how cool and calm Amanda was. Meredith's other English friends were devastated and I was upset, but Amanda was as cool as anything and completely emotionless.
"Her eyes didn't seem to show any sadness and I remember wondering if she could have been involved.
"I spoke with her English friends Robyn [Butterworth] and Sophie [Purton] afterwards, and they said the same thing. None of us could quite understand how she was taking it all so calmly.
"I knew that Amanda didn't get on with Meredith, but I didn't think that would lead to Amanda killing her."
He said all of Meredith's friends had red eyes from crying and were very upset, except for Amanda, who was emotionless, everyone noticed it.
Newly graduated Raffaele ("Dottore"), as we knew, has been moved to a prison in Terni. This article states that investigators have decided to move Amanda to the Rebibbia Prison (which, I believe is Rome's largest)in the next few days.
Guede is ALSO scheduled to be moved to a yet ANOTHER unnamed prison.
No reason has been offered for the prison transfers, not even to the defense attorneys, who report being caught off-guard by news of the transfers.
http://qn.quotidiano.net/2008/
02...ito_terni.shtml
Guede said she went into Amanda's room, saying that she was always smoking drugs
If Amanda wasn't home how could Meredith have gone into her room to tell her anything? John T | 02.17.08 - 7:49 pm |
I think he meant that she went into AK's room and told HIM that AK was always using drugs. But I agree that AK was there, and RG is lying about that.
KNOX SAID: "We had only been together a short time, but we had a DEEP BOND
Even in the police station, we supported each other, trying to give each other courage, both stunned by the tragedy of Meredith's ABSURD death
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Absurd?
Isn't it sad, tragic, devastating, horrific, brutal? Yes.
Absurd?
No, absurd no, it isn't.
Absurd is: when a person tells lies that are so bad that if they were ever believed the falsely accused might end up with a sentence of life imprisonment. That is absurd as well as horrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Amanda Knox said: And I often think that if I had been home that night perhaps I would be dead, too
Shouldn't that be:
And I often think that if I had been home that night perhaps I could have saved her?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
KNOX SAID: "We had only been together a short time, but we had a DEEP BOND
DEEP BOND
She said she had not asked her boyfriend, Sollecito, to provide her with an alibi, and instead said that at one point, she recalls him with "BLOOD ON HIS HANDS".
However, she said she thought it was blood from a fish they had cooked for dinner
DEEP BOND
Knox, in turn, has alleged to police that Sollecito was a user of "cocaine and acid in the past, even if he now says he only smokes weed" and that "he is often depressed and sad".
Extracts from Amanda Knox's handwritten note, made on the evening of Nov 6, the day she was arrested:
DEEP BOND
After dinner I noticed blood on his hands, but I had the impression that the blood came from the fish. I have serious doubts about the truth of my statements because they were made under stress and shock, and I was exhausted.
DEEP BOND
“This could have happened: Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped her and killed her and then, having come back home, pressed my fingerprints — I was asleep — onto the knife,” she says.
DEEP BOND
She speculates that he then washed off the blood. Investigators have found traces of Knox’s DNA near the handle of a knife found in Sollecito’s home, and of Kercher’s on the blade.
DEEP BOND
“But if that’s how things went, I don’t understand why Raffaele did it,” Knox writes
Why doesn't anyone ever mention Giacomo's comment reported in Times Online November 7.
At the weekend it emerged that blood had also been found in the rented house on the hill below the cottage, which was empty at the time of the murder. Giacomo Silenzi, 22, one of four Italian students renting the house, said he had given the keys to Ms Kercher because "one of our cats had a damaged ear and we asked her to look after it while we were away".
He said his impression was that Ms Knox and Ms Kercher had been good friends. "Of all the people in their house they got on best together." he said. "Amanda was always outgoing. She started coming down to our flat almost from the start when we hardly knew each other. Sometimes she brought us cakes she had made. Other times she asked me to play music with her I play bass and she had just begun playing the guitar. She loved music, especially the Beatles."
Asked if Amanda Knox took hard drugs Mr Silenzi said: "I really don’t think so. At most a couple of joints and some alcohol."
FYI, Some sobering info. about Amanda's new prison in Rome..
I found this article discussing the Female Division of Rebibbia Prison, described by a "Panorama" magazine contributer/regional politician Peppe Mariani as "Hell on Earth."
The writer's impression of the prison after his 2005 visit was one of "pure horror." He writes that the prison is exploding (more than 400 female inmates in a space that should only hold 270 women.) Of note is that more than half of the female prison population is foreign. Chinese, Africans, "and they only speak their own language." There are no translators available, claims Mariani.
The prison is understaffed and employees work shifts that are brutally long. Requisite services are not available, resulting in "pain, rage, deprssion and explosions of violence."
The health situation is "devastating" in the "Rebebbia Female Hell." Many inmates are addicts or prostitutes who live unknowingly with illness; often they are diagnosed for the first time in prison.
The number of cases of contagious diseases are increasing exponentially. And the conditions are so poor that the ongoing risk is very high.
Interestingly the inmates are immigrants, drug addicts or, elderly according to Mariani, they are NOT big-time criminals, he says.
Hard to understand, therefore, the reasoning behind the decision to transfer Amanda to this place.
http://www.ildue.it/Temi/Donne/
P...PrimoPiano=1594
I think he meant that she went into AK's room and told HIM that AK was always using drugs. But I agree that AK was there, and RG is lying about that.
Sparrow | 02.17.08 - 8:07 pm | #
^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>
Do you mean that you think Rudy was in AK's room?
What I thought he meant was both things that he said, but that he is such a bad liar he made two tales up that contradict one another without even realizing it.
Get me?
You just did. We're all different, and in sifting through the quotes and evidence, which are sometimes contradictory, different things will jump out as significant to different people.
seattleite | 02.17.08 - 8:43 pm | #
^>^>^>^>^>^^>^^>^^>^>^>^^>^>^>^>
The blood downstairs was from Giacomo's wounded cat, which Meredith was looking after too while he wrent home to his parents on the coast where he came from.
Sorry, let me repeat that:
Why doesn't anyone ever mention Giacomo's comment reported in Times Online November 7. seattleite | 02.17.08 - 8:43 pm | #
You just did. We're all different, and in sifting through the quotes and evidence, which are sometimes contradictory, different things will jump out as significant to different people.
Sparrow | 02.17.08 - 8:53 pm |
seattleite | 02.17.08 - 8:43 pm | #
>^^>^>^^>^>^>^>^>^>^>>^>^>^>^>^>^>
ÔOpa, sorry, I see, yes, the cat you knew about.
But, they may have been friends but that changed, as far as Meredith's friends knew about.
Do you mean that you think Rudy was in AK's room?
What I thought he meant was both things that he said, but that he is such a bad liar he made two tales up that contradict one another without even realizing it.
Get me?
John T | 02.17.08 - 8:52 pm | #
I'm not sure if I get you JT, but I'll give it a try. I think you meant that two lies contradict each other, 1. that AK wasn't there, and 2. that MK went into AK's room (to tell her something.
First I think Rudy is always mixing lies with truth. I think AK was there. But I don't think his story here shows a contradiction. He said that MK opened her drawer and found her money missing. When she goes into AK's room, I imagine that it's not to talk to AK (in his lie), but it is to look for her missing money, and yes that Rudy is following MK as she's talking.
In reference to: Traduco | 02.17.08 - 8:52 pm |
Wow, I wonder if Amanda's parents will try to prevent the move. Maybe they can contact the American Embassy in Italy for help. However if this is normal procedure in Italy well they might not get too far.
Hard to understand, therefore, the reasoning behind the decision to transfer Amanda to this place
Traduco | 02.17.08 - 8:52 pm |
>^>^^>^>^>^>^>^^>^>^>^>^>^>^^>^>^>
Maybe that have to make them understand it isn't a holiday camp they are in.
The prison in Perugia is new too, so those descriptions about grim, don't seem accurate.
Grim is like those old prisons, like they have, for one, in Britain, where they used to hang people up on the front gates, old Victorian prisons that people commit suicide in on a regular basis because the set-up is so cruel and grim.
Where people come out far worse than they ever were, where immediately anyone who may have committed a minor offense will be getting first-hand info from people who choose a life of crime stating I can do the time so I am going to do the crime.
Rehabilitaion, I don't think so.
Many become institutionalized, and unable to function in the real world.
Rome isn't all great, I've lived there. It's well known how pleasant people are in Bologna, in Assissi, in all of Perugia, but in Rome, it's different it's a huge city, I imagine prison is not going to have any of the country pleasantries that Perugia has simply because of location and country air and atmosphere.
Terni is near Rome, I had a friend there, it isn't one of the loveliest places, but it isn't as big as Rome of course.
Traduco,
Could it be that the move is simply to facilitate visits for Amanda's parents, since they will no longer have to make the added trip from Rome to Perugia to see their daughter. There's certainly a direct flight from Seattle to Rome.
indie | 02.17.08 - 9:04 pm
It's normal most everywhere Indie.
When you are in prison you dfo'nt get to dictate what is what.
Not even if it inconveniences your visits, hard luck is how it goes, you are not on holiday is the theme.
In Britain a operson may be hundreds of miles away, it depends on where there is space available, it depends if a prisoner is at risk iof being harmed by other prisoners as is the case for people who tell on their co-defendants or tell on someoneoutside or for sex offenders who prisoners see as the lowest scum there is.
Those types of defendants have to be protected, the protection sees them breing put into true hell, locked away Their food spat in, if those ion the kitchens get the chance ore even urinated in a large pan, absolutely anything.
If a person goes unattended to the shower and is seen as a real baddy like a sex offender, then those people who are hreavy duty thugs, professional criminals will beat the hell out of them, even up until death. Boiling hot water with a kilo of sugar in it thrown in their face.
So those people have to be sectioned and kept on a safe wing of a prison, they ca'nt move about and take part in the things ordinary prisoners can.
Someone who had told on a co-defendant may find him or herself locked up with a child killer.
The prosecution is not playing games, Meredith was most brutally murdered there are some who seem to think it is a game like writing a story called 'My Prison' is reflective of someone who is not quite tuned in to what is what, it is in no way Amanda's prison, she doesn't run anything, she is a prisoner.
The prosecution wants the defendants to tell the truth whatever the truth is, and, they want one (or all) of them to start talking.
They will not do that if they imagine they're on a world cruise, but don't realize there isn't a boat, yet, if there was, it is definitely sinking for them.
Cripple Creek Ferry.
It's a mighty tide.
The ship is going down it's too late to find another one
The deckhands, one of them must mutiny
Whoever the captain is, someone has to reveal.
Traduco,
Could it be that the move is simply to facilitate visits for Amanda's parents
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
No way Jose
Spaarow
Just trying to find that again where I read it Sparrow
I think you might be right as it would make no sense at all and he'd have to be dead slow to say such contradictory things.
I mean he already does tell lies that compete for first prize along with those from Amanda but, I was sure he said Meredith went and said to Amanda, but second thoughts that can't be right.
Yet, in real life without the lies, I think it is true, could be, because nothing is how those three describe, so, Amanda was there, Meredith was there and Guede was there. That's my gut feeling after studying all of the info.
I'll get back to you on that one.
Traduco, Indie, Skep -
I don't think the prison moves are anything to really worry about...I 'very' much doubt any of them will be put in general population, they'll be segregated. They are high profile prisoners and that makes them targets for other prisoners. Being such high profile prisoners the ILE/italian prison authourities can't/won't risk any 'accidents' happening to them. The resulting political fallout would be far too great. They also wouldn't want them learning any new tricks from other prisoners.
Seattlite and Sparrow,
As for Giacomo's two seemingly contradictory statements, to be fair we HAVE mentioned both here at various times. But the bottom line is that they do contradict one another to some extent, and he apparently said both things. Do we have to reject one and not the other? On what basis would we do that? What did he say to the police, and how does it differ from or compare to what he has said to the press?
Also, are these translations of his words or did he utter them himself in English? I think this could be important. If they are translations, they might be bad ones. I'm a translator; believe me, bad translations are quite common. Newspapers in particular tend not to pay well and basically get what they pay for in terms of quality and reliability.
This is just one more source of complexity in this case.
Anon (are you a new anon or an old anon?):
I think you're right on the money there.
Pretty sure the quote I posted has not appeared before. What I do with them (contradictory news items) is realize these are news people taking impressions and a couple of words and writing a novel. I don't give them too much weight.
Seattlite,
I've certainly seen it before, and I'm pretty sure others here have to. I don't think it has been deliberately ignored by everyone, if that's what you're getting at.
My own feeling is that what matters is what these peripheral players have actually said to the investigators and what that will say under oath. The rest is speculation or food for thought and can't be verified.
It's a wait and see thing. This guy does, after all, have a view, and the question is whether or not it will be important.
I think the translators were no better than what you got with the tabs....I think it's a mess
Skep: You may have read it in the Times Online but I have never seen it quoted and that was indeed what I was getting at.
Abdar: I am a document person. I deal in transcripts, depositions forensic reports etc. albeit on the civil law side (I repeat I am a tech type not a lawyer) Newspaper articles in general give me a pain.
Sparrow,
RG stated that he and Meredith arrived at the cottage at 8:38 pm. This cannot be a true fact because Meredith left her friends at 9:00 pm. The short walk to the cottage would take at least 15 minutes give or take. So RG's statement is a lie and the only way that he would get into the cottage was via AK who had the key. I do not believe for a moment that Meredith would have had any kind of intimate behavior with RG. She was on her period I believe.
JohnT,
The cellphones of both RS and AK were turned off simultaneously at around 8:45 pm or so, which is not just a coincidence. They were together. RS's DNA has been found on the brassiere of Meredith Kercher. Additionally, he has no alibi to speak of really. He missed his Father's telephone call and the personal text message as well. Both his cellphone and that of AK were both turned on in the early morning I believe. JohnT, RS was a willing participant, I assure you.
I think the Newspaper articles in this case have given many a pain. My eyes have been opened and I can say that I really don't trust anything I read or hear in the press anymore. I see all the post that say lies, lies lies but then I know that they are refering to lies....or white lies....either way, to re-create this crime based on the printed information is just a waste of time...
Just out of curiosity, why do you think the phones were turned off (if they were turned off)...?
Seattlite,
I think you're being a little unfair lumping everyone in one bag, but that's okay. The point I'm making is a different one, about what may turn out to be true and what false.
The press is not all bad, though. In fact, it is an important part of the system of checks and balances.
Abdar,
There are good and bad translators. I think you're being a little unfair there.
This translator has work to do.
Abdar:
If they were turned off and that seemed odd when I read that, they were in the movies, a concert, were at home and didn't want to be disturbed. Or like me I will turn it off when I am expecting a call from someone I do not want to talk to.
The phone records with an assist from the PMK (person most knowledgeable from the phone companies) will answer if it happened or why it could have looked like it happened or exactly when it did happen.
I am not saying that all are bad. I am refering to the potential that the ones used for Amanda's interrogation may not have been of use. If you think about the amount of english writings that have been used that everyone quotes as Amanda's words....you have to wonder why they required her to write things in english.
Interpretation of the english language takes one hell of an expert and I think that Perugia most likely lacked this.
I don't think it will ever matter. Frank over at PS said that the statements are not admissable.
Abdar,
I do not know the answer to that. The fact is, that they were both turned off the same time during the night of the murder and were turned on during the morning after the murder. There is nothing one can draw about that really except for one thing.
It gives neither AK nor RS a corroborative alibi. And that is important to this case, because neither one of them have a single person who can say that they were with them during the night of the murder or the following day. You can say that there is nothing one can draw about that either. However, there DNA is at the cottage and that is a problem with no alibi.
Abdar: The press said the defense attorneys were surprised by the prison transfers. Or the timing of them? Was this in the cards or surprise?
Nothing in this case is a surprise. What I am going to say about the prison is merely speculation and my take. I think location changes are always in the cards. The women’s prison that Amanda is located in is very small. It is only a small part of that prison location in Perugia......maybe 1 building. It may be better for the authorities to make the move in order to cut out all the leaks and unethical professionals that may not be executing their jobs (at the prison) appropriately. Maybe by such a move, controls can be put in place that preserves this case from further scrutiny. This is just my take on the idea of any more. I have not heard that this actually took place.
Abdar: "to re-create this crime based on the printed information is just a waste of time..."
I have often had that view. But some of the printed information is the suspects' written statements. With Knox and Sollecito, even those statements are vague and suspiciously confusing, as many posters have pointed out. I'll have to hear of better forensic evidence than what's been presented so far before I conclude knox or sollecito are guilty of anything, but the lack of corroboration and clarity in their statements seem to be a big problem for many observers.
Abdar: Re: transfers:
Nor had I read it actually had taken place. Sloppy note on my part.
Daniel,
You are correct. Most of us here have stuck only to the statements of the three individuals who are currently considered suspects in this case. That is all we can go by; we have nothing else except a smidgen of evidence that has been heretofore either released or leaked by the authorities.
I find it extremely curious to hear that the authorities have moved all three individuals to separate prisons; very curious. I am sure people here will be giving their opinions and I look forward to hearing from them.
daniel,
I think you are correct there. Much of the information is like pieces (vaguely arranged) that leave so many holes to finish the truth about what is being reported. As things move forward, the missing colors will be brought forth and many will finally see the same picture that people like me have already painted.
What I believe has happen is that an image has already been portrayed so for many, it is difficult to think that we could be lied to via media interpretations. I am not saying that the image people have assumed is that Amanda and Rafael are guilty of murder but they think they are guilty of something. This impression was created from the first week of this crime and has been painted several different ways ever since.
We know now that many of the ideas have been discounted and so the process to re-build is underway but I think that many have tainted ideas about the people involved and therefore I think their portraits will be blurred.
She was on her period I believe.---bpcl
Hey, bpcl, why do you believe that? It's not the tampon things is it? Remember that was a bad translation? The Italians were talking about Rudy's DNA being found on a swab, used to take evidence from inside MK. In some British press, they translated what was supposed to be "swab" as "tampon."
Abdar,
Both RS and AK are guilty of something. Both of them have systematically lied about what their version of the events were on the night of the murder. Why have they changed their stories? RS has changed his twice and AK has changed hers numerous times; at least four times by my count. If you discount what she has said from the beginning, and that of RS, then you are left with two people with no alibis. RS's last version is that he was home alone. AK states that she was with RS. This is a an apparent contradiction in terms.
you have to wonder why they required her to write things in english. ---Abdar
Isn't it she who wanted to write it in English, because it was easier for her to do?
Sparrow,
I did say I believe, because I was not sure. I am sure when the evidence is presented, we will learn more about this fact. That being said, RG's DNA is in a place where it should not have been. Meredith lost her life and with RG's DNA on her body, it could only lead one to believe that she was resisting, I am sure you will agree.
bpcl,
"Both RS and AK are guilty of something."
I am not trying to be rude, but there is nothing else for me to say to you about this.
I think your very question of Why have they changed their stories is the question that many of you need to learn. In time, you will have that answer.
I can't say anything else about this.
It may be better for the authorities to make the move in order to cut out all the leaks and unethical professionals that may not be executing their jobs (at the prison) appropriately. Maybe by such a move, controls can be put in place that preserves this case from further scrutiny. This is just my take on the idea of any more. I have not heard that this actually took place.
abdar | 02.18.08 - 12:33 am | #
This is a good guess in light of Lalli's firing, and rumors that more is to come.
bpcl,
Where was the DNA found that it should not be?
I did say I believe, because I was not sure. ---bpcl
But what leads you to believe that? There must be something.
This draws the question....why did she have to write in english? Why was easier to write in english?
I better not say anymore. It's best you draw your own conclusion about this area for the time being.
sorry 
that was to you sparrow...
Abdar,
I have to strongly disagree with your statement about the lack of linguistic expertise in Perugia, for one simple reason: it is a university town, and not just any. Students from all over Europe come for the Erasmus and other programs. I think linguistic expertise is as easy to get in Perugia as great chocolate.
I am also not sure Amanda was required to write in English, and if she was, so much the better--it is her native language.
You can't have it both ways on the language issue. I'm afraid you seriously weaken your case in my eyes if you take that road. All of the written statements made by the various protagonists can be translated by competent professionals. I would imagine this is of great importance for Amanda's parents right now. If they are looking for competent translators of the documents they are receiving, let me know. I know lots of extremely qualified people who could help out.
Why was easier to write in english?
I better not say anymore. It's best you draw your own conclusion about this area for the time being.
sorry
abdar | 02.18.08 - 1:01 am | #
That's okay Abdar, but I can give my guess, which to me seems obvious, English is her native language, so it would naturally be easier for her. And this is a very important document, she doesn't want to make any mistakes.
Abdar,
It was just recently reported or leaked by the pathologist Dr. Lalli, that the DNA of RG was found in the vagina of Meredith Kercher. The Doctor stated that this DNA transfer was probably the result of a finger or fingers transferred by RG. The Doctor also stated that there did not appear to be any physical contact by the sexual organ of RG, i.e. that she was raped, although that could be open to discussion, I am sure. The Doctor stated that there was evidence of physical activity on the part of Meredith although he could not say when.
bpcl,
My bad, I was refering to Amanda and Rafael...
I just went to the True Crime home page and Steve Huff reports that he is having some health problems. Many here obviously respect him. Mr. Huff has made optional donations possible with Paypal.
Thank you, Daniel.
Thanks Daniel.
Sparrow,
To know the answer to your question would be to solve this crime. I have never stated my theory about how or why Meredith Kercher died that night. I have only stuck with the facts. RG was there that night as he said. He definitely arrived there before Meredith, because he stated that he arrived at the cottage at 8:38 pm. He could only have gotten into the cottage by AK who had the key. Cellphones were turned off around this time by key individuals. I do not think RG lied about this time.
Meredith was not going there to meet him. She had never been seen with RG, ever. She would not be going back to that cottage with the idea of being intimate with RG. There is just no way, even though it cannot be proved. Meredith lost her life for sexual reasons precisely because RG's DNA has been found(leaked to us) in/on her body. The sexual stimulation of her body on the part of RG was the beginning of this assault on Meredith Kercher. She just was not going to participate and it ended up with her losing her life. The DNA of RS is on her brassiere(as leaked by the Authorities) There is no way that could happen unless RS were there too; just no way. I do not wish to go further with my belief as to what happened there that night; in time, I think it will be revealed by the authorities in the presentation of their evidence. The authorities have always stated that this was a sexual assault on Meredith Kercher and I believe them based on the evidence that has been presented/leaked to us and the fact that two of suspected individuals have absolutely no alibi that could stand up in a court of law.
bpcl:
I absolutely do not want to offend a friend of the family severely impacted by this or add to any of the burden of the victim's family even if they never have occasion to stumble across this but in lieu of documentary evidence I come back to motive.
Outside of a home invasion, robbery, burglary, or acquaintance attack I do not see one. I only see one suspect with the possibility of one of these motives.
I keep coming back to how three people with limited commonality (three different backgrounds, multiple laguages, short term living and working situations) could engage in concert in anything like this in any of the permutations--except in a Manson-esque or Mostro-esque scenario which fortunately only comes along every decade or two.
It doesn't make sense and trying to fit the facts to that scenario is great fiction but bad logic.
I can't get three people that I pay to act in concert. None of the scenarios I have read here and in the press pass the. (Pinecone and Robert M scenarios excepted.)
There is a suspect with DNA on the dead girl with a reported history of agressiveness towards women who said he was there. I am not saying case closed but I don't need another gunman on the grassy knoll to understand this crime.
Seattlite: "with a reported history of agressiveness towards women"
I must have missed this. Was it reported in the press (or elsewhere) that he had a history of aggressive behavior towards women?
Seatteite,
Neither RS nor AK have an alibi that can stand on two legs. If their DNA is in that cottage (The DNA of both AK and Meredith mixed has been found on the sink as reported by the authorites. The DNA of RS has been found on the brassiere of Meredith Kercher) then it must stand that they participated in this fiasco, no matter how illogical it may seem, based on what you said. Please understand, this is my opinion and only time will tell what really happened that night. However, as it stands right now, no alibi, with DNA in the cottage implies presence.
20/20 (that American-Perugia tour guide crime novelist kid) and a short video interview I recall not where with another student. Also in print somewhere...I will dig it up.
Seattlite,
Yes, I realize this, but given your distrust of the press and all that is printed, I am truly astonished.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I just don't get it. Why should we believe what people say about Rudy and what the press reports about Rudy and then discard the rest as rubbish? I don't quite see how to do this, and this is a big problem.
Same with Abdar's linguistic argument, I'm afraid.
Seattlite,
And there was motive on the part of AK. She was going to be fired by Patrick Lumumba, owner of the "le Chic restaurant, and replaced by Meredith. Patrick has stated that. It has been reported by the Father of Meredith and some of her friends that Meredith was not happy with the several men that AK was bringing to the cottage. It has been reported that the two of them did not see eye to eye about hygiene in the cottage. It has also been stated by both RS and AK that they were high on drugs the day of the murder. People do do strange, uncharacteristic things when they are high on drugs.
"People do do strange, uncharacteristic things when they are high on drugs"
Not good with old marijuana, bcpl. And no, I don't think Amanda's being replaced on the job by Meredith, if that was indeed the case, is a credible motive scenario.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 1:16 am |
Sorry bpcl, I thought you were still believing she was on her period, despite the tampon explanation. I misunderstood.
correction, make that "good old marijuana."
Goodnight to all.
Abdar and Seattlite: I really want to understand, but you are both wanting to have things both ways and that doesn't seem right to me.
Daniel,
You may be right about that. You can pick apart anything I say here and you may be right. I was just trying to say that there is a motive; jealousy. And though you may call it marijuana, we do not know what type. Marijuana can be extraordinarily potent in certain forms. Also, the issue of motive defines whether or not premeditation was involved. That is still to be determined, or rather proved.
That being said, no alibi and their DNA at the cottage implies presence.
Skep:
Nowak was in the Dateline:
Dennis Murphy: Did this guy Rudy have a reputation for being a drug guy? He was the guy who could find you some smoke?
Zach Nowak: No, but he did have a reputation for being sort of the guy who bugged the girls. To the point where the girl would go to the bartender and say “Look, this guy is bugging me. Can you tell him to leave?”
20/20 (that American-Perugia tour guide crime novelist kid) and a short video interview I recall not where with another student. Also in print somewhere...I will dig it up.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 1:32 am
My problem with the tour guide/novelist is that he doesn't know Rudy. He says he saw him around, and described him as "a loner." The trouble with this is that Rudy seems to have a lot of friends. If I see someone who knows Rudy well, and says this, that's another story. Or, more importantly if a woman complains about him. I saw that student in the video too, and I think he just said that Rudy was "REAL interested in girls." I have a feeling that the other few print references I've seen of this aggressiveness are just repeats of that novelist's words. They are never backed up by any incidents described first hand.
Skep:
My theory is you can't get three people of limited commonality to commit a brutal murder without a major pathology or circumstance --I do not see it. But I have been wrong a few times today already so I listen and read about it.
Seattlite:
You're missing the larger point. Is it deliberate?
I KNOW what Zach said. I KNOW what Giacomo said...I KNOW what they have all said and what has been reported. Are press reports credible or not? Is Zach giving his opinion or stating a fact? Have other people said the same thing or not? Have they said it under oath or not?
Just because it's on television doesn't mean it's more reliable than what some journalist puts in quotes.
Seattleite,
RG's lawyer has stated that the DNA of RG is at the cottage; there is no doubt about that. RG also stated that there were other people in the cottage that night as well. RG's lawyer stated too that that did not mean that he killed Meredith Kercher. These lawyers all have something up their sleeves as you well know. RG knows more about this crime then he is willing to tell. All three of these individuals know something about what happened that night in the cottage. Right now it is a cat and mouse game about who will reveal what. We are just going to have to wait and see. It is my belief that the three of them will argue that they had nothing to do with the crime until the bitter end. Daniel Mintz stated a few posts that he will have to wait until he sees the strength of the DNA evidence. I agree with him. Since nobody is willing to own up to anything, it will have to be the strength of the DNA that will determine the truth of the matter. Don't you agree?
Seattlite,
We're all in the same boat! Personally, I don't think they acted in concert. I don't think there was pre-meditation per se.
I see your point.
But there is so much we dson't know and accidents happen all the time. Whether people act in concert or not, shit happens. And that's what I'm interested in here.
Seattlite:
P.S. I didn't mean to sound so grumpy. I'm tired and have to go to bed!
It's a pretty grumpy case.
Press: Depends doesn't it. If I guy is willing to put his mug on camera and take the heat for his words he has a little bit more credibility, no?
He could only have gotten into the cottage by AK who had the key.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 1:16 am
I see it mentioned, every so often, that Rudy could not have got into the house without Amanda's key. Has everyone forgotten that he has a history of breaking and entering? Do you know what kind of locks were on all the entry doors? A screwdriver with the end filed thin is useful for jimmying locks, and could also serve as a weapon.
Press: Depends doesn't it. If I guy is willing to put his mug on camera and take the heat for his words he has a little bit more credibility, no?
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:01 am | #
Not if he has a book to sell. Whether or not he's right, he suffers no ramifications, but he gets publicity. And again, he was giving his opinion. His credibility would come from how well he really knows things.
Seattelite,
RG and AK were lovers; they admitted this, so you have two people who knew one another at least from that point of view. AK had been staying at his home every day. We do not know who was supplying the drugs to both AK and RS. Maybe it was RG, we do not know yet. If it is proven however, that AK phoned RG both before and after the murder, as has been reported/leaked, then obviously, you have the third connection.
Sparrow:
There is another student (with no book)who says the same thing in much stronger terms in the 20/20 I believe. I will try to find it.
Pinecone,
You are correct about that. However, the Police/Authorities and no one else has ever reported that the cottage was broken into.
You are correct about that. However, the Police/Authorities and no one else has ever reported that the cottage was broken into.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 2:07 am
They saw no signs of forced entry. That doesn't mean the lock was not jimmied. It means they saw no signs of force. They also said case closed, and no robbery, and gave Rudy time to escape to Germany.
Sparrow:
There is another student (with no book)who says the same thing in much stronger terms in the 20/20 I believe. I will try to find it.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:06 am |
I saw that and mentioned it a short time ago. The student was sitting outside. It looked like it was either outside a bar, or a party. There were lots of other people milling about and it looked like drinks and smokes around. It was a casual atmosphere. I hope you get the quotes, because from my memory, as I wrote before, I thought he merely said that Rudy was "REALLY into girls." But whatever it is, it has the strength of one guy's opinion stated in a casual atmosphere.
I will not argue those points. The saying 'Case Closed' has not been used since the very first days of this crime. Whey you look at the volume of information that has come out about this crime, even the authorities know that 'Case Closed' is simplistic. None of us know what happened that night in the cottage and I do not think we ever will. However, the fact that neither RS nor AK have an alibi, their current alibis are different, and their DNA in the cottage (reported/leaked) will imply presence.
None of us know what happened that night in the cottage and I do not think we ever will. bpcl | 02.18.08 - 2:16 am |
I really hope that's not true. Goodnight bpcl, and all. Seattlite, don't dig around too late. There's always tomorrow.
No force entry could also mean that RG was let into the cottage by AK.
REALLY into girls and bothers women in bars to the point where they ask he be thrown out and he has a thing for Amanda and Meredith and foreign girls in general and he ends up in a room with a dead foreign girl. You don't find this connective?
Sparrow,
Keep the faith! That is the glue that holds us all together in spite of our differences. This globe we travel on is our ship, it is all we have in our celestial heaven. Faith and hope is what keeps it turning. See yah!
Rudy's a real Einstein for pointing the cops to the robbery motive after leaving his own blood on the victim's purse and transferring Meredith's blood from his hand as he fumbled around inside the purse. You can be sure Meredith was not able to reach into the purse herself after the fatal stab.
Seattlite,
There is no question that RG was involved in this murder. That is a given. The question is, did he do it alone? That is what we are trying to discover. We just have to wait until the DNA evidence is presented to see whether or not others were involved. Or, if RG decides to tell his side of the story. The problem is, that all three of the suspected individuals have systematically lied so it is hard to discern what is truth and what is untruth when any of them speak.
REALLY into girls and bothers women in bars to the point where they ask he be thrown out and he has a thing for Amanda and Meredith and foreign girls in general and he ends up in a room with a dead foreign girl. You don't find this connective?
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:20 am | #
I'd have to know more. The only reason I believe that Amanda did sleep with a lot of guys, and made unwise choices with some of them is because she mentions it, and her roommate also did. If I heard a guy say that about her, in an atmosphere like that of the student who talked about Rudy, I would file it as possible, but not yet believed. When I was at university, I had a lot of friends. Many of them guys. How many was I sleeping with? None. But many people who didn't know me said otherwise.
I know Rudy is deeply involved in this crime for sure. But I want to know what really happened. In this case about Rudy's behavior with women, I'd like to hear from either people who really know him, women who have their own complaint about him, and the police.
And what's this about having a thing for foreign girls? Is there anything wrong, odd, criminal about that? What does that mean to you? And most university age heterosexual men, are REALLY into girls.
Keep the faith! That is the glue that holds us all together in spite of our differences. This globe we travel on is our ship, it is all we have in our celestial heaven. Faith and hope is what keeps it turning. See yah!
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 2:23 am | #
That was really nice. Ciao for real this time.
We do have any television into what happened in the cottage that night. If any of us state anything here, it is pure speculation. RG's lawyer has stated that RG'S DNA is on the purse, and on Meredith, but that does not mean he killed her. The blood of AK has been found mixed with that of Meredith on the sink in the bathroom. The DNA of RS has been found on the brassiere of Meredith. The DNA of Meredith and AK has been found on a kitchen knife in the flat of RS. No one can say what happened for sure in the cottage other than one of the three individuals currently in custody, and they are currently not speaking.
Sparrow:
Ridy's motives: I guess the answer would be, it depends on far you would take it. No sarcasm intended.
Rudy's Motives: of course.
Ridy's motives: I guess the answer would be, it depends on far you would take it. No sarcasm intended.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:35 am | #
Why do I keep refreshing one last time? I think I would have to agree with you on this one. It's that other talk that I don't buy. It's weak.
You might not see it, but I'm keeping an open mind. About the DNA what are the possibilities?
1. It got there through consensual petting.
2. It got there by force before the stabbing.
3. It got there after the stabbing.
In number three, I don't mean necrophelia. I mean, some guys... it happens in ambulances, hospitals, dentist's offices, etc. It happens wherever a woman can be incapacitated.
I'm not ruling any out yet. Goodnight.
bpcl: The question is, did he do it alone?
What would he need or want anyone else there for? I do not think his actions were premediated in terms of murder. He is a big guy against a small woman. Whether he wanted money or sex or if it changed by the moment I think Meredith screamed and he stopped her.
Seattlite,
You are entitled to your opinion. From my perspective, and please do not feel in any way that I am trying to make light of the situation, you are not considering all that I have written. You are not considering the fact that neither RS nor AK have an alibi, that they have been lying about there whereabouts on the night of the murder. And you are not considering the fact that their DNA has been found mixed with Meredith and on her brassiere. In order to understand this case, you must realize, that to ignore this information would be to ignore what really happened that night. I do beg your pardon, honestly.
bpcl:
I consider them. I don't know what the alibis are and I don't think you could either from press reports/leaks. The DNA also is in doubt. She lived there and RS was there that afternoon. DNA perfectly matched on a murder victim is proof, A trace DNA hit is not and might never even make it to court.
Gotta go but enjoyed exchanging theories. Best to all and thanks to Abdar and good to see the 'Cone.
Seattlite,
All that you are saying there is to refute the evidence. If I were to use your arguments there, then everything you are saying about RG is hearsay. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You and I will just have to wait until the evidence is presented.
Seattlite,
"All that you are saying there is to refute the evidence. If I were to use your arguments there, then everything you are saying about RG is hearsay. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You and I will just have to wait until the evidence is presented.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 3:05 am | #"
Seattlite - I would go even further please can you explain your views of the clean up and framing that occured into the night and the following morning whilst Guede for the bext part was patying the night away thinking that this would be his alibi until he found out that those that did the cleaning, the ones he trusted, did such a VERY poor job of it... thank goodness!!
This is a group crime and I think it all started with Meredith confronting Amanda regarding her missing money that night..... the rest is a sad trail leading to her murder.....
Amanda didn't need money. What is the motive for the group crime?
Abdar...
You keep saying that when the truth is known.....
I look forward to seeing the evidence that backs up the truth and also Amanda alibi that actually stands up and can be verified.
1) Being drunk, stoned and have a memory failure does not count I am sorry.
2) Hoping that everyone things this was a lone wolf crime (as hinted by seattlite) also will not work as one person will not be charged for enabling, doing the murder and clean afterwards.
I agree that a lot of what has been said in the papers is not worth the paper it is printed on but all in all there are consistant messages in the press and the individuals involved that clearly shows that RS and AK were not homealone all evening watching DVD's cuddles up on the sofa.
If evidence is shown to me that proves otherwise and they are discharged I will be the first one on here and on other blogs to say that I got this wrong and apologise.
Best regards
Seattlite.
I did not say Amanda took the money.
Guede may have had light fingers or Amanda may have told him where Meredith kept her money.
I think having found it had been taken it started the chain of events.
"Amanda didn't need money. What is the motive for the group crime?"
A point on this, why did Amanda look for part time work if she had $$$ in the bank?
Also if she did have a drug habit and enjoyed drinking, on her admission alone says she was stoned and drunk that day... how did she pay for these habits. That money in the bank was for food, rent, books, I am fairly sure that her kind parents did not allocate a % for drink and drugs and I lso believe that RS father was an eagle in respect to monitoring his sons spending and life in general so I am fairly sure that he was not the lone supply chain for drugs either.
From what I read on some student blogs about Perugia-- these jobs for foreigners don't pay much anyway. A little pocket change and the socializing. I just don't think the job was a make or break thing.
I think I also read that the drinks are free if you are handing out flyers. I must be off now; late here.
Thanks Seattleite
Regarding drinks are free you are porobably right, but that would not apply during a weekend when you are out with friends, that alcohol has to purchased from a shop.
Regarding part time jobs, I did plenty when I was younger (30 years ago!) and I know that I did not do just for social interaction.. the money was important and allowed me to do other things... in my case socialising and drinking.. not drug taking... I was a good wolf ;o)
Take care
John T
Thanks for this posting... which I have not seen before. Does this add weight to AK being the ne holding the knife and RS and Guede being behind / above Meredith....... or switch any of the 3 around... this was NOT one person holding the knife, she must have been held down and restrained whilst being threatened..... did Clint make any follow up statements anywhere regarding the case?
"Clint, who spent 25 years with the FBI as a onetime supervisor in the Behavioral Science Unit, known as the Profilers, is an analyst for NBC News
One wound was under Meredith's chin and Clint Van Zandt the FBI expert on Behavioural Science stated this is somnone stood in front of Meredith, sticking the knife under her chin and saying, Listen here, I'm angry, I'm serious, I'll kill you.
He also stated, no, in no way was it a game of any kind, Meredith suffered a most awful death, the blood of her hand indicating how after the knife had gone in one side of her throat and out of the other had grabbed her own neck and had also stumbled trying to steady herself. She had laid on her back but the wound was not all she suffered because she choked to death.
Zandt had access to the Italian findings and called the police good police. His opinion is that it is more than likely thought that one of the suspects will start talk"
A trace DNA hit is not and might never even make it to court.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 3:03 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is where you are wrong, I think.
To say this shows you are not understanding matter, atoms, and what DNA is.
Specks of DNA I think, I heard you say somewhere, and now you are on about it again, but DNA is invisible did you think you get a lump like a camel fig or what?
Double stranded DNA. It's a code that one of the main unravellers of it said, after seeing how intelligently it is composed, I can omnly think beings from another realm/galaxy must have planted it on earth.
So anyway I hope they find these horse marshamellows you seem to think are out there, soon.
Nicki explained it hair-fine how the processes work in the lab.
Post asbout DNA in response to Seattleite is from me.
Seattliete
"REALLY into girls and bothers women in bars to the point where they ask he be thrown out and he has a thing for Amanda and Meredith and foreign girls in general and he ends up in a room with a dead foreign girl. You don't find this connective?"
I find it very connective especially if it is found out that Guede hung out with AK and RS and sometimes may have provided drugs to them upon request
I would imagine that the prosecution are going all out to show the links between all 3
I still find it amazing that AK has no made no mention to the police that Guede even existed, as clearly she knew him and he has been to the cottage in the past.
I agree Love Wolf
Need money?
1 gram of hash or weed, ayt 15 euros a gram
2 grams a day = 30 euro
7 days
7x30 euros = 210 euros a week and 840
a month, approximately.
They were smoking all day, 2 gramns is finished justt like that if you smoke with friends.
but let's say, to cut the scepticism out half of that, to a very moderate 1 gram a day. That's 420 euros a month.
How it really works though is in places where people cant always buy so easily, people buy more when they have the chance and think they will haveenough to last such and such a time but they end up smoking more than they ever did because they have so much.
At 400 and more euros a month on smoke alone, a few thousand euros is nothing.
What people spend on smoke would normally buy them groceries for a few days.
It is highly probable Amanda needed to work to keep hold of her capital.
If you smoke a few hundred euros a month then want to go out eat out, drink in bars, and socialize, it's not cheap even in Perugia, It isn't cheap to live in Italy.
John T
Thanks for putting the 'flesh' on my thinking and when looking at the calculations then I think that a part time job is fairly essential... and I would have been pi**ed if my house mate.. the popular girl that no one had a bad word to say against had taken my job... that would have made someone angry... angry enough to overstep the mark.... high on drinks and drugs.... I wonder?
I am sure that the prosecution would be able to look at what was in AK's account and do calculations regarding incoming and outgoings and be able to do the sums re rent, food, phone, internet, etc.
Just because she had $$$ in her account means nothing to me. That was survival money to get her through her stay... this was not playing money!
Love Wolf
That prick under the chin.
My impression was that it was done standing, like a challenge but very unequal because one has a knife the other doesn't.
The image the behavioural expert conjured up, made me very sad.
I'll post the ink to the 6 page article, a good article, unbiased.
Being biased, one way or the other, is not productive towards finding out the truth.
The knife under the chin, was complete intimidation, control, and it was a short instant from that to the fatal blow.
People who are unable to converse properly and who can't get their way, sometimes react by getting violent.
The money.
I imagine it could have been Guede stealing it and that was the last and final straw for Meredith who then may have confronted Amanda.
Meredith's frustrations would have come to a peak, her money now gone, all of these men in the house, no privacy.
Having to be fully clothed just to go to the bathroom, for fear of bumping into yet another stranger, when after al it was the home of women.
Okay, if one had a boyfriend, then everyone would have known who he was, but to go to the kitchen in the morning to make tea and be greeted by someone you've never seen, who then eyes you up and down, would be disconcerting, if it happened a lot.
From Page 5 of the interview with Clint.
Clint Van Zandt: It had to be a horrific crime scene and a terrible way to die.
Chief investigators in Italy's national crime lab gave Dateline extraordinary access to the Meredith Kercher murder file.
Chillingly, the CSI director told NBC how he believes Meredith died. It’s a detail not reported until now. He demonstrated with his letter opener how the student was stabbed through the throat...
Dennis Murphy: All the way through the neck?
Directoire: Si.
A large blade knife made a through wound, left to right, coming out the other side.
And authorities believe a knife like a common kitchen knife taken from Raffaele, the boyfriend's apartment, may be the murder weapon.
Even though it had been scrubbed with bleach, analysts found traces of Meredith's DNA on the knife tip, and traces of Amanda's DNA near the handle.
What really pulled it together for Clint was a chance to study an array of the crime scene photos.
Clint Van Zandt: The blood that's on her hand would suggest that she had gone up to her throat. She had grabbed her throat realizing the knife had been a through and through wound. She's bleeding profusely. She's grabbed her throat, her hands are full of blood and she's reaching back trying to catch herself trying to hold herself up...
Clint thought the DNA on her body and the location of blood spray from the wound supported the investigative theory that Meredith was being sexually attacked from behind, bent over or perhaps being forced to her knees.
With the forensic briefing under our belt, early the next morning we went over to the little house where someone had plunged a knife into Meredith's neck after first threatening her with it.
Clint Van Zandt: This is someone who took a knife and first of all, they'd put it up under the victim's, like this. It's like pointing up, like this.
Dennis Murphy: “I’m talking to you, this is serious.” Huh?
Clint Van Zandt: This is to get the victim's attention and say, "You are going to comply with me and this is how serious I am." But then sometime after that, probably very quickly, there is the other, the killing wound.
Dennis Murphy: That's a forceful push, huh?
Clint Van Zandt: This was, "I’m angry. I'm forceful. I'm going to kill you."
Dennis Murphy: Do you see anything consistent with any sex game fantasy play you've ever encountered here?
Clint Van Zandt: This is no game. This is someone who was horribly violated and went through a terrible murder, because she didn't just die of the stab wound, she died because the blood was in her throat and she drowned in her own blood.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2233...2332240/page/5/
You are right John, very sad indeed...
Meredith comes across as a very proud and happy person, no one has said one bad word about her either in Perugia or elsewhere. She appears to have had good friends in Perugia (international mix) and Coulsden which is close to where I live.
I think that she had enough of what was going on in her cottage and sadly chose the wrong moment to deal with the issue...
Very sad...
John,
Your last posting re Clint makes me think even more that 3 people were engaged in the killing of Meredith...
JohnT, RS was a willing participant, I assure you.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 12:09 am | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Yes, I think so, he was either fully involved, or, he became involved when he allowed himself to be used to cover up.
I still think, somehow BPCL, that sex is involved.
Like the images too, in the lingerie store, they giove me a very bad feeling, can't help it, because just like right outside the home where the murder happened, right when the police had just arrived and Amanda And Raffaele were pictured kissing, the images meshed, those ones with the ones in the store, kissing again, Knox laughing, smiling, he stood there like, a compliant dog, they looked anything but upset to me.
Yet still, the main idea I'm having, is that Knox and Guede stood at the crossroads, sold their souls to the devil, and did the dirties, I think Sollecito led by his sexual organ, having his brain there, was easily led by Amanda. Sollecito sold his soul down the river too, when he became mother's little helper.
That's how it seems, because I still can't work out otherwise, any of it, and, I do think, in amongst what they say, is at various twists and turns in the road a few strands of truth.
But in all the wrong places so it becomes lies to suit their own needs.
For Raffaele to deny what Amanda said, means one or both is lying.
He says she wasn't at his place until 1 o clock at night.
He may have done that to try to distance himself from her.
But if one goes down, then all fall, I think.
The things Amanda has said aboyt Raffaele, to me, mean that he can't be equally guilty as she is, because if he was, she could use that against him, but if he was not there, then she can say things because he doesn't know what happened either, he only knew what she told him (if this is what happened) when she came home as he said at 1. Came home, probably in great distress. He'd have been, oh what what is there what's wrong. And so at that moment, shéd have been spinning a web of deceit, drawing him into feeling thinking that Amanda was a victim, because of Guede, doing things it was going to look like she had been involved when she had not. But what Sollecito did not know, was that she was involved and maybe, in fact, was the one who killed Meredith.
I do seriously think it was Guede and Amanda somehow, involved together.
For Amanda to start blaming Sollecito as she did, the fish/blood, the scenario of him going off to0 raope and murder and set her up, is reflective not of his character traiots, but of her own.
She is the one who set Patrick up, it was not Sollecito who did that.
In her story diary, My Prison, she then goes on to accuse in a round-about way, Sollecito.
If he had been equally involved, how would she have imagined she could start blaming him without running the risk he'd tell all?
He can't tell all, because he wasn't there. (I think)
But she knows, cunningly, and notedly, how he feels she knows his fears and the fears he has is that he can nevcer admit it, because of his dad, his dad of high standing, he'd be finished. So, Amanda is in a way, blackmailing him, by making him scared.
She is far more calculated and criminally minded, being that she has done what she did, that is a crime to falsely accuse an innocent man it may niot be evidence in court but to me it is evidence of her character. It's part of her. Not many people would do what she did by framing Patrick a man with a baby and a wife and a man who helped her by giving her a job.
In my view, the one who is playing games, but on the other hand is most serious, is Amanda. She is psychologically holding Sollecito to ransom, knowing how he thinks and feels (and fears), though he aided a cover-up she knows he wants to get off entirely. So she can play around with saying bulls--t stuff about him because the stuff she said was so weak anyway, she knew it and he knew it, would-you-ever, he whaaaaaaat??? creeped off, raped and murdered, sneaked back in, rubbed her hand on the knife. That's why she made that up, to make those who it is important to, think that she is trying to think up who is the guilty one, even if it means pretending to think it might be Sollecito, when all the time, she is as guilty as sin. It's transparent, she is not opague, her thinking is like a sieve for pasta.
To disprove that stance, that she is guilty, she can choose to either tell more lies and only prove more so, that's she is a pathological liar, or start telling the truth. When she tells the truth, she'll be believed. Because the strength of conviction behind it will be real and, the loose ends will all tie in together. Right now it is spaghetti junction and it's a traffic jam.
No way would they be in jail if they are innocent, because they'd not be telling crap about one and other, they'd say what really went on. If they'd have been at home, and not at the murder scene it would have been clear. It is not clear and the people to blame for that, are not those in authority, those trying to get justice for Meredith but they themselves are to blame for the lies and lack of belief in them.
Behind the scenes though they'll (Guede's lawyers) never admit it because that's what lawyers do. Guede's lawyers know his case scenario is ridiculous, amongst themselves they'll have debated it and had a laugh at how ridiculously weak Guede's storyline is.
Their strategy? Now Rudy just keep your mouth shut and you do what we say. He isn't making a noise. He already has the card, Go To Jail, No Way Out, what else can he possibly do but shut up?
John T
1 gram of hash or weed, ayt 15 euros a gram
2 grams a day = 30 euro
7 days
7x30 euros = 210 euros a week and 840
a month, approximately...
That's a pretty wild overestimation of Amanda's cannabis costs on anyone's calculations.
From the EU:
Price and potency
In 2004, the average retail price of cannabis resin in the EU varied from 2.3 euros per gram in Portugal to over 12 euros per gram in Norway, while the price of herbal cannabis ranged from 2.7 euros per gram in Portugal to 11.6 euros per gram in Malta, with a majority of countries reporting prices for cannabis products of between 5 and 10 euros per gram (47).
Average prices of cannabis resin, corrected for inflation (48, fell over the period 1999-2004 in all reporting countries (49) except Germany and Spain, where prices remained stable, and Luxembourg, where a slight increase occurred. Average prices of herbal cannabis, corrected for inflation (50), of type unspecified or imported, also decreased over the same period in most of the reporting countries, but remained stable in Spain and the Netherlands and increased in Germany, Latvia, Luxembourg and Portugal. Only two countries, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, have reported on the average price of locally produced herbal cannabis, and in both cases it has declined.
Europa
Because of it's proximity to North Africa and it's relaxed laws with regard to personal possession, I'm willing to bet that cannabis doesn't cost more than 5 Euro's a gram in Italy(and any regular user is going to buy in larger quantities with it's consequent discount).
Meredith's boyfriend said that the boys usually bought the cannabis and shared it with the girls.
There were cannabis plants growing in the garden at the girls house. In October these would have been mature and the bud at full potency. Italy has an ideal climate for this hobby, I bet it was everywhere in a university town like Perugia.
Brian
I think that she had enough of what was going on in her cottage and sadly chose the wrong moment to deal with the issue...
Very sad...
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 6:23 am | #
'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, that's right I would say.
Tempers flare they do not play gently, that is why it is called temper. Temperament is another.
Warped senses of reality is a state, that people get in when instead of feeling ok and in harmony with themselves and their surroundings drawing from an own inner well trhrey instead use stimulants, drugs, alcohol and lose touch with their own goodness, they do not know how it feels to feel great about being alive through natural means.
I think it all came to a head, and again concerned stupid stuff, but that builds up, the money missing, I think that might have made the pot cook over. I don't think that Amanda wanted to be told anything, I think she'd become narcissistic. Not in tune with what others felt.
"To disprove that stance, that she is guilty, she can choose to either tell more lies and only prove more so, that's she is a pathological liar, or start telling the truth. When she tells the truth, she'll be believed. Because the strength of conviction behind it will be real and, the loose ends will all tie in together. Right now it is spaghetti junction and it's a traffic jam"
John T - If AK is a pathological liar (I think she is and agree with your posting) then I am sure her family must have some doubts in her story and alibi. I do not buy this 'we have never doubted her innocence one moment' that they quoted on the 20/20 show. Love for your daughter is one thing but facing up to reality and what she did and did not do that evening is just as important. AK will not tell the truth between now and court, she will spin some half truths and she, her family and defence teams will do everything to explain away DNA evdince and the timeline
The ONE thing they will not be able to do is to get RS to change his story (again) to say that she was with him between 9pm and 1am as that will remove his final piece of protection that he states he was not in the house when Meredith was murdered.
Brian
Anonymous | 02.18.08 - 7:35 am | #
________
Come off it Brian, you may be a gardener but I've seen Italians with their plants, do you know? you do not automatically get fantastic grass just because you have sun, if you want to debate about weed, I happen to be an expert on it, on growing it too.
Just because there may have been one or two plants outside does not mean that they were for everyone, what do you know, they were probably the boy's plants and then that doesn't mean they would say to everyone well take our plants if there were any flowers on them anyhow, because seed needas to become acclimatized and clippings from other plants. Nothing was said about it, they might have had a few scraggly weeds there with hardly anything on them.
The guy downstairs too talked about buying weed. Even if you have a couple of plants they are soon smoked up. I can't see them having grown big time there, cultivation is punished heavily in Italy.
what if RS was intimate with Mk in the past but not on the night of the murder, but came to see her when AK left?
Me...
RS has already stated that
1) MK has never been to his flat
2) MK friends would have known
3) AK and RS were together all day apart from 9-1am (according to RS)
4) There would be more DNA apart from on the bra clip that was cut off
I think you are barking up the wrong tree me.....
Besides that RS was a geek.... knife loving loner... not the greatest of catches.... apart from Amanda of course he liked him because he looked like Harry Potter.... enough said...
John
When the attack happened I think that AK wanted to totally humiliate Meredith, as her way to get even once and for all with the upstart English girl. I could see her holding the knife (DNA evidence, knife from RS flat, knows what position and where Merdith was killed), RS standing over her with his penkife holding her bra and forcing her down (DNA evidence), and Guede behind, probable intention was rape, but in a room with 2 others and the victim all under the influence that I doubt whether he could actually do the rape, hence use of fingers (DNA evidence), still humiliation / torture being induced on poor Meredith. I think that Meredith even in this situation was doing her best to resist and fight them off and that is when the initial knife would was inflicted... may not have been intended but it happended all the same... the reaction of the 3 was then to save there own skin... and not Merediths.... Guede legs it, takes the mobiles (DNA evidence from bag) and the other 2 decide that their survival and reputation is more important than any attempt in saving Meredith.
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 7:47 am | #
I think it will be either Guede or Sollecito who will talk.
Not Amanda, she has tried to be cunning al the time, accusing others, anyone, nobody is spared, that's a main indicator of the state of mind she has.
She accused Lumumba
Sollecito
The police
If Guede starts spilling beans, about her, she'll turn on him then.
But, until that time, she isn't saying anything, she has said nothing at all up until now only lies.
IdF sollecito was'nt here bvut like a gfool allowed himself to be drawn in by helping clean up, and he then decides hew must say his part, truthfully.
Though that truth will not reveal what happened in the room, once he tells how Amanda told him Rudy had done this and that and now she was going to look like she was involved because she has invited him around, then I think once that stuff starts being revealed, Amanda will be faced with lying to the bitter end or giving it up. Up until now, she has in no way given it up. There has been no turning point, the mind-set she had when Meredith was murdered she still has right now. It is going to drive her insane. She will need to be able to confide in someone.
If it was that Sollecito had done all of the bad, Amanda would have already been able to say where she was, what she did, who she was with, when and where.
Though Amanda has told weak stories like feigning that she was trying to think up how it could have all happened, and in that kind of softy patronizing way, at the same time accusing Sollecito, he also has been acting, like saying she was a pleasure seeker, divorced from reality, yet he couldn't see her being a murderess. He wanted to deflect the idea of him being guilty by pretending to be searching for answers and by playing at being ignorant of facts. He either was present and took part and knows she is guilty of murder, or he doesn't know, he only wonders now exactly what she did do. All as he knows is he is guilty too of helping and that in this mess it is going to be hard to convince anyone of his part. He still hasn't realized he is not going to walk away, that is why he is waiting, he's trying to get off, to be the guy he was, but he never will be, he made a mistake and until he faces his demons he is going nowhere.
Just one, one, starts to talk and sparks are going to fly.
Emotion. Emotions will run wild, temperaments will burst ansd exoplode, tempers will rage, in court, when all three are in one another's presence. The lawyers can keep their clients quiet now, but in court, as Knox already did in front of police at the station and in front of the judges, she is likely to freak right out, as soon as anyone says anything about her, she will have a fit. The others will also not take it lying down as the case proceeds, if it looks worst for Guede, he'lll cough it all up. The day judgement draws near, panic will set in from all sides. They have the comfort and luxury of time right now but as the reality of facing at least 21 years in prison or life imprisonment sets in they'll be working out their options, they'll all want te best deal. If they are thick as two short planks they'll lie right until the end and take the worst punishment like fools. Liars cannot keep it up forever though. Yet, they may well keep it up until it is too late. Then it's even harder, once punished, to convince anyone that you've genuinely turned over a new leaf and are fit now to be rehabilitated. The spider becomes trapped in its own web because it doesn't have a leg to stand on.
"I can't see them having grown big time there, cultivation is punished heavily in Italy".
John T | 02.18.08 - 7:48 am |
Actually Italian legislation makes a difference between detention of drugs (hashish and marijuana, "light drugs")for personal use and detention with the purpose of dealing. The first goes unpunished up to 1 gr of THC, but any quantity above is no longer considered for personal use, and may turn into a dealing charge (a felony) Growing plants is therefore a serious offense.
As for the price of hashish, it depend on where one buys it-on the streets can easily go up to 15 euro /gr, if one buys it from a "friend dealer", it costs less, but surely not less that 8-10 euros/gr.Not direct info of course but got through a knowledgable source.
John
I could not agree more. I think this prison move is good... they were getting too comfortable, nice routines going on... this is not a holiday camp after all and I think moving them will make them realise the situation they are in which is serious.
AK will continue to lie as will RS as long as their PR teams, Legal teams and family have blind faith that they are 100% innocenet no matter what they have said or done or what any of the evidence points at.
This I find hard to stomach as Merediths family stay quiet waiting for justice. I can put hand on heart and say I do not know exactly who did what that night but deep down I can also say that all 3 of them played a role in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
My money is on Guede talking first then RS talking second..
AK will not talk... and her family will continue to maintain her innocence all through the court case and the years following....and never admitting her guilt.
The only other option available for AK I think is to claim insanity... I think the case for that would be a good one....
I hope the demons that haunt them keep them awake at night.
Hiya Nicki....
"Not direct info of course but got through a knowledgable source"
Sounds like a very good source you have Nicki... ;o)
Love Wolf,
I also think the prison move might also be "strategic". I don't know about Terni prison, but Rebibbia in Rome (AK destination) doesn't enjoy Capanne "holiday resort" reputation in the Italian jail circuit. It's an old overcrowded structure unlike Capanne, and living conditions are pretty rough.Being the trio high profile,I am sure they will benefit of some extra comfort, but the move (at least to Rebibbia) should definitely make AK realize what kind of mess she has got herself in.
Love Wolf,
a pretty good one indeed
Thanks for that info Nicki.... and if it is a strategic then well timed. I am also now looking forward to the next batch of evidence that was sent aqwayto rome (70 pieces) do you know when those results are due.
I cannot see any of the 3 being released in April and that also will hit them all hard regarding the enormity of the situation, I am sure that AK and RS are being given hope and reassurances by their family and teams but I think this is false hope that once evaporated will sober them up to reality.........
Nicki,
"...should definitely make AK realize what kind of mess she has got herself in"
Spot on... at the end of the day there is only one person that she can blame for this situation.... Herself.
Don't know when the additional results are due. I keep reading how much Mignini hates leaks(he has showed it by dismissing Lalli), and since anybody working with him would have known that before it was made public,I now think that perhaps many of the leaks were coming from defence...who knows.
Nicki
I think the defence team were playing their little games.. it is what they get paid for... and much of the leaks were by them.
I think from now on the prosecution will keep everything close to their chest and will be running a much tighter ship, the jail move being step one... they are redfining the rules of engagement....
If I were the defence and any of these 3 was my client I would be worried... and apart from throwing stones at DNA and paying lots of money to so called 'experts' to tell you what size shoes you wear.... I would be worried about the prospects for my client.
Love Wolf,
I was thinking about RS asking to be interrogated by the judge back in December (prior to RG arrest in Germany?), and then refusing to speak when granted the hearing (after RG arrest and first declarations?). I don't know if timing is correct, but if it is, then his move needs much explanation.
You have a good memory Nicki, I accuse my daughter of having a memory like an elephant espcially around Christmas time!!
I think RS and AK were hoping that Guede would run and keep on running, find a new identity and never get caught.
When he WAS that must have come as a big shock to them suddenly changes of stories had to start...... the accusing of Patrick and also the fake evdince was smoke screen and they were stupid enough to believe that none of this would point back to them....
That's a very good possibility and explains RS changing his mind after RG arrest.
PS I do have a great memory, although -unfortunately-I think I must be a little older than your daughter :o).
Off to the gym,catch u later LW
Have a great workout Nicki...
My daughter is 11 going on 21......
Re Seattlite:
"Press: Depends doesn't it. If I guy is willing to put his mug on camera and take the heat for his words he has a little bit more credibility, no?
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 2:01 am | #"
I have to disagree here too, especially in the world we live in. People readily express their opinion on television as well as fact. An opinion is not fact.
Being "really into girls" does not necessarily imply a history of aggressiveness toward women.
I'm not saying Rudy didn't break and enter as Pinecone susggests--this presumably will come out if true--but character judgement is character judgement, whether on paper or on television. I'm interested in facts, stated under oath.
And for her sake I truly hope Amanda Knox's case for innocence is a whole lot stronger than this.
You can't have it both ways on reports and press and so on.
daniel mintz | 02.16.08 - 4:20 pm |"Doug Preston
’s input was dismissed as less than relevant, unfairly, I think."
A bit OT, but of interest: I felt a little bad for being one of the principal shouters in caps the other day (maybe I was the only one...) when Douglas Preston posted here, so I sent a note to him through his web page, apologising. He very decently has replied to me with a very nice note. I hope he can make it back here. As he said in his note: "We all want the same thing, which is justice."
-
"We all want the same thing, which is justice."
Totally agree.....
John T -
Very good points in your response to my post. We actually think very much in the same way and I am at the same place as you in all your points. The only point on which I disagree is the following:
"1/ I don't think she took a shower, at the crime scene.
a) According to what she said, she was scared, then based on that, I would imagine she wouldn't have felt relaxed about having a shower there, even if she took it in the bathroom where no blood was visible."
I feel there is evidence for a shower taking place. I also think that shower explains certain things which otherwise would be problematic to understand. Logic also suggests that a shower would have been necessary...either from contact with the victim whilst carrying out the crime...or contact with the victim trying to comfort her whilst she was dying....or contact with certain messy areas in the first stages of the 'Clean-Up'. One can also imagine one or more of the antagonists being parranoid about the prospect of traipsing through Perugia with possible visible blood on them. Those little truths that stand out amongst the lies also suggest a shower. Showers crop up 'twice' in Amanda's account of events...one being taken the night of the murder...the other in the morning. The former shower event also has another event attached so bizzare it has the ring ot truth about it. That is, RS cleaning Amanda's 'ears'...and again this is a 'double' in Amanda's accounts with her also mentioning her ears in regard to her putting her fingers in them...which may well have actually had blood on them so making RS cleaning her ears no longer strange, but indeed fully necessary. Amanda also reported seeing a puddle of bloody water in the bottom of the bath. This was most likely caused by someone who had blood on them taking a shower and also maybe certain bloody items/clothing being hosed down there. I cannot think of a reason why Amanda would make this up. Then there is at least one invisible to the naked eye bare bloody footprint in Amanda's room that showed up under luminol testing. Why would someone be walking around the murder scene barefoot and stepping right in blood? This is very hard to exlpain. Unless they didn't...but simply had a shower with the ponding area inside the bath gathering a small degree of bloodied water which would have been on their feet on getting out of the shower, perhaps stepping into flip-flops, and leaving the invisible footprint in Amanda's room whilst getting dressed/changed. If this shower took place, it would have been on the night of the murder rather then the morning after, since that's when the blood wash fresh and more likely to be on people.
Sorry...the above 'anonymous' post was me.
Just on the subject of the missing money.. this was from Telegraph in December.
..................................
Bank checks have shown that Meredith Kercher, 21, withdrew €250 (£17
to pay for her rent two days before she died.
Her landlord has told police that the money, which should have been paid on Nov 1, was never received and no trace of it has been found.
Officers involved in the case have disclosed that €215 (£153) was found on Amanda Knox, Meredith's American flatmate and her suspected killer, when she was searched.
The theory that Knox, 20, robbed Meredith is being considered by police after a drug pusher in Perugia told detectives that she was in debt to her pusher.
.................................
Is it just coincidence that AK had a similar amount of money, was this money also to pay her part of the rent? or had that been paid via the bank? Would it be normal for someone to be carrying that amount of money on there person?
The discussion is fascinating, but I have to point out something that you've all missed, particularly the people condemning Lalli as incompetent for having said that Meredith hadn't drunk alcohol that night. Meredith's blood alcohol was 0.43 grams/litre. According to the blood alcohol calculator, if she'd drunk a glass of wine an hour before her death, it would have been 43 grams/litre. That's 100 times higher. The finding of 0.43 grams/litre shows she didn't drink any alcohol that evening, which is what was originally reported. The level found is consistent with her having drunk alcohol the night before, which we know she did.
Michael / John T
The only thing I would like to add is that AK got back to cottage at 10.30 and did not return to Raff's place until 11.30... what was she doing in the hour.. having found the door wide open and being concerned, she sure took her time raising any alarm! Why did she not phone him would have saved her legs!
Anon - Thanks for the point about blood alcohol levels.
Anonymous | 02.18.08 - 10:42 am |"The level found is consistent with her having drunk alcohol the night before"
Thanks Anonymous, so we can take out one or two items (glasses of wine) from the "inhouse" timeline, which was starting to get crowded between the victim hanging up after talking with her mother (I'd like to see further confirmation on that) at 21.30 h. plus a few minutes, and 22.30 h. when Rudy runs out (by his own admission) and bumps into Alessandra F. in the street (by Alessandra's testimony).
Kermit
Have we any idea of what the content or time of the phone call was between Merdith and her mother?
time = period, how long was the call?
the above considerations on alcohol in blood are wrong.
0.5 (not 50!) grams/litre is the legal limit in many european countries for driving
MK probably had just one or two drinks
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 11:00 am | "Have we any idea of what the content or time of the phone call was between Merdith and her mother?"
No. I have only seen one reference to it, lost in the text of this article:
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...rdo-
amanda.html
It's actually quite significant ... if this phone call actually occurred, I'm sure the victim's mother would have been interviewed by police. Even if her mother simply said: "no, there was no mention of anyone else being there, nor was there any music or noise in the background", that would be very significant. And it would be even more significant if the victim had said "yes Mum, that's Amanda and her boyfriend watching Manga videos"!.
Kermit
That is where I was leading, if she made a reference to no being home alone, having a quiet night in, anything that is relevant and yes I am sure that is something stored away for court.
There is a also a possibility that even others were there (Guede and RS) then she may not say anything as not to worry her monther being so far away........
mother
Sorry...this 'anon' post was also me:
Traduco, Indie, Skep -
I don't think the prison moves are anything to really worry about...I 'very' much doubt any of them will be put in general population, they'll be segregated. They are high profile prisoners and that makes them targets for other prisoners. Being such high profile prisoners the ILE/italian prison authourities can't/won't risk any 'accidents' happening to them. The resulting political fallout would be far too great. They also wouldn't want them learning any new tricks from other prisoners.
Anonymous | 02.17.08 - 10:15 pm | #
Kermit,
Thanks for locating this.
According to my Italian to French to English, it says that "the last person to hear Meredith's voice before she met her killers was her mother, in England. Meredith CALLED HER MUM at 21:30 on November 1. She was calling from home (at least that is what she said), having returned from dinner at her friend Sophie's, where they watched a DVD (Nick Cassavetes' "The Notebook"). Apparently (although this remains to be confirmed), Meredith was alone at this time."
the above considerations on alcohol in blood are wrong.
Quite so.
The legal limit in the UK is 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood.
Dept. of transport - UK
and 50mg is quite common on the continent.
50mg alcohol per 100ml blood = 500mg per litre = 0.5g per litre.
If I were to have a theory, I would stick to the glass or two of wine when Meredith raided the fridge.
Brian
Pinecone-
"I see it mentioned, every so often, that Rudy could not have got into the house without Amanda's key. Has everyone forgotten that he has a history of breaking and entering? Do you know what kind of locks were on all the entry doors? A screwdriver with the end filed thin is useful for jimmying locks, and could also serve as a weapon."
I keep seeing people taking Rudy's very sparse criminal record it must be said, and turning him into some 'Master Burgler' as a result. He is on record for one attempted burglary for which he was immediately caught having 'broken' into the house via a window. He broke into a nursery to spend the night...and again was immediately caught. Let's face it, as a criminal he isn't very good. Lock picking is a skill very few burglars have, career burglars mainly, the majority are 'smash and grab'. Rudy's rap sheet far from evidences a 'career criminal' of any kind or any actual expertise in the matter. He's a complete amateur. Rudy is 'no' locksmith.
From the Telegraph of London...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher507.xml
Police chief Arturo De Felice said Miss Knox had "crumbled and confessed" under intense questioning.
"There were holes in her alibi and her mobile phone records were crucial," he said. Records showing the location of the phone helped disprove her claim to have been elsewhere at the time of the murder".
I suspect that this refers to her movements during the day as her mobile home was turned off during the crime I though?
Also from same article..
"She said Miss Kercher's door was locked so she telephoned Sollecito and then the police".
Brian | 02.18.08 - 11:22 am |
Thanks Brian, okay, we'll put a couple of glasses of wine back into the "inhouse" timeline.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.18.08 - 11:21 am | Skep, with a phone call to Mum, a couple of glasses of wine, an attack and a murder, (and a few moments of "comforting" while her attacker(s) tried to work against the universal law of entropy - ie. you can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, before they abandoned her), there's a lot which was packed into the victim's last hour.
Anon | 02.18.08 - 11:32 am |"She said Miss Kercher's door was locked so she telephoned Sollecito and then the police".
RS's "confession" statement (ie. modified statement) said that on Nov. 2 morning, Amanda woke him up when she left to go shower, then she woke him up again when she returned to his house (that's how and when he noticed she was wearing a dress).
I always wondered, in addition to showering (if she showered at the cottage in the morning), why Amanda, upon realising there had been a "break-in", didn't telephone RS (sleeping or not sleeping, their telephones had been switched on again very early in the morning).
Now according to Anon's quote, she either did really call RS (in other words, she didn't wake him up with her dress on)(that would make more sense if she suddenly realises there has been a robbery, instead of leisurely walking back to his place - and there's a phone call record in the phone company - or she is misremembering. Or they're both misremembering.
Kermit:
we'll put a couple of glasses of wine back into the "inhouse" timeline.
Strange thing is, this almost fits with Rudy's statement about the evening.
He says that whilst he was in Meredith's room, and because he didn't know where the glasses were, he drank juice straight out of the bottle when Meredith wasn't looking as she had temporarily left the room.
Brian
Kermit
Also in AK text exchange with a friend she exchanged 5 messeges and said that she was the first to find the body and phone the police....
More lies I suspect!
Kermit,
I think one glass of wine is more consistent with the BA reading, based on gender, height/weight, food intake and other parameters.
It is possible, if she got home at 21:00, that she poured herself a glass of wine right away, which gives us a little more time to work with.
But I agree, this is a lot to pack in if the witness who was almost run over is right about the time. Do we have witnesses placing Rudy at the disco at a precise time? Wouldn't he have had to run home and change his clothes before hitting the disco? In addition, Rudy's role in any clean-up effort right after the fact now looks like a lot to pack into this particular timeframe.
Brian | 02.18.08 - 11:56 am |
Brian, what you're saying is that there's 0.43 grams of truth in each litre of Rudy's alibi, and only 0.09 in the others'.
-
Skeptical Bystander | 02.18.08 - 11:59 am | Fine Skep, one "medium" sized glass... I don't know, it's not important (or maybe it is), but I don't see her barely getting in the house (after hanging out with her friends all afternoon and avoiding alcohol), closing the door, being alone, and pouring herself a glass of wine to drink alone.
I would have thought that the wine would have been with others, while things were still civilised.
I'm having real problems posting to this board for some reason.
Sorry if I am being dense here, but about the Guede DNA evidence,why have they concluded it's from his
finger(s)? I mean, DNA is DNA is DNA. If it's DNA, it could be from any part of his body, right?
Therefore, could it be that Guede indeed attempted intercourse (rape), but there was no sign of penetration because he was impotent? (sick and impotent that night).
Traduco | 02.18.08 - 12:12 pm |
If you are able to load the old thread, search backwords from the end for "DNA" and you'll find a lot of discussion about Rudy's DNA. I learned from that discussion that yes, you can distinguish between DNA from sexual fluids, from skin cells, etc.
Also, a lot of discussion about "rape" / "sexual assault" not necessarily having to be limited to a definition if "traditional" rape. (I'm not sure how Italian law distinguishes between different types of penetration - in Spain, one type of sexual assault is just as bad as another).
-
Sorry if I am being dense here, but about the Guede DNA evidence,why have they concluded it's from his
finger(s)? I mean, DNA is DNA is DNA. If it's DNA, it could be from any part of his body, right?
Traduco | 02.18.08 - 12:12 pm |
That's correct. The finding of Rudy's Dna from epithelial cells does not eliminate the possibility of penile penetration. The entire surface of the human body, and inside body cavities (mouth, nose, etc.)is covered in epithelial cells. Medical examiners would have no way of knowing that the cells they found came from a finger, toe, or penis, or any other body part. They have said only that sperm was not found, but this does not mean the epithelial cells absolutely did not come from a penis.
Kermit,
Actually, I think you're probably right about that. My husband even suggested yesterday that maybe she poured herself a shot of whiskey and I said no way can I see a 20-year old girl returning home from an early and quite tame evening spent watching The Notebook and hitting the bottle.
I even have a hard time imagining her coming in to an empty, shutting the door, and then heading for the kitchen to pour herself a glass of wine.
A social setting for the drink seems much more plausible. The problem, as we keep seeing again and again, is that we still don't know what happened. My gut tells me that others were already there when she got home and she had a drink with them. Or others arrived shortly after she did, and she had a drink with them.
Pinecone | 02.18.08 - 12:53 pm |
Thanks Pinecone. I'm on a DNA learning curve.
Skeptical Bystander | 02.18.08 - 12:57 pm |"My gut tells me that others were already there when she got home and she had a drink with them. Or others arrived shortly after she did, and she had a drink with them."
I went through many many situations in younger days of having a drink with persons who I wasn't necessarily close to (in fact they could have been quite the opposite), in university residence situations or house parties or whatever, but what the heck there they are, if they're going to whoop it up why not have a drink too.
Re: the anticipated prison transfers. Skep, I doubt the Rebibbia move was to accomodate the Knox family.
My sense is that this commute may prove to be just as long for them, as it is to travel to Perugia. If you know Paris or New York or Rome, you know that sometimes it takes just as long to travel through/around the city to a periphery area of that city as it is to travel to a distant (outside) town.
There is a Rome city bus that takes you near to Rebibbia, but then you need yet another form of transportation to take you to the prison.
Furthermore, sensing how devoted Amanda's parents are to her, I strongly doubt they would ever want their child to be transferred to this "Hell on Earth." (see my earlier post on the subject).
John T. wrote: "The prison in Perugia is new too, so those descriptions about grim, don't seem accurate."
John T, I'm puzzled why you actually DOUBT Rebibbia is such a grim place. And as for being "new", Rebibbia was built in the 1950's. It's terribly overcrowded, by all accounts, basic health care is lacking.
As for segregating Amanda from the general prison population, why would anyone assume that? In Perugia, she wasn't segregated, why should it be any different in Rome?
Here's a quote about Rebibbia from "Associazione Antigone" which is a political/cultural watchdog type group in Italy working for humane conditions within prisons.
Their report of Rebibbia includes
mention of a dreadfully underfunded facility where basic medical care can be lacking, where lice proliferate, not to mention Hepatitis C outbreaks. Dampness permeates areas of the prison, and I imagine mold. . .
For the record, prison cells are generally 12 square meters, 4-5 women in each cell that contains a sink and toilet.
From the Antigone report:
"There are internal conditions, even from the hygienic standpoint, that make "livability" there oppressive..."
"Ci sono condizioni interne, anche dal punto di vista igienico, che rendono pesanti le condizioni di vivibilità..."
http://www.associazioneantigone....o/
rebibbiaf.htm
This will be no "ROMAN HOLIDAY" for Amanda.
-Traduco
Thanks, Traduco.
I was just speculating about possible, less sinister reasons for the move, partly to counter the tendency to read the tea leaves on everything little thing that happens. It was said that Capanne was never meant to be other than a temporary holding pen for the 3.
And of course you're absolutely right. It feels much easier to take a train from Paris to Nice than to get from the center of Paris to some of the more obscure towns in Ile de France, notwithstanding the excellent regional rail system.
Frank has a good blog entry today on the Ribibbia prison, which is something of a corrective to your information. For example, he talks about a renovation that was done in 2006.
Kermit,
It's been a long time since I was 21, but I do have a hard time imagining that Meredith came home and poured herself a stiff one, alone. This scenario is more of a made for tv one, with the harried 30-something coming home from a tough day at the office and pouring herself a glass of wine as she contemplates her refrigerator or draws a bath.
Unless they have a drinking problem, young people tend to drink socially, with peers, as part of a group thing.
John T
Specks? Never said any such thing. Please do not attribute things to me I never said.
SB
If Meredith talked to her Mom that evening (?) she may have poured herself a glass of wine, to help unwind while talking to her, and get ready for bed. It doesn't exclude that others were there.
DLW,
I agree. One of many plausible, possible scenarios.
Also I’m also curious if any empty glasses or dishes were found laying around. I doubt that Rudy would wash dishes before leaving. Unless Amanda washed dishes in the morning before realizing anything was wrong. That is if anybody drank anything their, which seems unlikely. Rudy, I think said he drank out of a pop bottle?
The Italian police are not quite as stupid as some people seem to think. They are also quite capable of lying to the media to achieve an arrest.
For example:
RG's fingerprints were all over the house. RG had been arrested more than once in the past for petty offences, and his prints (but probably not his DNA) would have been on record in both Perugia and Milan. It does not take long to match fingerprints, and thus they must have been looking for him from at least the afternoon of 2nd November or the morning of the 3rd. He might then have seemed a rather suitable candidate for the smash-murder-and-grab theory that the opening pages of this saga suggested. What we were at first told about a generically black man in the laundrette may possibly have been a hint of that, or it may just be a red herring.
When AK accused Lumumba, the police had every reason to bring him in, not only because of what she said but also because of the phone evidence. (Did his phone go to the baseball pitch that night or did it not? It doesn't really matter now.) BUT they would have established within minutes that PL's prints didn't match any in the house, were different from those of RGm, and also have deduced that AK was probably accusing one black man to shield another with whom she must, therefore, have had a guilty liaison.
Nevertheless it was very useful to have PL in custody. The police went out of their way to tell all the media that the case was now closed. They knew it wasn't (even if PL had been involved in some remote way, which they might well have believed) , because they had RG's fingerprints still to account for.
This sent a false signal to RG (who was reading every news bulletin he could find) that he was safe, and they hoped that he would become careless about using his facebook or contacting his friends etc, so that that they would be able to trace his whereabouts.
It also sent a false signal to AK that she was believed, hoping to spur her to other incriminating inconsistancies.
Why did AK choose to incriminate PL? That needs no deep psychology to explain. When probing her 'alibis' they would have focused on her texts/calls to PL. They may also have asked her about the 'black man' seen running away from the house. That was a connection she could use, even if involuntarily, knowing that all the time she had to distance herself from any knowledge of RG. So it was easy to tell almost the truth, in which she had only to substitute PL when she meant RG -- after all, one black man's much the same as another, especially when there are so few around in a country where one isn't running for president... And of course to distance herself from any direct involvement.
What followed was a brilliant piece of detective strategy. Of course, the extent to which the police were cynical in continuing to hold PL will only emerge later. He will, I hope, be able to claim compensation. But his bar will be famous, and he will eventually profit from, as Frank at Perugia-Shock has stated.
In any case, when the ILE top brass -- several of them -- said so repeatedlythat the case was closed with PL'ss arrest, they knew perfectly well that it wasn't. They still had RG's prints in all the important places. And before too long, they got him precisely in the way they'd planned, even if it was a rather close call.
P.S. I forgot to say that the fact that they were looking for RG before he was found got out in the most obvious way: his associates whom they had questioned talked to reporters. Sad how the media obstruct the course of the law...
DLW
Considering only 3 prints were found in the whole cottage I would imagine that then cleaning 'fairy' had been busy on kitchen and eating thing
LW
Minotaur | 02.18.08 - 2:39 pm |"when the ILE top brass -- several of them -- said so repeatedlythat the case was closed with PL'ss arrest, they knew perfectly well that it wasn't"
In support of that are the postings of our own commenter Oceania88, whose son is in Perugia, and days before Rudy's name hit the press, the ILE barged into his (the son's) shared flat, aggressively asking questions about Rudy.
DLW,
Funny, I was just thinking about the question of dishes lying around, and wondering if any crime scene photos might shed light on that. I think Rudy stated that he drank straight from a bottle, which I understood to be juice of some kind (orange juice maybe?). Would Rudy have done the dishes but left his feces in the toilet? Were the dishes done? Was there a lone wine glass in the sink or nothing at all? These are all intriguing questions.
Minotaur,
I was also thinking about the police laying a trap to lure Rudy into captivity or lull him into a false sense of security. But I felt I was being naive. You lay this out so clearly. Thanks. I remember reading, after the fact,that the police had the prints from the bedroom and when they ran them, lo and behold, it was Rudy's face that came up on the screen. The statement "case closed" has been cited again and again to support the theory of police incompetency in this case, but your argument makes perfect sense. Didn't the police even get a friend of Rudy's to have a Skype conversation with him from the police station? In that conversation, Rudy says there were other people at the cottage that night. He also says, when asked about the broken window and the clean-up, that it must have been Amanda and Raffaele, because he fled.
JohnT,
I have read your posts which are always long and descriptive. I appreciate them greatly. Here are my reasons why I believe that RS was with AK the entire time. And I realize that it may seem a bit illogical. First, both their cellphones were turned off simultaneously before the murder and then magically turned back on in the morning. Secondly, his DNA is on the brassiere of Meredith(A wash you might say because that could be part of the cover up, agreed) However, RS said he was on his computer(His alibi), however, if it is show(and it has already been reported that there was no activity until the following morning) that he was not on it, that implies that he was somewhere else because that IS his alibi. Thirdly, he missed both a telephone call from his Father as well as a text message(Father and son were tight) Now if he does not have an alibi that can be corroborated and his DNA is in the cottage, most specifically, on the clothing of the victim, then he must have been there. No person can be in two different places at the same time.
DLW
Considering only 3 prints were found in the whole cottage I would imagine that then cleaning 'fairy' had been busy on kitchen and eating thing
LW
Love Wolf | 02.18.08 - 2:50 pm |
Only three prints? Go back to the reports between 2 and 5 November: on the phones; on the front door, in MK's bedroom....
Laura Dinah Palomo. moon. This is my facebook http://www.facebook.com/profile....p?
id=1051940674
This is my face: http://www.facebook.com/album.ph...9&
id=1051940674
========
I am not sure that the kids in jail now had anything to do with the murder of poor Meredith Kercher, or if it was something all together more dark & evil happened in that house. I do not know.
==========
Peace love & empathy,
Laura Palomo
DLW,
From what I have read, no trace of alcohol or drugs was found in the body of Meredith Kercher from the autopsy.
I realised too late, I am sorry for thinking them to be guilty
bcpi
I’m just going by the leaked autopsy report where Lalli had put a hard number of .043% BAC. I presume that may be one of the reasons why he got canned, since this info wasn’t previously known by the outside world. I believe a previous report either said there was none or trace amounts. Unless this is one of those translation snafu’s again, or a decimal point error in this new report. Not impossible. Drugs were ruled out, period.
Sorry Minotaur
I missed the word Amanda off, there were I believe only 3 of her prints and NONE in her own bedroom....
Addendum to the above. I think it’s safe to assume that if alcohol was detected, it wasn’t enough to affect Meredith’s judgment.
Minotaur | 02.18.08 - 2:39 pm |
Makes perfect sense.
Loz, take it easy.
DLW,
I'm starting to get a little confused about the alcohol issue, but if it is what I think it is, then this would be compatible with one glass of wine, consumed with a little food, by a woman of Meredith's height and weight. If she had had just a little bit more and decided to drive, she could have gotten a DUI in Italy or France if stopped.
But I am no expert. Pinecone provided a useful link on Saturday night(in this thread)that allows you to measure BAC based on consumption amounts, food, time frame, gender, etc.
SB
I think you explained the BAC issue pretty well if the .04% is correct, which I think it is. One glass of wine for Meredith, which is not a party drinker. I know the USA limit used to be .1%, and then dropped to .08%. Italy seems to have a low standard (.05) compared to the USA, if the penalties are similar. This seems to be what I call alcohol creep downwards for driving purposes. I’m social drinker, and I don’t believe I ever go above .05, and I don‘t feel any different.
But if she did consume even 1 glass at the flat, I think it is a legitimate reason to suspect that there was a small gathering there in the evening, not necessarily good news for AK/RS, and where did the alcohol come from. Also the time frame may need adjusted slightly. I’m not quit sure if the prosecutors wanted to make their suspicions known yet.
Skep
I wouldn't get too wound up about the exact figures.
Street word has it that in the UK, most people can drink 2 glasses of wine, 2 pints of ordinary strength beer or 2 standard measure double spirits before they risk exceeding the driving limit of 80mg.(I'm not suggesting that you try it but I can tell you from a personal experience some years ago - I was below 80mg on two pints of beer).
The previous evening Merediith had been Halloween partying around the bars of Perugia with her friends in what was probably a pretty late night affair.
She may well have had some residual alcohol in her system and when she left for home from Robyn's place before 9.00pm she explained that she was tired.
A glass of wine was probably all she needed to bring her up to 43mg and does not an alcoholic make. My daughter (now 26) has long been able to drink one glass of wine without my noticing much effect.
Rather than dwell on quantity, I am wondering whether she was on her own or did she have that drink in company.
Thanks Brian and DLW,
The only reason I was confused is that we seemed to have established what the reading meant and then it was called into question by u_gene. Plus, in the original Italian it said grams and not miligrams. Anyway, for now it appears that a moderate amount of alcohol was consumed after Meredith returned home on November 1. I had one glass on Saturday night with a little food and tested myself on Pinecone's link, and I was at 43 on the nose. (However, I was not on my nose in the least).
Anyway, I don't wish to imply anything about the victim's drinking. This seems like a perfectly normal thing to have done. Kermit and I were speculating about whether she did this alone or in the company of others. As you say Brian, that is the real issue.
Specks? Never said any such thing. Please do not attribute things to me I never said.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 1:39 pm
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^666 if 6 was 9
Okay, don't get your knickers in a twist, I was testing you, you sound like someone I know.
seattleite | 02.18.08 - 1:39 pm
But I hope you find your elephant turd lumps of DNA soon
Traduco | 02.18.08 - 1:07 pm |
I meant that the Perugian prison isn't grim, the others I know nothing about.
But, Amanda has been kept apart you know. I've read about it, for her safety. They are vulnerable prisoners you know and the state has the duty to protect them, they are involved in not only murder but a sex crime, possibly, this means that many prisoners don not like that, and may hurt any one of them if they were put on a wing where everyone associates, where Amanda has been, she does not assovciate with everyone. For the reason of her safety.
So, then, the Rome prison has private pool in the cell, caviar in an automatic dispenser, manicurist pops over, choice of Thai or Indian massage, French or Italian cuisine, I may have to go and get some parkig offences down there.
Bell ringing: Sauna time folks
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 3:19 pm
Hi BPCL, thanks.
No, I don't think it's illogical what you think.
As far as I heard, there hasn't been a definite conclusion about whether his computer was used or not, they're working on all computers. I suppose part or all of what is found out may be revealed before court time.
Your reasoning why you see Raffaele as having been present, together at the murder scene:
1/ cellphones turned off and on at same time
2/ DNA Sollecito on Meredith's bra
3/ Sollecito stated he had been on computer
4/ He said he had a call from dad but though the call had come in he had not taken it
5/ Text message he also didn't respond to
Based on that, 5 points, I can agree, it looks suspiciously as though he hasn't been straight-up either, he could have been at home as he said, if the things he said had turned out to fit, but, similarly to Amanda, his tales do not meet the mark either.
If he then was there with Amanda, it makes it slightly weirder, how Guede got into doing what he did to Meredith.
Put it this way BP, if Guede had forced Meredith and he was on his way to raping her, I think she definitely would have resisted hard, if he had not had a knife. It's the knife that must have caused her, to have no signs of Guede violating her. There being no signs of force, it's the knife that terrified her, don't you think too? I do.
I know, if it was me, I would be very scared if someone, in anger, started waving a knife around at me, I'd be very cautious about making any false moves, it's just so not a joke.
I mean, even on the street if someone waved a knife about, it's different to them just using punching or kicking because you already know death is close by, real close, with a knife in the action, you'd be scared to have it used on you, you back off and you don't push anything.
If the other two were not involved but there, then I believe they would be free now, by their own words, but because something else has gone on, they aren't able to produce what is needed for them to walk away.
If they had been there but not involved then they'd have told all, right away, about Guede. Guede, who was definitely right there in Meredith's room.
Somehow, I think the place turns into mayhem, madness and mayhem, in that way, it saw Guede violating Meredith but I cannot see him managing that, and holding a knife to Meredith and getting her clothes off too.
That points to him having had help, somehow, it also means, the help he had, was with the knife, and that way, those with the knife didn't touch Meredith.
I reckon, the cleaning up process, was to hide the evidence of three of them having been in close proximity to one another, and not only that, but that without the cleaning, there'd have been fresh traces of everything and everyone, not just from the 3 of them, but from Meredith too. Thus from the four of them together. All outside Meredith's room.
There can't be many other reasons why they'd have needed to clean the rest of the house.
They may have been debating whether to continue cleaning and then to clean up Meredith's room.
But I don't think so. For the reason of them thinking there would be hardly anything of them in Meredith's room. If they had not known or thought this and based it on their not having hardly been in her room, then there would have been little point in cleaning all the rest.
The reason Amanda wanted and needed her room cleaned, I reckon would be because otherwise Guede's trail of evidence would have led right to there, to the kitchen too. She didn't bother cleaning that toilet/bathroom because that wasn't her room, and, as we've seen, how she tried to frame Patrick up, and even said stuff about Sollecito, she would then have purposely left the evidence from Guede to lead away from herself. She had imagined there'd have been no way he'd have got caught. Without him getting caught, their alibis would have been nice and snug. Better than now anyway. The case is pretty much blown. Think how it is for the police to hear her saying they hit her, when they did not, to them it means, shit look at this, she's even saying that.In that way, as far as that goes, her doing those things, will make them know, that way, that they have the right people in custody.
Amanda and Sollecito didn't bank on Guede being a registered crook already, having had his fingerprints taken.
If the police had not had his prints, it'd have looked good for them, if Amanda had not told the bull about Sollecito too, and, if they'd have had more time to coordinate their alibis, they might have had a chance, but, even then, it's just all too much. Sollecito's DNA would have still been found on Meredith's bra. Amanda's undried blood would still have been found. The madness of there not being hardly a fingerprint of Amanda in her entire place, all of it would still have pointed to guilt.
bpcl | 02.18.08 - 3:19 pm
It could mean that a whole lot happened outside Meredith's room before it got wicked, and washed in blood. Could mean that nearly all of it took place outside Meredith's room and then the final stuff happened fast, inside her room.
The part with the knife, just as Clint Van Zandt said, could have happened in a flash, a)threat, then b)infliction, and c)death.
That way, it is possible for Amanda and Raffaele to have not left traces in Meredith's room.
Whilst Guede had been all over Meredith physically, one of the other two, may have subdued her, by threatening her with the knife.
It may be that one of them went in that flash berserk and the knife did what it did and that is when Guede stopped.
Later when he was long gone, Sollecito and Amanda may have worked out that the way things looked, it didn't look like a stranger had come in and it didn't look enough like a rape, so Raffaele cut of Meredith's bra. I see no logic behind a rapist cutting off a bra when the victim is not just a rape victim but is in the process of dying right in front of you. So that cutting off of the bra, to me at least, can only mean, it was part of a cover-up to make things look like a burglar, an outsider who had raped Meredith.
If that is not so, it means that one of the three or more, is even worse than anyone imagined and got kicks in a sexual way, even from a dying person. Necrophiliacs have this, some of them.
I do not think that about these three, so I see that bra and the not taking it off, and it being cut off instead, after it is already absolutely drenched in blood, having just one purpose, and that is to deceive, and mislead.
I think the bra might have been cut off when Meredith was already dead, even the next morning.
I think Amanda and Sollecito, could have covered Meredith up the next morning, not right when the crime had happened, because they'd have been in a state of utter madness. But when they cleaned up, who knows, they may have had rubber gloves on, and only did what they felt they had to in that room and got out, locking it up as well. It's said it's a female thing to do, cover up a body, but they may have done it for the selfish reason of not wanting to have to see her, I think the latter.
It may be that it all happened real fast, and it can also be the case that Sollecito was hardly in Meredith's room. It still could be that Amanda was the one who was angry and who knifed Meredith and that Sollecito assisted in the cover-up.
You see, based on what she has already demonstrated as to how low she is willing to swoop down to, then if she had not great guilt, and it had been Sollecito who stabbed, and she knew that, she'd have told on him by now. I think if he didn't stab Meredith to death, he'd love to tell but he knows he can't because then he is sunk too, even though he'd have been a good boy and out of the three finally talked sense and owned up. He still would not be walking off and driving his nice car and shit, he just knows what he's gone and done.
And his dad, is coercing him, into not owning up, because dad doesn't want to ever believe that about his son. His dad, was not a bad man, it is not just Raffaele then who is going down but the entire family, dad can't say proudly, my son, the computer genius, the proud dad, just like he is still trying to do now, be proud. There's a lot of pride at stake and that stands in the way of truth. Status quo, prestige, self-confidence, achievement, wealth, good name, ego, pride, success, all main players here. Raffaela in that way is like Mr Universe carrying the world now, on his shoulders, his dad's world and the rest of the family's name, his sister son-of-a-gun, she's a Carabineiri, a military police woman, she will not be the lowest of rank either.
This is just possibilities because on the other hand, I think Sollecito is a real weirdo, I saw a picture of him, he has glaring eyes (not a picture seen often) like some kind of raving lunatic. He may be better at the art of deception than Amanda is.
He blames Amanda right, and not just he blames her, but daddy does too, yet, to me, he looks like a real nerd, just following Amanda about and he looks like he was having plenty of fun. In that light they are equally mean to one another now.
He is not a simple mind though, he's not the guy with the lowest grades at school, so, he may just be more collected and devious than Amanda.
One thing he has done that is sensible, is keep his cake hole shut, more you say, more someone has to work on.
"I can't see them having grown big time there, cultivation is punished heavily in Italy".
John T | 02.18.08 - 7:48 am |
Actually Italian legislation makes a difference between detention of drugs (hashish and marijuana, "light drugs")for personal use and detention with the purpose of dealing. The first goes unpunished up to 1 gr of THC, but any quantity above is no longer considered for personal use, and may turn into a dealing charge (a felony) Growing plants is therefore a serious offense.
As for the price of hashish, it depend on where one buys it-on the streets can easily go up to 15 euro /gr, if one buys it from a "friend dealer", it costs less, but surely not less that 8-10 euros/gr.Not direct info of course but got through a knowledgable source.
nicki | 02.18.08 - 8:30 am |
Oops. How illegal is illegal?
Shop Owner is Matteo Filla, VAT IT02942940962, CP 16, 38062 Arco (TN), Italy
Street word has it that in the UK, most people can drink 2 glasses of wine, 2 pints of ordinary strength beer or 2 standard measure double spirits before they risk exceeding the driving limit of 80mg.---Brian
Oof! That would put me under the table. The legal limit is a good guage, but individual responses to that level of alcohol are also important. I guess we have no way of knowing the effect that amount of alcohol would have on MK, but it not only suggest possibilities already discussed on whether or not she was drinking with others, but also possibilities on how the drinking might have affected her interaction with them.
Sparrow | 02.18.08 - 10:54 pm |"most people can drink 2 glasses of wine, 2 pints of ordinary strength beer or 2 standard measure double spirits before they risk exceeding the driving limit of 80mg.---Brian
...
Oof! That would put me under the table."
Sparrow, I hope you weren't thinking that Brian was saying all of that together, just one of the pairs!
-
Were there any reports on how much weed was found in the boys flat in the lower level of the cottage?
No Kermit, but now that you mention it, double oof! I'm such a lightweight, even one of the pairs would do that. It's quite an economical condition.
JohnT,
Okay, good analysis is all I can say.
John T et al...
"Amanda and Sollecito didn't bank on Guede being a registered crook already, having had his fingerprints taken".
This is spot on, like the mobiles being found they would have been hopeing and praying that Guede was never found.... safe and snug they would have been apart from they were not expereinced criminals, they thought they were clever... I am pleased to say that they are not (look at the alibis and lies) which will be there undoing.
Regarding RS being a bit of a nerd, did I also read somewhere that he was on medicince also for some disorder??
Has anyone got a link to that. Also taking drugs and alcohol with any medication (was it anti depressent) is not normally recommended... just a thought... also may explain the closeness of his father watching over him...
JohnT,
Just some food for thought. Both AK and RS have said that they did not kill Meredith Kercher; and we know that should be taken with a grain of salt. RS on the other hand, has never said in any of his statements that, that he did not kill Meredith Kercher. Sometimes, silence speaks volumes. What say you on this matter?
Anon was me.. sorry
John T... Regrading your exchanges with Seattliete I also felt that she may be someone that I known on the blogsphere too by the choice or words and tone.... ;o)
bpcl....
Good point.... I also suspect that these buggers may even pass a lie detector test due to the number of 'half' thruths they have said in the multitude of versions... I actually think that even though they were all there.. they blame each other for what happended and will not accept any accountability.... AK probably blames Meredith for it all....
I think at this stage.. they have dug their won pit and all 3 are EQUALLY accountable..... they had a chance to come clean and not lie.. they did not choose that option....
There only hope is to talk now....
abdar | 02.19.08 - 2:16 am | "Were there any reports on how much weed was found in the boys flat in the lower level of the cottage?"
I have seen very little on they boys' flat. I was wanting to do a floorplan, but have little (or nothing) to go on, apart from exterior observations.
Also, the business about "a garden" in general, and marijuana plants specifically, I don't have a feel for how many plants. My impression, as someone said above, is probably that they didn't exactly have a plantation or anything.
We've commented above that the victim's boyfriend has declared that he bought marijuana in the main square, which was just a few minutes away. Also, that sort of sales (I assume) would not be "wholesale", but piecemeal, little by little, following one's use. So, while there may have been weed down there, I don't think it would have been much.
That said (and I haven't thought about this before), in addition to whatever other possible reason for which the downstairs flat was broken into (eg. trying to associate the victim's boyfriend or his housemates with the crime ....), in addition there could be an intention to walk off with some weed (even if it was a small quantity).
... If any weed was actually there. I haven't read any specific reports to that regard. Although I don't suppose that the boys would file a police report for stolen marijuana if that happened.
-
Love Wolf,
I admire your thoughts about the case. Meredith Kercher has some really great people on this blog like you, working for her. I could be wrong and this is not meant to show any disrespect, but I do not believe any of the three people currently in custody for this vicious crime are capable of telling the truth. And you can see ample evidence of this in the kaleidoscope of there public statements.
It will be rather, their lack of corroborative alibis and the strength of the silent, crime scene evidence that will prove where all three were that fateful night when each of them decided to let narcissism control their destinies.
Bpcl..
Feelings are mutual.. it is great catching up on the posting overnight from my office and I am never dissapointed....
The word kaleidoscope is a good one, as what the 3 have created they have now started to drag their families and friends into the same spinning and mixing colours...
Not only do I believe that they are all guilty I also believe that they will happily destroy the reputations of their families and friends if it gives them even a glimmer of hope for murdering Meredith.
I have no doubts in this case.
Only grey bits are the timelines and also who did what both pre, during and cleaning.
The Italian police I have faith in.
I actually have faith in Guede being the one that breaks the 'code'
He has no direct family, no close loved ones, no one singing his praises about what a wonderful son/daughter he is...
I think (and hope) that he sees the light especially if it was not him holding the knife during the assault....
His team are VERY quiet and I would not be surprised if things are going on behind the scenes and this may come as a very big shock to the RS and AK camps...... and would destroy their 'spinning' straightaway.
my 2 cents on the weed issue
you don't need to be a genius to grow quality cannabis from decent seeds (legally available everywhere in italy) - a single outdoor plant can easily yield 100+ grams, more than 1k euros - end of october is usual time for harvest ...and november 1st best time to steel drying, unattended weed.
I would not be surprised if RG, warned by AK about recent harvest and empty flat, went to the cottage just for that, than MK arrived ...
u_gene
AK did not know Guede... her words... so your suggestion is a non starter.
No if she told the truth and said that she did know Guede your suggestion may have substance...
u_gene | 02.19.08 - 6:05 am |
I don't really agree with that theory as it doesn't justify the cat's blood on the wall downstairs (it wasn't a Dobercat, or anything - that said, what does explain the cat's blood, if it's true?), nor - more importantly - explain the noise / shouting / screaming heard by different neighbours into the night (when Rudy was out of there by 22.30 h, to clean up and go to the Domus discotheque). Nor the partial undressing of the victim (unless if Rudy gets sexually excited when girls interrupt him in the middle of petty thefts). And the rock through the window from the inside ...
In any case, there's another theory for the stack. What this theory implies is Amanda knowing Rudy.
Kermit | 02.19.08 - 6:36 am |
"Rudy was out of there by 22.30 h, to clean up" ...
I mean ==> to clean himself up, for the disco
I do not see the "clean up & cover up" in both flats *after* the murder being incompatible with Rudy (or someone else) breaking into the boy's flat *before* the murder
Okay, u_gene, I understand, you're separating the two "sessions" in two individual moments.
(But then the clean-up / noise team needs a motivational event to go over and find the terrible deeds that were done, freak-out, clean-up, smear cats blood or catsup, etc.)
I don't control the smileys enough to know if there's one for contemplative irony. Sorry if my comment seemed negative ... theft has been and still is one of the possible criminal motivations for the Giallo - if it wasn't just stoned, clumsy kids who screwed up in a practical joke gone bad (which doesn't make the victim's death any less murder).
... if we have looked at a measly 250€ as motivation for killing someone, then certainly any other item of value - including marijuana - lying around the house upstairs or downstairs, would fit into that type of motivation.
For my ten pence worth or even Euro 250 worth I think that the weed had nothing to do with the crime apart from the fact that the accsed had been smoking weed and were drunk....
This was a group act both the crime and poor attempt at clean up and staging the fact that a break in had occured when quite clearly the culprits walked in through the front door and left through the front door.
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 7:13 am | "This was a group act"
I tend to think that way as well. The only thing which we're missing (which is a lot, everything ...) is detailed, scientific / technical evidence.
And with that evidence, going in the direction of one aspect of what u_gene was saying (tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth), is that there are different moments in the Giallo, different crimes, and possibly different persons with different levels of 1) direct criminal involvement, 2) enabling involvement (which isn't necessarily criminal unless if there was pre-meditation), and 3) knowledge of each moment/crime.
Kermit, yes, that's my point (but no "contemplative irony" on my side and no smileys either- just excessive and wrong use of brackets!).
My problem is that I do not understand if the break-in downstairs (in the boys flat) actually occurred or not.
If this has been ruled out, the "weed theory" is nonsense. Otherwise, this could be certainly not the motivation for the murder, but maybe the reason RG went to the cottage in the first place.
u_gene | 02.19.08 - 8:05 am | "I do not understand if the break-in downstairs (in the boys flat) actually occurred or not."
There's Italian TV news reports from the time of the crime which show ILE clearing broken glass from the entrance door to the boys' flat. ((strange, as to get to the door with glass, you have to open an iron barred door, which doesn't appear damaged - ie. I thought the lower flat was accessed with keys))
-----------------
Change of subject:
When RS's DNA was found on the victim's bra clasp, his father said:
"Mio figlio nella stanza del delitto non c'era"
("my son wasn't there in the room of the crime")
http://www.voceditalia.it/artico...ele%
20Sollecito
http://tinyurl.com/2bshfz
Weeks earlier, when he first visited his son in jail Dr. S. said:
"Me lo ha detto anche stamattina: papa', io in quella stanza non ci sono stato. Quella notte io ero a casa mia."
("He told me this morning: Papa, I wasn't in that room. That night I was at my house.")
http://www.padovanews.it/content...ent/view/21836/
I know you have to be careful about possibly interpreting quotes out of context, but it's strange that on more that one occasion, Dr. S./RS put emphasis on the victim's room and RS not being in it. It would be more natural to say "the house". Is that a twisted message where he's not denying presence at some point in the cottage on that night?
Also, him being at home on the night of the crime can be interpreted in different ways: home to sleep, home to start downloading but not necessarily for a jaunt down to girlfriend's place ... etc.
-
Kermit et al...
Do you think that the prosecution would be sitting on some evidence 'time bombs' i.e. phone records, CCTV, they have hinted at this but not produced it yet. Perhaps it does not exist perhaps it does, mayble this is all part of the game to unhinge the defendants to try and get one to break the code.
I actually have faith in Guede being the one that breaks the 'code'
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 4:05 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's what I have been thinking.
About the stillness too, like you said.
Because he is the one who could be blamed for all, at the point it becomes clear that the case is that he will be taking the blame for all, he'd not accept it then as he'd have nothing to lose by defending anyone else anymore, and everything to gain by starting to tell the truth.
If a defendant is guilty but does not reveal that to his/her lawyer, then the lawyer can only take steps according to what is known of his defendant, defending based on believing that the client is innocent because of the client having stated innocence.
If the defendant was to tell the lawyer, I did it, I did this I did that, I am in fact guilty. The lawyer, for reasons of ethics, which they are sworn to uphold, cannot pretend not to know. Sometimes a lawyer though sensing that the person being defended is guilty will not want to be told about it by the client, as soon as the lawyer is told, the lawyer cannot proceed to defend when being aware that the defendant is guilty. If it ever became known that a defendant had revealed the truth and the lawyer had kept it a secret the lawyer would be struck off.
That's why, Guede too, has admitted nothing to his lawyers. If later, in court, the lawyer tells him, "Hey Rudy, it looks bad for you, do you realize they are going to convict you alone, for the lot?"
That will be the moment, Rudy Guede will, in all probability, decide to help himself. Reveal facts to his lawyers. He can help himself -even if he was the killer but was not acting alone - by telling what was what.
I had promised Kermit that I would comment on this aspect when he released the powerpoint, having as soon as looking at it realised that it was most important. I am referring tp Powerpoint Gallo-Floorplan-Updated-Pt0a...the powerpoint that draws attention to the lamps.
The positioning of these lamps convinces me of several things. The lamp from AK's room is on the floor by the head of Meredith's bed whilst the other (I presume the lamp is Meredith's) is at the foot of the bed behind the door in the powerpoint shot.
What at first glance the picture reminds me of, is someone braking a bracelet/necklace and the bits going everywhere or dropping a contact lense...and having to scan every square inch of the ground under direct light to find it. This is just a thought that came into my mind.
What these lamps do for me is disolve any idea of this being carriied out by a single 'lone wolf' individual. If they were placed there 'during' the assault...we would have to imagine our 'lone wolf' saying to Meredith "We need some more light...just sit there like a good girl and I'll be right back." As if a no longer restrained Meredith would have...not a chance. If they were placed during the attack someone would have had to have voiced the desire for light whilst someone 'else' then obliged and went to get it and put them both in place.
Otherwise, the lamps were put in place only for the 'Clean-Up'. Their light being very close and directly onto the floor would have been ideal for catching small traces of things to be cleaned up that may have otherwise have been missed. However, the evidence and timelines in regard to Rudy give us a picture of him getting out of that house rather quickly, not stopping to set up lights and make a nose to floor examination of the floor for micro-traces. This in any case speaks of some one with a completely different mind to Guede...someone concious of forensic evidence and its importance. Guede on the other hand hardly seemed to care...leaving forensics everywhere and of the most obvious kind. I cannot imagine Guede doing this and not then flushing the toilet fo9r example, or taking the pillow case that was simply covered with his prints. Guede's forensic evidence was obvious and required no lamps. That left someone else....someone who had the time, the inclination and most of all the need. It also leaves me to ask...what was there before, but is not there now as a result of that nose to floor clean-up?
Great obervation Michael and the lamps are another of a long list of evidence that points to clean up not only in MK's room,... but also..
1) AK Room
2) RS flat
I think that the clean (and tidy up of the clean up if you know what I mean)had not been concluded... and the morning following the timely arrival of the Postale Police changed the gameplan.... Alibis had ot been honed... appropriate telephone call had not been made..... etc etc
John T - I have a little faith in Guede doing the decent thing in this case.... Did you see how his defence team reacted when RS Team said the shoe print came from a Guede shoe... the reaction and intention was immediate... if you throw stones at Guede he will lob great big bloody bolders straight back if you are not careful... since then there has been a period of quiet from all camps I suspect until 1st April now.....
Go on Guede... tell us what happended!
Kermit et al...
Do you think that the prosecution would be sitting on some evidence 'time bombs' i.e. phone records, CCTV, they have hinted at this but not produced it yet. Perhaps it does not exist perhaps it does, mayble this is all part of the game to unhinge the defendants to try and get one to break the code.
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 8:59 am | #
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The prosecutor has been angry about leaks.
Evidence only has to be revealed once the suspects are charged.
Anything released officially, is part of showing a certain transparency this to mirror and meet the standards of the adversarial system brought in to force in Italy, the inquisitorial system saw total power in the hands of the state. Nothing used to be revealed, everything was done in secrecy. It was chillingly scary for Italians. Because the old system was used so long, old habits may die hard. Still, official releases have shown that there are reasons for keeping the defendants in prison and revealed what the various teams are doing, revealed that forensics are doing this, other units that, but the details, do not have to be released.
They are only going to reveal what they have to in order to satisfy the idea of transparency and validate the reasons for the refusal to release the suspects.
Once they are charged the witnesses registered for the oprosecution will be under obligation to answer any cross-examninations from defence teams, and all evidence asked for must be provided, unless it would injure the case for the prosecution, but he judges would have to decide on that question.
There is no obligation to reveal anything now but the fashhion is to allow openness, yet, not at the cost of the case and off getting the guilty culprits the punishments they deserve.
The prosecutions team may have information that could come into play if one of the three state a certain thing, that way, they catch themselves out if the information the prosecutor has refutes what is said.
I had promised Kermit that I would comment on this aspect when he released the powerpoint, having as soon as looking at it realised that it was most important. I am referring tp Powerpoint Gallo-Floorplan-Updated-Pt0a...the powerpoint that draws attention to the lamps.
The positioning of these lamps convinces me of several things. The lamp from AK's room is on the floor by the head of Meredith's bed whilst the other (I presume the lamp is Meredith's) is at the foot of the bed behind the door in the powerpoint shot.
What at first glance the picture reminds me of, is someone braking a bracelet/necklace and the bits going everywhere or dropping a contact lense...and having to scan every square inch of the ground under direct light to find it. This is just a thought that came into my mind.
What these lamps do for me is disolve any idea of this being carriied out by a single 'lone wolf' individual. If they were placed there 'during' the assault...we would have to imagine our 'lone wolf' saying to Meredith "We need some more light...just sit there like a good girl and I'll be right back." As if a no longer restrained Meredith would have...not a chance. If they were placed during the attack someone would have had to have voiced the desire for light whilst someone 'else' then obliged and went to get it and put them both in place.
Otherwise, the lamps were put in place only for the 'Clean-Up'. Their light being very close and directly onto the floor would have been ideal for catching small traces of things to be cleaned up that may have otherwise have been missed. However, the evidence and timelines in regard to Rudy give us a picture of him getting out of that house rather quickly, not stopping to set up lights and make a nose to floor examination of the floor for micro-traces. This in any case speaks of some one with a completely different mind to Guede...someone concious of forensic evidence and its importance. Guede on the other hand hardly seemed to care...leaving forensics everywhere and of the most obvious kind. I cannot imagine Guede doing this and not then flushing the toilet fo9r example, or taking the pillow case that was simply covered with his prints. Guede's forensic evidence was obvious and required no lamps. That left someone else....someone who had the time, the inclination and most of all the need. It also leaves me to ask...what was there before, but is not there now as a result of that nose to floor clean-up?
Each day and night... AK and RS must be worried senseless that Guede tals.. it is the one thing that no matter how much is spent on the PR machine, legal experts that they cannot predict... it is like a ticking timebomb.... if Guede reaches a point where looks like he is taking the full flak for this then there is no way he will accept that....
u_gene: ref. evidence of breakin in the boys' flat, here's an Italian TV news video from Nov.2 evening.
At 30" and more at 1'00" you can see the ILE at the boys' flat door. In earlier viewings (weeks ago) I thought I saw ILE removing broken glass at 1'00". Now I'm not so sure, maybe they are just measuring an intact window frame in the door.
So, it's not clear how the boys' flat was entered: with keys or breaking in.
By the way, I believe that's Mignini at 55", with the barbeque in the background, on the boys' level.
http://video.centrodiascolto.it/...ideo/
209002.wmv
-----------------------------
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 8:59 am |
LW, given the stakes involved for all (much to win and much to lose, in all senses), I'm sure that Bobby Fisher, Boris Spassky, Karpov and Kasparov are all team advisors, and that there's much in the way of evidence and manoeuvres yet to be seen.
-
Thanks Kermit
My point that I am making badly is...
1) Ak and RS left his evidence at the scene despite them undertaking the cleaning duty
2) Ak even point at some of the evidence to anyone that wanted to listen 'poo in loo'
3) RS and his father stated when Guede captured that they 'have the real killer'
4) RS experts stating that it was Guede print not RS
They have a problem where AK and RS teams want Guede to take the full blame for everything (even cleaning I suspect).... and sadly the truth is not that simple and if AK and RS were there and it was not the act of a lone wolf... then I think the lone wolf will bite back!
and whilst this is all happening.. AK and RS are denying all knowledge of even knowing Guede........
Michael (UK) | 02.19.08 - 10:08 am |"What at first glance the picture reminds me of, is someone braking a bracelet/necklace and the bits going everywhere or dropping a contact lense"
Thanks Michael. I felt that two lamps on the floor was strange. It would be normal for the victim to have one by the head of her bed, but on the set of drawers/nighttable, not on the floor. And two on the floor?
I have no idea about DNA, bleach, etc. but I understand that bleaching shows up under flourescent lamps (???). The lamp behind the door: does it appear that it would have a "normal" incandescent bulb, or halogen, or flourescent ???. IE, I'm suggesting that maybe that lamp, in addition to being used to search for "contact lenses" (!!) (visual search), may have a bulb which could be useful for identifying forensic related material.
BTW, I just checked back at the Updated Floorplan, and Amanda's room seems to no longer have a reading lamp. No reading Harry Potter in bed.
-
Love Wolf | 02.19.08 - 10:20 am |"4) RS experts stating that it was Guede print not RS"
That little scuffle was most curious. All the RS team had to say was: RS uses a different model (not size) of Nike, so it can't be him.
Instead, they take it upon themselves to fulfill a prosecutorial (?) role by pointing a finger at RHG. The pointing was short lived as RHG's lawyers rapidly clarified that RHG would have had trouble squeezing his foot into that sized shoe.
I don't know much about criminal law etiquette amongst defence teams and lawyers, but I think that RS's smiling team crossed an invisible line there. They should just keep to defending their boy. Did they do it because of nerves? Beats me.
-
I think the 'scuffle' redefined some of the ground rules going forward.... and I will be surprised if there is a repeat as they know now it will get thrown back straight back at em!
Kermit -
As for flourescent bulbs I have no idea...I'm don't know how we could find out for sure.
One thing I feel I do know...Meredith didn't do this...I can think of no reason why Meredith would have placed the lamps so. Moreover, a tidy girl such as she would have put them back after 'whatever' she was doing...especially as one was plain in the way with the power cord for it having to go out undernerneath the door to the power socket and one didn't belong to her (being Amanda's).
Therefore, for me, the lamps were part of the clean-up....and the fact that they were left in place after says to me 'Hurry'.
Love Wolf wrote:
"Regarding RS being a bit of a nerd, did I also read somewhere that he was on medicince also for some disorder??
Has anyone got a link to that. Also taking drugs and alcohol with any medication (was it anti depressent) is not normally recommended... just a thought... also may explain the closeness of his father watching over him..."
**********************************
Love Wolf:
First, let me comment that your this new moniker of yours continues to make me laugh! I love it--it's just priceless.
As for RS and medication. I don't recall reading specifically about that. I DO seem to remember him suffering from panic attacks and that smoking pot seemed to help relieve this condition. Or, so he thought it did.
AND, as you write, if he were on some psychotropic medicine combined with whatever other substances he was using, who knows the behavioral outcome, given the possibility of drug potentiation (Def. of Potentiation: "When a combination of drugs produces effects that are greater than the additive sum of the effect of each drug." --i.e. 1+ 1 =3 or 5 or even more....)
My armchair psychoanalysis of Raffaele would have to include the impact of the death of his mother, just two short years ago.
I have seen no mention of the *CAUSE* of her death, but I have wondered about this. He also lost his beloved grandmother shortly after his mother's premature death.
As for his mother's cause of death one might assume *cancer* (or is that just me, because of the inordinate number of people I've lost to this killer. ;-(() But, it might have been something sudden; an accident?.....I certainly hope we can rule out a HOMICIDE :-(( Wouldn't THAT be a chilling, grim discovery!
But, no matter. The fall-out of this immense loss and the trauma of living through a loved one's fatal illness, especially difficult at his young age lingers on for survivors, long after the actual event. If grief is not properly "attended to", it can account for a host of problems of the psyche.
I also have read of at least one study that indicates physicians as a group have the greatest fear/inability to cope with/ death.
This may account for physicians entering the field of medicine in the first place, to want to "defeat death"
The whole focus of their profession is to heal, to fight AGAINST the enemy, death.
Death, at some level is a sign of professional failure.
And here is Raffaele's physician father, the urologist.
How soon after Raffaele's mother's death did he remarry? Less than two years, we know that. He was presumably romantically involved with wife #2 much earlier than that.
Imagine the impact of the death of two important maternal figures in Raffaele's life. And then his father's remarriage, all while he was away from home.
This armchair analyst (moi!)feels that there is a lot of unprocessed grief, perhaps understandable anger, confusion, abandonment, resentment of the new replacement "mother."
The father's frequent calling/contact with Raffaele may be a relatively recent phenomenon. I suspect it began to be more frequent and steady AFTER the mother's death. And may have been in response to the father's concern about Raffaele's change/response/lack of response to these two major losses. And his son's expressed or unexpressed anger at his Dad for "replacing" his mother.
And then there is the matter of his sister, a Carabiniere. . . I'd love to continue with this riveting armchair psychoanalysis and speculative profiling of RS, but I see that my 3:00 appointment has arrived....
-Traduco
Michael (UK) | 02.19.08 - 11:04 am |"the fact that they were left in place after says to me 'Hurry'."
The Postal Police weren't investigating anything when they arrived at Via Pergola 7 on Nov. 2 morning. ... Even if the gate at the street were open, they would be obliged to call the intercom/ringer, and wait for someone to reply. The door to the house is a stroll down the ramp and across the parking area. I can't imagine AK and RS just standing by their door (nor just standing at the gate to the street, nor in the parking area, nor anywhere else outside) waiting for something to happen.
I imagine that the Postal Police called on the interphone from the street (TV videos clearly show 2 such interphones by the street gate: one for the upper flat, and one for the lower flat), AK would have lifted the interphone, asked who it was, buzzed the gate open (if it wasn't already open), and the Postal Police would have strolled in, with no hurry.
That would have given a maximum of maybe a minute or not even that, to do an emergency shutdown of any hard-to-explain activity (if there were any being carried out).
That said, maybe I have it all wrong, and RS and AK were just standing outside. There wouldn't be much explanation as they weren't waiting for anyone.
Traduco
Great posting.... and I think one of the lovely ladies and also Valentines Day was the reason for my name change...
Do not forget ladies 29th Feb is arriving soon....
Do you think AK will be proposing to RS???
Kermit -
"That would have given a maximum of maybe a minute or not even that, to do an emergency shutdown of any hard-to-explain activity (if there were any being carried out).
That said, maybe I have it all wrong, and RS and AK were just standing outside. There wouldn't be much explanation as they weren't waiting for anyone."
I agree. Although, they were waiting for all the housemates to get home having called them back weren't they? I also feel they would have wanted to have been seen outside the house rather then inside by Filomena who I believe got there before the postal police.
MIchael
"I agree. Although, they were waiting for all the housemates to get home having called them back weren't they? I also feel they would have wanted to have been seen outside the house rather then inside by Filomena who I believe got there before the postal police".
-----------------------------
I would love to know who called who and when that morning and that is one piece of evidence that will be black on white based on phone records etc
Kermit and Michael,
For what it's worth, here's an excerpt from the judge's official report. If accurate, it answers two questions:
Where were AK and RS when the postal police arrived?
When did Filomena arrive?
"Extracts from the official judge's report on the murder of Meredith Kercher, obtained by the Telegraph
"On 2 November 2007 at 12.35pm persons from the Postal Police of Perugia went to Via della Pergola 7 in order to track down Romanelli Filomena, since in the same morning Mrs Lana Elisabetta had found on the lawn of the garden attached to her house, in Perugia, Via Sperandio 5b, two mobile phones of which one had the sim card of Vodafone 348 467 3711, belonging to the same Romanelli.
Upon reaching the destination the agents found outside the building on Via Della Pergola 7 two youths, identified as KNOX Amanda Marie, who lived at that address, and SOLLECITO Raffaele, who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri military police, called because on that morning they became aware of a window with the glass broken and had suspected a theft.
In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment."
Traduco: This armchair analyst (moi!)feels that there is a lot of unprocessed grief, perhaps understandable anger, confusion, abandonment, resentment of the new replacement "mother."
The father's frequent calling/contact with Raffaele may be a relatively recent phenomenon. I suspect it began to be more frequent and steady AFTER the mother's death. And may have been in response to the father's concern about Raffaele's change/response/lack of response to these two major losses. And his son's expressed or unexpressed anger at his Dad for "replacing" his mother...
I've tried to mention this from my armchair before:
RaffaSollecito's Favorites:
Film - Hamlet
Song - Sweet Dreams
Link
Hamlet: Wikipedia
Sweet Dreams: Link
Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas
Everybody's looking for something.
Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.
SB
From Timesonline 25/11/07
"It has also emerged that when postal police arived at the cottage the next morning to investigate two mobile phones found in a nearby garden and found Ms Kercher's body after breaking down her bedroom door, they also found Ms Kercher's clothes in the washing machine. Reports said the police heard the washing machine spinning to the end of its cycle as they arrived at the cottage at 1235. They also found that the cottage - apart from Ms Kercher's bedroom and the shared bathroom - had been "thoroughly cleaned with bleach".
Love Wolf -
"I would love to know who called who and when that morning and that is one piece of evidence that will be black on white based on phone records etc"
As well as the testimonies of Filomena and Laura themselves.
I would also love to see their respective testimonies in regard to the relationship between MK and AK. If MK was really fed up about AK's house keeping or lack of it, her housemates would have been the first people she would have grumbled to about it since they had common cause. The thing about grumbling about someone, once having voiced a problem about one thing about a person...they usually go on to 'Oh...and another thing!'
Micael,
I am sure not just Meredith would have been doing the grumbling about AK but also the other flatmates...
It sound like the cottage was a fun happy place until AK arrived...
I'm not sure when they expected the first of the next flatmates to arrive. Or to when Meredith's parents or friends to become overly concerned. Hoping against hope, they may have expected many more hours, or what was left of that day?? Maybe the next day. Even if done with the cleanup, more time before the discovery allows for more allibi's and time of death is made harder.
From Daily Mail.. take with a pinch of salt...
-----------------------------------
"The report says the entire focus of the investigation is on Amanda Knox and her boyfriend, Sollecito Raffaele.
The police have discovered that despite what Amanda said to police who arrived, she had not called the police to investigate a break-in but actually called the police after the 'Postal Police' had already arrived to return Romonelli's mobile phone.
The police believe that Amanda and Sollecito had "wished it to be thought they had been surprised outside the building where the murder was carried out."
In police interviews Amanda that she had seen Meredith at 1pm at their apartment with Sollecito Raffaele and that she saw her leave between 3pm and 4pm but did not know where she was going. Amanda claims that she stayed with Sollecito until 5pm, and that they went to his apartment, where they spent the whole night.
She said that when she returned to the apartment 11am the next day on the successive morning she found the door open, that she tried to call the housemates but had no response.
According to Amanda she found traces of blood in two bathrooms and that the water was full of faeces. She left the apartment at 11.30, closing the front door and locking it, and that she went back to Sollecito's apartment.
Skep -
"Upon reaching the destination the agents found outside the building on Via Della Pergola 7 two youths, identified as KNOX Amanda Marie, who lived at that address, and SOLLECITO Raffaele, who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri military police, called because on that morning they became aware of a window with the glass broken and had suspected a theft.
In the meantime, at 1pm, arrived Romanellli, the housemate of Knox who verified that nothing had been taken from the apartment."
Thanks for that...that clears that up since some reports I have seen placed Filomena there when the postal police arrived. However, I would have thought that they would have phoned Filomena before they did.
From Daily Telegraph.... RS clearly saying that they HAD NOT called the police..
___________________________________
"I was asking myself what could have happened and I went out to see if I could get in through Meredith's window. I tried to break down the door but I couldn't and so I decided to call my sister to get some advice because she is a police lieutenant.
"She told me to call 121 (the Italian emergency number) but in the meantime the postal police arrived.
"In my previous statement I told a load of rubbish because Amanda had convinced me of her version of the facts and I didn't think about the inconsistencies."
Love Wolf -
Yes, we certainly have had several different versions from RS.
From another source....
"The following lunchtime the Postal Police of Perugia visited Knox's flat because another flatmate's mobile phone (in recent use by Kercher) had been found in a neighbour's garden. They disturbed Sollecito and Knox, whose claim they were waiting for the Caribinieri was later shown to be false based on the timing of their call to the police".
Just changing the subject...just something I've been wanting to say. One other useful thing in cases such as this is 'Patterns of Behaviour'. There is certainly a pattern of behaviour that I feel, works against any idea of Meredith voluntarily engaginging in any sexual activity with Guede.
When we hear of Laura or Filomena being with their boyfriends we hear of them going away somewhere to be with them...rather then their bringing them back to the house. On the one report where Meredith's boyfriend speaks of them making love it was downstairs in his room. Even Amanda with RS it appears spent most evenings over at RS's to make love rather then the other way around. The impression I get from the behaviour of all the girls was that the house, for privacy reasons and perhaps others, was not considered suitable as a love nest.
I therefore believe, from that pattern of behaviour, that Meredith would not have engaged in voluntary sexual activity with Guede in that house...rather instead would have suggested his place. So, I therefore do not only find it likely that she would have engaged in sexual relations with Guede full stop...but even more so that she would have done so in that house.
Michael,
No problem. I've posted from that report a couple of times. I think it's important to stick with what the judges are working from insofar as possible. As we have seen, press/media reports contain some discrepancies. Note that this is an excerpt from that report. The translation is "word for word" but is at least understandable.
Love Wolf's source (can you tell us where this is from, LW?) is already a step removed from the judge's factual report--it says the postal police "disturbed" AK and RS, implying that they were up to no good. I'm not sure we can make this assumption on the basis of what's in the report. This needs to be taken as a journalist's slant on the information.
Your observation about the lamp is really interesting. When was it moved from AK's room to the victim's? Perhaps the roommates will be or have been questioned about that. People who share a flat are not unknown to share/trade stuff. Again, I think this is worth pursuing.
Skep -
"No problem. I've posted from that report a couple of times. I think it's important to stick with what the judges are working from insofar as possible. As we have seen, press/media reports contain some discrepancies. Note that this is an excerpt from that report. The translation is "word for word" but is at least understandable."
I agree, therefore this is the report we have to treat with the most authority.
"Your observation about the lamp is really interesting. When was it moved from AK's room to the victim's? Perhaps the roommates will be or have been questioned about that. People who share a flat are not unknown to share/trade stuff. Again, I think this is worth pursuing."
For myself, I can think of any reason 'why' Meredith 'would' have placed the lamps so...or needed to borrow another. What would have been wrong with just one lamp? What purpose would have required two? Why would she have just left them there? The one by the head of the bed would have taken just a moment to lift and put back on the side. The other just a minute to unplug and take back into AK's room...but this wasn't done. But you are are right, perhaps the testimony of the housemates could shed some light on it, no pun intended.
Michael and Love Wolf,
I expect the roommate's testimony about the relationships will emerge in due time.
From Amanda's myspace diary, it sounds as if she moved into the flat before Meredith, so I'm not sure, LW, that your comment about the place being happy until AK arrived has a factual basis.
DLW,
I think finding out when various people were expected back could be very important. Laura went to visit her family, right? I have read that Filomena was with her boyfriend. Does this mean they went together to his family's home or that they stayed in town? I am assuming Filomena's employer had decided to "faire le pont," as we say in French, meaning make a long weekend "bridge" from the Nov 1 holiday to Monday. Otherwise, she would have been working on Friday. Right?
I think we can also rule out MK taking Amanda's lamp because her own wasn't working. Otherwise, she simply would have replaced her own lamp with Amanda's and put her own 'out the way' somewhere. The power lead from MK's lamp going out into the corridor is hardly 'out the way' and since this was to plug it into the power socket in the corridor... shows the lamp was also working.
All,
I would be VERY interested if Filomena had told AK and Meredith that she was not coming home that evening and 'staying out' I am fairly sure that she would have done as the girls would see safety knowing where each other were
This is how AK would have been confident that no one would have been back early until the following day....
I will check that other source I think it was blogvilla skep but not sure where they got the wording from... it was a google search
Best regards
I think also we can work out the order in which the lamps were placed.
Firstly, MK's lamp was unplugged from its place by the head of her bed and moved to the foot of the bed and plugged in from the corridor. At some point it was decided this was not enough and Amanda's lamp was fetched and plugged in where MK's lamp normally resided except the lamp was placed on the floor rather then the side.
This actually tells us certain things and raises some questions.
MK's lamp being moved to the foot of the bed area shows that the primary area required for more light was the area just to the right at the foot of the bed. It shows the placing of the second was not ideal...but had to do where it was, although I feel it would have been extended out further from where it sits in the photo, as far as the power cord would have allowed then moved back later. The same for the lamp behind the door, although the door would have needed to have been closed.
Both these lights being where they were emphasises that whatever required lighting was 'that side' of the room, as surely there would have been another powerpoint on the other side of the room somewhere if it was needed. Although we cannot exclude a lamp being plugged in on the other side of the room and being moved over later.
Therefore, the area being cleaned/examined was that underneath where Meredith was found and that area bellow where her feet lay, the area the clothes are scattered.
Kermit, Love Wolf,
This is from RS's Diary
Nov 20 2007
(Raffaele opens the page diary on November 20 with a conviction for
him decisive) today finally they have taken the real murderer of this
story from beyond belief. It is an Ivorian of 22 years, they have
found him in Germany. Papa I saw happy and smiling, but I for the
moment am not calm 100% because I fear that he will invent strange
things.
Interesting statement by RS
Kermit,
Your sleuthing is impeccable, as usual.
Were there any reports on how much weed was found in the boys flat in the lower level of the cottage?
abdar | 02.19.08 - 2:16 am |
I wouldn't get too worked up about this.
I don't believe that the boys or Amanda or Rudy Guede or Raffaele Sollecito were doing anything that unusual for students or other people of their age with regard to the cannabis.
It's so widely available it's almost par for the course for any 20 year something, but the media will forget their own youth when in search of a story.
I don't for a minute believe that Amanda owed much money for her smoking.
The problem I have is that I don't for a minute believe that smoking weed would make her "forget". Ask anyone who has indulged. Ask Amanda.
abdar
Sorry, I left this off.
I would be much more worried about which drugs she may have taken apart from cannabis.
Every drug has it's own effect.
I'm 58 but I'm not ashamed to admit that in my youth I had one or two blank spots caused by alcohol. Remember your 21st or graduation party. Varients of speed/acid can also cause confusion when trying to recall events.
Don't take my word for it. If you don't know these things yourself, ask an expert.
Brian,
I don't remember my 21st because I was in the Military (Military Police/CID)....having said that, I don't remember much from my first night on pass.... Would you consider that the same....hehehe
Michael(UK)
RG has said that the sexual contact that he had with Meredith Kercher was consensual. The sexual stimulation began in a certain area. Meredith lost her life by a knife. This was a crime of intimidation. Several people here, like JohnT I believe have explained the theory about the use of the knife the other day. RG is lying when he says that the sex was consensual. Meredith arrived home at around 9:15 pm, I think it can be safely said. The pathologist puts her death between 10:00 pm and 12:00 am. Assuming that it took about 35 minutes to 1 hour for her to painfully die, that would put the initial blow to her neck sometime between 10:30 and 11:00. There is absolutely no evidence put forward that Meredith even remotely knew RG. So I do not believe for one moment that she came home to begin night of passion with RG. This was a crime of intimidation with sex as the motivating factor.
Traduco | 02.19.08 - 11:04 am wrote:
"Love Wolf: First, let me comment that your this new moniker of yours continues to make me laugh! I love it--it's just priceless"
Next, put a comma after "Love"
OK
:o)
Amanda is not going anywhere....no move planned.
Adbar,
It's a shame about all the wasted newsprint. Maybe Magnini is looking for leaks.
Abdar,
The way it is going no move is planned for next 25 years.....
I think it goes to the weekend tabloid update frenzie! I was amazed at how so many here on this blog ran with it.
The other 2 were moved....but not Amanda.
Hey, since everyone was saying the move indicated that she should prepare for a long stay....maybe her not being moved means she should prepare for a short stay......not really, I am just glad they will keep her in Perugia....I didn't like what I heard about the other place.
Ok Lovie....whatever gets your endangered species excited.
Abdar,
Perhaps she was not moved because she is the 'special one' and the other inmates would miss her wonderful singing too much... and thought she was singing 'let me stay' instead of 'let it be' who knows....
If she did commit the murder then I have no kind thoughts about how nice her cell or prison is... far from my thoughts...
I just realized that Love Wolf was our very own Ace Ventura Pet Detective! When you are able to resolve Red Riding Hood it will be at that time that I might take you seriously.
Pleased to see that you consider this all one big joke....
I am sure that there are blogs that can cater for someone as sharp and witty as you
Sleep well....
Well Love Wolf, you are such a hypocrite. You taunt people with your little witty remarks....cute...hahaha....you try to make a joke out of this crime with your inability to make any sense of it. It reminds me of a story I once heard.....Of course the names have been changed to protect the innocent....but I think you will love being a star in this one:
It goes:
Little Red Riding Hood is skipping down the road when she sees Big Bad Love Wolf crouched down behind a log. "My big eyes you have, Love Wolf," says Little Red Riding Hood. Love wolf jumps up and runs away!!! Further down the road Little Red Riding Hood sees Love Wolf again. This time Love Wolf is crouched behind a tree stump. "My big ears you have Love Wolf," says Little Red Riding Hood. Again Love Wolf jumps up and runs away. About 2 miles down the road Little Red Riding Hood sees Love Wolf again, this time crouched down behind a road sign. "My big teeth you have Love Wolf," taunts Little Red Riding Hood. With that Big Bad Love Wolf jumps up and screams... "Will you friggin' leave me alone??? I'm trying to take a S#!T!"
So from now on when I read your taunts, I am just going to picture you trying to draw my attention away from you being crouched down behind a road sign!
Abdar ... do you know of any specific date of interest before the April 1 review hearing?
Kermit,
Thank you for bringing this blog back to earth!
Not a specific date.
Kermit,
Could you give me an update on the movement of the three persons currently in custody? Which of them have been moved and to where and what were, if any, the reasons for the move?
Hi Abdar,
Thanks for correcting the erroneous information about the move. To tell you the truth, I wasn't even sure--if it was true--why it would be such a big deal. It seems that the temptation is strong to read too much into everything. In France, for example, people in custody are moved all the time, for administrative or organizational reasons. It is too bad that the wrongly reported information was immediately interpreted as a sign of guilt--charges haven't even been filed yet!
Also, it occurs to me that given the amount of coverage this case has generated so far, so much of it focused on Amanda Knox, it would have been silly to move her. It would have just created a huge stir for nothing. In fact, even the rumor of a move created a medium size stir for a couple of days.
bpcl | 02.19.08 - 4:41 pm |
My news is your news: I just took a look at the Italian Google news and there's nothing there.
I'm sure that Abdar's information regarding Amanda's (or the others) location is more up-to-date than the wire services.
I would agree with Skep, that there are many reasons for moving people around prisons, from space issues, to administrative issues, to media-circus issues (every time Dr. S. goes in and out of Capanne, there's a scrum, maybe the prison warden would prefer that to take place somewhere else).
--- Abdar! Can I ask why you asked about weed downstairs? Ref. possible robbery motives?
Here I go again, Abdar ... Amanda's legal team are the lawyers she had from day 1 (ie. Nov. 6?). Or were they not retained (you know what I mean) until Amanda's parents got over?
The only reason I ask is to understand if any initial statements (the hand written note from the 6th or 7th) or other post-arrest acts by Amanda were done within the overall strategy of the lawyers that she is with at the moment. (Or other acts/activities further along the way, like keeping the diary which was seized).
-
Abdar,
Are you saying that both RS and RG have been moved to different places and if so, do you have any information where and why?
Looks like the civility tracks have been jumped here. Everyone calm down or I'll delete the entry and not give anyone the link to this discussion.
I realize that posters here tend to be strongly suspicious of all the currently incarcerated players in this case, and with mostly good reason.
That said, I really don't like the hyper-suspicious and dismissive way you've dealt with other posters who have come here with a different view. I'd really like paranoid talk of "PR people" and what-not to cease (admittedly, there has been little of that in this particular open thread). Seems to me that the bizarrely corporate nature of the Madeleine McCann mystery has infected some of you veteran crime watchers with a certain paranoia.
To put it succinctly: I'm still suspicious of the people in jail re: this case, too. I know the Italians have a lot of issues with corruption, etc in their govt. and law enforcement, but there has to be some sort of "there" there for Amanda, Raffaele, and Rudy to still be behind bars.
BUT -- I am asking others posting here to either take a new approach to those who may not see eye-to-eye with them or cease making comments. I know that hiding behind screen names makes most of you more feisty than you might be in real-world conversation, but be an adult and try to imagine yourself actually looking that other person in the eye. I think you might change your rhetoric immediately if you did so.
EVERYONE -- know what you're getting into if you post here. If you think you're gonna get into it with someone to the point of acid sarcasm and insults, don't post. Go away and cool off, at the very least. I've got blood pressure issues as it is, so everbody give me a bit of a break and try to play at least a little nice.
Thank you,
Steve
RG and RS have been moved....that's all I know.
Abdar: Did Amanda's team have any reaction to the RS team's "barrel-throwing" (my bad translation) / accusing of RHG to be the owner of the shoeprint. (I imagine they were above the fray, but just in case ...)
-
Kermit,
All I can say about her statements is that she had no representation by anyone when that took place.
As for the weed, I better not talk about that anymore until I see if more was said about any (if any) was found (vie public record). If anyone can find anything I would be curious.
As for the weekend info....as usual the tabs like to get the excitement generated (apparently on Sundays). It seems that Sunday is the Day that many of the unusual leaks come out. They tend to make the story larger than it needs to be and then got everyone here all excited. Then on Monday and Tuesday....lots of sales...
As for when I get sarcastic. I reserve myself until people jab at me because my beliefs may be different than yours. That is my right....to continue to say that I find this entire situation funny or humorous is way off base.
As for my beliefs, I don't recall that I have ever come out and stated how I feel either way. I have just replied and pondered on relevant facts (true facts not mixed information).
When you all find out that Amanda has not been moved.....maybe you will start to believe that some of us just have more confidence in what we are told by people we believe in...
bpcl -
I never for a moment in this case ever believed that Meredith ever willingly went with Guede. The reason for my post was because I have seen some lately have been ready to perhaps consider the possibility. My post was meant to further rule the idea out.
Abdar, thanks for the replies. We'll look for public record references to weed downstairs.
Ref. that flat, we saw a single (I think single) newspaper reference to the blood on the wall downstairs being animal blood, perhaps specifically Giacomo's (sp?) cat's. Can you say anything about that? Is the cat alive?
-
Anything found in the closet in the downstairs flat?
GROUP work & personal stuff have kept me away and will do so {Drat!}. Haven't even been able to scan. {Double drat!} PLEASE keep up general civility. {Double crikey!! Steve beat me to it!! Ah, well} We all know this story has a long way to go.
As Middie used to say
Ciao
.
Abdar re Downstairs closet:
IF something WAS found in that place, ILE did not/has not leaked it to anyone. IF something WAS found, ILE is either holding it close or doesn't think its relevant. Its the job of the defense team to, when it sees the evidence, disabuse them of a notion of irrelevancy. Its what a good defense tema should be doing right now.
So, what was found (if any thing) in the closet, do you THINK? Was it bigger than a bread-basket or smaller? Was it once live and now inanimate or always inanimate?
(I knew there'd be something to add.)
No ciao this time.
If it was a once animate object, now dead, and that used to purr (this sort of speculation is how rumours start), maybe that's an added factor to the laughed at voodoo / satanical / manga angle.
-
bpcl -
I never for a moment in this case ever believed that Meredith ever willingly went with Guede. The reason for my post was because I have seen some lately have been ready to perhaps consider the possibility. My post was meant to further rule the idea out.
Michael (UK) | 02.19.08 - 5:27 pm | #
Sorry guys, but it's still on the table for me. It doesn't mean I believe it, but it does mean I can't rule it out.
First, remember that whatever you think about Rudy, there seem to be a lot of local people who had a different idea. MK wouldn't have known about RG's small police record, and since other students have said he wasn't a drug dealer, MK, probably saw him the same way, if she knew him.
Second, sorry, I don't have the reference for it, but it was reported that MK told a girlfriend that Giacomo was an "unreliable boyfriend."
Third, Giacomo said that his relationship with MK was not exclusive.
Fourth, the wine MK consumed may have put her in an a more off-guard, easy-going mood.
Fifth, signs of petting do not necessarily indicate that both parties were keen on intercourse. The "no condom" situation described by RG, could also be a relief for a young woman who may allow a little kissing and touching, but not want much more.
Sixth, I hate to say this but I know some of you are going to jump on me for what's written above. The finger evidence, if it were part of what started out as consensual affection could have been executed very quickly, as the next move, and could have been the one that made her so "no" finally.
Seventh, the fact that Rudy's statement that he arrived at 8:38, with MK, doesn't match MK's friends' statement leading to the belief she arrived at home at around 9:00, does not rule out consensual petting. It rules out that they arrived at the cottage together. RG might have another reason for lying about how he arrived at the cottage, which is that if he told the truth, he'd have to mention Amanda, or Amanda and RS. He's avoided saying he was with them so far.
So, imagine the little "party" is RS, RG, and AK hanging out at the house together. Then MK comes home and at first things are cordial. The wine and food consumed by MK doesn't necessarily support this, but it can.
Bpcl, this scenario might be difficult to accept, but I can't rule it out, just like I can't rule out scenarios that are much more damaging to all parties. I'm keeping an open mind. And I don't think this scenario tarnishes MK's image at all. It's just a possibility and if it were true, personally I don't think it says anything bad about her. She was a very young woman learning about life.
Anything found in the closet in the downstairs flat?
Abdar | 02.19.08 - 5:44 pm |
I've not seen any reference to this. What about you?
Sparrow -
"Second, sorry, I don't have the reference for it, but it was reported that MK told a girlfriend that Giacomo was an "unreliable boyfriend."
Third, Giacomo said that his relationship with MK was not exclusive."
There is a difference between thinking your boyfriend a tad unreliable and then getting it on with Guede. Giacomo may have said that as far as he was concerned they were not exclusive...but Meredith probably had other ideas...I can't see her accepting him being non-exclusive.
Now, if she was getting it on with Guede she kept it so quiet as to not even mention it to her girlfriends, girls who she felt she could talk about her love life to. Now, for me, even if there was a small chance she would have gone with someone like Guede...a shy and private girl like Meredith was never going to do so in her house where any of her housemates may come home and find her with him...especially as it was a guy she should not have been with, already having a boyfriend that all the housemates knew about.
I have to ask....many have basically said about whatever they want about Amanda and her personality ect...ect. Why should any of you be afraid to "tarnish" MK? Yes, she is the victim here but it by know means that because you are the victim that you didn't have other things going on in regards to her lifestyle.
Sparrow....I think I won't say anything else about that for now....I need to confirm something first before I mention that evidence.
Thanks, Sparrow, for that clear post. I think it is safe to say that there is more that we don't know than that we do know at this time.
I have something to say about the presence of a lawyer during the questioning that began on Nov 5 and ended on Nov 6. I hope I don't get jumped all over, merely because it doesn't advance the discussion at all, and I hope someone out there can enlighten me on this point.
From everything that I have read about Italian criminal procedure, in particular since the reforms of recent years, an "informed person" being questioned by the police would not have a lawyer present. I believe such a person could opt not to cooperate or answere questions (?), but would probably feel that it is not in their interest not to do so. In Italian law, one has the right to a lawyer from the moment one is officially considered to be a suspect. In the official judge's statement, we read this:
"It was in this moment that Knox Amanda and Sollecito Raffaele lost the appearance that they were persons informed about the facts and became suspects themselves."
This moment means after Raffaele had been questioned and after Amanda Knox "confessed."
I would imagine that the prosecution is going to argue that these statements be admitted, and I am wondering how the defense can argue against their admissibility under Italian law.
It was claimed that no interpreter was present, then later by Edda Mellas on television that an interpreter was partially present, and then by cnn (in response to this very claim) that according to police an interpreter was present throughout.
So to me it looks like an interpreter WAS present and that a lawyer's presence was not required until they became suspects.
Aside from whether or not this is "right" in terms of how it feels to us, I'd like to have input on this point from anyone who knows anything about this.
Do you think the admissibility of these statements will be a bone of contenti